>Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
>The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that’s become the template. I’m not sure that it’s a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.
>'But if you’re going to write about war, and you just want to include all the cool battles and heroes killing a lot of orcs and things like that and you don’t portray [sexual violence], then there’s something fundamentally dishonest about that.
Reminder that there are adults who unironically prefer LOTR to GOT.
Reminder that this is the man who wrote the Boltons, a family of pale vampire wannabes in all red and black who flay people for kicks while raping their way through the countryside.
>>69367739
This faggot doesn't know what makes a good story and gets bogged down in minutiae. I hate his fucking books.
There are real historians who chronicled real history and I'd rather read a good translation than his attempt at realfantasy.
>>69368232
>This faggot doesn't know what makes a good story
You mean interesting, fleshed-out and believable characters?
Because he's got that downbetter than Tolkien ever did.
>>69368337
upvoted
>>69367739
Reminder that there are adults who unironically believe that historical accuracy in a fictional universe that shares no history with our own is not only necessary, but is somehow more important to a fantasy novel than prose, setting, plot/story, and lore, all of which are areas where Tolkien wrote circles around Martin.
Thread Theme:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAAp_luluo0&index=14&list=LL6pcYqBo9QEUKxXcTR5ybbw
>"I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men, it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless — while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors — like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow — but it would have been just that. Not worth doing."
>"Not worth doing."
Obese edge fag on suicide watch
>>69368566
I've watched this so many times, I don't care how reddit-tier it is since I may be the only person on this board who actually doesn't visit reddit.
Tolkien destroyed Martin btw.
>>69368389
Tolkien wrote shallow characters. Get over it
>>69368598
Sounds like it would have been a good book desu
>>69368598
Based JRRT wrecking people even from the grave.
>>69368598
That sounds a lot more interesting than his trilogy desu my family
>>69368612
Anyone who's not obsessed with hating popular things appreciates ERB. The lyrics are well-researched and pretty clever.
>>69368566
>ERB
euthanize yourself
>>69367739
You're wrong, Devin
>>69368907
yep
>>69368948
right on cue
>>69368693
A Satanic cult of sauron/ morgoth worshippers would be great desu
>>69367739
>>Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
jesus what an autist
>>69368598
>Since we are dealing with Men, it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless
Damn, he just described everything wrong with today's society
>>69369056
Thats because he is describing every society that has ever existed you mong
>>69368761
>>69369112
I'll bite. Who is the shit skin?
>>69369104
U wot m8?seriously, what?[/Spoiler]
>>69369104
The "developed world" lives in an era of wealth, prosperity, opulence and peace unprecedented in human history.
That's why obesity is becoming an epidemic everywhere, birth rates are crashing and suicide rates are skyrocketing. Human beings don't seem to be built to survive comfort.
>>69368232
>implying real historians don't get bogged down in minutiae
If a historian ever presents a story and it sounds simple then they're a retard and you are a retard for liking their work
>>69368598
>Since we are dealing with men
Tolkien was an SJW
Called it
>>69369135
have some anime
ASOIAF fags always like to talk about how the story in LOTR is too generic or how it's predictable or whatever, but it's WRITTEN better than anything that fatass hack has ever written.
Tolkien has prose that GRRM couldn't dream of competing with. The worldbuilding is much better and it's better at immersing the reader in the surroundings.
ASOIAF is literally gimmick: the book. It's got the twists and the morally gray characters and the "realism" but the writing itself is shit-tier.
Tolkien is a better writer, deal with it. Writers back in the day wrote books that were practically poetry. GRRM just gives a bland description of what is happening.
>>69369190
I have no idea what that has to do with what I just posted. He is describing every society ever including his made up medieval society
>>69369010
>asking perfectly sensible questions is autism
you were really upset when Tom Bombadil didn't make it into the movie trilogy, weren't you?
>>69368907
I dislike it because every battle has the exact same beat and structure, they have no musical creativity.
>>69368405
>Tolkien
>prose
>>69368982
He tossed that idea a nod in the Fall of Numenor. Sauron had Ar-Pharazon convinced that Morgoth worship would give him dominion over any foe, and ran a cult devoted to Morgoth up until the island was drowned.
>>69369370
>writers back in the day
Oh boy we have a "back in my day' fag over here.
>>69369367
Why did I even bother reading that trash?
>>69369419
If you think those are perfectly sensible questions in the the context of LOTR you're about as clueless as this fat fuck is
>>69368650
You've never read his work though. Or think that
"Here's this man who helps orphans BUT HE'S ALSO A RAPIST!! LOOK HOW GRAY UHH" is good writing.
>>69369488
whatever faggot it's one of the few things that are true in regards to that cliche
>It's a GoTplebs get triggered episode
>>69369370
The beauty in which Tolkien explains sceneries and stuff in general is just higher than what GRRM is capable of.
>>69369370
>Writers back in the day wrote books that were practically poetry.
nice meme. Tell me about how music, movies, and women were all better than too. Remind us that even the windows were cleaner and little johnny didnt develop cancer from smoking yet
>>69369547
Nope, just the writing.
>>69369499
I have read LoTR, the Hobbit, and the Silimarilion. His characters are shallow, his plot is obvious. He isnt telling a story so much as a building a mythos. If you like that fine, more power to you. I do not enjoy that.
