>there will never be a balanced faithful and critically acclaimed adaptation of Frank Herbet's Dune series in your lifetime.
is there like. a point to living, that isn't built upon suffering.
>>70327297
>dune finally gets a miniseries
>it's based off the prequel novels because "lol not enough action"
I'm imagining a future where Zack Snyder directs Dune and makes it an objectivist wank fest and it's going to make me throw up
>>70327297
More liberal, muslim propaganda?
How about fuuuuuck no.
>>70327989
my poor son. my dear, son.
>>70327989
>Islam gives you super powers
Allegories have limits.
>>70328009
Not him but I finished the first book and wasn't that impressed.
I mean, it's alright. But the hype made me expect something more remarkable.
It has giant worms mechanical aircraft, that flaps its wings to fly, hallucinatory drugs that fuel the universe, prophecy within conspiracy, conspiracy within prophecy, coups within prophecy within conspiracy, intrigue, and questions on the political ramifications of decadancy, giant worms, science fiction without technology, nuclear explosions, revenge, and a deconstruction of the traditional hero narrative with how it constantly fucks with your sense of moral code as the protagonist falls deeper into alien logics that aren't understandable by man creating him into a monster responsible for endless genocide he suffers everyday recalling in memories from future not yet occurred, and is considered the most seminal classic science fiction series of all time, unrecognized in size scale and scope above even Tolkein
but I don't want to see it it's liberal it has people in the sand who aren't even portrayed in a positive or negative light.
>>70328042
It's the combined series that makes it work. The first three novels, Dune Vanilla, Messiah, and Children, that make it work as one cohesive narrative. The other are just completely alien but if you've gone that far you might as well.
>>70327297
Anyone who truly appreciated these books will never EVER want movies or tv series about it. Fuck your millennial hivemind
>>70328312
People have wanted to see this movie adapted since the 70's, from Jordorowsky to Ridley Scott to Lynch who actually tried but couldn't make it. It'd be almost impossible to really adapt properly, but they said the same for Lord of the Rings.
The only thing medium I don't want to see it adapted in is tv series or miniseries, like that scifi channel tripe. The first novel was built as a deconstruction of what a hero is, and a heroes journey fits into film well. That's why it was attempted to be adapted more than say, Lord of the Rings. It isn't really new to want it adapted is what I'm saying.
The setting as been a hot bed for conceptual design since the 70's attempt, design that would influence film years onwards. It wouldn't be hard to nail a good vibe and atmosphere, the novels ooze with it. In many ways it's a novel made for an impressive adaptation that's just impossible to adapt.
It's bullshit enough Jordorowsky's with Orson Welles and Salvador fucking Dali never saw the light of day.
>>70328266
God Emperor of Dune is highly regarded
>>70328832
That'd be even harder to adapt. I think the first three, if it ever happens and it's ever good, are a good jumping off point to establish the concepts. But how the fuck they can pull off Leto II from even the end of Children of Dune I haven't a clue.
Aren't HBO doing this after Game of Plebs ends?
>>70329259
Source?
>>70328029
Well, it is literally "stranger in a strange land" + "lawrence of arabia," so I don't know what point you're getting at.
>>70329010
> how the fuck they can pull off Leto II from even the end of Children of Dune I haven't a clue.
Take the kid playing charles xavier and put some mud on him.
>>70330055
Except Dune is more highly regarded than stranger in a strange land. It's best not to say an author is ripping off someone, when the author of the book your claiming was stolen from loved Dune.
>>70329259
don't joke about this you fucking prick
source or kill yourself
Lynch's Dune was a good movie and was the closest we will ever get to a good adaptation. The TV series was irredeemable shit. Jardo Dune would have been a trainwreck. There will never be a faithful and critically acclaimed adaptation of Dune because the universe is too thick and the themes are too complex to be expressed in film in any way that wouldn't put 99% of the audience to sleep.
I did not say this. I am not here.
>>70328312
this
>>70328439
hur some older dumbasses wanted it adapted too
kys
>>70331047
kill yourself
books are for faggot
dune was made to be a film
>>70331126
No it wasn't my dude. You should really consider suicide.
>>70330116
Wait a second, didn't he already play leto II in sci fi children mini-series?
>>70331047
>>70331126
>>70331193
Are you people in grade school. All I was lamenting was Dune never being able to fully, fully be brought to the screen. It's possible but it's a herculean task for anyone nobody would ever fund. And that's just disappointing.
>>70331333
>All I was lamenting was Dune never being able to fully, fully be brought to the screen.
I never said otherwise, I said earlier in the thread that the universe would be nearly impossible to express faithfully in film. Watch your mouth next time lil nigga.
>>70331441
>Watch your mouth next time lil nigga.
no
>>70331474
Ima give this lil white nigga AIDS
Who will play him in the inevitable biopic?
>>70331509
The bloated corpse of Orson Welles.
>>70331509
thatsapenis.gif
>>70331581
that's the baron
>>70331717
It can play every character, for all I care.
>adaptation of Dune
hmm let's see
>young boy is an outsider
>most family dead
>has to go on adventure through harsh environment
>meet mystical super nomads
>turns out he's The One™ that the prophecy predicted
>also turns out he has superpowers
>fights with swords
>has absolutely no character flaws whatsoever
>in the end overthrows the evil king and takes his place
you're right OP I absolutely cannot even think of anything similar
>>70331224
yea that's what I'm talking about. It ends with leto's transformation, and the "transformation" is "uh, leto, you've got some mud on your shoulder/neck."
