So, humanity in Star Trek is run by Starfleet, which is a completely self-appointing entity, yes?
Like, there are vague references to the "world government", but when it comes to hashing out treaties, war, and other matters of interstellar governing all the decisions are made by Starfleet. I don't remember any episodes where somebody mentions having to answer to any officials or voters outsider of the Starfleet command.
Being that Starfleet officers make up the command, and they all go through Starfleet academy, the leadership and governance is wholly within that organization.
So, democracy or answering to the people who don't deciate themselves to the cause of Starfleet is dead in this universe?
Starfleet is not owned by earth or "humanity".
Starfleet under the jurisdiction of the United Federation of Planets, of which Earth is one of many participating members.
Not all humans, or even terran starship captains, are members of Starfleet.
Alien worlds are not required to join the United Federation of Planets. Aid is dispensed to non-member worlds frequently.
tldr try harder you sad nerd
>>71477639
Ok, so let's say you're a pleb on Earth. You don't get any sort of a say in effecting how humanity handles matters of interstellar governing? Pretty much the only way to have a voice on policy would be to join Starfleet and become a high ranking officer?
>>71477785
Earth has its own government. It isn't owned by Starfleet.
>>71477917
Then how come the Earth government seemingly shows no interest in interacting with Starfleet or with handling interstellar diplomacy itself? Interstellar relations with alien species is a highly important matter for security, trade, and science, yet I can't remember a single occasion when an earth government representative showed any interest in this. For all intents and purposes, Starfleet handles all those matters.
Starfleet also has a huge base of operations on and around earth, and not once does it ever seem to need to check in with the Earth government.
>>71477510
>>71477639
>>71477785
>>71477917
>>71478145
>>71478145
>yet I can't remember a single occasion when an earth government representative showed any interest in this.
The fact that you can't pay attention to a simple scifi adventure show is your own fault. Delete this thread immediately.
>>71478145
You are wrong and have either not paid any attention or not seen much star trek at all.
>>71478352
That dude was a Federation diplomat, not one sent by the earth government.
>>71478407
Ok, when does the earth government come into play? All the diplomacy is either seat of the pants by starfleet captains, or sent from the Federation. When does the earth government act autonomously?
>>71478487
It doesn't, star fleet has been appointed by the government to deal with all off world matters.
>>71478708
so the original question:
>So, democracy or answering to the people who don't dedicate themselves to the cause of Starfleet is dead in this universe?
Is answered that all interstellar governing matters, even ones that may directly effect earth, are handled by people in appointed positions, and that no average outside of Starfleet has any real say in terms of voting?
>>71478829
What matters?
Most of earth problems have been solved.
The only matters would be to do with an invasion of earth of something.
You actually think all of this hasn't been thought through by the creators?
>>71478829
Earth citizens vote on whether or not to remain in the Federation.
Earth citizens are happy with how the Federation handles affairs, so Earth citizens vote to remain in the Federation.
>>71478352
This. Please delete the thread OP
>>71478145
It's possible planetary governance is to the UFOP council (and it's military arm, star fleet) as a county government in the US is to a state government. They handle local laws and ordinances about very mundane matters, but all the important decisions are done at the state level. This makes sense as the majority of a government's job is conflict resolution and Earth has very little conflict due to no lack of resources and a peaceful, some might say complacent, population.
This is actually addressed in DS9, where they deal with Earth being a very nice place to live, but being extremely passive and unprepared to defend itself. Unfortunately we only see the president of the Federation in those episodes, rather than whoever is in charge of Earth specifically. Given that he keeps his offices on Earth despite being an alien, perhaps Earth is governed by the UFOP Council directly, the way Washington DC is administered by the US Congress.
Earth is sort of the showcase world of the Federation, so everyone in power has an interest in making sure it is as peaceful and lovely as possible so they can show off how great life in the UFOP is.
>>71477510
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z760XNy4VM
For all intents and purposes, Earth should not even be populated anymore. Living in complete utopia with no requirements for work or struggle will fuck a society up to the point that nobody socializes or breeds (see Japan.)
>>71477510
because Star Trek is Gene Rodenkikes socialist propaganda
Democracy and Socialism do not mix
>>71478886
THis.
