WTF, I hate Japan now!
>>70106711
>28 year old film
>now
Reminder that the Atomic Bombs weren't necessary for ending the war and it was really the USSR's belligerency that pushed Japan to accept the unconditional surrender.
>>70106711
eh, on the bright side of things... bombing them gave them close experiences with explosions so they hand draw the prettiest explosions for us.
>>70106853
here's your (You)
>>70106968
Here's some reading to support the claim if you're interested in learning something
http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/
>>70106853
>>70107063
Hi there shitty Reddit contrarian. Why don't you go read about how the Emperor explicitly stated his intent to surrender after Nagasaki, while his hardass generals attempted a failed coup, and how Stalin didn't have the navy to invade Japan
>>70107063
>here's some biased reading that only present half the facts in an attempt to rewrite the actualities of the situation
This is the problem with the internet, honestly. People take some article as an actual account of history.
>>70107250
> Emperor explicitly stated his intent to surrender after Nagasaki
I encourage you to read the link. 68 Japanese cities had already been burned to the ground from conventional bombing by the time of Nagasaki. Surviving records from top Japanese officials show that the destruction of cities was not a pressing concern for their overall strategy (i.e. finding an acceptable conclusion to the war). It was only when the USSR entered into the conflict that their plans when tits up because they depended on the USSR to mediate the peace negotiations with the US. The USSR was also running through Japanese defenses in Manchuria and it was estimated they could be on the Mainland in 10 days at the fastest.
The bomb ending the war was a convenient narrative that has little basis in reality. The japanese embraced it because it swept their mismanagement of the war under the rug and made them the 'victims of a new horrible superweapon' instead of the brutal aggressors. America embraced it because it made the US military look untouchable and made the 2 billion dollars spent on the Manhattan project look like a tremendous success.
>>70107520
>the japanese were depending on their aggressor to mediate a peace treaty with another country
Jesus. And what, the US invasion plans completely forgot that Russia was going to make a flank attack from the west? Read the actual accounts and documents, included Japan's continued efforts in attacking the US mainland via balloon (yes this happened and people died) until the bombings.
>>70107520
That's all speculation and it doesn't make sense.
The US was already on their coastline. The nukes could have easily hit Kyoto or where ever Tojo was. That was the point of dropping them.
>>70107738
>the japanese were depending on their aggressor to mediate a peace treaty with another country
The soviets & Japan had signed a 5 year neutrality agreement back in 1940/41. They were neutral until the Soviets declared war & invaded on August 8 1945. Until that time Japan was actively engage in persuading the USSR to mediate a peace between the US and Japan.
It was USSR's belligerency that shut that door to their diplomatic options, not Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
The bombs ending the war is a story that's been passed down. Not an accurate account of events.
>>70106853
Did you just get finished watching The Untold History of the United States?
I realize, ultimately, that it wasn't necessary. But there was no way for Truman to know that. He acted on the best information and made a rational call. But if we admit that it wasn't necessary, even with all of those qualifications, then we're just giving the SJWs some more ammo to pour on their white guilt crusade. So I'll never admit it.
In the Emperor's surrender speech, he mentioned the Atomic bomb, but did not mention the Soviet declaration of war.
Checkmate, atheists
>>70108353
>Soviets declared war & invaded on August 8 1945
The soviets went in to take back Sakhalin that Russia lost in 1905. They were never anywhere near the Japanese mainland
>>70108438
I'm not even opining that dropping the bombs was the wrong thing to do. It was entirely understandable from the American POV and you can make a convincing argument that the atomic bombs weren't even worse than the conventional bombing raids that took place at the same time.
I'm only trying to dispel the misconception that the bombs 'ended the war'.
>>70108653
Well they did, so you're still retarded.
>>70108353
The Russians entered Mongolia with 1 million men. Do you know how long it takes to transport that many soldiers to a battlefront? The Japanese were well aware they're forces on the mainland were going to be attacked.
What's more the first atom bomb was dropped before the Russians even attacked to begin with and they still did not surrender.
>diplomatic options
Diplomacy was already on and off the table. The US would not accept anything but unconditional surrender.
>>70108714
You're holding onto a story like its fact.
The bombs ending the war is a narrative that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. You can argue that their use was reasonable or understandable, but when you start claiming that they 'ended the war' or 'compelled the Japanese to surrender' you're just telling fairy tales.
