He was right.
Well duh.
>Maria
>Why'd you say that name?
You posted the wrong pic
>>69265580
Literally admitted he was wrong
First time he's ever had the high ground
He was right about what he said to Hawkeye.
>>69265960
Hawkeye was a real prick in this movie.
>>69265580
I agree. Putting the Avengers under UN oversight was the lightest possible authority (basically meaningless) and Cap still acted like a fucking sperg.
This movie was basically made for people who have no idea how the UN operates.
>>69265946
>I should be allowed to do whatever I want because I - an unelected individual - know best; the rest of the world should bend over and accept my decisions
More like Captain Fascism.
>>69266071
with agendas?
>>69265956
kek
>>69266071
I think marvel pretends the U.N. is more powerful than it actually is
>>69265580
>Don't sign the treaty
>They come after you if you do anything
>Sign the treaty
>They come after you only if you keep pissing them off long enough and hard enough
>You can essentially just do what you want and maybe you will have to answer to some panel if they don't like it
>They can't and won't ever imprison you
>>69266108
>muh agendas
Whose agenda? The whole point is that they can't get anything done because they can't step on the toes of any of the 5 Security Council members with veto powers.
Everyone has agendas, the UN is the one organization where no agenda actually dominates.
>>69265580
He's always right. Even when he's wrong. Go back and check ironman/Stark/Downey Jr. In every movie he is always right even when he's not. They won't let him be wrong
>>69266298
This. At worst they'd get a sternly worded letter.
>we don't like the few causalities while Avengers saved the whole world multiple times.
>we prefer nuking rather than have the Avengers do their job.
>>69265580
IF he was right why did he break his own law in the last portion of the movie.
>>69266081
The safest hands our are own. Also, cap's stance is libertarian.
>>69266071
The funny thing about movies is that in movies UN is always described as some badass organization with the ultimate power. Someone says "I'm from UN." and everyone goes "UN in here to save the day! We're saved!" 100% seriously.
If the US nuked some country the UN would 'denounce' the US and then do... absofuckinglutely nothing. They might even denounce the US a second time to really mean it. But when the UN really, really means it, they condemn actions.
Explain me those high ratings! Just watched the movie, not a bad one i must say.
But i found it a bit boring, i give it a 7 out of 10
I completely disagree with higher valutations
>>69266019
He's king of bros. You lib?
>>69266081
What has cap seen?
Let's let government do what they want
>German Fascism in WWII
Ok, well maybe the world can come together from this.
>Let's just nuke New York and kill 'em all
Well maybe just the American forces?
>Oh look it's just Hydra again
Ok fuck it, no one can even do this right and only we seem to be able to stop it.
>>69266071
The UN is corrupt. Their basically the Star Wars cantina scene, except each alien let's their own people rape and murder, all while pointing their finger at the US.
>>69266478
Yeah, remember in Ultron when the only defense for creating Vision was "I know it can work this time Steve, it's totally different than last time!"
>>69266599
This desu. The UN is a complete joke.
>>69266412
You just said it yourself--nothing will get done. Cap can't save anybody waiting on these 3rd world idiot degenerates to sign a go order.
>>69266585
>Also, cap's stance is libertarian.
No, because the Avengers themselves are enforcing their own personal ideas of justice, and Cap wants no limitations on that power.
>>69266585
By libertarianism, do you really mean what our founding fathers would do? Just say it. Have courage.
>>69266838
Imagine how much more could get done without those pesky checks and balances!
>>69266896
I mean that he supports individualism over the government making the choices for you.
>>69266851
Guess you would have sided with the office manager, not Mr Incredible.
No
Heroes are to be the personification of Good. Revealing the identity and working for others removes that and makes you nothing more than a bitch boy. Heroes would be humanized and families/loved ones targeted by villians.
Heroes should be thought of as Good and not as human.
>>69266851
And government officials are a better option? I mean even when they do send them in there will still be collateral damage.
>>69265956
its over anakin
>>69266979
Oh, I thought you said libertarianism. You meant conservatism.
of course tony was right
but would that have stopped the ultron stuff? ultron came from him dicking about.
they'd only have effective oversight on a few superheroes anyway, all that it would achieve is that they'd ring Thor or someone else and say 'look, these UN cunts are taking too long, sort this out would you?'
>>69266921
I know I could never change your mind, but two examples. One, the EPA, is really just a tool to fuck up US businesses, crippling them, while everywhere else in the world they play dirty. Two, Flint Michigan. Even after Roger and Me, that city, run by pro-government Dems for half a century, with all their checks and balances, still poisoned their own people.
>>69265580
No he wasnt. Almost everything that happened in this movie is Tony's fault; both because he created Ultron and alienated most of the Avengers
>>69265580
Not only that, but the whole "Superheroes are out of control and can be a danger" thing is still there
Even more now that more superheroes like Black Panther, Ant-Man and Spidey came to the light
>>69265580
he was blacked
>>69266979
But the Avengers are acting as a government, enforcing "justice" without unlimited authority.
Libertarianism is a nonsense philosophy because it assumes that the state is the only group capable of restricting your freedom.
So I just saw CW
What was the point of the "there's more Winter Soldiers" plot when Zemo just kills them?
Why did I see Sharon Carter on Late Show and she talked about how she was on Team Iron Man when she clearly was not?
Why was Peggy's funeral being held in London?
Why was Crossbones killed in the first ten minutes.
How can little human dicks even compete with Vision?
