>Ned felt Bran's presence during the tree
>Bran can go back in time but not change anything unless he actually changed it himself
>Ned probably felt Bran's presence before he was executed as he realized he was about to die
>Ned definitely whispered something before being decapitated
So what did Ned whisper to Bran who was without a doubt observing his execution?
"Jet fuel can't melt Baratheon genes"
Thank fuck I'm done with this show
>>69913045
Apparently Sean Bean didn't even watch a single scene
If he went back in time and stopped himself from climbing that tower where he fell what would happen? He wouldn't have got his powers so he couldn't have gone back in time and stopped himself from climbing which means he would have climbed and got his powers. This is all very confusing
>>69913167
I couldn't stop himself because it's already done.
>>69913167
There's nothing confusing you stupid shit.
YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE PAST.
>>69913167
He. Can. NOT. Go. Back. And. Change. The. Fucking. Past.
Everyone on tv is retarded. Fuck y'all.
>>69913022
Why you gotta make me laugh so hard
>>69913045
See you next week
>>69913213
>>69913254
>>69913265
Didn't young ned acknowledge him though? How could that have already happened?
>>69913254
>>69913265
I think a better way to say it is that he's already changed the past, we're just learning how as he is
>>69913213
>>69913254
>>69913265
What if he goes back to before he changed the past and changes his mind on what he's going to change
>>69913317
Young Ned noticed him before Bran saw it in the vision. It always happened, only when we first saw it was when Bran first saw it.
>>69913346
Well yea... But that dude was talking about like now why doesn't he just go back. People all over the board don't get it. I honestly think it's trolling. But yes, that's a better way to put it.
>>69913383
Bran wasn't even alive then so how could he acknowledge him you spacca
>>69913379
He already decided. Even if he does go back to that point he can't change what he decided the first time. It's a loop that will always be the way it is.
>>69913383
Didn't Bran going back to that moment cause Ned to feel his presence though? How could it have happened if Bran wasn't born yet?
>>69913379
HE CANT, OTHERWISE HIS MIND WOULD'VE ALREADY BEEN CHANGED REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>69913416
Because he didn't actually see Bran. He didn't notice Bran his son, he noticed a whisper in the wind.
>>69913455
then who was whisper?
>>69913444
He went back there because the Raven took him there. Most likely so Bran could realize he could affect the world through his visions.
>>69913443
Who sez? If the people can see him, touch him and hear him then he can change what happens
>>69913452
No, his mind can't already be changed if he's just thought of it in the present but hasn't gone in the past to change it yet
>>69913484
Jesus, how retarded are you?
>>69913516
People can't see him. They can't touch him. They can hear him some times. The night king touched him because he's the night king
WHY IS THE CONCEPT OF TIME TRAVEL AND FIXED TIMELINE SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND 4U /TV/ REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
I swear all the normies I know that watched it get it already.
>>69913516
NO BECAUSE HIS CURRENT MIND WOULD BE CHANGED BY LAST LOOP OF EVENTS, IT GOES ROUND IN A CIRCLE WITH EVERYTHING IN THE CIRCLE WRITTEN IN STONE
>Why cant he change the past
BECAUSE IF HE HAS CHANGED THE PAST IN THE LAST LOOP ITS ALREADY CHANGED
>>69913568
If he made the whisper from present time then he is affecting the past, how could a bran that doesn't exist make a noise?
>People can't see him. They can't touch him. They can hear him some times. The night king touched him because he's the night king
These are just stupid arbitrary rules that you just made up.
>>69913568
Oh so nobody can touch him except the night king because durr he's the knight king. And you're getting on at me for not understanding this time travel shit when even the writers aren't consistent with their rules and writing.
>>69913575
Yeah but how does Hodor lose his mind in the first place if bran can't change the past?
Bran wasn't there in the past.
Who doesn't he just warg into every Lannister in the past and make them all downs syndrome
>>69913624
You just said it yourself. He can change the past but it just starts a new loop so the past has been changed but to him it feels like it hasn't, but the audience still know it's been changed
>>69913575
this
just go watch harry potter 3
it explains fixed timeline timetravel pretty well
>>69913656
He did exist. But he's seeing what he already did. He can't affect it any longer after the first time. The part with Hordor already happened. We were just seeing it unfold. He alters it only one time. The time we saw. Can't change it in any other way.
>>69913678
Come on anon. He didn't change the past. He was in the past and make him retarded. It's not changing the past, it's only what is supposed to happen.
So you are all missing a huge part of the time-travel aspect. Evidently your tiny heads are literally imploding, which is amazing because it means you are literally more retarded than dabid + dabid.
If Bran arrives in the barrow with Hodor rather than Wylis, then the "Hold the Door" event has already taken place sometime in Bran's future. Therefore if Hodor exists and not Wylis, Bran definitely has fucked up in the future.
It is removing the requirement of cause --> effect. Here effects can come before causes and therefore effects can 'cause' the cause in a sense.
You follow me you dense PoS? If the cause has happened at ANY time along the timeline, the effect will be felt. Like normal time progression, you cannot stop an effect from taking place after the cause.
>>69913720
Good call. And Twelve Monkeys too. A lot of people could use it.
>>69913749
That's a terrible explanation and I'm on your side.
>>69913749
Or should I say, "You cannot stop an effect from taking place if the cause takes place." Chronology no longer matters for le ebin stork of 420 greendreams.
