So how do we fix the MMO genre?
Throw it in the trash
>>341646331
Start being original, abandon infinite grind shit
actually innovate, don't be another fucking wow clone
The only real MMO I've played that didn't follow this awful formula is EVE online
>>341646331
Come up with something original. For example, maybe abandon the idea of every zone being massive. Instead, have certain hubs and PvP areas support larger numbers of players, and have those areas actually matter. The rest of the content can be for small to medium sized groups and thus have more complex mechanics that couldn't be realized with hundreds of people in one area. Alternatively, create a game where combat isn't the end all be all, and not every character is the chosen one, similar to how Star Wars Galaxies had merchant players and limited the Jedi class. Hire people or recruit active players from the community to act as the dungeon masters of the world, and create dynamic content that makes the world feel more alive.
Those are just a few ideas, and obviously not very well thought out ones, but MMOs need to ditch the WoW clone mentality. Also, this is somewhat of a tangent, but for the love of god can MMO developers please hire someone who knows how to design a user interface. Every MMO seems like a clusterfuck on screen.
Take the best elements of past MMOs (open exploration, open world PvP, finding quests and events through exploration, user generated content, chat options) and remove the bad elements (gear based progression, focus on story, arena PvP, set content). Then modify the few things left to be better (raids, crafting and combat).
Or another alternative would be to make a game like RO or Star Wars Galaxies. But with better combat and more things to find on the overworld. A sandbox instead of a themepark.
>>341646331
You don't, because you can't.
>playing Eve today
>join a gang roam of ~25 people from my alliance
>head about 15 jumps away and start skirmishing with another fleet as we play cat and mouse around the system
>eventually they get us pretty bad, members that were killed reform an evac fleet to get those of is who are still alive and running from the enemy back to friendly space
>guerrilla style running and fighting as the evac fleet finally reaches us and we head back home together
Sandboxes are dead they said
>>341646331
Stop making "PVP zones" and "no PVP zones"
Integrate the two
>>341646331
You used that pic on purpose did you, OP?
VR
The ideal MMO would basically be six games in one. The PvE story and end game raiding that WoW clones have could stay. But it would also have to include:
-Open world PvP
-A big enough world that you don't explore it all in 3 weeks (with actual things to do in that world)
-Crafting system
-Player community events
-Combat engine that can hold the players attention by itself
The problem is that most MMOs only try to make two or three of those six things. Because trying to go for all six would take 10+ years just to release a beta version. And all of the things an MMO should have are already done better by single player games.
>>341646331
put more emphasis on immersion. on your place within the world. remove instances completely so that you can meet people within the world again. make the game actually challenging. bring back character upkeep and resource management. don't put all of the focus on the endgame, make leveling to max level take much longer. stop making expansion packs that increase level cap because those ruin everything that the players have done before. instead expansions should be optional and offer a different way to play the game.
>>341646331
Stop making cashgrabs and stard doing quality content
it's simple, we get rid of healers.
>>341648550
this
give it time
Non of it would work and would you like to know why?
Because you can't fix MMOs without fixing the player base first.
It's the core audience that is inherently fucked and kills this genre
>>341646331
Camelot Unchained
>>341646449
Youngfag detected
>never played UO
>never played any MMO before 2004
TERA is the second best MMO available right now and is everything an MMO should be, but THIGHS make normies uncomfortable and that's usually the first thing you notice about it.
FFXIV is the best MMO out there right now but it costs real money, which puts poorfags and non-normies off. But just like with THIGHS above, it's how they make money.
MMOs in general can't really be "fixed" without alienating a portion of the population in some way. Companies need to understand that it isn't possible to appeal to literally everyone, even if that is what the investors want.
>>341650459
Fuck you, themeparks are everything wrong with MMOs
>suggests 2 themeparks
We fix it by thanking our healers.
>>341650459
>claims normies don't play his games but he posted two theme parks
lol
Make it like ESO with Dark Souls combat:^)
>>341649538
Yeah, look what happened to GW2.
The biggest problems with MMOs is that most of the people who think of the genre have only played themepark MMOs. They are casuals who do not know they are casuals, this thread is perfect evidence of that.
You cannot fix MMOs, so long as these sub 24 year old babies keep buying this garbage.
>>341650427
>tfw never played UO
Why did it all went to shit so early, /v/? All I have is screencaps of MMOs that used to be good now.
>>341648647
Basically you made a description of Black Desert Online.
>>341651632
I haven't played BDO, but I doubt it. If the game did all I just named, everyone would be obsessing over it. Most people just think its another WoW clone with a good character maker.
>>341651327
This
Remove the trinity
>>341646331
By eradicating the casuals.
>>341646331
Make sure to never try doing something like tree of savior ever again
>>341651971
How BDO can be a WoW clone if actually there aren't even raid yet? (Only in Korea with the Valencia expansion)
If BDO had stuck to its guns and been a real sandbox it would have been pretty good
But it ended up some weird sandbox/theme park hybrid that does everything poorly and nothing well
>>341651632
>BDO shill enters the thread
Thank god I skipped arche age time on /v/
>>341646331
Port over mabinogi to the star ocean V engine.
>>341653793
Oh and probably give the art direction to amano.
>>341653185
Never say that BDO is good, actually.
>>341646331
By playing them, instead of shitposting about them.
>>341653921
No thanks, Nomura is fine.