>>69266851
being chased by the whole free world is kind of a limitation
and they would've hardly be made more accountable for casualities working under the government than they already were
>>69266774
This. Captain doesnt want to do the bidding of a bunch of chinese and Africans
>>69267209
>Libertarianism is a nonsense philosophy because it assumes that the state is the only group capable of restricting your freedom.
non-aggression principle m8
>>69267110
The issue is balancing power between entities so that no one group can abuse their power. The Avengers having absolute authority over everyone else is not balance. It's overlords.
>>69265580
>117 countries sign Sokovia Accords
> Real UN has 193 member states, Marvel universe has God knows how many additional fictitious countries like Sokovia, Wakanda, Latveria, etc.
So who didn't sign? The usual suspects in these treaties, ie the Landmine ban w/China, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and such?
>>69267315
Which the Avengers violate. They're hopping into sovereign nations without that nation's permission and hunting down terrorists.
>>69267236
>How can little human dicks even compete with Vision?
I've been wondering this for ages. Only thing I can ever come up to justify that is that Vision is only getting to know his powers. He doesn't even know what the Infinity Gem he has in his head is; so he hasn't really unleashed his full potential, and he doesn't really want to know how far can he go
>What was the point of the "there's more Winter Soldiers" plot when Zemo just kills them?
Decoy?
>>69266071
You do remember that the UN secret council fucking launched a goddamn nuke at New York in the first movie, right?
>>69267209
To be fair if they acted as the government they would be doing what was for the best interest of the government, not the people.
>>69267369
>They're hopping into sovereign nations without that nation's permission and hunting down terrorists
So the Avengers are basically Team America
>>69267395
Vision is gonna have to die in Infinity War 1 anyways. Sucks that nigga has a death sentence. I would have liked a stand-alone Vision film.
>>69267236
>What was the point of the "there's more Winter Soldiers" plot when Zemo just kills them?
Bait.
>Why did I see Sharon Carter on Late Show and she talked about how she was on Team Iron Man when she clearly was not?
I dunno.
>Why was Peggy's funeral being held in London?
Because that's her home.
>Why was Crossbones killed in the first ten minutes?
Because he tried to take down Cap with him. His purpose was served.
>>69267236
>What was the point of the "there's more Winter Soldiers" plot when Zemo just kills them?
As a trap
>Why did I see Sharon Carter on Late Show and she talked about how she was on Team Iron Man when she clearly was not?
To fool you
>Why was Peggy's funeral being held in London?
wasnt she English ?
>Why was Crossbones killed in the first ten minutes.
Bad choice by Marvel
>How can little human dicks even compete with Vision?
he doesn't have one?
>>69267354
Venezuela, Russia, Iran, United Kingdom, Switzerland, China, United Arab Emirates, Netherlands, Iceland, Cuba, Colombia, Niger, Pakistan, Mauritius and Norway
>>69267439
Or MSF.
>>69267424
You're confusing serving an existing government with acting as a government themselves. They're doing the latter.
>>69266851
>No, because the Avengers themselves are enforcing their own personal ideas of justice, and Cap wants no limitations on that power.
Well who should limit that power? The U.S. Government, which literally stole one of caps suits, and helped Hammer get Ivanko out of jail to build them weapons? Other governments that spent all of IM2 trying to make their own weapons? Or How about SHIELD, which was completely infiltrated by HYDRA? Or maybe the secret UN security council that launched nuclear weapons?
There are literally no good people to put limits on the power in the MCU.
>>69267415
That wasn't the UN. That was the WSC.
>>69267529
So by that logic they either do the former or the latter then.
>>69267572
All of the world's governments working together, as was proposed in the movie.
>>69267529
>MSF
Medicin Sans Frontieres? No doctors in the Avengers matey
>>69267521
>As a trap
You have these supersoldiers at your command but instead of using them to kill the avengers, you just use them as bait.
LEGIT.
BRAVO RUSSOS
>>69267607
The Accords would have the Avengers listen to over 100 different governments working together, not any one government. The Avengers should have to cooperate with international law just like any other superpower.
>>69267236
Zemo was using them to manipulate Captain America into going rogue and luring him to the Siberian outpost.
No idea.
She's British, bro.
Because he has no point if he doesn't kill Cap. Might as well go out with a bang.
>movie comes out, no one mentions anything about UN
>RLM does review and mentions UN
>everyone starts arguing using their argument
good job you fucking parrots
>>69267663
Not that MSF.
>>69267572
>this is what idiots believe
next you're going to say we should abolish law enforcers because there are no people adequate for that job
>>69267670
Zemo hates superhumans, he doesn't want any more of them around.
>>69267670
Zemo doesn't like super people.
>>69266081
It's okay when it is the ubermensch.
>>69267722
fuck you, I made treads about this before the RLM review came out
>>69267670
Zemo knew that
>Cap and Stark would team up to defeat the Winter Soldiers and that would unite the avengers again
>The Avengers beat both Loki's and Ultron's Army, pretty sure they'd beat the winter soldiers as well
He even said that in the movie fäm
>>69267670
>You have these supersoldiers at your command
no one could control them tho...it's like you didn't even watch the movie.
>>69267817
SUUUUUUUUUUURE you did.
>>69267784
>>69267775
Then why doesn't he use the supersoldiers to kill the Avengers and then kill the supersoldiers after they served that purpose?
It makes no sense because if he just wants the Avengers to fight each other, at least some of them are going to survive, right?
None of it made any sense. Stop defending this shit.
>>69266071
They even had Tony explain that the UN is bullshit because they can easily pass legislation that would allow them more leeway
>>69267825
>The Avengers beat both Loki's and Ultron's Army, pretty sure they'd beat the winter soldiers as well
Iron Man had problems dealing with just one of them.
Zemo could have literally killed all of them systematically if he didn't use bond villain tactics.
