Do people actually dislike Ledger's portrayal of The Joker or was it a backlash against what they viewed as an unjust popularity? I thought it was played fucking great if I'm honest.
>People were expecting it to be shit based on nothing else but muhgaycowboy
>He did a good job
>Got praised for his performance
>So much so that hipsters decided he wasn't cool anymore
Same thing will happen with Leto.
>>67989405
Are you fucking retarded? Why do you think The Dark Knight is hailed as the best super hero movie of all time?
Contrarians
>>67990014
But thats not Spider-Man 2
I heard the method acting of Joker caused him to die from psychic problems?
why did he die?
such a great actor
>>67989649
>DAMAGED
>>67989405
I remember the time when it came out vividly. Everybody was raving about how amazing he was including myself and if anybody didn't like it was seen as poor taste so they kept it to themselves. I think over time people think he's overrated maybe by Marvel cucks who want to hurt DC's reputation or to have a hipster-contrarian opinion
>>67989405
It's not that Ledger's bad, it's just that the character has no motivation or backstory whatsoever. He literally just shows up and starts being evil for no reason. Why does he hate Batman? Why does he love chaos? The movie never explains it. Ledger was perfectly fine I guess, but it was a sloppy movie all around.
>>67990225
I agree. And I always found it weird that he just lets Harvey Dent go when he becomes Twoface. The whole movie he wants to kill him, then he just lets him go for no reason. It's sloppy writing.
>>67990043
Well obviously Spiderman 2 isn't the best super hero movie.
What's your point?
>>67989405
He wasn't bad, per se. It was more the writing and directing than anything else. Ledger did what he could, but he comes off like some character out of a horror movie. Joker is supposed to be bright and funny. Yeah, he's crazy, but his whole thing is that he's a clown. The whole movie is just so dower and serious. Comic book movies are supposed to be bright and fun.
>>67990306
I refuse to believe somebody could be this retarded.
I honestly can't tell who's memeing and who's seriously replying right now.
>>67990381
Have some le Plebbit gold m8y =)
>>67990306
b8 or IQ below 20, someone help me with this riddle.
>>67989405
I was incredibly hyped for the film. I hated his performance upon seeing it in the theater. I had to deal with "you don't like it because you're being contrarian all summer" He just was different from my projected expectations. I haven't watched it since my first viewing the day it came out. I still have a legitimate theater poster hanging in my room as a reminder not to get too excited over things.
>>67990225
Heath Ledger was the only good part of TDK. Everything else is really boring.
You could say his lines are bad but that's not his fault
>>67990306
If you remember the mob boss scene the entire goal was to "kill" the bat. Kill as in break him. He tried to use Harvey as a way to destroy his morals.
>>67990225
I really hate having to use the "ITS SUPPOSED TO BE THAT WAY" argument, but his having no motivation or backstory is kind of the point of the character
He's an agent of chaos, like he literally says in the film, he's literally just a dude who shows up and stirs up shitstorms and then revels in it, any characterization beyond that is unnecessary
>>67990459
Yeah, go suck on hack snyder's dick some more. There;s a reaon people love the Marvel movies. They're not afraid to have a little fun. What the fuck is honestly wrong with that? I don't want to be reminded of real life when I watch movies.
>>67990423
Well Anon I was being serious here >>67990210
I can't think of any reason why someone would think Heath's performance was bad. So what if the direction or writing is "bad" what is Heath doing in any given scene? He's eats up all the energy because he's like among mortals even Bale mentioned recently that his Batman was week especially compared to Heath's joker. Marvel will never a performance like Heath, the best they got was RDJ who basically just playing himself.
>>67990210
marvel movies are always ten steps behind DC movies in terms of actual acting and dialogue
the only thing marvel does better than DC movies is cater to kiddos who like epic quips and action that reminds them of children cartoons, its why marvel movies usually get better reviews, because most people are manchildren who like that stuff and can't appreciate good dialogue and mature characters
seriously name one fucking marvel hero that is as well written and mature as joker or batman
>>67990225
>>67990306
>no motivation
The character of Joker is essentially a force of chaos. The film doesn't give him a back story because, quite frankly, the comics never gave him one. We never know if he was a bank robber or a failed comedian or the true Red Hood. Joker represents anarchy, the imbalance to Batman's balance. In Heath's own words to Batman, "You complete me".
