So the transporter beam totally kills you, right?
What comes through on the other side is some kind of weird clone thing that's "born" with the memories of the person who was originally sent through, right?
I don't understand how it could be any other way.
Well it's a "transporter", so judging by name it does not. We don't know how it works exactly.
But yeah if teleportation meant simply copying yourself at another location, it would mean death for the original, but copy wouldn't know it, would it?
>"This is why I wouldn't travel that way," Dane said. "Ths is my point. For a piece of rock or clothes or something dead, who cares? But take something living and do that? Beam it up? What you done is ripped a man apart and then stuck his bits back together and made them walk around. He died. Get me? The man's dead. And the man at the other end only thinks he's the same man. He ain't. He only just got born. He's got the other's memories, yeah, but he's newborn. That Enterprise, they keep killing themselves and replacing themselves with clones of dead people. That is some macabre shit. That ship's full of Xerox copies of people who died."
>>71175470
Yes, essentially. It takes you apart molecule by molecule, beams that matter to the ship/planet/whatever, and reassembles you there.
It really isn't that big a deal. The beamed version is closer to the you that left than you would be after a nights sleep.
>>71175754
But the original consciousness ends, right?
You step onto the pad, they flip the switch, and then it's lights out. Sure, the copy remembers all that happening but the "original" just ceases to exist.
>>71175790
Why wouldn't your conscience travel with your molecules? Especially if it's perfectly reassembled again afterwards? It should snap back no?
>>71175790
Yeah, they die. But they die so an exact replica (with the same molecules even) can get somewhere quick and go on in their stead. Just man up and transport, it's what Miles O'Brian would do.
>>71175913
Your consciousness is just electrical activity in your brain.
If the physical brain is broken down, how does the consciousness persist?
>>71175542
Why don't they just copy and paste instead of cut and paste?
>>71176164
Because of the technobabble equivalent of not enough RAM.
>>71175470
Its an interesting thought, but you don't need to go to of sci-fi to find an occurrence of something similar. The body naturally replaces all of its cells every few months, so really you're not the same person 'physically' as you were not so long ago. Its an old philosophical paradox - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
>>71176230
Instantaneous replication isn't really the same thing as a slow replacement
>>71175470
No, it does not. That is the retarded normie niel degrasse tyson interpretation of it based on "muh quan-tum sci-ence".
It's been CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN that, within the universe of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the transporter does not actually "kill" anyone, rather their "soul" or consciousness or whatever you want to call it persists throughout the transport process.
>>71177884
thomas riker
>>71177915
Yes and? Oh, you don't have any further argument? That's the sum of your point? Gee, too bad you didn't watch the actual episode.
>>71177979
you are dumb
"YOU" don't exist.
What you consider life or self are human words to describe nonexistent things.
People blab on about stream or continuity of consciousness, but it doesn't mean anything. If one of you got copied, for one moment you are the same, but then are two completely different people in the next.
The person you were one second ago is not "you." You die every second.
>>71177601
What does it matter when inevitably everything is replaced?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61qvDjcEZsM
>>71175470
Hint, OP: your theory is a good one. However, per this guy >>71177884 , Star Trek is just a little bit too optimistic to seriously entertain the concept for more than an establishing episode or two. They "transport" around like they're using an elevator, without a second thought. It's implied that they've thought this through (and like this guy is suggesting, I bet they put this idea to bed in some episode somewhere, because Star Trek doesn't want to actually focus on the science of teleportation itself. It's just part of the signature toolkit of the show, one of the bits for which we are supposed to suspend disbelief and not be too critical).
If you want to seriously explore this idea (teleportation actually kills its subject in favor of a 1-1 reassembled clone), watch the Fly movies and read/watch what you can about their behind-the-scenes stuff. Cronenberg et al wanted to focus on teleportation itself, what it means to teleport, and they spent important time throughout their creative process thinking it through. And since it's Cronenberg (the subject matter is a bit darker, edgier, not so family friendly), they allow themselves to entertain the unpleasant-but-sexy conclusion: Seth Brundle was dead the moment he disappeared from telepod A, the first time.
>>71175913
>>71176058
you are conscious the whole time
>>71176129
>Your consciousness is just electrical activity in your brain
According to what? Your ass?
>>71178118
what else could it be
Very short answer is that Star Trek transporters don't just reassemble your bits somewhere else, your entire QUANTUM STATE is made to "occur" somewhere else.
At any given time there is only a "probability" of you being where you are now. At a subatomic level, you're a cloud of probabilities. The electrons of the atoms of your body are only "likely" to be within a certain range of space.
It could be said the continuity of this quantum state is what constitutes a "soul" in scientific terms.
That's why its not possible to store people as patterns and reassemble at will BTW. The information required to describe the entire quantum state of, say, a man, cannot conceivably be stored by any computer, only sent - a bit like how we were able to send radio signals before we mastered storage technology like vinyl records
>>71175470
No. You get separated on a quantum level so that you could be transported at ultra-high speed. The entanglement keeps you whole in other unperceived dimensions so that you don't die while being disassembled.
>>71177884
I remember and old officer/diplomat/admiral/whatever from TNG who refused to use a transporter and would only travel with those small ships.
>>71176164
Because then there would be two of you, and one would just think it didn't work
>>71175790
>But the original consciousness ends, right?
The mind is the brain.
>>71175470
What's the difference between having your atoms rearranged and standing still whilst moving through time?
Nothing, you're just as dead every second of your life. You only ever experience a "moment" before eternal death. There is no such thing as life.
Is there examples of the transporter duplicating persons and their "souls"?
If that's the case then yes it is just a fancy xerox machine and shredder.
>>71178024
Fucking thissss
>>71178693
Sounds edgy, but this. We have this idea of consciousness as though it's more than just a process of physical events in our brain but really it isn't. Asking this question as though there is a single absolute "you" is flawed.
how come transporters can recreate living things but replicators can't?
>>71178771
The amount of information necessary is too much, and the replicator only needs to copy a physical state whereas the transporter needs to copy states of electrical signals.
>>71175470
This only matters if you believe in a soul. The persistence of consciousness can be considered an illusion, and everyone has "died" already.
>>71178762
>>71176129
So you don't believe in free will?