>>69267679
Yes cause the UN has a history of stopping real world atrocities even when they had the power to do so. They would have been constrained by bureaucracy listening to over 100 countries which would have been a detriment in a world where millions of lives are at danger in an event that last only a few hours.
>>69267898
>Then why doesn't he use the supersoldiers to kill the Avengers and then kill the supersoldiers after they served that purpose?
He says exactly why in the movie. You can always rebuild from an external attack, but falling apart from the inside will destroy the team permanently.
>>69266838
It also means they could act on their own without consequences. All they had to do was sign the accords and get the red tape out of the way.
This is so simple but I guess a retarded child like you needs it spelled out.
>>69267882
Dude, I even made threads about the accords before the movie came out and said that anyone who's opposed to them are literally implying they want people who take the law into their own hands.
But yea, you're right. RLM are the only ones who thought of this. Fucking retard.
>>69268045
It's about whether or not you think it's better to err on the side of not doing enough, or to err on the side of giving them too much power.
Remember the Justice Lords?
>>69266774
>>69267279
>idiots who have no idea what they're talking about
>>69268211
not the anon you're fighting with, but I bet captain was scared of another organization like hydra controlling the organization that would be controlling them. A legit argument.
>>69267236
>What was the point of the "there's more Winter Soldiers" plot when Zemo just kills them?
Bait for the heroes, but more importantly they were a red herring for the audience. We were supposed to focus on the blue packets of serum in the trunk and not think about the car crash itself.
No he wasn't. The Winter Soldier (the movie) was about how the in universe government was corrupt and couldn't be trusted with all their power. As a sequel to that its unjustifiable to try and let them manage more superhero shit. And what exactly would change if the Avengers were under government control? Literally nothing except the possibility for corruption, as Steve said they all have motives and as long as that's the case they cant be trusted to control the Avengers. They already try their hardest to prevent casualties, nothing would change. Steve was right but the movie is great for making each character have good motivations.
>>69267236
The extra Winter Soldiers were the driving force behind the airport fight, silly. Were you not paying any attention whatsoever? Zemo killed them because he hates Hydra as much as everyone else, knew the Avengers would simply defeat them, and in his own words getting them to kill each other was more effective.
>>69268053
Just because he says it in the movie doesn't make it any less ridiculous.
Option A: Kill them systematically.
Option B: Make a contrived plan that hinges on so many variables you might actually just kill yourself for even thinking this is a good idea, like for instance: Why does Iron Man, even after being confronted with the truth about the brainwashing (he's literally in the room with the people who got brainwashed), he still blames Bucky.
How did Zemo know that Iron Man would react like that? Why didn't Cap warn him about it? What if Cap did warn him about it would Zemo's plan still have worked?
It makes zero sense senpai. Stop it.
Zemo's plan was overly contrived and you know it.
Are we forgetting even Stark believed the Accords were stupid and was only playing ball because he felt challenging the U.N. would damage their reputation further? He had all intention of scurrying out of it after a few missions under the belt.
>>69268364
You could read the moral of TWS a pro-Accords, too.
Trusting SHIELD with all that power turned out to be a huge mistake. In-universe, who's to say the Avengers are any more trustworthy than SHIELD was? For all the public knows, they could all secretly be HYDRA.
>>69268409
>Why does Iron Man, even after being confronted with the truth about the brainwashing (he's literally in the room with the people who got brainwashed), he still blames Bucky.
Because he just saw a tape of Bucky murdering his parents!
Zemo is revenge-obsessed so he would expect anyone to react as he would, i.e. vengefully.
>>69268456
That's what any reasonable person would have done.
All Cap had to do was sign and do whatever the fuck he wanted anyway. Just like Tony.
Damn this movie is stupid.
>>69268409
>Why does Iron Man, even after being confronted with the truth about the brainwashing (he's literally in the room with the people who got brainwashed), he still blames Bucky.
Because people aren't rational. Tony's reaction was very natural.
>>69268138
Except you're only hindering them by having them regulated. They already had a history of fighting for the general welfare of the public even when the public turned against them(winter soldiers).
>>69268469
They are heroes who actually fight in the frontlines, particulary against insidious forces such as HYDRA.
>>69268557
So was SHIELD.
>>69268517
Cap would never compromise his morals because it's easier than fight for what he believes is right.
>>69268265
It was a legit argument when we were talking about a secretive spy agency like SHIELD with 3 heavily armed helicarriers.
The UN is a humanitarian workshop.
What, is hydra going to hijack their Cold War era APCs and food shipments?
>>69268469
They sort of stopped an alien invasion in front of everyone
>>69268469
Well as viewers we know that's not the case
>>69268610
>SHIELD
>frontlines
No. They were a shadowy international agency operating under a shadowy international council.
>>69268616
what does that have to do with control the avengers? Doesn't the accord just put a leash on the avengers? Hydra could be on the controlling edge of that leash without them knowing it (again), which is why captain said the safest hand is their own.
>>69268523
>Because people aren't rational. Tony's reaction was very natural.
No, it was not. It's only natural to react like that to vengeful people. Normal people would show at least a hint of empathy. If anything Iron Man would go after the man who ordered the hit on his parents. Not the brainwashed hitman.
It makes no sense. It's dumb, and people who are defending this shit should remove themselves from the gene pool as soon as possible.
>>69268469
well how do you know that the UN isnt full of HYDRA people? Tony stark crated Ultorn and completely fucked everything up and he spends this whole movie over reacting to his failures
>>69265580
>Well, we have to kill Bucky
>What?
