A problem I had was with Cap's motivation. Bucky. If he knew Bucky wasn't responsible because he was brainwashed, that would be pretty easy to prove so the reason to get into a fight with the other Avengers over this seemed kind of weak. It's something that could have been explained in 5 minutes.
Another problem was Iron Man actually blaming Bucky for killing his parents. I understand that he would get emotional but to disregard the brainwashing when you're in the room full of people who got brainwashed seemed so contrived.
Remember this was Zemo's "plan" all along. And furthermore Zemo tries to kill himself afterwards which would suggest he'd either felt guilty about what he had done or he was never going to actually see if his plan worked.
Speaking of Zemo's plan. Why did he blow up the UN when the accords were already suggested? To put the blame on Winter Soldier? Since when was Winter Soldier an Avenger? And if the reason was because he knew that Cap would stick up for Bucky and cause a rift between the Avengers, it seems like the footage of Bucky strangling Iron Man's mothers would have sufficed.
There's so many problems in this movie I really don't understand all the praise it's been getting except for the airport fight scene which was pretty amazing.
>>69267399
Avengers "Black Lives Matter" edition
Cap was trying to save Bucky's life. After the bombing of the UN, there was a shoot on sight order for him.
Iron Man got emotional. He found out who killed his parents, AND that Cap hid it from him.
Zemo's plan was to break up the Avengers. He succeeded. He was going to kill himself because his mission was over.
He blew up the UN to draw Bucky out of hiding and find out what happened in his 1991 mission. After he found out what happened, he discovered the location of the Siberia base, and the surveillance footage was already there. Zemo didn't know all this stuff beforehand.
>>69267719
I agree on all accounts. I'll add that Cap not only wanted to save Bucky's life because there was a shoot on sight order; he also wanted to prevent Bucky from killing someone, because he knew Bucky had no choice but to fight for his life, and left to his own he would need to kill in self-defense. With Cap helping him no soldier was killed and they would've gotten away if T'Challa didn't get in the middle.
Yeah, I'm not sure. Why wasn't Nick Fury in this movie either? Figured he'd have an opinion on something like this
>>69268093
I hope he's after something so important that all this little political problems pale in comparison. Maybe Fury already is on the shadows preparing the defense against Thanos?
>>69267399
If people talked things out instead of acting on emotion, 99% of movies would have no story.
>>69267399
>Why did he blow up the UN when the accords were already suggested? To put the blame on Winter Soldier?
Yes.
He knew this would make Steve violate the Accords to protect Bucky, becoming a fugitive in the process. This was the most important part of his plan.
>>69267399
Even if Cap would have proved that Bucky was innocent, they would have still gone after him and kept him captive at that underwater prison or some other place for psychological evaluation
>>69267719
So in other words, Zemo simply wanted to put distrust between the Avengers, but even he didn't imagine that Bucky would be Tony's parents murderer?
>>69267399
was this fucking movie seriously too intelligent for you?
>>69268436
He knew it was an important mission, but didn't have specifics. That's why he kept asking the guy he tied up what happened, until he finally got the info direct from Bucky.
Why do people get confused about why Tony went ape shit? Not only is the guy extremely impulsive as seen in other movies, but Cap had kept this secret from him. If he had explained it to Tony before and talked to him about it, maybe it would've worked out better.
Bucky is just there to create more tension but it doesn't hinge on him alone. Cap almost signs the Accords when Bucky is caught alive but stops when he learns that they imprison Wanda.
>>69267399
I love how people make these rational posts without realizing they have the benefit of hindsight and that people do a lot of silly things in the heat of the moment when emotions are flying.
Criticizing Stark for not being rational in that moment is really stupid and makes you seem kind of ignorant of how people react and things unfold in those types of situations. Being rational isn't the first thing that usually happens.
>>69267399
>>69268659
It's also a movie and they're going to embellish a bit for the sake of story. They did enough to suspend disbelief.
Cap was once willing to allow the destruction of his own universe because he didn't feel it was right to destroy another to save our own.
>>69268534
Cap acknowledges it was a mistake.
I feel it came from a personal standpoint from Cap, too. He knew HYDRA killed the Starks, but didn't know Bucky was involved. But he he had told Stark, not only would Stark investigate further and it could bring him a lot of pain, but there was also a very real possibility that it'd turn out to be Bucky, and Cap would rather look the other way on that possibility.
>>69268821
No, Cap knew. The Arnim Zola scene in Winter Soldier made it pretty clear.
>>69268515
But still, it was a shot in the dark. It could've easily been the Winter Soldier killing a random politician. In the dynamic of the movie it makes a lot of sense, we even start with Tony and his parents almost at the beginning and that becomes the central conflict, but in reality is something that Zemo found out by chance almost at the very moment the others did.
I think it would've been more organic if it started with Zemo finding about it, and then setting up everything, even having Tony realize it not in Siberia, but in the middle of the city. Imagine the impact of their fight if it happened while endangering civilians lives, with their fight being broadcasted everywhere. That would've been more dramatic and more of a disruption in the status quo; a point where it would be difficult to return from.
>>69268958
He knew HYDRA did it, but not that it was Bucky, as he himself states in the movie.
>>69267399
>disregard the brainwashing when you're in the room full of people who got brainwashed seemed so contrived.
He doesn't care.
They killed his mom.
>>69267719
>He found out who killed his parents,
No he didn't. See, this is the level of stupidity this movie seems to count on.
Did you forget Bucky was brainwashed?
SOMEONE ORDERED BUCKY TO KILL STARKS PARENTS
WHY DOESN'T IRON MAN CARE ABOUT THIS?
>>69269298
Because the people that ordered their deaths were already dead or in prison. HYDRA, as an institution, has been dismantled, and all its purpoted leaders - Alexander Pierce, Baron Strucker and Zola - dealt with.
He needed an outlet for that rage, and the man that actually killed them was right in front of him.
>>69269203
Ultron killed lots of people's moms. Was Zemo correct in his revenge? He acted the same way Stark did.
>>69269392
>were already dead or in prison
Crossbones wasn't? And who's to say Hydra isn't still active to some capacity? WHO????
>>69269298
Good job, you just found a very real character flaw. Tony's argument throughout the whole movie is that he has to be kept in check for having an enormous amount of power. Him going balistick at the end proves his own point that those with power have to be regulated, lest they end up using their gift for selfish reasons. It comes full circle becuase he's just a normal man, and that's the point.
>>69269431
No one said anything about either revenge being correct. But they're both very normal human reactions.
>>69270088
>Tony's argument is he has to be kept in check
>never checks his own power, instead wants laws passed so everyone is restricted
That's why I don't like Iron Man in these flicks. He's like some asshole who wants alcohol banned 'cause he can't stop drinking.
>>69270199
I've seen plenty of people on the Tony Is Right bandwagon, anon. He's understandable, but he ain't right.
>>69270329
And that was anon's point to begin with...
>>69270251
I dont think that's's a very good comparison. I think it's perfectly reasonable for public service officials to operate under an established communal organization.
>>69267399
Why can you not understand that Tony was so upset and angry that he wasn't able to think things through? The beginning of the movie established he was still fucked up over his parent's deaths, so to find out it wasn't a car accident, it was murder, to see the brutal murders actually happen, his ally hid the fact it was murder from him, and to have the guy that did it right in front of him all at the same time could upset anyone and make them just not care Bucky was innocent.
I'm not saying it was a good thing to do or the right thing, but it's not out of character or not understandable given the circumstances. I think most people would want to take a swing at Bucky at that point, it's just that Tony was wearing his death armor at the time, so of course it went much worse than that.
>>69270088
>Tony Stark
>normal
Sure thing buddy. Let me just get my suit of armor and fly around killing bad guys. Be right back.