Wow it sure is hard being an adult isnt it.
Let's be honest here, GRRM is a talentless hack and anyone who disagrees is a certified faggot and a moron
Asoiaffags are the worst
>>69369370
ASOIAF readers themselves do not want morally gray characters. They are all literally jerking over "muh jun targaryen will become the gratest knigh and daenarys will be his queen and tyrion will ride a dragon and sace the day!"
>>69369370
Actually GRRMs prose is widely considered among the best while that is literally Tolkiens only weak point.
You don't know what you're taking about.
>>69369597
Whelp. Can't do anything about shit opinions other than disagree.
>>69367739
this fat cunt should die already.
You tell me who knows more about war: Tolkien who fought at the Battle of the Somme or GRRM who fought at the Battle of the Sizzler?
>>69369626
>GRRMs prose is widely considered among the best
>>69367739
If he'd said that between the 3rd and 4th asoiaf books it might carry some weight but after ffc and adwd it just makes him look like a bitter jelly old hack
>>69367739
How do i upvote this post?
>>69369635
I am sorry you were born if a sense of superiority despite accomplishing nothing in life. Hopefully it will tide you over until you inevitably hang yourself.
>>69369370
I don't think anyone would disagree that Tolkien had better prose, he was a trained linguist and had a doctorate in English
GRRM does better characters imo and though Tolkien is a master worldbuilder I prefer the world GRRM created to Tolkien's because I find it more relatable and a better reflection of our own.
>>69369626
>Actually GRRMs prose is widely considered among the best
kek that's funny bro
>>69367739
I agree with his position but his implementation is god awful trash
>>69369597
Agree with this, I really enjoy Tolkien but it's more for the fantasy of his world, the writing and depth of the character's are rather poor.
It's not surprising though, being an author that makes book's for children it would be silly to include more complex personalities than the basic 'good and evil'.
>>69369681
>I don't think anyone would disagree that Tolkien had better prose, he was a trained linguist and had a doctorate in English
apparently this retard would
>>69369626
> I find it more relatable and a better reflection of our own.
I read fantasy to escape reality, not to be constantly pulled back into our shitty world with reminders of how shitty people are.
>>69369690
"include more complex personalities than the basic 'good and evil'"
But this is not the case with Tolkien's work. I feel like most of you have read his work several years ago, and now believe the memes. Neither his characters or his mythos is directly "evil and good"
>>69369645
“We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Indeed only by myth-making, only by becoming 'sub-creator' and inventing stories, can Man aspire to the state of perfection that he knew before the Fall. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien
>>69369498
There's nothing wrong with any of those questions. Tolkien glossed over real-world effects or paid very little attention to them.
What do you think happened to the inflation rates in Laketown after Smaug's death? I hope the average fisherman likes those fish - it's all he'll be eating for a long time. If you have an answer, thenyou've thought more about it than Tolkien ever did.
>>69367739
This is coming from the guy whose idea of an ominous threat is something as generic as zombies.
Also this guy clearly has a middle school understanding of sexual violence in the middle ages. It was not as common as people think and neither was war in general.
He also has a really immature and naive philosophy on how family works because his characters value it way too fucking much for it to be a realistic portrayal of what a world like this would be.
Also Tolkein does go into some specifics of what Aragorn does after becoming King but i cant really fault GRRM for not researching that
What i hate the most about this guy though is how blisfully unware he is of how much he stole from tolkein
Jon Snow is literally a carbon fucking copy of Aragorn and the white walkers are a far more immature insert for orcs.
I get it. He wanted to make a gritty realistic period drama in a fantasy world but he has no fucking clue about anything of the time period his work is based on. Of course this could simply be written off if he admitted his shit was as unrealistic as Tolkein but GRRM is a fat fucking snob too stupid to recognize his own failure.
>>69369681
> I find it more relatable and a better reflection of our own.
The world Martin created doesn't even reflect actual medieval times. You're fucking kidding yourself if you find it realistic in any regard beyond I guess sex happening.
>>69367739
"To be caught in youth by 1914 was no less hideous an experience than in 1939 . . . by 1918 all but one of my close friends were dead."
Of the two writers, one of them knows shit about war. The other writes descriptively about a character having a bout of diarrhea.
>>69369479
>I am retarded
the post
>>69367739
>Reminder that there are adults who unironically prefer LOTR to GOT.
I am one of them
>>69369760
Provide some example because I cant honestly think of many. The only flawed characters were Boromir and Frodo. They did a great deal of internal struggle. Boromir ends up dead and Frodo has his entire personality raped and never recovers.
>>69369769
That's all fine and dandy. But GURM glosses over those things as well. For all his big talk (marketing) about portraying logistics, strategy and economy he really doesn't focus on it at all.
>>69368337
MODS MODS MODS
>>69369764
*Tips collection bowl*
>>69369597
I wouldnt say shallow. Shallow implies he tried to go deeper and couldnt, whereas in Tolkiens case the story never really calls for it.
You have to remember that Tolkien wrote these stories in a way that would make it more comparable to ancient epics like Beowulf or The Illiad. GRRM wrote his stories to be more comparable to days of our lives and guiding light but with swords and diarrhea instead of substance.
>>69369842
Smeagol, bro.
