I feel like a lot of people are misunderstanding Tony's point of view on the accords.
>What's the point of being answerable to the UN? There will still be collateral damage
This is true, there will of course be collateral damage whenever The Avengers intervene in something, the point of Tony's side is shifting the responsibility for the collateral damage from the little, independent group of superheroes to the general population of the world.
As the UN is an assembly of delegates of elected governments that represent their people, especially so in the movie where the UN seems to be a lot more efficient, the act of calling The Avengers via a general or Security Council vote to intervene will be the result of the most perfect global democratic process available to humankind (at the moment).
It's only a few steps away from having a message pop up on everyone's phones/computers: Send in Avengers Y/N? And just taking a full world population vote.
I honestly support Tony's position, and think it's a completely natural progression from his actions and consequences in previous films to want to take some of the responsibility away from being a hero, and part of The Avengers.
>inb4 MUH INDIVIDUALISM
>>69281878
>>69281969
wow. nice.
>>69281878
Yes, yes, everybody has to follow the rules and due process except Tony "my bad Slokovia" Stark, because he just saw a videotape of his mommy getting killed.
>>69282063
Literally wtf are you on about?
>>69281969
Ultron was as much Wanda's fault as Tony's, and Hulk's rampage in South Africa was almost entirely on her.
>>69281969
This still only applies if you think Tony's saying
>We gotta stop with the collateral damage guys!!!
Which he's not.
>>69281969
>blaming Tony for Washington because he helped design the helicarriers
That's bullshit
>>69281878
>>69282119Tony spends the whole movie talking about how they need to be put in check, and follow the rules, then ends up going off the reservation to help Cap in Siberia, until he sees a video showing Bucky murdering his parents, and then goes apeshit, and tries to kill Bucky, without any legal permission to do so, warrant, or due process
>>69282596
Oh right, I see your point. On the other hand, I can see how the accords might not seem particularly binding to those on Tony's side until Cap and the rest of the fugitives are convinced, or in prison.
Think of it: if they ratify the accords while still divided into Cap and Iron Man's teams, before Cap's even gone into hiding, they're legitimising Tony's superheroes and declaring all Steve's superheroes as super villains straight away - I can see Tony not accepting the resolution until they've at least pursued Cap and his story to its conclusion.
>>69282464
He designed them and gave them to SHIELD who misused them, evidence that the gooberment cant be trusted with his superhero stuff.
>>69282220
>wanda was acting as a villain
>tony pretends to be hero
>>69281878
>siding with the whiny hypocritical faggot manlet
>>69282891
US government =/= UN Security Council, especially not in the MCU
>>69283681
Wanda thought she was doing the right thing, too.
>>69283721
>being a small-minded libertarian
>>69283752
Yeah, and then she realized she was in the wrong and changed sides. She has a clear moral compass and actually has a brain as a character.
>>69282891
He didn't design the helicarriers, he helped on the propulsion system or something like that without knowing what the helicarriers actually were
>>69283824
Just like Tony. He acknowledges that Ultron was a mistake and that playing world police isn't the way to go.
>>69283913
Tony's entire moral compass is egocentric and determined by his mental traumas. He's impulsive and shortsighted so he doesn't really grasp the longterm effects of his decisions. That 's the irony of him being "Mr. Futurist".
>>69281878
The Accords were bullshit even if their intent was good because they were designed to be authoritative control over the Avengers without negotiation.
Imagine if the UN came to your front door and said "Your car is dangerous is has the potential to run everybody over, and someone else who also owns are car ran somebody over already. You have to sign this paper saying we will let you drive when we say you can drive, and if you refuse you can no longer drive anymore, it would be illegal for you to drive if you do so without signing."
They're treating the Avengers like weapons, not people just because they have abilities others don't.
So while in principle the accords are a good thing, in practice and execution they are not.
Plus the UN's track record is shit, how much genocide has happened and continues to happen under the UN's watch? The avengers would have to rely on a committee to oversee their daily lives. That's kind of a shitty life.
>>69283975
>what is a character arc
That WAS his character, it's pretty clear in this film that he's changed, especially after the events of Ultron and losing Pepper. He seems a lot more unsure of his place in the world and almost embarrassed of his egocentric, "Mr Futurist" persona. Seems a perfectly natural transition into wanting to become more of a tool for global protection under the responsibility and guidance of the world populace, than one of the very few protectors completely charged with the responsibility and repercussions of protecting the earth.
>>69284056
>They're treating the Avengers like weapons, not people just because they have abilities others don't.
No, they're treating them like people. People have to obey international law just like everybody else.
It has nothing to do with having superpowers. It's about being vigilantes.
>>69284056
I thought it was hilarious how they tried to talk up the UN when I thought it was globally agreed upon to be an overall failure.