Dark Souls is almost the ideal MMO
>>341654263
and the ideal FPS. and the ideal RTS. and the ideal rhythm game
>>341646331
>>341648363
What happened to that one anon who was writing the story about not being a hero? I remember it starting off okay and then getting super edgy.
>>341654479
>can pvp and co-op at anygiven time you want and can always see other players running around as ghosts and leave messages for players all over the world to see
>there are figt clubs, duels, fighting strong bosses and monsters together, fashion, and even player trading
>not an MMO
Nice meme though
>>341648647
Oh so basically all they have to do is to get infinite infinite? Nice advice anon.
>>341654786
By that logic then FFXIV and Guild Wars are MMO's too, you memer
>>341655017
Ebin
>>341653793
Started playing Mabinogi a couple of days ago, and while i find it good and enjoyable it doesn't really feel all that special, the experience you perceive in the game is still too guided by quests and it doesn't feel like there are community events that makes that "sandbox" aspect shine, actually, i don't see that much sandbox in the game, just the quests they want you to do.
Maybe it's because i'm just starting but that's what i have seen so far.
>>341646331
Make it so you can't just min-max it with guides. Add some sort of random adventure generation so you never know what lies ahead.
>>341654253
I'm sorry you have terrible taste but
just Imagine a game where you could have a character that looked like the one on the left in a good engine.
>>341655701
That guy looks gay. And this is the third thread today where I've seen you obsessing over Amano.
>>341654774
Goddammit, I know I'm not the only one who remembers those threads.Right?
>>341656310
Not that anon but, Amano has amazing character designs.
>>341656735
Amazingly shit
>>341656310
>gay
are you 15?
Has anyone here heard about or played Riders of Icarus? I just recently saw an ad for their open beta and I really like the idea they went for, since I'm a total mount whore when I play mmo's.
>>341657252
Are you? Because that tends to be the type of people who like Final Fantasy and Vampire Hunter D.
>>341655419
It's because you're just starting.
Make everyone a healer
>>341655701
What irks me sometimes is that players don't realize that Amano has amazing talent as an artist. I've many of his artbooks. Way back in high school I was inspired to pick up making lithographs from his artwork.
Playing a game that had the aesthetics of Amano's artwork would seem to be an obvious hit but the production requirements could never be met. It's very unfortunate. I haven't read anything from the original devs between I~XI that has pointed to them wanting it as a dream project. It's a shame.
>>341659060
He'll probably die before we see such a game
>>341659060
Do you have any interview where anyone has expressed a desire to make such a project? It's better if he's still big in the industry.
>>341659060
What talent does Amano have?
>>341652786
BDO is fucking worse then a WoW clone. Not only is it a Korean grindfest but the grind is LEGIT INFINITE (any anybody who has 1-2 lvls above you or 1-2 enchant levels will literally one-shot you). All you can do in that game is grind for hours on end. (somebody calculated you need to kill shitloads of enemies for 5-8h a day to stay competitive, since you know, it's actually more profitable than crafting).
>>341661421
If you're not dedicating 5 hours +, you don't deserve to be competitive anyways
>>341661556
What's the matter? Afraid a shitter who puts in 1h a day is going to annihilate you?
All those combos are hard to learn I know. Keep on relying on your gear shitter
>>341661827
Yes, don't want no loser upping me so easily. There would be no point to this world if that could happen.
>>341646331
Have an NPC who can give you the best PVP equipment in the game for your level, no special currency required. After that all the equipment you could get from drops killing players or from special PVP stores would have the same stats, or worse but the items would look different.
>>341662607
Sounds horrid
Sell me on this
mmo genre is fine
youre just a shitter with bad taste shitting on good games
BDO , ESO, FFXIV, SWTOR all are good mmos
youre just a pleb thats gona try shitposting all of them after i mentioned them. because youre a fucking pleb
>>341662981
What makes them good?
>>341662981
>BDO
lolno
>ESO
lolno
>SWTOR
lolno
shit taste, disregarded
>>341662793
It would allow more people to get engaged in the PVP and it would put the difficulty curve the right way around giving new players training wheels while encouraging existing players to use gear that handicaps them.
No losing in PVP because you want to just play world PVP but all the gear you actually need to PVP is locked away behind stupid pointless unfun grinding in arenas.
I had the most fun in WoW doing world PVP in Vanilla and then later with the world PVP zone in Wotlk, but neither of those activities were really rewarded as the game attempted to force you into either PVE raids, or later PVP arenas.
I think the genre is fine. I think the main issue is that games dont merge servers so they can feel dead, when the community is the most important part of the game.
>>341663495
Why not just play a MOBA?
>>341663309
>little shitter pleb trying to be ashitter
you're just a cynical turd that doesnt enjoy life, all are good games
youre the samefag little shitter who cries about gaming has gone to shit and the sky is falling, because youre a depressed cynical faggot who has no joy in his life
>>341655419
Unless you don't play on Alexina or the Mari server, you should try turning on the open PvP option in the game.
More cute outifts and dresses for healers.
>>341664906
>implying I'm not olaying it for the story
Add elins
by removing the ones that think an mmo should be an rpg with a bigger map and 100 times longer to grind for xp, and think you should pay cash for fashion items.
people who grind play hack and slash, people who want to actually play multiplayer rpg want to have variety, there isn't alot of variety, so the genre appears to be dying.
switch it up and kill nexon basically.