>>69369801
+You have no cock!!!!!1111 xDDDD
+*BRAAAAAAAAP*!!!! Ahahaha baka A FART!!! X---D
+Everyone plotting against everyone, no one can trust anyone, not even your own family, because 99% of the people are sociopaths
>>69369770
Pretty much any lone wolf char with a hidden past related to royalty is a carbon copy of Aragon at this stage and most people don't even realise it.
>>69367739
it's FANTASY. It's not supposed to model real life you fucking fat piece of shit!
I can't get into game of thrones. oh look, it's fantasy, but lets make it realiiiiiisticccc, and add lots of SEX and DRAMA
fuck off.
>>69369319
Jesus Christ you dumb son of a bitch. If I want minutiae and realism I'll read history.
If I read a fantasy story I want something fantastic.
Your low level of reading comprehension and intelligence seems about right for a george martin fan.
>>69369731
>I read fantasy to escape reality, not to be constantly pulled back into our shitty world with reminders of how shitty people are.
Sure. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm just saying which I personally prefer. I find the shittiness of ASOIAF's makes it a lot more worthwhile when the good guys DO triumph.
>You're fucking kidding yourself if you find it realistic in any regard beyond I guess sex happening.
I don't mean it's a literal history lesson, retard.
>>69369884
>>69369831
Anybody with taste is
>>69369917
Oh shit. I always forget he is a character and more consider him a plot device.
>>69369899
I never said Tolkien was bad or even intended to imply that and I straight up said he was building a mythology more than a singular story.
>>69369945
But most of the shittiness that happens to the protagonists makes no fucking sense, because it's all from really outlandish/retarded behaviour
>>69369954
>if I just presuppose God is real than God makes perfect sense!
>>69369986
>enjoying genre fiction
>having ANY taste
>>69368982
If you're interested, "The Fall of Numenor" is basically Tolkein's attempt at doing this, only before the events of LOTR instead of after it.
>>69369367
>le "redpilled" weebshit
kill yourself
>>69368033
A peaceful land, a quiet people
>>69369842
Denathor, Faramir, Turin, Hurin, Pretty much every elf in the Silmarilion for starters.
Sauron, Melkor and the orcs are also debatable. In chapters where you get close to the orcs (Merry & Pippin and Sam & Frodo in mordor) their society is displayed as very human. Especially the chapter where the two orcs lose Sam and Frodo and banter about it made them feel very much human.
>>69369994
Are you implying that people dont do outlandish/retarded things all the time?
>>69370016
>all these fags who have to been to /lit/ once and spout this genre fiction shit without knowing what it even means
Please lurk more
>>69369899
Falconcrest with Dragons, thank you for this!
>>69370016
/lit/ pls
>>69369370
Anyone who knows anything about literature knows that Tolkien had average to mediocre prose. Go claim he's a great stylist over on /lit/, but first make sure you have some band-aids for your ass.
Martin is not a stylist either. He has serviceable prose, with the occasional silver passage.
>people actually think ASOIAF is some sort of complex epic with autistic attention to detail
Nigga, try reading Romance of the Three Kingdoms, that shit'll blow your balls off.
>>69370015
You have to remember that he lived in a very different time from us
>>69369994
examples?
and a great deal many of these "retarded" decisions are deliberate and its made clear that these are the characters' tragic flaw
>>69367739
>By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them?
This is clearly an allegory for modern day niggers, correct? If we killed them all crime rates would drastically decrease without question, but it would be "morally incorrect" to do so.
>>69370052
They do, but not to the scale that the characters in the books seem to do. Take Ned for example, his whole 'TRUTH TRUTH TRUTH' attitude is so laughable because of the setting. Same with Robb's decision to marry some random girl. Same with Jon and Dany's decisions after the 3rd book.
>>69370047
>Denathor
By the time of the books he is supposed to be seen as out and out bad. Tragic but bad.
>Faramir
I dont remember him doing anything tolkien would consider bad
>elves in the Silmarilion
I honestly dont remember here its been a while
>Sauren ect
Gonna need a better argument for this than that some of them had aspects of their personality that was relatable.
>>69368033
Reminder that there were people in history that flayed people. Reminder that many units in the US military feature emblems with flayed human heads on them.
How powerful is Tom Bombadil ?
The original god created him ? How powerful is him compared to the gods and semi-gods ?
>>69370088
/lit/ is retarded. /lit/ like pretty much every other board has considerably less understanding of the topic it was created to discuss than it believes itself to have. Add in that good ol' 4chan contrarian mentality and it's completely useless.
>>69370107
Which is why I mocking the poster and not the author. I respect the author and his opinion, not so much people that quote mine him.
>>69370088
>with the occasional silver passage.
And they are all about food
>>69370016
>/lit/
>taste
>>69370117
haha what a unique and well-founded observation
>>69370124
My roommate is a christfag that literally cannot lie about anything. He lies in perpetually fear of lying. People with these personalities really do exist mate.
>>69370157
/lit/ is to literature what /v/ is to board games. Go ahead and ask them about any book. They dont like it
>>69367739
I have a feeling this guy is just a pervert
>>69370197
oh god sleep deprived.
Lives. Video games.
>>69368033
But anon, the are numerous hostorical figures who were just as cruel as the boltons. And the whole vampire retardom is just your retardom speaking
>>69369994
Yeah in the show maybe.