>>67990076
that was a PR rumor, he loved playing the joker character and thought it was fun.
he died cause he had insomnia and took too much different medication for it that you arent supposed to take together.
>>67990574
You say "agent of C.H.A.O.S", I say lazy writing. People shit on the infinity gems as being mcguffins, but at least I know WHY characters are doing things in Marvel Movies. DC shit is just stuff happening for two hours. It's just impossible to follow horseshit.
>>67990654
That and his cleaning lady called the Olsen twins instead on 911.
>>67990610
Iron Man had potential but they completely fucked up his alcoholism in IM2. I think the character with the most emotion and "depth" is Captain America
>>67990674
Do people honestly have fucking comic wars here? I thought /v/ was bad.
>>67990749
Welcome to Obama's republic of Hitlerstan
>>67990787
Do people honestly have board wars here? I thought r e d d i t was bad.
>>67989649
>Leto.
No it won't not unless he plans to kill himself, if he doesn't his performance will be the least care about: Ledger>Nicoloson>letto
>>67990225
The Joker as a character in the movie is a representation of chaos, for fucks sake, he says he's an agent of chaos in the film. Who he WAS before the events of the movie don't fucking matter AT ALL besides to autists, and his motivations are clear from the entire speech he gives to Harvey in the hospital. He's a psycho clown with nothing in his life besides a desire to cause pain, terror, and chaos. He comes to Gotham because Batman has gotten famous as a paragon of light fighting against darkness e.g. the intense crime problem of Gotham. Joker came to town because whatever the fuck he was doing beforehand paled in comparison to ruining a vigilante with big toys and acclaim.
I know this is the capeshit audience but jesus christ m8.
>>67990306
He wanted to kill Harvey but when that failed he decided to leverage him off of the deep end that he left him in after the death of his would-be fiance.
He saw another person he could manipulate into stirring up shit for him and he took the chance.
Also I'm sure he didn't want Bats and a pissed of mentally deranged attorney gunning for him when he went down to do the boat shindig so he went, plead his case, and won.
It makes sense, anon.
As for the OP, I'd think it'd be a little of both. Plenty of butthurt /co/mrades and casuals don't care much for the edgy Ledger Joker take on the character but honestly its about as interesting as the Hamill/Nicholson "He's just CUHRAZAY" Joker. I like Ledger's performance very much and the character of the Joker in the film, but overall I dislike the Nolan trilogy because the realism injected with the low-fantasy elements make for a mixed tone that mostly comes off as cheesy and pretentious to me. The Dark Knight would've been a pretty great action/crime film if you removed everything Batman about it, so really, Ledger feels pretty wasted here.
>>67990749
Why would anyone honestly want to watch a superhero movie about a guy battling alcoholism? Superhero movies are about escapism.
>>67989649
Leto will probably get shit for being too much like Ledger while some people will praise him for it.
Personally the only problem I have is it seems like the directors/writers/producers looked at the phrase "gangster clown" and took it too literally/put the character in a modern and retarded context. He looks like a fucking Juggalo.
>>67990610
Captain America has the most potential. Unfortunately, this potential is hardly used.
>I only know the movies
I was underwhelmed
My favourite joker is from the animated series, he's got that unnerving menace about him.
Heath joker looks like a druggie.
>>67990988
captain america is lame as fuck, his only superpower is being on steroids
he's literally batman without any of the smarts, money, fighting skills, influence, or IQ
>>67991091
>he's got that unnerving menace about him.
this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Veju4PxhuGc
Is more unnerving than this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3dl32LaOls&nohtml5=False
>okay
>>67991269
You can't argue with nostalgia, anon.
I'm convinced that the people who say the animated Joker is in any way crazier/scarier than Ledger are either low IQ or baiting.
>>67989405
Nolan's trilogy and Mask of the Phantasm are the only movies I've seen with the Joker
Is the whole "you and I, we're not that different" trope something that the Joker in the comics follows too or is it pure animosity? Because I kind of liked it here, it was a pretty curious kinship he felt for a man who absolutely hated him. Is that just something Nolan did?
>>67990674
He's the inverse of Batman, what's so hard to understand about that?
FYI he never had an origin story in the comics either.
>>67991340
It's because of this Hamill/Conroy ARE Joker and Batman nostalgia meme that started on Reddit. They're fucking not. They're just people who voiced the characters. Conroy isn't even good any more, whereas Hamill is better in the Arkham games than he ever was in TAS. They have their own take on the characters, and that is that.