>>69913656
No, they're arbitrary rules that the show and books set. How stupid are you? He's literally entering memories. He can affect the past to some extent through the memories. He doesn't need to exist in the past to do so.
>>69913658
The night king is a magic being. This is a fantasy show. Bran is literally a ghost when visiting the past and the magical zombie king saw it.
There haven't been any inconsistencies, just you being retarded
>>69913720
Yeah but what happens if Harry just decided he wanted to kill somebody when he was back in time saving buckbeak and Sirius? Are you saying if Harry theortically did a killing curse on someone it would have no effect? Hermione broke the pot when she threw a stone.
Now that Bran can time travel, he should go back and tell Aerys to execute Cersei and tell Aerys it's because she'll destroy the Kingdom someday
It would save a lot of people in the future tbqh
>>69913678
not the same guy,
he essentially could do that shit to the lannisters, but because nothing has happened in the present, then he has not done so or will ever do so.
Anything he changes in the past, is applied in the present before he even found time travelling. So Hodor being retarded for example.
>>69913656
not same guy
>how could a bran that doesn't exist make a noise
idk what you mean but his whisper was heard by ned, but the consequences have not been revealed or it was completely insignificant. Maybe that's why Ned adopts Jon?
>>69913712
He cant change the past, but it can be revealed in the future that events that happened in the past were due to him, why do fucking normies struggle so much with this reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
>>69913720
Who saved Harry the first time around with the spell?
>>69913794
How is it so hard to understand? Timeline is locked and causes don't necessarily come after effects (cause-->effect and effect-->cause both possible). It's actually super simple and not at all cool/innovative time travel.
>>69913678
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
ENOUGH
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
MAKE IT STOP REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>69913802
You are well and truly beyond hope, jesus fucking christ
You all belong in /got/ general.
I cant believe how many fans there are for this shit tier high budget porn series. Stop shitting up this board with needless threads, fucking faggots.
>>69912972
>"Abandon the show after season 4, Isaac"
>>69913827
That sentence doesn't make any damn sense and you can't seem to explain it except for your muh normies autistic rambling.
Varys has no cock lmao
>>69913802
Then there would be a dead body to that present day harry who just decided to suddenly kill some faggot wizard.
But as there was no killing, then harry didnt do it.
It's like an invisible hand that keeps events in order to meet the present timeline.
Time is a flat circle in GoT. You cant change the circle - just keep traversing it. So Bran isnt changing the past. Hes just leaving instructions for when he traverses it again. Thats who the Three Eyed Raven was. A coach, because perhaps last time Bran fucked up big time for not understanding his power and using it wrongly.
This does however confirm that Bran is he most poweful goy in GoT
>>69913875
Just because the bullshit closed loop time-travel only works when you don't think about it doesn't mean people are retarded for suggesting you can't change the past
>>69913877
Not really. Hermione knew what was happening, she could have done something differently if she wanted
>>69913827
Your wording makes it harder for them
>He can't change the past but it can be revealed in the future that he changed the past.
>>69913945
Hermione didn't know because she hadn't experienced it.
Is Bran S tier now?
>>69913827
How can events in the past happen because of him if he can't change the past? He made his or retarded and he wasn't even alive then so he must have gone back and changed it
>>69914012
Night King is S tier, and maybe some powerful red priestess, i don't know. But Bran is not there yet.
>>69913936
>>69913936
Go home Rust, you're drunk
event 1 happens > causes event 2 etc > leads to character time traveling, who causes event 1 v
^------------------------------<------------------------------------<-------------------------<----------------------------------------<
I still don't understand how warging into present Hodor did anything to past Hodor.
What would happen if he just stood there and didn't make Hodor retarded ?
>>69914068
or how he could be in present hodor and in the past at the same time
>The pages are already written
>The ink is dry
>>69913905
>>69913945
>>69914045
You are mentally deficient
If he in the future chooses to go back and change something, it would've already been changed by him in his current timeline by the previous timelines version of him.
He cannot go back and fuck his mum because his mum wasnt fucked by him in the past.
so is he like god now or what
doesnt the red god and many faced whisper to their followers as well
>>69914119
Marty nearly fucked his mum
>>69914113
>Implying the timeline isn't already fixed
ARE YOU THIS STUPID, THE CONCEPT WAS SPOON-FED
>>69914012
Close, he's definitely headed that way though.
>>69914045
Look, Bran can't physically go back in time and make changes. For example, he can't go back in time and stop himself from making hodor retarded.
The past is the past and it's set. So in the past, Bran came into existence for a brief moment and made hodor retarded. This has always happened and will always happen. There is no past/present/future where hodor isn't a retard because Bran hadn't gone back in time yet.
Yes Bran can change the past, but all the events that have happened and will happen are unchangeable. If we see a scene in the next episode where Bran goes back in time to change something, he isn't really changing anything, he's creating it.
>>69912972
If that happened, it would be 100% retconning, the writers didn't know about what's going on now in S1
>>69914172
Not the same concept of time travel. GoT is fixed timeline/flat circle or whatever you want to call it.
>>69914061
and the circle is closed, so how can the story progress?
>>69914119
But can he go back and warg into Ned Stark and fuck his mum?
Can he fuck his aunt as someone else, and would that still be incest?