>>71178840
Of course not. Free will as a concept is like a soul, what does it do? What does it mean? Nothing of course, it's just something to comfort people.
>>71178840
Nope. I don't honestly see how it's even possible that free will exists.
A better question is why they don't save people's pattern and just beam out a new one in case of illness, injury, or death.
Also, they once literally beamed the age out of several Enterprise personnel. They stepped off the pad as children, with no (other) ill effects, and who retained all their adult memories. Why the hell did no one ever notice that this was a key to immortality?!
>>71178881
>>71178898
Right, I'm sure you live you life in a way that reflects your lack of a belief in free will you hypocritical faggot
>>71178938
I'm hypocritical, sure, and I realize that. Humans are made to believe in free will implicitly and trying to live in a way that doesn't believe that is nearly impossible. I'm going to keep acting like I have free will so I don't go insane even if I realize rationally that it's a lie.
>>71178898
>>71178881
yes
i say things like this and people just look at me
>>71178936
Patterns are not reproducible. The pattern buffers can, at most, store some information about the person's basic "shape" and be used to repair damage in unusual circumstances, but they can't duplicate a person entirely, excluding one extremely fringe case that had more to do with a planet's unique properties than the transporter itself.
>>71178996
So you're choosing to pretend to believe in it then. Oh wait, you mean causal factors determined that you would pretend to believe in a lack of causal factors determining your actions. Or are you choosing to believe that causal factors determine that you would pretend to believe in a lack of causal factors determining your actions? Yea, real fucking rational.
>>71178938
>>71179004
The fact is pain is real, and existential horror very unpleasant, so ignoring all this to pretend like we're not soulless machines and enjoy our lives makes sense, just don't ask a question you don't want to know the answer to
I always took it as, the mind is a complex thing with "levels" of understanding. You are free in a sense, in that you can imagine yourself as anything or doing anything, but when it comes to actually acting, you are limited to one kind of action. You act as you must in every moment, but the mind has a way of framing action as choice, when there is in reality, in the depth of your being, no choice to be made. So I can say "I am off work, I can goto the beach, I can go climb a mountain, I can go to the bar and fuck a dime, I can fly like superman, I can jack off and cum a gallon, I can shit out a diamond" but in the end you just end up doing what you always do, going home, watching tv eating and going to bed and getting up the next day to work. So free will as a concept is nothing more than an ideal that makes you think you are in control, imposed by one level of the mind. But you are more than that, you can analyze your own thought and turn inward and gain some measure of understanding about such concepts, but we cannot escape them. In the end we are chained, though we dont see the chains.
transporter talk is some boring ass shit
>it's a Troi mindrape episode
>>71175470
Think about it this way, the transporter works in a way such that the moment you are scanned, decomposed, and reconstituted is such an infinitely short amount of time (in theory) that when "you" arrive at the other end of the transporter there is essentially no difference.
The reason this isn't really a clone is made more apparent if you think about what happens as you live normally on a day to day basis. Right now you are a different person than who you were a moment ago. This is because we are always changing on a molecular, atomic, subatomic, and quantum scale. The reason you don't notice this change is because it happens at such a rate that it is fundamentally as if you never changed at all.
If you keep in mind the fact that you are changing all the time, moment to moment, and when you consider whether or not the transporter kills you to make a clone, you realize that these are the same questions about what constitutes "you."
Basically, the perception of yourself is basically just part of your brain function used to combine all of your perception into a linear experience. Who "you" are is constantly changing and the brain patches different moments of "self" together to give the illusion of a permanent sense of "I."
Read this guys. Very interesting
>http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/12/what-makes-you-you.html
>>71178362
>>71179210
>>it's a Troi mindrape episode
she was kind of asking for it
I mean she was feeling my fucking pain without asking permission - I thought she just liked it a little rough
>>71179188
maybe im stupid
is this similar to what you think?
>>71175470
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdxucpPq6Lc
>>71179055
I'm choosing to go with the irrational biological instinct to believe in free will that allows us to survive so well.
>>71175753
Ship of Thesius etc.
>>71178800
They have stored people in the pattern buffers many times.
>>71179651
nigga you wise
wish we knew eachother irl so i could learn more
>>71175470
Yes. This is how Tuvix was born.
>>71178362
What about the episode where Scotty was stored in a transporter buffer for 80 years? That episode also had the most underwhelming use of a Dyson sphere possible, which sucks since that is Ubertech beyond the capacity of the federation.
>>71175470
It happens so fast that you don't have enough time to die.
>>71175470
I won't pretend to understand physics or this kind of science because I don't at all, but I really don't get this 'clone' concept. Since it's called a 'transporter', it's literally just moving matter from one part of space to another by disassembling, right? Where does cloning come in? Isn't it all the original blocks of matter just coming back together again?
>>71180916
(1) you died in the process of being taken apart
(2) the individual pieces are not important: all atoms are perfectly identical, so they could make you out of different atoms at the other end, it would make zero difference
you're died and there's a new you made out of new material. you've been cloned.
Do you die when you go to sleep every night?
>>71177884
You sound like some white buddhist retard going on about reincarnation
Go suck a cock and get it out if your system
A better question is why bother with teleporters at all for most cases, when you have free conversion of energy to matter built into every ship?
No need to teleport supplies down to the surface. Simply send a shuttle (or even a replicator itself) down to the surface and make everything.
Hell, unless its a wasteland it should already have the technology. Can just whip up whatever the fuck you want. Power it with sand. Its all physical matter anyway, makes no difference.
>>71181194
you die in the same sense that you die in the teleporter. which is maybe. but "death" may not be a meaningful descriptor to apply to "consciousness', which is how we describe "you".
>>71175753
This is 100% true. It isn't as if the person being disassembled has their consciousness placed in a magic little box during the process, only to be downloaded and reimprinted on the new brain of the reassembled copy, when? the second after the body is completely formed? Not even. And even fi that were the case, the copied consciousness inside the magical flash drive or whatever IS STILL JUST A COPY.
Thusly, teleportation is a mass murdering/replication machine and nothing more.
>>71175542
The show descibes in details how it breaks you apart up to the protons and then reassembles that soup of protons.
>>71180077
Reminder that Janeway murdered Tuvix
>>71175790
Its very philosophical. Every 7 year all the organic matter in your body has been replaced, including your brain. Are you still the same person? Or did you die somewhere down those 7 years?