It was interesting on a first viewing but each subsequent viewing made it feel more and more gimmicky. He just copied Tom Waits voice and did alot of chapped lipped mouth movements and sounds to emphasize his "smile". He barely laughed and when he did it was shit.
>but overall I dislike the Nolan trilogy because the realism injected with the low-fantasy elements make for a mixed tone that mostly comes off as cheesy and pretentious to me
That's the draw, anon. It's not just a story about Batman vs Joker, it's a deconstruction of the genre and a deeper look at the origin of the "superhero". Having a realistic type world with a select few true freaks running around doing freak things was more of an experiment than a comic book to film adaptation.
Maybe, in the Nolanverse, Batman, Joker, Scarecrow and the others have such an impression on society that they are immortalized in comic books that exaggerate things about them? They touch on this in Batman Begins. Batman's voice and demeanor is carefully developed to be able to strike fear into the hearts of Gotham's criminals. His gadgets used only in the darkness to create the illusion that he was really a bat flying around and smashing light bulbs. Word of mouth spreads and he becomes a legend. Then at the end, Gordon correctly predicts escalation (as represented by the Joker and the rest of the rogues gallery). Joker is an anarchist terrorist who wears clown makeup. Word spreads and he becomes a legend as well.
It's about where these ideas came from in the first place. Real world values (selflessness, justice), real world dangers (crime, terrorism), and how they are filtered into the realm of fiction.
I think Nolan lost sight of this in TDKR. Bane wasn't a realistic take of his comic counterpart. You can't let the legend of Hardy Bane spread and expect to get comic Bane. Also he kind of spit in the face of theatricality and the role it played in Batman's and the Joker's success. In this way it is spiritually different from the first two entries in the trilogy. It was more about the characters of Bruce and the others, and how they are still real people after all was said and done. It tells us that behind every legend there is a real person.
>>67989405
I think this movie was okay for it's time, but now people expect so much more from comic book movies. Look at the Joker, he didn't really do much. He killed like 20 people and made terrorist threats, but compare that to a villain like Ronan or Ultron. They were going to destroy the galaxy/world respectively. Joker is too street level. He really can't compete. Heath Ledger did what he could, but Joker isn't really a good villain.
>>67990674
Thanks, Marvel. Thank you for your stellar contribution to the human imagination.
>>67993186
Once again, thanks Marvel. This is all you.
>>67992135
Well stated anon
>>67993186
7/10 bait I'm gonna go try that on /co/
>>67990225
Literally explained in the movie by michael caine. "Some men just want to watch the world burn."
Too bad, every superhero movie now has a "lolsorandom" chaotic villain because the joker was so successful. Like loki and lex luthor recently.
>>67990306
>>67993350
>tfw some actually agrees with my tl;dr post
>>67993824
Yeah I didn't have anything to add on, but I wanted you to know that it's appreciated
>>67993186
no one gives a shit about the plot of Marvel movies because its always "OHNOEZ HES GONNA EXPLODE UP THE WORLD IN HALFF!!!111" No one can relate to that stupid shit.
>>67990225
"My fahtherr.... Was.... A little bit disappointing.
Not very disappointing mind you, he didn't make any mistakes worth mentioning. Yeah, all in all, he was a pretty good guy I guess, but he spent a little too much time working on his ship with that wookie."
>>67993867
thanks family, I worked hard on it
>>67993186
Are you kidding me?
Heath ledger's joker in context is infinitely me terrifying than ultron in the context of avengers 2. You just know no one significant will die when ultron gets angry. He destroys half the world, but we don't have to give a shit because we haven't been taught to; there is no connection between the superheroes and reality, which is why it's a kids' movie. On the other hand, ledger's joker is always threatening. I thought Gordon was dead, and he blew up Rachel, a legitimately significant character.
People like you saying a good villain has to kill half the world is exactly what's wrong with Hollywood blockbusters currently. Writers/directors/everyone think they can get by without writing personality and development into their characters. They think they can read through a script, raise every number they see to the 10th power, and that will somehow make a worthwhile movie. It's not the case. There is no substitute for originality, and there never will be. Literally the main objective of people is to recognize patterns in the world around us. We learn from things, and making an original and worthwhile movie takes real skill.
