>Catelyn is annoyed of Renly's arrogance and scolds him for not remember his brother Stannis, but she stops because she remembers that Renly is a king. Renly thinks the names are meaningless, so he accepts that Robb can continue calling himself King in the North, provided he bends the knee to him and recognize him as King of the Seven Kingdoms, thus making Robb's title nothing.
>Renly refuses this. He plans to destroy Stannis' army the next day and talks of how his forces will kill Stannis. When Stannis tells her the story of his investigations with Jon Arryn, Catelyn realises the truth of Stannis' claim and the reason of the deaths of Jon and Eddard, and asks to return to her son, but Renly refuses, intending her to see him destroy Stannis' army so she can tell Robb what will happen he refuses to bend the knee. When Catelyn suggests calling a Great Council to publicize the illegitimacy of Joffrey and let the lords decide who the true King is, Renly refuses the suggestion. Renly orders to live Stannis' body alone after he's killed, as he doesn't want to see a Baratheon mutilated.
In the show Renly states:
>Would you believe.... I loved him once. (About Stannis)
>Catelyn is fine and dandy with him and soesn't scold him
>Renly doesn't threaten Cat or explicitly says that he wants to kill Stannis
Why these difference between book and tv show?
>>71733605
Bump
Because D&D hate Stannis and couldn't possibly portray the gay guy as evil, that would upset the liberaltard audience.
>>71733605
Because the books pander to humans. The tv show is forced to pander to negroes.
>>71733605
Didn't they make him weirdly pro democracy if I'm remembering the 1st season right. It's a shame because in the books I think he's probably the most sensible person in the Capital when Rob's dying.
>>71733963
Can you be serious for once?
Because D&D don't like complicated characters.They want to tell a tale of good guys and bad guys.
>>71733605
Beacuse in the show both Renly and Loras are just walking gay stereotypes. Can't have them have any character traits beside sucking cock. I'm still mad.
>>71736166
> /pol/ and /tv/ think that the show panders to liberals
Meanwhile, liberals are mad about women being utterly devoid of agency (Sansa, Yara) or being crazy toxic murderes (Sand snakes), rape being used for cheap shock, gays being reduced to stereotypes and other bullshit.
Don't realize what I mean? Look to how often '''empowered''' women wait until man's approval to do things. For example, Sansa needs Podrick's help to remember how to accept an oath of fealty (keep in mind that Sansa is a nobleborn woman obssessed with nobility, songs and rituals), then needs Theon's nod to actually accept Brienne. Then Yara needs Theon to speak for her at the Moot. Then Sansa, an actual, living heir to Winterfell, gets passed over as Jon becomes a king in the north.
>>71736416
>Don't realize what I mean?
Yeah, that the show is so shit it can't even decide who it panders to. Or rather it's le trolling genius, I don't know. Get both sides mad, but still all over your shit. Teach me your ways, o devious Dabid&Dabid senpais.
>>71736416
it's never enough for these faggots
what would it actually take for these retards to be satisfied with a TV show?
normal women won't do it, murderqueens won't do it, supernaturally gifted women won't do it, what the fuck do they want?
>>71737620
We'll written characters.
I, unlike you, don't lick shit off of the floor and tell my friends how good it is and get mad when they don't agree.
>>71733605
Isn't Renly more retarded in the books? People give him shit for not taking anything seriously and makes retarded jokes with CIA and Tyrion. But in the show they make him serious. What happened?
>>71739354
He's more masculine in the books.
I hated that they changed this, it was so interesting in the books. Instead they just make Renly look more blandly noble and Stannis even more of an asshole. Not to mention Renly's death is so mediocre
>>71733605
They needed another gay character for more gay sex scenes. And you can't have a gay character be shown in such an aggressive light.
>>71740850
>Not to mention Renly's death is so mediocre
Why? How was it in the books?
>>71741029
It's actually pretty similar to how it goes down to the books, it just feels very anticlimactic and weightless given how much the character was built up. Also it doesn't help that Brienne kills Renly's guards immediately afterward - even if she was defending herself, the fact that she bothers to kill all of them is very contrary to her character
>>71737718
If you want well written characters, the first thing to do is not making a doomed to failure attempt at pushing feminism into a medieval story.
