Simply put, you have a low cinematic IQ, or some sort of Stockholm syndrome, from overexposure to bland, safe, PC and souless mass-produced blockbusters, which has conditioned you into accepting the absolute lowest-common denominator standards in filmmaking, writing and cinematography as somehow acceptable, when you should in fact feel nothing but contempt or disgust for any Kevin Feige-conveiced product.
Even strictly in the field of capeshit entertainment, where the bar has always been pretty low, since they're primarly a children media, the level of genuine quality and creative abilities (which comes from studios giving freedom to an auteur with a strong personality and vision towards the material) has kept dropping since the 90's.
When Raimi's Darkman/Spider-Man, Del Toro's Blade 2/Hellboy, Burton's Batman 2 or Bird's The Incredibles offered innovative and playful set pieces, meaningful and relevant themes, each with a very distinct, appropriate tone and truly cinematic aesthetics (simply compare the lighting or editing to today's equivalents), none of these qualities are to be found in Civil War or any of the previous MCU entries. This is why Edgar Wright got fired from Ant-Man. This is why Feige keeps hiring visionless point-and-shoot directors who come from TV or comedy, colorblind cinematographers and art/set design teams who seem to be in love with grey, sterile hangers for some unexplainable reason. Action scenes are now being conceived by CGI teams months before the movie begins shooting and all follow the exact same formula.
Even as a child, I couldn't imagine being dazzled or amused by those turds, as they're utterly devoid of any charm, colors, magic or imagination.
You do realise that they hire professionals to make films right?
People in capeshit have years of experience and expertise. They know what they're doing. They don't make bad films you silly little plebeian.
>>69226985
Batman returns is the second worst 90s batman movie.
>>69227098
>>69227098
Nigga I will cut you
>>69227098
If you're going to troll, go all in and call it the worst Batman.
Simply put you're still a fat manchild for churning out a pretentious essay comparing films that are all aimed at children
at least most mcu films, barring age of ultron, had coherent stories delivered by their simple and workmanlike cinematography
warner bros had a chance to prove to the world that the shared universe model could be compatible with actual artistic vision, but as beautiful as BvS was it was a disaster of storytelling, and at the end of the day if you can't use your pretty pictures to convey a story in a capeshit movie, you have failed. better luck in august
>>69227098
Fuck off /co/mblr
>>69227098
I agree, Batman Returns is garbage that gets praise for no reason.
>>69227237
This.
>>69227328
>gets praise for no reason.
>beautiful Christmas atmosphere that gives the movie a lot of spirit and personality, as with other Burton movies serves multiple purposes to make the movie more memorable (aesthetically snow in darkness looks amazing, thematically his movies are often about the darkness hiding behind a pretty surface, but also the opposite, emotionally movies set during Christmas seem to have deeper impact because we all share a connection and it brings up a lot of personal memories, etc)
>Bruce is just as scary and schizophrenic as the villains he's chasing, but it's shown through subtle moments, not spoonfed through dialogues like with Nolan's
>Gotham actually looks like a dark and unique city, just gorgeous art design and architecture work all around ('Fascist architecture meets World's fair architecture')
>All people involved at the top of their game: Elfman's iconic and poetic score, Czapsky's cinematography who brought the best out of Burton at that time (see also Edward Scissorhands and Ed Wood), Waters's batshit insane script
>actually takes a lot creative risks and mixes many different influences and styles, from German expressionist horror and grotesque to satirical comedy about politics (Shreck and Cobblepot) or feminism (Selina), supposed to be a kid's movie but ends up being a completely crazy movie about crazy people
>superb cast, Pfeiffer's disturbing and erotic Catwoman (compare to how bland Hathaway's was), Chris Walken, DeVito's hilariously gross yet really tragic Penguin (probably the most interesting capeshit villain in cinema), Keaton who may not have been the best Batman but is a really interesting Wayne
>>69226985
This is a beautiful post.
>>69227058
You're right, they know what they are doing, but no one is saying they are specifically 'bad'.
Theyre just bland, and devoid of any charm colours or imagination. :^)
>>69227058
>>69227974
Notice how the good/interesting capeshit filmmakers come from deeply visual genres (Raimi, Del Toro from horror, Burton and Bird from animation). They also seem to have a genuine love for the material, as it was part of the counter-culture when they grew up.
People like Nolan or Singer who come from solid neo-noir thrillers; while not visionary or creative have at the very least an elegant style of filmmaking and try to tell thematically meaningful stories, treat their characters/universes seriously and the audiences with respect. Marvel's directors come from television or shitty Apatow-tier comedy, which are really the bottom of the barrel.