>>69267399
I'm beginning to think CW has fewer, but bigger inconsistencies than BvS. The more I think about it, the more stupid shit I realize about it. Like really, really stupid.
Also, it's pretty fucking sad to see a more human Vision than Supes. I know Snyder is trying to make him as alien to humanity as possible, but he's also taking away a lot of the character.
>>69270564
Yeah, he's built as a super human but it's movies like this that ground him by showing that he's just as flawed emotionally as anyone else. That was my point.
>>69270458
Look, even if I'm willing to concede that point, it doesn't make sense that Tony doesn't even care who ordered the hit on his parents.
He doesn't even ask why Bucky killed them, he doesn't ask who ordered the hit. Nothing. Nada. Zip.
Everyone would want to know these things. The movie doesn't even allow for these questions to be asked. It's literally a plot hole in order to get Iron Man to fight Cap and Bucky.
>>69270453
It's a perfect comparison. Tony only supports the accords because he fucked up with Ultron.
The accords only regulate the good guys and they're strangled with red tape while the bad guys are ending the world.
>>69268534
>Cap had kept this secret from him
When did Cap find out about this? Was it during the flight with WS? Because from that moment onwards there as hardly a good time to discuss that kinda shit.
Still, I'd be apeshit as well if I found out who killed my folks, AND got to see how it happened. Brainwashed or not, I'd get really really mad.
>>69270820
You still seem to not understand it was a heat of the moment thing though.
I'm sure all those questions will happen at some point, but right that moment, he was incredibly angry and hurt and had a suitable target in front of him to take his anger out on, nothing else mattered right then.
>>69270647
Supes isn't human though. Pretending that he is doesn't make him so.
>>69271067
I mean, human in an emotional kind of way. Half the appeal of Supes is how he manages to be just another good guy in the world, even if he has the capabilities to rule it. Having him be almost silent and never smiling is kinda disappointing.
>>69271010
I understand that it was a heat of the moment thing. But even after it all ended, the movie doesn't show Tony the least bit concerned about the people who ordered the hit.
It's a huge oversight. They should have had Tony or even Cap at least address the fact that the ones accountable could still out there.
But nope, the movie just pretends like that's not important at all. Even thought it's the main reason why Tony loses his shit in the first place.
>>69267399
>Speaking of Zemo's plan. Why did he blow up the UN when the accords were already suggested? To put the blame on Winter Soldier? Since when was Winter Soldier an Avenger?
Bucky being an Avenger or not has NOTHING to do with anything you just said
Goddamn you're stupid
>>69271315
He already know who ordered the hit. It was Hydra, and the Avengers already destroyed Hydra.
>>69270820
Why is it so unreasonable? He clearly thinks about his parents all the time. Do you think it's so unbelivable that someone would get blindly mad after meeting their parents killer and finding out that your supposed friend kept it a secret?
>>69270820
You've been repressing the pain of your parents deaths for decades, then you learn they were actually brutally murdered and the guy who did it is standing right in front of you.
Even a normal human would lose their shit, and Tony Stark is an even bigger spazz than Banner.
You're looking at this from the perspective of a calm, detached moviegoer, not Iron Man's
>>69271315
You not been keeping up with the MCU, then?
Hydra is mostly done for, there's only small cells here and there.
>>69271222
Well, you wouldn't be smiling if you had to clean up other people's mess every time.
Every time he stops being Superman to pretend like he's an actual human some people are getting hurt.
But yea, let's just pretend that's not a factor and that everything is just honky dory and he only needs to be Superman when someone is in trouble.
In reality even if he was being Superman 24/7 he'd still wouldn't be able to save everyone and either you'd grow numb to it or you'd be at least a little annoyed.
Superman smiling is actually pretty creepy if you think about it.
He knows what horrible things that go on in the world and he's just going to be happy regardless.
Yep. Sure. That's not weird at all.
Every time I see cops on the news they are smiling.
>>69271404
> the Avengers already destroyed Hydra
I remember someone saying "Hail Hydra" in the movie. Pretty sure there are still some Hydra members out there.
>>69270958
That's a valid point, but that has nothing to do with personal responsibility of alcohol consumption.
The argument for drinking is that youre mature enough to not be reckless and keep it confined to your own personal habits. The accord's job is to create accountability for people to actively "help" those in need. To make sure they are held to the same standards of negligence any public servant would be.
>>69271464
I understand that.
But at some point Tony would have calmed down right? Let's say he managed to kill Bucky.
He got his revenge. He still doesn't know who actually ordered the hit. For all he knows the people responsible could still be out there.
They never address this in the movie. Do you see the plot hole yet?
>>69271694
Brah, did you just not pay attention to the movie?
He was a retired Hydra member that had files from 1991, not an active member or nothing.
Unless you are suggesting Stark should really spend time hunting down old men that haven't been relevant in years.
>>69271630
>Every time I see cops on the news they are smiling.
Yeah, every time I see a cop they're scowling and brooding.
Fuck off. You know I'm talking about the comics, from which some semblance I'd like to see on the big screen, especially regarding my favorite hero. This Supes is boring, is all -- if he wasn't, I wouldn't be pointing it out. Feels more like a Marvel character than a DC one.
>>69271694
He retired.
>>69271811
it's not a plot hole because hydra is done. they've already spent a shit ton of time on hydra in the mcu, we don't need to see tony stark hunting down the dregs.
>>69271811
There's not plot hole, Jesus.
1. Stark's never been able to get over his parents' deaths, as clearly shown during the beginning.
2. Dude then got mad, and with good reason
3. He's mad and realizes his supposed friend hid this very important detail about his life to protect some lowlife that should've been put down ages ago.
4. He knows HYDRA doesn't exist anymore. Why would he be thinking about an exterinated threat?
Fuck Cap and Bucky.
Cap is a hypocritical asshole that kept the identity of the murderer of Tony's parents hidden, and Bucky should've just killed himself.
>>69270820
Nigger, are you seriously this autistic? Do you not understand how human emotion can dictate an irrational course of action? I actually really liked the plot of civil war, for a blockbuster movie it was quite intelligent. The ending even subverted the comic book trope of the final big bad reveal when zemo straight up murdered the other winter soldiers in cyrostasis - quite exquisite. Also the way iron man succumbs to emotion at the end is a very nice cinematic irony. He was in support of the accords because of his own recognised vulnerability of human emotional disequanamity, and at the apex of the movie this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy when he himself becomes consumed by emotion in the face of situational adversity, following a suboptimal and destructive course of action.
>>69271811
You're making these assumptions of what Tony "should" be doing rather than looking at his actual actions.
If he had killed bucky he would have succumed to the plight of vengence just like everyone else in the movie has. Black panther literally says that Tony, and everyone else involved is consumed by vengence. That's a theme in the movie. It's not a plot hole, it's a character flaw. What validates the flaw is that it's consitent with the themes of the movie and proves tony's own point that people can't be trusted to use their powers without being kept in check.
>>69272094
He didn't though. He literally said in the movie he didn't know it was Bucky. It was an oversight to not tell him it was murder and not a car accident, but he admitted he was wrong there and apologized.
How can Bucky and Cap even be threats to Iron Man? Can't he just scan their fight patterns and beat their shit to the curb?
>>69271811
The point isn't who ordered the hit. His entire life has been built on the guilt of losing his parents, and never giving them their proper value.
He then finds out his best friend has been protecting the very man that killed his parents, and goes ballistic.
>>69271835
>>69271820
>He retired.
If someone said "Heil Hitler" you'd call him a nazi.
If someone says "Hail Hydra", he's retired.
It clearly suggests that there are still some people affiliated with Hydra out there. And then we have Crossbones. Who was he working for?
Ow, wait. You're going to tell me he wasn't working for anyone anymore. Maybe, but how does TONY know this?