But the books don't really do kills for shock value, everything is properly set up.
I don't really care either way, i love both. One is a mythos, the other a drama. It boils down to taste anyway, comparing them is bullshit
>>69370195
Haha, sjw for lyfe rite? LMOA KEK. THEY WON't hurt me if I beg for their cock. :) :) :)
Can someone explain what is so great about Tolkein's prose?
Most authors could do what he does, but that extra description space they devote to other things. He doesn't do anything at all difficult with his sentence structure
>>69370220
We know what you meant. Go take a benadryl and get some sleep
>>69369626
>>69370016
Don't you have a coke bottle to piss in , /lit/?
>>69369921
Ironic shitposting is still shitposting.
>>69370124
Ned Stark is honorable and his honor gets him killed because he's too good of a person for the shit world he lives in.
Robb deflowered a noble girl and thought the honorable thing was to marry her. It's an interesting quandary because he's caught between two "honorable" acts, taking responsibility for the girl he fucked or honoring his oath?
These actions are 100% justified by the characterization.
>>69370220
I dunno, seems /v/ would hate most board games as well, given they've probably only played the really shitty ones that somehow became a cultural mainstay like Monopoly or Life.
>>69369769
>tolkien glossed over real-world effects
can't blame him. Guy lost all his friends, got lice and trench fever, and endured probably the worst that humans ever have. I'd write escapism fantasy stories too.
>>69370110
Ned - Despite being born into nobility and having spent his entire life being a leader of some sort he has absolutely no political sense. This isn't a 'tragic character flaw', it's just bad writing in general.
Robb - Same as Ned, spends half the books talking about 'duty', seems to understand his situation, proceeds to marry some random girl. That's not realistic or a character flaw, that's just plain stupidity.
Dany - Retarded decisions all throughout, but at least she has the excuse of not actually understanding the situation properly and never having been trained to do half of the things she's meant to do. So fine, self destruction due to hubris, that can be a character flaw if you really want to feel like it.
There are others, but it's been years since I last read the books and the TV show has its own problems. Anyway, point is that most of these things aren't particularly realistic or complex if you think about it which is what people keep claiming the characters are.
>>69370279
But then how will I talk to people I will never meet about topics that are entirely unimportant to my life. And share pinions they neither care about nor respect
>>69370237
>But anon, the are numerous hostorical figures who were just as cruel as the boltons
>But anon, there are numerous historical figures that later became caricatures due to domestic or foreign propaganda*
>>69370299
>Monopoly
>shitty
>>69369530
>said the triggered tolkienfag responding in a b8 thread
>>69370268
He has a true mastery of the english language. Honestly Tolkien works are in a way comparable to shakespeare in how influential they are in terms of changing the study of english writing.
But you're right, prose wise there are many many authors who do it better, but if you're trying to say GRRM is among them you could not be farther from the truth.
Even if you dont find Tolkien exceptional in prose, you can still at least admit that GRRM is childish at best and flat out unreadable at worst.
>>69370254
what
>>69370317
I just think you don't understand the characters m8. Just because the characters aren't super insightful wise badasses like you doesn't mean they're poorly written
>>69370298
There's a difference between honorable and lacking any sort of political sense. Ned lacks any political sense for someone who was supposedly brought up in such an environment.
Yeah, Robb just randomly slipped and fell dick first into a noble girl. The whole situation was stupid as fuck.
This whole 'they were honorable' in an 'Honorable' world is a really dull explanation for what basically amounts to bad writing to force the plot to move along.
>>69369370
tolkien's prose isn't great lol
What's the point of trying to imitate historical realism when actual history does it infinitely better, nothing GRRM writes can ever come even close
What you get is basically just shittier than actual history with light fantasy elements
>>69370339
It was literally designed to be shitty.
>>69370339
Not him, but Monopoly is objectively a bad game
>>69370363
The characters aren't hard to get m8, I'm just not making excuses for bad writing and a piss poor excuse of a 'realistic' fantasy.
>>69369363
It was Men, as in humans, not men, as in gender/sex. Go shitpost somewhere else.
>>69370154
He's like a stoned god. Could probably do anything, just too high to care or perform.
All seriousness, it's kind of implied he had great power, but he doesn't show it. I think all you can say for sure is that nothing had power OVER him. That was his strength.
>>69370434
why bother replying to an obvious joke
>>69370434
>doesnt know what a joke is
>>69370117
Tolkien didnt think highly of racists so no.
>>69370401
actual medieval myth and legend does what Martin does but better
seriously go read Le Morte D'Arthur, Thomas Mallory was a real life rogue and villain and wrote better more nuanced and realistic characters than this fat fuck has
>>69370352
Are you fucking kidding me? READ A FUCKING BOOK.
Tolkien:
>Days passed and The Day drew nearer. An odd-looking waggon laden with odd-looking packages rolled into Hobbiton one evening and toiled up the Hill to Bag End. The startled hobbits peered out of lamplit doors to gape at it. It was driven by outlandish folk, singing strange songs: dwarves with long beards and deep hoods. A few of them remained at Bag End. At the end of the second week in September a cart came in through Bywater from the direction of the Brandywine Bridge in broad daylight. An old man was driving it all alone. He wore a tall pointed blue hat, a long grey cloak, and a silver scarf. He had a long white beard and bushy eyebrows that stuck out beyond the brim of his hat. Small hobbit-children ran after the cart all through Hobbiton and right up the hill.