Two Kirks. Two Rikers. These never could have happened unless the device is simply making duplicates.
https://youtu.be/pdxucpPq6Lc
>>71178118
>>71178135
There is a lot of evidence that consciousness is a quantum phenomenon, implying it is partly independent from your body. Im not talking about souls or anything, but the research in this field is intrigueing, since only the application of quantum mechanics would explain consciousness instead of us just being mindless automatons.
>>71182060
>evidence that consciousness is a quantum phenomenon
what evidence
>>71182201
Godbabble evidence.
>>71182201
Your mother
>>71182266
No, serious research from some Stanford guys
>>71182320
sounds like bullshit
>>71181990
At this one should actually forget everything concerning ST teleporting. Too much weird shit going on desu.
And where the hell isTom Riker? Still a lost boy in some forgotten Cardassian prison cell?
What would I do without the transporter to provide me with a nonstop source of abominable casus belli to complain about? I'll state simply that I can't count the number of times I've wanted to provide a trenchant analysis of the transporter's inconsistencies. I hope you realize that the transporter is just a rotten pipe dream from an avaricious pipe. In reality, we'd indeed have a lot less allotheism if the transporter would just stop taking us all back to the Stone Age.
As they look over the world's painful panorama of war and terror, some people conclude that it is too late, that no amount of information or activity could possibly renew those institutions of civil society—like families, schools, churches, and civic groups—that oppose our human vices wherever they may be found—arrogance, hatred, jealousy, unfaithfulness, avarice, and so on. But let's get down to business: The transporter wants to control every aspect of our lives. It wants us to rise, fall asleep, work, and live at the beat of a drum. Then, once we're molded into a uniform mass, we'll be incapable of seeing that among the many challenges in encouraging open, civic engagement is a bottom-line unawareness of how some express the view that I shall do my utmost to shatter the adage that “metanarratives” are the root of tyranny, lawlessness, overpopulation, racial hatred, world hunger, disease, and rank stupidity. Others express the view that there is little doubt that I could make a long argument for the idea that the transporter is operating under the misguided assumption that it can absorb mana by devouring its foes' brains.
If this post provokes a response from someone of opposing viewpoints, I would hope that the author(s) concentrate on offering objections to my ideas while refraining from attacks on my person or my intelligence. You know I'm right. Now what are you going to do about it?
>>71182356
Having detectors stare at photons in a slit experiment, changes the results of the experiment even though the detectors dont interact with the photons. It implies staring at something has an quantum mechanics interaction on it influencing it in mild ways without actually physically interacting.
A college of einstein did once ask
>If we all stopped staring at the moon for a second, would the moon stop existing for that one second?
That is how the results of these photon slit experiments can be applied to the concept of consciousness. There is far more stuff out there showing consciousness influencing probability in the face of lacking physical interactions with only quantum mechanical links being explanations.
The guys researching this arent psuedospiritualists, theyre hardcore scientists and take the data as it is. There is a lot of compelling evidence linking brain functions on a cellular level with quantum mechanical processes. in fact it seems to be a common scientific theme with a lot of basic biological processes like photosynthesis even using quantum mehcanical manipulation.
Consciousness seems to be links with quantum mechanical interaction on a neurological cellular level, implying there is an interaction, though its unclear how.
The data is solid, but the research being really down to earth dont brag about it to much because they get people consider results like this ludicrous or worse, hippies start promoting silly ideas without really understanding the science. Currently research into quantum interactions of consciousness is a small but stable field.
>>71181467
So what really stops them from reassembling a more perfect body instead?
They already use it to cleanse the body of infection and bacteria. Why not rebuild faulty organs or make themselves younger. Build some damn eyes on Geordi for a change.
>>71182554
No it doesn't change anything, this is a misinterpretation/oversimplification. What it does is collapse a quantum state into something comprehensible by the observer. They aren't affecting change in what the photons are doing, just effectively simplifying it into something understandable by an external observer (one who is potentially not even conscious). For Schrodinger's cat, you could swap the human and the cat and the effect would be the same. Hell you could have a recorder that no one ever viewed recording it and that would produce the effect. It's about a closed system on a quantum level and the effect an external system surrounding it produces when it is influenced by events in the closed system, not the intelligence level of the external system. You can't dumb down quantum mechanics to try and use it to explain more complex things. I'd like to see some peer reviewed studies on this.
>>71176164
Because teleporting is magical shit, not science. Nothing can teleport. It's a product from human mind
>>71182554
>Consciousness seems to be links with quantum mechanical interaction on a neurological cellular level, implying there is an interaction, though its unclear how.
Even throug without society and communications there is no consciousness.
Consciousness is learned and maintained by other humans.
>>71176164
Because that's how you end up with a bunch of Hugh Jackman's drowning himself over and over.
There are studies which show that we are able to predict what a subject will choose out of two options before he is aware that he has made a selection
>>71175470
No dude, the point of it is that it transports people from one location to another. They remain the original people, largely also because it's a fictional scifi show.
In real life, eventually we'll develop this technology, but most likely it will end someone's original conscious and then recreate a duplicate on the transported side.
>>71178840
>>71178762
>>71178898
>>71178938
>>71178996
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g
Imagine if that's the case. The transporter kills you and creates a clone who has all your memories. And no one will ever know that the original person died. You step into the transport them you black out and die. Another guy appears on the other end and everything thinks it's you. The only guy who knows the truth invented transporters and is some sadistic fuck and he's the final boss of star trek
>you will never jaunt while conscious and spend an eternity in your own mind
>>71184158
>. And no one will ever know that the original person died.
Except everyone would know as it would be quite clear by how the teleporter functions.
>>71175470
>>71175790
It doesn't matter. The result is the same. A universe which is identical in every single way except for teleporters in the first universe destroying someone and recreating them instantly in another location with perfect accuracy, and in the second universe physically moving that person to that location with perfect accuracy, they are identical. An infinite amount of times in any given period of time we are being destroyed and recreated in a slightly different place anyway, basically. Here's the thing. I'm a nihilist. Let's say this technology got invented, but no-one would use it because of this fear that you aren't 'you', the original 'consciousness', like you have a soul or some shit. I would use it, because I don't care. If I am destroyed, and an identical copy made somewhere else, that is me. If I am not destroyed, but an identical copy of myself is made somewhere else, we are both, in that instant, the exact same person, then we rapidly become different people as we are receiving different external inputs. But if you destroy the first person, you are deleting the possibility of the first different person being created, only allowing the second one to exist. Therefore, you are simply choosing to have yourself be affected by the input of being in a different location. In other words, that's you. But of course, the human mind finds it difficult to comprehend this, because all the universe is is what you experience.
