For a "realistic" fantasy setting has religion very little influence in Westeros.
that's because george r r "I suck cocks" martin is a neckbeard faggot who doesn't know anything about the middle ages or the fantasy genre.
americans can't write good fantasy, just face it
Did you watch last season?
>>68963457
>cartoonishly evil ''religion''
>randomly makes an appearance after 4 seasons of nothing
>only exists as a political tool for the main characters
>>68963422
At what point did you mistake it for an accurate portrayal of medieval times?
Every character behaves exactly like a greedy selfish modern Westerner. Cersei is practically the ideal modern feminist. Nobody actually takes any "oaths" or "house" dynasties seriously, except Eddard of course, look what happened to him.
what? all the books, especially A Feast for Crows mention religion in literally every chapter
there's the rise of the Red God in Westeros
there's the religious extremism of the Sparrows who feel betrayed by their leaders
there's the mystical old gods that is constantly in the minds of the Stark family
Arya is an assassin in a religious institution
just fuck off
>>68963422
It isn't a realistic fantasy setting, you unenlightened troglodite
>>68963422
UNITED KINGDOM
>>68963456
Blame DnD for this. The books are filled with religion.
>>68963587
This, a lot of people behaved very honourably during the middle ages, there were a lot of prince john-esque steal the throne, murder the family type people, but a lot more acted very upright and piously. Look at the crusades, thousands of men left everything to battle fro God and to save the eastern christians from the heathens with no promise of reward except in heaven.
>>68963422
that's because jesus still hasn't ressurected. but today is orthodox easter and GRMM being a crypto-orthodox, we all know what will happen in todays episode.
>For a realistic setting GoT has massive populations even though their farming production rate is literally medieval
>For a realistic setting GoT kingdoms are about the size of Europe but don't suffer any cultural or communication problems within and even outside their borders
>For a realistic setting Westeros is about the length of South America yet remains a unified state for thousands of years
>For a realistic setting it also has very little technological advancement
Maegor gelded the Seventites a few hundred years ago. The war's effect on the Riverlands and the subsequent famine in the capital has seen a resurgence in religion culminating with a takeover of the Clergy by the new movement and the remilitersation of the faith.
>>68963646
>with no promise of reward
you got that one wrong
>>68963744
Enlighten me
Read the books.
Don't read the books. They are also shit.
>>68963422
You must've missed that part where every character references one of the gods every time they open their mouths.
>>68963646
>Look at the crusades
If only you could have been there, anon.
>>68964224
Glorious, those men had purpose.
>>68964224
>arrows piercing chain mail
whew lad
>>68963626
I love how every GoT thread on /tv/ the books are mentioned. Why would you assume he's talking about the books on this board?
>>68964450
about half the threads are actually about the books. It's been like this since forever
>>68964370
>what is a long bow
>>68963422
clearly you didn't read the books. It isnt in the show cus, oh i dont know, its boring as fuck.
MALAZAN
A
L
A
Z
A
N
>>68964545
an overhyped weapon not often or ever used by Arabs
>>68964545
>>68964791
Longbows have just reached katanas in meme status at this fucking point
>>68963422
>religion very little influence in Westeros.
You do realize they have an entire plot arc about how the Faith of the Seven is evangelizing Westeros with violence right?
>>68963541
>cartoonishly evil
How are they cartoonishly evil? They feed the poor. They tend to the sick. Yeah they trashed some brothels, mutilated some homosexuals, and abuse the nobility. Big fucking deal.
>>68963422
I just wish you could actually speak English, Ahmed.
>>68965104
Why don't crossbows every get any love?
>OP is a fag
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIe0Q3PgcOw
>>68963723
The biggest head scratcher is how houses like Lannister, Arryn and Stark managed to rule for thousands of years the Starks being possibly the oldest not sure. The north has been ruled by the Starks for several thousand years, but like we saw they were pretty much destroyed in one generation, are we to believe that similar situations didn't happen over all those thousands of years?
>>68965104
My longbow was forged in a volcano and folded over ten thousand times. Its edge is so sharp, it can literally cut a man in twain.
>>68965773
>The north has been ruled by the Starks for several thousand years, but like we saw they were pretty much destroyed in one generation, are we to believe that similar situations didn't happen over all those thousands of years?
Kind of, yes. When the First Men invaded Westeros they eventually made a pact with the Children of the Forest and began worshipping the Old Gods. Even back then the Starks and the Boltons regularly killed eachother in disputes over who ruled the North. That's where the Boltons got their banner actually: Starks were known to be Worgs and claimed to be able to wear the "skins" of animals. The Boltons liked to flay Starks and wear the skins of Starks into battle.