>Sorry Steve, we have this pixelated as fuck black and white pic, Bucky has to be put down
later
>Fuck you Steve, we couldn't summarize execute Bucky
>There's something going on
Later
>Well, you all have to be brought in and put in a cell
>Tony, this is all the schemes of a guy who tries to awake 6 super crazy hydra soldiers, all these is just a way to keep us distracted
>Lol no, you're going to fall
Yep, Tony is always right
>>69268613
Which hilariously means hospitalizing squad of German police (many of whom will probably never work again because of their injuries) who were just doing their jobs.
>>69268613
>Hitler would never compromise his morals because it's easier than fight for what he believes is right.
FTFY
It's a stupid line of reasoning and anyone who doesn't see this is a moron.
>>69268409
They made the "Tony making a new invention just to show he's still really bitter about his parents' death" thing just to set this part up and explain why he reacted the way he did
What I don't understand is why does Cap defend Bucky so fucking much to the point he almost kills Iron Man because of that. Nigga even told Cap he doesn't think he's worth all of this
>>69265580
>THE GOVERNMENT THAT WANTED TO NUKE NEW YORK WAS RIGHT
Tony was a moron who let guilt cloud his judgment
>>69266071
>Guy who created Abomination
>Trying to school others
Fuck this hypocrital shit
The world council tried to nuke NY
The higher ups created the 3 hellcarriers full of weapons
Sorry, but Cap was right, they can only trust in themselves, as a group
>>69268793
Hitler can be applied to anything.
>>69268771
>>69268827
Lets not forget, Mr Ross (whatever his title was) LITERALLY FUCKING CREATED ABOMINATION
he was solely responsible for the fight in Incredible Hulk destroying part of New York
>>69268622
And HYDRA's whole M.O. under SHIELD was to manufacture conflicts so that they could "save" the day.
>>69268751
The Accords are a limitation on power, not an expansion. If the Avengers don't want to do something, they can retire.
>>69266081
>uz killt mah son when you dropped dat city ohn him. He was a good boy who din du nuffin. U killt hiem mr. Stahk suh.
Yeah, no.
>>69268740
He had just watched footage of the guy standing next to him brutally murder his parents. We've already established his parents death has emotionally unhinged him.
>>69268893
No he didn't, you dumbass.
The Abomination was created by the Leader, when Blonsky disobeyed orders from Ross.
Because your a such a normalfag. tony is such a normalfag that he have to act more on his impulse than what is right. The part of his appeal to viewers is his impulsive personality which normies like. I bet a lot of normies were rooting on tony because they are emotionally impulsive like him.
>>69268886
Stupid cop out argument from someone who thinks an indefensible line of reasoning is somehow moral.
>Hitler would have signed the accords.
See, it doesn't work. Fucking retard.
>>69268913
>If the Avengers don't want to do something, they can retire
Then the world gets destroyed. How many times does captain america have to save the world for people to trust him?
>>69268827
Not the same government.
Also:
>The people responsible for Sokovia and South Africa should be allowed to do whatever they want
>>69268975
And he knew he was brainwashed and someone told Bucky to do that. Why doesn't he want to know who ordered the hit on his parents?????
Stop defending this stupid shit.
>>69268717
>>69268751
In order for HYDRA to "control the UN" they'd have to control all of its member states. That's even more difficult considering all their records were released and their command structure basically obliterated.
They inserted themselves in SHIELD over several generations, good luck starting from scratch in France, Great Britain and China simultaneously.
Also the Avengers could simply refuse to carry out an action, which the UN would be powerless to enforce unless the US government itself turned against the Avengers.
Basically the whole world that the Avengers are trying to defend would have to turn against them before they would be prevented from saving the world.
>>69265580
>lets give up our powers and get bitch boy'd around by the man
fuck no he wasn't right. Cap was right about being against it, 100%.
what Cap was wrong about, that has nothing to do with the Accords is defending Bucky.
>>69269029
Saving the world should never give anyone authority over everyone else on the planet.
>>69266081
>I should be allowed to do whatever I want
He didn't say that, he said that if he sees an injust situation and he can act and do right, he has the responsibility to act and do right. He didn't say he can go on a killing spree or rape or whatever.
>>69269076
you gotta be really retarded if you think hydra is dead
>>69269086
In this scenario, Cap IS "the Man".
Are you saying we should bend over and accept whatever the Man says?
>>69269091
all the Avengers use their authority to do is help save people
>>69269086
Read the thread next time, no one's going to hold your hand you retarded nigger.
>>69269076
>In order for HYDRA to "control the UN" they'd have to control all of its member states.
which they would have no problem doing
>>69265580
He was wrong, he was fighting under false facts and the final fight was him throwing a hissyfit over "muh mommy".
>>69269086
>what Cap was wrong about, that has nothing to do with the Accords is defending Bucky.
He only wanted for Bucky a fair trial, they wanted to kill him, he tried to avoid that, see how chill he was when they were brought in and Bucky was just in a cell waiting for his trial? Government wanted a massacre and Cap wanted to give his friend a fair trial, nothing more.
>>69269176
>implying i said any of that
Reading comprehension is hard huh.
>>69269066
You don't think seeing your parents die brutally might make someone emotional and upset enough to not care or be able to think logically right that moment?
So many people have done dumb shit in the heat of the moment I don't know why you can't see that.
>>69269200
Allegedly, so did SHIELD and every government ever.
>>69269269
I bet bin Laden also deserved a fair trial you libcuck.
>>69269091
They are not asking for authority to do what they want because they saved the world, they are asking for authority TO save the world
>>69269221
>>69269076
It would be easier for them to take over the Avengers directly.
>>69269066
Mate if you watched your parents be murdered and the guy that did it is right there then there's a good chance you are going to lose your shit, especially if you are already unhinged about the exact situation you had just watched.
