Can we agree that The Phantom Menace was better than The Force Awakens?
>>67945926
Yes
>>67945940
1-3 were all better than 7, I know the truth hurts.
>>67945926
Yes. TFA was fanfiction garbage, while TPM felt like a REAL Star Wars movie.
>>67946010
>>67946060
Fuck off, Lucas.
>>67946010
The truth is that you have terrible taste in movies
Phantom Menace is the best of the Prequels. Revenge is pretty close but Clones is 100% shit
>>67945926
I wouldn't say The Phantom Menace was better, but Revenge of the Sith was better than The Force Awakens.
>>67945926
Yes.
>>67945926
we know it's you, Lucas
>>67945926
Yes.
The Force Awakens is basically what we've been exposed too for the past decade and a half in pop culture sitcoms like How I Met Your Mother or Family Guy, all reminding us how awesome the original Star Wars trilogy is without delivering any new real content in case of scaring away old fans and alienating people, The Phantom Menace took risks and was bold in this regard, one of the reasons it is a better movie but also a disaster, a disaster but a fun one. The Force Awakens is a boring, dull exposition movie filled with the worst type of pop culture references we've seen so many times over and is a chore to watch because there is no heart or soul with it due to being nothing more than a cash in gimmick on the current flavour of the decade growing faux nerd culture trend. Shame on Abrams for just tacking on Han's death to stop it being a forgettable movie.
>>67946010
this
the prequels are flawed but still much better than tfa
I agree. At least it will be remembered unlike vii
>>67946010
>>67946060
>>67946107
>>67946128
>>67946214
>>67946261
>>67946319
>>67946327
Good luck with the autism.
>>67945926
Not at all. In fact, no one outside of this retarded site would agree that
>>67946437
It's not working, George.
I FUCKING LOVED JAR JAR
and pod racing.
and darth maul.
and Qui-Gon.
and Padme.
>>67946128
This. I enjoyed RotS so much more than TFA. I'll always prefer an ambitious clusterfuck to a "good" by-the-numbers success of formula.
>>67946261
>Episode I
same story as Episode IV with old characters
>Episode VII
similar story to Episode IV with new characters
When will this "at least the prequels were original" meme end?
Go home, george
>>67946469
>I'll always prefer an ambitious clusterfuck to a "good" by-the-numbers success of formula.
Shakespeare never wrote an original story. All of his work was based on something else. Is he a bad writer?
Name one thing The Force Awakens did that was original.
Protip: you can't
>>67946599
Black stormtrooper
>>67946469
>I'll always prefer an ambitious clusterfuck to a "good" by-the-numbers success of formula.
well I rather have vanilla sex with a pretty girl than crazy anal scat sex with an ugly transvestite
>>67946502
Hahaha, literally what? Basing a story in an existing mythology or straight-up adapting one isn't the same as fill in the gaps three act horseshit. At least Shakespeare's plays improve on their source material and, in the case of the histories, make real events more exciting. TFA is just a shitty version of ANH, senpai.
This has nothing to do with originality though. It's about lazy screenwriting.
>>67946599
name anything any movie past 2010 did that was original
>>67946502
He didn't mention originality you retard.
>>67946473
If you enjoyed The Force Awakens and thought it had any semblance of a "good film", then you are everything wrong with modern society and have been brainwashed into enjoying nothing more than Capeshit.
>>67946599
Kylo Ren is pretty original. People compare him to Anakin, but they're nothing alike. Kylo is an obsessive, slightly autistic edgelord who tries really hard to be a badass. He's obsessed with his lineage, and living up the legacy of his grandfather.
>>67946646
Where do you think we are?
No, but the fight against Darth Maul was better than anything in TFA
obviously
TFA is just capeshit. you can hate on the prequels all you want but atleast TPM is actually LIKE a star wars film
waa waa you dont like the green screen? get the fuck over it faggots
>>67946677
ANH also improves upon its source material by being both better directed, and better acted. The Shakespeare comparison is completely appropriate.
>>67946502
All art is based on something.
NO
No. I don't like TFA much, but it least had Kylo Ren and a bearded Mark Hamill.