>>71741198
It was Loras that killed the guards, right? One of like 3 clues we had that they loved one another. I also loved the line he said to Sansa in regards to someone he loved. Something like "what's the light of a candle when your sun has gone out?" real great and subtle writing. Not a literal dick sucking scene so the retarded viewers can get it
>>71741460
Lol show me examples of Feminism being pushed in the books or show. Literally every gender has characters that are shit on and characters that do well. You're just trying to find a boogeyman that's not there friendo
>>71741674
That's pretty much the consensus among liberal medias.
https://mic.com/articles/146562/game-of-thrones-season-6-is-the-most-feminist-of-all-and-here-s-why#.i3W7bQ2VU
http://nypost.com/2016/06/24/was-game-of-thrones-a-feminist-fable-all-along/
http://www.cosmopolitan.com.au/health-lifestyle/lifestyle/2016/6/most-feminist-moments-from-game-of-thrones-season-6/
http://www.bustle.com/articles/171065-how-game-of-thrones-became-one-of-the-most-feminist-shows-on-tv
Again this makes little sense in a medieval setting. Though that's not the only thing that doesn't make sense unfortunately.
>>71741622
Loras is easily one of the most butchered by the show characters
>>71741935
>frikken
>desu
I want these people to die
>>71741935
>liberal medias
I don't know your position bruh, but its just not there, even if the show wants it to be. All the characters you could claim to be powerful feminist characters are either held up by men making good decisions for them, or they're...wait no, it's just women with men making decisions for them. Except for Brienne, who is literally a she hulk in the show. I agree though, it's weird that women have a prominent role in that time period, but "muh fantasy"
>>71734357
yeah, honestly he's easily the most reasonable king in the books. He just seems like a pretty smart likable guy who's also humble.
In the show he's this tiny goof ball, with a bad attitude.
Because in the books Renly is just man that happens to be gay.
In the shows they have to make the fact his is gay his main character trait.
>>71742352
I argue that the Unholy Trinity of butchered characters is Littlefinger, Loras, and Stannis.
>>71739354
He does what everyone else does in court, wears a persona to mask his intentions
No one will think the dumb ass cracking jokes is a threat
>>71740984
He's gay in the books, it's just not as explicit.
>>71743309
He was a goofball in the series, because he was a goof in the books. All his dialogue is straight from the books.
He was still democratic, as in, he agreed to the terms Catelyn presented him.
>>71745022
Why. WHY did D&D use their awful interpretation of Stannis as their canon version? They made him so stupid, whereas his book counterpart is head strong, but intelligent? He's literally right 95% of the time in the books. Also, will his daughter actually burn in the books?
>>71745381
>will his daughter actually burn in the books?
it may very well be a twist that she wont burn or is going to be saved from the pyre at the last minute
grrm promised a twist consirning a character dead in the show but alive in the books
>>71745022
why did they make CIA change his accent as littlefinger? in the early seasons he was fine, now he sounds like a parody of a cartoon villain
because he's gay and he can't be evil
>>71733874
Except D&D actually portrayed Renly as evil in the show.
In the show, he knows about the incest before anyone yet doesn't do anything about it, even worse, he plots to take the Throne from Robert before he is even dead. Not only that, but he clearly knows that Stannis is the rightful heir, and yet still tries to claim the Throne for himself.
Meanwhile, in the books, while he is a bully, he's also the last person to stay with Robert until his death. He is not aware of the incest, and thus the only reason he declares against Joffrey, the rightful King, is out of self-preservation after it is made clear that Joff's reign is going to be deadly for anyone who opposed the Lannisters in the past. (Such as himself)
You're a complete moron if you think he was portrayed as "good" in the show, he's a first class traitor, while the book version of the character pretty much did nothing wrong.