>>70331892
I don't get it
>>70331928
no, clearly not
>>70331892
You're missing the point of the book. It's a deconstruction of the traditional western hero and why you shouldn't trust politicians and real life counter parts who follow such path, as they are deluded as seen through the fall of Paul into self justified prescient madness.
>>70330242
... stranger in a strange land was published 20 years before dune, yo, and its pretty much a cornerstone of the entire science fiction genre, with dune making regular callbacks to it.
>>70331973
that's not even in the first book though
>>70331892
>oh wow a piece of pizza
hmm let's see
>sauce spread across dough
>cheese sprinkled over sauce
>covered in Toppings™
>baked in an oven
you're right OP all pieces of pizza are exactly the same with no difference whatsoever
>>70331984
That being the case, Dune is still a better written and meaningful piece of fiction than Stranger and it's regarded as such universally.
>>70331999
The first book is all about the not-jews trying to create a messiah to lead them all into absolute power, and having that blow up in their face.
>>70332044
that's just a framework for a very predictable and formulaic plot though
>>70331999
Yes it is. Herbert described it as such. The entire series is based upon the premise, as said by Herbert himself "I am showing you the superhero syndrome and your own participation in it." As well as, The bottom line of the Dune trilogy is: beware of heroes. Much better [to] rely on your own judgment, and your own mistakes."
That was when Dune was still a trilogy, even.
>>70332102
the first book ends with Paul on top, right after his triumph. He's a perfect warrior and hero
>>70332036
>i've never read stranger in a strange land
>let me tell you about why its shit though
... son, really.
>>70331892
Well, he did kinda commit genocide
>>70331973
No it isn't lol Herbert himself said that he conceived Dune at first to be a sci-fi universe in which he could discuss concepts of ecology and the organism/environment relationship and that he eventually got carried away. The point of the book is, first and foremost, to express concepts relating to the environment/organism relationship, according to the author.
Don't assume or else you make an ASS outta' U and ME! :^)
>>70332137
Hes a perfect tyrant tearing down galactic civilization.
>>70332159
not in that book
>>70332181
not in that book
>>70332159
yea but they started it
>>70332172
Books can do more than one thing at once.
>>70331508
I don't care!!
>>70332044
>>70332094
You're simplifying the narrative for ease of description, but it's much more complicated. It's about how no one man can handle the emotional stress and responsibility of the powers Paul acquires. The book is filled with quotes, and false meanings that speak out at your moral compass, and what you do with the information is entirely up to you. Whether you buy Paul as the hero he becomes despite his pleas that he isn't, or his hypocritical acceptance of it later.
Paul in many respects is worse than both Shaddam IV and the Guild and the Bene Gesserit. But he does it because he cannot see a future for humanity that he can't set in motion himself with his vast awareness.
But prophecy is always a double edged sword. As the Cretan Epimenides saying, "All Cretans are liars.
>>70332137
An the second starts with him comparing himself to Hitler.
The first was the construction of the hero as a way to fool the audience into trusting Paul, the second and third totally deconstruct him.
>>70332188
>paul doesn't take absolute control of dune, in dune.
... uh, why are you acting as if you've read the book when you clearly haven't?
>>70332241
of course he does. That's not what you said though
>>70332172
Uh, yes he tackled ecology, that was his point of inspiration. But Dune is far more than its point of inspiration. It's a gigantic ocean sized series of ideas, settings, Baroque to Nouveau to Eroticism.
It's a great beautiful series of ideas put into a blender that still feels functional. If not magnificent in its function.
>>70332222
Leto II does a pretty good job of handling his powers though
>>70332036
You're not quite right there. Dune is the most creative science fiction ever written, Stranger is the most immersively believable science fiction world ever built. The best science fiction book ever is pic related, but most of you scrubs probably have no idea what this even is, which saddens me because I'm not an edgy hipsterboo
>>70332188
the description of what is going to happen is all in the first book though. In the first chapter the Fremen are impressed by Leto caring about saving sand-workers more than the spice, and then by the last chapter Paul cares more about hurting the Harkonnen than his own warriors. When he's first in the desert Paul sees visions of the coming jihad that he's going to lead, and at the end when he's confronting Gaius Mohiam he admits the jihad is coming and cannot be stopped. There's also the long exchange between him and Stilgar where he realises that Stilgar doesn't see him as an equal and a man who can make mistakes anymore, but that even he has bought into the messiah myth and now blindly follows Paul's mistakes.
The second and third book flesh out Paul's fall, but the first book has plenty of references to how it began
>>70332203
You said "THE point" as though it was the encompassing and ultimate point of the series, when it is actually only one small aspect of it and far from what anybody would call "the point of the book." Maybe learn how to talk my man so you don't end up saying things that you don't mean.
>>70332225
>And the second starts
I guess it's a good thing I wasn't talking about the second one
>>70332281
>the entirety of galactic civilization relies on dune
>paul takes absolute control of dune
>this doesn't result in the collapse of galactic civilization
... ya funnin wit me boy?
>>70332137
He also throughout the novel calls himself everything from monster to bastard to devil. He hates the power he has no choice in aquiring. He becomes a hero only in the minds of the weak he's terrified of influencing but has no choice in.
His legions conquer the stars in rape, murder, and jihad.
