In our previous discussion we established a link between Nietzschean philosophy (specifically his Übermensch), Kubrick, and Snyder’s Batman v Superman through the 2001: A Space Odyssey references present in the movie.
>>68992181
In this thread we’ll focus our attention on another connection Snyder establishes in his film with another of Kubrick’s work, Eyes Wide Shut, and Nietzsche’s Birth of Tragedy, where Nietzsche wrote that art is based on a critical balance of these two forces, analogizing it with sex.
>The further development of art is bound up with the duality of the Apollonian and the Dionysian, just as reproduction depends upon the duality of the sexes.
>>69128743
Apollonian and Dionysian are terms used by Nietzsche in The Birth of Tragedy to designate the two central principles in Greek culture. The Apollonian, which corresponds to Schopenhauer's principium individuationis("principle of individuation"), is the basis of all analytic distinctions. Everything that is part of the unique individuality of man or thing is Apollonian in character; all types of form or structure are Apollonian, since form serves to define or individualize that which is formed; thus, sculpture is the most Apollonian of the arts, since it relies entirely on form for its effect. Rational thought is also Apollonian since it is structured and makes distinctions.
The Dionysian, which corresponds roughly to Schopenhauer's conception of Will, is directly opposed to the Apollonian. Drunkenness and madness are Dionysian because they break down a man's individual character; all forms of enthusiasm and ecstasy are Dionysian, for in such states man gives up his individuality and submerges himself in a greater whole: music is the most Dionysian of the arts, since it appeals directly to man's instinctive, chaotic emotions and not to his formally reasoning mind.
Nietzsche believed that both forces were present in Greek tragedy, and that the true tragedy could only be produced by the tension between them. He used the names Apollonian and Dionysian for the two forces because Apollo, as the sun-god, represents light, clarity, and form, whereas Dionysus, as the wine-god, represents drunkenness and ecstasy.
>>69128763
Nietzsche's idea has been interpreted as an expression of fragmented consciousness or existential instability by a variety of modern and post-modern writers, especially Martin Heidegger, Michel Foucault and Gilles Deleuze. According to Peter Sloterdijk, the Dionysian and the Apollonian form a dialectic; they are contrasting, but Nietzsche does not mean one to be valued more than the other. Truth being primordial pain, our existential being is determined by the Dionysian/Apollonian dialectic, and man’s struggle to reconcile these two forces within him.
To understand Snyder’s discourse, first let’s briefly understand how Kubrick employed these themes in Eyes Wide Shut. A pivotal scene early in the movie is when Bill and Alice Hartford argue in bed because she’s offended because Bill believes that it’s only typical in men to display desire in other women. The scene sheds some light into Bill’s psyche, when he becomes visibly shaken to discover his spouse’s sexual fantasies, shaking up his own Apollonian and Dionysian internal turmoil. Throughout the film we witness how he’s unable to resolve his inner conflict, and ends up attending a forbidden meeting. Are we witnessing a ritual of Dionysian wildness or rather an Apollonian intervention, the imposition of social and religious protocol onto the pre-social gestures of sex? After his nocturnal escapades to quench his Dionysian thirst he’s left empty and dumbfounded. It is only through the comfort and mutual forgiveness with Alice that they’re able to move forward, now aware of the inescapable dichotomy inside them.
>>69128743
absolute shit thread because you think ironically trying to justify a movie is funny and it's not funny and everyone and their dog fucking hated Batman v Superman or at the very least acknowledge the plethora of problems. Stop trying to be funny, stop trying to meme, and stop tryning to do what ever this is. Sage goes in all fields, and I urge everyone not to respond to this shit thread so it can 404 fast.
>>69128777
The most obvious hint Snyder provides of these themes being present in Batman v Superman is the second meeting between Diana and Bruce; both of them are attending a high-society party comparable to the ones Alice and Bill frequent. It is during this event that Shostakovich’s Suite for Jazz Orchestra Waltz No. 2 plays, this piece is notable for being present in Eyes Wide Shut’s soundtrack. This first Dionysian clue manifests itself with the obvious sexual tension between Bruce and Diana, made evident the first time they glance at each other in Luthor’s charity event.
The characters
With the connection established, it gives us free reign to inspect the characters’ psyche with Nietzsche’s lense. It is clear that the three main characters, Clark, Bruce, and Lex’s motivations and actions stem from the Apollonian/Dionysian unresolved conflict.
Lex’s external demeanor hints at a belief that his actions against Clark are logical, even though his facial expressions and body language often betray him, revealing his resentment. Senator Finch sees through his façade…
>You won’t fool a fly or me.
...which is why he eliminates her.
Furthermore, Bruce also justifies his actions against Clark as logical.