Nabokov, an actual competent prose stylist:
>I was not able, alas, to hold my breakfast, but dismissed that physicality as a trivial contretemps, wiped my mouth with a gossamer handkerchief produced from my sleeve, and, with a blue block of ice for heart, a pill on my tongue and solid death in my hip pocket, I stepped neatly into a telephone booth in Coalmont (Ah-ah-ah, said its little door) and rang up the only Schiller–Paul, Furniture–to be found in the battered book. Hoarse Paul told me he did know a Richard, the son of a cousin of his, and his address was, let me see, 10 Killer Street (I am not going very far for my pseudonyms). Ah-ah-ah, said the little door.
At 10 Killer Street, a tenement house, I interviewed a number of dejected old people and two long-haired strawberry-blond incredibly grubby nymphets (rather abstractly, just for the heck of it, the ancient beast in me was casting about for some lightly clad child I might hold against me for a minute, after the killing was over and nothing mattered any more, and everything was allowed). Yes, Dick Skiller had lived there, but had moved when he married.
>>69370421
It's not bad writing though. You're saying characters not acting the way you think they should means it's bad.
>>69370402
>>69370403
Loser hivemind. Monopoly is designed to give the best deal maker the win. You could never MAGA.
>>69367739
>But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.
Except it is.
They both have problems as actual storytellers.
Tolkien's writing was tedious and bloviating because for all his genius at creating and entire world, writing a story in it was literally an afterthought.
George is kinda the same, except he also repeats himself like a pothead in a cave. He also has the issue of maintaining story threads around characters who have literally no relevance to the overarching plot. Like how we had to sit through Brienne looking for Sansa when it's known to the audience that she is in a completely different place; that's not narrative irony, that's called wasting my fucking time.
>>69370317
>Ned
Retard, do you even know what "bad writing" means? Ned hasn't spend his whole life "being a leader", he led a rebellion as a military general, but was never a leader. Then he ran back to Winterfell where the politics are a lot simpler than those at King's Landing. Also, Ned was never a political genius, he relied on his honorable personality which in turn got him loyalty.
>Robb
Robb is very similiar to Ned. What do you mean by "duty"? He was a 16 year old boy that fell in love with a girl. So a teenage kid can't make rash decisions?
>Dany
So why you pointed that out?
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You can blame George R.R Martin for being fat, for being lazy, for killing your favorite character, but you can't blame him for not having complex characters and story. That's absoltuely ridiculous, and all it does is paint you as some LOTR tryhard.
>>69370401
Because if you want to do actual history you have to tell about what happened. If you make your own universe you can tell the story you want to tell.
Also actual history is controversal and many groups disagree on what happened a lot of the time
>>69370501
I'm saying that trying to make a particular setting and failing to do so properly makes it bad writing. You can't claim it's a 'realistic gritty fantasy' and have the plot move along because apparently all the characters were born with an extra chromosome, that's just bad writing.
>>69367739
All you have to do is read a page of each to see which was written by an artist and which was written by a fat hack. Here are two completely random passages.
>>69370493
Not that i disagree with you, but that doesn't say anything. You could just as well be taking excerpts that suit your argument. As /lit/ does often.
>>69369547
>Tell me about how music, movies, and women were all better than too.
They were, though.
>>69370465
>Tolkein
GRRM understands that the blacks won't work in modern society
>>69370518
>40 pages in and still in the fucking Shire
I love Tolkien but he seemed more interested in BEING in his world than telling a story in it
>>69370522
Saying GoT has bad writing clearly means that I'm claiming LoTR amazing writing. They cannot be independent arguments at all. I can see why you'd consider GoT characters to be complex character studies now.
>>69370522
>but you can't blame him for not having complex characters and story
Most of his cast are laughably one-dimensional psychopaths and he either justifies all their erratic actions that way or by claiming 'BUT IT HAPPENED IN HISTOWY!'
There's nothing WRONG with a "good vs evil" story, it's just different and different people like different things.
I think GRRM has a point, at least, that authors were just emulating Tolkien for decades and there was a sense of stagnation; to be fair, LOTR has quite a big shadow cast over the fantasy genre.
ASOIAF was refreshing, there was little else out there that not only had the promise of scope but also the more realistic approach. But I don't think that realism makes it necessarily BETTER than LOTR.
>>69367739
More important question is:. Did Aragon wore pants?
>>69370582
GRRM is a massive SJW though. Every woman he has ever married has been a massive feminist.
>>69370582
GRRM doesnt think highly of racists either so no.
Citation: he advocates for Syrian refugees to be let into the US
>>69369463
Nigga they don't make the tracks.
You find cruelty in daily black violence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEZHj7R6BrM
Let alone war time. I've seen multiple people lit on fire here on 4chan. Whether it's ISIS or necklacing in South Africa. Whether it's throwing acid on a womans face or not. Humans are capable of extreme cruelty and GRRM writing about it is a good thing. Liberals need to see what extreme cruelty looks like, so that they know not to empathize too much with the most dangerous of criminals. I still don't know why we don't have the death penalty anymore when you see the man responsible for doing shit like this. What causes a person to beat the living shit out of a 78 year old?
minutiae
min-oo-sha
or
min-u-te-ah
>>69370493
But Tolkien is actually attempting to convey a setting and narrative and not some sort of insipid, overwrought stylization.