>>69284056
>the UN should stop keeping track of, regulating and monitoring nuclear arms stockpiles
This is what you sound like
>>69284056
>Imagine if the UN came to your front door and said "Your car is dangerous is has the potential to run everybody over, and someone else who also owns a car ran somebody over already. You have to sign this paper saying we will let you drive when we say you can drive, and if you refuse you can no longer drive anymore, it would be illegal for you to drive if you do so without signing."
So like a driving...license?
>>69281878
The UN is basically acting as replacement SHIELD.
>>69284093
Then you obviously haven't watched CW because he fucked up with Bucky and then getting pissed at Bucky for brainwashed Bucky shenanigans. He basically burned all his bridges.
>>69284108
>War Machine: This is the UN we're talking about! It's not SHIELD, it's not Hydra...
>the United "Deeply Concerned" Nations
I was chuckling in my seat too.
>>69281969
>>69281969
ok can someone explain this to me?
suits in new york, i thought they were aliens? or in dc, i thought it was hydra? also why is there not the blowing up from Wanda in this picture or how she manipulated the Hulk going apeshit in africa or manipulated Tony building Ultron?
also in the movie it was never that tony urged the others to sign because he thought it was the right thing, he and widow basically explained that they only play along until they found another solution, when he said the line about 'we need to put in check' the others were asking for his opinion
>>69284108
Any human institution is inherently imperfect and subject to the same failures as human beings themselves. The UN has most definitely not been a failure, and if you honestly believe so it's probably because you know very little about global development or macroeconomics.
>>69282495
Technically, it does considering it not only told the League of Nations to fuck itself as soon as it figured out it wasn't gonna work, but it has a low opinion of the UN and frequently ignores its sanctions as well as ate the New York and Helicarrier disasters as "shit happens bro, but man are we glad you were there."
The US was probably only compliant at all because all the shitty little African nations that can't keep terrorists from fucking em' up when they're entrusted with weapons of mass destruction threw a hissy fit at them.
>>69284174
>he and widow basically explained that they only play along until they found another solution, when he said the line about 'we need to put in check' the others were asking for his opinion
Pretty much. They said it's better to take this deal now and "still have one hand on the wheel" than to refuse and have the UN become an enemy of the Avengers very existence.
>>69284134
A driver's license does not control your life. It doesn't say "you can't drive only when it's dry", "you can not drive between the hours of 5 and 6".
It's limited regulation controlled by a local government, whether it's state or federal (or national). I guess in Europe you have the European License but even then it's not full control.
>>69284200
>The UN has most definitely not been a failure
You give me one accomplishment by the UN that could not have been achieved by any other transnational coalition. Go on
The idea that adding a bureaucracy to the super-heroing process would result in less collateral damage and better decision-making was pretty laughable
>>69281878
>let's make the heroes the world's government personal army
how about hell no
cap is right, the united nations would never really do anything good just like they don't ever do a godamn thing right in real life
>>69284200
I will quote the film "2 men can do more than 100"
>>69284319
As opposed to one unelected guy's personal army?
>>69284096
>No, they're treating them like people. People have to obey international law just like everybody else.
Two posts below you equates them nuclear weapons. That's the whole idea is the UN is treating them like weapons that need to be regulated.
>>69284281
It does say where you can drive, how fast, with what vehicle, and if you're allowed to drive at all.
We regulate driving. We should absolutely regulate super war.
>>69284287
>Tony: I need to shoot the guy NOW
>Built in UN certified failsafes: Submitting fire request to on staff UN official. Please hold...............................proceed with firing
>enemy dodges and rocket destroys a row of shanties and their residents
>BUT WHHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYY!? WE HAVE GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT!
>>69284361
>As opposed to one unelected guy's personal army?
And what sort of safeguards come with using elected officials instead? What exactly does that bring to the table?
>>69284398
How fucking stupid are you that you can't read. It's limited regulation, not ownership. What the accord would propose would be ownership of the Avengers.
>>69284388
It's treating them like an army, which they are.
The Avengers shouldn't be allowed to ignore international law to fight crime any more than some random schmuck who finds a tank.
If they want to stop being vigilantes and abide the same laws as everyone else, they're 100% free to do that.
>>69284425
Checks and balances. You get less done but you limit how much power can be abused by making sure that nobody is above the authority of everyone else.
>>69284285
>that couldn't be achieved by another transnational coalition
What? That's retarded, of cours they could. The UN is just the largest and most influential coalition.
As to their successes, the UN humanitarian programs (UNHDP) have been largely successful at alleviating poverty traps and transitional poverty in many developing countries, reducing the rate of increase of absolute poverty in the world, establishing hospitals, schools and basic infrastructure in developing countries, playing a major role in eradicating polio, removing millions of land mines from civilian population centres and much more.
As for the other UN functions, such as peacekeeping, the overall benefits in terms of social and ethnic stability in those regions far outweigh the costs in any objective analysis.