Thats the whole thing about it, it is not like the EU or any 'club of nations' on earth it is not like that at all, this is post scarcity, most problems we have on earth now are generated by scarcity. The average joe can be NEET and fucking live in a holofantasy with his waifu his entire life or you can run a restaurant if thats what you want, not to make money but because you care about food.
>>71479082
>and it's military arm, star fleet
Starfleet is not a military organization. Have you not paid attention at all.
>>71478909
TERREXIT WHEN
>>71479206
>the only way to live is to struggle
What a meme.
You are trying to say japans population is decline because people don't have to work or struggle there? are you crazy? Why do you think japan is post scarcity?
>>71479236
You know the show's say over and over again that Starfleet is not a military organization, but it seems that on very short notice it sure can turn into one. When there is talk of a war going hot between the UFP and somebody, it's always Starfleet ships at the forefront. It's always Starfleet ships going toe to toe with alien military ships.
Starfleet is a military organization with the trappings of not being one.
>>71477510
I always assumed it was a military dictatorship and the captains we see are just laughably naive about the whole thing desu
It would explain the existence of S31
>>71478145
It's like the USA. Kentucky doesn't get decide its own foreign policy, but it benefits from being a part of the US in a number of ways.
The kike who made it just wanted to promote a Communist and Jewish One World Government, dont think too hard about it
>>71480229
You're actually being more of a try-hard than people who post in /pol/ Trek threads.
You elect people to the Federation council who then determine treaties.
Imagine a planet as a current state or county.
They have elected politician who try to do the best for their constituents.
Starfleet is the research and military arm of the Federation only.
>There are people who have apparently watched Star Trek and don't know the difference between The Federation and Starfleet
smdh
>>71480322
Not an argument
>>71480322
Cry more, Trektard.
>>71480394
What argument is there? It's a work of fantasy idealism meant to portray a humanity that can in no way exist today due to scarcity, it's not that deep. It's perfectly fine to have an ideal in your mind so long as you're realistic about it's practical application and limits.
>>71480407
Awwwww, look at the cute widdle edgelord bored on his computer because he's on summer break! A coochie coochie coo! A coochie coochie coo!
>>71479429
>Why do you think japan is post scarcity?
The thing is that Japan has a huge population of NEETs (by literal definition, not the r9k meme term.) For somebody living completely off of government assistance or the money of another family member, they are essentially living in a post-scarcity world. Couple this with the variety of sexual entertainment that Japan is known for (See vice's documentary about the "Love Industry")
A citizen of Earth in Star Trek would be in the exact same position. No reason to work, infinite and instant food, no reason to find a lover when you can fug your waifu in a holodeck etc. and the human population should be completely decimated by now.
>No reason to work, infinite and instant food, no reason to find a lover when you can fug your waifu in a holodeck etc. and the human population should be completely decimated by now.
It's almost as if the people that created a tv show were more concerned about making it an entertaining and hopeful vision what humanities future could loook like instead of a bleak pessimistic UN report on the evolution of future demographics in relation technological advancement.
>>71479236
Come on now, they have naval ranks, are organized as a military, you can be court martialled for not doing your duty, every ship is armed, they have an internal security force that also double as marines, and they are what's used any time there's trouble or fighting needs to be done.
Don't confuse their "we are not an AGGRESSIVE military force and our ships have purposes other than fighting" with it not being a military. It's just a fairly nice military with good PR. They will fucking murder you if they feel its necessary, however.
>>71480811
>A coochie coochie coo! A coochie coochie coo!
nigga what are doing?
>>71481325
Playing with the cute little summer baby who couldn't come up with anything more creative than Trektard
>>71477510
I wonder if the Fuller series will incorporate some cack-handed 'commentary' on Brexit by having some Fed member voting to leave. Betazexit?
>>71481015
Holodecks are a new form of entertainment, they were only just being introduced at the start of TNG and definitely wouldn't be something everyone has access to. The only places we know they exist is:
>Starfleet vessels (for the crew's entertainment and sanity on long missions)
>Ferengi-run businesses (for Latinum)
>Starfleet research facilities (for running complex simulations)
So you're probably not going to be able to get holo-addiction without a job, either at Starfleet or on your own to pay for it.