HOW DOES TONY KNOW HYDRA ISN'T OUT THERE ANYMORE?
Hydra literally hid themselves for over 70 years. But now there are gone forever. We can be sure about this.
>people unironically discussing the plot of these films
God this board is shit
>>69272231
>If someone said "Heil Hitler" you'd call him a nazi.
No, I just either think they're joking or an idiot. You can't be this deluded.
I was cheering for Tony to kill off Bucky. What a shitty character.
>>69271782
That's not all the accords did. They create a chain of command and thus, suppress those who help.
Accountability is fine, but that isn't what the accords did only. Then you factor in how easily manipulated and corruptible those in command can be. Whether it be by HYDRA or Zemo. His patsying of Bucky led to a kill on sight order. Change Bucky with Scarlet Witch or Black Widow or any other Good Guy.
All because Tony can't control his power issues. A better recourse would be for Tony to stop building sentient robots.
>>69272094
Why is cap a hypocrite?
>>69272343
>getting upset becuase people talk about movies on a movie forum
Cap and whoever sides with him are fucking lunatics. A bunch of superpowered freaks with the power to destroy entire cities should damn well be put under regulation.
Fuck him.
>>69267399
>And if the reason was because he knew that Cap would stick up for Bucky and cause a rift between the Avengers, it seems like the footage of Bucky strangling Iron Man's mothers would have sufficed.
He didn't have that yet. He was going to the Siberian facility to get that. But he knew if the world thought Bucky was guilty, Cap would step up to defend his friend, causing conflict.
>>69272363
>being this naive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZkeUHM8FQk
You know there are people out there claiming the earth is flat, 9/11 was an inside job, all white men are racist and that reptilians are among us.
But neo-nazi's existing is just a bridge too far.
Ok sir, you've won me over.
>>69272425
What are you arguing, bro? That's a perfectly fine point like i said before, im telling you it's not relatable to alcohol consumption.
>>69272521
"Hey can we go stop the giant evil monster?"
"No there's a third council of voting that needs to be done before you can be deployed"
The real issue is that the parent organization of the Avengers used to be shield, now shield is gone.
>>69272213
>Cap didn't tell him because he would go ballistic
Also he didn't know. Jesus.
>>69268198
>Maybe Fury already is on the shadows preparing the defense against Thanos?
God, I would actually love that. That he'd been forming contingencies against extraterrestrial threats ever since the end of the Avengers.
>>69272521
Don't you know, Daddy America knows what's best for you, so shut up and take it?
>>69272576
Never said it's impossible -- I'm saying that the first thing I think when I hear someone salute Hitler is that they're an idiot.
>>69272641
They literally say that what cap did could be made legal if he sigend the accord.
People grossly overestimate the bureaucracy they'd go through. All the accord would do, is enable these insane freakshows to answer for their war crimes
>>69267719
>After the bombing of the UN, there was a shoot on sight order for him.
They then completely forgot about that and took him into custody
>>69272691
Cap is even more of an egomanica than Tony.
He truly believes that his judgement should trump over that of the entire globe. Even though he and his avenger have killed countless innocents already. What a dipshit.
>>69272591
That's because you missed the point. Tony's issues with governing himself are Tony's issues. Not Cap's, or Scarlet Witch or any of the others.
Tony makes his problems everyone else's. That's what I meant, not alcohol and power are 1=1 comparisons.
>>69272747
No, you literally said I was deluded implying that it was rather impossible or at least improbable.
I'm loving the backpedaling though.
>>69272783
Ideally yeah. I think the movie sets up a good view point that no one can really see what the future holds and that each side can easily have huge implications in how power is allocated.
>>69268093
Because Robert Downey Jr
>>69272783
>made legal
>after the fact
That doesn't change that they were would be blockages in responding to threats. They'd have to break the law to respond and hope it's negated after the fact.
>>69272521
blow me faggot, I thought it was going to be the other way around. Iron Man saying "fuck you" and captain going "y-yes mr president sir..."
The only country that matters is USA, the rest of them are shit and should be thankful that we don't wipe them off the map. Cant fucking believe there was even an accord because some third worlders died in an explosion.
The judgement of one super hero is better than the US government. If you live here, you already know how retarded politicians are. Now imagine just how much DUMBER they are in the rest of the world's shitter nations.
Captain America was right, Iron Man was only wrong because the plot had to be written to create conflict. In reality, they would have never fought to begin with.
>>69273030
Jesus christ, they literally used to have to wait for Fury to go "Avengers, go take care of this".
Now they'd have to wait for the secretary of defense to do that. Much better than being a bunch of all-powerful, unaccountable superpowerful rogues that have respect for other countries.
>>69273030
Who's to say they wouldn't reinstate some sort of SHIELD to facilitate the responses to threats?
I really don't see the problem here.
If you call the cops, they don't have to wait until they get permission from their superiors.
>>69273056
Can't wait until China and Russia band together to fuck you up the ass. The sight of the nukes wiping out millions of americans will be beautiful
>>69272521
It's more the kind of regulation they were talking about, IMO. The Avengers shouldn't be weapons in someone's hands to use for agendas. The Avengers should be a group of people trusted by the world enough to do the right thing in a crisis, and given the legal authority to do so, and subject to dismissal if they do something too out of line. Because if there's a UN appointed panel to call their shots for them, they turn from superheroes to super-agents, or super-employees. Then the best trait for them to aspire to is not to be the most moral, or courageous in the face of a threat to the world, but the most obedient.
If they really think the person is not to be trusted with the fate of the world, they should simply not be a superhero. Not forced to answer to the agenda of some government official. Cap was right about how that just shifts the responsibility out of the hands of the person trying to use their powers to help people, and into some UN official.
>>69272865
But he's not governing for himself, he's acting as a public servant which breeds a whole set of responsibilities.
If you are able to drink alcohol, you are responsible in keeping yourself in check without anyone's involvment.
If you are acting as a public protector, you are acting under the assumptions and limitations set up by the public.
You can not compare the two becuase they are two different ideas philosophically.
I dont understand your last sentence, senpai.
>>69272343
> tv user arbitarily disdains a product based on a stereotyped preconception based on a word attached to that product, which in isolation has very little intrinsic meaning.
You think this gives you higher taste, but you've adopted a child's modus operandi, whom when presented with something disagreeable will close their eyes and try to ignore it and make distressed noises to avoid engaging it. Consider this: what is art in your view? Something beautiful, inspired? Why can't making something entertaining be a form of art? What legal definition have you disingenuously attached to abstract, subjective process? I'm not saying any marvel movie is art, but it has the scope to be, so ignoring it out of a shallow description of a type of movie it purports to be is wrong. The death of art isn't from mass consumerism, this has existed for hundreds of years, it comes from narrowing your perspective.
>>69273117
And even SHIELD was manipulated from the beginning. Did you forget that part?
>but hydra is gone!
Until the next one comes along.
>>69273140
Did you miss the part of the previous flicks that SHIELD was infiltrated?
Cops don't handle international threats.
>>69273294
Cap literally fought in the army as a weapon to defeat the ebil nazis.
But now he's above all that right?
He's now the decider of who deserves to be protected and who should be eliminated.
Very democratic of him. Totally not a totalitarian dictatorship. He's just protecting the whole world. R-right?
There is literally nobody in the world that would allow this. But hey, it's just a movie right?
>>69273496
If they want to stop him go ahead, but the people will side with him, just how they side with batman.
Its the difference between Good and Order.
Order isn't always good.
>>69273323
Governing himself, not governing FOR himself. He doesn't restrain himself. When he gets the idea to build a robot, he SHOULD say to himself that it's likely to go pear-shaped. He doesn't.
Rather than stop himself, he wants a regulatory committee so say stop that.