>If there’s even a 1% chance that he’s our enemy, we have to take it as an absolute certainty.
However, throughout the film his psyche is explored, revealing his anger rooted in his parents’ death, and fear that he won’t be able to honor their legacy.
Finally, Clark’s discord arises from the fact that he feels himself morally obligated to protect. Notwithstanding, as Lois’ rescue in Africa reveals, when he attempts to protect his loved ones there’s often negative consequences.
>I don’t care [...] the woman I love could’ve been shot or killed.
>I don’t know if it’s possible for you to love me and be you.
>>69128793
Diana represents the character who has reconciled her Apollonian and Dionysian sides. She’s shown as her most Apollonian during her first interactions with Bruce, urging him to reconsider her as a friend, when his initial reaction was antagonizing her.
>It’s true what they say about little boys, born with no natural inclination to share.
Furthermore, her Dionysian side is shown through her demeanor and evident ecstasy in battle.
Ancient Greek art
During pivotal scenes where the Apollonian/Dionysian tragic conflict takes center stage, Snyder cleverly includes Greek allusions that mirror the characters’ frame of mind.
During the first confrontation between the main characters (Lex’s charity event), the painting behind Clark is A Balance Of Terror, it's about senseless violence between people based on arbitrary differences Bruce and Clark's fight is also ultimately senseless since underneath they both want to do good.
Ancient Greek architecture takes center stage too during Bruce and Diana’s second meeting, and during Clark and Bruce’s fight. The climactic scene, where everything revolves around the Kryptonite spear (again, phallic/sexual imagery which reconciles Apollo/Dionysius). Hearing Clark utter his mother’s name with his dying breath leaves him dumbfounded, enough for Lois to intervene and explain the situation. This cathartic moment helps Bruce reconcile with the fact that his actions weren’t truly rooted in logic, and his hatred could even be considered Oedipean in nature.
Similarly, Clark’s moment of catharsis comes later, again the spear and Greek architecture (scene takes place in same building of his confrontation with Bruce) take center stage. Drenched in water (symbol of emotion and purification), and contrasting with images of Doomsday wreaking fiery havoc from afar, he reconciles with the fact that his love for Lois is his true drive.
>This is my world. You are my world.
>>69128822
Music and Dionysius
Another strong point that Snyder emphasizes is the Dionysian nature of music. Shostakovich’s music has already been linked with Bruce and Diana’s relationship. Another interesting scene where music takes center stage is Lex’s charity event, where the band plays Sinatra’s Night and Day.
It’s interesting that lyrics of the song provide insight into all the characters.
>Night and day, you are the one/Only you ‘neath the moon or under the sun.
The dichotomic nature of these words not only mirror Lex’s speech on top of his tower, but provide hints to Bruce and Diana’s future relationship (as they share a glance the words “you are the one” are heard). This hints not only of a sexual relationship, but at her intervention that helps him reconcile his Apollonian/Dionysian conflict.
>Boys share too.
Another instance where music imparts its will unto the characters is during Lois’ kidnapping by the Russian Anatoly Knyazev. The song played on the background is Cole Porter’s E’vry Time We Say Goodbye I Die a Little. These words are whispered to Martha Kent by Anatoly (changing the “I” to “you”), revealing that his motivations for working as a hired mercenary have a sadistic underside.
Übermensch
As it has already been mentioned, Man of Steel dealt with the birth of Superman. Conversely, Batman v Superman deals with the progression from child to man. It can be argued that Snyder’s intentions with the inclusion of this internal conflict is to prove that the Overman of his films first needs to resolve his Apollonian/Dionysian conflict in order to take the next step.
>>69128743
doesn't superman's morality and faith in humanity make him a polar opposite of nietzche's superman?
his entire ethically code nietzche railed against
they never show who is in bruce's bed next to him in that one scene
should we assume it's WW?
>>69129051
It's Selina
>>69129596
oh fuck
does that mean it's possible to make it fits within the continuity of the nolan trilogy?
casting aside, of course
>>69129841not literally. but the movie functions in a way that addresses not only the movies but comic history as well
>dc
>damage control
>>69128920
I agree. If anyone represented Nietzsche's Ubermensch, it was the kryptonian criminals from Man of Steel. Faora's musings about the obsolescence of morality summed it up quite nicely.
However, Superman is Nietzsche's Ubermensch in the sense that he is in every overt manner a being superior to humans. It is the fact that he refuses to view himself as such and adheres to a moral code that makes him a hero. Too often, people forget that a being presented as being as powerful as he is evinces heroism in every moment of his life that he spends not imposing his will on humanity as he so easily could.
In other words, rescuing people and foiling villains is just the bonus. He's a hero by simple virtue of not allowing humanity to make of him some God Emperor.