>inb4 HURR DATS ALL SHIT FOR NIGGERS IT DONT COUNT
>>69284455
Which is fine you stupid fucker, but the original point is that it was an accord with out negotiation. They never were given a choice to contest or negotiate the terms.
>>69284452
>What the accord would propose would be ownership of the Avengers
No, it wouldn't.
The Accords are basically saying that the Avengers aren't going to get exceptions from the same laws that everyone else follows. They aren't having any restrictions place upon them that everyone else doesn't already have.
>>69281878
Did Steve even read the accords? What gives him the right to go to foreign countries and intervene? Why is he allowed to decide what the right thing is and put himself above the law? Does he even realize that he is now the embodiment of Nazi ideals, that he is the Ubermensch and that he sees himself above others in morality and ability?
>>69284527
Because that would defeat the entire purpose of the world's government's standing up and saying "Hey, we're the ones with the legal authority to hand out justice here. You guys have to obey the same laws as everyone else."
A criminal doesn't get to negotiate the laws he violates.
>>69282596
>Expecting logic in capeshit post Iron Man
>>69284594
That's idiotic, there has been no law, or regulation drafted up until the accord that was related to super powers. So they were defining international law on how the Avengers should be run. That means that they weren't criminals until the accords were drafted, which means that these were defined without due process.
Wanda was arrested and confined to a room without due process just because of her abilities.
>>69281878
I think the question we want to ask is what the hell was the UN doing before all of this? Why didn't it lend a hand when Ayy Lamo/Ultron/Hydra Terrorists showed up? The only reason that the Avengers have to do this vigilism in the first place is because the UN is too slow to react to all these major events happening: and given that people lake Hawkeye exist, you can't say that they probably didn't have their own near-supes agents and special forces that would be capable of, if not solving the issue, at least showing up and trying their hardest to show that the UN does give a damn.
The reason this is so objectable is that both in RL and in the Marvel verse', the UN has proved that with unlimited resources it cannot respond to any major crisis beyond an angry letter.
>>69284670
>That means that they weren't criminals until the accords were drafted
Wanda is
>>69284670
The Accords have nothing to do with superpowers. Half the Avengers don't even have superpowers.
The Avengers were absolutely criminals before the Accords were drafted - They were ignoring international law as vigilantes left and right. The world just decided to look the other way up until now.
>>69284697
And what court said she was where she wasn't represented, present or provided counsel?
>>69284723
Detaining a dangerous criminal before their trial is normal procedure.
>>69284764
I guess europers can imprison people without mentioning the charges against them or informing them that they are under arrest.
Why didn't they use Toby Spiderman? Dumb kid is annoying baka....
>>69284723
I don't care about CW. She should have been executed for what she did in Age Of Ultron. Funny she cares about innocent people now when she didn't give a fuck about setting a Hulk on them
>>69284816
She already knew that she had broken a shit-load of laws. It was clear exactly why she was under arrest.
>>69284711
Did they even use passports to get into other countries or did they enter illegally every time?
>>69284056
>Imagine if the UN came to your front door and said "Your car is dangerous is has the potential to run everybody over, and someone else who also owns are car ran somebody over already. You have to sign this paper saying we will let you drive when we say you can drive, and if you refuse you can no longer drive anymore, it would be illegal for you to drive if you do so without signing."
Ooh, I know this one. What is "literally what you fucking have to agree to when you get a drivers' licence" ?
>>69284174
NY was invaded by aliens. Suits thought the appropriate response was to nuke down NY to take the aliens down.
In the grand scheme of things it's the better solution if there is an enslavement of entire human race at stake.
>>69284508
>UN peacekeeping is effective
wew lad
>>69285137
I'm not arguing that they actively achieve any military objections, because I honestly don't know about that.
I am arguing that there very presence in developing countries helps provide stability and security in communities where there was very little of either, with actual, accountable enforcement of land and property rights, as well as international law providing a much more solid basis for communities and infrastructure to develop than existed before.
In terms of their benefits verse their costs, I'd say they are effective.
>>69285231
Objectives*, shit.
>>69284843
>She already knew that she had broken a shit-load of laws. It was clear exactly why she was under arrest.
That's not how Miranda rights work.
went into the movie being full team cap because fuck registration but i swapped fairly early on when cap's only reasoning was literally MUH BUCKY
fuck off dude, hope he dies
>>69284986
yeah absolutely IF there was no super heroes but then they can't really bitch about collateral damage when they publicly where willing to kill everyone in NY
>>69284873
They did whatever they wanted when they wanted, wich is the whole point.
They specifically point it thats its a bunch of americans citizens running around the world doing whatever the fuck they want.
Cap's point of view is skewed to all hell because Shield got fucked by Hydra and he knows Zemo is going after the 6 soldiers. Wich he tries to explain to Tony at the airport but Tony is under pressure from the accords and secratery of state to bring them in.