>>67946736
>yfw Darth Maul brings out his double bladed lightsaber for the first time
the prequels are a blast
I really dont care about rlm faggots telling me what i can and cannot enjoy
i nearly fell asleep twice in TFA. everything was bland and the characters sucked, i did not care about a damn thing happening
i also like the orginals but TFA sucked hard
Epi 1 - 8/10
epi 2 - 6.5/10
epi 3 - 8.5/10
epi 4 - 8.5/10
epi 5 - 8.5/10
epi 6 - 7/10
TFA - 4/10
>>67946473
Kids who grew up with the Prequels never realized how obviously shoehorned in all the nostalgia baiting was in 1-3. People clamoring about originality seem to forget shit like Lucas making the clones all Boba Fett for absolutely no reason, or Anakin making C-3PO because why not, or taking everyone to Tatooine because HEY EVERYONE REMEMBER THE FIRST ONE?
>>67946838
the prequels are what the OT should have been
>>67946817
>I was 8 when episode I came out so I have an irrational love for that objectively terrible film
>>67946759
I presume you're talking about TFA? For me it just lacks ANH's charm. The chemistry between its three young leads and the rawness of its practical effects give it a real, timeless magic.
>>67946759
>ANH also improves upon its source material
I assume you mean TFA improving on ANH, and while that's true in terms of a lot of the acting and aspects of the direction, it falls short of ANH in many important ways. The Shakespeare comparison is hyperbolic.
>>67946261
This is by far the best argument I've seen ever since the movie came out. I knew something was off about the movie, but couldn't put it into words.
>>67946972
>>67946986
Yes, I meant the TFA. The issues with TFA relate entirely to how the lead is written. Luke wasn't particularly great, but it least he had a relatable quality to him. Rey's power just makes her come across as cryptic and unrelatable. But aside form her, TFA is great. Fantastic villain, good acting, well-shot. It's a fine film.
My problem with all SW discussions is how immune the original trilogy is to critical examination
>>67946925
It's getting embarrassing now, George.
>>67947150
Fine, I agree. But it doesn't try to be anything more. It's a film no one will dislike, and that's exactly what it was made to be. Pure safety.
>>67947237
Because the OT is literally flawless
>>67947336
If Han had died heroically in ROTJ and we'd seen Chewie going back to his people and embracing his cultural heritage, the OT would be the pinnacle of all film forever.
>>67945926
TFA has literally no memorable songs.
>>67947634
pleb. i think episode ii is one of the best soundtracks. if youd listen to the soundtrack on its own its solid. i keep humming kylos theme. and jedi steps is really good.
>>67947634
The Kylo Ren motif is fucking great.
This is good too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3YcCLaTnBE
>>67946437
But reddit doesn't call people autistic
>>67947150
TFA has problems with several characters, not just the lead. The way the plot itself is structured is also fairly clumsy compared to ANH. It's frequently rather sloppy.
>>67947237
People acknowledge all kinds of issues with the OT, though. Particularly with RotJ.
>>67947951
>TFA has problems with several characters, not just the lead.
No it doesn't. People who complain about Finn's quick turn have no understanding of the series' tone. The film doesn't owe us more Phasma. Poe only comes across as underutilized because he's such a likable presence whenever he's on screen.
>>67945926
>Starting a thread with "can we agree" on 4chan
>>67947150
>Rey's power just makes her come across as cryptic and unrelatable.
the sad part is she was pretty likeable to me at the beginning minus the generic annoyed with bb8 before becoming friends bit
TFA was good.
>>67948155
yea if i didn't know any better i'd say this entire thread along with all the other star wars threads started since the bluray came out have been bait threads
>>67945926
For sure.
they should just have made rey so powerful she could destroy the death star with her mind and then in the next film the empire should have made a new death star 20 times bigger and then she should just have destroyed that with her mind as well
dunno what episode 9 should be about
>>67948526
rey accidentally brings sheev back to lifee and makes him her slave
>>67946709
Thanks for showing up, millennials.
>>67946817
TFA felt like a 2 hour tv movie
>>67945926
Holy fuck, no.
>what is jar jar binks
>what is young anakin
>what is bad cgi
>what are jokes made for children
>what are annoying characters
>what is jar jar binks
TFA has a much better story, better writing and more interesting characters. I admit, I like Obi-Wan more than any of the characters from TFA, but that's about it.
TFA looks better, has better action, is not made directly for children and is generally better produced.
>>67945926
TFA was for adults.
TPM was for children.
tl;dr OP's a faggot.
>>67949231
they're both for children tho
TFA was not good.