>I dont understand your last sentence, senpai.
That seems to be a big problem for you.
>>69273445
>Cops don't handle international threats.
You're right. Let Captain AMERICA handle international threats. People won't blame America if he fucks shit up in their country.
America has no problems with one of their citizens exacting justice in other countries.
It's just like real life.
>>69273496
This is a lot of inferences you're pulling out of your ass.
>>69270820
I think it was a combination of Tonys guilt (out of all the Avengers, the deaths caused by the Ultron battle could be placed on his shoulders), Cap unwilling to at least make a goodwill political gesture, the perceived betrayal of Cap, choosing a one friend over him.Going as far as covering up the murder of his parents. Cap getting the other Avengers to turn against him. There were a lot of things leading up to the fight. Seeing the video of his parent just pushed him over the edge
picking up on these cues is not hard when you dont have the emotional intelligence of an autist
>>69273625
I see the crux of your argument now "He has America in his name so fuck that guy"
>>69273576
Good is a matter of perspective. From my point of view the Jedi are evil.
>>69273496
What does any of that have to do with my points, you simpleton? You're arguing against a position I never supported.
>>69273688
I'm just saying that America would get shit for something one of their citizen is responsible for.
It's actually a pro America argument.
>>69271811
What plot hole? He's literally in the bunker with ALL of Hydra's Winter Soldier secrets.
Of course Cap isn't going to sign a document surrendering his right of discretion after he just spent an entire movie rooting out a terrorist organization from the highest parts of government.
And Iron Man wants to do it because he feels shitty about all the damage he's caused. It's why he became Iron Man in the first place.
This isn't hard to figure out if you aren't an autist.
>>69273576
People are fucking retarded. Mob mentality exists, and it's horrible.
Order exists to keep idiots that would side with Cap in check. No one should act as a vigilante with total freedom and complete disrespect for foreing sovereignty/civil liberties.
>>69273577
And what does any of that have to do with alcohol consumption? Are you saying your ability to drink alcohol should be based on the same merit of decision making as being a public protector? Do you think it's that simple?
I have a problem understanding shitty grammer, yeah.
>>69273855
The how about sending Wanda to a tribunal for war crimes? Oh wait, Cap doesn't give a shit about how many innocents he and his disgusting team of terrorists murder, as long as they feel really boo boo saddy sad about it.
Captain America is a fucking spoiled brat. He wants all the privileges, and none of the accountability
>>69273294
>The Avengers shouldn't be weapons in someone's hands to use for agendas.
>>69273496
>Cap literally fought in the army as a weapon to defeat the ebil nazis.
>>69273726
If you don't see the hypocrisy in the statement that the Avengers shouldn't be a weapon for an agenda while Cap was literally made into a superweapon to win a war, I don't know what I can do for you.
>>69273967
You mean when she lost of control of an explosion she was containing and ended up killing a couple of dozen instead of hundreds?
You're right, anonymous troll. Absolutely disgusting, bullets should be put in them all.
>>69273812
And the movie never addresses the fact that the people who ordered the hit on his parents might still be out there.
It's a fucking plot hole.
We're supposed to believe that Bucky is responsible for the murders. That's why Iron Man doesn't even bother asking questions. Even after the fight is over.
It's an oversight and a plot hole because of it.
>>69274088
Holy shit are you fucking retarded. She threw an explosion at a building filled with innocents. She should be put under investigation, intentions be fucking damned.
>>69274143
It's not suppose to be rational. Tony isnt suppose to be thinking straight, thats the whole fucking point of the scene. Are you too autistic to understand this?
>>69274088
It was at least negligence and just shows that these people should at least be under some kind of oversight.
>>69274275
What would that do, exactly?
>>69274193
Literal retardation. Must be trolling.
>>69274262
Autists never understand emotions.
>>69274143
Because Hydra is over and the people who ordered the hit are most likely long gone and dead. If anything, Tony should be going after Zemo. But he wasn't thinking rationally, he knew Bucky was under mindcontrol, he simply didn't care cause muh mommy.
>>69274193
Everyobe looking under the assumptions that theyve seen these characters up close with clear motivations. If you turned on npr one day and heard that a random super human threw an explosion into a building, im sure you wouldnt be opposed to having an orginaztion oversee them for investigation of negligence.
>>69274143
he knows hydra did it, he knows hydra is done.
after he had time to calm down, i don't think he'd be out there eliminating every last person who had anything to do with hydra instead of getting back to rhodes and stuff.
>>69274262
Dude, are you literally retarded. I even stated that it should have been at least addressed AFTER the fight. You know? When Tony calms down? He's able to calm back down again at some point right?
Or will he be in perpetual rage until he dies now? No. At some point he should have at least addressed this issue or someone could have pointed it out to him.
Hell, Cap could have said something. But then again, he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. You're right.
Fuck it. This movie was dumb and I'm dumb for thinking there would be people who could be rational about this.
>>69274143
He doesn't ask because he doesn't care. The guy who killed his parents with his bare hands is right in front of him. If he wanted to know who ordered it, he's standing in the room with all the answers, but in the meantime, he's gonna get revenge.
>>69267399
>it's pretty easy to prove brainwashing
Cool story. Cite one case in which a mass murderer got off because he was "brainwashed". I'll wait
>>69274407
>>69274355
Hydra was over after the second world war too.
Crossbones was still around.
Someone literally says "Hail Hydra" in this movie.
But yep, they're all gone. We can be absolutely sure about this.
>>69274452
What part of Hydra is no longer a thing are you not understanding?
You're asking over and over, "why isn't Tony eliminating Hydra?" when the answer is that they are already eliminated.
>>69267399
This is the dumbest shit ever read. Re watch the movie or stop trolling
>>69274452
The movie is over after the fight, dipshit. Two friends literally almost killed each other, and one of them is a criminal now. Things are shooken up, its going to be awkward, theres going to be tension, and thats not even taking into the account everything happening around them. You think theyre going to to epilogue it in the last 5 minutes of a movie and have everything be hunky dory? Are you seriously shitting me right now?
>>69274576
They eliminated Hydra in the first 15 minutes of Age of Ultron.
>>69274548
The guy who said that was an old member that hasn't been part of hydra in decades. He just said that to spite Zemo, nothing more.
>>69269298
Spotted the autist
>>69274452
>Waaah things that are easy to figure out weren't explained to me and everything wasn't tied in a nice little bow at the end!
>That's a plot hole, you're all dumb for not agreeing!
>>69274016
>If you don't see the hypocrisy in the statement that the Avengers shouldn't be a weapon for an agenda while Cap was literally made into a superweapon to win a war, I don't know what I can do for you.
>This person was given powers with the intention that they would follow authority's orders
>That means that that person should always be that, forever, because that's what the government intended.
Do you see what's wrong with your position? With the assumption that what the government does is right, because they do it?
>>69274548
So Tony should go on a vengeance trip hunting down all leftover members of Hydra?
>>69274614
no they eliminated HYDRA in agents of SHIELD. after hive is taken out HYDRA is finished
>>69274716
Yeah, I want a whole movie of that, Iron Man blasting evil old men to bits and entire montages showing him tracking down the next one.
>>69274746
Nobody watches that show.
>>69274746
Yeah, unless Hive's HYDRA ends up fractured, and a part of it splits off to become a new arm of HYDRA. Do you not know how this works?
>>69274783
still canon
>>69274776
Wouldn't put it past him.
>>69274822
Not if the movies ignore it.
I hope Tony gives Friday a nice and cute syntetic body. She's a top tier waifu
>>69274678
But the Avengers exacting justice under the assumption that what they do is right, because they do it, that's totally legit right?
Replace government with the Avengers and you get the same fucking problem.