>>69226985
While you're correct that those earlier capeshit films are vastly superior to the current crop I think it has more to do with the fact that they were aimed mainly at an american audience and not the terrible Chinese market
Blame China
>>69226985
While I respect your opinion, OP
BvS is still shit. It is a disgrace to all the superior DC movies. And even MoS
>tfw you constantly find yourself being amazed by older movies simply because they were filmed on real sets
>>69226985
>>69230818
completely gorgeous
>>69227237
While I don't disagree about your assement of pretentious essays, writing media off because it is "aimed for children" is a retarded mindset and destructive to culture as a whole. Quality and growth should be desired and expected in any form of human achievement, regardless of what market it was commercially targeted to.
>>69230818
this scene is especially powerful when you realize this is how Bruce Wayne celebrates Christmas: sitting in the dark waiting for the bat signal to turn on.
How many hours do you think he was there waiting? Like maybe he woke up, had a late breakfast, then sat down in his study and waited all day for the signal to call him.
>>69230818
What if someone noticed Bruce Wayne's giant bat-signal-receiving-system?
>>69230818
more ingenious than all of Nolan's filmography combined
where were you defending batman 2 when everyone would shit on it and won that razzie
>>69230818
>that eyebrow raise
impressive
>>69231103
I always thought the same thing.
Made a cool shot, though.
>>69230818
Every Christmas, Alfred holds a great dinner for Bruce, they enjoy some roasts and Christmas pudding despite being alone while the rest of the city is bustling with families spending time together on a joyous night.
Bruce thanks Alfred for dinner and spends the rest of the night in the study in the dark. He imagines the Christmas dinners he would have as a child in the manor, unwrapping presents in the very same room he is now, a Christmas tree near the fireplace and unwrapping presents while his parents watch. His father used to sit on the chair - the same chair Bruce is sitting now trying to remember the small memories of his past. And then the Bat signal appears. That's powerful stuff.
>>69227098
Truth. Right after '89.
PENGUIN 2016
MAKE GOTHAM GREAT AGAIN
>>69230818
he was an awful bruce wayne/batman, but that scene shows the insanity where the character lives
>>69230818
>>69231050
The atmosphere in this movie was unbelievable. The gothic tones were comfy as fuck and the shots were absolutely great
>>69231324
Damn son
>>69231664
>that scene shows the insanity where the character lives
I think the Penguin bouncing around in a tiny Batmobile replica does that perfectly.
>>69231664
Michelle pfeiffer is the definitive catwoman
>>69231664
He played an eccentric billionaire waaay better that BateMan
>>69227058
>Implying that they don't specifically hire people who write the film in such a way as to be marketable to the greatest amount of people.
Film is dead. It has lost its soul, and it's all about how much money you can make, and how many sequels you can produce now
>>69231664
>he was an awful bruce wayne/batman
'no'
>>69226985
this tbhfam
>>69231664
>>69231835
I feel keaton was a great batman but a poor Bruce Wayne whilst Bale was a great Bruce Wayne but a poor batman.
>>69231806
she diserved a movie
>>69227098
THIS IS SO *TRUE.
*(not)
Touring the devastation..........assessing the damage. Upstanding mayor stuff.
>>69231995
She was suppose to... that was why she was in the movie. The catwoman movie was meant for her, but never happened because.....
hollywood?
>>69227252
BVS has a bunch of big problems, but at least if I'd paid money to see it in the theater I wouldn't have felt gypped. Wonder Woman is pretty useless, the transition from Batman trying to kill Superman to him joining his cause is way too fast and not nearly momentous enough, the list goes on. But after all that, you have to admit it creates some fun stuff. I actually really enjoyed the mood in Batman's dreams. We got to see this version of Batman is far from a perfect person; rather, he's driven by fear at his core.
Something like BVS, even with all its plot holes and problems, to me, beats an Avengers product by quite a bit. With Avengers it's like you can just take transformers, turn the robots into human-sized superior beings, and it's the same shit. I simply can't sit through it.
Similar assessment applies to The Force Awakens. It just hurts to watch a pretty fun movie redone, minus prime Harrison Ford, and a lot of the other stuff that made it so good. Take the cantina scene for instance. In ANH it was so great. All the town's rabble gathered together. Even early on in attack of the clones when Obi Wan and Anakin are looking for the changling in the club, there was a distinct atmosphere. In TFA I couldn't even tell what the place was supposed to feel like; it was completely devoid of any kind of emotion. Totally boring.