This changed when the First Men invaded from Essos. The Boltons kowtowed to the Starks to face the invaders. Once their infighting (mostly) stopped the North was practically unassailable anyway. There wasn't anything up there worth trudging through all that snow and pissed off First Men to get either.
>>68963723
>remains a unified state for thousands of years
About 300, actually. Seven Kingdoms unified under Aegon I Targaryen. They weren't united before then.
>>68966161
>This changed when the First Men invaded from Essos.
Shit, sorry, I meant to say "when the Andals invaded from Essos."
It's been an awfully long time since I read LOTR, but how much influence does 'religion' really have in that, for comparison? I don't even really remember gods being mentioned in it.
>>68966276
Read the silmarillion for the theology of middle earth. Religion has a FUCKLOAD of influence, but Tolkien likes subtlety. He reduces LotR to just good vs evil to give commentary and insight into everything else
>>68963422
What? Its gods that and gods this all the time
>>68966364
>Read the silmarillion
Ehhhh, nah. But thanks for the info.
>>68966529
Cool then start from the top in their wiki:
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Eru_Il%C3%BAvatar
That's the ultimate god of middle earth, work down from there/
>>68966471
He means American Christianity.
>>68965239
They are kind of a caricature of communist religious fundamentalism
>>68964545
The Longbow is one of the most overrated weapon. The English have used it massively and were trampled into the ground by the French (!)
>>68963422
>Not realistic fantasy, because little focus on religion.
>>68963541
>cartoonishly evil
>fighting against the corruption in kings landing
Pick one
>>68966933
Well, he's talking about the show only, which is markedly less subtle. They do bust in to brothels and kill that one gay dude. They're pretty pushy-shovey, too, clearly prepared to threaten violence at very little provocation. They also haven't really been shown tackling 'corruption' in any concrete sense, just pursuing radically conservative social issues (sodomy, fornication).Like the Tea Party, their rhetoric focuses on economic populism but their actions in power focus far more on reactionary social campaigning.
>>68966364
LotR is practically Christian. I'm sure Tolkien came up with some bullshit but the Christian subtext is why LotR doesn't need religion to make sense.
Same with Game of Thrones, except it's the modern Christian-atheist contradiction that pervades everything. All the characters are atheist
>>68963456
>americans can't write good fantasy, just face it
But all good fantasies are written by americans.
>>68963587
But Rob acted like selfish shit too and got killed for that.
>>68964224
At some point you just wanted to go homeland you left 30 years ago
Didn't they emprison a queen for religion?
>>68967310
>All the characters are atheist
Melly's an atheist? The Night's Watch, who take their vows under the Seven, are atheists? Who accommodate Jon's desire to take his oaths under the Old Gods? C'mon.
>>68965773
Starks have almost been wiped out before - the story of Bael the Bard goes into that.
But don't forget winterfell Starks are just the main branch, there's cadet branches like the Karstarks and Brandon and Benjen removed themselves from the Stark offspring pool. If Brandon had survived then his children would be immediate heirs and Ned's would be insurance, if Benjen hadn't fucked off to the NW he would have insurance heirs.
They're in an unusual position currently.
>>68967645
> Benjen ?
Hes alive ?
>>68967692
Who knows. But whether he's alive or dead isn't relevant to the point I'm making.
>>68967602
The Night's Watch are all there to escape death sentences, that is made explicitly clear. This is the level of cynicism that everyone in Westeros treats religion.
You can choose to think Jon is a true believer if you want, he certainly personifies the honest hero, but nevertheless gets himself into a very powerful position.
>>68967835
>The Night's Watch are all there to escape death sentences, that is made explicitly clear.
Irrelevant.
>>68967835
>You can choose to think Jon is a true believer if you want
More like, you can stop imagining you're right by default and that any old bullshit you type throws a reverse burden of proof on whoever reads it.
>>68963541
>>randomly makes an appearance after 4 seasons of nothing
Again, blame DnD. In the books religion was always important, and the line we see here was built since book 2.
>>68963764
raiding and pillaging of cities/towns/countryside after battles won. Just like every other war. The crusades were no different.
>>68967140
>feeding the poor
>hurting the rich
>conservative
pick one
>>68968566
>social
>economic
I already picked one.
>>68964224
>King Baldwin ordered the relic of the True Cross to be raised in front of the troops. The King, whose teenage body was already ravaged by aggressive leprosy, was helped from his horse and dropped to his knees before the cross. He prayed to God for victory and rose to his feet to cheers from his army
>King Baldwin's victory was total. He had utterly destroyed the invasion force and had captured Saladin's baggage train.