>>69913575
>>69913720
>>69913802
I would actually say the Time Machine explains the problems pointed out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Time_Machine_(2002_film)
>EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF BRAN WENT BACK IN TIME AND DID SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN (ie save Ned, or stop himself from climbing the tower)
>spoilers for the above film
In the Time Machine, an inventor falls in love with some bitch. After she's murdered by a mugger, he spends his life creating a time machine to go back and save her life
He succeeds and goes back to the day she was murdered
Instead of going down the route the mugger was at, he takes her down a different path thus preventing her murder. However, now what happens is that she is killed by being hit with a horse and carriage
Fuck
So he goes back in time again and stops her being hit with a horse and then instead she's killed in some other arbitrary way. So he keeps going back and she keeps dying. And he doesn't understand why he can't seem to save her life
It's then explained to him that he only built the time machine to travel back in time to save her because she was killed.
If she wasn't killed then he'd have no motivation to build a time machine, nevermind go back and prevent her from dying.
This is contrary to the multiple universe conception of time travel wherein every time you go back you make a new universe, here it's all the same universe
Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker Guide to the Galay set of books explain it as well (everything important has already been done)
And the film Predestination also deals with the concept
The actual problem with the episode is how Bran warging into Hodor in the past was linked to Hodor in the present
>>69914068
>>69914101
The way I took it was that Bran couldn't control his power and fucked up without knowing it. The wargs weren't simultaneously, he fucked young hodor after old hodor was already warged
>>69914215
Yes yes, and maybe.
>>69914181
So what happens if he stabs someone in the brain and cuts their head off then drowns the head. They don't die from it because they're not dead in the future?
>>69914267
Do you think Bran is John Snow's father?
>>69914181
>Yes Bran can change the past, but all the events that have happened and will happen are unchangeable
you fucked up, senpai
>>69914243
But how do you warg someone while already being warged in someone?
>>69914234
>The actual problem with the episode is how Bran warging into Hodor in the past was linked to Hodor in the present
I dont think it was, i literally just think that after all those years of dreams about holding the door, hodor had a moment of clarity and realised his calling in life was to keep it closed
Bran accidentally fucked up past hodor while trying to warg into present hodor and make him keep the door closed and it was hodors decision to die
>>69914268
He can't cut their brain
If he tried it would turn out that that person was a different person to who he thought, ssomehow recovered from the brain damage or had been hiding their brain damage in the present the entire time
>>69914234
Except in GoT there are no alternate timelines.
In the inside the episode thing, they said the 3ER was "uploading knowledge" to Bran, does that mean they can share knowledge like some vulcan mind meld type deal? Does Bran "know things" now that he didn't before?
>Bran stands around in the past doing absolutely nothing while Hodor seizes up
I don't understand this.
Bran looked like he was doing fuck all, but apparently he was warging...?
He was having a vision, and at the same time... warged into young Hodor? Even though his eyes never changed and he just stood there looking at the events unfold?
I understand the loop, I just don't understand how Bran is specifically involved, or exactly what he did or didn't do to Hodor.
>>69914268
>So what happens if he stabs someone in the brain and cuts their head off then drowns the head
That particular person is dead in the future if he is capable of doing that.
If the person was alive in the future it means he wasnt capable or chose not to chop their head off
>>69914268
What happens if you fly, or walk through a wall, or stop being an idiot?
You can't do any of those thing, and Bran can't stab a guy that wasn't already stabbed by a time traveler.
HE'S GONNA TAKE YOU BACK TO THE PAST
>>69914369
>I understand the loop, I just don't understand how Bran is specifically involved, or exactly what he did or didn't do to Hodor.
This is exactly the same as me.
>>69914268
He can't physically make changes in the past, he's a ghost. But let me indulge your stupidity. If he did that, it wouldn't change the past because prior to him doing it in the present, he showed up in the past and did it.
>>69914293
No, why would I? I was answering a hypothetical
>>69914304
I didn't. All events that will happen have happened Bran can't go back and change something. He can't go back in time and stop himself from falling.
>>69914331
I don't know. Inception
>>69914460
FUCKING CONFIRMED.
BRAN IS JON SNOW'S DAD
GET HYPE
This is why you don't introduce time travel into the story unless you have a clear indication of how it's supposed to work in theory.
The loop makes marginal sense and the people who can't even grasp something that's marginally wrong says a lot.
>>69914331
What if you warg into another warg to make them warg while you're warging?
>>69914206
the plot barely progresses anyway
>>69912972
>if sanser ever gits marrehd, wahg inta the fooker on er weddin naht an giv er one from meh. Promise meh, Bran.
>>69914331
that's what killed him
>>69914206
because bran can leave the time travel 'world' after he has cause event 1 and resume the present timeline
>>69914369
I think the stress of the situation fucked with his power, or maybe the Raven was exerting some control over Bran to affect the past and when he died, Bran didn't know he could. His senses connected with the memory and since he was focused on hodor, it fucked with him.
>>69914369
>>69914453
when Bran goes back, people can have visions (or hear voices or something). At that time he was both in vision and worged in Hodor, when Meera started yelling young Hodor heard (had vision?) and had trauma
>>69914538
Until he can't and ends up causing parallel universes and timelines where he's Bran the Builder, Bran the Bloody, Bran the Coldhands (but not really because they neglected to mention that important part of the story), Bran the Three-eyed Raven, Bran the Rhaegar, Bran the Baratheon, Bran the Bron, and Bran the Bran.