>prevent massive casualties and the end of humanity multiple times
>but muh little kid died you should STOP
>>69284056
Tony clearly says that he can get anything amended from the accords if need be or believes so anyway. Cap loses it because he learns Tony is holding Wanda against her will, wich is why he wouldn't sign in the first place.
>>69285231
M8 I can think of exactly two situations where peacekeepers have actually done anything. Whereas the Rwandan Genocide, Srebrenica Massacre and the whole Somalia debacle occured while peacekeepers were present
>>69285432
What about Ultron and all the shit he causes in all 3 Ironman movies? Why do you suddenly dismiss that?
>>69285353
>only reason
>using literally incorrectly
You fuck off, retard. You obviously didn't watch the film if you think the "literally" only reason Cap didn't want government regulation was because of Bucky.
>>69285432
think of the children anon
>>69285492
Not to mention the guy got dumped.
That does nothing to you alpha basement dwellers though
>>69285492
Who's dismissing that? Reign Tony in for HIS crimes, not the whole Avengers.
>>69285434
>Captain America
>US Army officer
> eh, fuck orders
> eh, fuck being subordinate in rank to Rhodes
> eh, fuck the entire world
> eh, fuck my friends
> eh, fuck Tony's feelings
> its all good though, I wrote a letter
Man, fuck Captain America
The UN is a joke, full of inept and corrupt politicians
>>69285541
Hes practically the Avengers mate... They exist because of him.
>>69285595
Nah, they exist because of Nick Fury and Hydra.
>>69285434
Cap is retarded if he doesn't think Wanda is a danger. Has he not read House of M?
>>69285593
/thread
>>69285626
I think the moral of stories like that is people will turn out how you view them, even if they initially are not that way.
Basically, the more you treat a person with super powers like a freak and monster, the more likely they are to just say fuck it and embrace what people already think they are.
>>69285573
I dont see anywhere where he says fuck the world in any capacity. Hydra highjacked shield, whats to say it wont happen again?
>>69285593
>Unlike this other government! Oh wait
>Unlike the Avengers! Oh wait
>Unlike people in general! Oh wait
>>69285609
They are completely bankrolled by Tony by Ultron...
>>69285662
I think you are right. I won't be surprised if Scarlet Witch unleashes her full potential for good or worse.
>>69284557
Bbbut its ok, my opinion is the right one!
>>69285709
Exactly, faggot.
What would the Avengers look like if someone like Hillary Clinton had full control over them?
Lots of mysterious deaths, PR campaigns and regime change.
>>69285744
So you pick the one that represents the greatest number of people, so has the greatest amount democratic accountability, like the fucking UN dumbshit
>>69285776
The UN doesn't represent the people. It's a small group of politicians.
>>69285713
I'm sorry, what? S.H.I.E.L.D existed as a government entity since before Tony was born.
Then it was infiltrated by Hydra for a while, and destroyed a bit after the first Avenger's film.
>>69281878
The entire accords were a shit tier replacement for the Human Registration Act. Too bad they couldn't actually use that because there's only like 6 people they have the license to
>>69285776
Not when SHIELD, which was UN-Lite showed that it was infiltraited by a terrorist cell and you KNOW that UN officials will try and withold aid if it means that country they don't like #125 gets battered down.
Imagine if a crisis were to happen in the Ukraine that needed the Avengers and Russia delayed and/or vetoed any intervention in order to weaken them? THAT is about the best case scenario assuming no super-villian groups have infiltrated it.
>>69285802
Then Hydra was found out and Tony took over.
>>69285776
The Avengers is the only group of beings publicly known on Planet Earth both capable AND willing to *prevent* world and/or galaxy ending events, whilst the governments of the world squabble over their petty, insignificant issues.
Put shit into perspective. You want the same people who war over inconsequential bullshit in charge of people who can stop entire planets from being erased?
"Excuse me, Avengers, you can't go stop Galactus from devouring our solar system until you've signed these release forms to get your equipment and until we've altered the countries and had a few meetings to discuss the plan of attack and come to an agreement."
>>69285867
>>69285867
>>69285867
>>69285917
>>69285917
>>69285917
underrated post to be honest
>>69285915
Right and so now Tony wants to hand control over The Avengers to the same people who created and allowed SHIELD to be buttfucked by Hydra.
The SAME man, who has cause how many casualties by trying to capture the Hulk? For what reason?
>>69285961
>>69285917
Tell that to the dead innocents caught in the collateral. Fucking pig.
>>69284658
it does make sense though. Tony was only for the accord because of his guilt. Him trying to kill bucky at the end was just shining a light on how full of shit he was.
>>69285917
Would never happen becauseMarvel doesn't own Galactus
>>69285961
>samefagging
RESPOND TO MY POSTS GUYS!!!!!!