>>341664387
Because the A in Moba stands for 'Arena'? World PVP and Battlegrounds were more fun than the Arena, Blizzard was stupid to force you into the least fun aspect of PVP for the best gear, and for basically requiring that gear to be competitive.
>>341657053
>>341656735
>>341656310
>>341655701
>>341654253
Guys, Guys!
Both Amano and Nomura are awful
>>341665494
What kind of variety?
Casuals.
I mean it.
I'll give you the perfect example.
Remember Firefall? How it was a whole bunch of meh? Well, back in the alpha/closed beta days, when the only two things to do in the world were thumping and a random tornado, the game was headed in a different direction. You could mostly only gain materials via thumping (sending down an extractor that sucks materials from the ground, but also notifies the enemy npcs or agrivates the local wildlife, depending, meaning you had to defend it), and each material had a different purpose and quality. When you went to craft something with these materials, the qualities affected different things. Material X may increase weapon reload while Y increases damage. The thing was you had to balance these things, as dumping high quality materials into everything put you with an item that took up all the power on your suit, leaving little for everything else.
This was great! I ended up crafting an incredible pair of jump jets that let me fly, jump, hover and run increadibly fast, and made a mediocre weapon to go with it. Nothing could hit me, I could explore with ease, and I had a grand ol time. I was made to make decisions based on what I wanted out of my gear, and had restrictions to work around.
On top of this, gear broke. You could prolong it somewhat, but eventually it broke. This meant people were always crafting, always selling, always thumping because there was always a demand.
The casuals ruined it. It was too much. They had to make tough decisions rather than just see higher numbers. They had to ensure their gear was up to date, and make not dying a priority if they wanted to extend their gear as long as possible. The system was gutted, and while a bandaid middleground was attempted, it failed, and the game eventually went to the one type of mineral fits all, and the higher quality the better no matter what, plus you can fit whatever you want whenever.
There's even more to it, but fuck they ruined it. Fuck casuals
>>34164633
fuck you op.
>You aren't the chosen one
>Some girl that's around 16-17 that lives in your city is
>Shes saved the small city from conquest in the past from an empire that's close by, has preformed all sorts of impressive feats, and is in command of powerful magic
>Shes famous and loved by everyone in the general area
>You're just some kid in the same age range as the chosen one that lives with his parents, kind of sheltered and you've had a less then stellar childhood
>You don't talk much, and you tend to keep to yourself
>Don't really have any friends and just trying to get by, in fact, most people don't even like you, and the Chosen One doesn't even know you exist
>You've watched for years as this girl has done things like wielding powerful magic to simple socialization with little to no effort
>Meanwhile you've struggled to preform the simplest spells for years, and you can barely preform menial tasks
>You're constantly scolded by your parents and many people in your town because of your failure
>Your parents would tell you they wish you where more like the chosen one
>One day you're out in the field trying to enjoy nature and let off some steam, one of the few things you look forward to. You don't go to far however since there are monsters around, and of course you don't know how to fight properly
>The Chosen One comes up to you along with her fairy familiar
>She asks you about the entrance to some underground ruins in the area
>Since you're quiet and shy you don't say anything, try to ignore her, and continue with what you were doing before she interrupted you with some quest you couldn't care less about
>She gets annoyed and leaves, calling you useless under her breath
>Later you go back home only for your parents to scold you because of what you did with the Chosen One earlier, apparently they heard about it
>When you go to bed that night you finally decide that you've had enough
>>341666457
>Suddenly you can barely hear what you think was a cry for help
>You continue, the voice getting louder and louder, until you come up to a well
>There's a boy about the same age as you holding on to the edge of it
>You run over to him and you help him up
>He thanks you over and over again for saving him, he doesn't seem to recognize you, so he then asks about who you are and where you're from
>You give him a vauge explaination about yourself to him
>He gets excited and asks you if you've seen the chosen one
>You see her every day, but you don't really want to think about her do you? You just shake your head
>At first he seems a bit dissapointed, but then he starts to talk about himself
>He explains that he's from a small town, and that he was out here getting water for his sick mother
>Just as he finishes you hear some noises in the bushes
>Some monsters pop out and surround the both of you
>You're both unarmed and surrounded by monsters that are ready for breakfast, you clearly didn't think this whole running away thing out
was never continued.
>>341666327
>They had to make tough decisions rather than just see higher numbers
What?
>>341662981
>FFXIV
You mean use one of the 6 or so skills to advance through the same dungeon 72billion times the game?
>>341666304
stupid things like camping, music, crafting, minigames (multiplayer ones too like bowling? or whatever.) different types of combat dungeons, or maybe a platformer one with few enemies, if you're stuck doing the same exact thing without variety, your going to get real bored.
how many can you list that do that and not just, log in, pick a character, grind ?
and getting rid of microtransaction is because most mmo's that do have this variety have it stuck behind a paywall.
>>341666681
You had to chose exactly what kind of quality went into each piece of gear you had. Sure, you could put yourself in all mid tier gear and do fine, but that was horribly sub-optimal. Playing to your own enjoyment and strengths (I'm a decent twitch shooter, so I liked going fucking fast) was a much better way to play and enjoy the game.
Compare that to most MMO's where piece of gear X has +50 strength, and Y has +60, so Y will always be better. That wasn't true in firefall.
>>341666872
That sounds almost exactly like Guild Wars 2. There's minigames all year round, crafting, tons of musical instruments, tons of guild and non-guild events/dungeons that require more than just combat, jumping puzzles and mazes, hidden secrets and shit, and while there's grind for the "best" gear, it doesn't REALLY matter if you have it or not.