>>71184387
Death is legitamately terrifying. I know that one day I will be gone for eternity. It's fucking sends chills down my spine.
I honestly think it's pretty unfair to be given life to appreciate, and then have it taken away from you at some point of old age. It feels like someone giving you a delicious meal or a cool toy to play with, and then ripping it from your hands and mocking you. I'd love to live a thousand years in a youthful body.
It's all a big prank.
>>71184473
This man, if someone offered me the chance to live forever I wouldn't be able to say yes quicker
>>71175470
>What comes through on the other side is some kind of weird clone thing that's "born" with the memories of the person who was originally sent through, right?
Nope. All matter is energy.
Star Trek transporters break the matter that makes you up into the constituent energy, then shoots that to whereever and reassembles that energy.
There are many kinds of transporters where it is a clone/copy on the other end, but without dealing with questions of soul, what comes out on the other end is you in Star Trek.
>>71184473
>unfair
Lel. Tell that to all the... oh wait they don't exist, never have and never will.
You know what else they glazed over? The fact that they developed eternal life using a transporter.
Their was an episode where an insanely old chick got a sickness that made her even older, and they used hair from her hairbrush to bring her back to the age she was when she combed her hair.
Figure they could have used that a few more times.
>>71184473
yeah man it's so unfair that you can post about your teenage existential crisis on the internet while literally billions of people on this planet live in poverty or war
>>71184387
>Therefore, you are simply choosing to have yourself be affected by the input of being in a different location.
What the fuck, that's not how brains work
>>71184664
This logic of the episode was, that this only worked because the illness attacked the DNA, but yeah, that was exactly the same bullshit as the Voyager lizard episode.
>>71184473
To live and suffer eternally is even more terrifying
>>71184690
And what are you doing about poverty?
Go suck a cock you self righteous fuck.
Post Star Trek inspired music
This came on the EBM station I listen to at work today and made me do a spit-take:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OL1kk-vEOo
>>71184764
This universe is not forever. Even if you somehow cheat the way your brain disintegrates over time and get your body into a state which it doesn't fail, at some point everything is going to collapse, rip or die a heat death. Eternity does not exist.
>>71184824
nothing
i'm also not crying about how death is so scary like a little bitch
>>71184922
Who said we wanted to live forever? It would eventually get boring. The point is to live however long we'd like and choose when we get to die, instead of being limited to a 80-100 year lifespan.
>>71184711
Didn't watch much Voyager. Wasn't that great of a show.
Though I do recall an episode where they played AN ENTIRE FUCKING BASEBALL GAME in the holodeck.
ITT: /tv/ makes /lit/ look intelligent
>>71184939
cool bro =D
>>71184968
That's DS9.
>>71184710
It is though. If you had two identical universes, where the only difference is that you were magically destroyed and instantly recreated identically in the exact same spot, it would be the exact same universe, you would go on to be the exact same person in both, die in the exact same way with the exact same memories. Same thing happens in universe 2, but you get teleported 50 metres away? Different things happen. Even if you ignored it, walked back to the spot you were, and carried on with your life, things would change. Perhaps you see something and take note of it subconsciously on that walk, later on you recall it momentarily, you pause for half a second as your brain has made a slight connection there. It doesn't affect you immediately, but later on, that delay of half a second causes you to turn the TV on half a second later. You miss a second of a commercial which is a picture of a burger. You don't decide to get a burger later on because of this. You're indecisive about what to eat for dinner later on, but from not seeing that image, you don't have burger in your recent memory, so you don't get in your car and drive to Burger King. Someone doesn't crash into your car, you don't get paralyzed from the waist down and become a bitter, angry cripple. You fulfill your dreams of becoming an Olympic athlete, becoming a completely different person because your location became different in an instant.
>>71184919
>EBM
There must be something about the genre
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS85CiglPso
Also, why didn't they ever again use Scotty's idea of holding people for years in the transporter?
It defeats the need for those prison cells they have on their ship.
Why don't more the the characters have quasi-immortality if transporters work that way?
>Backup your mind that morning
>Die
>Rebuild body and stick your mind back in
Basically what founders did with the Vorta
>>71176164
happened at least once with Riker, due to some malfunction.
They probably consider it ethically wrong.
>>71182554
they do interact with the photons, that's why the results change
t. physics student
>>71185032
All of this arguing is pointless, if the criticism of teleporters is the breakdown of what makes up your body, since this happens every day. The idea that there's a specific physical form and this body is you is erroneous to begin with. Bodies are in a perpetual state of decay. Even what makes up your mind gets rewritten in a state of complete absence of any events in your life.
>>71185192
Yea it was something like they shot the transporter beam through a blah blah blah storm and blah blah science shits out 2 Rikers.
The rest of the episode is wasted on touchy feely Rikers arguing over who's banging Troi and other family issues instead of the real story which is HOLY FUCKING MONKEYBALL SHIT WAS CAN DUPLICATE PEOPLE NOW
>>71185225
Everything is pointless, but I still haven't killed myself.
"Commander, tell me about your sexual organs."
![boardwalk-hall-organ-17%25255B6%25255D[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/WnVMB6Y.jpg "boardwalk-hall-organ-17%25255B6%25255D[1].jpg")
>>71185412
Mine presses all the right buttons if you know what I mean.
>>71175470
>memories can be transported hundreds of miles through deep space and atmospheres
>>71185688
That's what happens when a person travels aboard a starship though.
Retard.
>>71185627
I don't, but you hum it and I'll play it
>>71178113
That was a retcon started in the Barclay episode, all established science behind how it works would prevent that from happening.
>>71185407
>HOLY FUCKING MONKEYBALL SHIT WAS CAN DUPLICATE PEOPLE NOW
There's like a billion things in Trek that if you stop and think about it are dumb as shit and I think thats a valuable part of the charm.