>>69285987
>>69285987
goes to show how you lack the vision to see the grand scheme or bigger picture (alien invasion, ultron, thanos etc. etc.
>>69286042
>>69286042
actually no i'm a different poster hahaha
>>69285987
It's war. Tell that to the governments who war over way more stupider shit and cause worse collateral daily, and all throughout history.
I'd rather the planet still exist at the end of the day, with some destruction, than nothing at all forever, with the planet being destroyed.
Wouldn't you? Nah, probably not.
>>69286004
Yeah but Fox can't do F4 to save their lives, so I'm assuming they'll sell off Galactus and a few elements from F4 for dosh.
So why wereTony's parents driving in the middle of bumfuck nowhere transporting glowsticks?
>>69281969
no, ca right
>>69285987
>>69285987
quite honestly, if everybody was afraid of collateral damage like you, we would be speaking japanese and worshiping their emporor
THE UN SUCKS AT EVERYTHING
>>69286093
Didn't you pay attention to the opening scene with CGI young Tony talking to his parents?
Or were you too enamored with how realistic young Tony looked? I was.
>>69286093
did tony live in russia?
was that on the way to the airport?
it was daylight when they showed that flashback thing.
>>69286091
>>69286091
agree with you here anon, we don't even have to go that far back in history, Afghanistan and Iraq anybody?
>>69283768
lol ok
>>69286091
>Yeah but Fox can't do F4 to save their lives, so I'm assuming they'll sell off Galactus and a few elements from F4 for dosh.
or you know, they'll just do galactus and give him a different name. Or use the next best thing because it really doesn't matter and not worth paying money for. He's not spiderman.
>>69281878
Even if you're right (which you aren't), not only did Tony recruit a 15-year-old for combat in an internal scuffle amidst superpowered, deadly soldier, he also designed and developed a skintight suit for him to swing around in. "Onesie," indeed.
>>69286138
>>69286172
I didn't get it either. I thought they were rich.
>>69286091
fuck what i wouldn't give for MCU Doom
>>69286093
Pls respond
>>69286093
they were heading to the Pentagon, delivering the serum for the super soldiers
A more interesting conflict would be to have someone pulling UN strings so the Avengers would be under a bad guy's thumb. Throw in some Hydra dick heads or some other villain.
>>69287023
cool idea, rich evans.
>>69287178
Thanks, now go watch Previously Recorded. Buy a shirt or a glass, maybe visit our Patreon
>>69286853
In a dinky cheap car, alone?
What kind of shitty poorfag gig were they running?
>>69287211
if you get rid of aidsfag then i will watch pr
>>69287367Tbh the pre rec with rich and jack where they talked about BvS was pretty good. Jack isn't all bad
>>69287424
no, jack. fuck off
>>69286853
>Honey, the government called. They want me to deliver this Super Soldier Serum to the Pentagon in the middle of the night, do you want to come?
>I don't know Howard, sounds danegrous, how are we going?
>In my oldest, most unsafe car
>Why, that's different, I'm coming
>>69287463
Don't forget Winter Soldier watching that conversation through a window.
Daily reminder that Cap only wanted a fair trail for his friend Bucky but the government wanted to kill him and that's why he intervened
Daily reminder that Cap was about to sign but Tony kept Wanda prisioner
Daily reminder Tony didn't listen to Cap about the super villain scheming to wake up 5 super soliders
Daily reminder that Tony tried to kil Bucky without any legal permission to do so
>>69287463
iron man said they never made it to the airport.
so they were driving to the super serum to the airport lol.
how come the black guy didnt take revenge on the guy who killed his dad
>>69287620
muh justice
>>69287620
muh flawless character
>>69287620
>My father's been murdered, fuck this is so horrible
>I will now become a murderer, that will make my murdered father proud
>>69287620
Because he saw what happened when Zemo and Tony lashed out against the people that killed their fathers and realized that that was retarded.
>>69287906
Or he's a perfect moralfag who refuses to kill
>>69287534
CAP WAS RIGHT
A
P
W
A
S
R
I
G
H
T
>>69281878
Avengers should stay private. Like PMC now.
How diffrent would Nigeria icident would be if Avengers acted within UN? It would turn out same.
I agree with Cap on that one.
And I agree with Iron Man for wanting to take out winter soldier. Cap should do the same, no matter the friendship. Brainwashed or no, he caused so much trouble so far.
>>69288159
But he dindu nuffin, he was brainwashed
>>69287973
If he was he literally would not have chased WS to Siberia
>>69283739
are there any good governments in the MCU? Don't forget the World Security Council tried to nuke NYC in The Avengers.
>>69281878
The government didn't give a shit about collateral damage. That's just the stance they used to try and guilt trip them. They just wanted control over the Avengers for their own use.