>>71745022
I would Oberyns mistress up there too, but the entire Dorne plot and everything related to it is so butchered at this point that its better to ignore that shit
Yeah Renly and Stannis were both the antagonists in the second book for sure considering they threatened the characters everyone liked i.e. the Starks and Tyrion. The difference is Renly's antagonism is hidden behind his charisma and charm whereas stannis is blunt and honest about his intentions. It's kind of interesting how casual show watchers and book readers didnt pick up on this and love Renly and think he would have been the perfect king, whereas the more hardcore fans for lack of a better word understand stan and see through renly's shallowness. It is equally interesting how D&D were completely oblivious to Renly's more duplicitous qualities and white washed him, while at the same time demonizing stannis to the point of ridiculousness.
>>71747592
Renly would have made a better King, though.
Not because he was just, or magnanimous, or progressive, but because he had the manpower to restore order and the temperament to keep peace. I'm not sure D&D demonizing Stannis is right either, they pretty much absolved him of any responsibility he had in Robert's death in the books.
>>71747712
He may have been a good king in theory, but the big issue is the precedent he sets by simply siding with the most powerful house (manpower wise) and taking it. this throws familial ties in westeros completely out the window and would negatively effect the royal family for years to come. Any of renly's "heirs" could have a viable claim on the throne because their father took it by force rather than A) Inheriting it as heir or B) Having the majority of the great houses agree that he should be king, as Robert did. There might be peace at the beginning of Renly's rule, but as soon as he has a few kids there would be civil war. And this would also affect the other noble houses of westeros. If Renly takes the throne because he has the biggest army, any other up jumped third born son could hire a bunch of mercenaries and take over his fathers keep, and it would be completely reasonable because the fucking king himself did it. Not to mention his entire power base lies with the tyrells who have their own schemes and the storm lords, who, in the book, some have switched sides 4 times since the start of the series.
>>71747996
Any precedent he'd set has already been set in the past by Robert, and would have been set by Stannis as well considering everyone simply thought the whole incest thing was a self-serving lie.
The only difference between Renly's rebellion and Robert's rebellion is that Renly acted before Joffrey/Cersei called for his head, but we know from Cersei's PoV that his fears were well-founded.
There is nothing wrong with cutting a deal with the Tyrells either, they seem loyal to Renly and willing to share power with him. If anything, Renly sets himself up far better than Robert did or Stannis could by having his closest allies (who are genuinely fond of him) be the strongest House in all of Westeros. As for the Stormlords, the only reason the keep flip-flopping is because once Renly dies, they have no set leadership and do not know what to do, their chronic switching of sides is perfectly understandable.
>>71745022
>completely overlooking "big cawk" Euron who's supposed to be a major power player next season
>>71741674
Marry Sue leadd an army of castrated men whilst Ser Beta fawns over her.
>>71748242
Except Robert had the backing of the Tullys, Arryns, Starks, and some of the loyal Storm Lords. Robert's rebellion was backed by the entire northern half of westeros and the people who were leading those houses were unquestionably loyal to Robert. Robert's war was justified (at least the overthrowing of the mad king part of it) because the man was a lunatic who kept burning his lords alive and wasnt likely to stop. His reign had to end for the safety of the realm. The Tyrells back Renly because he was probably going to win, and it wasn't a particularly well thought out plan to begin with. Olenna explains that Mace was the one who thought of the alliance because he most of all wants to see his grand children on the Iron Throne. Olenna herself think s the alliance probably could have been a bit more well thought out and she is definitely the brains behind house Tyrell. The point is the Tyrells and Renly by extension are driven purely by ambition whereas Bobby's rebellion was driven by noble causes and self defense. A Tyrell/Renly alliance would have ended the same way as the Lannister/Robert alliance. And I don't buy the Renly was acting in self defense argument. He easily could have declared for Joffrey and hid in Storm's end or declared for Stannis and unified the Storm Lands. Making a power play for the throne was a move purely driven ambition. I don't think Robert was completely justified in taking the throne, but he undoubtedly had a better power base and motive than Renly ever did.