Its just our current understanding that's changed what we use technology for.
They could just keep teleporting Picard in and have 20 Picards to handle all sorts of different hard shit that Picard has to handle.
>>71185930
There's loads of other examples of people being conscious during transport
>The near-light transport in The Schizoid Man where Troi says she felt like she was in the wall for a moment
>The prosecutor thinks Riker fired a phaser during transport in A Matter of Perspective and nobody says it's impossible
>Picard says "Perhaps... but not today" while being transported away in Redemption II
I'm sure there's more.
>>71186236
>Duplicating Picard
I was actually thinking the same thing.
The issue I have is how they continually restate their mission is one of exploration and science, and yet more than half the new discoveries they make are on board their own damn ship, yet no one ever tries to learn from it or do it again.
>>71182384
>And where the hell isTom Riker? Still a lost boy in some forgotten Cardassian prison cell?
Tom Riker is dead.
Voyager pretty much confirms it for the most part, as well as parts of DS9.
That is unless he somehow decided to leave the Maquis and turn himself in to a Federation judicial magistrate, he would be included in the list of people that died per the transmission Chakotay received somewhere in Season 4-5 of Voyager.
RIP Thomas RIker
>>71180393
I expelled air quickly in a reflexion of humour.
you "die" every time you go to sleep
your new self after waking up is just your brain chemistry activating your memories based of your previous day/s self
>>71182014
Brain cells don't get replaced stupid
>>71184968
>Though I do recall an episode where they played AN ENTIRE FUCKING BASEBALL GAME in the holodeck.
That was Deep Space Nine and it was really one of the dumbest episodes in Trek, even for a comedic one.
The humour was base and slapstick throughout. I had hoped for more of an interaction between Vulcans and the rest of the Alpha Quadrant / Federation and make a comment on their species' ethos while cracking jokes.
Unfortunately it was just one long, unending "DOH!" and Sisko hounding his senior staff until he comes to the conclusion that "It doesn't matter.. none 'a this matters."
Lamentably bad episode.
>>71185746
No, it doesn't. Unless you pretend that going FTL is the same thing as having your molecules disassembled.
>>71182912
teleportation already exists bro...
>>71175470
The Transporter breaks you down into energy, moves the energy another location, and rearrange the energy back into the same pattern it was in at initial transportation.
There were many instances when the transported energy was rearranged in a different pattern. There is some plausiblity to the idea that you are killed and a clone is made of your energy.
>>71186236
>20 Picards
Even in such a chaotic idealisation of the future, a law should expressly forbid men like that ever being recreated.
>>71186758
>you "die" every time you go to sleep
>your new self after waking up is just your brain chemistry activating your memories based of your previous day/s self
No, muh boy, I know your intellectual capacity is in it's nascent stages. You are forgetting REM sleep which is an integral part of forming memories from the previous day, amongst other things.
>>71187236
So how do you explain Riker's transporter clone? Where did the extra energy come from?
>>71187269
They could have used that technology to put a Data on every ship.
>>71186886
If they didn't, we wouldn't be able to stay alive.
Exercising regularly stimulates neurogenesis.
Stem cells targeted with neuronal potentials will create new brain cells and are being used to rebuild eye tissue (essentially neurons since your eyes are part of the central nervous system).
>>71187384
I think they said something like the energy came from the blah blah blah storm they tried to transport through.
How can they transport someone to a location that does not have the required atom components of that person?
Are they shooting matter at light speed and then rearranging them with 100% precision in the destination from space?
How can they disarrange atoms from someone on a planet while scanning every single atom location?
Sounds like the military application of this technology in weapons would be far more logical than a suicide machine transportation device.
>>71187208
no it doesn't. Interstellar was bullshit
>>71187418
I'm actually surprised they didn't do this. Having multiple androids on board a starship seems like a no-brainer.
>>71187513
Just turn everyone into androids that they control from a pod at Starfleet.
People risking their lives for no god damned reason.
>>71187418
>>71187584
>>71187513
Fuck..Off, Commander Maddox!
We've disproved your Frankensteinian theories now please leave!
>people use teleporters in stead of walking
>people get ever fatter
>teleporters slow down due to the increased number of molecules
>teleporter technology BTFO
>>71187483
Something-something quantum entanglement.
That's the best I can do for you because you've asked a valid question I don't think has been addressed is the actual transportation process.
We are moving atoms but through what method? Assuming I know of no other quantum level methods other than the entanglement idea, there can be no other.
>>71187723
The whole point of quantum entanglement is that there is instant transference of information without actually sending energy through space.
It has nothing to do with teleportation.
>>71181985
Like putting too much air into a balloon
>>71187866
Right, but that's almost similar to how the transporter is described even though there is a finite amount of time between the transport itself.
There is constant talk of "targeting scanners" and "moving the coordinates" but it's hardly discussed in detail how they are producing the end product at those specified coordinates.
Therefore, entanglement is the best I could do. In fact, I know of no other way even on a purely theoretical sense.
>>71175470
they're in the matrix
>>71184575
>everyone ignores what's going on
It's explained many times.
>>71186555
Yeah thisspoils:
I think that the Chakotay message refers to the final adventures of Eddington and his followers. Tom Riker, OTOH, was imprisoned by Cardies, but I don't know what happened to him after the war.
>>71175753
But xerox copying a xerox causes degradation. We dont see that in the crew of the enterprise, do we?
Does Q have an opinion on transporters?
>>71188304
Because it's literally not copying. It's transmission, which is also the reason for the range limits that the new movies entirely shit on.
>>71188121
No. Comparing quantum entanglement to teleportation is like comparing a telephone to a space shuttle.
It doesn't even remotely compare or make sense in any way.
>>71188378
"Teleportation" could mean a number of things so why don't you slim down the defining parameters for me so I don't have to infer your specific definition of it, kthx.
>>71188409
>backpeddling
Okay.
>>71188121
The teleporters in Star Trek literally scan the thing being transported
convert the matter to energy
shoot this energy to another location
reconstruct the energy based on the scans
They don't hide the process or not talk about it, fuck, they talk about it quite a bit actually.
>>71188502
>backpeddling
Uh, what? I asked you what you meant by teleportation, I didn't know we were engaged in some furtive argument.
