>You're free to speculate as you wish about the philosophical and allegorical meaning of the film—and such speculation is one indication that it has succeeded in gripping the audience at a deep level—but I don't want to spell out a verbal road map for 2001 that every viewer will feel obligated to pursue or else fear he's missed the point.
-Kubrick
>>68919730
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>>68919956
Much has been discussed about Snyder's Superman and his Nietzschean ponderings, as can be seen in the posts above. Now it's time to discuss the relationship that these themes share with Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey.
>>68992181
The Star-Child
Friedrich Nietzsche's philosophical tract Thus Spoke Zarathustra, about the potential of mankind, is directly referenced by the use of Richard Strauss's musical piece of the same name. Nietzsche writes that man is a bridge between the ape and the Übermensch.
>Jor-El: Born on Krypton and raised on Earth, you had the best of both and were meant to be the bridge between two worlds.
In an interview in the New York Times, Kubrick gave credence to interpretations of 2001 based on Zarathustra when he said: "Somebody said man is the missing link between primitive apes and civilized human beings. You might say that is inherent in the story too. We are semicivilized, capable of cooperation and affection, but needing some sort of transfiguration into a higher form of life. Man is really in a very unstable condition." Moreover, in the chapter Of the Three Metamorphoses, Nietzsche identifies the child as the last step before the Uberman (after the camel and the lion), lending further support to this interpretation in light of the 'star-child' who appears in the final scenes of the movie.
In contrast, notice how Snyder depicts the roles reversed, Earth is the young one, ressembling the baby inside an uterus, ready for the next evolutionary step.
>Jor-El: You will give the people of Earth an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you, they will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun, Kal. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders.
>>68992242
Birth
2001 has also been described as an allegory of human conception, birth and death.In part, this can be seen through the final moments of the film, which are defined by the image of the "star child", an in utero fetus that draws on the work of Lennart Nilsson. The star child signifies a "great new beginning", and is depicted naked and ungirded, but with its eyes wide open.
New Zealand journalist Scott MacLeod sees parallels between the spaceship's journey and the physical act of conception. We have the long, bulb-headed spaceship as a sperm, and the destination planet Jupiter (or the monolith floating near it) as the egg, and the meeting of the two as the trigger for the growth of a new race of man (the "star child"). The lengthy pyrotechnic light show witnessed by David Bowman, which has puzzled many reviewers, is seen by MacLeod as Kubrick's attempt at visually depicting the moment of conception, when the "star child" comes into being.
Taking the allegory further, MacLeod argues that the final scenes in which Bowman appears to see a rapidly ageing version of himself through a "time warp" is actually Bowman witnessing the withering and death of his own species. The old race of man is about to be replaced by the "star child", which was conceived by the meeting of the spaceship and Jupiter. MacLeod also sees irony in man as a creator (of HAL) on the brink of being usurped by his own creation. By destroying HAL, man symbolically rejects his role as creator and steps back from the brink of his own destruction.
Similarly, in his book, The Making of Kubrick's 2001, author Jerome Agel puts forward the interpretation that Discovery One represents both a body (with vertebrae) and a sperm cell, with Bowman being the "life" in the cell which is passed on. In this interpretation, Jupiter represents both a female and an ovum.
>transfiguration
the narrative of bvs is a transformation, as all the elements come together to a point of change where something new is made out of what was before
clark as a symbol of hope reached a new place although it remains to be seen if it will change even more
>>68992561
A similar thesis of Man of Steel representing an allegory of Superman's birth can be consulted here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p5-14rjWUM
Monolith
As with many elements of the film, the iconic monolith has been subject to countless interpretations, including religious, alchemical,[21] historical, and evolutionary. To some extent, the very way in which it appears and is presented allows the viewer to project onto it all manner of ideas relating to the film. The Monolith in the movie seems to represent and even trigger epic transitions in the history of human evolution, evolution of man from ape-like beings to civilised men, hence the odyssey of mankind.