>>69370555
>I'm saying that trying to make a particular setting and failing to do so properly makes it bad writing.
Ned comes from the North, where people don't bullshit and are relatively straightforward and honor comes before ambition. He gets fucked when he has to deal with the self-serving assholes in King's Landing because he's not good at that game. Why is that bad writing? If anything, it would be poor writing for everyone to be a master manipulator.
Robb's mistake makes as much sense based on his characterization He deflowered a noble girl and believe it was his responsibility to do the honorable thing to marry her. The conflict between two "honorable" vows is a reoccuring theme in the series, you nitwit.
>>69370649
No one cares. Just go to /pol/ already. They will atleast post bait for you.
>"I haven't read Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales"
It shows.
You guys realize that in Tolkien's world there are actual fucking gods and immortal elves who live in a land where no one dies?
That's nothing like Game of Thrones.
>>69370117
Yes, orcs are niggers. Dwarves are Jews. Humans are humans. And Elves are the Finnish people or some shit like that.
>>69370157
They have much better taste than /tv/, the memiest, lowest-common-denominator board.
>>69370591
Am I wrong, mate? Tell me about Aragorn, Sauron and Frodo? How complex are they? And please, don't pretend not to be a LOTR meme fan since we both know you are one.
>>69370597
Most? So Ramsay and Joffrey count as "most" now? Kay. And even they have a reason to be like that.
Ffs, go read on some serial killers, and Ramsay will pale in comparison to some of them.
I'm not talking about show Ramsayfag, that doesn't count, I'm talking about the book Ramsay.
>>69370493
Im not going to attempt to argue that Nabokov's prose is worse than Tolkiens. My point was that GRRM is significantly worse
>>69370599
>there was little else out there that not only had the promise of scope but also the more realistic approach
Fuck you, yes there was
>>69370649
Jesus Christ you're just as bad as the fucking SJWs on Tumblr where evverything has to be about your fucking political agenda
go back to /pol/ we're here to discuss art not politics
>>69370574
Both passages are totally average, lol.
>>69370697
Humans=humans
dwarves=manwe's creations
elves=chosen of the valar
orcs=servants of morgoth
>>69370493
Self-Importance: The Post
>>69370599
> it's just different and different people like different things.
But if they admit that then they cant shitpost at each other, tell eachother they have bad taste, and instruct each other to commit suicide. At that point we arent even posting on 4chan
>>69370776
So finns = God's chosen people?
Sounds about right
>>69368598
Based Tolkein
He knew what kind of story he was writing, silly GRRM
>>69370662
But see, that's a load of bullshit, you can't just characterize the whole north as 'they have no political intrigue'. Yes they fucking do, they have the Boltons up there, they have the fucking Krastarks. Ned supposedly having lived in this little bubble for 40 something years and then going to court is bad writing.
Robb's mistake makes no sense, someone so duty bound would not be deflowering the fucking noble girl to begin with. What he basically did was think with his dick while the world was burning around him, if you find that overly realistic then feel free to continue doing so.
>>69370338
So what you're saying is that in history, no human has ever flayed the skin from another human, and that any evidence to the contrary is a conspiracy? Even relatively modern figures like Nat Turner?
>>69370746
That's because they're average passages in the books, and neither is claiming to be James Joyce. I know which one I'd rather read 1000 pages of, though.
>>69370808
No, your opinion is dumb and you should stop having it.
>>69368033
The Boltons are just the Russian mafia in a fantasy setting.
>>69370819
>But see, that's a load of bullshit, you can't just characterize the whole north as 'they have no political intrigue'. Yes they fucking do, they have the Boltons up there, they have the fucking Krastarks. Ned supposedly having lived in this little bubble for 40 something years and then going to court is bad writing.
What the fuck ever dude, we're clearly at an impasse because you think a Lawful Good character isn't edgy enough while simultaneously bitching that the setting is too edgy.
>someone so duty bound would not be deflowering the fucking noble girl to begin with.
when he was high on milk of the poppy and was in distress after he thought his two younger brothers got murdered, yeah, he might not be making the most rational judgments
>GRRM is better because he is realistic
Really? It's very obvious that GRRM supplements fantasy to larger than life characters, to the point where pretty much all his characters are caricatures of a personality type.
And there's nothing wrong with this. This is how books work, this is how good characters are written. No one want's to read about real, boring humans. Most ASOIAF fans also buy into theories like R+=J and etc which proves my point. They want a hero, they want something they can root for.
But stop lying to yourself ASOIAF fags. Y
>>69370799
More like Taste: The Post
>>69370721
>being this defensive
Christ man, you're allowed to like shit things, no one's going to do anything to you
>>69370575
>>69370656
>>69370733
I urge you three insolent fucks and anyone else to go read Lord of the Rings. Download it. Lay your eyes on the words.
IT. IS. A. SHIT. BOOK.
IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN SHIT.
THE ONLY REASON IT HAS ANY LITERARY MERIT WHATSOEVER IS IN ITS APPROACH TO THE NARRATIVE AS MYTH INSTEAD OF STORY. IT IS THE BvS OF BOOKS.