>you will never fight gloriously for the Leper King
>he will never order the relic of the True Cross be raised in front of his army
>you will never help your leper riddled teenage king down from his horse and kneel in prayer before the True Cross
>you will never totally slaughter and annihilate the mongrel horde
>>68968105
>More like, you can stop imagining you're right by default and that any old bullshit you type throws a reverse burden of proof on whoever reads it.
oh i am laffin
>>68966933
in the show they do whatever they want with hardly any evidence
>this guy is gay his fucking squire saw his birthmark!
>also the queen definitely knew he was gay because i say so!
>case closed boys. pack it up
>>68967645
According to the story of Bael the Bard, the Starks where wiped out. The last Stark heir, a girl, is knocked up by Bael and given a son, who he later fights and kills. Are we to assume that the Starks we knew and loved weren't the original Starks, but a "cadet branch" or descended from second or third sons, who were brought in and given Winterfell after the main line died out?
>>68969064
>I felt in that moment I would live to be a hundred. Now I know I shall not see thirty. None of us know our end, really, or what hand will guide us there. A king may move a man, a father may claim a son, but that man can also move himself, and only then does that man truly begin his own game. Remember that howsoever you are played or by whom, your soul is in your keeping alone, even though those who presume to play you be kings or men of power. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus," or that virtue was not convenient at the time. This will not suffice. Remember that.
>tfw Ridley Scott will never direct anything GoT related
>>68966798
>>shitpost
It's ISIS-like fundamentalism you fuckchild. Piety does not equal communism
>>68963456
>showfag detected
The books show the influence of religion much more than the show ever did.
Don't equate a show that's created by shameless pandering sell-offs to it's far superior source material.
>>68963422
Bait thread? Stannis is dead, Emilia Clarke
is a very beautiful woman and talanted actress, Tyrion is azor ahai, Bran is cuter now than he was in season 1, Cersei did everything for love, sand snakes best characters and did nothing wrong.
>>68969318
>evidence
>in a medieval fantasy setting
ever heard of a mock trial? dumbass american cunt
>>68969383
Technically since she was unmarried her son inherits the stark name and the stark line continued despite the child being a wildling son as well.
Plus there's the theory Bael was descended from a stark further back as well but that's just a very loose theory someone put together.
>>68970088
You probably mean a show trial. And I'm not sure what you're actually saying: They convict people on highly shaky grounds, but we can't judge them for that because medieval fantasy? Yeah, nah.
>>68963422
>How to recognize a showfag
lul
>>68970042
>is a very beautiful woman
She is, but she got way too fat. She was a qt in S01
>>68969989
>>68970261
I haven't seen the show, but the first book is philistine garbage. I honestly refuse to believe it gets any better, the prose is laughable.
The Faith was literally the reason the Andals came to, conquered, and settled Westeros, and it was also the driving force behind many of its internal wars
>>68970440
>valuing prose
Kek
It's like a mongoloid Down's Syndrome bragging about how he's superior to an microcephalic idiot.
Prose is just fingerpainting with shit.
Pretending to grade it on levels is laughable.
>Oh, I like this shit smear better than that shit smear. I am so superior for thinking so.
Fucking. LOL.
>>68970440
>being this much of a pretentious twat
>>68970567
>>68970597
>>68970597
>i'm eventually going to die one day
>better make sure i consume only accessible garbage that distracts me from the void
>>68963723
>massive populations
Seem small to me. King's Landing is the only place with a lot of people and even it's not that big.
>size of Europe
It's the size of the United Kingdoms because that's what it is.
>unified stated for thousands of years
300 years. And it's not entirely unified during its entire history given the rebellions and what not.
>very little technological advancement
What? You want them watching televisions or something?
>>68969989
>>68970261
>showfag
I would say that is fairly accurate. I'm one of these "showfags" you refer to. I have not read the books. But I do try to keep in mind that the show is largely the world through the eyes of the nobility and that antagonism on the part of the Faith toward the nobility colors them negatively.
When the peasantry are portrayed in the show they are very often highly religious. Even the nobility, who often shirk in the face of the gods, often reference them and practice customs that rely on the judgement of those gods. For example, the "Bread and Salt" custom that is only touched on very briefly is a pact between Host and Guest in the sight of the gods.