Snyder presents a twisted vision of the Monolith by comparing it with the Kryptonian ship, which was buried on ice for 20,000 years. Similarly, the first Monolith depicted in Kubrick’s first act is often interpreted as a beacon left by superior beings to trigger man’s evolution.
Snyder’s Kryptonian ship contains a database with thousands of planets, and Lex uses this knowledge to create a deformity of man, born from hatred.
>The desecration without name.
Furthermore, instead of triggering man’s new beginning, Lex also uses the ship to bring upon Earth anti-life, a being capable of triggering man’s end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-MUzvASr8s
This board would be a lot better if you redirected all the energy and time you devoted on this to a movie not based on picture books meant for children.
Ultimately, Batman v Superman Dawn of Justice can be said to be a work that represents America's struggle with immigration. It's release perfectly timed considering the increased tension among our minorities, the rhetoric involved keeping such minorities out of our country and the oppression those who make it into our countries face.
The battle between the two mythical titans Superman and Batman is as much a battle for what each see as a moral superiority within their own crime fighting ways, as it is a fight for the soul of America, a country built on immigration. Superman, the other, the alien, is the face of the Immigrant. Batman, the rich billionaire playboy, is the collected id of all those who seek to oppose and vilify the immigrant. As Batman rationalizes his hate by continuously denigrating his opponents lack of humanity, we see a reflection of our people who continually seek to degrade and dehumanize all manners of races who wish to make their home here, in order to justify their hate. But make no mistake, Dawn of Justice makes it stance clear. It is very much pro immigration. Just as it knows how our country was built on such a foundation and how its future shall continue to be, we see in Superman, the other, act as the symbol of these immigrants, as he is what is keeping the world of this film together, just as our country is kept together by the strong work that millions of immigrants have been putting in for decades and decades.
In reconciling this more than hopeful message with the dark and depressing tone that the film carries, I find myself reminded of a quote from the great author J.G. Ballard:
>'I wanted to rub the human race in its own vomit, and force it to look in the mirror.'
In the end, perhaps this is Snyder's goal. To indict this country for it's sins.
>>68992181
Holy shit
>>68992376
i don't think it's about immigration but how to reconcile duality ie all the parallels
what we see from superman is a righteous act out of love that cuts through this tension
i think the meaning of the movie is in understanding the doomsday creature itself, as it is a clear analogue for nuclear weaponry and unfettered power
furthermore none of what you're saying indicates to me a wholesale pro immigrant stance, but rather that the individual has to act for the greater good even if it's against his own people ie zod
>>68992785
I like interpreting and analyzing movies, not only capeshit in particular, this one hasn't been discussed to death yet. Plus, everyone online seems to be more focused on complaining about how bad it was instead of analyzing it, so all this is new for everyone.
On another note, I'll rewatch Eyes Wide Shut and see what else I can find, there's already a connection with Shostakovich's Jazz Suite No. 2, so there's got to be more out there. There's a lot of Nietzsche in that film.
>>68992661
I watched that Man of Steel video earlier, and it was pretty eye opening.
Especially the part about the world engine expanding through the earth, making the earth suffer in order for Superman to be born, akin to a live birth.
Fuck.
![1461107889493[3].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/m2t2MfT.jpg "1461107889493[3].jpg")
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>>68926481
>A reading from the Acts of Man of Steel
>Scene 2:13: Selected passages
>3 And I heard a loud voice from the cinema saying, "Look! Snyder's dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and Snyder himself will be with them and be their saviour.
>4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more repetitive or safe or cheap comedy or quips, for the old order of Marvel movies has passed away."
>13 And so they hated him, and persecuted him. The critics crucified him and threw rotten tomatoes at him.
>14 But he persevered and gained strength from the audience, and so we will persevere.
>15 And he stands by the right side of the spirit of Kino, and draws inspiration from it, and so will his followers.
>22 During the filming of the port battle at Batman v Superman, Snyder was found wandering along the port.