>tfw we'll never get a good Dune TV series
I just want to see the rise of Paul and Leto II turning into a sandworm
>>69370902
mad kek
>>69367739
That your shit to /lit/
Say what you like about the stylistic worth of Tolkien's Myth against Dragons Vs. Zombies, it's really just a matter of taste.
But at least Tolkien finished his story before dying.
>>69370902
I've read it tho.
>>69370902
angry young man: the post
>>69370875
You can't have a fucking 'lawful good' character and claim it's set in a fucking 'realistic fantasy'. I'm not complaining about the character being edgy, I'm saying that the characters are not complex because they jokes and GRRM can't move the plot along without having them act like retards.
>>69370875
>Lawful Good
>unironically using alignments
Kill yourself
>>69370819
>Robb's mistake makes no sense, someone so duty bound would not be deflowering the fucking noble girl
A 16 year old thinking with his dick.
Shocker.
>>69369626
>Actually GRRMs prose is widely considered among the best
Is this Reddit?
>>69369770
>He also has a really immature and naive philosophy on how family works
I should have known better than to argue with a family expert
>>69370902
>muh LOTR
>muh Tolkien
>muh contrarian opinion
>muh coolness
These LOTR-fags are getting extremely annoying.
Kys, please.
>>69370298
>Robb deflowered a noble girl and thought the honorable thing was to marry her.
>I accidently this pretty girl, so now i need to marry her
>Sowy about our arranged marriage deal:(
Freys did nothing wrong.
>muh realism
didn't Tolkien write the LOTR books for his grandkids?
>>69370949
My condolences.
>>69370936
Try communicating in a human language next time
>>69370952
It's not anger, it's pity. It's the same as hearing someone you love express an appreciation for crystal meth.
>>69370956
>You can't have a fucking 'lawful good' character and claim it's set in a fucking 'realistic fantasy'.
THE POINT IS THAT HE IS HONORABLE AND GETS HIMSELF KILLED BECAUSE OF IT
YOU MIGHT HAVE AN ARGUMENT IF NED GOT OFF SCOT FREE FOR BEING HONORABLE, BUT NO, THE POINT IS THAT HE TRIES TO DO THE HONORABLE THING AND DIES FOR IT BECAUSE THAT'S THE WORLD HE LIVES IN
god damn, what the fuck do you even want? You really think the story would have been better served if Ned just bent the knee to Joff?
>>69370902
but BvS is a masterpiece anon
I love how this is in /tv
The man wrote the hobbit, a book for his kids which may be one of the best books of the last century......for his kids
nuf said
>>69370877
cont.
Martin's characters are not black and white usually, they are conflicted. Which Tolkien does pretty much with all of his characters as well.
Robb - Conflict between honor and honor
Ned - Conflict between honor and acting unhonorably to achieve something that he wants
Daenarys - Conflict between idealism and realism
Jon - Conflict between duty and family
and so on. But most of Tolkien's characters have this also, so i have no idea what the deal is here.
>>69370970
>A 16 year old leading men to their death, with thousands more counting on him
>Whose family is being held hostage
>Who is basically a character wrapped in duty
>Falls dick first into the very first vagina he sees
>>69367739
"The more she drank, the more she shat and the more she shat the more she drank"
>>69371029
>My condolences.
So you've never read it then?
>>69371019
Eh. Nothing wrong would be leaving his army/service after he dishonored them.
They murdered him and his family.
>>69371032
Confirmed to browse /r/books
>>69368598
How can a single man be so BASED bros?
>>69367739
>war for the fate of humanity
That's what the fucking Night King invasion is. Sure humanity isn't unified but it's still evil ice elves with and undead army who plan to genocide humanity and use our babies for more elves.
>>69371043
Again, you're completely ignoring the emotional and physical pain he was in at the time
and, you know, that this is explicitly framed as to have been a mistake but you're just going to disregard that because you think a good story is characters acting rationally in self-interest all the time
>>69371032
And before that, 3 working languages.
And he finished before dying.
>>69371030
That's what is retarded writing you fuck tard, because it doesn't actually work in the setting and the plot only moves along because apparently the character in question has spent 40 years being a retard without anyone doing anything about it
>>69371064
I read it. Then I grew up.
>>69371043
How do you not see how that would happen?
Sexually repressed kid in position of power jumps at the chance to get laid?
>>69370583
>5 books and still in Essos
>>69371082
Ikr. He hates fascists, racists, and war.
>>69371109
Must have been a pretty enlightening book then.
![1b6[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/qvIKMsQ.png "1b6[1].png")
>Reminder that LOTR fans are defending a book meant for children.
Fucking KEK
>>69371104
>40 years being a retard without anyone doing anything about it
well yeah, being the kings best bro and generally unwilling to be underhanded, as well as having little ambition, tends to buy you goodwill from those who would harm you
>>69371061
that passage is actually a good example of why Martin is a quite good writer.
god you guys cant read
>>69371029
>it's pity
Proclaiming something is shit in all caps is obviously anger. Regardless, if you set your standards to only accept the greatest of prose writers as good, then obviously something a bit more accessible won't be your thing. I think it's ridiculous to dismiss the literary merit of Tolkien's characterization and building of languages by any reasonable standard.