Paul is the protagonist, and the antagonist.
>>70332317
Give us information
>>70332330
You talk like a shitposter. Maybe you should learn proper diction so you don't come off as a cunt.
>>70332317
That is certainly not the best science fiction book. Maybe Neuromancer or something by Lem, but certainly not Bester.
>>70332336
>let's talk about a book series adaptation
>oh yeah but only the first one :^)
Son, please...
>>70332298
he really doesn't, he just chooses a future that is brutal and tyrannical for the sake of saving mankind in the long run. Paul saw the same future and the possibility it held but rejected it because he didn't think the means were worth it and hoped there could be another solution. Leto also suffered from massive loneliness and lost track of time and a basic sense of being human by the start of God Emperor. He could get lost for weeks at a time in his ancestral memories or prescient views which is why he stopped relying on them by the end.
>>70332317
I'm gettin there, I'm kinda stuck on Heinlein right now.
>>70332330
Why are you being so combative. I'd love to talk about this book, but the primary point, at least to me, is the deconstruction of the science fiction hero and western fantasy hero at the same time.
There are many points, but this remains the primary one. Paul isn't deconstructed as a character, as he is being deconstructed, it's all described by his character; losing his mind as he goes along to a universe that is always one step ahead of his logic.
Regardless of his motives, all his visions end in the same climax, his eyeless corpse floating in a sea of blood and bodies he's responsible for killing by doing what he believes must be done.
>>70332396
A point from a shitposter is still a point. If you don't watch that blabbermouth I'll teach you a thing or two about diction.
>>70332418
The future Leto II chose for humanity was a future that prescience could not see, predict, or influence. A future controlled by no one person or group. That was his golden path. The thousands of years getting there were just was was necessary to reach the golden path.
>>70332142
I never said it was shit.
>>70332507
right, but that doesn't mean he could handle the power and responsibility better than Paul could.
Paul tried his best to struggle against it and use his own life as an example for why people should reject the oracle.
Leto embraced it and became a tyrant whose brutality would leave such a psychic scar on humanity that they would have no choice but to reject him.
But in the end both suffered greatly and were destroyed by their power, whether or not they succeeded in their goals
>>70332507
Spot on. Leto II was playing the long game. The real question is: did he know he was going to die and just went along with it? Or was he legitimately fooled by his foes?
>>70332396
It's called "The Stars My Destination" by Alfred Bester, and does the best job of channeling rage into the written word of any novel I've read
>>70332408
Neuromancer is one of the most imaginative, but Bester took tragic opera and flung it onto a canvas the size of the universe. There is no more potent scifi novel. The author's willingness to go where other authors did not, contemplate extremes of human experience we cannot imagine, makes Stars a horizon-expanding read, and Neuromancer doesn't quite do it as well.
>>70332433
Which Heinlein? Read Stranger, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and Starship Troopers if you want. Nothing else is as necessary, although if you find you really like him I recommend The Cat Who Walks Through Walls
>>70332499
Teach me, sempai.
>>70332643
I'll get on that.
>>70332628
Holy shit, I gotta read this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4SwFhfNh1w
Brian Eno should have at least done the entire score for the Lynch version. The Prophecy Theme alone translates the feelings of reading the novels into a sound giving the same emotion perfectly.
I have a major issue with books where "intelligent machines are forbidden"
like, ok, so that navigational computer that can traverse FTL pathways is pretty dumb right? Or I guess because it doesn't need a hug or doesn't have a face means it's all cool to use it
you can maybe use the "self-aware" excuse but as computers become orders of magnitude more complex that self awareness is probably inevitable anyway
>>70332628
>did he know he was going to die and just went along with it?
Yes? He described the aftermath of his death in what dune would become. He never let himself look past a certain point, and that point was falling into the river.
>>70332628
>did he know he was going to die and just went along with it?
of course he knew. He referred to Hwi as "the perfect god-trap" and knew exactly why the Ixians made her, but he still took the bait. Besides, by then he had the Siona gene, had the Ixians developing No-spheres and machines that could navigate between planets without spice, and had setup the conditions that would lead to the Famine Times and the Scattering so it didn't matter if he were still alive anymore. Duncan and Siona's rebellion in killing him was basically proof to him that humanity was strong enough to survive on its own now
>>70332643
Red stranger and moon, currently on time enough for love, gotta hit troopers next. I'm stuck on him in the sense I'm thoroughly enjoying his work and thus, obsessed to keep reading.
>>70332733
In Dune they really, really, distrust computers in any form with a religious fervor.
>>70332733
If i remember, it's not computers that traverse FTL but in fact people that use a shit ton of melange so they can see into the future and do FTL travel with no worries.
>>70332621
I think Leto succeeded. Human civilization did spread throughout the universe after his death after all.
>>70332733
They use thousand year old mutated human beings warped by spice prescience. The engines to use a Heighliner are all there, the systems are monitored and controlled by guildsmen. And the navigator itself helms the ship by being aware of all objects simultaneously as it folds space, shifting the massive craft away from planets, asteroids, objects. Fuffiling the role computers used to onboard the craft itself.
It's a hard concept to grasp and explain, but that's what makes Dune so fun to read. It's full of just, imagery and ideas that make you stop for a second and reread to make sure you read what you just read.
>>70332733
they don't have machines that can traverse FTL. that's the whole point of the Spacing Guild because their Navigators are the only ones with the mental capacity to do that.