Plus combats not terrible.
>>341666717
>6 or so skills
try 35
people actually don't want anymore skills because of how many we already have
>>341667175
How can it not matter to have the best gear?
>>341667270
I could use a couple more but we really need more traits than anything.
>>341667295
Because even in the hardest content, you can easily pass everything with the tier below it, which in these times is trivial to get. Or it was a few months ago, I doubt that's changed. The increase between the first and second best is like a whopping 8% or something like that, but that hardly matters when getting hit is absolutely terrible no matter your hp.
Your ability to dodge and properly use skills on the move is going to be far more impactful than any set of armor.
Combine runescape and wow. Wow combat and story telling with runescape worldly mechanics like you can cut down all the trees fish etc. game has open pvp between the two factions trying to take over cities and gain map control
Only way to fix the MMO genre is to let it die and then in a decade or two hope someone makes a new MMO that is fresh and different.
Literally the problem with MMOs is that both developers and players have the mindset that MMOs have to follow a specific formula and any deviation from this is bad. The only way to fix this mindset is a fresh start.
>>341666872
That's mabinogi.
>>341668056
>Literally the problem with MMOs is that both developers and players have the mindset that MMOs have to follow a specific formula and any deviation from this is bad
and MMOs that don't are either like Runescape in combat or just have everyone roll the most optimal dps setup with no cooperation needed
>>341667932
Why not just have one side take over and have peace?
>>341668885
MMOs basically have two formulas. Themepark and sandbox.
Both are shit.
Vindcitus style combat.
Not vindictus grind
Done
>>341646331
Stop using WoW as "inspiration"
>>341669768
>>341669056
This is the narrowmindedness of every single person developing a mmo right now.
MMO /= wow exlusively
>>341669768
yeah use this as inspiration
>>341669359
That would do better in a Diablo style game. MMOs actually need a grind or else they just fall into the same crap as Old Republic or FFXIV. You complete them in about 100 hours of set leveling content. While grinding (and good class options) would allow for thousands or even infinite hours of gameplay.
>>341646331
Take EVE.
Speed everythign up by 3x.
You now have the perfect MMO
>>341670045
Yeah, which is why they're so shit.
We need someone to start innovating again. But it wont happen for many reasons, the biggest being MMOs are easy to make and make lots of money.
>>341670221
Take the freedom of EVE.
Now have a game where you can freely explore space, but also land on the planets and explore those as well.
Every planet has a different setting, such as futuristic high society, stone age society, midieval society or just a world devoid of people and full of monsters to fight.
Now you have the perfect MMO.
>>341670212
I don't see how this is an MMO
its a hack and slash with a multiplayer lobby
>>341670212
game?
>>341667270
Oh?
Tanking = spam same few hate gen skills
Healing = spam same few healing/buff skills
DPS = spam same few DoTs/BigHits
Support = SE THOUGHT IT'D BE GOOD TO EXCLUDE THIS.
Yeah you totally have too many skills bro.
>>341670894
>I don't see how this is an MMO
This is literally the problem. If it's not a themepark/sandbox game it's not a real MMO and/or bad is the mindset of people.
People need to stop thinking like this. Until they do we can never have a good MMO again.
>>341671285
>This is literally the problem.
But there's no other people even with him
How is that massive multiplayer?
>>341671150
Oh boy, someone post the FFXIV rotations please.
>>341671507
Could be playing solo.
>>341671507
>you're not allowed to solo a raid boss
He's a level 80 showing off sick ass moves on a level 54 mob. I can't even get a webm of a 24 man raid
>>341671285
You're a fucking retard. He's saying it's not an MMO because it isn't by definition, it's a lobby multiplayer game. That's like saying Path of Exile or Destiny are MMOs
I fucking LOVE crafting.
But you know what I hate the fucking most?
Luck based crafting.
Even if you kill your ass to get all the items you need to craft something, to have the best chance you either need:
-A chance of proc (read critical) to have the highest quality possible
-A chance to have the item at all since the craft can fail and you get nothing
-A randomly generated minigame still luck based
It depends of the games but most F2P mmos are like this.
And the few mmo who aren't like this will either have all the items you need behind either a cash well, where you need an absurd amount of money to get the items required or behind raid dungeons where everyone can roll for it.
I just want to be a Smith and create my own brand and have players taking commissions from me ;_;
>>341671887
Vindictus had pretty nice crafting, it just took much too long.
>>341671864
They, in a way, are though. Dungeon Fighter Online is the same as well, it's definitely classified as an MMO, but not the open world people want.
>the mmo that never scored
>>341672442
>tfw playing this game alone because no friends
>>341672563
>tfw playing this game alone cause /vg/ died
>>341671150
There are way too many off global cooldowns I have to keep track of when you play on controller. Take ninja for example. I have my 1-2-3 with Aeolian Edge, then I have Dancing Edge and Armor Crush as the replacement enders. Then I have Mutilate and Shadow Fang as my dots. Then I have my ninjitsu so that's another 4 and you have to have trick attack. That's 12 so far but that's not counting my off global cooldowns. I have Kassatsu, Dream within a Dream, Duality, Mug, Assassinate, Jugulate, Internal Release, Blood for Blood, and Invigorate. Now I need my support abilities like Goad and I always use Shukuchi plus I need to have Limit Break on there.