>>69231901
>>69231963
he did a Bruce Wayne like a Batman without mask instead a playboy.
He never saw El Zorro.
>>69232071
>It's a penguin tries to drown all the babies in gotham episode
>>69231995
Waters wrote Batman Returns and wrote a great (smart and batshine insane satire on consumerism, feminism, superheroes and capitalism) script for a Catwoman movie for Pfeiffer, which Burton was supposed to direct.
>Daniel Waters's draft of Catwoman picks up after the events of BATMAN RETURNS. Dropping the Gotham City setting, Waters has moved Selina Kyle to Oasisburg, a neo-Vegas hellhole where people drive golf carts instead of cars and the city has more tourists than residents. Selina lives with her mother, working as a wage slave at Frank's Fun Palace, the tackiest of the city's casinos. Most significantly though, Selina has no memory of her life as Catwoman.
>When we first see Selina, she's in a "self-help" meeting conducted by Penelope Snuggle, a "post-feminist" and author of The Catwoman Complex. It's Snuggle's conviction that women in power are the most dangerous people in the world and they all need to embrace the typical subservient role that society has set down for them. Before Selina can escape, Oasisburg's protective superteam, the Cult of Good, interrupts the meeting. Led by Captain God, the Cult of Good is a collection of superhero clichés that make fighting crime a spectator sport. The women in the support group fawn like little girls over the superheroes while Selina tries desperately to ignore it all.
>>69232117
>Yet, Selina can't run away from her surroundings or her past. A lone black cat follows her and a strange old hag sets up a hut outside Selina's mother's house. When the cat leads Selina to the Cult of Good's hideout and she learns they're actually evil, it isn't long before Catwoman is reborn.
>And while all of this may seem a little typical (if somewhat bizarre) that's merely the first act in one of the weirdest scripts (comic book adaptation or otherwise) ever written. Before the script is even halfway through, the idea of Catwoman has infected almost the entire female population of Oasisburg, causing them to create their own Catwoman costumes and storm out in the streets creating mayhem as they rail against their male dominated society.
>Screenwriter Waters worked hard in BATMAN RETURNS to make Catwoman more dynamic than just another antagonist for Batman to knock around. By starting her off as a timid almost self-loathing woman Waters turned her into the proverbial mouse that roared when she donned the cat ears and picked up the whip. And here he takes the idea of her as the ultimate symbol of female empowerment to the nth degree. Rather than just stop with Catwoman as a symbol Waters goes on to show the danger of an unfocused revolution. As the reluctant cause of the uprising, Catwoman has to come to grips in the end that she has a responsibility as a role model.
>Through all the layers Waters keeps the story moving. In addition to having to deal with the not-so-good Cult of Good, Selina also has two love interests: Brock Leviathan and Lewis Lane, one of whom is almost certainly Captain God. There are several funny and self-reflexive moments where Selina tries to play detective when talking to the men only to end up more confused than she was before.
>>69226985
This is literally the worst attempt at trolling ever. Civil War has plenty of faults and you mention none of them, it's almost as though you haven't even seen it....
>>69232152
>The script continues to build to the inevitable conclusion between the Cult of Good and Catwoman and her army of Catwomen. When it's time, Waters's doesn't skimp on the action but he never lets it get in the way of the characters.
>While Waters's draft of Catwoman breaks the cardinal rule of following the comic book, it does respect the continuity created by BATMAN RETURNS. But even more, the script shrewdly uses the idea of the character as a springboard to bigger concepts. What ends up being so impressive is how much Waters goes for and actually achieves. The script celebrates and criticizes the male ego, the feminist movement, superheroes and the clichés of most typical action films. It's no surprise that the studio passed on this draft. It's too cerebral, surreal and smart to spend $100 million dollars on.
http://www.scifiscripts.com/scripts/catwoman.txt
>>69231963
>yfw Brucekino is already here
>it's a dc circle jerk to make up for the shitfest that was bvs
>mfw generations will look on the mcu with similar affection
>28%
>>69227098
It's the only legitimately good comic book movie desu
>>69232114
>>69232264
It's great but batman has it beat simply because jack was a great joker
>>69232295
>lust for herring
10/10
>>69232182
>>69232238
Same ip, have a couole of You's
>>69232114
not all the babies
just the fucking white males.
>>69232295
Tl;dr?
>>69226985
Alright OP.