How do you not see this? At least when there's a government someone will be held accountable. When the Avengers fuck up it's just swept under the rug, because they're the Avengers, amirite?
this movie is kino
>>69267399
>I can't understand a children's movie
>>69274821
fair enough
>>69274892
fury shows up on the show
theta protocol on SHIELD was the green light for fury's helicarrier, which had a direct part on ultron
coulson's research in one episode gives the avengers the info they need to find loki's scepter
>>69268436
He says that over and over its his entire fucking mission "An empire bested by another can be rebuilt but one crumbles from within is truly gone forever." Did you watch the film?
>>69274957
But we've seen how governments handle these kinds of problems. They fire nukes at populated cities or allow terrorist organizations to undermine SHIELD. Governments can't be trusted to make these kinds of calls. When those who create the laws can't be trusted, the Avengers need to be above the law.
>tfw civil war asks the question "who watches the watchmen?" better than the Watchmen movie did.
>>69272849
yea the shoot on sight though was like, hes by himself just kill him, later on it was clear they could take him alive without any issue, whereas earlier it was likely he wouldve killed most of the people who came after him
>>69267399
>the footage of Bucky strangling Iron Man's mothers would have sufficed.
You're forgetting the part where he needed them to capture bucky so he could find out what happened on that night. The hydra guy refused, so he had them capture bucky, then he asked bucky and went right to where the footage was.
;_;
>>69267399
>>69275229
I think you're being trolled dude.
>>69275250
>He actually thought Cap would execute him
>>69275185
> the Avengers need to be above the law.
>Tony creates a murder bot that levels a whole city.
>Can just go ahead and make another one.
People make mistakes, and the Avengers are people. They will make mistakes and putting them above the law is just retarded.
>tfw civil war asks the question "who watches the watchmen?" better than the Watchmen movie did.
Wow, you're actually retarded. Well, that makes it more easy to disregard the next (you).
FYI, the point of Watchmen was that it was stupid that people act like they know best what's good for the world.
>mfw Cap is literally Ozymandias and the Russos don't see the problem with this.
>>69267399
Cap's moral compass has a steadfast and true North. He didn't "get into a fight" with the Avengers or anyone else. He was continuing on his path to search out Truth, anyone who stood in his way was an impediment, be they friend or foe. It's Tony who is starting the fight here.
>>69276014
>It's Tony who is starting the fight here.
No, if Cap just signed the accords he could have still searched for the truth.
He just wants to do his own thing because he thinks he knows better than all the rest.
Cap literally started the fight and almost killed Spidey. What if Spidey wasn't superstrong? He'd literally be a bloodstain right now. How did Cap even know that Spidey'd be able to lift that thing?
>>69276192
>almost killed
No he didn't, you wrote it yourself, Spidey is superstrong. He was in no mortal danger.
Cap just saw Peter go toe to toe with his team, AND tested his strength when he was pulling him with the web.
>>69276192
Either you're trolling or a pathetic numale cuck who's never truly introspectively confronted their own belief systems. Or a woman.
>>69272343
Faggot
>>69274957
>But the Avengers exacting justice under the assumption that what they do is right, because they do it, that's totally legit right?
You're strawmanning me again. Try to find one place where I said the Avengers should be given unlimited power. I didn't. You're arguing against nothing, to try to make the Accords as written look better. I'm not sure why though.
>>69277495
>With the assumption that what the government does is right, because they do it?
>But the Avengers exacting justice under the assumption that what they do is right, because they do it, that's totally legit right?
I literally used your words against you and you accuse me of strawmanning. The lack of self awareness is astounding.
>>69277641
>I literally used your words against you
No, you flipped the argument
>>69274016
made around, and pretended I was saying the inverse of it, because it's more convenient to do so than engage with my actual argument. That's what a strawman is. You're pretending I said that because goverment isn't right by default, that the Avengers always are. That's the sort of attempt at logic a 5 year old would do.
>>69277893
>That means that that person should always be that, forever, because that's what the government intended.
You mean like the strawman you inferred that I said something even comparable to what you stated here?
It's called projection buddy.
You make strawman arguments, I turn them around and you tell yourself I made them.
I'm just holding up a mirror and even then you can't see what's in front of you.
We can keep doing this dance if you want.
All I'm saying is Cap was built as a weapon for a purpose.
You pretend like I said that he should always be used like that.
I was just pointing out the hypocrisy when you said the government should never do that when they actually already did and it's the reason why Cap is even here in the first place.
That's all I said. The rest was you inferring things and creating strawman arguments to weasel yourself out of an indefensible position and me turning those strawman arguments on their head.
>Rodgers was chosen because he's a fundamentally good human being, with a drive to help others.
>If he's well written, he's stubborn to a fault, because he thinks his version of morality trumps that of everyone else
>if he's poorly written, he's always written to be the automatic moral superior to everyone, in any context
>In CW, he was both
In the MCU, was Banner trying to re-create the Captain America Super Soldier project, or was it an unrelated experiment?
>>69278291
If you say
>If you don't see the hypocrisy in the statement that the Avengers shouldn't be a weapon for an agenda while Cap was literally made into a superweapon to win a war, I don't know what I can do for you.
And I say
>That means that that person should always be that, forever, because that's what the government intended.
I say that because it's the only thing that could make sense out of what you said. There is no hypocrisy in saying The Avengers shouldn't be weapons for someone else's agenda, just because one of their ranks got their powers from the Government, and started out as a soldier.
So either:
You actually think that because Cap started out as a superweapon for a government's agenda it's "hypocritical" to say he shouldn't be one now.
or
You don't actually know what hypocrisy means.
I said the Avengers as an institution. They should not be weapons for someone's agenda. Cap was create in a different time. The US needed an edge against HYDRA, which was about to take over the world. There was no superteam of with tons of clearly superhuman members, and no one was saying they should be used to enforce international law under an international agreement.
>>69278865
It was an attempt at recreating the experiment. He thought Gamma rays were the Vita Rays Erskine used, an the key to making the serum work.
He was wrong.
>>69278865
What if this Coca-Cola ad is actually canon.
>>69268515
I think he knew. He just needed proof that Tony Stark would find convincing and emotionally compelling.
My problem is they went after the wrong person as being a terrorist, it was Wanda's fault for launching that guy into the hospital in the first place.
One of my biggest problems with the movie is that during the big fight scene at the empty air port Vision completely disappears for the duration of the fight until he needs to fuck up and cripple War Machine.
What the hell was he doing the whole time? How is it that Captain America, two people with no super powers (Black Widow and Hawkeye), along with Scarlet Witch, the winged dude and Ant-Man can take on Iron Man, Vision, War Machine, Spider Man, and Black Panther? I imagine they hid Vision for the entire fight because it would've been asinine for the most OP of all the characters (except maybe Scarlet Witch) to get thrashed by a bunch of second tier heroes.
>>69279527
They didn't want to diminish him by having him blatantly job, so they had him subtly sit it out. Blame it on him being too obsessed with Wanda and afraid to hurt anyone.
>>69279052
> just because one of their ranks got their powers from the Government, and started out as a soldier.
Ok, now you're just being completely dishonest, hence you didn't understand the hypocrisy.
Cap, Black Widow, Hawkeye and Fury all worked for the government.
Only Stark, Thor and Vision haven't.
Scarlet Witch worked for Hydra.
During the Avengers and AoU they all were directed by Fury who answered to a committee.
Did you see now why Cap suddenly being against government oversight is a bit hypocritical?
Saying that it was just Cap is another strawman though or maybe you just haven't seen the other movies. More than half worked for the government or for another organization with their own agendas.