>>67949164
>>67949231
>TFAggots acting like their precious baby movie wasn't dogshit.
How many years has it been, and nothing has yet surpassed even RotJ?
5>6>4>7>3>2>1
everyone else is memeing
>inb4 3>
>>67949380
>like failing to surpass RotJ is a bad thing
I mean, neither does Phantom Menace. What's your point? Noones claiming TFA is the best of the franchise, it's just better than the shitty prequels
Holy shit TFAgs are just as bad as bronies
>>67949492
go watch mad cuck
>>67949449
It's not even better than the prequels though. That's the big problem.
Everyone's acting like it was better than the prequels, or somehow made up for them, but it's just as bad if not worse than some of them.
>>67949497
says the mad TFA faggot LMAO
>>67949501
Stop posting. We get that you don't like TFA and the fact that it stars a female and black lead, but you can't expect to be taken seriously with an opinion that ludicrous.
>>67949497
TFAggots on suicide watch.
>>67949501
>lololololol midichlorians that's a ridiculous break from how the force is portrayed in the originals
>the force has always just been a way for you to go super saiyan with little to no training and relate to inanimate objects like lightsabers
>>67949501
The plot in TFA is pretty much the plot of ANH.
Other than that, TFA does alot of stuff better than the prequels like
>villains (Palpatine excluded, better in 4, 5, 6 anyways)
>soundtrack
>interesting characters
>action sequences
>cgi
>to normal people, a more thrilling and interesting plot, probably because it's pretty much the same as before, but still highly passable
>>67948114
It's not that Finn's turn being "quick" is the issue, it's that his personality and disposition are fundamentally at odds with his purported back story, leaving his background with the First Order wasted and incoherent. Maz is a dull exposition machine, Han being a mere smuggler again feels like a lazy regression (even given the circumstances), and Snoke being yet-another-pasty-white-string-puller feels similarly uninspired, as does the treatment of Luke. These last few are only an issue when considering the previous films (which like it or not VII demands comparison to given its status as a sequel) but the first couple are sloppy even on the movie's own terms. Maz and Finn aren't big problems, but they do drag down a movie that could use some compelling qualities.
>>67949583
>>67949551
look at the butthurt
>>67949763
>u mad
Wow TFAggots confirmed worse than bronies.
>>67946709
Anyone who disagrees is a millenial
>>67946709
Says the one who's brainwashed to follow a cult of intellectuals where every opinion is objective and every new big movie is shit
fuck, listen to yourself. do you really think TFA is so bad it actually shits itself worse than phantom menace? i bet you weren't even around when that movie was in the cinema
>LOOK 4CHAN AM I KINO YET? XD
>>67949578
Nah.
TFA just outright isn't good. It's a 6/10 at best, and only because of high production values.
In terms of characterization, acting, dialogue, and so many other things, it's just as bad as the prequels.
Take a look comparing it to RotS:
You've got Ewan McGregor and Ian McDiarmid as the only ones bothering to put effort in. Back to TFA, and we've got only Boyega and Driver putting effort in, but Boyega is stuck in a comedic role and admittedly hasn't done enough serious acting to sell the roll for anything but a few quick gags. The only thing saving his performance is his enthusiasm.
As far as narrative structure, conflicts, and other writing buzzwords go, we're looking at TFA having done less than RotS attempted. Keywords: done versus attempted. What TFA did it did well. Problem is, it didn't do much. What story got told, what characters got developed? We bounce from setpiece to setpiece without the movie stopping to establish itself as an independent work. Meantime RotS at least made an attempt at a character falling into darkness where TFA has kylo interest in the dark side from .... his heritage?
Here's the deal: TFA has very little bad if we can look past Rey. The problem is it has very little good either. Dialogue is especially a problem. I saw TFA on release and I can't remember a single line from it, "traitor" memes aside.
Uneven as it was, RotS could swing up to respectable heights, like McGregor addressing Christensen after defeating him, or McDiarmid seducing the latter to the dark side. Where it failed is that the bond between characters was developed almost entirely outside the movies, and Christensen's character arc moves far too quickly.
Not just from RotS, but other arcs from the prequels too. The Tatooine arc from TPM manages to accomplish more than the TFA Dakku arc entirely.
TFA plays too safe. It's well-produced and visually impressive, but it doesn't strive for any grand heights. It's no better than the prequels in the end.