Also, the points you made were addressed in the show (pic related).
>>71481520
REKT!
SURE IS SUMMER!
OMG SUMMER!
SUMMER TARDS BTFO!
ALSO SUMMER!
Star Trek politics isn't well thought out. Starfleet should technically be made up of tons of member races and their own unique ships, but it is primarily human with the same designs.
"Commander, tell me about your sexual organs."
>>71481324
Not him, but the issue of whether Starfleet is 'the military' is another one of those things where canon is all over the fucking place and you just have to accept that it's contradictory. Kirk literally says both that they are and that they are not in different episodes. His son with Carol Marcus says they are, Picard says they aren't, etc.
>>71481627
You seem a little defensive. Wanna talk about it?
>>71481679
Starfleet is a unified military, not a coalition of existing militaries. When your planet joins the UFP, your planet's military forces are absorbed into Starfleet.
>>71477510
are you intentionally forgetting the president of the federation? he lives on earth but isnt even human. stupid concept though
>>71481683
sore but soft cause i been using lotion
>>71481852
>he lives on earth
They're one of the two founding members, only makes sense.
>but isnt even human
The last few haven't been but we have seen several humans with the job
>stupid concept though
Why?
>>71479508
Starfleet can become militaristic (RED SQUAD! RED SQUAD!) in extreme times of war like when the Dominion had entered the Alpha Quadrant.
But they are still exploratory. Defense can be seen as military but it can also be seen in the same way a man hiking in the alps pulls out a dagger to hold off some native.
In most of the shows, the Starfleet captain rarely uses weapons first. Everything starts as defensive postures that inevitably lead into a military confrontation.
Is this not the general rule? There are undoubtedly some rare exceptions, pic related, but Starfleet made it a point to capture him even if it meant the life of his crew.>Also, Maxwell did nothing wrong.
>>71481943
>>stupid concept though
>Why?
its just a way to americanize the federation for the audience.
>>71479236
>Starfleet is not a military organization.
The Federation can keep spouting that propaganda all it wants.
"It's a humanitarian aid organization."
"It's a scientific research organization."
"It's a space exploration organization."
And yet those peaceful ships of scientific research and space exploration are well armed and sufficiently shielded enough to kick the asses of dedicated Klingon and Romulan warships.
The Federation only really struggled against the Dominion and the Borg, and even then they built a dedicated warship smaller, faster, more agile, and more well armed than anything seen before.
They can claim to "not be a military" all they want.
But make no mistake, Starfleet is the Federation Defense Force.
>>71481852
>he lives on earth but isnt even human.
Earthexit when?
>>71479508
>>71482181
I always felt the "we aren't a military" thing was just a stupid word game. Their primary purpose may be exploration, but they are still a heavily armed and trained hierarchical collective whose responsibilities include fighting wars declared against the government who they are accountable to.
There is an elected UFOP president which resides on Earth and he can regulate Starfleet. Do you even DS9?
>>71482181
>spoiler
Nice
>>71482494
you must be an underage ds9 fan
>>71482181
>>Also, Maxwell did nothing wrong
Daily reminder that Captain Maxwell inspired loyalty in every member of his crew by honestly caring about them and socialising with them as equals, he was a master in the art of interstellar battle and was completely holding his own against the flagship of the Federation, he fought for the Federation with everything he had, and Picard railroaded him to maintain peace with the traitorous, warmongering spoonheads.
Captain Benjamin "Maximum Spoonhead Casualties" Maxwell was a hero and did nothing wrong.
>>71482413
Even if you think in conspiratorial terms, Starfleet doesn't fight wars in the name of hegemony; not even Section 31 gave some hint of this.
If you wanted to say they were very persuasive to lesser civilizations through the use of careful, almost strategic diplomatic cooperation to the point that their greatness weapon was their umbrella shield of good will...
The same use of logic can be pointed back at you in saying that "they are silently military" is just semantics.
Giving them a singular descriptor or label at any time is ridiculous. Starfleet played many roles at many times. Having to use weapons for the sake of defense, whether military or not, still doesn't hold the negative connotation of the word military in the sense of "waging war" to gain territory.