>>69914502
Or people are fucking retards. It's really not that hard. I understand you get it, but you can't say it's that convoluted.
>>69914460
>I didn't. All events that will happen have happened Bran can't go back and change something. He can't go back in time and stop himself from falling.
so how does
>Yes Bran can change the past
fit in?
>>69914619
>Bran the Bron
kek
>>69914586
So Bran didn't intentionally fuck up Hodor's life? Hodor wasn't ordered to hold the door by Bran in the past, it was Meera's speech entering the past through Bran that did?
>>69914586
So, he was linked to both present-Hodor and the past-vision, and the stress caused some overlap, is that what you're saying?
>>69914538
>He cant change the past, but it can be revealed in the future that events that happened in the past were due to him
But the present timeline is simply the past of a future that hasn't happened yet (tokes), so doesn't that negate free will?
>>69914621
Oh, I agree. It's definitely not convoluted in any sense of the word. Honestly understanding time travel, paradoxes and all is a very pathetically simple concept.
It's definitely more a fault of the typical viewer than anything, and there is a possibility this is just gonna lead to a mess of things if they keep trying to go down this path of Bran greenseeing.
>>69914624
I don't know how to make it more clearer than the quote you quoted.
The past is set. Bran from the future has already affected the past before he even existed. The past was never one way and then bran went back in time and then changed it. I guess a better way to say it is that no, Bran can't change the past, but he can go back and create it.
>>69913022
FPBP
>>69914662
Yes. That's why you hear her saying it and not Bran saying it. Young hodor was unwittingly tapped into Bran.
>>69914704
True.
>>69914624
He's not changing the past.
You travel back in time to tell Hitler that the jews are good. However because of your actions, you led Hitler to killing the jews. You may have time traveled, but your direct actions caused it.
That is what happened with Bran. He went back to the past, but he is the reason that the event occurred in the first place. It's a loop, one action can't happen without the other.
>>69914349
I didn't say there were, read it again
>>69913575
There are different ideas on how time travel works. With this sort of closed time loop, you have to ignore how the first iteration came to happen.
>>69914809
>One timeline, mugger kills her
>Second timeline, she gets run-over
>>69914677
maybe free will does exist in a way, but your choices are predetermined without you knowing
>ITT
>underaged teenagers on /tv/ are exposed to determinate time-travel for the first time through Game of Thrones
So it kinda looks like Yara and Theon got a lot of ironborn to go with them.
Why not just turn the fleet around and use it directly against Euron and his shitty possy?
Also why is everyone so fucking cavalier about kinslaying this season?
"Lol lets go murder my neice and nephew, the children of your former king who I killed by the way"
>>69914861
The first iteration is the only iteration.
>>69914885
>implying harry potter 3 didn't do that already
>>69914882
Well it depends on your definition of 'free will', but epistemic determinism is the idea that if an action can be predicted with 100% confidence then it can't be freely willed.
Compatibilism probably gets a pass, but compatibilists are all benders imo.
>>69914876
It's not a second timeline, it's the same timeline being changed
Game of thrones doesn't work in the exact same way but I highlighted this understanding because it explains the idea of predetermined time-travel
In the time machine, the point is that he can't actually change anything that would alter the present
In Game of Thrones and films like Predestination and the third Harry Potter, they can't change anything at all
But in both forms, there's still only one timeline
>>69914886
the entire kingsmoot / iron islands plot line was undercooked and adapted poorly. They had to get the fleet to Mereen and Euron on the throne without Victarion or a Kingsmoot that lasted an entire season. Why they felt they had to do that instead of cutting maybe 8 of the 20 scenes featuring Arya getting smacked around and being asked her name IDK.
>>69914886
You can have all those people support you but a dozen people supporting Euron and he is the king?
Bravo D&D.
Every episode worse than the last
Daily reminder that everything in Bran's storyline is now pointless and everything he's done in the show up to last night was filler.
His only reason for existing is to give the audience visions of the past and warg into Dany's dragons.
Hope you didn't have any interest in Bran's storyline, because they made him and everyone involved completely pointless.
>>69914996
>who was Hume the post
>>69914911
My point is that you can't normally start a feedback loop without initial input. With this kind of time travel, you just have to accept that it just can.
>People ITT not understanding the intent of the timetravel
Okay, because the typical /got/ poster has a 60 IQ let me just explain it to you (even though most of you don't need to read this):
>Bran is in the present (let's call this "A")
>Bran WARGS to the past (let's call this "B")
>Bran is watching the events of B play out when whites/others attack A
>Bran isn't sure what's happening but he can tell that something is wrong (out of lack of experience he can't just leave)
>It's already shown that he can somewhat interact with the past in his travels (young Ned)
>He listens to the instruction from Meera to "warg into Hodor" but can't choose/isn't given the option to control which one, so it's sort of implied that he wargs into both simultaneously
>Suddenly Hodor from A and B are linked in the warg
>B Hodor feels the stress, fear and pain of his situation all the while being compelled/controlled to HOLD THE DOOR and he's just a kid
>Basically feels/sees A's pain and his own death
>This is so shocking it breaks his mind
I mean that's just for the people who don't seem to understand the intent. Obviously in terms of the narrative it's there as Bran's lesson that you can't just do whatever you like when you're in the past.