In Dune the technology to move an object faster than the speed of light is apparently pretty widespread and not banned, the problem is moving faster than light means you can't rely on any normal means of navigation: the light you see from your destination doesn't correspond to what will be there when you finish your jump.
So you have to rely on either:
1: highly advanced computers to correct for gravity, stellar movement and the various other deterministic physical forces that could affect your trajectory (which are banned)
2: narcotic-fueled navigators that can basically see a simple straight-line computational path into the future to predict how an FTL jump will go.
>>70332929
>>70332892
>>70332863
ok I get it but at the same time how does it make sense to trust a horrifying mutated brain blob more than a computer? You can't connect to the blob like a person and it doesn't have emotions, I assume? It's basically just a meatball computer
>>70332733
Their rejection of computers was mainly so herbert didn't have to wrestle with obsolete (or ridiculous) concepts before the first chapter was written.
The in-universe reason was how creation of machines that could reason as a man, lead to machines that could reason better than men, which made man obsolete. Therefore destroy all machines and improve man.
>>70332987
>how does it make sense to trust a horrifying mutated brain blob more than a computer?
Because it works without issue. I'm assuming the navigator has no reason to rebel, as it feels entirely pleasant in its state, pleasurable even, grasping the dimension and size and scope of the cosmos is its job, and its addiction.
>>70332621
I mean, Leto II formed a plan, stuck to the plan, increased his capacity as a sentient entity when necessary to better articulate the plan, and accomplished the plan completely.
Paul lost control of the jihad almost the instant it started then spent the rest of his life... well, whining about it.
>there will never be a Culture series adaptation because the normies won't get how a utopian classless society has problems
>>70332987
The blobs are addicted to Spice, they don't have any reason to rebel.
>>70332733
There are plenty of books where the use of intelligent machines are overused, so a setting where the omission of "thinking machines" is not only deliberate, but woven into a plot point, is a breath of fresh air. Not only that, but the void left by thinking machines is what germinates so many of the unusual, innovative things about Dune. The use of melange to give humans consciousness-expanding insights that let them approximate AI computational ability, the seemingly ancient way people fight with knives and shields, and the deep-seated, nearly religious paranoia with which the inhabitants of the universe view the idea of AI, as well as the definitely religious history that was imbued by the Butlerian Jihad against machines: all that would not be found in a series with artificial intelligence, nor would it be equaled.
>>70332987
Navigators definitely have emotions.
>>70332987
The blobs are people, just mutated through generations of spice usage. And Expanding on the concept of improving man (>>70332998
), there are human computers known as "mentats" that are trained from a young age.
>>70333054
To add onto that, the slight prescient and psychic ability of the navigator itself, along with the wisdom of a thousand plus years, probably give it enough reason not to crash into shit, as that would destroy the reputation of The Spacing Guild and CHOAM with it, the only two organizations who keep the Lansraad so easy to travel through. The Guild, in many senses, is the real power in Known Space. If they were to betray that trust, civil war between the Great Houses would occur, and all would be for naught.
>>70332987
because it's not really a meatblob, it was once human. The book takes place 10 000 years after the Spacing Guild came into being, things changed gradually and they got more and more accepted.
At the end of Dune there's those two Guild representatives with the Emperor and they're basically just normal humans with massive Spice addictions, no more. The really crazy mutated Stage 3 Navigators or whatever were the extreme end of the spectrum. For most of history the people piloting the ships were normal humans, but because of training, a lifetime in space, and massive doses of space drugs, over the centuries they drifted away from what outsiders would consider human
>>70332843
>70332843
In that case I also recommend Podkayne of Mars, for some reason, as well as Orphan of the Stars, which is one of his earlier works and plenty enjoyable. Don't read Friday, The Number of the Beast, or any of his other navel-gazers unless you're really, REALLY into Heinlein or else like punishing yourself.
>you'll never ask a qt3.14 fremen girl to carry the water for you
>>70332987
Because thousands of years before the events of Dune a robot empire nearly destroyed humanity. Thinking machines have been banned since then.
>>70333205
jealous of Paul for at least getting Chani ass on the reg
>>70333205
>you will never swap fluids with a qt fremen grill
>>70332987
The danger of computers was too great because of what happened last time. It's not really explicitly said in the OT (I think) but I actually went and read the whole prequel trilogy by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Andersen, which isn't a hundredth as good, but does do some good legwork in telling the story of Omnius and the cymeks (human brains in robot bodies) and how the Butlerian Jihad occurred and the Atreides/Harkonnens became relevant.
This is the best thread on /tv/ I've been in, in so long.
Cheers m8s
>>70333199
well, I did read all six of herbert's dune books, so I do hate myself.
>>70333171
not really. Civil war between the Great Houses would be basically impossible without the help of the Guild. House X declares war on House Y but none of it matters if the Guild won't transport their troops for them so they can actually fight. That's why the Guild is the ultimate parasitic power in the universe, because it relies on a stagnant and safe political environment to get business and won't take sides in events that could shift the balance.
That's also why the Fremen were able to jihad their way across the galaxy in so little time, because with them controlling the Spice completely, the Guild was their little bitch and every one of their enemies was left alone and stranded while the Fremen were the only ones who could move troops with impunity
>>70332733
Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind.
>>70333305
>JIHAD, BUTLERIAN: (see also Great Revolt) -- the crusade against computers,
thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108
B.G. Its chief commandment remains in the O.C. Bible as "Thou shalt not make a
machine in the likeness of a human mind."
