Is this the only Competitive game that actually requires skill that isn't COMPLETELY dead yet?
"But anon, it's completely dead you fucking idiot"
>The DH tournament recentely reached 40-50K so it's not dead yet
>>318153176
What is GT6 or PCars?
fighting games still exist
>>318155156
>friend said that RTS games are more skill-demanding than fighting games
>only RTS he played was SC2 and he was plat in WoL
>doesn't know what input motions are e.g. quarter-circles, shoryukens, doesn't know any combos, doesn't know what a neutral game or footsies is
>only fighting game he ever played was smash and naruto ultimate ninja storm
>played protoss in sc2 and literally only did 4gates or colossus deathballs
You forgot about Dota 2
>>318153176
>> skill
You mean copy pasted sequences right?
>>318156880
you can say the same about muh fightan
>>318156704
Even lowest level of SC2 requires more skill than fighting games.
>>318156994
>>318157068
http://www.sc2builds.com/
Melee's more alive than ever, baby
>>318153176
Laugh at me /v/
>>318157213
4Head EleGiggle SoBayed MingLee
>>318153176
In fact its so competitive based that is boring as hell to play
>>318157412
Cuz u can not win?... :v
SC2 is the most competetive game.
RTS requires micro/macro skills, but once you completely master that, a machine could win in that game. No mind games/creativity needed, only superior micro/macro wins games.
FPS requires lightning fast eye-hand coordination skills and reflexes.
Fighting games requires mastery of several characters, footsies, mind games, etc.
MOBAs required teamwork (and usually a handful of RNG luck)
What else?
Fightan seems to require the most out of a player in order to master it.
>>318158491
I believe Q3 is the pinnacle of individual skill based competitive games. The duels between pros are fucking beautiful.
That being said, fighting games are the only thing that's remotely popular and requires skill. There is a lot of skill involved in Doto too but it's more about teamplay still.
>>318158491
Formatted like a troll post, but it checks out.
>>318158491
but when everyone has amazing micro and macro, the game becomes so much more complex
>>318157412
I feel like Blizzard chained themselves far too much to the competitive scene. It caused them to be super fucking conservative with the unit and gameplay designs, and also made them ad weird as fuck and contrived mechanics like the macro bullshit.
The units added in Lotv are surprisingly fun though. Especially the disruptors and ravagers, seeing how they require intensive micro from both parties, instead of just A moving blobs of units around like HotS and WoL worked. Nothing feels better than blowing up a bunch of marines&marauders with a well timed disruptor shot.
>>318158031
Yeah, cuz win is the fun part
tha 99% of the matches are just macro skill based
>>318159802
Why not skip the macro then? Keep just the fun part
>>318161096
Macro is fun tho. Micro is a pretty big deal now in lotv aswell.
>>318157175
no online
>>318161096
because the high level 'mind games' are an extension of the game micro/macro. you dont get any good low skill games with lots of depth because there's no components to develop it from
>>318162261
plenty of people play netplay
>>318158491
Mobas require very good spacing and impeccable map awareness It's not the most input heavy or technical of genres but strategy and correct hero picks are incredibly important. If it was so easy more people would be 5K plus in DOTA 2.
Every multiplayer game requires skill retard. And there are tons of games where you can find matches whenever you want to. You're just beelining towards marketed "e-sports" that have lots of Twitch viewers. All of which are fairly shallow games in their genre, or just bad genres like ASSFAGGOTS. Because you're a plebeian.
>>318163797
TSGs
>>318153176
>StarCraft 2
>not COMPLETELY dead
say wat, nigga?!
ded gaem
DED GAEM
Fighting games are the only skill based games. Its a shame their competitive scene is so poverty tier.
>>318156704
inputs are easier to acquire than APM
footsies/neutral game are the same as positioning in every game involving tactics
starcraft features far larger environments than fighting games and therefore positioning is much more developed
plus no one is gonna pummel you in starcraft while you're not able to do anything so can't see how lack of 'combos' is a bad thing
personally i hate both genres
One of my biggest issues with SC2 is how the Zerg were designed.
I feel like Blizzzard missed the chance of further developing the core aspects of SC1 and BW zerg, and instead just created a hodgepodge of units that barely fit together as a cohesive force.
If I would redesign the Zerg, I'd do as follows:
>Focus more on the whole "advanced units morph from basic ones" thing. In fact, I would make all the combat units, outside of the Ultralisk, be morphs of the basic 3 combat units (that are the Zergling, Hydralisk, and the Mutalisk), with caster & support units morphing directly from larva.
>Rework the Queen to be more of an army support unit, instead of a fucker that sits at your base that you gotta click ever 30 seconds.