>>69129841
>mfw they bring back Michelle Pfeiffer as Selina
What if all movies are for Plebs, and the true artistic well done movies we never get to see. I mean the movies they fix, or re shoot, or purposely make intelligent because the masses can't really comprehend. Maybe even multiple versions. Mad Max had a few versions we never saw, a musical, and black and white version. The Illuminati seemed to give it enough awards.
Why every movie seems to always fall short of perfection, even though it could easily be fixed. Maybe not in the 80's but now with CGI we can do it. Hell even youtube guys make some quality movies with a budget that would be crafts budget alone.
So in short, we're all complaining about which pleb material is the least plebeian. Couldn't have Batman v. Superman doing TOO good, it will actually depreciate all other movies. It would make the plebs demand a better type of movies, with big names and action and actors.
>>69130185
I don't think there necessarily has to be a cabal at the heart of it to make big film companies produce mediocre films. Corporate committee mentality, focus groups, test audiences, and the pervasive cynicism that has worked its way into the industry do a fine job of that on their own.
That's what makes it all the more remarkable when a film comes along from a major company that actually does challenge the viewer and perhaps even leads some into thoughtful introspection.
>>69128822
>phallic/sexual imagery which reconciles Apollo/Dionysius
ohhhhhhhhh
yeah i knew it was a phallic representation of will but wasn't sure about it's full connection between characters
this makes sense of it being the first thing introduced in the movie
>>69130326
It's what help make the pleb tier films, but how hard is it to make alternatives that don't suck the entire life, especially with CGI as realistic and easy to do.
Not to derail the discussion, but as I'm a fan of making what are essentially "cape universe generals" in lieu of starting new threads, what are everyone's thoughts on the "First Contact" angle of these two films?
I personally believe that the Kryptonians are going to turn out to be the "Ancient Aliens" of DC earth and be the source of the metagene. I don't think it was an accident that the camera focused in on that empty hibernation pod on the scout ship.
>>69128847
Ev'ry time we say goodbye I die a little
Ev'ry time we say goodbye I wonder why a little
Why the gods above me who must be in the know
think so little of me they allow you to go.
When you're near there's such an air of spring about it
I can hear a lark somewhere begin to sing about it
there's no love finer, but how strange the change from
major to minor
>>69128743
>literally half this thread is samefagging
1.jpgfag really should just kill himself
>>69130878
Who exactly *is* 1.jpg? I've seen that tossed around, but haven't deciphered which side of the discussion he's supposed to be on.
>>69130827
people have gotten mad at me for saying that that isn't a confirmation of ancient alien interaction
my thinking is they left it open to later use
and yeah it's interesting, the whole forced to see formulate a literal alien agent as an other, even if in this case the alien looks just like us
>>69130988
Something I noticed, or at least seemed to notice, is that when Clark first melts his way down to the ship, he doesn't seem to have to force his way inside it.
Did you notice anything along those lines or did I just somehow miss that moment?
>>69131084
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEcOPYD919Q
seems to me like the door is open
there's a prequel comic, maybe it has answers
>>69131220
>there's a prequel comic
They're never canon.
>>69131220
Yup. Looks like an ice-covered ramp descending from it.
"The basis for our myths. Gods walking among us,"
>>69129124
What?
Batman and then Übermensch had compared several times, That's kinda the whole point of his duality with superman
>>69131238
well who knows
the mos one explains the story of that ship if you're interested
>>69131312
I am very much interested. Got a link handy?
>>69131373
i don't remember how focused it is on relevant logistics
http://imgur.com/a/mMCZm
>>69131373
Thanks!
>Bruce's parents are buried next to each other (sex)
>Little Bruce runs away (sperm)
>falls down a hole (vagina)
>into a dark cave (womb)
>bats lift him up towards the light (birth)
The bats literally give birth to Batman as he is born from inside the earth to fight the man born from the sky.
>marvel civil war discussion
>DUDE SPIDER-MAN XD
>quips!!!
>LOL IM SUCH A NERD OMG
>>69131470
So potentially ancient caveman Supergirl. I am just so OK with this in concept.
Snyder did an amazing job masquerading this amazing piece of intellectual enlightenment as shallow piece of industry driven bullshit only 10 people on the earth can recognize as high art.
>>69132235
I hold out hope that more people will wake up to what's there. I'm not one of those who goes full Kubrick with it, but there's an attention to detail and some subtexts going on that I admire him for having the courage to work in.
My only real criticism remains in the editing.
>>69128743
These threads reminds me how much I miss Anvil Hoarder threads
>>69128743
ITT: mad DCucks in denial
Birthday thread for Henry Cavill
>>69132508
>>69132893