That's from the glossary of Dune
>>70333338
No I get that, I just forgot about that part. The intra-politics of the Lansraad are a bit complicated and I haven't read the book in a while.
>>70333337
>all six
you kinky boy
Who here has read Seven Pillars of Wisdom? Is it an inspiration for Dune?
>Dune is like GoT in Space
>>70333392
Right I mean it was established in the original books but you have to admit that's not really a lot of initial detail
>>70333305
the prequels are pretty blatantly not-canon. There's no mention of a robot empire or AI trying to exterminate humanity anywhere in the original Herbert books. The most detailed description for the reasons for the Jihad were basically "to stop the defilement of the human soul by creating machines in its image" and "to end the tyranny of men who used thinking machines to control other men."
In reality it fits in very well with the themes of rejecting a saviour for humanity, just that in this case the saviour wasn't a religious one but rather humanity putting its trust in machines to solve its problems for them. There's also not very much to actually point to the Jihad being actually justified or being the "good guys," it's just that it's ancient history and the victors wrote history so everyone just goes about assuming it's the obvious way that the galaxy should be.
>>70333457
Just pointing out that it was stated
>>70328042
This. What I didn't like about Dune was the sheer impossibility of it, namely the tough environment=super-soldiers. While tough environment can make for pretty rugged and strong people, it's absolutely shit when it comes to making armies.
>>70333492
Not true, see >>70333392
>>70333492
herbert didn't even write the prequels, so fuck it.
>>70333508
It's impossible but nearly all fiction in this size and scope is. It's just the ultimate series of mental masturbation and brilliant ideas, in an absurd setting that seems, baroque, science fiction painted through the eyes of the renaissance. And that appeals to a lot of people.
>>70333500
And I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm disagreeing
I was making the point that it's not really explicitly said to the degree that every reader of Dune would immediately pick up why AI is such a bad idea
>>70333508
>it's absolutely shit when it comes to making armies.
Mostly because it takes too long. But when you've got thousands of shitty environments to pull from and total control of the culture of those environments, pulling armies from those environments is a little more feasible.
>>70333508
Aren't Fremen innately spice-enhanced by living on Arrakis?
>>70333508
What makes really good soldiers?
>>70333543
All the glossary says is that there were thinking machines, and people destroyed them.
>>70333595
Ah, sorry. I misinterpreted.
>>70333270
I'm still pissed at how fucking ugly chani was in the mini-series. Supposed to be an elf-like girl, instead we got a cow with a manjaw
>>70333595
Well, half the science fiction of the time was about computers going crazy and killing everyone... so its one of those things implied by the culture of the time.
They also did make the point that thinking machines made humans obsolete, so fuck that, make better humans, etc.
>>70333633
Yes. They have blue within blue eyes, same as the Guildsmen. They can see the opponents next move before they make in a short period, making their swordsmen and assasins second to none.
They've been training and hiding and controlling, but being controlled, for thousands of years, when the Zensunnis still existed as much en masse as they did. Before the Orange Catholic Bible.
>>70333644
A crusade against conscious robots and thinking machines is distinct from a movement to purge the world of something "profane" being used by humans. At least to my mind
>>70333633
Yes, but the "bad environment = SUPER SOLDIERS" thing wasn't limited to the fremen. The sardaukar were also raised a similar way on a different planet without spice.
The fremen just kinda, ya know, rocked their socks.
I need to fucking read Dune
Sounds really interesting
>>70333508
that was part of it, but not the whole thing. A big part was that the Fremen society was geared towards survival, with every individual contributing to the tribe and having a role, with no weakness tolerated. Meanwhile, the Sardaukar had become complacent and involved in imperial politics which weakened them greatly. Also look at Messiah even and you see the Fremen being infinitely weaker, not because of a change in environment (Dune still wasn't terraformed) but because of a breakdown of their "work together or die" society and the emergence of powerhungry individuals (like the priesthood and new merchant class) and the survival of the old and infirm (like that blind soldier with the semuta-addicted son).
It's like the end of the Roman Empire, where sure, the Praetorians were better trained and better equipped, but they spent most of their time in Rome rather than on the battlefield and were too busy stabbing Emperors and installing one of their own on the throne to defeat barbarians whose entire life was riding horses and fighting.
There's also the fact that most of the technology the Sardaukar relied on just didn't work on Dune. Dust clogged up most machinery, thopters and larger aircraft were difficult to use in the deep desert because of sand storms, and shields attracted worms. The Sardaukar were hobbled by not being able to use the best tools they had and their over-reliance on machines and shields led them to lose on Dune. After that, the Fremen easily won the Jihad because individual houses were left isolated and with just poorly-trained levies against fanatical soldiers with the full support of the Emperor and the Guild
In a "fair" battle between the Sardaukar and the Fremen with both sides able to bring their best in an environment that didn't favour either, the Sardaukar would have easily won
>>70333751
http://izt.ciens.ucv.ve/ecologia/Archivos/Filosofia-II/Dune%201%20-%20Dune%20-%20Frank%20Herbert.pdf
>>70333688
she was pretty waifu tier in the lynch movie. And the Alia casting/performance was so perfect I almost forgive every other flaw in that movie.