I think a lot of people who watch the show just don't pick up on the minor details. I try to pay attention to these kinds of things, which is why I realize the OP is full of shit. Between the Faith of the Seven, R'hollor, and the Old Gods religion is very heavily represented in the plot, even if the show spends most of its time focusing on the affairs of Nobles who don't have a lot of respect for religion.
>>68970758
>It's the size of the United Kingdoms because that's what it is.
Can't fucking be. The North is Finnland-tier and Dorne is at least South-Italy or Middle-east alike. I know that fantasy and all but you can't have such a radically different weather close to each other.
>>68963422
>>68963456
It's the basis for the legitimacy of the crown, an institution that has agents in every major house who are (normally) untouchable, and absolutely a major influence.
OP are you one of those fags that doesn't actually pay attention?
>>68970946
Actually you can because it's fantasy.
>>68970946
Bookfag here.
Westeros is several thousand miles up and down.
It's big.
But, George has problems with numbers so it's inconsistently big.
Functionally, it's like the size of Britain.
It takes only a little while to traverse it. There are only a handful of nobles per kingdom. Armies are considered massive when there is over a thousand men.
So there's a bit of a contradiction. We're told it's the size of continental Europe. But it acts like its the size of Britain.
Whoopsy.
The English Tolkein
>Not fat at all
>Fought in the Great War for his country
>Handsome as fuck
>Had a fertile wife who gave him children
>Had a deep respect for the past of his nation
>Is a standard to which other authors in his genre are measured against
The American Tolkein
>Fat
>Dodged the draft
>Ugly as fuck
>Married to pic related
>Has no-one to continue his legacy once he perishes
>Hates the white-het-cis patriarchy and moved to Mexico
>Measured against Tolkein and compared to him by Americans who want to pretend they have a rich literary tradition
Stick to Mice and Men, America. That's the only book that came out your nation that anyone really cares about.
>>68963646
You are aware the crusaders committed cannibalism right on women and children at one point right?
>>68970088
Mock trials are what's performed to teach law students, you uneducated slavcunt
>>68971255
They ate dead bodies in some siege, and Bohemond said that his men did to scare the Muslims away. But they weren't going around hacking women and children to bits to eat them, nice propaganda though, Mehmed.
>>68971436
It's funny how that during the Crusades, the Muslims were the civilized ones and the Christians were the barbarous hordes.
Now it's the other way around.
>>68970160
But the child was killed by his father Bael. Doesn't outright say whether or not that son had children, but I don't like to make assumptions
>>68963646
>Look at the crusades, thousands of men left everything to battle fro God and to save the eastern christians from the heathens with no promise of reward except in heaven.
>with no promise of reward except in heaven.
suuuuure
Templars became as rich as the richest European country at one point
Constantinople has been ravaged
etc.
>>68971463
But that's not true. Even Saladin was a slaver of women and children and a butcher of innocents. Muslims have always been savages, bar the Persians.
>>68971215
>implying GRRM is the American Tolkien
>UKuck in charge of spelling Tolkien right
kek, the American Tolkien was a door gunner in Vietnam, a graduate of the Citadel, a student of history, especially his nations history, and a robust outdoorsman
>>68971436
Glossing over eating dead human beings as a scare tactic is disgusting.
>>68971744
Bohemond's men didn't actually do it, lad. Bohemond used to say "When we find Muslims spying on us we cook them and eat them". I don't think they actually did it. Not that I'd say anything to Bohemond's face, desu
>>68971215
>GRRM is the American Tolkien
lol wut
>>68970440
It actually gets worse.
>>68972376
which character is this?
>>68970746
>even better spend my remaining hours posting on mongolian hawks training forum
>>68972447
Daenerys
>>68972170
How is he not overrated?
>>68963422
Your joking right?
>>68970746
>I'm eventually going to die one day
>better shitpost on an anonymous Chinese finger box forums and be a smug condescending prick to other anons over their personal "taste"
a life well spent
>>68963541
>only exists as a political tool for the main characters
So just like actual religion?
>>68972889
>>68965773
its because Martin has a very flawed understanding about how family lines were passed down and how dynasties were able to survive.
He thinks its all le edgy intrigue that keeps dynasties when in reality its just fucking adoption.
>>68971496
You've got it mistaken. Bael was later killed by his son, he didn't kill the son.
>>68973040
>implying organized religion isn't a tool utilized by the few to control the many
it literally says so in the good book itself
>religion has very little influence in Westeros
>the High Septon is staging a literal power grab
>the R'hllor faggots are fucking shit up all over for their gods
>the Dothraki range and rape and kill for the glory of their millenarian savior-cult
>the Old Gods worship in the North is entrenched in the common lives of people, and in the metaphysical abilities of the extreme minority like Bran
Nigger, get out.