Now when you or I lose our shit it's ine thing, when you lose it while wearing a fucking death suit things start going wrong. Nobody is defending what Tony did but it is easy to understand why. You can see the regret felt by Tony after he's had his head knocked about.
I know emotion is a difficult thing for spergs to understand, but do try.
>>69269367
yes, using the accords
>>69269307
the avengers is like 7 people. But no, william hurt and a bunch of third world countries are more trustworthy. Fuck you
>>69269358
Was Bin Laden brainwashed to react to certain words and become a cold killing machine without conscience? no, he did all from free will, Bucky didn't.
>>69269365
By any means they deem necessary. Letting any entity do "whatever is necessary" to protect people never goes well.
>RLM's review
looks like they found /tv/, boys
>>69269221
Based on what exactly?
They had to insert themselves into SHIELD at its inception, good luck with the Chinese government.
And assuming they did take over all governments everywhere, sounds like the world isn't really worth saving if it literally can't function without a dozen or so superhumans dictating everything.
>>69269469
>Was Bin Laden brainwashed to react to certain words and become a cold killing machine without conscience?
yes
>>69269435
No, without the Accords.
With the Accords, the governments of over 100 countries would have to be compromised; at that point, HYDRA already would rule the world.
Meanwhile, you have the Avengers - a team of like 6 people who, without the Accords, have authority that overrides everyone else on Earth.
Taking over the latter would be MUCH easier.
>>69269413
This. If Bucky hadn't been standing right there and Steve had had some time to calm Tony down and let him think things through, he probably would have been the logical guy a lot of people around here expect him to be and done the right thing.
>>69269469
He was brainwashed by Islam. He had no free will. Bucky good boy, he dindu nothin.
>>69269566
>the governments of over 100 countries would have to be compromised
breh, they already are
>>69269066
Tony never had the opportunity to say how much his parents meant to him or to make amends with his dad and always resented the fact that they were murdered before he got to do that. This all adds up to the guilt he's been feeling since Iron Man 3. He even wants to invent this new memory rewriting shit to erase those memories from haunting him, it's something he's been dealing with all his life
And turns out the guy who has caused all that shit to him is right by his side, and his biggest Superhero ally, who he always felt he could trust even if he disagreed with him, always knew that and refused to tell him. Of course he'd get mad. And he just happened to be wearing the Iron Man suit when he saw the footage
>>69269640
By a single entity?
>>69269436
They could just sign the accords, still do whatever they wanted, and get an angry letter from the UN every now and then whenever there was collateral damage.
That's literally how these things work.
Cap didn't know this because he's been out of the geopolitical loop for too long.
Also the UN isn't just third world nations. It's actually controlled by the most powerful nations on earth.
You dumb nigger faggot.
>>69269488
>By any means they deem necessary
Not really, they never put innocent lives below the mission, they actually put innocent lives above anything, they're aren't omnipotent though.
See, the world council wanted to nuke NY, Avengers helped with the evacuation and stopping the invasion, only 74 lives were lost, but they did everything they could.
Same with Washington, same with Sokovia, same with Wakanda, if Wanda didn't send Crossbones to blow up 20 metes in up more way people would have died, it there wasn't a right answer, she just took the least worse.
The thing is that till this movie the Avengers have seen that every time the suits are in charge secret agendas appear and that saving lives isn't primary.
>>69269066
>soldiers are never responsible, only the people in charge
Do you forget when we nuked two cities (not to mention firebombed several more) full of women and children because of the actions of a few generals?
And I'm betting they were a hell of a lot more innocent than dindu Bucky.
>>69269719
>and get an angry letter from the UN every now and then whenever there was collateral damage.
I think you mean get arrested, tried and sent to the raft or become criminals.
>>69269719
If they signed the accords then they wouldnt have found zemo and he would have continued to frame the winter solider and try to break up the Avenegrs another way. Cap did the most sensible thing he could
>>69269436
Half a dozen people are way easier to go rogue than every government on Earth at the same time.
>>69267236
>What was the point of the "there's more Winter Soldiers" plot when Zemo just kills them?
Gives incentive for Cap to take him down ASAP. They're even stronger than Bucky and I got the impression that Bucky was stronger than both Cap and T'Challa. They're also stealth masters, so yeah, they could take down entire countries.
>>69269901
Only if they didn't sign the accords.
Signing the accords meant the UN picking up the tab and not much else.
It tickles me when people think the UN has anymore power than that.
>>69269901
Who is going to actually arrest them or stop them if none of the Avengers had signed?
You think they could have arrested people after the chase scene if War Machine hadn't been helping the cops?
>>69270004
get tickled all you want you stupid RLM parrot, I'm going by the rules established in the movie, not applying it to real world circumstances. If they sign the accords and cause damage, the UN isn't going to go "oh well, no big deal, you were just doing what we told you do to," they would use them as a scapegoat. That's probably most of the reason capt didn't want to sign.
>>69270028
Good question.
>>69269413
The first thing I'd want to know is why they were murdered and not just immediately go kill the murderer. Especially knowing he was brainwashed and most likely ordered to kill his parents, I'd rather find out who ordered him to do so and maybe kill the actual people who are accountable.
People defending this shit are literally retarded. You'd kill the only link you have to getting actual revenge for your parents death.
For all Tony knows the actual murderer(s) would still be running around laughing at how stupid he is for killing the one man who could have ratted them out.
BRAVO
Both parts were right and wrong
Though the power to act shouldn't be in the hands of governments, there's so much important things for them than actual lives. Sign the accords and you're now an army instead of firefighters
>>69270216
>People defending this shit are literally retarded.
ditto. Your argument is really stupid.