>>69369626
>>69370902
>It is the BvS of books
Here's your (you)
>>69371114
Because sexually repressed kid was forced to grow the fuck up and knew there are consequences to his actions.
>>69371232
Not the other guy but holy shit are you being dense here.
>>69370649
She was racist so it's justified,
>>69371232
>why isn't everyone in this setting an entirely rational and logical master manipulator at all times? SHIT WRITING!!!!
please, just stop
>>69371174
>Reminder that GRRM fans are hating a book meant for children.
Fucking KEK
>>69371182
What emotion was he intending me to feel in that line? I chuckled because it was silly sounding. Somehow I don't think that is what he was intending.
>>69370493
Nabokov is actually overrated and pompous, the guy was quite possibly insane (he talked shit about Dostoiesky being a fucking hack himself, which is like fucking Coehlo talking shit about Yates or some shit)
>>69371232
None of which changes that he is 16, on drugs, and bowing under the weight of responsibilities far beyond him. People make mistakes. This was one. It was in character though. Dude is so wrapped up in duty that he needs the booty.
>>69371263
There's a world of difference between being a master manipulator and actually having competent characters if you're going to insist on calling your fantasy realistic in any way or form. In fact master manipulators would be equally retarded in such settings as well i.e. Baelish. If you retards actually want decent realistic characters then go read Hobb's Assassin trilogy.
It's not really fair to compare them because Tolkien was pioneer and GRRM is just expanding on that. Tolkien stories/characters are simplistic but that's ok because he did it well.
>>69371278
The people that are startign this shit usually come from Tolkien's cringe fanbase
>The three men were erect. The sight of their arousal was arousing.
HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH THIS
>>69370902
>IT IS THE BvS OF BOOKS.
Come on now, it's good but not that good
Reminder that you can love both LotR and ASoIaF you absolute madmen
>>69371358
Hard to get away with this when this thread was started by a GURMfag though isn't it?
>>69367739
Like that fat submissive bastard knows what the fuck "war" is about....
>>69371340
You are just continuously saying that characters acting in ways you wouldn't is poor writing, which shows you have autism. The quality of a character isn't measure by their competence, especially when the characterization gives them reasons as to why they behave that way
but please, even as everyone else in the thread calls you out for your retardation, please continue to pretend you're the intellectual superior here.
>>69371381
NO WHICHEVER ONE I READ FIRST IS THE BETTER ONE
>>69371291
It's not silly sounding, the whole thing is a good hypotactic period (which is better than what most writer today can do) and it's disgusting.
Which is meant to be.
>>69367739
FAT PINK MAST
A
T
P
I
N
K
M
A
S
T
>It’s a well-worn road: bored middle-class creatives (almost all of them college-educated liberals) living lives devoid of any greater purpose inevitably reach out for anything deemed sacred by the conservatives populating any artistic field. They co-opt the language, the plots, the characters, the cliches, the marketing, and proceed to deconstruct it all like a mad doctor performing an autopsy. Then, using cynicism, profanity, scatology, dark humor, and nihilism, they put it back together into a Frankenstein’s monster designed to shock, outrage, offend, and dishearten.
>In the case of the fantasy genre, the result is a mockery and defilement of the mythopoeic splendor that true artists like Tolkien and Howard willed into being with their life’s blood. Honor is replaced with debasement, romance with filth, glory with defeat, and hope with despair. Edgy? Nah, just punk kids farting in class and getting some giggles from the other mouth-breathers.
>It’s quite rich to see many of the guys writing fantasy today being praised for (to once again quote Publisher’s Weekly talking about Joe Abercrombie) successfully exposing the “madness, passion, and horror of war.” How soon we forget that some of the early work of J.R.R. Tolkien — the man who pioneered the selfsame High Fantasy now being dragged “down into the gutter” to make it suitably “edgy” — was penned while he sat in the trenches of World War I, even while most his closest friends were being killed. Tolkien later wrote the a sizable amount of The Lord of the Rings during the Second World War, while worrying about two of his sons as they headed off to do their part.
>Call me humorless, call me old-fashioned, but I daresay the good professor had a much better idea of war and heroes than the nihilistic jokesters writing modern fantasy.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2011/02/12/the-bankrupt-nihilism-of-our-fallen-fantasists/
>>69371174
>evanposter
>haven't read LOTR which in some countries is a mandatory HIGHSCHOOL reading
"Colour me of the tones of surprise"
GRRM, writer and famous fat man
>>69371222
Tolkien is a nobody in the canon of literature because his skills are so far below that of the actual greats, they can't even be measured by the same rubric. I accept your concession that Tolkien is not great, and I implore you and all to seek out actual greats (of which there are many) and set aside this, shall we say, "fantasy world of second-hand, childish banalities."
>69371303
Lolita is pretty good though
>>69370930
The Dune series deserves much more attention, it is arguably better than GRRM's stuff.
>>69371390
Yeah, it's the best when sheltered assholes claim they know the realities of war. I'm a sheltered asshole, but I make no such claim.
>>69371398
>Two hands
>Didn't read both books at the same time
That's where you fucked up
>>69367739
>I don't have any additional skill like Tolkien being a linguist so I'll just criticize him for writing about something else than me
Cool bait bro
>>69371303
Vladdy's critical work and poetry is awful, but his prose is great. Separate the author's personality from his work unless you want to be laughed at.