>>67946966
This, this is the only possible way to explain anybody defending the Prequels.
>>67949805
I don't know, faggots that compare everything to bronies in a desperate attempt to discredit someone seems more pathetic.
>>67945926
This is objectively the best star wars ranking list:
1. Return of the Jedi
2.Empire Strikes Back
3. A New Hope
4. The Phantom Menace
5. Revenge of the Sith
6. Attack of the Clones
7. The Force Awakens
>>67949746
Finn's backstory isn't related to us at all. We know that he was captured as a child, and that's it. We don't know the First Order's brainwashing procedure, or what their living quarters are like. Anyone who thinks that having a personality is incompatible with being a fascist foot soldier has never read personal accounts by Nazi officers. What's frightening about them is how quotidian their lives are; they're perfectly capable of being funny and lighthearted while committing the worst crimes imaginable. There's nothing incongruous with someone like Finn, who was basically a janitor, being a generally likable guy. Also, this is Star Wars. We don't expect emotional realism from the series that had Leia quipping days after her entire planet was destroyed.
V > VI > VII > IV > I >III > II
>>67946261
I guess that makes sense if you're the kind of person who'd rather see a trainwreck than just bland mediocrity. I consider TFA's boring, safe, forgettableness a step up from the universally reviled prequels.
> Shame on Abrams for just tacking on Han's death to stop it being a forgettable movie
Really? I consider Han's death to be basically a copy of Obi Wan's death in ANH. Killing the old mentor while the protagonists watch helplessly is probably one of the most formulaic parts.
>>67950136
IV > VII = V > VI > III > I > II
>>67949709
I want to refute some of these.
Villains I will give you. One overarching villain is far better than playing the 'villain of the movie' game, which is a shame when McDiarmid and Chris Lee were available.
>soundtrack
It's John Williams against John Williams. I'm inclined to call this personal taste, but I'd rather avoid the subject since music is outside what I really know.
>interesting characters
Both had interesting characters, and both managed to squander them. Finn has been reduced to comedic relief, Poe did nothing, and Phasma ended up in the trash. Meanwhile the prequels killed off Jango, Dooku, and Grevious too soon after introducing them. The Naboo Guard captain and Cody both are introduced then ignored.
They're equal in this aspect.
>action sequences
Not based on TFA alone they're not. The lightsaber duels are a step in the right direction, but the ground battle -- while not CG -- disappointed me in the scale of it. A whole cantina was reduced to rubble in seconds and all the inhabitants? I can hardly remember. That battle was the usual "action heroes shooting lots and hitting; enemy fodder shooting lots and missing". I can't praise it any more than I can praise the running battle through the hallways of Cloud City. It's there, it happened, but it's not notable. ESB at least had Hoth to make up for this, but that was the main ground battle of TFA. Prequels did have some cool stuff on Geonosis and then Utapau, but it was awkwardly crammed in, and of course, >CG.
>CGI
a meme. Can we not? If there was some common sense used in the prequels, it would have involved getting at least a few suits of clone armor for the close-ups. Otherwise complaining about the CG is no better than complaining they had to CG a T-rex into Jurassic Park.
>to normal people, a more thrilling plot
This is true, but RotS more or less got this part right, as did TPM if you're lenient and we can cut the gungangs out.
Comparing TFA against the prequels, they come out fairly even
>>67950133
>We don't know the First Order's brainwashing procedure, or what their living quarters are like.
We don't, but we know it's extensive and very tightly controlled. The First Order trooper program clearly isn't by-the-numbers fascist recruitment. Finn being such an every-man felt off and unearned. I enjoyed Boyega, but Finn as a character rings hollow.
>Also, this is Star Wars
So what? The OT was frequently emotionally interesting when it mattered, especially Empire and Jedi. I don't care about the Alderaan-Leia example anyway, ANH makes up for it elsewhere with Obi-Wan's reaction and the way Alderaan's destruction altered the characters' goals and situation. You don't have time or reason to care about Alderaan's inhabitants much, but the planet's demise does impart a sense of desperation which is more than enough for the movie. It's certainly more than what the Starkiller attack accomplishes.
>>67950133
>We don't expect emotional realism from the series that had Leia quipping days after her entire planet was destroyed.
Well, it's not like they were her real parents.
>>67949978
>shitposting to make a point
Don't do this.