>>69287463
>>69287352
Guys, Howard Stark was aware that SHIELD had been compromised by Hydra, in fact that's the reason why he was targated for assassination. So, it makes sense that he tried to be as low-profile as possible, and cover his true intentions as a holiday trip. The implication was that he was trying to deliver the serum to the pentagon to keep it away from Hydra's hands.
>>69285394
Pretty funny how those 6 soldiers played no part in the plot at the end despite everything building up to that.
>>69288710
I liked that being a red herring actually.
>>69288710
That's the point. They turned the "put aside our differences and fight the big bad" cliche on its ass, and Zemo still won.
>>69288648
>I'm projecting my own mistrust of authority and failure to amount to anything significant onto this fictional UN scenario
cute
>>69288676
No matter how you look at it, if you know there's a chance of people coming after you, you don't bring your wife along. It's just a shitty thing to do.
>>69283739
>UN Security Council
To be fair, one of the most prominent people on the Security Council in MCU is one of the Heads of Hydra.
>>69289025
The guy literally referred to them as weapons of mass destruction. You're telling me there are no lines that need to be read between?
>>69281878
His point of view was shit, he signed the accords out of guilt, that's all, just personal guilt. It's a valid reason, but it's nothing more or nothing less, just plain old simple guilt. Guilt has driven Tony Stark to be Iron Man
up until Ironman 3, and now guilt is pushing him to abandon the role (why he didn't have a suit at the UN).
>>69289057
>It's just a shitty thing to do.
Howard wasn't exactly the best person ever, there is a reason why Tony resented him so much.
>>69289069
Both Hydra and Malic are dead though. Only way Hydra is coming back is if Red Skull shows up from his space travels.
>>69284557
The shit Avengers deal with affect the world. Borders are a hindrance to that.
>>69289135
Sure, but my point was that the UN Security Council wasn't exactly "safe". And who's to say that the groundwork for the accords weren't laid while Mallick was still alive? I'm not trying to shoehorn HYDRA into Civil War, though, just saying that UN Security Council isn't safe either. And that's part of Cap's point, he outright says so in the movie. Policies change.
Also, you're wrong in saying that RS is the only way Hydra will return. That's literally the point of Hydra. Cut off one head, etc. This is like the third time we believe Hydra is dead. There's always some other hidden faction, as ridiculous as it may seem.
>>69289131
Being a shitty person doesn't necessarily imply not caring at all for your wife's well-being. He was simply an arrogant bastard, not a moustache-twirling villain.
>>69289216
Well Malick outing all the heads of hydra kinda did that in, I think the MCU want's to leave Hydra behind and focus on new and hopefully better villains.
>>69289131
Well the fact that he recreated the super soldier serum against Caps wishes already shows how much of a dick he was.
>>69289260
Probably, but I'd still maintain it's very doubtful Mallick truly outed them all, if he even knew of all of them. Hydra's just stupid that way. Or cool, depending on your view. But yeah, I agree that it seems they want to move on. Good riddance too, it's been HYDRA HYDRA HYDRA since season 1 of Agents. It was fine as the setup for Winter Soldier, but man am I ready for something new.
>>69289338
>>69289260
Zemo outiright says that Hydra deserved to be destroyed, so the message was clear, we won't see anymore of them.
>>69289381
Well, that's just like his opinion man.He's right
>>69289381
Yea but the fact that hydra survived through an AI on a fucking atari, shows that they can do pretty much anything to bring it back.
![no-you-move-will-we-see-the-iron-spider-in-captain-america-3-civil-war-jpeg-281444[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/sOgxrGn.jpg "no-you-move-will-we-see-the-iron-spider-in-captain-america-3-civil-war-jpeg-281444[1].jpg")
>kept seeing this speech in threads before the movie came out
>its was in the movie
>not said by cap
I appreciate it was there though
>>69289723
This speech applies pretty well to ISIS recruits
>>69281878
>Captain America civil war thread
> Depp discussions about morality and freedom vs security
>BvS thread
>Evans posting, DC RULES BVS SUPERMAN SuX XD
What happened?
>>69290231
team cap literally is ISIS
>>69289723
this only sounds noble because captain is saying it.
it sounds more like the justification every fucking villain and evil has ever had. "oh so the ENTIRE world says I'm wrong? I'm not the problem, THEY are!" yeah good thinking, douchebag.
>>69290434
The movie isn't a piece of shit.
>>69290559
I think that's half the point; Cap was teetering on a slippery slope when he said it, but in the comics he was literally fighting against people being discriminated and detained so it rang true.
If you think of the Avengers as a military task force, which is pretty much what they are, then the Accords make a lot of sense.
It's not like the military is able to deploy troops whenever they want, wherever they want, to do whatever missions they want.
They need approval from outside the military to do such things. Why shouldn't the Avengers need approval from outside their little team to deploy? Why do the Avengers deserve an exception?