>>69270028
>Who is going to actually arrest them or stop them if none of the Avengers had signed?
Thunderbolts: The movie
They already have Abomination and others under custody, put a bomb in their brains and force them to be your personal army
>>69269989
Pretty sure Cap is stronger than Bucky.
>>69270308
Your argument is literally >muh feelings.
My argument is that he wouldn't have gotten revenge if he killed Bucky. He'd just killed the hitman, not the people who ordered the hit.
It's retarded.
>>69270343
Whenever they go head to head Bucky seems to have the strength edge, that metal arm bro is just brutal. Cap does have the shield though, and that thing is useful. Either way, 5 people even stronger and more deadly than him is a true terror to behold.
>>69270208
>bringing RLM into this when no one mentioned them
Oh I get it, you're another redditard kiddie.
You can leave now, grownups are taking.
>>69270216
>Not knowing Tony has daddy issues
>Not knowing Tony is the most emotional and visceral of them
It's like you didn't watch the movies, Tony always makes the bad moves, he wasn't thinking logically like you and I would do *tips fedora*, he was just letting his anger get the best of him
>>69270216
Serious question: have you never gotten angry? Emotions cloud judgement. You do not act rationally.
Everyone understands that Tony acted stupidly, Tony understands it as well. But in the moment, you do not have that sort of control.
It's like speaking to a fucking robot, though I think they're more advanced than you now.
>>69270425
yes, humans are retarded and they do irrational things. He doesn't care if bucky was brainwashed or now, he literally killed his mother. That's all he cares about.
>>69270256
They were always an army.
They should be working the US military.
Cap was right to fuck off to Wakanda if he didn't think he should even be subject to American laws.
I would have signed the accords, and at the first sign of the higher ups having a secret agenda and disregarding human lives for power/resources or whatever I'd have totally tell them to go fuck themselves and leave...but then again I don't have principles like Cap
>>69270460
>dat sidestep though
>bringing reddit into this when no one mentioned them
Oh I get it, you're another kiddie.
You can leave now, grownups are taking.
>>69270216
It's obvious Tony does not make decisions based on logic. He blames himself, not the triggerman, when his weapons are used by terrorists in Iron Man 1 because he feels bad about it, yet he blames the the triggerman instead of the puppeteers in Civil War because he feels angry about it.
>>69270638
>I'd have totally tell them to go fuck themselves and leave
you mean get arrested and sent to the raft. No big deal though
>>69270615
>Army: People organized for land warfare
That's not what the Avengers do
>you made him a fugitive
>to cover your failures
>and protect your career
>don't ever speak to me as your daughter again
fucking ross still being an asshole
>>69270803
don't let autism get the best of you m8
>>69270256
>the power to act shouldn't be in the hands of governments
That's the only place the power to act SHOULD be, as long as the governments themselves are responsible and accountable to their own people. The problem is that those governments are susceptible to bureaucracy and corruption like from HYDRA. Cap points this out out but he doesn't really back up very well; that is, arguments can be made, but he doesn't really make them, he just says "nuh uh" to Tony.
>>69270331
>Strap bombs to villains and force them to be your contingency plan against superheroes
Anon, Suicide Squad comes out in a few months.
>>69270699
This. You can also add in IronMan 3 when he blew up all his suits and had heart surgery out of nowhere. Tony is just an unreasonable, emotionally unstable, asshat
>>69270343
They're both enhanced with super soldier serums, even though the serums are of different brands so I don't know which has the superior version. Bucky's edge is his arm. The only edge Cap might have is that he's a better tactician or has a better fighting technique. That's subjective.
>>69270760
Cap totally owned the raft though, and he is way weaker than Hulk. Thor, Vision, etc
Also I assume that the rest of heroes would do the same if they see that they're working for power hunger suits
I also assume that to arrest me they have to use another super powered being and if they don't have those (because they also defected because they have morals) then can't arrest me
That's what I'd have done, talk to the rest of the Avengers and tell them what's up, I'll work with the government as long as the government has lives as their number one priority, and I think that the rest of the Avengers think the same, am I wrong?
>>69270987
That said, his current emotional swing to "I feel bad about what I let myself do with no oversight, so now we should have oversight" happens to coincide with a *very* compelling argument for regulation. It's just that Tony is less doing it for its merits and more for his own guilt.
>>69271080
>Cap totally owned the raft though
come on though, lets be honest. Plot owned the raft.
>>69271257
Raft only has humans working, we saw Cap do the same shit in First Avenger and Winter Soldier, he can defeat an army of humans
Also he only needs to reach the cells, once there he has all the need he can get
>>69265580
He was only right about himself. TONY STARK needs oversight but the rest of the Avengers do fine. It''s only tony who goes out and fights on 3 hours of sleep and vodka for breakfast and doesn't know when to fucking stop.
>>69266071
> become a slave to the government
> you can totally trust them
“Hay Avengers, go kill those Palestinian kids throwing rocks at Jews.”
“No Avengers, you can’t save that town from a natural disaster because they didn’t vote for me, go wax my Lear jet instead.”
>>69265580
literally "muh feels" the character
cap's and the other heros rights ended where tony's feelings began.
IM= SJW/extreme left
Bucky= far right who's done some shit things but doesn't deserve what he's going to get
Cap= average citizen who's getting sick of the lefts bullshit.
Anyone else disappointed by that final fight? I was hoping that those scenes were shot for the trailer only and that Iron Man would help Bucky and Steve against the five Winter Soldiers. Seems silly for Iron Man to come around only to immediately go back again.