>>67990225
>hates batman
except he doesn't. he even threatens(then does) blow up a hospital to keep his identity a secret.
"You have nothing to threaten me"
Fuck Reddit hate, that scene was pure kino.
>>67990306
Not op but i'm not convinced. Someone explain how Two-Face's transition wasn't forced as fuck.
>>67994291
Love of your life murdered, your scarred ridiculously, you will never be the function of justice you wanted to be, there is really only one way to exact that justice.
Crazy ass fuck that embodies all the shit that you tried to clean up shows up at your hospital bed and offers you to pull the trigger on him.
Mind fucked. The entire thing is a PTSD trip, it's what the joker wants.
Who are the only people that resist him? Oh wait, the crazy ass prisoner because he's already resigned to his fate before even being threatened by death. Captain fucking Spears of the movie.
That movie is not written by Nolan, I don't know who got ahold of it, but holy fuck. It's fantastic.
Batmans worse enemy is dogs and knives, its great and primal. One of the only wounds he suffers in BvS is a knife stab. This joker was written to be a beast in cognitive human form. Something that has no fear of death, no fear of the dark, no fear of a bat.
>>67994291
It was hinted at that Harvey Dent was always a little unstable. Fans of TAS will remember that his character was dealing with schizophrenia and there was a buildup that eventually came to a head when he became disfigured.
Same thing applies in TDK. We know that he is a bit of a brash hothead, taking on Gotham's mobs fearlessly and even knocking some guy out for pulling a gun on him. He even pulled one of Joker's henchmen to the side and threatened to shoot him. It is established that he had the name "two-face" when he worked for IA, alluding to the possibility that he is more cunning and deceitful than he looks. We know Rachel likes inherently good men who are broken psychologically. Maybe she was his rock? Like she kinda was for Bruce except she was actually within his grasp.
His transformation didn't exactly come from nowhere, you just have to read between the lines a little.
>>67989405
Ledger did a great job.
But it got way to popular/famous in the wake of both the films success and his death. These days contrarians are out in force. Claiming the entire film is pure shit from top to bottom including the Joker.
Its to be expected at this point. It isn't "cool" anymore.
Another way to phrase is that Bruce had a chance for a normal life, but the film establishes that Dent has one now, and also that the Joker probably never did have that option.
So the protagonist has a choice between trying to protect this hopeful character, or to succumb to this damaged character. Yet the fact that they're all more or less the same age makes it brilliant, with a certain amount of subtextual mirroring...
Can he choose between his lover, or the city itself?
Or could be a hero, saving both hostages and keeping the situation intact?
Or, after that conversation, does he relate more to the Joker, not wanting anyone to have Rachel?
Ledger was godlike and TDK was great but this is a case where I can understand the contrarians. The Joker's success resulted in one of the most horrific merchandise/marketing pushes of all time, for fucking YEARS you could not go anywhere without seeing shitloads of edgy faggy joker merchandise or some queer with gauges in his ears and colorful hair wearing an edgy joker T-shirt.
>>67990879
>he forms opinions before the subject of his opinion had been fully presented
>>67995560
>Ledger was godlike
kek
>>67989649
name one thing Leto has been good innot fight club
>>67991515
It's definitely always been a thing, it's often hinted that the Joker probably could have killed Batman at some point but hasn't because his only purpose for existing is to fuck over Batman, and that Batman has done the same for the Joker.
>>67995739
Requiem for a dream
Dallas Buyers Club
Chapter 27
Mr Nobody
Only good thing about Alexander
Okay in Panic Room
>>67995679
what do YOU think was a better capeshit performance? please enlighten me, but this time try to say more than "kek"
>>67992135
good post tbqh
TDKR felt so different from the first 2. those were deeply rooted in psychology and madness.. then bane is just a big guy and everything about TDKR is dumb and straight forward, didn't even feel like it belonged in the same trilogy. i guess Nolan spent all his energy on Inception and couldn't be bothered with capeshit after that
>>67995840
Yep yep.
And if
>>67995679
Disagrees with more than 1/2 of that list he is being contrarian just for the sake of it. He was fucking great in the first 2 movies you mentioned. I've seen everything else except that mr. nobody shit.
The Joker is a villain basically with a sense of hysteria, but nothing in the way of fear... so Scarecrow's out of the way immediately, and the mob drops just as fast, along with the Joker's henchmen... So we're aware that this antagonist is different right away.