>>71188526
Yes, but mean and this anon >>71188378 were discussing the "how" they are transported. As in the specific scientific method of transportation.
Star Trek just says "we have matter-energy converters that send you some place".
Yes, but how is that accomplished?
Have I missed an episode or two where this is expounded upon?
People who "omg its not real you" believe in some type of soul that would die with the first time you go through.
People who "doesnt matter, you have the same memories so its you" have two brain cells to rub together.
>>71188619
It's been years since I hardcore watched so I can't give you any episodes where it's discussed, but I know for a fact it's talked about in good detail in the Technical Manual which you should be able to find a torrent of pretty easily.
>>71182423
Kek, where is this pasta from?
>>71188619
Oh, and it's just energy transmission. They aren't moving information without sending energy, it is energy. That's the reason shit like shields, certain nebulae, and planetary atmospheres keep it from working as well as it being governed by something similar to the inverse square law which limits range.
>>71188636
what is basically like the prestige, the machines makes a clone and the "original" dies. If you are the original, you are fucked
>>71188700
>I know for a fact it's talked about in good detail in the Technical Manual
Oh, nice, so we already do have transporter technology?
Can't wait to get Edison my way into some real shekels for a change.
>>71188773
Semantics.
Transmit, transport, I haven't seen anyone here flesh out the specifics of how we get a man and all of his seven to ten to the 27th atoms from Yarmouth to Yuma.
Please, do me the favor of not referencing physics laws and give me something build upon in how we would actually achieve this process beyond saying "teleportation".
Which is magic (i.e. you fill in the blanks).
Why does no one bring up Event Horizon when discussing the Star Trek transporter?
Dr. Weir discusses how they punch a hole in the fabric of space and move through it while Star Trek says that it sends your atoms to another place
Seems to me that the Event Horizon way is much more plausible than the Star Trek way
>>71188964
>Oh, nice, so we already do have transporter technology?
You must be autistic.
>semantics
>give me physical laws we can build this shit
yup, definitely autistic and pretty ignorant of science.
The transmission of energy is a different concept than transportation. The methodology is pretty damn well understood. There are three major problems with how transportation in Star Trek works in terms of actual science: entropy of information, entropy of energy, and the uncertainty principle. Ignoring those, the science of how it works is pretty damn simple. That said, the reconstruction portion is the part where there's serious handwavium. You can argue away the two entropies via redundant data encoding and adding additional energy (reframe as open system and not closed) to cover inherent inefficiencies. The uncertainty principle mightn't even come into play if you assume that that level of precision is not needed.
>>71189081
>says that it sends your atoms to another place
nope, no it doesn't
Why do you think they literally say "energize" and "de-energize"?
>>71175470
If they don't need a transporter pad at the destination site, then why do they need a pad at the transportation site?
What happens to the soul during transport? Is it duplicated or stored? Is there a heaven for transported souls? Is the soul passed through this transporter heaven into its shell on the other side?
If I have faith of the heart, can I really do anything? What if someone tries to bend or break me? Can I still reach any star?
>>71189391
>>Oh, nice, so we already do have transporter technology?
>You must be autistic.
Autistic people are sometimes incapable of picking the most simple forms of sarcasm. There was a joke made that you didn't understand apparently about there being a "technical manual" for something doesn't exist.
>>semantics
>>give me physical laws we can build this shit
>yup, definitely autistic and pretty ignorant of science.
Nothing autistic about the specified transport mechanics not being actually told to us.
>The transmission of energy is a different concept than transportation. The methodology is pretty damn well understood. There are three major problems with how transportation in Star Trek works in terms of actual science: entropy of information, entropy of energy, and the uncertainty principle. Ignoring those, the science of how it works is pretty damn simple. That said, the reconstruction portion is the part where there's serious handwavium. You can argue away the two entropies via redundant data encoding and adding additional energy (reframe as open system and not closed) to cover inherent inefficiencies. The uncertainty principle mightn't even come into play if you assume that that level of precision is not needed.
You are going waaaay too far for something that's lacking a simple foundation.
I'm in IT networking. Fiber packets are moved along a specific channel to their header destinations and the degradation is called latency after the signal reaches a certain length.
Using your entropy as a model, this still does not explain how we are pushing or moving their constituent parts into a new location then reconstructing them.
My entire original point of contention was ensconced entirely in that part of it. We can't even begin to discuss entropy or latency until we know how we this trick is being utilized.
>>71189665
It's pretty autistic that you think that's a joke
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek_technical_manuals
>this still does not explain how we are pushing or moving their constituent parts into a new location then reconstructing them.
YOU AREN'T MOVING PARTS. YOU ARE MOVING ENERGY.
If you're not understanding how energy is linked to matter, the link is given by one of the most famous equations in all of physics: e=mc^2.
The instructions for reconstruction are encoded in the energy.
And what the fuck? Latency is merely a time delay. There's no degradation implied by a signal's latency.
Your problems with this are not because you're cleverly poking holes in things, but because you don't have the slightest clue about things you need to know to even kind of pretend to have this conversation.
>>71189943
>>It's pretty autistic that you think that's a joke
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek_technical_manuals
I was joking that if the schematics are all there in the manuals, I can make good buck now. Also, you can't just call everything autistic and pretend to go on sounding like some CalTech professor in the next.
>>71189943
>>this still does not explain how we are pushing or moving their constituent parts into a new location then reconstructing them.
>YOU AREN'T MOVING PARTS. YOU ARE MOVING ENERGY.
Yes, I apologize, I know this but at times word it improperly. If you look above I discuss there reference to "matter-energy converters" in the pattern buffers, etc. So I apologize for not being more specific there.
>>71189943
>>The instructions for reconstruction are encoded in the energy.
This is irrelevant to my original point of contention which is the transport or transmission of the energy into the destination. Still, nothing in this thread has expanded upon it.
>>71189943
>Latency is merely a time delay. There's no degradation implied by a signal's latency.
Wrong in that the pure definition of latency doesn't infer the degradation that occurs over because of what happens due to.
In fact, network engineers use latency to help define where a demarc occurs because they know a signal will degrade without repeaters and distance doesn't always account for the backbone technology a company uses between two locations. You can imply a hell of lot more than just degradation from a signal's latency.