If you still don't see the hypocrisy, there might actually be something wrong with your brain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF_3nuq7xFM
>>69268388
HAHAHA, BUCKY HIMSELF WANTS TO BE PUTED ON ICE IN THE AFTER CREDITS WOOOT
>>69279658
They failed at showing any of that until the end of the fight (and it only really made sense for him not killing her). Not to mention the fact that if he didn't want to hurt anyone he could've at least prevented them from hurting his 'team'. We also see him participating in the scene where they're all running at each other.
It was like a 15 or 20 minute fight scene and every cut I was like "Surely they're gonna show Vision now..." and it never came up. The whole rest of the movie felt massively cheapened because Iron Man's team gets steamrolled seemingly because the directors hid their strongest player for some reason. Even without Vision I can't believe that the fight would've turned out that way but ah well.
>>69268388
That's what he wanted anyway. He wanted to be put away until people could cleanse his brain of the brain washing. He should stay awake so they can at least try to fix him.
>movie is about a group of superhumans and super-skilled warriors duking it out over personal differences and causing massive destruction
Why do we even call them heroes at this point?
That's the biggest flaw.
>>69280120
>That's what he wanted anyway. He wanted to be put away until people could cleanse his brain of the brain washing.
Yea, that was also an ironic twist.
>Don't let them capture me!
>Put me away anyway.
Instead of fighting he could have just said that to begin with. But then we wouldn't have that fight and that's what puts butts in seats.
The movie was entertaining but it made as much sense as BvS.
kinda ironic cap's reasoning for not signing turned out to be for no reason
>>69279740
But I was never arguing from Cap's point of view, I outlined a plan
>>69273294
That is in line with the comics, in which they are answerable to the government to a degree, but get to make their own decisions. I said Cap has a point about the responsibility shift the Sokovia accords entailed, and why he had qualms about them.
and as for
>Did you see now why Cap suddenly being against government oversight is a bit hypocritical?
No, I don't. The circumstances were wildly different. If you noticed, Cap only ever obeyed a power structure if his own moral compass aligned with it closely enough. In TFA, he said "I don't like bullies. It doesn't matter where they're from," so he teamed up with the US government to try to take down Nazi germany, before finding out that there was an even more dangerous bully in HYDRA.
Remember in Winter Soldier when he said "I joined SHIELD to protect people", and got upset with Fury when he found out that Natasha's mission was more than just freeing the prisoners? He always chafes against Authority if it conflicts with his sense of Justice and morality.
He believed, based on what Ross said, that he would have to have every mission as an Avenger be decided by a UN panel overseen by people he never agreed to work under, hindering his ability to do what he thought was right.
Again, that's not my point of view, that's Cap's. But neither is hypocritical.
>>69280471
He didn't know he could still be triggered when he was running.
Once he found out he could be triggered again, they found out about Zemo's plan, or what they thought it was, and Bucky felt responsibility to stop it.
Thus, that mission finished he submitted himself to going under until he can be deprogrammed.
Pay attention the next time you watch a movie.
>>69280696
>If you noticed, Cap only ever obeyed a power structure if his own moral compass aligned with it closely enough.
There was no indication of the UN and Cap's moral compass not being aligned. So that point is moot. If anything the morality upheld by the UN was more responsible than Cap's because they accounted for negligence when Cap apparently doesn't.
You can't claim there would be a shift in responsibility while simultaneously you'd still be held accountable for your actions. Which was the whole point of the accords.
This is where the hypocrisy truly shines and shows that either Cap is literally saying he's "holier than thou" while not being constricted to any regulation that would hold him accountable in case of mishaps.
>>69267399
Marvel shills are on high. You can tell just by the difference in reaction to BvS and CW. It's bullshit. They were both brainless action films.
>>69281597
>You can't claim there would be a shift in responsibility while simultaneously you'd still be held accountable for your actions.
The thing is, they barely were. Tony did things that resulted in the destruction of a major city in eastern Europe, but he got away with it, mostly because he went along with what the accords said. As far as I can tell, it was less about accountability really, and more about control. There was very little evidence that there was a push to have Tony pay for all the property damage and make payments to the victims of his negligence and arrogance in creating something he couldn't control.
And with the Accords, the Avenger's actions aren't really up to them. For example, if a crisis is happening, and for whatever reason, the Avengers are not deployed to fix it, because those in charge don't think it aligns with whatever they're after, the Avengers can no longer be faulted for it, because they did what the law states, and any pressure over that decision rests with the decision-making body, and the Avengers get to keep their jobs even if something bad happens, as long as they're good little soldiers.
>>69267399
>I understand that he would get emotional but to disregard the brainwashing when you're in the room full of people who got brainwashed seemed so contrived.
I remember you posting this bait the other day almost verbatim
>>69281989
>They were both brainless action films
Yeah
Only BvS was a brainless action film that looked like SHIT and made even less sense than CW
>>69282092
>major villains whole reason for targeting avengers is because of something that happened only a year or so prior
>somehow manages to split them up in a year's time
>tony is in the wrong yet again
>people are still putting up with his shit
>they never really delve into why any of them choose the side they do
It was as equal to BvS in shit.
>>69282196
Nigger at least it looked good, and main villain had a coherent motive unlike DING DING DING
I literally just said this
>>69282282
Whatever you want to tell yourself, man.
>>69282317
Go fish for (You)s in >>69272497
>>69282395
yes massuh rite away massuh
The movie did not portray their arguments as well as people will imply. If any at all. In the movie, you're given more reasons and more perspective from Stark's point of view than you ever do with CA. Stark's reasoning/justification was his guilt of civilian causalities and feels that they owe it to the people to be watched and regulated. That theme is continually shown and expanded throughout the movie.
As for the scene of the UN confronting them showing them videos, I have no idea why they show the VILLAIN'S actions rather than the heros themselves. I for the love of god dont know why they didnt show Hulk vs Ironman with their destruction and I dont remember if they even blamed Stark for Ultron. If it was, it must've been a quick whiff.
CA's argument? All he literally said was that "The UN would use us for political agendas." Thats it. It was not expanded in the slightest. He had no motivation except for Bucky. The movie did not give any reason to think CA's side is more rightful than Stark's. All you literally needed to do was add about 30 seconds of dialogue pointing out the hypocrisy and corruption of the UN and exclaim that he will not sit and wait around watching people die as men in suits finish their wine to decide the victim's fate.
I give the movie a B- but its nowhere near as being as good as Winter Solider and saying as this movie is the best is ludicrous.
There is a lot more to be said such as Spiderman, playing it safe, and a few others.
>>69282484
>you're given more reasons and more perspective from Stark's point of view than you ever do with CA
>He had no motivation except for Bucky. The movie did not give any reason to think CA's side is more rightful than Stark's
That's because Cap was in the wrong and DIDN'T have any real reason besides "muh Bucky" but they wanted half of the audience to side with him
>>69282577
>>69282484
But CA was in the right the entirety of the movie. He knew it wasn't Buck from the outset. But Bucky aside, CA outlines why he has issue with the accords: Taking action without bureaucratic overhead, an imminent snowball affect of the restrictions and criminalization of heroes, and the removal of choice. All clearly outlined in a single scene but supported throughout the entire film.
>>69271630
The entire point, and something that the cinematic Superman movies have unknowningly sort of deconstructed, is that Superman /can't/ be Superman 24/7. They even explored this in a story where Batman got his powers and spent no resting moments not doing heroics until it drove him insane. That this Superman takes no time to look at his back and see his accomplishments have actually served to distance himself from the things he strives to defend: everyone is afraid of him because he hasn't made an effort to show that he's anything beyond Super Cop: I Am the Law!
>>69267636
>still triggered
Literally tumblrinas.
>>69282577
The fact that Cap. was both an ex-government agent and ex-SHIELD member and had first-hand experience how red tape costed countless lives?