>go through four books thinking it's supposed to be pronounced 'CHAH-nee'
>listen to frank herbert pronounce it as 'CHAY-nee'
>can't help but think of paul fucking dick cheney
>>70333787
>In a "fair" battle between the Sardaukar and the Fremen with both sides able to bring their best in an environment that didn't favour either, the Sardaukar would have easily won
... that would mean the fremen get no spice. So... yea, that's kinda obvious.
>>70333751
There are so many great quotes from it too, that just, apply to real life as they do untold thousands of years in the future.
“There is in all things a pattern that is part of our universe. It has symmetry, elegance, and grace - these qualities you find always in that the true artist captures. You can find it in the turning of the seasons, the way sand trails along a ridge, in the branch clusters of the creosote bush of the pattern of its leaves. We try to copy these patterns in our lives and in our society, seeking the rhythms, the dances, the forms that comfort. Yet, it is possible to see peril in the finding of ultimate perfection. It is clear that the ultimate pattern contains its own fixity. In such perfection, all things move towards death.”
>>70333822
where'd you get a recording of him saying it?
I found him reading some of God Emperor on youtube and still found it amusing that Leto is pronounced Lay-to
>>70333793
I really appreciate it anon, but I prefer to actually touch the book
But I can get a small grasp from reading the .pdf, thank you
>>70333621
That's what the Emperor does. But the Fremen don't have thousands of shitty environments, they only have Dune.
>>70333644
Hardship and training which arguably the Fremen would have plenty of. But this environment is also averse to having large numbers that are necessary for winning any war. You can see it on real world examples like Ghurkas.
>>70328439
>fits into film well.
Nonsense, "Dune" (let alone the entire series) is too big of a story to fit in a 2-hour theatrical movie, which means the story will have be changed to fit the time constraints and that means it will have to suck.
What's needed is the money and talent of a theatrical movie, with the multiple hours to tell the story available with a tv series.
>>70333848
eh, the Sardaukar were probably doped up on a dozen other drugs that improved combat efficiency so it's probably not that big of a divide
I'm still sticking to the idea being the strength of the Fremen culture being the deciding factor rather than just fighting skill. Shit like the tau orgy at the death of Jamis or Jessica not having to check if her food were poisoned was all put in there to drive home that point about their power coming from the entire society behaving as one organism with one singular goal.
>>70333970
I could see it working within multiple movies. When Ridley Scott attempted the film, and when Lynch was hired, the film was planned to be split into two.
One film for the beginning political intrigue, that ends with the carefully planned coup, the second, where Paul just gets his shit fucked up and becomes a shiny golden god of death.
>>70328606
>Jordorowsky
If you had any understanding of what Jodorowsky is all about, you'd know the movie would have been ridiculous artsy-fartsy shit.
>>70333966
There's like 10 million Fremen and anyone who can't survive or fight is either sent into the desert or taken for their water.
>>70334046
>>70333895
http://www.usul.net/books/sounds.htm
Lots of surprising ones here. I was also stressing the wrong syllable in 'Alia'.
>>70333970
Francis Coppola or Christopher Nolan. They will be great directors for the Dune show.
>>70334046
Yeah but it would have had Mick Jagger as Feyd and Salvador Dali as the emperor. Like, just, it's fucking so amazingly absurd, it's a fucking shame there was never a movie where such an assortment of people would have been on screen together.
>>70333970
A trilogy with 2 movies for Dune and one for Messiah.
>>70334118
Nah. 10 episode Netflix miniseries for Dune. If it's successful, 5 more for Messiah, 8 for Children, and 10 for God Emperor.
>>70334090
>>70334118
It doesn't matter who is in charge, all Hollywood movies and tv shows are written by the studio/network's marketing dept.
They don't make art anymore, then make long-form commercials...
>>70334196
I just want to see giant worms ridden by psychic zensunni natives again, properly, in an incomprehensibly alien setting impossible to set on screen, is that so hard.
>>70333787
I agree it's not the whole thing but it's a pretty important aspect of it. The Fremen by all means just shouldn't have the numbers or the means to do all that shit they do.
>>70334037
>I could see it working within multiple movies.
Theatrical movies are a dead-end, they're all about the "cinematic universe" to insure sequels that teenagers will be willing to $15 to see.
TV is where it's at but it has to fight an uphill battle, as Hollywood makes a fuck load of cash off ADD-addled teens in a very short time with theatrical movies.
>>70334196
eh, you get the occasional passion project still
my concern would be a well-made Dune adaptation that stays true to the books but is also entertaining, and then studio execs trying to milk money out of sequels from books that progressively contain less action and more philosophising.
I can't imagine a worse experience than being someone passionate about making a true-to-the-books Dune movie, succeeding, and then having to turn God Emperor into a nonstop action rollercoaster somehow
>>70334072
>There's like 10 million Fremen
That's exactly what I'm talking about. 10 million people in a desert is straight up impossible. There isn't enough to eat or drink. There isn't anything to make any sophisticated weapons out of.
>>70334343
Hope is a mistake. But I see, it at least being adapted once before I die. And hopefully, it'll be just good enough. I don't have any high expectations.
But it hurts me delicate little heart that somehow, someway, this could be presented on screen in such a way without narration to drive the points of the novels home without it feeling fast and forced. But alas, all sweet dreams.
>>70334414
they could probably manage resources better through generational spice. Genetic memory spirit mumbo jumbo, all that. I forgot everything, but the Fremen aren't essentially human. I don't think there's really anyone who can be seen as really human at the point in the future Dune takes place in.