>23 In one of such instances he walked on water while carrying an IMAX camera on one hand, which greatly terrified his cast and crew at that time.
>24 Affleck, out of fear, shouted "Snyder, if it is you, tell me to come to the water!"
>25 "Come". Snyder said.
>26 Affleck stepped on the water and walked for a few feet but then sank. He cried out "Snyder, hast thou forsaken me? Save me, oh dear brother!"
>27 Immediately Snyder reached out his hand and caught him.
>28 Snyder exclaimed, "Bin Muhammad Afflecki, why did you doubt?"
>29 And so the heretic one vowed to spread the word.
>>68993910
amen
>>68992919
/pol/ here, it's illegal immigration you fuck. Supes is fine, he assimilated to American culture. I won't defend this interpretation, film goes far and away from the theme of immigration.
Could you imagine being so personally invested in capeshit that you had to delude yourself into believing in some grandiose structure in BvS?
I'm thankful I cant.
you guys have taken this meme way too far
>>68996164
it was a never meme
you just never believed
Where this train is going...we won't need roads.
Does everyone have a copy of this book?
>>68992181
To add a bit more, the AI inside the Kryptonian ship and HAL can also be compared.
HAL is portrayed as a tool created by man that turns against him. And one of 2001's central themes is the necessity of man to liberate himself from the shackles of technology in order to evolve.
Snyder's AI in contrast, but equally as menacing is an AI that doesn't question man's judgement and acquiesces to his bidding. The AI is completely aware that creating Doomsday shouldn't be allowed, and it's a crime of nature. Here's the entire interaction between Luthor and the AI before Doomsday's conception begins.
>ALEXANDER LUTHOR, YOUR SECURITY OVERRIDE HAS BEEN ACCEPTED. GENESIS CHAMBER READY TO ANALYZE GENETIC SAMPLE.
>ACKNOWLEDGING PRESENCE OF GENETIC MATERIAL...
>ANALYZING...
>I'VE IDENTIFIED THE HOST AS...GENERAL ZOD OF KANDOR.
>ACKNOWLEDGING PRESENCE OF FOREIGN GENETIC MATERIAL.
>ANALYZING...
>You flew too close to the Sun. Now look at you.
ADVISING, ACTION FORBIDDEN. IT HAS BEEN DECREED BY THE COUNCIL OF KRYPTON THAT NONE WOULD EVER AGAIN GIVE LIFE TO A DEFORMITY SO HATEFUL TO SIGHT AND MEMORY: THE DESECRATION WITHOUT NAME.
>And where is the Council of Krypton?
>DESTROYED, SIR.
>Then proceed.
>VERY WELL. PREPARING CHRYSALIS AND COMMENCING METAMORPHOSIS.
>>68996784
As HAL, the Kryptonian AI demonstrates that it possesses awareness of self-awareness.
In chapter XXVII "On Identity and Diversity" of Locke's An Essay Concerning Human Understanding (1689) he conceptualized consciousness as the repeated self-identification of oneself through which moral responsibility could be attributed to the subject—and therefore punishment and guiltiness justified, as critics such as Nietzsche would point out, affirming "...the psychology of conscience is not 'the voice of God in man'; it is the instinct of cruelty ... expressed, for the first time, as one of the oldest and most indispensable elements in the foundation of culture.
In short, the Kryptonian ship is aware that what Lex is instructing it to do is morally wrong, but decides by its own will not to intervene in spite of this moral awareness.
where's the visual guide creator when you need him?
>>68996164
This. At first it was funny but now it's just sad.
>>68996836
You are weak, Son of El, unsure of yourself. The fact that you possess a sense of morality, and we do not, gives us an evolutionary advantage. And if history has proven anything...
...It is that evolution always wins.
>>68999625
so Kal proved the Kryptonians wrong, lack of morality isn't the next step of evolution
on another note, do Kryptonians have sex?