Not trying to debate the "logic" or if Bran can go back and do other shit (like turn the Mad King, mad) but it seems some people just can't understand why/how it happened.
>>69915020
everything is pointless because you will die. hope you haven't been enjoying anything up to this point.
On a sidenote , the best part of the episode were the young actresses boobs in Braavos.
>>69914885
He's not time traveling for fucks sake.
>>69915055
Nah, I can still change my own destiny and have legs to move around.
Bran on the other hand is forever lost in visions and can only put events in motion without actually changing anything.
Checkmate
>>69913802
>Yeah but what happens if Harry just decided he wanted to kill somebody
He can't. The ramifications of time travel in the Harry Potter universe is that there is no freewill, just pre-destined events acting out as they always have and will. Now we know there is also no freewill in GoT universe too.
>>69915106
>goes to a point in time in the past and influences events
>not time-travelling
Do you have a spare chromosome or something?
>>69915053
I guess you could say he Wargs into Present Hodor, but because he is viewing the past, it somehow travels back through oresent Hodors mind to the past with him, or something
>>69915120
>Nah, I can still change my own destiny and have legs to move around.
but you're still shitposting on 4chan.
>>69914665
yes, but not the stress of that overlap, but from hearing Meera's yelling
>>69915120
Except he can warg into another nigga and be him. I think the BloodRaven is some being that jumps from nigga to nigga. That's why he told Bran he was gonna become him.
>>69915053
Hodor is basically Bran's Uncle Ben.
>>69915046
>i am the only remotely philosophically literate poster on all of 4chan
Hume was a compatibilist and therefore a bender on my account.
>>69914714
yeah, that's why I said that you fucked up
>>69915122
But these scenarios always have the problem of the original event.
Take Terminator: The picture of Sarah Connor shows her not pregnant. In the end of the movie the picture is taken with her being pregnant.
John is sending his own dad back into the past and thus creating himself.
In the original time line John Connor was born although his dad wasn't send back into the past. After he was born he sends his dad back into the past and creates himself.
That is why you don't think too hard about time travel and just enjoy the show.
>>69915048
that's actually a good point.
I suppose is befitting to say that the first input is actually behind the fourth wall, being this fiction created by writers.
They're the actual god that made a deterministic universe possible.
Why the fuck Bloodraven and Bran still chilling in the past when they knew the NK hordes are looking for them?
(farts)
>>69915053
Yeah this. Meera calling out in the present leads Bran to accidentally act as a conduit to past Hodor. Wasn't that complicated, I don't know how anyone missed this.
It's fucking dumb, though.
>>69915013
If you paid any attention to the episode instead of sperging out like the edgelord you are you would have heard the man telling euron ' they took our best ships'
It means they only took a handful of ships you nigger not the entire fleet !
FUCK, why do I bother coming to /tv/ I swear you shits are worse than normies.
>>69914886
That was fucking terrible. Their lovely uncle was going after them with around 20 men (I assume whose were good men) and apparently Yara and Theon have an army of thousands. Remind me again, why they are not taking throne by force? Apparently killing kings in not frowned upon on iron islands, so killing Euron would probably end feud without civil war.
>>69912972
"...hold the door"
>>69915784
Because he needed Bran to create hodor
>>69913575
Because the whole concept is flawed. Every story involving time travel to the past is flawed
How can Bran now see the end to the TOJ scene when his timetree just got merked?
>>69914704
>>69914761
>samefagging
Nice intellectual intelligence you've got going there Time Lordimus Virginius *tips my grandfathers fedora in the present*
>>69916320
i don't think he needs the timetree anymore
>>69916320
He can find another one
>Ned definitely whispered something before being decapitated
"Please don't decapitate me."
>>69916429
>triggered
>>69916467
>i-i'd much rather not die, if that's at all possible. thanks.
>>69914438
TO WATCH THEM SHITTY SHOW THAT SUCK ASS
>>69916429
Lol I don't samefag. You autistic bitch boy
>>69916702
What the fuck are you talking about?
>>69916702
Doesn't he look because he saw Arya?
>>69913022
>>69913817
>Anything he changes in the past, is applied in the present before he even found time travelling. So Hodor being retarded for example.
This Idoes what I got from it. I hate it though, it essentially means everything is fatalistic and his time travel ability is essentially useless.
>>69916320
It's not one tree. Any weirwood tree should work
Bran doesn't even time travel. He accesses a tree network that records history and exists outside of normal time flow because magic.
He's yelling at the TV and sometimes the person on TV hears him.
couldn't bran only warg into hodor because he was a vegetable
wylis isn't a vegetable so how did he warg into him
>>69916912
Time travel is a shitty plot device anonSo is reviving dead people, but that ships sailed
>>69917060
>wylis isn't a vegetable so how did he warg into him
That's why he became retarded
>>69916970
so it´s a twitter reference? random guy stalks X and he´s going nuts about getting a message from nowhere? woah thats so deep bro season 6 is about celebrity safe space
>>69913379
Because he doesn't know what he is going to do until he does it.
So lets say bran goes back in time and tries to warg someone. It just doesn't work anymore?
If the argument is "he won't because he didn't" then why didn't he? He could just go back to when the white walkers were made and stop all that shit from happening. So none of this would have happened in the first place. But while we know he doesn't do this, there's no good reason for it. It's not that he "can't" go back in time, it's that he "doesn't". Right? So why doesn't/didn't he?