>>68966798
>communist religious fundamentalism
pls
PLS
>>68970597
>I literally enjoy bad things
>>68963723
It depends what you mean by unified. It's bastard feudalism
the four wardens have loyalty to the king, but not eachother, the Leige Lords have loyalty to their warden but not eachother, vassal Lords/bannermen have loyalty to their leige but not eachother.
So neighboring castles, though both serving the same great house, can and do fight eachother as long as it doesn't get out of hand.
This is what Joffrey was talking about in season one.
And why a warden can just call his banners against the king.
>>68963422
Religion didn't matter to MOST kings and leader from that time period. It was used to get the population to support them.
Stannis was totally cucked by that priestess, and that's probably enough. The new ecclesiarchy or whatever the hell those guys in rags are is pretty interesting, though it's the people monitoring themselves and the government, rather than the other way around.
>>68964370
>thinking chain mail provides ANY protection against arrows or stabbing
Are you a fucking idiot?
>>68970440
>not watching GoT just for the tits
nigga I don't even speak English and I watch the show without subtitles
dialogue is irrelevant in shows/movies
>>68973160
>only
>>68963422
If he wrote so much about fictional religions then the readers would be bored and uniterested.
Why don't you spend your time reading about religion A/B/C/D/E? That's why he doesn't bother.
Agreed OP. I love the worldbuilding overall, but its unrealistic how low key they are about religion and how there haven't been religious wars. Or pilgrimages to Andalos/sacred locations around Westeros and so on. He explains it a bit with the whole "Targaryens suppressed the faith" thing, but I still have trouble buying the reality of the faith of the seven and the role it plays in Westerosi culture.
>>68974520
>but its unrealistic how low key they are about religion and how there haven't been religious wars.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Faith_Militant_uprising
What were you saying?
>>68967835
>Nights Watch are all there to escape death sentences
Lets see
>Jon Snow
nope
>Sam Tarly
not officially, but dad would murder him.
>Benjin Stark
nope
>Jeor Mormont
nope
>Aemon Targaryen
nope
>Alliser Thorne
yes
>Mance Rayder
nope
Janos Slynt
yes
ect...
>>68969064
>you will never capture a holy relic from the christians and take vengance over the travesties commited by Raynald of Chatillon
feels bad man
>>68963422
>fantasy setting
>literally just copied a map of bongistan and western europe
>>68963422
It's fantasy.
>>68977816
This is the worst thing right here
>>68964763
Malazan is so much better than got. Way more depth and focus on the Gods
>>68963646
Oh wow you are a retard. The knights were sent on religious quests so they'd stop raping and plundering their own people. The King and his Lords basically realized there was more money to be made in conquests abroad than in petty disputes with each over one Lord's knights roughing up another Lord's commoners. Commoners had work to do to keep their Lords and Kingdom fed and fueled. Knights abusing their power gets in the way, and there's no glory in it.
>>68966827
MUH AGINCOURT
what about patay you twats
>>68971631
Nearly everyone with power was a slaver back then. Learn some fucking history.
>>68972376
What is 'dysentery'? Do you want nearly shitting to death described in flowery euphemisms? Personally I prefer the blunt rout.
What you should really be criticizing is the poor plotting and character building in Danny's chapters. She is literally a moe-blob magical girl Mary-Sue. Her existence is the worst thing about the series.
>>68973110
You mean taking wards? Because that is a tactic used in the book.
>>68968275
I don't recall the show going into depth about the previous time the Seven had their military wing. Many of the characters were pretty pissed and worried about Cersei reinstating them.
But come on, you see the characters performing many rituals over the series, how is that not religious in nature? They don't have ahbramic gods to 'fear, cower and obey', some of their gods are things you revere and strive to impress with deeds related to it, some of the Seven is more pantheon like and just representations of things. I can't recall any of the 'creation myths' of the series though.
You need to remember that people in this age think most magic is MIA or that it was never real. Whilst others are completely aware and using magic, related to gods.
>>68981410
Literally this tbqh
Pope Urban jumped at the chance to kick the bloated nobility of Europe out of the continent so he could focus on his little quarrel with the Holy Roman Emperor
where the FUCK is the new book
So it's sort of implied that there is an actual supernatural basis behind R'hllor and the Old Gods.
Any evidence in the books that the Seven actually exist?
>>68965239
>Yeah they trashed some brothels, mutilated some homosexuals, and abuse the nobility. Big fucking deal.
Because in the modern west these things are considered BAD THINGS