>>67950256
Terrible.
>>67950136
>>67950256
terrible
>>67950133
Not him but the fact that Finn's backstory barely gets mentioned is one of the problems I have with it.
The problem for me is just--I don't even know how brainwashed the stormtroopers are. Is Finn's betrayal unprecedented? Did the Force choose him? Are there a bunch of guys like Finn and he just got lucky? Is he simply a guy who got drafted and then defected, or is his turn meant to be seen as miraculous?
>>67950082
I don't know, someone that replies to everything with u mad seems pretty pathetic
>>67950006
I'm not going to bother dissecting this point by point. Learn to be concise. And don't contradict yourself. If you concede that that TFA is "well-produced and visually impressive" then claiming that "it's no better than the prequels" is absurd. Unless you seriously believe that the aesthetic abortion that is Star Wars Episode II is as visually compelling. As for the performances, literally every single spoken line in TFA is better delivered than all but the best lines in the prequels. Adam Driver in particular might have given the best performance in the series' history - playing a character that more than makes up for Rey's rushed arc.
The only reason people will remember the prequels is because they left a huge shit stain on the star wars name. TFA redeemed starwars
>>67950593
>gee i wonder if animation has changed any in the last 14 years
>>67950593
Kylo doesn't make up for Rey. Not even close. He is the best part of the movie, though. By far.
>>67946437
BOYYYYY
HE SAID THE MEME WORD
>>67945926
Yup.
>>67950593
I've seen these arguments before. They're lacking.I'd link them to you, but unfortunately the archives are down.
We could sit and discuss this if you'd like, but you're post makes me think you want this conversation to end. Correct me if I'm wrong.
make way, best Star Wars character coming through
>>67950654
TFA was supposed to make up for the prequels, but all it did was join them.
>>67950256
Beautiful
>>67950721
Was that an intentional reference to the Obi-Wan line?
>>67950464
>Finn being such an every-man felt off and unearned.
Due your own biases. You don't know what being a solider is like. Members of ISIS make jokes.
>The OT was frequently emotionally interesting when it mattered, especially Empire and Jedi.
My point wasn't to deride the OT for its lack of realism, it was to point out that the Flash Gordon space opera tone of the series doesn't lend itself well to soldiers suffering from PTSD. The gestures iare more important than the authenticity.
>It's certainly more than what the Starkiller attack accomplishes.
No, it doesn't. Seeing the faces of the people on the planets being destroyed does more to impart a sense of dread than Obi-Wan's enervate reaction does.
>>67950765
The dialogue works well.
>anon, TFA is bad
>from my point of view, TFA is good
and so on.
The original trilogy had good dialogue.
The prequels swung between cringey or bad enough to be good.
TFA managed to have passable, but forgettable dialogue.
It's a greater summary of the movies, really.
>>67950658
That's not an excuse. If the CGI was bad, then it shouldn't have used as much CGI.
>>67945926
>Meesa step in da doo doo!
Yeah, sorry, no.
>>67946261
This so fucking much, TFA was an average ok movie sure (leaving aside the low common denominator appeal which is what makes it bland), but it was a bad starwars in itself, and thats what most people wont look over, even if the og trilogy had its bad moments, they stay true to the tone and story
>>67950936
>The original trilogy had good dialogue.
It was derided at the time for its terrible dialogue. Harrison Ford himself used to say "you can type this shit, but you can't say it." It got slightly better when Kasdan joined, but it still wasn't great.
>>67945926
no
I was better than II and III. I set the prequels up, it had heart, some retarded ideas, painfully bad "humor" but it didn't completely fuck everything up yet.
I also respect that it had its own art style, unlike VII which was just change the the colors of pre-existing stuff.
But let's face it, post-80s George Lucas as made a mess of everything he's touched. I, II, III, Crystal Skull, that weird fairy movie. You know how bad you have to be to be worse than JewJew Abrahim? Well Lucas is there.
>>67945926
to be honest the ideas of episode I-III is quite nice. It has a reasonable approach to it. Just the goofy stuff was terribad. if they had polished the imperators path to power it could have been truely epic
>>67950996
If we're looking at the script as written, sure. The actors knew this. Alec Guinness talks about wanting to remove the "ropey" lines from it. Ford simplified his lines to fit the character better.
What we're looking at is the end result that made it into the films. What the viewers see and hear. The dialogue at that level was good.