Justify Catwoman
>>69232360
tl;dr it's another shoah oy vey
>>69232182
I'm not OP, but maybe you'd appreciate the point he's made being put another way?
You know how when you were in middle school you were just starting to write sort of lengthy things? It was book "reports" for a while, but a some point everyone is supposed to shift to argumentation. You'd ask your teacher what you should write about. The teacher says it should be something whose answer isn't immediately obvious right away, something for which both sides have a point. Civil War is the easy argument. It's the 2+2 of movies.
>>69232351
Try again.
>>69226985
I've witnessed this with the /co/ crowd. You could draw something with a mouse in MSPaint and they'll be impressed by it, that's how low their standards are when they've been eating nothing but shit their whole lives.
Probably something similar happens if all you do is watch superhero blockbusters and whatnot.
>>69232360
>burton showed the penguin as herod
>>69232238
MCU has only few people comparable to golden age of capekino masters
Jon Favreau and Russo brothers
Favreau was ditched (his IM3 would probably be dope tbhfam), Russos are now the main guys projecting THE TRUE MCU VISION
I'd say everything is alright for Marvel now comparable to just few years ago.
>>69232351
Mfw DCucks damage control this hard
>>69232182
>>69232238
>>69226985
But muh """"""""fun""""""""!!
>>69227098
>Batman Returns: 6/10
>Batman: 4/10
>Batman Forever: 2/10
>Batman and Robin: 1/10
>>69232394
He didn't make a point. He made an argument as you said, but it was a terrible argument as it's clear he didn't even see the movie he was criticizing, otherwise he would have made a vastly different argument.
>>69232491
I have a bit of morbid curiosity that wants to know just how badly Schumacher would have fucked up Batman Triumphant.
>>69230818
wouldn't it be suspicious for Wayne to have bat signal reflectors that point the bat signal at his place every time they happen?
>yfw two good ones, Batman and Batman Returns
>yfw two bad ones, Batman Forever and Batman & Robin
>Batman is film, Batman Returns is kino
>Batman Forever is movie, Batman & Robin is flick
>yfw it's like a coin, it rhymes like a poetry
>>69226985
Cinema is still good. We dumb down, we lose our vision, we betray the audience, but we can rebuild. We can do better.
>>69227252
>coherent stories
The cry of the pleb.
>>69226985
This is sort of in line with how I view capeshit. Honestly though I don't think any capeshit can approach true art, it's the very definition of a popcorn genre. So while I have disdain for the massive franchising "cinematic universe" of Marvel, I think DC is being less respectful of auteur theory and more misguided in their trust in the director. If you want a huge franchise with a bunch of characters and dozens of movies, you hire journeyman directors and keep a consistent aesthetic. When Spiderman was independent under Raimi's hands, or Batman with Nolan, without any crossover from other major names, it was more acceptable to take those individual characters as that director's property. But now that you have shit like Batman vs Superman, Justice League, etc, DC producers would be wise to basically follow Marvel's example or they'll end up not with a thriving franchise, but a huge mess that occasionally produces interesting flicks.
>>69227058
>I didn't read OP's post so I'm gonna make a fool of myself.
>>69228831
Great post, even though I like Eagle vs Shark for some reason.
>>69232741
>>69232538
The idea is that you don't have to see the movie to know why it fails. It fails in that it's indistinguishable from other movies like it. I admit I haven't seen it, but as I've mentioned already in this thread, with a movie like the first Avengers, you just take out the superheroes and villains and put robots in and you've got Transformers pretty much. No weak human, but pretty much the same shit still.
>>69232871
The fact that so many people don't get the Martha scene even though it's not complex in any way just goes to show how much Marvel is damaging people's brains.
>>69230818
Holy shit, that dandy walk he does is insane genius I never even noticed that until my third looping, its like Keaton touched on his Wayne side being a complete imitation of aristocratic movement and action then becomes a different character as Batman of efficient masculinity and strength.
I mean I guess that is what the character IS but just that touch that goes just beyond mere show into utterly embodying this Bruce Wayne even when not seen.
>>69228831
Russo-era Marvel definitely seems to have abandoned aesthetics in favor of energy derived from movement and choreography. While that is a good quality to have, just look at the setting of the main set piece, an airport. It's the perfect metaphor for the entire franchise now. A bunch of colorful characters in front of a bland concrete background. This is the nature of a "cinematic universe", particularly a superhero one. All of these characters have their own unique aesthetic which could be explored, but because bringing multiple big names together sells more tickets, it's safer to simply put them on a blank slate stylistically and hope that the snappy action, dialogue and editing make up for the lack of cohesive visual/sensory identity. Snyder's failed attempt to do the opposite, however, seems to suggest there's no way for a soul to really exist in a large-scale franchise.