>Further focus on mobility, spreading creep, and turning the map against the opponent via it.
Regarding the first point, I'd scrap the roach, and replace it with a relatively tough, quickly regenerating morph of the Zergling, (that would be slower than lings of course), whose role would be basically the same; being meat shields for other zerg units. The basic Zergling would retain it's scout, fast assault and harassment roles and I'd keep the banelling pretty much as it is.
I'd make the Hydralisk the core t 1.5 ranged combat unit of the Zerg again by making it a bit less of a glass cannon. As for it's morphs, I'd keep the Lurker, and I would also ad a new unit, that would epitomize the burrowed moving thing (right now, roach is in a weird spot of being both a tanky, and also being an unit that is supposed to sneak around by moving under ground)
This unit would actually be faster under ground, than it is above it, and give it the ability to violently burst out of ground doing damage to any units who are close to it as it emerges. Attack wise, I'd give it a short ranged, splash damage ranged attack. You'd use the burrowed movement of this unit to close in with enemy formations/worker lines and burst out of ground in order to start dealing damage.
>gookclick takes skill
haha if you mean drilling the same build order 5000 times so you can do it as fast as gooks then ok
>>318158491
the micromangement problem is np-hard, computers can't come up with a solution in real time for 200/200 battles
the most successful starcraft AI only uses mutalisks because the lack of collision means the AI can reduce how it views the strength of its army as if it was a single unit
superior micro is basically incalculable and yet some people are still better at it than others
>>318166034
As for flyers, I'd keep mutalisk basically the same as it is, however I'd give it back the ability to morph into more advanced flyers. I'd make the Brood Lord a mutation of the Mutalisk, and bring back the Devourer, with some changes to it that would make it more interesting (for example, it could get the ability to bombard ground locations with acid spores sorta like the Ravagers now have.)
I'd scrap the corruptor, at least as it is in it's current form as it is boring as fuck (the model is pretty sweet though). The Viper is pretty sweet unit as it is, so I don't really think it would need to be changed at all.
Finally, I'd bring scourges back, as they were pretty much perfectly designed units, and fit the Zerg exceptionally well, and they resulted in super intense gameplay. I will never understand why Blizzard removed them.
Regarding the rest of the ground based units, I'd keep the Ultralisk as it is, but I would merge the Swarm Host and the Infestor. The Swarm Host as it is, is a boring as fuck unit that fails to fill any real role, and same goes largely to the infestor. I'd remove the Infestor's spawn marines and neural parasite abilities, and instead give it the ability to spawn a swarm of locusts, and also cast an AOE spell, that would cause any unit that dies within it's area of effect during it's duration, to spawn short lived broodlings. I'd keep the fungal growth and moving underground abilities on it though.
>>318166245
I'd rework the queen so that she would be less of a base nanny and more of a combat support unit, in the following ways. First off, in order to spawn larvae, she would need to "nest" on any location with creep. Doing it would make her immobile, but would allow her to start spawning larvae around herself very rapidly at the cost of energy. This way, you'd be able to make proxy production centers with queens. In addition, I'd change her healing spell to be small AOE, and instead of flat out healing, make it simply super charge the regeneration of zerg units and structures for a period of time. That way, the units could rapidly heal even in combat. I'd also give her the ability to lay clutches of "eggs" on the creep that would spawn a short lived swarm of flying bugs if an enemy came too close to them. I'd keep the creep tumor ability as it is.
I would however, make the creep even more active entity in the Zerg gameplay, via giving the creep tumors themselves the ability to morph further, via small resource costs. These morphs would give the creep various qualities in an area around the tumor, for example, cause the creep to slow down enemy movement, or maybe even emit vision blocking smog, thus making advancing into Zerg territory even more hazardous venture for hostiles.
My goal with these changes, would be to make the Zerg feel more like an evolution of the BW Zerg, instead of a weird, bastardized version that the current Zerg feel to me. Of course, this ultimately just boils down to opinions, but in my opinion, these changes would result in both far more interesting, and far more zergy gameplay, than what we currently have.
>>318158491
>and usually a handful of RNG luck
How to spot a 2k
>>318164819
Have you ever played Candyland
>>318166675
You got me. I was exaggerating that every multiplayer game requires skill. Just the vast majority of them.
>>318166034
>>318166245
>>318166354
>What I'd do is make the Zerg really OP
Every race has units to fast win in SC2, if u dont have skills, u should probably lose in a sec.
>>318158491
> but once you completely master that, a machine could win in that game.
That's complete nonsense, a machine can play better every single game in existence that doesn't rely entirely of luck, if you can build/code one.