I could see a lot of human sacrifice for the water of their bodies. They have rules for combat where the victor is put into machinery and drained of blood distilled to drink, we know as such when Paul duels Jamis.
>>70334350
> mfw Disney buys the rights for 'Dune cinematic universe'
>>70334342
it is emphasised throughout Dune that the Harkonnen just viewed the Fremen as trash and estimated their numbers in the thousands and couldn't survive in the South, when there really were tens of millions with major strongholds in the South. That was the main reason the Sardaukar kept underestimating them and losing the initial battles, but by the climax of Dune they had learned to adapt and the tide was turning. Don't forget Paul's first son got killed by the Sardaukar when they destroyed one of the (supposedly safe) Sietches in the South as part of their massive pogrom of the Fremen.
The reason they won was because the Emperor came to Arrakeen with such a small personal detachment of Sardaukar. That combined with the fact that no one expected Paul to use atomic weapons and sandworms carrying Fremen (not to mention a massive sand storm at the right moment) is what won it for the Fremen and allowed Paul to take the Emperor hostage.
The real victory that day wasn't from military prowess though, it was the diplomatic angle. Paul got some support from the Bene Gesserit by proving he was the Kwisatz Haderach, a lot from CHOAM by promising to keep the money flowing, and the total support of the Guild by threatening to destroy the Spice if they didn't give him what he wanted (a threat they knew wasn't idle because their prescient ability showed a moment very close in the future where they couldn't navigate anymore).
So yeah the Fremen were pretty strong but Paul won because of diplomacy and a perfectly-planned attack on the Emperor when he was weak. A prolonged war against the Sardaukar with Guild support would have been impossible, even for the Fremen led by Paul
>>70334350
>then having to turn God Emperor into a nonstop action rollercoaster somehow
That's my point; the story doesn't work with a theatrical movie format so the studio would inevitably fuck it up, but it is perfect for an hourly tv series over multiple seasons, yet needs sufficient money and talent to make it work and the networks are all about money laundering nowadays. *coughGoTcough*
Also, "Heretics" and "Chapterhouse" are the most "action packed" parts of the story.
>>70334510
Except every human sacrifice is one man less fighting.
Herbert had good imagination but he didn't know shit about warfare and logistics and it shows.
>>70334664
Eh, it's not a novel about war. War is just more the consequences of Paul's actions not touched upon by Herbert for a reason. He has his weaknesses, but the prose and setting and politics, all of it is just so intoxicating that it's kind of ignorable. At least to me.
jesus I'm moving through the synopses on wikipedia but it never ends does it. It never ends
>>70334436
I ain't the most tech savvy person but it seems to me there has to a point where CGI technology becomes so cheep yet high quality that all kinda stories can easily and correctly be adapted in a long tv series format.
I'd be cool with an "Avatar"-tier quality adaption of "Dune" and the other books.
>>70334414
>10 million people in a desert is straight up impossible. There isn't enough to eat or drink. There isn't anything to make any sophisticated weapons out of.
That's what the Emperor thought.
He was wrong.
>>70334414
10 million people on an entire planet is easy, even if it's desert. Look at Mongolia. It's majority desert and barren rock and yet some shitty nomads from it conquered half the world thanks to a tough upbriging, good leadership, and capable diplomacy and neighbours to steal technology from
>There isn't enough to eat or drink.
deserts aren't completely devoid of life. There's animals and plants, just scattered and you have to know what you're doing to get nutrition from them.
>There isn't anything to make any sophisticated weapons out of.
Sure there is. They use sandworm teeth for knives. There's stone and metals for tools. There's plants and spice for making plastics and chemical explosives (which is one of the big things Paul teaches the Fremen). And there's always the ability to raid the cities of the graben and pan for rarer off-world materials
>>70334772
It ends. But Herbert planned on another novel, but died before he could make it. It ends on Chapterhouse, implying there is a consciousness out there in the galaxy, not of man. Unseen, unpredictable, all knowing.
Whether he planned on bringing an intelligent race of aliens on board, who can say. I'm glad it ends on a cliff hanger where we can only assume.
>>70332317
The Stars my destination was fucking insane, best version of The Count of Monte Cristo ever.
>>70334563
"Disney, you say? Where do we sign?"....
>>70334893
worst nightmare
>>70334664
>Except every human sacrifice is one man less fighting.
Sacrifice the old and the crippled.
Problem solved.
You have nor right to call out Herbert's knowledge of warfare when you can't even perform basic problem solving using simple logic.
>>70334655
yeah but Heretics and Chapterhouse are kind of shit. Humanity has been saved by Leto II so there really aren't any stakes anymore. It's all new characters the reader doesn't really care about that much (maybe Duncan and Miles Teg). The Bene Gesserit have become some sort of utopian meritocracy of Mary Sues while the Bene Tleilaxu have become generic Saturday morning cartoon-tier villains.
I always got the feeling that Herbert's heart wasn't really in the last two books and he was just writing to keep writing. Couldn't have helped that his wife died around that time. They just seem so much less inspired and lacking in major themes
this has been a beautiful thread.
Are you a human or just another animal, /tv/?
>>70334851
Hell let's not leave out the important fact that they're bribing the Guild to block satellite placement over the planet.
We're not talking about a handful of Bedouins scratching their asses in the sand, there's essentially an entire parallel Fremen civilization operating under everyone's nose with no one the wiser.