>>70108855
No, you're doing that.
Dropping the nukes was justified,
1. Ended the War
2.Ended War before Japan became Soviet
3.Too see what it would do
4.They are much better off today
if anything we didn't use nearly enough nukes on those filthy rats
>>70108802
>The Japanese were well aware they're forces on the mainland were going to be attacked.
By Americans. They were prepared to use their soldiers lives against the lives of American invaders to compel the US to accept a conditional peace. They were never prepared to defend against TWO superpowers.
> Do you know how long it takes to transport that many soldiers to a battlefront?
In the age of motorized transport against negligible defense? Weeks at the longest.
>What's more the first atom bomb was dropped before the Russians even attacked to begin with and they still did not surrender.
Only strengthening the argument that the Bombs were not what compelled Japanese surrender.
>Diplomacy was already on and off the table. The US would not accept anything but unconditional surrender.
The option was still open until the USSR declared war. The option being wiped from the table did more to convince Japanese leaders of the prudence of an unconditional surrender than another city being wiped from their map.
>>70108855
you sound like dumb kid who discovered some DEEP WW2 LORE on the internet and thinks everyone else is a glib because they haven't read the same dumbshit reddit post as you did.
The atomic bombs fucked the Japs' shit up so bad, they will talk about it for centuries to come. It is ingrained in their culture now. Godzilla is the result of the atomic bomb. In Akira, Tokyo is destroyed by the atomic bomb etc etc. Nobody fucking talks about firebombings, because as devastating as it was, it didn't have the same devastating psychological impact as those two bombs did
>>70107520
You are forgetting one (well, two) very important things.
1. The Japanese didn't know how many atom bombs the USA had
2. Conventional air raids involved hundreds of planes and thousands of airmen. A nuclear strike could be done with just one.
Worst case scenario for Japan, the US had downs of atom bombs (we didn't, but of course they didn't know that) and would be laughably capable of dropping them at will.
>>70106711
>Japan literally literally BTFO
Kill one man and you are a murderer. Kill millions and you are a conqueror.
Everybody loves AMERICA.
>>70109144
>By Americans. They were prepared to use their soldiers lives against the lives of American invaders to compel the US to accept a conditional peace. They were never prepared to defend against TWO superpowers.
See, this is what happens when you only read on biased story. Stalin flat-out announced he was going to attack Japan at the Potsdamn Conference months earlier. Everyone knew Stalin was going to attack.
>Weeks at the longest.
Yes, weeks and weeks of troops and munitions being shipped to the border. Japan was blind to all of this by your reasoning.
>Only strengthening the argument that the Bombs were not what compelled Japanese surrender.
And yet they didn't surrender until the US dropped a second one.
>The option was still open until the USSR declared war.
See first post. Relations between Japan and Russia were weak at best. Once Germany fell, everyone, including the Japanese, knew Stalin was going to get that land back.
>>70109273
None of that has anything to do with the deliberations of the Japanese high command on the eve of surrender.
The psychological impact is a symptom of the narrative that sprung up around the bomb. Not proof that the bombs were the deciding factor.
Again the narrative of the bomb falls apart when you consider that 68 cities had already been destroyed BEFORE Hiroshima & Nagasaki.
>>70109516
>Again the narrative of the bomb falls apart when you consider that 68 cities had already been destroyed BEFORE Hiroshima & Nagasaki.
Why?
>>70109516
>japan's high council in surrender
>fucking a-bombs, man...
>the bombs had nothing to do with the surrender #pearlharborwasstaged #9/11too
>>70109516
>Not proof that the bombs were the deciding factor.
There is a shit ton of proof, you just choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrative.
>68 cities had already been destroyed BEFORE Hiroshima & Nagasaki.
Cities got destroyed by conventional means throughout both continents of Europe and Japan, because it was a World fucking War. That doesn't change the fact that weapon what can wipe out an entire major city in one single stroke is on the same level as conventional bombings that took hundreds of planes and hundreds of sorties to come even close to the same level of destruction.
That's like saying arrows and machine guns are on the same level because they kill people at a distance. If your enemy can wipe out an entire fucking city with one plane and one bomb that's a pretty big game changer.