>>71748909
Robb could have easily been forced to bend the knee, and then Renly would have had just as much support as Robert, if not more. The war had just started too, more people could have eventually joined his side, as Tully did with Robert after being given the two marriages he wanted, or as Tywin did after taking the capital.
Considering both plans Renly has to protect himself from the Lannisters don't end in him gaining that much power, I'd say it's ridiculous that his third attempt to limit their power (crowning himself in the process) is NOW fueled by ambition. Self-preservation is the reason he crowned himself, man. Renly bending the knee to Joffrey would have done nothing, Cersei was already plotting to kill him and Joffrey absolutely loathes him as well.
The Baratheon-Tyrell marriage would have never ended the same way Cersei and Robert's marriage had either, Mace is very fond of Renly, as is Margaery, and as is obviously Loras. Not only that, but Renly lacks the flaws Robert had that led to the marriage being a disaster, and Marge lacks Cersei's.
GoT is homophobic as fuck so all the gay men had to be prancing poofters.
Which Renly sort of was, but they took away his nuance of being charming and kind to his lords, which is why he was so beloved (also because he was weak and easily manipulated, but they cut that out too).
The biggest problem is that the writers seem to believe that Renly would have genuinely been the best king.
>>71749331
>Robb could have easily been forced to bend the knee, and then Renly would have had just as much support as Robert
Difference: Robert never forced anyone to support him.
And that's an important difference.
>>71745022
You can literally pinpoint the second Littlefinger's character goes off the rails
>Pic related
>>71749331
If Renly had supported Stannis he would have been Stannis' heir. The likelihood of Stannis having more children is slim and Renly would have had a better claim than whatever lord married Shireen. If Renly had been patient he could have had everything he wanted.
>>71750025
The Tyrells outright hate Stannis, and he hates them back.
Renly supporting Stannis mean they switch sides anyways and pretty much nothing changes.
>>71750093
The Tyrells also hate the Lannisters, they'll play the game, and Stannis will too if needed. Stannis names Renly his heir and agrees to wed him to Margaery. Same result, Mace's grandkids will still sit the Iron Throne, they just have to be patient.
If Renly hadn't gone off half-cocked an arrangement could have been made.
>>71750199
The Tyrells didn't initially hate the Lannisters, Cersei and Joffrey acting like morons is what led to their relationship deteriorating.
The notion that Stannis couldn't father an heir is also ridiculous, he's in his mid-thirties, he still has plenty of time to father a son.
>>71749331
Robb is fully committed to independence at this point wouldn't have bent the knee and no other great houses would have supported Renly. The Greyjoys are planning their independence as Renly dies, the Arryns will continue to be isolationists even if they offer token support, the Lannisters are obviously out of the question, Dorne might declare for renly when he kills the lannisters but I doubt they would ever fight for the usurpers brother. And the crownlands and the stormlords will continue to be fragmented and confused about who their rightful ruler should be. Again, Renly has no power base and his plan is not particularly well thought out.
>>71733605
>>71750272
>The notion that Stannis couldn't father an heir is also ridiculous, he's in his mid-thirties, he still has plenty of time to father a son.
Not on Selyse, whose womb was weak, and Stannis is too proud a man to set her aside and take another wife.
>>71750344
Selyse's womb wasn't weak, it simply wasn't visited by her "dutiful" husband nearly enough.
>Subject: Why did they change Loras so much?
FTFY OP, no charge.
It's not even about changes. PJ made plenty of changes to LotR, and for the majority the bad changes were eventually reversed, and the good changes are so good you don't even care.
D&D are complete talentless hacks. Renly wasn't even the worst offender. The series has been fucked to hell and back and should've never been adapted in the first place.
Tolkien considered LotR unfilmable, and for the most part I think he was right. One of the toughest sequences to put to film was The Council of Elrond.
ASOIAF is just The Council of Elrond for 5,000 odd pages, 2,000 of which have major character development.
1,500 of those 2,000 pages have been cut from the show.