>>318166034
Also, to specify, the burrowed mover would be a morph of the Hydralisk, and it would be able to move up and down cliffs via it's burrowed movement. I feel that for the zerg to completely lack that ability, is really weird.
The burst out of ground thing would be sorta replacement for the ravagers bile bombardment, in the way that it would give the opposing player few seconds to split up his forces from the area, before the thing emerges, and thus avoid the damage it would do. As its' attack would be rather short ranged, and it would move slower above ground than under it, successfully dodging the burst would allow avoid damage all together, should his micro be good enough.
As for appearances, thing something like pic related.
>>318166907
How would these changes be inherently OP? They would simply result in different gameplay for the zerg, that would imo be more fitting to them and more importantly, entertaining, than the gameplay they currently have in SC2. The balance would be achieved via tweaking the numbers.
>>318166034
My only issue with this game is that everything dies in seconds, it's too fast.
The game is more enjoyable and similar to SC1 in fast mode from the tutorial, not fastest which is the default one.
>>318167728
For some reason Blizzard thinks moar speed=more competitive, when in reality it results in matches becoming massive clusterfucks where forces die in 2 seconds, before either player (unless they are autistic koreans) knows wtf happened.
>>318153176
Dota 2
>>318167873
More speed?, in Legacy of the Void u start with 13 workers, in fact, the harassment it's early.
Who complain about this are those who can not win.
>>318166245
Why does the Devourer's tail look like a weird dick in that picture?
>>318168364
12 actually.
And if anything, that results in even faster games. Though I do like the faster start to the games in themselves, I just feel that the units are in general too frail as they die in just few seconds, and the maps are also way too small, which means that if you suffer a major defeat in combat, it takes only few moments for the enemy force to march straight into your base and fuck shit up.
I think that the maps should be big enough so that unless your army was destroyed right at your doorstep, you still should have enough time to at least produce some units to defend yourself before your foe is at your door.
As it is however, unless you play the zerg, if you ever lose significant amount of units in an engagement, even if it is on the other side of the map, the enemy can get to your base before you can even make replacements, which is lame as fuck imo.
Brood war still exists and is getting a resurge in korea right now.
Fighting games also still exists. They always were a niche genre so they are not declining.
But yeah, most of espurts is about LoL, Dota and Hearthstone now. What a shame.
>>318158491
The thing is that no RTS player will ever acheive even remotely perfect micro. To micro each unit is impossible, no human can move even a tenth of that speed. Maybe in WC3 some fast players can move every single unit and command them, but no way in SC2, there's way too goddamn many.
>>318161096
That would be viable if they had BW levels of micro.
Also, some people enjoy macro style play more than micro.
When I play my friend in BW he'll focus on setting up bases and just a-moving dudes, while I focus on micro plays more. Amazing how that shit works in that game. Doesn't work in SC2 with its complete lack of micro (minus clutch do 10 things at once big fight micro).
>>318168818
>I just feel that the units are in general too frail as they die in just few seconds
This is why I stopped playing SC2 so quickly. In WC3 the battles were long and epic, and clever use of abilities and spells could turn the tide, especially against players with shitty micro. In SC2 everything kills everything in seconds that 99/100 times it's "bigger force wins" unless you have Korean level micro. I've taken on two armies at once in WC3 with my little group of Horde or Alliance units and destroyed them because I positioned units properly, took out key targets, used spellcasters to the best of their abilities, knew how to actually use heroes, etc.
>>318168835
The most important part of a game being able to be competitive is that you are able to get better at the game over someone else. This is true even for shitty hearthstone rng.
Second most important part is populism. You need a giant ass fan base. Drop dead skill level entry makes for a huge deal here. CSGO's low level where its literally move mouse and click. Moba's 1 character management.
And the last most important part is having good company support. Blizzard fucking sucks ass at supporting esports. LoL and Dota are killing that shit.
Too bad the only esport I've ever enjoyed watching is BW.
>>318169141
The best phase of the game is the early game imo, where units don't yet instantly start melting when they engage enemies. However, as the game moves to mid and late game, even supposedly "tough" units die in seconds to the deathblobs that roam the map.
>>318169141
AoE 2 has the best lethality levels of the classic RTS genres to speak honestly
>>318169658
>genres
I meant franchises
>>318158491
So far bots are really shit at Starcraft, even since the more popular BW days of coding ai's.
Its the decision making that is killing bots, not the macro or micro. Bots don't know how to into meta, scouting enemy builds, matchup knowledge, and playing the player.
Any decent player right now can game the shit out of any current bot.
Its much easier to code a bot to instantly headshot someone before a human can react.