Here is another example of man who had covert military intentions but was working under the command of (probably) a Section 31 agent to retrieve a cloak that would give any of the Federation's would-be enemies such a large advantage that they wouldn't need to commit to a war.
>>71482593
>Let us redefine progress to mean that just because we can do a thing, it does not necessarily mean we must do that thing
Based President Stoner Cat
>>71482703
>Let us redefine progress to mean that just because we can do a thing, it does not necessarily mean we must do that thing
Jesus what a fucking stupid line. Doesn't even make sense. Long time since I saw TUC.
>>71481683
Okay, here goes..
So basically I have a penis and a scrotum holding two ovular balls called testes.
Now these testes connect to what's known as the prostate gland through a duct called the vas deferens.
Stay with me, okay? Now here, in the prostate, a fluid is secreted and expelled with a fertilizer, so to speak, called sperm.
They combine to form a mixture excretion called semen.
When in a state of sexual arousal, the penis, that long but limp shaft you see here, hardens via a balloon effect that increases the flow of blood within it.
As the intercourse of my species reaches it's "critical state", the prostate expels the semen through a duct that leads to the urethral opening, or the end of my penis, and expels it out into our female's vagina.
I could show you how this actualized if you are interested.
>>71482701
The fact that section 31 even exists shows that Starfleet is not the happy Funtime it markets itself as.
Starfleet is more than just a military, but it is also a military organization. Whenever a military is needed, it is Starfleet ships and crew who are called upon, and they generally are packing a lot of firepower. As noted, they can go toe to toe with dedicated alien warships.
Saying they "only act in defense" is not showing they are not a military, since defense is the main purpose of many militaries.
>>71482823
>Doesn't even make sense
He's calling out all the Admirals in Starfleet that said that this was their best chance to wipe out the Klingons
>Long time since I saw TUC
You should re-watch it, it's the_____best star trek movie
>>71483015
No I mean that it suggests that 'because we can do a thing means we should' is currently part, or at least an understood implication, of the meaning of 'progress'. But that's dumb. They could, in theory, round up all their females and ship them off to Q'onos as love slaves for the Klingons. Nobody would suggest that the word 'progress' somehow implies they should.
It would be perfectly fine if he just fucking said "Just because we can" etc. Like, fine, I agree, don't genocide the Klingons. Why the meaning of the word 'progress' is even part of the sentence is what baffles me.
>>71483221
It's like just because we have progressed to have the new ability to do something doesn't mean we should.
Basically he was like Jeff Goldblum in Jurrasic Park.
>>71479236
>most problems we have on earth now are generated by scarcity.
Hahahahahahaha.
>>71483445
Those problems are caused by a scarcity of backbones and rope
>>71483445
Not him, but it's a fairly respectable position as long as you're using the economic definition of 'scarcity'. Like, I don't think he's talking about food shortages and suchlike.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarcity
>>71483549
Pretty much.
>>71483568
Yeah, you gotta doublethink before you newspeak.
>>71483651
Any time scarcity is used when talking about economics, it's assumed the term is using an economic definition, 'tard.
>>71483002
I know you want to argue for argument's sake, but we all know you've seen the entire series, all the shows, and you seem to be failing to point out your own cognitive biases.
This is explained thoroughly in the Sloan episodes.
Section 31 can be seen negatively as some poked hole in the Federation charter or as some insurance policy that, in the end, was the reason the Dominion war was ended.
Believe what you want, you're arguing points I've already refuted, such as military being situational and a semantic issue that you've gladly omitted.
Also, you seem so dedicated in broaching this terminology with anything that a military can do that you might as well say every single species in the Star Trek universe that has shields, not even phasers or particle weapons or any retaliatory devices, is militaristic.
You're treading on thin ground with the premise that Starfleet is a military organization.
Without Starfleet, Earth and UFOPs members would basically be some Klingon or Romulan colony.
>>71483651
You are a silly person. Your opinions are silly.
>>71478909
>>71479239
Lol Starfleet is literally the EU?
>DO YOU CONSENT TO BE GOVERNED? ONE TIME QUESTION ONLY, UNLESS YOU SAY NO.
>>71483764
Indeed, it ain't serious until it dehumanizes someone and makes them unable to live the most basic life worth living.