That's 24. 24 abilities you constantly use on a game where a lot of people play on a controller because it feels much better. I'm not even counting PVP abilities since not many play it
I play most mmo alone nowadays.
And when I try party for a dungeon/instance I die a little inside when no one talk at all and act like bots.
>>341647746
as long as someone constructs a wiki mmos will always be shit
>>341672901
Maybe it's because you are a boring fuck
>>341671560
I've seen them, I played all three roles well into Alex (savage) ... It is exactly that. Spam the rotation.
neverwinter had it right but thats just cause i dont like grinding
>>341672901
>hhmmmm I want to socialze better go into this dungeon to start a chat instead of town that's a good idea
>>341672901
This is why I quit playing theme parks
Auto grouping content finders killed them
I love how idiots think that just because an MMO isn't a seamless open world with 0 loading screens and a gankbox that it isn't a "real" MMO.
>>341671560
Do you think that the FFXIV rotations are complex?
>>341673041
All I have is my full dedication to the game. I'm sorry.
>>341673137
>waaaah why do people keep telling me my lobby based hack and slash isn't an MMO
>>341672442
pvp in this game was fucking wicked
>land bone cleave into whirlwind
>enemy disconnects their internet
barb best boy
>>341672901
I dont mind if no one talks in dungeons
Only if that means people are being efficient as fuck
Sadly thats almost never the case and everyone else sucks
>>341673091
You mean the towns when everyone just go to the banks/market without talking to anyone and go back doing whatever quests they were doing?
Far away is the time where they were community made zones to create your own shop and you could try to lower the prices by talking directly to the shop owner.
>>341673279
>waah why do people call something that isn't WoW #1427 an mmo waah
I've lost all my online friends after/during FF14.
>>341673443
This, towns are so empty, it's like a ghost town. World is nearly full yet no one is in sight.
>>341666287
This, clearly Yoshida is the best
>>341673506
>waaaah I'm so dumb I think that people are telling me my lobby based MP game isn't an MMO because it isn't like WoW
>>341673751
But why
>>341665441
This, mmos need more catgirls/lolis
>>341673041
>>341673091
>>341673416
>Be healing main but with DPS/Tank reroll to have a better understanding of the game
>See that the Tank or DPS is struggling doing their job
>Try to talk to them and give them advices
>Either get ignored, or they tell me to shut up, or simply leave the party without saying anything
Communicating in mmos is dead nowadays.
>>341673865
Because it's all anti social faggots
>>341673831
>But why
Have you SEEN how that man draws thighs?
>>341673443
>>341673634
mmos were never meant to continue into the advanced years of video games. it's an awful concept and should have died with previous gens.
>>341674001
>mfw looking at edea and agnes from BD
>>341646331
>So how do we fix the MMO genre?
Make a good single-player RPG, then slap co-op on it. That's all I ask for.
I've been enjoying ESO. From my perspective it's just a slightly grindier Elder Scrolls with more slice of life quests. Crafting is useful. Guildies are fun to chat with. One of them offered Hircine's gift the other day. Quite an erotic ordeal, werewolves. And there are plenty of permanent decisions that forever change your game world, not huge but sufficient for RP purposes. I rate it a solid comfy/10.
>>341674050
MMOs as a whole would be fine if WoW hadn't become massively popular.
>hurr durr the players are different now
Eve's success begs to differ. Theme park players are different now because the standards set by WoW brought in undesirables who wanted to be able to do everything without having to socialize
elements in variety are only as valuable as the rewards they provide in today's market. the key to making a good MMO is real horizontal progression. allow the player choice in how they gain power (without making one avenue clearly superior to others) and don't obsolete the rewards they gain every few months (ie with climbing item levels). return to a gearing strategy where players have to make interesting choices while avoiding obvious pitfalls previous iterations of this idea have been trapped by.
allow classes/specs to vary in power/purpose and don't be scared to give them spells/abilities they may not use every fight. conversely, don't go overboard with this concept. classes/specs don't have to be balanced around 1v1 duels, but they should have a clear purpose and should be desired to clear relevant content. strive to give players opportunities to feel valuable no matter how they decide to play.
when in doubt, err on the side of the players. allow them as much autonomy as possible (eg player controlled prices/markets, very lightly moderated open world pvp, things like that)
>>341674375
take a cuhrazy singleplayer game. Give it multiplayer and you've got vindictus
>>341674001
I haven't, show me his best work.
>>341672932
Not if the game focuses on something besides set quests everyone shares. If you have randomly generated quests and objectives, a wiki won't help.
>>341646331
Get rid of all the time consuming shit and just allow people to do fun shit like pvp or raids without having to grind for gear or farm or craft or whatever other nonsense.
A lot of content in mmos is legitimately challenging and fun, but you just have to waste so much time to get to the good stuff that it's not worth it.
>>341673865
Maybe it's because you are a healer with too much time on your hands not doing your job correctly trying to tell other people what to do when you could be weaving in attacks while waiting to heal instead of being an annoying bastard. Seriously though, it's annoying as fuck when people are chatting during a boss fight or a person trying to tell you what to do. You shouldn't have time for that and no one gives a fuck about your opinion.
![e173e4b944a6e8812372227a6df9cbc8[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/rvLsysI.jpg "e173e4b944a6e8812372227a6df9cbc8[1].jpg")
>>341674550
>>341674735
They'll find a pattern eventually
>>341646331
Make them futuristic like overwatcb
>>341674050
I don't know if it's the mentality of players who changed but in older times (around 2003-2008) I feel like players were more outspoken.