It's just great how all of the conflicts raised in the first movie, and the start of DKR, are granted punctuation by Rachel's death by the middle of the film. The protagonist is left reeling and the Joker advances past the mob and into the heart of the city. And forgiveness is framed as the key to redemption. Truly beautiful but not sappy in the least.
Fuck
I meant if ..
>>67995739
Disagreed with that list.
>>67995828
There's actually a scene in one of the more recent comics in which Batman has an inner monologue about having learned to read people's mental states by looking at subtle changes in their pupils. He says he can tell when a man is lying, when a man is afraid, when a man has given up. But the only thing he has ever been able to read in the Joker's eyes disturbed him the most.Love
>>67990225
jfc. why why does it have to be dumbed down for stupid fucking plebs like you. i know this is bait but jfc i'm mad
>>67995840
>>67996014
the only noteworthy role here is requiem and he still gets eclipsed by the nigger from scary movie
im hype for SS just because of david ayer, but unless he pulls a miracle leto is gonna be try hard and 2D as fuck, as always. yawn.. margot robbie will steal the movie, she outshines everyone elses boring performances in the promo shit
>>67991515
Joker is the Dionysian to Batman's Apollonian. Batman tries to bring order to the chaos around him and Joker tears it down. They are almost spiritual counterparts, if Batman overpowered his nemesis there would be tyranny, if Joker did, there would be anarchy. Their constant dance leaves humanity to thrive in the balance rather than suffering under either extreme.
This movie was amazing. I can't believe people hate it or Ledgers performance. I get that it's annoying how many people outright worship this movie and his part in it, but it was good and it's not fair to say it was shit just because fan boys are obnoxious.
>>67996364
This is gay. He's not Batman's polar opposite, how is a clown the reverse of a bat. It makes no sense. Plus, Joker has not training, no real skills or power. He's no match for Batman at all. There is no real tension because Joker isn't an actual threat.
This is why it pains me to no end to hear this ridiculous "Marvel has lame villains" meme. Look at even the "lesser" Marvel films. In Ant-Man, Darren Cross is Scott Lang's better in every way. Yellowjacket has all the same abilities as Ant-man, only his suit actually does more AND he's a complete pyscho with no remorse whatsoever. He could easily kill Ant-Man, and the only way he survives is through courage and ingenuity. Same with Ronan in Guardians. Star Lord is just some shmuck who was thrust into this situation, and Ronan is a seasoned Warlord weilding a weapon that can destroy the entire universe. Peter Quill has to rely on his cunning just to stand a chance. Batman, on the other hand, can make short work of the Joker EASILY, so the writers have to rely on a bunch of cliched plot contrivances to make them even remotely equal.
>>67989649
Kind of an insult to Ledger, Leto's Joker is shit.
People will prob. like it though just cause it's the latest joker.
>>67995988
Nolan didn't want to make TDKR, he told the studio "let me make inception or no batman."
After health died Nolan's early plans for a squeal with the joker was thrown down the toilet.
>>67996594
>it's cool when the good guy is weak and relies on his wits to outsmart the bad guy
>it's not cool when the bad guy is weak and relies on his wits to outsmart the good guy
they both make interesting stories/struggles. unless you want some DBZ shit where they are both at the same power level
>>67992135
I agree, also i want to state that this is some deconstruction of the moral compass in the superhero genre,you have three key characters,batman(the order,the justice,etc),the joker (chaos, crime etc) and harvey dent.Is in this last its shown the balance between the other two,in the beggining he was the law,the order,but in the third act he becomes kind of insane,so you have a lot of dichotomys good and bad etc.To simbolize this you yave his face,and now lets remember his decense to madness,his lifes love die,and the crime he fight to erraeicate is more strong now,the police its corrupt,so how one judge this people,that act for orders,theres no middle groind,no grey areas,just total good and total bad,the only way to judge this its with a coin,two sides,,two faces of a whole.
>>67996594
> There is no real tension because Joker isn't an actual threat.
That's the thing, though. Maybe Batman (whose superpower is literally class inequality) can take the Joker. But our buddy the Joker? He's not trying to beat the Batman...he's trying to beat society.
And he's winning.
>>67990610
>marvel movies are always ten steps behind DC movies in terms of actual acting and dialogue