ASOIAF should have never been put to film. It just doesn't work, it's scale and dialogue is just too ridiculous to adapt in one clean sweep, but D&D went for it anyway because they don't care if it's clean. They dirtied the pool, made their money, and now they're tying up loose ends and getting out because they're a pair of scumbags.
If ASOIAF was ever to be adapted, it should've been as sporadic as the book releases. 1 year between productions is fucking ridiculous, and the quality drop is evident of that.I'm spitballing on the number of pages, but you get the point
>>71750571
It's not D&D's fault GRRM is a lazy fat fuck that can't be arsed finishing the series.
GRRM giving D&D the general outline of how ASOIAF ends combined with doing nothing to finish the series basically gave D&D carte blanche to do whatever they wanted, as long as they kept to the outlined ending.
>If ASOIAF was ever to be adapted, it should've been as sporadic as the book releases
lmao, hiatus usually means death for tv shows
>>71745250
>He was a goofball in the series, because he was a goof in the books. All his dialogue is straight from the books.
In the books I always find him to be a combination of pragmatic/self-serving
his plans develop as
1. The Lannisters hate me, probably want me dead - Try and establish a regency council with my brothers best friend, by seizing control of the heir, and making it so Tywin can't march on me as I have a hostage.
2. OK Stark's are idiots, head South, think of a new plan.
Somewhere on the ride South he decides the only way to survive is to mount a rebellion, with the North already certain to rebel. and a firm Tyrell alliance as he's fucking Mace's favourite son+engaged to his daughter, and the Lannister's already at war he has pretty good chance of winning the war.
>Renly becomes the King, marriage pact with the Reach still intact
>Stannis uses his military expertise to make sure that happens
good idea y/n
>>71751549
>Stannis uses his military expertise to make sure that happens
Make sure what happens? As far as dynastic politics go the Baratheon-Tyrell alliance is about as secure as you can get. How many more family members can Renly sleep with?
>>71751757
I meant Stannis is the overall leader of the joint family forces along with Tarly.
>>71751806
>I meant Stannis is the overall leader of the joint family forces along with Tarly.
Oh I'm with you now, fairly stable I'd think. Renly would be happy with a crown, just give Mace enough Royal offices to shut him up. I think the main resistance would come from Stannis and his right to the throne. Ironically it would have been the best settlement to the war.
>>71743309
>ignores all laws of succession which ensure realm stability
>thinks he'd be a good king purely out of vanity
>has never done a hard days ruling or warring in his life
>is dismissive of power vassals like the Starks
Somehow you call him reasonable.
>>71751935
Thats the way I see it too. Stannis needs to realize that he isnt as loved as Renly, and that even though he is the rightful king when it comes to succession killing your brother and siding another army against you is a fucking stupid idea when it comes to the family house living on.
>>71751960
>ignores all laws of succession which ensure realm stability
He starts his rebellion against Joffrey, I doubt he even believes the illegitimacy claims.
>thinks he'd be a good king purely out of vanity
He was popular enough in the Stormlands that they followed him to war
>is dismissive of power vassals like the Starks
He tries to deal with Ned without claiming the throne, he's only dismissive of the Stark's later, when they're in open rebellion and recognising them would damage his cause.
>>71752245
>start rebellion against Joffrey without even believing illegitimacy claims
This is the kind of decision that could sow instability. Also, that still doesn't give him the right to put himself forward as king over Stannis.
If he was so confident in his popularity versus Stannis then he should've started a rebellion to call a great council.
>was popular in Stormlands
No he wasn't. They were obligated to follow him as he was their liege. He was popular with the Tyrells, not the Stormlords.
As soon as Renly died the Stormlanders switched to Stannis as they'd probably always wanted to whilst the Tyrells kept their 'loyalty' and ran.
>tried to make deals with Ned
He was dismissive of Ned as a person and didn't respect his opinion in matters of law and honour, he just wanted Ned's power.
When it came to Robb he off-handedly was like Robb will be my bitch but he can call himself a pimp if he wants. He didn't even consider negotiation.
>>71745481
>grrm promised a twist consirning a character dead in the show but alive in the books
>mfw the twist is that they die anyway