>>71189943
>Your problems with this are not because you're cleverly poking holes in things, but because you don't have the slightest clue about things you need to know to even kind of pretend to have this conversation.
Oh please, get off your phase-shifted pedestal and address my original point in terms of methodology.
Everything you've spoke about the transporter's energy signals degrading all happens due to time and distance of the location (as well...
>>71188378
You're actually on the right track, but it's even more incomparable. Contrary to popular belief, quantum entanglement doesn't mean you can transfer even information.
Think of it like this: a machine flips a coin, then cuts it in half so that you have two coin sized circles, one of which has heads, and the other has tails. Then you seal them in envelopes, fly a million light years apart, and have someone on each end open them. The only difference is that in quantum entanglement the coin keeps flipping between heads and tails in the envelope, and there's no way to know what it'll be until it's opened and they both stop. Basically you both know what the other coin is doing just by looking at your own, but you can't interfere and manually change anything. There is no way to transmit meaningful information through quantum entanglement.
>>71190244
(continued)
>Oh please, get off your phase-shifted pedestal and address my original point in terms of methodology.
>Everything you've spoke about the transporter's energy signals degrading all happens due to time and distance of the location (as well...
... atmospheric interference and all that jazz).
We still haven't even addressed WHAT sends, much be it HOW it sends.
Also, let's keep this in perspective. I'm talking about in the actual Star Trek universe here.
>>71185076
Probably considered inhumane or something. I mean they displayed on a number of occasions that they could keep you in stasis indefinitely so they could have done that as well.
>>71181990
tuvix was gross and deserved it, although neelix was also gross and deserved it
For you people arguing:
https://cudebi.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/franchise-star-trek-tng-technical-manual1.pdf
Page 102
>>71175470
If something is physically identical to you in every way, it's you. What matters is the information, not the specific protons.
>>71175470
Question for OP or anyone else who wants to answer:
How do you know that the you who wakes up in the morning is the same you who went to bed at night?
How do you know the old you didn't die, and then you woke up and took his place/
>>71190536
H-holy shit.
I had no idea something even this comprehensive was written for the Enterprise.
Reading that now for hopefully some answers.
Wat happend if u beam the info to 2 places? Can i finally bang myself??
>>71190574
But that doesn't preclude you dying. You could be scanned down to the atom, replicated, and then shot in the head, it would still amount to 'you' as a conscious entity dying
>>71178024
This. Consciousness is a lie.
>>71190734
The other anon had details wrong, but was right that they talk about it a lot in the technical manuals. They actually had people do a lot of this shit behind the scenes to make sure there was at least some kind of internal logic for the writers to follow so the show wouldn't become a trainwreck.
>>71190898
>-Matter stream transmission. The actual point of departure from the ship is one of seventeen emitter pad arrays that transmit the matter stream within an annular confinement
beam to the transport destination.
So basically the annular confinement beam is sending them down. What that "beam" is, no one knows but it's the closest I've ever got to the scientific consultants and writers saying exactly how they are sent.
I've heard that used before numerous times, mainly by Data IIRC.
>>71190536
>This book has been downloaded (0) times by "Brannon_Braga"
>>71178498
How does that explain riker being duplicated ?
>>71175470
>tfw they could have cloned Data multiple times to create an android army using the transporter
>>71191255
The transporter didn't do it.
The planet's energy field did it.
Watch the episode.
>>71191255
It states it very specifically in the episode.
His signal was reflected from a magnetic interference in the atmosphere that later became a plot device in the same episode.
So they sent the signal up to the Albatany but it was right at the moment when this barrier window was closing so it both got through and was reflected back to the surface.
>>71178024
>>71190801
>>71191255
There's no answer for this. They'll just say watch the episode and cite facts from the episode not realising it undermines everything asserted.
>>71191688
The problem honestly is that you watched the episode years ago and refuse to watch it again. Watch it.
And while you're at it, watch The Schizoid Man, where they have consciousness inside the beam. Watch Realm of Fear, where they have consciousness inside the beam. Watch Daedalus, where they have consciousness inside the beam.
Really, just watch more Star Trek, a fictional franchise which has fictional laws of physics that don't correspond to the real world's laws of physics, and stop spending so much of your time on this website complaining about how Star Trek doesn't match up with the real world's laws of physics.
>>71191688
Actually, there's no answer for any of this speculation until we figure what exactly is an annular confinement beam (beyond extrapolating the context of each word's definition into the conceived idea of what it actually is).
What is this "beam"? What does it do to "send" people or energy that is multivariate yet somehow reproducible if we break down the atomic. It's kind of the macguffin in the middle of the heystack for what the transporter, at it's core is.
It's not the pattern enhancers, the buffers, the redundant buffers, the matter energy converters (since that's what a replicator is), it's none of that.
It's the mechanical a -> b "pipeline" utilized by the "annular confinement beam" to move matter as energy then (magically) back to matter at destination.
I think it just moves your molecules through somekind of warpfield to a different place in space
>>71191983
>(since that's what a replicator is),
replicators are just low resolution transporters. They have a store of mass on board that they convert into the desired object (they beam up a as much mass is needed, convert it via stored patterns into the desired object)
>>71191873
you are dumb
would you become physically merged with anything you were wearing?
>>71192102
Wow, hey, that was rude and uncalled for. You should apologize.
>>71192113
Ask this man..
>>71191873
Explain Scotty being in the transporter buffer for decades. He didn't have consciousness there.
They never treated it consistently, and on the fundamental idea behind it (convert matter to energy, move that energy, convert it back to matter) there is no possibility of continued consciousness
>>71178057
>behind-the-scenes stuff
where should I read/watch it?
>>71192509
He had consciousness, but he had amnesia and lost his memories of it due to signal degradation in the pattern buffer.
That's also why he doesn't remember what happened to Kirk.
THIS
WHOLE
THREAD
>>71192729
He doesn't remember what happened to Kirk because that episode came out before Generations was released.
>>71193755
TNG began before The Undiscovered Country came out, but the Federation still had peace with the Klingons in TNG.
No excuses.
>>71187208
No it doesn't and it will never be possible due to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle
>>71194104
Heisenberg compensators tho.