>>69917350
If he does, then he either fails, is the reason it happened in the first place or causes something else that happened to happen.
*Bran teleports behind you*
*Time stop*
*Unsheaths Ice*
Tch, sorry kid.
>>69917350
We're going to find out, anon! I'm very excitedDABID
ITT: people who can't grasp fixed time
>>69917350
>Asking to be spoonfed basic time travel shit
JUST FUCK OFF JESUS CHRIST
>>69917350
>He could just go back to when the white walkers were made and stop all that shit from happening.
If he could do that, he already would have and it wouldn't have happened. Everything that's happened in the past is already the way it is as a result of his time travel. His time travel is already factored in.
This does suggest that free will doesn't exist or at least that all events are predetermined, but I'm fine with that.
>>69917350
It's implied the Mad King went mad because the Bloordraven thought he could change the past by whispering to the Mad King, which ended up being the reason why he went mad in the first place. If Bran ever does try to change the past, then either he fails for some reason or he does have some influence but it doesn't work out the way he intended (resulting in something that was known to have already happened but at the time wasn't known he was responsible for, such as the example with the Mad King).
>>69917062
Not always family. Sometimes time travel is done great. Such as Back to the Future and Donnie Darko.
>>69917350
It's just lazy storytelling. Everything that happened happened. When you introduce these time loops you just create a situation where events and information can appear from nothing. It's convenient when you've written yourself in a corner and is barely above everything being a dream in terms of deus ex machina.
>>69917537
I find all forms of time travel terrible apart from fixed time because every other form allows literally anything to happen.
>>69917493
Nah time travel is shit.
Yes, time is fixed in the show. But that doesn't mean the plot automatically makes sense you retard. He could have gone back and changed all the bad shit that happened but he didn't. We may know he didn't but that doesn't mean there's a good reason for it.
>>69914068
>>69914101
I'm starting to think that Bran is basically warging into whatever the Old Gods are, and that the Old Gods are basically like the Tralfamadorians in Slaughter House 5. I think that is how Hodor got mind fucked.
>>69917593
Yes, but fixed time line allows literally nothing to be changed as a set rule. It implies free will isn't a thing and that destiny is already foretold. I prefer time travel that is actu ally more like dimension hopping wherein time travel creates separate dimensions instead of separate timeliness. That way the time traveler can always go back to the alpha dimension if shit gets way fucked.
>>69917648
>didn't
couldn't would be more accurate. You really think there won't be an ep where he tries and fails to change something, like Ned's beheading or the WW creation?
>>69914886
Because the Iron Islanders are douchebags, and proud of it.
Ramsey's a fucking psycho, and nobody likes Roose, so that's how he got away with murdering him, plus there's no alternative.
And the Sand Sneks? Show-Doran was a cuck so I guess they could buy off the guards. Trystane literally did nothing wrong, they better pray people blame Cersei.
>>69917648
He could have gone back and changed all the bad shit that happened but he didn't
NO HE CANT, THATS THE FUCKING POINT OF FIXED TIME YOU FUCKING AUTIST KILL YOURSELF
>>69917712
Im a determinist and dont believe free will exists so it works fine for me
>nobody talks about whether Young Hodor knew what was happening and the whole time growing up knew how he was going to die or if Hodor was Willis again in the last few moments of his life.
>>69917822
I was hoping for hodor to start speaking english after he was worged into at the end and relized this was the calling of his entire life, would've been a perfect death scene
>>69917789
>don't believe free will exists
Man that has to suck, but I hope you're right. If that's the case then someone else is responsible for setting me up to do all the things I regret having ever done and the only trick to it now is to acknowledge it was the wrong thing to do.
>>69917822
Fuck. They swapped. Willas lived as a stable boy until out of the blue he was whisked to a snowy nightmare where he had to HOLD THE DOOR and then get wighted.
Hodor, on the other hand, is an immortal simpleton trapped in a stable time loop.
Not sure who has it worse, really.
>>69917822
The reason hodor freaks out at the end is because he knows whats anout to happen, that he will die.
>It's not time travel
>he just affected someone in the past before Brann even existed XD
>but it had to happen because it already did XD
>yfw BloodRaven will now be coaching Bran through events like Bran is the Time Travel's Wife
>>69917944
>greentexting things make them false ecksdee
>>69918078
What if Bran visits the past at the same time that past blood raven visits the past too?
Can he still commynicate with past blood raven?
>>69918088
>missing the point
>"It isn't time traveling!"
>Literally travels back in time
What the fuck is the point of this thread?
Yes, your dumb fucking wind-whispers count as changing the past
>>69918129
Yes. It will be why BR wanted to seek out Bran in the first place.
>>69918129
I see no reason why Bran can't go back to the cave he just left only a few years in the past and finish his "training"
>>69917944
>I don't get fixed timelines
Bran's timeghost exists out of time
>>69918161
>Yes. It will be why BR wanted to seek out Bran in the first place.
And it will also be why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.
>>69912972
>don't save me
Holy shit, this board's collective IQ level is probably even lower than /pol/'s.
>>69917881
The concept of "we dont have free will" is that humans are deterministic machines that will react the same due our sub consciousness. It is still you but you can't directly control it.
No higher power at work, sorry my friend.