>>71483706
>Section 31 can be seen negatively as some poked hole in the Federation charter or as some insurance policy that, in the end, was the reason the Dominion war was ended.
S31 isn't necessarily a bad thing. But it is something that goes against the public image of a non-military organization Starfleet promotes.
>Believe what you want, you're arguing points I've already refuted, such as military being situational and a semantic issue that you've gladly omitted.
Wut? Starfleet serves many roles, and one of those roles is to act as UFP military. It clearly goes beyond basic self defense seeing that Starfleet has a lot of combat training, firepower, military based R&D, intelligence operations, and strategic planning.
>Also, you seem so dedicated in broaching this terminology with anything that a military can do that you might as well say every single species in the Star Trek universe that has shields, not even phasers or particle weapons or any retaliatory devices, is militaristic.
Starfleet is an organized force with strategic aims and a lot of firepower. You are seriously downplaying the kind of capabilities it has. Again- a Starfleet "research vessel" can go in a straight up slugmatch with many dedicated military ships from outside forces.
>You're treading on thin ground with the premise that Starfleet is a military organization.
It acts as the military of the UFP. Both in direct battle, as well as in strategic planning, military R&D, and intelligence work.
>>71484001
>It acts as the military of the UFP
It acts as many things of the UFOPs. It's roles can be diplomatic, scientific, exploratory, and, if necessary, militaristic.
No one is refuting that they can't be a militaristic force, but they are refuting that it is not solely militaristic which is my entire point that you just keep skimming through to fit your argument.
>Starfleet is an organized force with strategic aims and a lot of firepower. You are seriously downplaying the kind of capabilities it has. Again- a Starfleet "research vessel" can go in a straight up slugmatch with many dedicated military ships from outside forces.
No, it can't go up against most Klingon vessels or Romulan warbirds or Cardassian ships but it is a research vessel. That automatically makes it a target for hostile forces looking to steal technology. Would you not arm a research vessel to defend itself? If so, you no longer have a research vessel.
>Wut? Starfleet serves many roles, and one of those roles is to act as UFP military.
LOL, oh so now we're in agreement? Are you even reading your own posts at this point or just stream of conscious here? BTW thanks for agreeing with me.
>S31 isn't necessarily a bad thing. But it is something that goes against the public image of a non-military organization Starfleet promotes.
Right, I never argued against that. Don't put words into my post box.
>>71484214
>LOL, oh so now we're in agreement? Are you even reading your own posts at this point or just stream of conscious here? BTW thanks for agreeing with me.
If one of Starfleet's responsibilities is to act as the Federation's military, then it is a military organization.
Nobody has ever put forward that it isn't multifacitated, but to say that it isn't a military organization (>>71483706) is falling for their shiny veneer and PR.
>>71480229
>>71480394
>>71480407
>0 arguments by this poster
>>71479239
>Federation = EU
>Maquis = Britain
>Cardassians = Mudslimes
>Klingons = Russia
>Romulans = China
>Bajor = Sweden
>>71482896
Maybe just mouth stuff then...
>>71486764
If I double majored in military history and political science, I don't get a degree in PoliSci.
That's the logic you've comfortably used.
Come with better ammo next time.
>>71487016
>Eddington = Farage
>>71483445
if things weren't in limited supply, why would we need to exchange the ration tokens known as "money" to obtain them and why would we need to earn a supply of those ration tokens by working to generate them?
>>71487016
Cardassian civilization is far more respectable than Islamic civilization.
>>71487016
But then who is USA? The Dominion? The Q?
>>71477510
OP, it's a show made by libtards. Libtards have a tenuous grasp of politics as it is. Trying to invent space politics and make it believable is beyond them.
>>71488305
>seemingly all-powerful entity running roughshod around meddling in everyone's affairs
Definitely Q
>>71481582
Didn't Andor secede and then come crawling back a few years later?
>>71477510
i'm watching part 2 of Unification and seeing spock made me wonder
how long after tos is tng set? is kirk ded of old age?
>>71489140
>is kirk ded of old age?
He died of acute bridge trauma. TNG is ~85 years later IIRC but you can google it if you really care. Vulcans live mad long. McCoy has a cameo in the TNG pilot.