I'm surprised he hasn't made a bigger fuss about how the UN's bureaucracy allowed the conduction of multiple genocides and that the Avengers would only be another layer to the blue-caps, forced to stand and watch atrocities happen without being allowed to act.
>>69282913
>I'm surprised he hasn't made a bigger fuss about how the UN's bureaucracy allowed the conduction of multiple genocides
That makes him a hypocrite then for saving Bucky, who could spontaneously go on a genocidal rampage by being literally triggered instead of being rubbed out for the welfare of the world.
>muh brainwashing
That doesn't excuse him from all the wars he started, the people he assassinated, and until Wakanda factored in there was no way to contain him except the freezer. For a guy who wants to do the right thing and save lives, Cap went full retard about his best buddy Bucky.
>>69282684
>CA outlines why he has issue with the accords: Taking action without bureaucratic overhead, an imminent snowball affect of the restrictions and criminalization of heroes, and the removal of choice.
That barely at all expressed throughout the movie. All it that was argued was implications and assumptions. We arent given any real reasons why we should side with CA at all. Especially over Stark where he actually gives reasons. The audience was given a emotional and moral reason to side with Stark. CA? Not so much.
>All clearly outlined in a single scene but supported throughout the entire film.
No it wasnt. At most, the UN gave Stark's team a time limit to detain Captain and Bucky and thats essentially it. We didnt see them commanding the Avengers to go attack a country based on a whim so that way we can doubt the UN but no, nothing.
>>69283083
>Thad's prison wasn't indicative of what was to come
please just quit. You're depressing as a human
>>69267399
Cap was just being smart. Like the government would believe the brainwashing story. There's literally a whole comic book storyline where Bucky goes to court to prove his innocence and that he was brainwashed and they extradite him to Russia where he's imprisoned in a gulag and only comes back to America when Black Widow breaks him out and Nick Fury fakes his death so he can operate in the shadows freely.
>>69283274
Nigger they had every reason to put them into fucking prison. They were literally protecting an assassin that has sparked wars and has killed a lot of important people. And on top of being the prime suspect of bombing the fucking UN council which is pretty they arent too fond of.
So yeah, you cant fucking blame them for wanting to imprison the people who's protecting a world wide terrorist. Your lack of perspective is baffling.
>>69267399
All valid points, but if that happened we wouldn't be able to see all our favorite Avengers fight in an airport, kek.
But in all seriousness, there would be no fighting in this movie if anyone said "Hey, can we talk about this a second? How about we Capture the Winter Soldier to figure out who is forcing him to do bad things, and when we are done, we can re-negotiate the accords."
>>69282577
>but they wanted half of the audience to side with him
No, they KNEW half the audience would side with him. See, the Russos and Markus and McFeely are smart. They knew that people would side more with Cap after Ultron, because he's got a nearly spotless track record overall, and because it's his movie. Just look at any poll done before the movie. They made Tony more right overall to balance the scales, as some of the people going into the movie with the expectation that Cap is right will stick with that assessment, and some will realize they agree with Iron Man more.
>>69283971
>But in all seriousness, there would be no fighting in this movie if anyone said "Hey, can we talk about this a second? How about we Capture the Winter Soldier to figure out who is forcing him to do bad things, and when we are done, we can re-negotiate the accords."
One of the main issue I feel was that it relied too much on Bucky being the main vocal point rather than the Sokovia Accords or the argument of Security vs Freedom which was hardly touched upon.
>>69284038
I dont know why the fuck they had Captain America in the title and not just have it as "Marvel: Civil War"
>>69280416
reminded me of all those new age heroes in kingdom come desu
Stark might be compliant now because of the guilt he feels, but we've seen this before, in Iron Man. And in Iron Man 2, he's right back to his cocky, individualistic self, sure he knows what's right, except now as a superhero. Even near the end of this movie, we see his trademark fuck-you attitude to authority come through, when he goes behind Ross's back to help Cap, and later, when he ignores Ross's call.
So how long until he ends up telling Ross and the UN to fuck off completely, and goes off to join up with Cap?
>>69284224
>I dont know why the fuck they had Captain America in the title and not just have it as "Marvel: Civil War"
I'm thinking it has something to do with Feige. See, Feige in interviews, seems most passionate about the concept of Civil War, and I believe him when he says he's wanted to do it for almost 10 years. Somehow, I get the feeling that "Infinity War" came from somewhere else. Probably not Whedon, as when he had Thanos in His Avengers movie, he was after the MCU Version of the Cosmic cube, and he just seems to like Thanos as a character. It wasn't until Thor 2 that they introduced the idea of Infinity Stones, and even more strangely, the Aether doesn't fit the idea of a "stone" or "gem" at all, so if I had to guess, the idea came about halfway through the production of Thor 2, and may have even been what got Patty Jenkins to leave.
But Feige wanted to have Civil War in there somewhere, so he put it in the hands of team he thought could handle it. A team big enough to balance it, and who had already made a movie with multiple heroes in it.
>>69284224
>One of the main issue I feel was that it relied too much on Bucky being the main vocal point rather than the Sokovia Accords or the argument of Security vs Freedom which was hardly touched upon.
Yup. I think in the interview with IGN and the Russos, they had put in Black Panther and his issue with the Winter Soldiers to drive/complicate the story. I think they were just trying to find a way to get Captain vs Ironman while also trying to check off things wanted by Disney. The Winter Soldier is the only reason Captain would drop any conversation with Tony or the Government on the issue of the Accords, it really just a bad plot device. They also wanted the team to still be broken up at the end, so by Thanos' arrival so it's more dramatic when they re-unite. This movie is entertaining, but doesn't really hold up when you analyze it.
>>69284224
>One of the main issue I feel was that it relied too much on Bucky being the main vocal point rather than the Sokovia Accords or the argument of Security vs Freedom which was hardly touched upon.
Very much this. Also, was the shoot-on-sight order only in place after the bombing?
>>69279527
I reckon Visions tried to intervene as little as possible precisely because he is too powerful. Remember, they weren't there to destroy some bad guys, but to try to contain some of their friends.
>>69282484
>The movie did not give any reason to think CA's side is more rightful than Stark's.
Cap was about to sign the accords, and then found that Stark was more or less putting Wanda in a comfy jail at home. That struck Cap the wrong way.
Considering that Ross had a superprision to put any "rogue" heroes prepped for the ocassion, he was right on that. Remember, Stark had no idea The Raft existed, so I too would be wary of what other surprises would come along the way.
AW HELL NAW
>>69284766
That still doesn't explain why when he does take action, it's the wrong actions. For instance, there's only one good reason for him to have destroyed the control tower instead of disabling the jet they were headed for:Plot.
>>69283971
>"Hey, can we talk about this a second?
Thing is, hadn't Zemo been influencing the events, that would have naturally happened.
>>69285020
The quinjet probably costs way more than the control tower, the guy is a machine after all and probably ran the numbers and determined that.
With the exception of vision Spiderman should be able to kill every single person in this movie with almost no effort whatsoever, even if they all came at him at once.
I
>>69285093
You can disable a jet without destroying it. You can also fly fast enough to overtake your opponents. The Vision can fly at Iron Man speeds at the very least, as was shown in AoU.
>>69283971
My biggest problem with it is the elapsed time between this, TWS, and AoU,
At the end of TWS, the Widow releases all of SHIELD's and Hydra's encrypted files and gives Steve a dossier on Bucky. Even if all Steve knew was that Hydra was involved in the Starks' deaths, that still means there's a good chance that Bucky was involved, too. Not telling Tony so he can wrap his head around it is the safe call, because at any moment, someone could decrypt that data and send Tony and email that makes both him and Natasha look like complete assholes for keeping their mouths shut.
Then there's the video itself. Its existence implies that Hydra not only saved a surveillance tape from nearly 30 years ago, but they also transferred it to digital and held onto it for no real good reason, as the only person it could possibly serve as leverage against was their own brainwashed operative.