>mfw 2deep4u timetravel aspull
>>69912972
He said: "promise me, me"
>>69918320
What about rigorous training of the sub-conscious allowing the conscious mind to be aware of the sub-conscious facilities? If you were aware enough of your sub-conscious and it's desires, would you then be free from your lack of free will by being able to go against one's own deep rooted desires?
>>69918799
>subconscious
>aware
But even ignoring that, the other anon didn't explain it all that well, probably using 'subconscious' more like a metaphor. The basic idea is that there is no thought or impulse that occurs to you which wasn't caused. Whether it was caused by external forces or by your nature ('genes' etc) is unimportant, the point is that it occurred exactly as it occurred because it was caused ('determined') to happen.
The decisions you make, the theory goes, require no further explanation than the external factors and whatever goes into your personal makeup. And since you had no say in either of those, you aren't in any sense a cause of your own actions, you're just their executor.
Before quantum mechanics came along, it was classical old-school determinism, where literally everything all 'joins up' the further back you go in time until you get to the Big Bang or whatever, and that's the primal cause of everything. QM (on most interpretations) introduces randomness, but most people accept that randomness doesn't get you free will, it just gets unpredictability of external factors.
>>69917528
That isn't implied anywhere, that's a fan theory
>>69919086
Even if that is the case that's not true fatalism. If what you're saying is true then we are given a list of options (a finite list, but a list none the less) we can choose from and the randomness variable will determine which we choose from the list. That's still free will, it's just not what I would call "true free will" that only something like Judeo-Christian God can hold.
>>69919311
>If what you're saying is true then we are given a list of options (a finite list, but a list none the less) we can choose from and the randomness variable will determine which we choose from the list.
No, this isn't right. The randomness is just probabilistic or indeterminate events on the quantum level, like the spin or position of a subatomic particle. It doesn't indicate a range of possible options open to you, since you can't access reality on that level and in any case, even if it's randomly determined, it's still true that only one outcome actually happens. So any decision you make is still exactly as though Newtonian mechanics applied.
You're right that it's not fatalism in the sense of predetermination, though.
the thing that people don't seem to get is there is a difference between CHANGING the past and CAUSING the past
can no one just take a moment and be sad... who gives a fuck how it happened? Hodor is fucking gone. HES GONE and this is the only time in this show i ever truly felt choked up like i was going to baw. Hodor is the only true hero in this whole entire show. god damnit hodor. we miss you
ITT everyone either pretending to be retarded or "hurr i was just pretending to be retarded"
>>69919451
But we can in no way have any idea which outcome will be chosen. So that is either randomness or free will. I'm not sure what else you could call it.
>>69920167
>But we can in no way have any idea which outcome will be chosen. So that is either randomness or free will.
Predictability negates free will (on most accounts) but unpredictability doesn't establish it.
>>69920268
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence In other words. But in that case there must be an outside force dictating what will become of unpredictable events to negate free will.
>>69920167
First of all time travel really is never the good answer to adress plot holes, beacuse it leaves insane amount of "what ifs" and "Why not this" questions, its pretty chaotic minefield and should never be steped on! (remmeber terminator endless travels, back to the future "we must go back" etc)
Second Human free will always puts aside determinism, its just imposible out of that simple question "should i go left or right? Lets flip a coin"
>>69912972
>R + L = J
Most likely
>>69914068
HE WARGED INTO PAST HODOR
how do you not fucking get this.
He warged hodor as a kid to affect his actions years from then. He was implanting the plan to hold the door and that is why it scarred him so bad, because it was so far away in the future. IT AINT DIFFICULT, IT SIMPLE.
>>69912972
"Girl power."
>>69920613
What do you mean by "puts aside?"
>>69913022
>>69920442
Well no, no outside force needed, just randomness or a fundamentally probabilistic element to nature.
>>69918320
Then how do you explain our ability to choose to believe or not believe what you just said? We have free will to believe or not believe it.
>>69920939
If the events are random then they are not predetermined. Thinking otherwise is paradoxical. It sounds like you believe in very limited free will, but free will none the less.
>>69920718
I mean if Bran just turned into Neo from Matrix, and he can travel in past and learn from events and basicly be Wikipedia, he who has Bran on his sides wins game of thrones everything else is irelevant, he is simply too powerful to be ignored right now.
>>69921061
I agree. He's basically neo. The problem I'm concerned with is if they gave him this power to only have him do it once and make a sad scenario for Hodor to die in. If they never have him do this again it would be like making Neo the one at the end of Matrix but never have him be that way again. In that case I can't help but ask myself "why not just write it some other way where it doesn't look like you wrote your way out of a corner?"
>>69921061
Seeing Bran's capabilities last episode basically confirms for me that Bran has to die sometime before the end. Probably the sooner the better as well
My problem with this fixed time bullshit us that bran would realize this and attempt to alter it, which he probably will in the show, but it'll be limited
In """reality""" is it not an endless paradox to remember something you know happened and then go back and fuck with it?
>>69914886
Because they're gonna go convince dany that the ironborne are her allies but only if yara gets the throne.
I imagine Euron and the Sons of the harpy vs dany and her merry band of misfits
>>69921132
They can basicly do whatever they like from this point, they opened pandoras box, when you get into time travel and paradox shananigance literaly sky is the limit and it can bite them on the ass, they shouldnt have done that, they should left him just as the spectator of the past not enable him to temper with it, if he can make one Hodor, he can also make thousands, if he tempered with the past once, there is no logic that prevents him to go back again.