Give some unpredictablity for when a bot pushes or plays in csgo, and cheesing them with flashes and shit would be much harder. They'd never lose any duels.
>>318169141
My micro in SC2 is good, but my macro is shit, but I win anyway, the truth is that you need a lot of practice, I play SC since BW, that is why few are those who keep playing.
>>318155156
which ones? tr4sh? no
>>318165454
dont talk about games you suck at
>>318169658
BW has the best combat out of any rts in my opinnion.
You can skirmish with a high degree of skill, finnesse, and mind games.
Big fights feel like giant clashes, with flanks mattering a shit ton. So many layers to each fight, like mutas going in to snipe HT's, dragoons skirmishing spiders mines protecting siege tanks before a giant attack. Its definently twitch rts but yet feels like it has elements of a rome total war game, with flanks mattering a huge deal. But fog of war is even bigger, you need to probe and prod an enemeys formation.
Too bad you have to master macro'ing like an autist to get to that point.
>>318169847
The problem with RTS AI lies elsewhere.
In order for it to be effective, it needs to eat up a lot of CPU power.
The more it eats up, the less of it can be used in the actual game.
That's a bit of a problem in a game where you have A LOT of units and elements interacting all at once, being issued for rendering, et cetera.
>>318170196
yeah I never played BW honestly
never played SC2 either but it has pretty blatant hyperlethality
>>318169448
>Second most important part is populism.
This is where you went wrong. Population only matters insofar as being able to find games whenever you happen to look for them.
>>318170476
I highly recommend trying out getting through BW's campaign. Its archaic, but well worth it.
SC2's pathfinding treats units like a school of fish. Colossus stand on top of armies. Unit ranges are generally increased from BW.
The result is that you get two giant blobs with long range; both armies are able to attack each other with all weapons to bear almost immediately upon contact. Pure alpha damage for every fight except for melee units.
In BW if you just mass attack with your entire army, they'll form a sort of arrow formation pointing towards the enemy, which is less than ideal. You are giving them a concave formation vs you. Instead players skirmish and maneuver to get a better full engagement during the bigger fights.
But most important they take up space and don't shoot at insane ranges. It takes time for armies to kill each other.
>>318169141
Same.
It is super frustrating to see your forces melt away in 2 seconds, with you being basically unable to do shit against it.
That's why I hate playing against Terrans so much.
Their units can do obscene amount of damage, and if they got the right unit composition (muhreens, marauders, medivacs, supported via few tanks and ravens for example), they are nearly fucking unstoppable unless the player playing them does a mistake.
At least with the Zerg and the Protoss there are clear weaknesses to both forces (short ranged attacks, and weak units in general for the zerg, expensive units and relatively low DPS to the protoss), but Terrans just shit all over that. I guess their weakness could be counted as being super positional, but being able to take a good position is pretty fucking easy for Terrans. You basically always need to be ahead in bases if you play as either protoss or the Zerg when facing Terrans, because cost for cost, Terrans have easily the most efficient units.
Masses of marines, marauders and medivacs basically counter 3 out 5 Protoss gateway units (DTs and HTs get countered by detectors or ghosts mixed in with the 3 Ms respectively) , and nearly all Zerg land units outside maybe the Ultralisk, so for terrans, the matter is simply just adding a bit of support units like vikings, tanks, and ravens to the mix, in order to create a "fuck your shit up" force that will easily roll over any opposition.
God damn I hate medivacs. They are one of the core reasons why fighting against Terrans is such bullshit.
>>318166108
the micro AI for automaton 2000 was insane, and that was in 2011
i don't know if the guy ever kept up with the project, but
>splitting entire packs of lings predicting tank shots to avoid splash
>killing 100 banelings with 20 marines
>>318157160
Thats like saying "You just need to spam shoryuken and you will win"
The game is about adapting to what your opponent does + mechnical skill of reacting fast enough to it.
>>318171717
That was built in the editor. Not really a true ai playing the game. It uses game knowledge a player won't have. A true ai playing the game won't have direct access to what unit is targetted, only that a siege tank is looking directly at 30 lings all in a line.
>>318171702
SC2 marine blobs move like a primitive fluid simulation, it's fucking unreal. A siege tank can drive right through it and it's like a boulder in a river, absolutely ridiculous.
>>318173330
Yeah, it looks fucking weird.
It is insane how Terrans are pretty much the most mobile and versatile army in SC2 due to the sheer utility and power of the Marine, Marauder and Medivac combination, when it was pretty much the opposite in BW.
I think that Marauders and Medivacs are both inherently flawed units, that have caused the Terran gameplay to become so fucking alien in comparison to BW. Medivacs especially.