>>68996164
nah it's really amusing how delusional some people are
>>69001140
>do Kryptonians have sex?
recreationally? i don't see why not
Kubrick was a soulless hack who did as much damage to the film industry as star wars and specialized in cold robotic characters and making pictures.
>>68992181
>>68996164
>All that symbolism
Yeah, but 2001 evokes emotion, whereas BvS is a fucking flatline the whole time.
>>68996365
I thinl I couldt actually make 5 more pages withthe nietzsche and kubrick stuff
Maybe I will just post the base psd files so someone makes new ones.
Or just write whatevershit you want on them and I will compile it on new pages
>>69003654
No one cares.
>>69003654
I think you mean 27%, anon.
>>69003388
do whatever your heart tells you is right
>>68992181
Excellent thesis but I noticed BvS did not contain a sufficient amount of quips.
>>68992785
It really don't matter what the source material is. A movie with a lot of effor put into it deserves to be dissected and explored.
That said, I'm not reading all this shit. This guy should be put all this in a thesis or somewhere more appropriate, not on a fast paced anonymous image board.
>>68996784
The computer on the kryptonian ship wasn't true AI, it's just a program parroting the information in its system.
It doesn't "believe" or "feel" that what lex wants to do is wrong, it's just repeating the councils decree.
What's interesting is it has no restrictions enforced by the council/government. It's simply a tool and those with it can use it however they like, making them completely responsible not the programmer. Says a lot about kryptonian society.
>>69003654
Caring about critics, the public opinion or box office performance is the death of proper discussion on this board
Zack "Modern Kubrick" Snyder
>>68992785
Comic book movies are the biggest thing on the planet right now.
Sure, Star Wars is coming back to beat them, but 1 movie a year aint enough and plus its so elevated in status that its beyond a movie.
Capeshit is the fabric of society rn and is worth analyizing for its messages
Why do Marvelfags have to shit on every DC thread? Don't you have better thing to do?
And they post the only meme they have ever produced, they don't realise that if they keep posting it it will become stale. That being said I expect them to reply to this post with more of that said meme because they are triggerd by this post.
>>69004452
What if the free will is just a toolthe machine is abusing for its own benefit? How do youknow the machine its not pretending to be permisive or lacking morals and not just letting Lex go with what he believes is his plan?
After all we dont know what kindof information the ship gives to Lex andhow that info modified his will.
Is God's free will a trap to force us to do whatever he wants on his divine plan or actual free will? How could there be omniscience if he doesnt know what will we do because free will make us unpredictable? How can possible exist a divine design?
>>69004511
I don't care about critics or PO, it was a hack of a movie. I think Wall-e has better symbolism and cinematography and darker elements that has more weight and gravitas.
I like Snyder and Suckerpunch because I do meditative imagery like that when listening to music as well and understood what the plot was, nothing really, but it meant more to me then.... WHATEVER BvS was pretending to do.
Which seemed more setting up Justice League.
They should have just DONE justice league. It felt like a long trailer for Justice League, and that shilling deserves to be BOO'd
tl;dr
BvS felt like a video game that advertises other video games with a hackneyed story to boot. And then Martha/doomsday ending was the coup de grâce.
What do we know about Zack Snyder?
1. Objectivist
2. Conservative
3. Pro-Religion
4. Nietzchian
Impressive
Gentlemen...
We've reached the postmeme.
Congratulations.
Who knew "Batman v Superman: A Zack Snyder Joint" could contain this much depth?
It really his is own Watchmen
>>69005229
Nietzschian goes against the other 3 so we can call him a pseudo intellectual with an edgy videogame-like style
>tl;dr
it's all about illiminati religion of becoming god through satan. in sort of mobius strip kind of way: creator of this reality was satan in reality where godhood was made.
>>68992181
Wow you DCucks really did go over the cliff. There's no saving you faggots anymore.
No one can be this fucking delusional and in denial about a stupid capeshit movie.
>>69005397
Maybe he just likes making dialectic films
>>69006114
I've noticed that a recurring theme in BvS is assimilation and appropriation of culture.