>Keaton hated superheroes and Batman
what now, DC kiddos?
>>69233028
I look forward to him being in Beetlejuice Goes Hawaiian
>>69232578
Part of me wishes we got Triumphant, then Year One after that bombed horribly. But the fact they were trying to get Nicholson back for flashbacks would have been awesome.
stop talking about capeshit you fucks
ENOUGH
Disney's accomplishment is they've realised people are literally retarded. Tim Burton put unbelievable effort into crafting something unique to look at, with a carefully constructed gothic atmosphere. Sam Raimi made his Spider-Man series as visually arresting as possible. The films were successful but not on those merits. The sense of feeling arising out of those films is coarse within most people, and what most people want is an entertaining product to consume, and it's easy enough to produce that for them, and once you've established brand loyalty, you've got them forever.
The pathetic fuckheads are the ones who try and sit on a high horse arguing that these films are somehow quality filmmaking. They're shit, pure and simple, and that's what people want -- shit. You are fine to gobble up your shit, but please, for the love of Jesus, do not try and tell me it's gourmet shit and act like everyone who doesn't eat shit is pretentious and everyone who enjoys a different flavour of shit is a pleb. You're a shit-eater if you enjoy Marvel, and that's that.
>>69232238
>mfw generations will look on the mcu with similar affection
That's sad.
>>69232945
Explain exactly what the Martha scene means.
>>69233028
So does Alan Moore and he wrote some of the best superhero and Batman stories.
btw your beloved Evans has never hidden his disdain for comic books
>>69233569
Batman gets triggered by hearing his mother's name out of nowhere, it drops his guard long enough to realize that Superman is just a guy, not a God.
>>69226985
Burton's batman films feel the most in line with the comics and the cartoon because it understood that batman isn't something that you take seriously and that it works best as some kind of semi-fantasy alice in wonderland thing. Batman Returns took that a step further by showing that batman is often the least compelling thing about the whole universe and that the villains are really the stars of the show and batman is just a foil for them to be all kooky and strange against.
That said both batman '89 and batman returns has issues and burton while a visonary director has his faults.
>>69233630
Pretty weak understanding of it tbhwyf. Certainly not you to make self-important cuckposts about.
For one thing, your explanation in no way makes the plot pivot justifiable or believable.
For another, the intention was about a lot more than "dropping his guard" and there's a lot more implications than "Superman is just a guy, not a God." In fact the idea that the point is that he is humanized shows exactly how fucking poorly portrayed the logical through line of the movie is, and exactly how much the Flash tease ruined the movie. It's not about Superman being humanized to Batman, it's about Batman realizing he's become the monster that would likely cause the nightmare future that he was so obsessed with trying to prevent. Because Zack shit the bed so much in trying to portray this, it ended up seeming so stupid that people had to try and justify it like you just did.
I'm done with this Mickey Mouse-tier soap opera drama. It doesn't help either that all the fight scenes are edited by a teenager with Tourette's and Parkinson's, it's as if they want to distract the audience from how shoddy everything looks by waving a flashlight on their face. I couldn't give a damn about any of these sterile excuses for characters. During the airport scene all the artificially-inflated conflict devolved into a child playing with one toy in each hand and bashing them together.
It's riddled with sophomoric and shallow pseudo-political ponderings that are thrown out the window when the quiptastic action starts. They completely disregard for the umpteenth time the collateral damage while they're having fun showcasing their flashy abilities.
The third act pretends to get serious when in reality it turns into a cheap heartstring manipulation revolving around "why didn't you tell me Cap waaa".
This part completely disregards the fact that Stark knows all too well that brainwashing and mental manipulation is a thing, let's not forget that he has witnessed it firsthand with Banner. There's no excuse for him to have such a sudden change of heart other than to extend the conflict for another 15 minutes of mindless violence, and leave the manchildren with the impression that they've just witnessed an intricate revenge tragedy.
All smoke and mirrors, the constant quipping is an effective tool to cloud a fanboy's mind and judgement.
Finally, what's left is an entire team of "world-class" heroes that got fooled by a man wearing a Bucky mask. Not to mention that the villain's stale trope was better executed 19 years ago when Scream 2 came out, ironically, a film satirizing this cliché.
If you don't think this is cartoonish and laughable you might be too young to post on this site.
Never again.