I remember having nice discussions while farming cards in RO with other players on the map.
I remember fishing in Runescape and talking about the universe, galaxy and space in general with other fishermen.
I remember just going in a farm zone in L2 and saying hello and discussing with the people there.
I remember literally rolling my ass off while doing dungeons with my party in Wow.
Why are people so asocial nowadays?
>>341646331
By coming up with something new and not copying World of Warcraft anymore.
Dragon Quest X actually did a good job of this.
>>341674473
>muh wow boogeyman
as long as there's a sub attached people are always going to be going for the fun yet efficient use of time ratio. and that has more often than not been the rule. I also feel social media has affected this as well. You can socialize in a million different ways and don't need the games to do that anymore.
>>341675053
Normies got computers and play games now
Gamers aren't outsiders anymore
>>341675053
Man, I really do miss the days when you could talk about random shit in MMOs and there would ALWAYS be 50 people lined up to join in your convo. Or like you could do silly shit like give out, say, in-game beer that is monetarily worthless and yet people would be really happy and strike up a conversation.
>>341674865
>undetailed blobs
wow this is an amazing artist
>>341675053
People in older RPGs were more social because it was required to play the game. Try playing through a game with UO, FF XI, or RO without talking to anyone. You're not gonna achieve anything because you had to talk in order to even level, since you had to do it with other people. Compare that to MMOs now where it's a single player RPG to level cap.
>>341675053
The internet got flooded by just about everyone. Now no-one talks because there's a good chance it's a 12 year old on the other end that's just going to throw out abuse and lolsorandumxD comments. It's just not worth it.
>>341675053
Anon
I work 7-5
I come home exhausted
I dont want to deal with other's shit
My time is limited and I want to get things done and cleared,not chat it up
Things arent the same as they used to be
Work took away my time
>>341674812
I get your point but when you see a tank pulling mobs very badly without putting his defensive buff on or DPS classes doing low damages because they don't have a good understanding of their classes (for example, an assassin using his backstab ability in the front of the monster) there's literally nothing wrong in giving them advices.
>>341675291
simplicity is an art on it's own
>>341675180
>as long as a sub is attached people are always going to do the most efficient thing
Bullshit. In games like UO and RO people would, for the most part, take it easy and enjoy taking the time to help a friendly. The only MMO where people still do things because it's fun to do it and not because it's "efficient" or required for progression is Eve, which is also sub.
>>341675241
>being that lol so randumb guy that *holds up spork*
find a noose
>>341675458
>I work 7-5
Aw poor baby
>>341675568
Eve isn't fun though.
>>341675458
what a pussy
>>341646331
Grinding is arbitrary bullshit to keep players paying.
DFO does grind right, by making it piss easy and seamless.
However, endgame isn't accessible but to the top 5% of the population, so there's
>Unrealistic goals to strive for
>RNG for gear that you can't even minimize
>Standards you'll never attain without massive money or luck.
So the point is:
>Make an MMO That isn't grindy, but has challenge once you complete the "inevitable bitch work".I love FFXIV, but that grind to cap is awful. FFXI had a longer grind, but the mandate of knowing people and having a decent party reputation made parties and exp gain that much more intimate.
rip Manaburn, you were the best BLM only linkshell for leveling and NM shenanigans ever
>>341676185
>DFO did grind right
lolno, fatigue ruins everything. Takes you forever to level on DFO.
>>341675241
>Go in newbie zone
>See a new players
>Start a conversation
>Explain to them how the game roll
>Give them advices and some good gear for starting up
>Newbie player PM you every time he discover something fun or achieve a good thing
>Much later he become a member of the best guild in the server
>Mfw he started to did what I did to him too to others newbie
That's literally how I started RO myself, someone helped me at the beginning.
>>341676185
>DFO does grind right
>can only do 10 dungeons a day unless I roll out shekels
don't get me wrong DFO is a great game (was doing pvp earlier today) but grinding in it is god awful
>>341675458
How about NOT playing a mmo and resting instead?
>>341676375
You practically ruined his life.
>>341676375
Same but for Eden Eternal. That game was surprisingly fun
VR
>>341676375
>that loser hanging out in the newbie zones who can't do anything
>think he's cool at first
>get experience
>realize he has shit skill distribution and low damage
>never talk to them again
>>341676369
Well, I didn't mean the fatigue, but you'll accuse me of migrating goalposts if I say that.
So, I'll say this.
>EXP GAIN, WHILE YOU GAIN IT, IS ACCELERATED TO A NICE, REASONABLE PACE FOR LEVELING PURPOSES.
>>341676569
Eden Eternal was too repetitive for me in the beginning, I don't know. It was quest to quest to new area to quest, etc.
>>341676691
>The first VR mmo will be SAO based
>>341676691
>>341676835
>the vr mmo will be a clunky shitty graphic mess
>it'll last 3 days before people lose interest because nobody fucking owns vr
>>341676486
Because I dont want to waste away what little free time i have sleeping
I want to have fun
>>341676185
I've tried a bunch of MMO's recently, to which all my friends were like "nah man just get to max level that's when the game get's really fun." 10-12 hours I'm still doing shitty grinding and soloing dungeons and I'm like level 30 out of 60. Fuck that shit, if half the game is just a grind to get to other half which is actually fun then why have the grind at all? Just start everyone at max level, and unlock some shit as they play without a massive grind.