>>70109758
*continents of Europe and Asia
>>70109363
There weren't any cities left to blow up.
The US was already expanded their targets to "cities" of 30,000 because everything else bigger than that (besides Kyoto which Stimson had declared off-limits) was already burned to a crisp.
>>70109429
>And yet they didn't surrender until the US dropped a second one.
America could have dropped 10 and it wouldn't have changed the relevant facts of the matter for the Japanese high command. The soviet entry into the war is what made a negotiated peace hopeless and ultimately compelled Japan to accept an unconditional surrender. Even Japanese MODERATES said that the bombing campaigns would only "strength the japanese resolve against the invaders". The idea that the Atomic Bombs were "soo horrible" that it forced Japan to capitulate even after they had watched while DOZENS of cities were burning to the ground is a myth.
And they didn't surrender AFTER America had dropped the second one. It was a week after Nagasaki that the Japanese finally composed their surrender. Not exactly the break-neck speed of someone concerned about bombs raining from the sky now is it?
>Stalin flat-out announced he was going to attack Japan at the Potsdamn Conference
Gonna need a source on that
>>70109835
>Not exactly the break-neck speed of someone concerned about bombs raining from the sky now is it?
Because it was the Emperor's decision to surrender, and the rest of the government was trying to stop him. He had to smuggle the recording of his surrender out to the people. These things are a matter of historical record.
obama already kind of said he's sorry.
everything's a-ok now. no reason to keep arguing
>>70109758
>That doesn't change the fact that weapon what can wipe out an entire major city in one single stroke is on the same level as conventional bombings that took hundreds of planes and hundreds of sorties to come even close to the same level of destruction.
That doesn't matter because there weren't any cities left to blow up. The destruction of cities was NOT a pressing matter in the deliberations of the Japanese high command. Whether it be by A-bomb or firebomb, the relevant facts were unchanged.
>>70109952
>That doesn't matter because there weren't any cities left to blow up.
Yes there were
>The destruction of cities was NOT a pressing matter in the deliberations of the Japanese high command.
Where do you get that?
>>70109952
They didn't care about the inevitable destruction of the Japanese people by American bombings, but they caved to a bit of pressure from the Russians?
You're being an idiot and arguing against established historical fact.
>The idea that the Atomic Bombs were "soo horrible" that it forced Japan to capitulate even after they had watched while DOZENS of cities were burning to the ground is a myth.
The idea that your enemy can wipe out a city with one plane is a major factor.
>>70109835
>Gonna need a source on that
Google Potsdamn Conference, you fucking idiot. Stalin actually pushed his attack forward twice.
>>70110021
>Japan’s leaders consistently displayed disinterest in the city bombing that was wrecking their cities. And while this may have been wrong when the bombing began in March of 1945, by the time Hiroshima was hit, they were certainly right to see city bombing as an unimportant sideshow, in terms of strategic impact. When Truman famously threatened to visit a “rain of ruin” on Japanese cities if Japan did not surrender, few people in the United States realized that there was very little left to destroy. By August 7, when Truman’s threat was made, only 10 cities larger than 100,000 people remained that had not already been bombed. Once Nagasaki was attacked on August 9, only nine cities were left. Four of those were on the northernmost island of Hokkaido, which was difficult to bomb because of the distance from Tinian Island where American planes were based.
Also
>On August 8, Foreign Minister Togo Shigenori went to Premier Suzuki Kantaro and asked that the Supreme Council be convened to discuss the bombing of Hiroshima, but its members declined.
The Japanese high command thought the bombing of Hiroshima was too unimportant to discuss. That's not because they didn't know what an A-bomb was, Japan had their own atomic bomb program, it was because the bombing of cities was not seen as a pressing matter by the Japanese.
>>70110178
It's already been established that the High Command didn't want to surrender, and they never did. All of that is irrelevant.
>>70110083
>The idea that your enemy can wipe out a city with one plane is a major factor.
It really isn't when there's nothing left to bomb. Whether they use one plane or 500 the result is the same.
>Google Potsdamn Conference, you fucking idiot. Stalin actually pushed his attack forward twice.
The Japanese weren't privy to that, and the Soviet Union wasn't a party to the Potsdam Declaration so it had no effect on the deliberations of the Japanese high officials. For all they knew the option to lobby the USSR to mediate a peace was still open.