>>69920613
>he thinks free will is a thing
>>69921351
If Brandon is smart he will realize it doesn't matter what he does because time is a closed loop and can not be altered. If he does realize that then he won't even bother going back in time for any other purpose than to watch and gather information.
>>69921351
Once you enable time travel, if he ended in the past once, there is no logical explanation why he cant alter his timeline again and again and again, if he exited his time and entered antother he can repeat it as many time as he likes. Ink is dry theory became bullshit when he could turn healthy boy into the hodor, he baasicly tempered with timeline that was way before his own, he done it once he can do it again!
>>69920973
>Then how do you explain our ability to choose to believe or not believe
Actually, quite a few people think we don't have any real ability to choose what we believe even outside of having free will generally.
I mean, a bit of a cheap trick, but: You believe you choose what you believe, right? So change your mind. Change your mind, and agree with me that we can't choose our beliefs. After like a minute or so, you can change back.
Now that is cheap, I'll admit, but it disposes of direct voluntarism. Then there's indirect voluntarism, where you might say "OK, I can't choose my beliefs in the same way that I can choose what to have for lunch, but I can make choices that affect how I think about things. I can decide what books to read, what evidence to look up. I can even decide in a limited way what I will and won't think about. Since these are things that definitely produce changes in our beliefs, I'm choosing in a sense."
This is indirect or second-order voluntarism. The classic example is the theist who literally never listens to even a single argument that there's no god (feel free to substitute someone who was raised atheist and never listens to arguments for if you like).
But I don't think this idea is coherent - I think it breaks down when you examine it closely. If someone buys a lottery ticket and wins, did they 'choose to win'? Of course not; they chose to have a chance of winning. Otherwise, we'd have to say all the people who lost chose to lose. So given that there is no argument that will convince everybody, isn't reading an argument far more like buying a lottery ticket than anything else? And doesn't the theist's very reluctance to even listen suggest that if they did, their beliefs might change against their will?
>>69921018
>If the events are random then they are not predetermined.
Yeah, that's why I was trying to explain to you that determinism and predeterminism aren't the same thing.
>>69912972
Promise me, Bran
>>69914335
best explanation tBh
>>69916142
they stole the fleet before the ironmen found out Euron was chosen
>>69921452
Why?
You're just restating things. If you are aware the things you do don't alter time, why not go out of your way to do something different?
Why wouldn't the time line change and you just aren't aware of it.
Cyclical time travel is the most retarded rendition of time travel because it takes agency away from the people doing it. It's only possible in a lazy storytelling environment where the characters actions are fixed.
And time travel is usually lazy as a whole to begin with
>>69921586
he was asking why bother to steal the boats when she clearly had a large force backing her
>>69921493
>You believe you choose what you believe, right? So change your mind. Change your mind, and agree with me that we can't choose our beliefs.
This only holds true as a cheap trick to disprove volunteerism if in fact it is impossible to change your mind about something about being proven wrong. A man who believes the earth is flat is choosing to believe that notion but can be literally proven wrong. If he chooses to believe that the earth is flat still after being proven wrong he is an idiot, but is still choosing with his free will as to what to believe. There are plenty of people who CHOOSE to disbelieve facts.
If Bran warged into past Hodor (while he was already warging), how was present Hodor being controlled to hold door?
>>69913254
>>69913265
Have obviously never seen back to the future
>>69921660
They probably have a semblance of loyalty to democracy if only valuing the instution and not really caring about the individual
Like if america elected Satan and he started nuking people, I don't think people would care if he was nurdered, but they'd want their democratic institution back
The iron born are just a more retarded and conveniently lazy version of that
>>69921733
Im not that guy but im also a hard determinist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FanhvXO9Pk
here you go anon, its old but its more convincing than anything i can say
>>69921762
Maybe both brans were doing it or something
I buy into the hodor doing it of his own free will, or influenced will or whatever
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojik5tagElU&feature=youtu.be
HODOR RIP
>>69921632
>implying
>implying
>implying
>>69921733
>If he chooses to believe that the earth is flat still after being proven wrong he is an idiot, but is still choosing with his free will as to what to believe. There are plenty of people who CHOOSE to disbelieve facts.
So change your mind for 60 seconds.
This all just sounds like Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. Rufus always goes back to help them, they always pick up the same historical figures, napoleon always accidentally gets abducted, the machine always gets damaged, they always leave the recording, ted always steals his dads keys, they always get the babes, they always ace the history presentation. NO MATTER WHAT THESE EVENTS WILL HAPPEN. You can see this in the conversations between the different bill and teds in that no matter what side of the conversation they are on, the conversation is always the same. Their future selves have already done everything they do and so they must then leave things behind for their past selves so things remain the same.
The reason Rufus is able to go back in time is because a future Rufus already has and made sure the future survives. From what it sounds like a future Bran already has gone back in time, thus the only reason present Bran can go back in time is because the future one already has and everything he does is just to ensure a continuity for later Bran. Everything has already happened and no one has any freewill over what will happen.
>>69921762
Because Inception! They have just implemented Inception movie scenario, because fuck logic and yolo!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc7-HbYvD9I
>>69920655
lol no. Did you even read this thread?