>>70335044
An animal. Lord knows everyone in this thread would fail the gom-jabbar
Open casting call!
>>70335096
What if a Dune movie made byDisneyis our Gom Jabbar?
>>70334796
Avatar wasn't cheap. There were/are thousands of people working on that.
>>70335143
Oh fug. Still animals though, there would be riots.
>>70335096
>tfw used to stick your hand out of the car window into the sixty mile an hour freezing rain in the winter to try and replicate the gom-jabbar when you were a kid
>>70335173
I know, thus:
>there has to a point where CGI technology becomes so cheep yet high quality
>>70335204
>>tfw used to stick your hand out of the car window into the sixty mile an hour freezing rain in the winter to try and replicate the gom-jabbar when you were a kid
Holy shit wew
>>70335210
But that point isn't getting any closer. Productions are just throwing more and more people at the problem, because the only way to really do CGI well is to have ten assholes working on each blade of grass.
>>70335134
>>70327297
probably be best if it was done as a syfy cartoon series (i.e red planet/starchaser: legend of orion/heavy metal) style
i also enjoyed the jowdarsky documentary
>>70335320
>>70335058
and this was a generation after Kynes first came to the planet, went native, and introduced them to some basic scientific thinking, knowledge about the universe beyond Dune, and planted the goal of turning Arrakis into a paradise into their collective conscience.
The Fremen had been modernising and uniting long before the Sardaukar set foot on their planet, not to mention getting plenty of training against shielded enemies by fighting Harkonnen patrols. If the whole Dune fiasco happened 200 years earlier the Fremen probably would have gotten curbstomped by fighting a foe they had never encountered or even envisioned
>>70335143
Does refusing to see that abomination make me at least a little bit human?
>>70334851
I don't recall the radius of the planet being specified either. Could be greater than Earth.
>>70335134
as much as I hate him getting typecast as a psychopath, Cillian Murphy would be a perfect Piter de Vries. He's described in the books as frail, effeminate, emotionless until the Baron pushes his buttons, and with the eyes of a killer.
That said Brad Douriff was GOAT and did a pretty great Piter with his own touches
>>70335320
>not based jessica chastain, who's hotter and a better actress. Also ultimate mommyfu
What are you even doing anon?
I only read Dune a few months ago but this thread makes me want to re-read it.
>>70327297
Dune is too long and intricate to make a good movie and the politics will bore audiences.
Laurence of space hamlet was a pretty sick book though.
>>70335495
I like him for Leto II, personally.
>>70334822
And he should've been right.
>>70334851
>entire planet
Did Paul really pull Fremen from all around the planet though?
Also, Mongolia has steppes, which are great for horses. Desert isn't completely devoid of life but it sure as fuck is not liveful enough to sustain a large population.
>stone and metals
Where and who's mining it? What with?
>raid the cities
That's not a very reliable source.
I mean you can excuse it all with spice but that's pretty shitty writing.
>>70333970
A trilogy for Dune (like they did for the Hobbit) and then a second trilogy for Messiah, Children, and God Emperor. (1 movie each) That way, you get more money from releasing 3 films, and you can gauge the reaction of the first trilogy to see if the second trilogy is going to happen.
>>70335655
His legend spread, yes. The Benejesseret speard the prophesy and Paul Muhadib became a messiah, yes they all followed him
>>70335727
One thing i never understood correctly, maybe you guys can help me.
Alright, so the Bene Gesserit were trying to create a prophet using Jessica, and it was supposed to be the third generation after Jessica and Leto I, but it turned out that Paul was that prophet, right?
I never quite got that part of the book.
>>70335855
they got Paul as the prophet a generation early
>>70335655
My point about Mongolia was a small population from a tough environment that conquered a huge swath of the world. Mongolia today is 3 million people, it was definitely a lot less in Genghis Khan's time, and yet it swept through China, India, and Russia which easily had hundreds of millions of people
Or look at the fucking Arabs who conquered North Africa and the Middle East in a generation even though they came from buttfuck nowhere in the desert
And Dune describes the Fremen economy. There's sietch factories that produce the plastics for their windtraps and dewcatchers and weapons. There's thopters and other vehicles seized from the Harkonnen, from the towns, or from wreckages in the desert.
And most importantly, the Fremen had huge amount of Spice, the most valuable substance in the universe, and smugglers constantly crossed Dune. Esmar Tuek was one introduced in the very beginning that was very friendly with them. It's the equivalent of desert nomads trading you tons of gold they have no use for and asking for tools and basic materials that would be commonplace in the rest of the galaxy
>>70335855
Jessica was supposed to give birth to a daughter who would then be married to a male Harkonnen heir. The genes and shit would line up then and that son would have been the Kwisatz Haderach, and would have been married to one of Shaddam's daughters to sit on the throne as a Bene Gesserit puppet emperor
>>70335693
I don't see how a Dune trilogy would work really. I mean it is divided into 3 books but they don't really make satisfying separate movies.
I mean the first movie with the battle for Arrakeen would be fine, even if it ends on kind of a dour note and puts the whole "heavy drama" of the story at the beginning instead of in the middle.
But what would the second movie be? Paul learning to live with the Fremen? There's really no major events hear to build around, barely any action even other than some minor raids against the Harkonnen and smugglers
>>70336040
Maybe the whole initiation of Paul stepping into the Melange water and accepting the role of Muad'Dib