>>69271484
I actually was surprised and happy that they didn't use the winter soldiers, it was a nice twist
>>69271394
THIS
H
I
S
The only capeshit I've ever watched was The Incredible Hulk because Norton is great, but from what I've seen here and from what others have told me it seems like Captain America wants a bit of personal responsibility and common sense when it comes to being a superhero and Iron Man wants to be a complete faggot and told what he can and cannot do.
Am I wrong here or right or close or what?
>>69265580
Tony "Everyone Else Should Pay For My Mistakes" Stark
Can someone explain how regulation of the avengers would work? They are fucking super heroes and the most powerful force on the planet.
If they submit to regulation, it shows good faith and that they probably never needed to be regulated in the first place
If they were immoral and reckless, they would do whatever they wanted knowing nothing could stop them
Also the avengers itself is already a structured group that makes major decisions by committee, regulation would just take the decision making out of the hands of the avengers, and hand it to bureaucrats that know fucknothing about a superhero's job. Not to mention bureaucrats are easily corrupted with political and personal motives. And who regulates the regulators?
So prior restraint is stupid. The US doesn't even do that for it's own armed forces because it's too slow. One man, the president, has immediate control over the military and only need approval from congress to declare war.
But, maybe, what the avengers are not fit to do is be their own judge. So instead of submitting themselves to be regulation and approval, they could submit themselves to investigation, fair trail, and prosecution if they ever fucked up.
>>69271484
It changed from a question of ideology to a personal matter. In the airport fight, nobody wanted anyone to be seriously hurt or killed other than Black Panther wanting Bucky dead. Cap got over that issue when he went to Siberia.
But Tony wanted Bucky beaten or killed when he found out he killed his parents and Steve kept that from him.
Can we all agree none of this shit would've happened if Thor was there?
>UN tries to make him sign
>I'm an alien, bitch.
>Bucky tries to escape
>Lightning hammer hits his arm
>GG
>Airport scene
>"Super evil soldiers are happenning."
>"Let me check this out"
>Gets to base before Zemo could because flying shit
>Destroys it in a few lightning strikes
>Zemo arrives to crater
>>69271080
>>69270638
This is probably the "best" answer, sign, work with them, trust is what they do is right, but if they don't, you're in your right to go against them.
You have free will, ultimately is your choice to work for a corrupt power or not, and when you're as powerful as an Avenger your opinion and voice actually matters
>>69266298
>>They can't and won't ever imprison you
Except as we saw, they can and will imprison you, so signing the accord doesn't mean shit.
"Sorry Captain America, according the Segovia Accords section #GD4554F, paragraph #654FD654, you "triggered" that pre-op tranny across the street when you punched that bad guy and you'll have to go to prison."
>>69271625
pretty accurate
>>69271683
cap literally says that, talking about how governments have agendas and agendas change
>>69271683
When police officers shoot people, even if there's absolutely no question about it being justified (like, say, a bank robber firing on the police first), there's a hearing. They get put on leave. They're held accountable. They answer to the city/state. If someone dies, someone investigates.
That's what the Accords want. Because in Lagos, people died and there was nothing anyone could do to even *ask* if it was justified, other than the perpetrator's own word.
Whether the Accords would be effective, or if they would allow more people to be killed when the Avengers cannot respond promptly to threats, are another matter.
>>69271484
>scene made only for the trailer and not actually in the movie
Now really, how many times has this actually ever happened.
>>69271939
Wasn't Crossbones the one who blew up himself? didn't Wanda save a whole market by taking the explosion away and a matter of miliseconds?
What people don't seem to realize was that the accords was literally just for publicity. The Avengers would've done whatever they wanted mainly cause no one could tell them otherwise.
BW even said it was more of a PR stunt than anything.
Look at it his way
Don't sign the accords->Vigilante
Sign the accords->Do what you want->They tell you to do something you don't want->You do it->Vigilante
It's not like there's a council that would talk down Captain America.
>>69271840
hulk could open that can in like 30 seconds though
>>69272064
yes and yes
>>69272031
quite often.
>>69272064
Crossbones wouldn't have sudoku'd had Cap and his team not interfered.
I liked the movie, but what exactly were the consequences of it? Somebody should've bit the dust. Martin Sheen is talking shit on the villain for failing, and he goes, "Oh, did I?"
Yes, you did. All you accomplished was crippling Rhodes and getting Tony to piss off in compound somewhere until the next Avengers movie. Bucky goes back into stasis like nothing ever happened, the end.
Stark should've been killed in this movie.
>>69272120
when cap walks out of the shadows when he's breaking his friends out, I was kinda hoping hulk would have stepped out right behind him. Would have made the raft more credible.
>>69272064
>save a whole market
just the people immediately around him, but she transferred those people killed to the people in the building killed.
>>69272064
Absolutely. As viewers privy to what happened, we know Wanda prevented even more death from happening than did, and that it was Crossbones who triggered the explosion.
But the world doesn't necessarily know that. And the families of the dead and wounded deserve the right to an investigation. If justice is served, Wanda will be exonerated from any wrongdoing.
>>69272176
Then he would've escaped with the chemical weapon and killed even more people
>>69271600
>it was a nice twist
Only if you didn't see the trailers.
>>69270693
>taking
>>69266071
>take orders from the same group that gives a voice to internet feminists who got triggered from videogames
No thanks m8. I don't want Vision spiriting me away to jail because I called some chick a cunt online. The UN is shit.
>>69272332
The victims' families should still be allowed to gang rape her though.
That should help ease her conscience.
>>69272432
You mean the fighter between Cap, Bucky and Ironman, I assumed that would take part after fighting the super soldiers.
>>69271840
Is Carl Drogo going to do a prison break next movie and rescue the imprisoned Avengers?
>>69272470
You're shit.