>>68992181
>Choosing a few select frames that barely resemble 2001
Dont fucking compare Hack Snyder to Kubrick, they arent in the same league or sport. Enjoy sucking Snyders cock dry.
>>69005077
Not a marvel fag and dont know what meme they post but i think the DC guys are going a little overboard comparing BVS to 2001. It wasn't horrible imo but it certainly is not good enough to be compared
>>68992181
>overthinking a piece of shit this much
1. Forced, clumsy symbolism that managed to be more hamfisted than Cliffnotes.
2. Horrible special effects and cinematography.
3. It was too easy to follow, while trying too hard to be deep and complex. And despite the fact that it should've been a kid's movie, it was not aimed at children.
>>69007263
Stops Doomsday*
>>69007263
It's easy to follow, it just doesn't make sense because it's poorly-written schlock
Jesus fucking Christ. This is fucking sad and pathetic. I can write a whole thesis on the next shit I take too.
Now that the word kino is a meme used literally on bad movies like the seagalkino thing Im glad we created a superior term worth the visionary talents of Zack Snyder.
Give me Superkino or give me death.
Any other Superkino like 2001 or BvS?
>>68992919
>America, a country built on immigration.
Overwhelmingly White immigration.
>In the end, perhaps this is Snyder's goal. To indict this country for it's sins.
Your utilization of religious nomenclature exposes The Left's true nature:
"Militant secularism is itself a modernized variant of the Abrahamic meta-meme, on its Anglo-Protestant, radical democratic taxonomic branch, whose specific tradition is anti-traditionalism. The clamorous atheism of The God Delusion represents a protective feint, and a consistent upgrade of religious reformation, guided by a spirit of progressive enthusiasm that trumps empiricism and reason, whilst exemplifying an irritable dogmatism that rivals anything to be found in earlier God-themed strains."
[...]
"Whatever one’s opinion on the respective scientific merits of human biological diversity or uniformity, it is surely beyond contention that the latter assumption, alone, is tolerated. Even if progressive-universalistic beliefs about human nature are true, they are not held because they are true, or arrived at through any process that passes the laugh test for critical scientific rationality. They are received as religious tenets, with all of the passionate intensity that characterizes essential items of faith, and to question them is not a matter of scientific inaccuracy, but of what we now call political incorrectness, and once knew as heresy."
"To sustain this transcendent moral posture in relation to racism is no more rational than subscription to the doctrine of original sin, of which it is, in any case, the unmistakable modern substitute."
-Nick Land
>>69007822
Is BvS conservative-core?
sigh
>>69008438
cum
>>69008531
niggercum
>>69009194
niggerfaggot
>>69005517
>dude civil war is great bro just turn your brain off lmao
>>69007822
sounds a lot like what zizek says about about atheism and christianity as well
>>69010744
Zizek is a meme philosopher like Land who has been a shitlord lately. Nick Land was once a Marxist so Zizek becoming a neoreactionary Sith Lord seems possible.
>>69007822
nice, but it probably belongs in >>>/pol/
>>68992181
If the story was actually good, BvS could've been a capekino masterpiece, pham
>>69010667
Marvel
>Boring grey tone through out the whole movie
>Over use of quirky scenes
>No subtle references
DC
>Shit story
>Subtle reference
>Overuse of CGI
>Colorful imagery
There is only one solution for capeshit fans
Marvel + DC
>>69011114
>Shit story
for simpletons
op, next time remember to to include
>no consolewars
>no memes
>>69011151
>WHY'D YOU SAY THAT NAME? WHY'D YOU SAY THAT NAME?
>MMMMM BOYS!
>THE PART OF THE CITY THEY'RE FIGHTING IN IS UNOCCUPIED
>*43 lines of dialogue*
>"In the latest news, Superman arrived at the forum discussing the existence of Superman. It randomly exploded, leaving Superman as the only survivor. Superman totally wasn't involved, it was a bomb under the wheelchair of some guy. How do we know this? Reasons."