>>69286210
> not only did Tony recruit a 15-year-old for combat in an internal scuffle amidst superpowered, deadly soldiers, he also designed and developed a skintight suit for him to swing around in
I see nothing wrong with that.
>>69286210
>>69290800
Tony advocates the use of child soldiers
That's as low - and desperate - as you can get, and I'm surprised Cap didn't make a comment on this.
Tony was right, Cap was just being a selfish fuck because
>MUH BUCKY
>>69290861
maybe because Cap just recruted a guy who fought hard never going back to be a criminal but can kiss that thought goodbye
>>69290861
Cap was a skinny, weak-ass kid when he signed up for the army. I think he of all people would commend Peter for doing what he does. He was impressed, not outraged by Spidey's age.
>>69290675
They pretty much do whatever they want with drone strikes. All approval is internal.
Viewing the Avengers as drones, the accords in the movie would be like requiring UN approval for every drone strike.
So will the UN allow them to stop Thanos?
>>69290998
I agree slightly, but you can't ignore Peter as only being 15-years old being pulled pulled into a fight with superheroes. What if Wanda went after him?
Still, I liked their banter.
>Where you from?
>Queens!
>capeshit
>>69291085
do you really think team Cap was out for blood and death? i mean, Tony and the others didn't want to hurt them at all
>>69290861
You know, in the comics it was 100X worse.
Like, the goverment forcefully recruited any children and teenager who showed up superhuman abilities, literally by putting a gun to their heads, send them away from home to a militarized superhero boot camp, and put into missions even befor finishing their training. One of the kids died on the first day the camp was open. Shit was bonkers.
>>69291085
>Peter as only being 15-years old being pulled pulled into a fight with superheroes
Peter was one of the most powerful persons present in the fight, Tony was well aware that there was little the other team could do to hurt him even if they wished to (which wasn't the case).
And yes, him getting Spidey literally was a desperation move, this is made clear in the movie, his side lacked enough numbers. It's the reason why the Widow involves the Panther in the fight.
>>69291085
But no one wanted to seriously injure each other and Tony told Peter to stay on the sidelines and 'web them in' Spiderlinger just chose to rush into the middle of the action.
But yeah, Tony's not making much sense.
>Is blamed for the death of a young man
>This fills him with guilt
>Recruits a teenager to fight for him
>>69291278
>there was little the other team could do to hurt him
Made more than obvious by how Peter casually caught Bucky's metal punch with no effort.
>>69290675
I don't remember if they focus on it in the movies, but in the comics Cap is worried that they will be used for political agendas. The gist of it is that while it's true that they wield devastating powers, and it's problematic that there is no control and everything is basically left up to the morality of the individual, it is even more problematic to put all those powers under the control of a political body with goals beyond protecting the populace - or even differing ideas on how to protect that populace. Administrations and ideologies come and go.
Here is something no one has brought up yet.
Why the fuck did Cap see fit to cause so much drama and destruction over someone who still tried to kill him - and yet still calls his "Friend" over literally EVERY SINGLE AVENGER WHOM HE HAS FOUGHT NUMEROUS BATTLES WITH AND OWES HIS LIFE TO MANY TIMES OVER
no one would do this, it's a stupid setup to a great film
>>69291349
>Teenager
except he's not just a teenager - he's a near invincible car stopping force that goes toe to toe with everyone inc cap and when Tony thinks he's had enough he even tells him to go home - there is nothing nonsensical about it friend
>>69291672
>muh childhood memories from da 40's
Yeah yeah cap why don't you go subjugate a minority you old racist fuck
>>69291672
Because Steve is a relic and literally LITERALLY a man out of time.
Bucky is a literal actual friend of his, who he loves in the brotherly-style AS WELL AS being an anchor point to his past.
Bucky is the only person (now that What'shername is dead) he can relate to and talk to about his own life/their shared lives.
It's not particularly weird that he's got a massive affinity for Bucky.
>>69291758
>It's not particularly weird that he's got a massive boner for Bucky.
FTFY
>>69291672
Cap would do the same for any of the Avengers if they had been mind-controlled into being a weapon and were being hunted without the possibility of a trial.
Also Bucky is all he has left from his previous life.
>>69291672
Bucky is more than a friend, he considers him a brother. Only a person who hasn't experienced that kind of connection to another human being, would fail to understand.
I am sorry for you, because that's clearly the case.
>>69291758
>>69291825
>>69291830
There is also Cap feeling guilty for having lost Bucky in that train, which led to him becoming the Winter Soldier.
The Avengers aren't going to sit around and wait for a vote when Thanos comes to earth and destroys everything in his path to kill Vision and get the Stone. Vision will most likely die because in the comics his character has died at least twice.
>>69292032
This argument keeps being brought up as if that was all the Avengers had to do in their life, but the truth is most of their missions are about resolving smallish conflicts in other countries.