>>341676691
>>341646331
It's simple
WE
KILL
THE
QUESTGRINDS
>>341677034
>max level is when the game gets fun
Your friends lied, whatever shitty theme park they're playing is shit even at max level
>most of your mmo friends you would consider raging faggots if you met them today
>>341676835
>>341676938
>>341677084
It'll get better, it's still too early.
>>341677184
Theme park babbies would flip their shitIt would be glorious
>>341677034
Sounds like Wildstar, senpai.
That game's shit from the get-go, if you look at what lies ahead.
>>341677243
>most of your mmo friends are have children/died/grown up
>>341677338
right let's spend our days grinding porings lads it'll be amazing
>>341677346
The most recent one was about Blade and Soul. Wildstar got so much bad press I aint even touching that with a barge pole.
>>341677346
i really liked the art of wildstar, and the general feel of the game. i tried so hard to like the game but I just couldn't
>>341677448
As long as you're required to form groups for it it still sounds better than the hub based questing slog
Fuck I would kill for another FFXI or RO.
>>341677338
What does theme park mean
>>341646331
Even RTS is dead how come MMO still lives. Life isn't fair.
Pic related last good MMO
>play ffxiv for a few years
>try out tera because thick thighed elins
>map is huge and open world
>limited transportation or teleporting options>begin to miss ffxiv's smaller zoned areas
>>341677708
>Fuck I would kill for another FFXI
Me too.
>>341677448
Grinding is a better past-time activity in an MMORPG than quests.
Fact.
Grinding brings people together. Grinding is why parties are formed, guilds are maintained, and people come online.
People use 'grinding' like it's some sort of swear word now, when it was never supposed to be. The only reason it has such a negative connotation is because of the hordes of really tedious MMOs that had grinding out the ass like Lineage 2 where grinding for a week may possibly give you a single level.
But not all of them were like that.
Early MMOs, the best MMOs, only had quests as an afterthought, most quests didn't even give you EXP back then. Just items.
And it was perfect because of that.
Listen, when you grind for hours at a time. You will want someone to accompany you, and you will encoutner other players of the same level and in the same boat as you. This is how you make friends. This is how communities form.
So when everyone is busy in their questlines, not even touching the main towns or the grinding zones because of the massive advantage questing has to grinding; that's a huge problem. That's how you starve a community death. You can't keep a community alive if everyone is scattered to the far winds trying to suck the dick of every NPC with a mark over their head.
Grinding needs to make a return in a sane and manageable way.
MMOs NEED grinding at some level. Which is a shame that so many of them have chosen to replace grinding combat for exp to grinding text boxes and delivery quests for exp. Like this is somehow going to engage people.
>>341677832
It means the game world is not dynamic. Your character has no real agency.
>>341677832
Ask your mom or google it
>>341678162
You're right but you're going to get roasted for this post.
>>341677442
>You're still in the same situation as back thenKill me already.
>>341678158
vagina bones make me want to breed
>>341678162
>mmos NEED grinding.
so it's an inherently flawed genre that deserves its impending deletion
>>341678385
So fuck off to your pleb pseudo-MMOs
>>341678090
>Those fucking thighs
Is that a real figurine or a garage kit?
>>341673751
Too generic.
The difference is yoshida is an illustrator and amano is an artist.
>>341678158
>>341677708
>Nothing's been the same since I left Vana'diel after an eight year term in it.
FUCK.
>Friends want to play some of that Tree of Savior, but I'm paranoid of builds.
JUST LET ME BUY/GET SCROLLS AT LEVELS OKAY?I don't know whether or not liking FFXI's system of skill acquisition means I'm casual or not, but it was HOT SHIT BEING THE ONLY NINJA LFG WITH UTSUSEMI: NI FOR TANKING. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
>>341678385
>so it's an inherently flawed genre that deserves its impending deletion
It's a genre for people with patience who want to meet other people for cooperative play. As were the MUDs before it.
It was never meant to be a genre that awarded everyone equally based on time spent on it. It never has been or will be as long as they continue to have things like random drop tables.
So the idea that everyone should be entitled to the same amount of progress in the form of quests, whether they're good at the game or not, is killing the genre. You have people now who probably consider themselves pretty good at their class in end-game dungeons in every MMORPG who don't know the most basic aspects of it because they learned how to grind the text boxes instead of grind their class.
TERA is the perfect example of this. People whose only skill is clicking through text boxes getting spots in raids where a combination of incompetence causes their team to fail.
![Muntoe1401848191[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Gm26oQV.jpg "Muntoe1401848191[1].jpg")
>>341678561
Garage kits
>>341678662
XI's leveling system was acceptable because your subjob, spells, knowhow and gear choices / acquisitions defined you as a player. Late you had some choices, too.
>>341646331
VR
No fetch quests
Interesting PvP
Puzzle platforming involved in raids
Bosses that aren't damage sponges
Different and unique classes and abilities.
Combine Eve Online and Warframe.
>>341646331
Very little npcs
No level requeriment for taking a quest
No chain of quests
Make it as open world as possible.
Lots of mechanics to force players to interact and party together
>>341678928
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kQF4r03yRI
>>341678158
What was this doujin called again? Used to be one of my favorites by G-man before I had to delete my entire mithra directory.