>>69272336
Exactly. That's what Cap explains to Wanda when she was stressing over the incident. Had they not shown up, worse things would have happened.
Tony is having the same guilt trip as Wanda, but instead of learning to deal with it, the egomaniac that he is decides to put everyone in check.
>>69269224
That's normal human reaction.
>>69265580
>letting the government cuck you out of saving people
>>69272336
Then they should've routed them to somewhere else before going in to corner the heavily armed and dangerous bioterrorists. Anywhere else but a fucking crowded civilian center. Sure, Crossbones was the one that did the killing, but don't act as though the Avengers had absolutely no fault. For a team that wants to act independently, they should at least be responsible for planning a course of action that eliminates civilian casualties.
This movie was good, but could have been amazing if it wasn't for Marvel being Marvel.
If Rhodes died because of Vision, then that would've made the movie great. It would be somewhat symbolic of the self-defeating nature of Team Tony's ideas, and how he's caused the Avengers to collapse from the inside.
And if Tony died at the end? When he, by all rights, should've been dead? It made sense for him to die, not only would all the bad guys be defeated, but his heart got destroyed. He should be dead.
And finally, of course Captain America was right. He just saved the world from a Government-created purge, why the fuck would you ever go through that, then decide to submit to a group that could easily be controlled by a group like Hydra again?
Finally, it's insane the guy who created Abomination, and killed thousands of people in a city-wide battle with the Hulk, AND tried to nuke New York City, is criticizing the Avengers for a death toll in the hundreds at most. If they didn't do anything, the whole world was going to be destroyed, but no, a few people died in the process of saving the world, so we have to control you now.
You know Captain is right when they quote his comic speech at Carter's funeral.
>Giving my freedom to the guys who have been fucking things up and ignoring human lives for 10 movies
Nope
But again, this seems like a lose/lose situation
>>69266896
Shut up /pol
Crossbones was pretty badass. Marvel needs more threatening villians like him, but they just kill everybody besides Loki off
So was Howard Stark a Soviet spy? I can't think of any other reason he would instantly know it was Bucky killing him, and why he had the Super Winter Soldier serum with him.
>>69272802
That wasnt his heart. In iron man 3 he got the thing taken out of his chest so that cirlce was just powering his suit
>>69272836
>Crossbones was pretty badass
Agreed, there was real weight behind his movements and you really felt the power behind his blows.
>>69272654
Actually no, he was just trying to cover their asses legally. Cap's little pep talk does nothing to change the fact that people should still be held accountable for killing other people.
Yes, even if they saved other people in the process. How would you feel knowing your family died in a NATO operation where they had to level a building?
Maybe you'd be cool with it but most of us would still want someone to take responsibility.
I think preventing a chemical attack would come as little comfort to you who just lost your loved ones.
>>69272767
The bad guys were the ones who went there on purpose, exactly to do that, make the heroes focus on saving people instead of dealing with them
Also the Avengers aren't perfect beings able to do the perfect right choice at everymoment, they aren't omniscient nor omnipotent, mistakes are going to be made, but they're the best thing you have
>>69272915
>so that cirlce was just powering his suit
Speaking of this I was really glad that this film finally addressed how vulnerable the Iron Man suits are when you break these. I've been complaining about that for 5 goshdarn movies and they now finally commented on it that yes, break that and they're fucked.
>>69272869
He knew Bucky from WW2. Did you not see the first captain america?
>>69272915
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. That movie was pretty forgettable. And really didn't need to happen when you consider everything that happened in it was reversed so that this movie could happen.
>>69272802
>You know Captain is right when they quote his comic speech at Carter's funeral.
That speech is bullshit without context though, it also moral absolutism and assumes you're right and the rest is wrong
>>69272869
Howard knew Bucky. He was part of Cap's team in TFA.
The serum was something SHIELD was trying to develop for years after Cap's death. It's not unusual for him to have it.
>>69273041
Iron Man 3 made no sense and its the worst marvel universe movie by far
>>69273111
That title belongs to Thor: The Dark World.
>>69273017
>>69273083
Yeah, but Howard thought that Bucky was dead. And it was, what, 30 to 40 years since the last time they saw each other? It's crazy to me that he could recognize Bucky that fast. And why would he have the serum when he's going on vacation? That shit would be locked up in SHIELD HQ, wouldn't it?
>>69271413
How about an even more direct example?
"Hey Avengers who I can actually exert some control over, go find the Hulk and bring him in because I'm mad that he was giving my daughter the green D."
>>69273214
Thor 1 is worse, fight me
>>69273111
Iron Man 3 was the worst MCU movie, but as Lethal Weapon: Super Suits and Fire Powers, I dug it.
>>69273301
And imagine if the Sokovia Accords were in effect during the Hydra mess.
>"Hey, Captain, I know you're following this whole "Winter Soldier" thing, but the U.N. voted against taking action on it. You're gonna have to drop this and let the new Helicarriers take care of this matter instead, okay?"
>MIT dean has great idea for a hot-dog cooking device
>Can't wait to meet the great Tony Stark to pitch his groundbreaking discovery
>Tony just ignores him and moves on
Did Stark learn nothing from Iron Man 3? Just wait, in Iron Man 4 that guy is going to come back as a sausage-themed pyrotechnic supervillain.
>>69273451
I'm pretty sure this incident was the main reason why Cap was against the idea. If Winter Soldier hadn't happened, he'd probably be hesitant but still sign. But since he's been fucked over by the government before, he's dead set against it.
Weren't there villains aligned with Tony and Steve in the comics? I know Tony had at least a few. I think it could have been cool to have one or two.
>>69273474
kek. But to answer your question, no Tony never learns his lessons
>>69272529
Cap broke them out.