>>69285295
>Not telling Tony so he can wrap his head around it is the safe call
I meant "Telling Tony is the safe call."
>>69284671
I dont mind Bucky being a big element to the movie and using him to introduce Black Panther, but he should not be the main driving force. I mean shit, have the Accord take effect and force Captain to retire but only to find out Captain is helping Bucky escape custody. Thus the UN making Stark and his team capture CA and Bucky which would allow us to see the enactment of the Accord and witnessing the outcome.
I was expecting to see a battle of ideals and philosophy. I was also expecting for someone to fucking die and using that character's death to end the Civil War whether it would be one of the main or side characters. I mean shit, im surprised CA didnt flip his shit that Stark recruited a fucking kid to fight for him. Theres another thing that would've been great. The UN forcing Stark to recruit Spiderman, who is a kid at the time, into his team and risk his life and then CA would call his shit out.
There is a lot of small elements that it painfully missed to make this a great movie that it was hyped up to be. Still much better than SvB by a long shot thats for sure.
>>69284992
>then found that Stark was more or less putting Wanda in a comfy jail at home. That struck Cap the wrong way.
You would have a good stance if the X-Men or the Xavior School exist in the MCU and Stark refusing to give her to them but thats not the case. No one but maybe Vision can grasp and contain her powers. So yes, she can pose a huge threat if she ever has a mental breakdown especially since she doesnt have complete control of her powers. She's the equivalent of The Hulk with psychic powers.
>>69267399
>its a capeshitter types out a fucking trilogy episode
how can you take this shit so seriously, it's a fucking super hero movie. You faggots are worse than /got/
>>69285295
The video wasn't transferred to digital, the movie shows it's an actual physical tape playing.
As for the why, you have to rememeber that while the outfit was infliltrated by Hydra and served their purposes, it was still a Soviet spy program, they most likely need proof of Bucky's actions to show to the higher ups at the Kremlin or whatever.
So how did Stark leave Germany, go to NYC, make spiderman a suit, then fly them back to Germany within 24 hours?
In fact how did Cap contact Barton, who then went to get Scarlet Bitch, then recruit Antman, then fly them to Germany in under 24 hours?
>>69285360
>she can pose a huge threat if she ever has a mental breakdown
They all can. Stark alone can probably solo the entirety of the US armed forces if he had time to prepare.
>but Wanda caused deaths
And Tony almost caused humanity to be destroyed with Ultron's creation.
Why would Wanda get the comfy jail time, but not Tony?
>>69285584
Dude he's Batman, stfu
>>69285584
Making Spidey's suit isn't a problem, given Stark's mad industrial production means. Hell, Friday probably did it by herself.
Whether you liked the movie or not, we can all agree Spider Man is a gigantic faggot. Seriously a HIGH school COMPUTER nerd, with a milf aunt. It's like reddit/rottentomato neckbeards wrote this fucking horseshit to jerk off to. Seriously why can't Marvel figure out one of the easiest characters in their lineup, 3 reboots, same with Hulk. Maybe they'll reboot the fantastic four a third time but call it a sequel with an entirely new cast.
>>69269578
Last I checked Hydra was trying to buy Yellowjacket, so obviously they're still around.
>>69285838
But Spider-Man is great, I don't see anything wrong with him here.
Are you sure you're just not jelly of Aunt To-May?
>>69285838
>Seriously a HIGH school COMPUTER nerd, with a milf aunt.
Spidey started as a high school science nerd with a oldass aunt.
So, to be that mad you either must hate computers, or hate milfs.
>>69267719
tHREAD
>>69285673
>They all can. Stark alone can probably solo the entirety of the US armed forces if he had time to prepare.
>And Tony almost caused humanity to be destroyed with Ultron's creation.
Which is one of the reasons why he agreed onto the accord in the first place. To give the people security while sacrificing his and the rest of his team's freedoms.
>Why would Wanda get the comfy jail time, but not Tony?
Stark and Vision's point of view was to protect her from people because of what she did. The UN's point of view was protecting the people from Scarlet.
And I dont even remember anybody even mentioning Stark creating Ultron. I know Stark himself referenced it and blaming himself for it but I dont remember anybody else. Which that and the Hulk vs Ironman fight would've been reasons enough but instead we're shown of villain's actions/destruction instead of the former.
Literally all this movie taught me is that this motherfucker right here has been the only believable villain so far.
I'm almost mad they killed him.
>>69286075
But he's Sony, not Marvel.
>>69269135
>>69269135
And then tony ask him again if he knew and then he says "yes"and that's when stark snaps!
The first time he asked was a very hesitant "no" cause cap didnt want to tell him he knew you fool.
Cap knew it was bucky who did it!
/tv/ cant even notice the most obvious of details
>>69286116
And maybe that's why.
>>69286075
Green Goblin?
>>69286045
>To give the people security while sacrificing his and the rest of his team's freedoms.
And Cap thinks that by sacrificing that freedom would compromise their ability to give people security. He makes a good point, what if the UN choses to send them to a place they don't want to go? Or denies intervention in a place that sorely needs it?
>>69286319
>denies intervention in a place that sorely needs it
That's more or less the standard course of action for the UN.
>>69270820
>He doesn't even ask why Bucky killed them, he doesn't ask who ordered the hit. Nothing. Nada. Zip.
>Everyone would want to know these things. The movie doesn't even allow for these questions to be asked. It's literally a plot hole in order to get Iron Man to fight Cap and Bucky.
No,anon, only nitpicking autist like you want to know these things and none of that shit matters.
STARK has been shown time and time again that hes a compulsive,egotistical,jackass/prick.
What he did was very in character
>>69286238
>>69271315
>I understand that it was a heat of the moment thing. But even after it all ended, the movie doesn't show Tony the least bit concerned about the people who ordered the hit.
It was FUCKING HYDRA YOU DUMBASS PLEB!
THE SAME PEOPLE WHO CREATED THE WINTER SOLDIERS AND THE SAME PEOPLE WHO GOT DESTROYED IN WINTER SOLIDER !
I FUCKING HATE THIS SHIT HOLE CALLED /TV/
>>69271694
>I remember someone saying "Hail Hydra" in the movie.
>>69271596
>there's only small cells here and there.
Read the post you fucking fuck stain
>>69286483
Fuck you
>>69267399
When your only criticisms are plot elements your criticism sucks.
>this movie sucks
>let me list nothing about the movie, only things about the wikipedia plot summary
This is why this board is fucking stupid. Many cases can be made for this film being shit but HURR DIS MAKE NO SENSE is not it.
You're all fucking dumb as shit.
>>69285838
>Seriously a HIGH school COMPUTER nerd
YEAH THATS WHAT SPIDER-MAN HAS BEEN SINCE LIKE FOREVER IN LIKE A GOOD CHUNK OF ALL OF HIS ALLITERATIONS!
>>69267399
Did cap REALLY knew Tony's parents died by the Winter Soldier?
Why did Cap get so emotional fighting iTony at the end?
>>69286660
>Why did Cap get so emotional
Because friends fighting friends is bad.
>>69286660
>Did cap REALLY knew Tony's parents died by the Winter Soldier?
Did you watch the fucking film?
>>69272521
>Cap and whoever sides with him are fucking lunatics. A bunch of superpowered freaks with the power to destroy entire cities should damn well be put under regulation.
So wrong it hurts.
You dont know shit about Cap
Read >>69280696
>>69286432
>I haven't seen Ant-Man
Hydra is still around, fuckhead.
>>69285838
>Seriously a HIGH school COMPUTER nerd
He has always been that, except it was chemistry, not computersbecause no one had personal computers yer, how do you miss 40 years of spider-man history faggot?