>>71194177
I wonder if the had penis compensators
>>71194314
The holodeck.
>>71193876
Not the same thing.
The Galaxy class enterprise was destroyed in Generations. Which marks it 100% as having taken place before the after the Scotty episode.
It's just an indication of the movie writers being retarded.
>>71194554
>The Galaxy class enterprise was destroyed in Generations. Which marks it 100% as having taken place before the after the Scotty episode.
The Enterprise D segments took place after Relics.
The Enterprise B segments took place before Relics.
Scotty should have known about Kirk, but the transporter ate his memories.
Why hasn't anyone brought up this incident?
>>71195988
>five minutes later, everybody laughs at McCoy for being afraid of transporters
>>71175470
i always thought it just folded a cylinder of spacetime, swapping it with an equal pocket of spacetime at the destination.
that would have been simpler hand-waving than all this "digitizing matter" horse shit.
>>71175790
No, you're conscious during the whole process. The episode where reg gets bitten by the guy who turned into a worm proved it.
>>71180175
Like four people went into the transporter, with some scotty magic applied to keep cycling the buffer. And only Scotty's pattern survived the 80 years, probably because he stepped into it last.
Sad times.
>>71196455
(data's voice)
"We've heard of other instances of people being trapped in warp BUBbles and being successfully transported through sub-space.."
I always thought this would be more plausible but would require the transported to carry a dilithium chamber capable of creating matter anti-matter reactions which would obviously kill the person.
(that is in star trek pseudo science)
>>71178024
pretty much this.
teleporting is no different from being asleep, being in a coma, passing out, blacking out, etc.
>Its a Barclay has a panic attack episode
>>71175470
Every cell in your body dies and is replaced save for a few brain cells. Are we ever the same person?
>>71196636
>teleporting is no different from being asleep, being in a coma, passing out, blacking out, etc.
Travel = Unconsciousness
Hungarian metaphor tier.
>>71196664
No, but we are always the same universe.
>>71175470
Well, getting shot in it certainly does.
>>71196702
What? No way!
You know what, I don't even wantwant this philosophical discussion anymore. I just wanna get to the transporter.
>>71178024
While I agree, I'd say that consciousness is in the continuity of the "you", you may be a different person than one second ago but you're the only one that has the memory of what your one second ago yourself has experienced
Tldr: amnesiacs have no soul
>>71196820
Malcolm Reed did literally everything (EVERYTHING) wrong.
Does anyone have a fear of losing his memories? Wouldn't that be like dying because you are no longer the same person?
>>71175470
It doesn't beam you anywhere instead you're replicated bit by bit on the other end. That's the dilemma it's like half the people in this thread misheard the original argument or something.
>>71197087
That's called dementia / Alzheimer's disease and it freightens me worse than death itself because you can literally feel the essence of who you are slipping away.
My grandmother went through years ago and me and my father were the main caretakers of her since his brother lives in Nebraska.
Shit was brutal, I've never been more scared of something in my life.
>>71197135
>It doesn't beam you anywhere instead you're replicated bit by bit on the other end. That's the dilemma it's like half the people in this thread misheard the original argument or something.
>>>
> Anonymous 06/23/16(Thu)18:27:18 No.71197165 ▶
>>>71197087
>That's called dementia / Alzheimer's disease and it freightens me worse than death itself because you can literally feel the essence of who you are slipping away.
>My grandmother went through years ago and me and my father were the main caretakers of her since his brother lives in Nebraska.
>Shit was brutal, I've never been more scared of something in my life.
Literally 100% wrong.
>>71190536
>>71197197
whoops, sorry, didn't mean to grab all that text from this post>>71197165
>>71179386
This
>>71197197
Beaming a person piece by piece creates no ethical dilemma as the original pieces are there and violates the speed of light. Star Trek has replicators. The argument is if a person is recreated whether or not it's still them.
>>71182060
>a lot of evidence
Just one guy, stop browsing /sci/
Reminder that the transporter only 'exists' because Gene Roddenberry and Lucile Ball were too cheap to film a shuttle craft landing sequence.
>>71197300
Which isn't related to this thread because that isn't how these work (and partly the reason why they don't work like that).
>>71197357
>too cheap
Nope, because they didn't have the budget.
>>71197357
No, that's wrong, even Gene Coon mentioned in his interview with Science Fiction quarterly that they were inherited by the movie "Forbidden Planet" but to serve as transportation devices as opposed to deep-space bio-stasis units.
G00GLE 1T.
>>71175470
DUDE YO SKINNY PETE BITCH LMAO
>>71188362
Yeah. Classic jj. "What do you mean there are limits to this series god powers? NO! THE ENTERPRISE CAN BEAM ANYWHERE AND REY CAN INSTANTLY MIND MANIPULATE!"
>>71182060
If you were to somehow remove your brain without losing consciousness the 'you' wouldn't change locations since 'you' are only anchored to a single point due to an inherited point of origin.
Whether or not the insular consciousness model is true or not is actually pointless since that's all we can experience, or in the receiver model, our own isolated facet.
Slightly off topic but
does anyone have that "The Suffering of Miles O'Brien" episode guide? I found it once browsing /v/ of all places and either never saved it or lost it. I have been tearing my fucking hair out trying to find it online. Can anyone help me out?
>>71198584
How does Brexit affect the Irish Unification? Is today just another reason for Miles to suffer?
>>71198759
Miles will always suffer. He's cursed with eternal life, don'tcha know.thank you so much
>>71198584
not really what you're looking for, but:
http://chiefobrienatwork.com/
>>71198759
>Whispers
Yet another fucked up episode about a clone just trying to stay alive and everyone around him that he holds dear is conspiring against him.
That one got me right in the gut.
>>71175470
No, it is canon that it does not do that specifically in order to say, "it doesn't kill you". A "teleporter" does kill you, but a "transporter" does not.
>>71196820
fun fact: they wanted the tension between hayes and reed to result in them having a sweaty hate fuck session
but rick berman said no
>>71199832
>former spy
>wants the d
Damn, Reed could have been the Garak of Enterprise.
>>71175470
in the episode where barclay say teleporter monsters, it showed a first person perspective of going through the teleporter. his stream of consciousness was never interrupted. we must assume it is the same person.
>>71200393
Star Trek science != established science