>>341678928
>>341678090
The only reason I picked up TERA.
Much like how Pic related was the only reason I picked up Lineage 2.
>>341671150
>Healing = spam same few healing/buff skills
Shitter spotted.
>>341678976
>XI's leveling system was acceptable because yourSKILLCHAINS MOTHERFUCKER
Fixed.
God, I love inter-party dynamics like those.
>>341678861
>It was never meant to be a genre that awarded everyone equally based on time spent on it. It never has been or will be as long as they continue to have things like random drop tables.
Well now you're just talking out of your asshole. The longer you spend, in general, the more progressed you will be including items.
>So the idea that everyone should be entitled to the same amount of progress in the form of quests
Grinding is no different you idiot. You kill an orc you get exp. You kill 500 orcs you get 500x the exp. Anyone can do it. Grinding mobs is not a skillful endeavor.
>You have people now who probably consider themselves pretty good at their class in end-game dungeons in every MMORPG who don't know the most basic aspects of it because they learned how to grind the text boxes instead of grind their class.
Again, with the grind, much the same. How many people mindlessly killed enemies but couldn't provide anything useful to the group aside from a warm body?
>>341679198
Some of those outfits are pretty nice
>>341679302
you must be playing an easy raid or something if you have time to do other things. call me when you're playing a real game not wow in anime skins
>>341679369
You missed the entire point of his post.
Aion was mostly a grind fest at release, but it had one good thing that I really liked.
Elites areas not instanced that forced people to party without party finders.
God it was fun back then.
>>341646331
By giving me Final Fantasy XI-2 with the party grind back.
>>341646331
Make all devs watch that Mr Btongue's Michael Jordan video
>>341647746
>Doesn't like gear based progression
Call me new but thats one of the only reasons I play MMOs, to get the best gear on the server and brag about it.
Also Arena PvP should never be removed (as long as there is Open-World PvP as well), its a place where low tiers can get a taste of high tier PvP
>>341678158
Well good thing the FFXI team made another game!
...oh wait.
>>341648227
How desu?
Archeage i think has the best example of what your talking about... Max level characters cant go into the other faction "non-PvP" territory and fight lower level chars but they can fight other maxes.
>>341679369
>Well now you're just talking out of your asshole.
Great job not even reading my post.
> The longer you spend, in general, the more progressed you will be including items.
now you're just talking out of your asshole. Quests are made to give everyone equal progress and equal ground in terms of items and progress. That's exactly the reason they were even introduced: To give players who were down on their luck some items to keep them relevant in the parts of the game they were in.
But we have games that took that to the extreme and ruined the balancing on it. You were not supposed to progress based on how much time you spent on the game, it's based on how much you did.
Just look at a modern MMORPG, everyone gets the same completion EXP if they complete a quest whether they killed the monsters or not. Same goes for people who were merely in the same party or in the same time-zone when it happened. This, is, not, okay.
>Grinding is no different you idiot.
Yes, yes it is. Because you see: Grinding forces the player to confront the difficult mobs of the game in order to get huge gains on their EXP bar.
Meanwhile, questing is the only path and the only path that makes any sense in games that have them as their focal point. Everyone faces the same challenge, killing harder monsters doesn't reward more, and you can sleepwalk through them with a group.
How the fuck is that even remotely the same? Is WoW your first MMO?
>Again, with the grind, much the same.
now you're just talking out of your asshole. I hope you stop getting your ideas from there sometime soon.
>>341679774
An ideal MMO could have gear you get from raids/quests. But it should also have a system where people can find the same (or better) armor through exploration. And a third system for people who craft armor.
The problem really isn't the gear, but that they balance the entire game around that gear. The 'progression' part is the problem. Gear should be something that helps your character block damage. Not define your level and what content you can access.
Hows oldschool runescape these days
havent been on for a year but I want another idle game
>>341646331
It's simple. You take the Mabinogi class system, expand on it, and bring it into modern times. That shit is awesome.
>>341679369
you are 100% wrong. the purpose of grinding to reward people based on challenge given.
if you kill harder monsters, you get better rewards.
if you kill easier monsters, the reward isn't as good but the challenge is easier.
no where can you do the same with quests.
>>341647746
GW2 did pretty much everything you listed
it's not that good
>>341651327
>sub 24
oddly specific... anyway suggest me a non-themepark MMO
>>341646331
It won't be fixed because we're not teenagers with nothing to worry about.
Let the genre go away with some dignity
>>341680260
Don't even bother unless it's old RO
New RO is like this ancient spanish galleon with all these modern accessories bolted onto it. You have a stereo system, a microwave/oven, even a television. You're still on a rickety ride that feels like it could collapse at any moment, haunted by the ghosts of people who enjoyed it a lot more than you probably ever could in the era that it was made for.
>>341680416
No they didn't.
I've been summoned once again!
>>341680062
>Yes, yes it is. Because you see: Grinding forces the player to confront the difficult mobs of the game in order to get huge gains on their EXP bar.
NO it fucking doesn't. Have you even played MMOs? People tackle whatever they can kill quickly and efficiently. You found far fewer people in challenging places than you do in easier mid range content. You're simply idealizing your old content.
>>341680447
Your only choice these days is Eve.
UO is kill
RO is kill
XI is kill
Mabi is kill (may admittedly be the least kill)
SWG is super kill
>>341680631
>RO
Fuck
I mean Runescape.
I haven't even tried new RO.