Sometimes sending a bunch of superguys from another country to punch a few faces in doesn't solve conflicts, specially if those superguys have the power of an actual army (I.E.: internal terrorism, cases where there's political influences at play, territory issues), and that's what the accord is for, not for the obvious cases of actual plain evil coming from space to literally anihilate al human life.
>muh democracy
>gotsta habs muh durrmocracy
>>69288215
Tell that to Howard Stark's smashed face.
>>69284151
Then lets blame Cap for going emotional and not signing because Tony had Wanda under house arrest (for her own safety) while the Accords were being handled.
>>69289025
>Thunderbolt Ross, the guy who anted to use Hulk as a weapon, and the one who created Abomination
>World council, the guys who decided to nuke NY the moment aliens appeared
>World council, the guys who said lets build 3 helicarriers with weapons to instill fear on our enemies and wage preventive wars everywhere
Yep, my mistrust is totally unfounded
>Bucky was mindcontrolled, he should be killed
>Hawkeye was mindcontrolled, it's ok though
HD Torrent when!?
>>69293254
Bucky didn't kill Tony's mommy.
>>69293362
I meant Hawkeye...
>what is the point of a group that protects the earth taking orders from the democratically elected representatives of earth
tough question
>>69293254
>Bucky was mindcontrolled, Steve wants a fair trail? no, he should be put down
>Hawkeye was mindcontrolled, no need for even a trial
>>69293362
>almost killed all the people present by taking down the helicarrier
>it's almost though, so it doesn't count
>attempted murder isn't a crime
>>69293488
Tony is a selfish guy. The nigga choked his mum, that's the only reason why Bucky needs to die and not Hawkeye.
>>69293636
But it's not only Tony. Pretty much everybody but a few people agreed that Bucky had to be put down like a dog, but nobody ever has judged Hawkeye for what he did while being controlled.
It'd be nice if at least someone mentioned this during the movie, preferably Black Widow since she's the only one who's actually kind of close to him.
>Lab dude: Sir, we have a pixelated as fuck, black and white, partial image of what it looks to be Bucky
>Suit: No need to investigate here, lets summarise execute him now, send all operatives
>Cap: Doesn't he have the right to a fair trial?
>Suit: Lol, no
>Cap: I'm going to arrest him myself to avoid a massacre
>Suit: Apostate, you're now a fugitive!
>Cap: Well, this ended well, not even one victim and Bucky is now under arrest waiting for his trail, I'm ok with this, I'm even going to sign the accords
>Tony: Hi, I have Wanda under house arrest
>Cap: Shit Tony, I can't work with you
>Suits: Awesome, misterious blackout which we aren't going to investigate let Bucky free, the interrogator als misteriously dissapeared and witnesses say he's evil, lets also not investigate that, send every operative to hunt Buck, fire at will
>Cap: Tony, this evil dude is about to wake up 6 super hydra soldiers, all of this was a scheme to keep us distracted, help me out dude
>Tony: I could trust you and keep Bucky under arrest while helping you find this dude, but I prefer to arrest you all and ignore the bad guy
Tony is a cunt
Cap was put in a hard situation and he made the best out of it
Governments are retards and only care about maintaining the status quo in these movies, he only care about public opinions but not about the actual people and that's why they wanted Bucky as a scapegoat
>>69293782
Hawkeye ALMOST killing SHIELD agents wasn't made big public news, and not long after Hulk went on a rampage and NY was invaded by an army of aliens, I think people were busy worrying about that instead.
Bucky is being hunted internationally because WS is responsible for killing the actual king of a country.
>>69293782
Bucky being brainwashed is something not everyone knows, only a few know and only like two really believe it.
>>69294026
>Hawkeye ALMOST killing SHIELD agents
Actually SHIELD agents died in that attack, not directly by Hawkeye but yes indirectly by his actions (blowing up one rotor), I had to rewatch the movie because I even think he killed a couple of nobodies with his bow
And is ok to kill Bucky because what he did (he actually didn't) had more media coverage? holy shit, this is the whole "burn an innocent at the stake to calm the masses is ok"
>>69294284
No it's not okay, Bucky is innocent. But the media coverage is why the public knows about him, and are understandably scared. They don't know he's brainwashed, and villains like Ross don't care.
Fury probably kept info about what happened on the carrier from reaching the public. The agents wouldn't tattle about Clint. Been a long time since I'e watched Avengers, but everything Hawkeye did was happening up in the air and no random witnesses saw or recognized him, cause he's a secret agent.
>>69290941
Ant man was explicitly warned he could be a criminal and he was like "what else is new"
>>69293362
He did kill Agent Coulson, though, who the entire Avengers crew was pretty fond of. Especially Tony.
>>69294897
That was Loki.
>>69295082
Oh, true.