>Random scene with Superman and his dead father with absolutely no transition or indication that this wasn't a real, breathing man he was talking to
>Batman: I hated you because there was a 1% chance you could do bad things, but now I'm trusting you because Lex Luthor manipulated you into attempting to kill me. Because your mother's name is Martha.
>>69011062
she needs her own movie :^)
>>69010578
Jesus, DCucks have literally lost thier minds
>>69012067
>WHY'D YOU SAY THAT NAME? WHY'D YOU SAY THAT NAME?
Not understanding the point of this scene
>MMMMM BOYS!
Agreed that was stupid
>THE PART OF THE CITY THEY'RE FIGHTING IN IS UNOCCUPIED
After the mos backlash, thier hand was forced. Don't understand how that's a criticism though
>*43 lines of dialogue*
Point?
>"In the latest news, Superman arrived at the forum discussing the existence of Superman. It randomly exploded, leaving Superman as the only survivor. Superman totally wasn't involved, it was a bomb under the wheelchair of some guy. How do we know this? Reasons."
Again what's your point?
>Random scene with Superman and his dead father with absolutely no transition or indication that this wasn't a real, breathing man he was talking to
You would have to be stupid to think pa Kent was still alive
>Batman: I hated you because there was a 1% chance you could do bad things, but now I'm trusting you because Lex Luthor manipulated you into attempting to kill me. Because your mother's name is Martha.
He doesn't state this. Bats has mommy issues and his reasons for fighting superman were valid
>>69012579
I get the point of the Martha scene, it's just that the logic they used to get to that point was overwhelmingly stupid. If Superman antagonizing Batman into a boring 5 minute fight made any sense, or Batman completely ignoring his entire driving reasoning for hating Superman at the exact moment Superman proved him right made any sense, it could've been a clever, well done scene.
And obviously Pa Kent isn't alive but if you haven't seen Man of Steel you would not have known this. It's sloppy storytelling.
The point of me pointing out the news report was that if that part of the story had made sense, there would've been some people believing Superman was responsible for the explosion, which would've taken the movie into a completely different direction. But they knew he wasn't somehow even though there were people who hated him. Piss poor storytelling.
>>69012579
Also Snyder was trying to make this Jesus allegory for Superman and only gave him 43 lines of dialogue. The man's mission on Earth was spreading the word of God. And a big part of Superman's character is that he's supposed to be motivating people into being better, which would've played well into the whole hamfisted Jesus thing if Snyder could draw more depth from the story of Jesus than "he came to save us" and "he was resurrected".
But instead we see Superman slow-motion save a person, get touched by a crowd of Mexicans while looking morose, and flying off.
>>69012819
It did make sense. It was rushed sure, but it did make sense.
Well the fact he's not shown anywhere in the entire movie and just pops out on top of a mountain to give Clark some fatherly advice would be sufficient clue that pa Kent is most likely a figment
They know it was a suicide attempt that's it. Supermans involvement, his inaction to prevent it and the possible fact that superman isn't liked enough for someone to commit this attack are all left for the audience to ponder. Nothing wrong with the way it was handled imo.
Superman was criminally downgraded in favour of bats, you'll get no arguments there.
>>69013029
Those saviour scenes captured the godhead figure superman had become without needing any dialogue. I felt superman was uncomfortable with this whole aspect.
Much of the movie is left for audience interpretation and personally I think that's a good thing.
>>69013631
this movie made me play with the thought that jesus himself was the then version of some hero character and all the apocrypha are the fanfics and weird interpretations of the character that didn't make it.
i really think of the allusions as more of a frame to look through, snyder definitely flips certain things while touching on a sort the universal concept of death and resurrection. the hero with a thousand faces connection affirms this
>>69014510
You can't change the concept of death, atleast not from a human point of understanding. It is the end of all things; a point of no return.
Superman doesn't die for it to even challenge that concept