>>67950675
I've been having these conversations for months. I'm tired of it. The criteria by which we judge this sort of stuff is so subjective that discussions of the film all end up being a waste of time.
>>67950840
Why are you ignoring the fact that the First Order's troopers aren't normal soldiers? Finn is seemingly something of an anomaly. That's the issue. If this were ISIS it wouldn't really be as jarring. But it's not.
I'm not asking for The Deerhunter or for Phasma's encounter with Finn to be the second coming of Kurtz, but seeing him warm up to his newfound humanity/self-agency would've been more consistent and more interesting. And there's still room for lightheartedness with that story.
>No, it doesn't.
It does. Seeing a bunch of nobodies gasp doesn't erase the fact all relevant parties in the story barely give a shit. The Resistance reacts to the Starkiller with a nearly parodic self-awareness.
>>67951316
What do you mean they aren't normal? They're humans. You can't suppress all aspects of inherent human behavior. And let me reiterate my main point, regardless of the lack of precise realism in his arc, the tone of Finn's character is a better portrayal of the Saturday morning serials Star Wars were inspired by than a Hunger Games-esque mope-fest.
>Seeing a bunch of nobodies gasp doesn't erase the fact all relevant parties in the story barely give a shit.
I don't have the energy to argue this point, but a mild reaction from plot-centric characters isn't better than a much better performed scene with the victims themselves. But that's a subjective argument.
>>67951797
You know "subjective" just just a cop-out word right?
It's like people who say "beauty is subjective" or "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" because they don't want to sit down and discuss what beauty is and is not.
Look to the Greeks, and you've got them sitting down and looking at the relationship between beauty and the other goods and how they're all linked into taking care of the mind and body, and that working one of the goods works all of the goods.
>>67950688
That is not Rey
>>67952062
You do realize that the Greek attempts to codify objective standards of beauty was pure sophistry, right? There are people who listen to and enjoy Merzbow.
>>67952062
>the Greeks figured out everything and no philosophical progress has been made since those days
>>67951797
>What do you mean they aren't normal?
They have extensive brainwashing, are stolen from their homes, and aren't even given proper names. That isn't normal. Finn's acclimation to the outside didn't work in the movie. Granted, there's much about the First Order's program we don't really know, as >>67950568 points out, but that only hurts Finn more since the gravity of his defection is somewhat nebulous. It's hard to care, especially given his disposition.
>I don't have the energy to argue this point, but s mild-reaction
That's the thing though. ANH's characters not only actually emote more regarding Alderaan's destruction, but said destruction is also much more central to the plot. It pervades many aspects of thr story. The goals shift, and it creates a sense of desperation. The Starkiller subplot feels like a mere gesture toward adherence to ANH's narrative model. Nothing more. The fact everyone is so utterly casual about it just makes it more apparent. Sure it's easier to empathize with the Republic than Alderaan because of that scene, but when the movie can't bother to give a shit there's no real reason for me to, either. It's just a superfluous subplot. I'm not that easily emotionally manipulated.
>>67952169
>Greek attempts to codify objective standards of beauty was pure sophistry
That's Socrates/Plato/Socrates. He used that idea of absolute good and that good as a category that other characteristics like health and justice could belong to.
Early philosophy was all about using reason to argue points. The Sophists were about using charisma to support any argument, flawed or not.
You can find examples of this in Book I of The Republic, where Thrasymachus stands in for the Sophists as a whole with his argument that "justice is whatever the strong command", which Socrates then presents a sound argument against.
Can there be Sophistic arguments about beauty? Certainly. Can there be arguments based on reason that do the same thing? Certainly.
No one will argue that it is good to be sick, and bad to be healthy in the same way that no one will argue it is good to be ugly and bad to be beautiful.
I'm looking back at this and wondering if you meant instead that there was some "perfect" model that all standards of beauty were weighed against, and even then I'll argue that the golden ratio is not a bad measurement, just not absolute. You can have beauty that does not fit the golden ratio, but at the same time, there certainly are signifiers in the terms of what beauty is and is not.
That all being said, yes, there are absolute examples of beauty and the lack of beauty. It's possible to contort our personal taste to believe a literal pig is beautiful, but that does not make the pig actually beautiful.
>>67946261
Yeah, it's like a Family Guy Star Wars movie.
>>67952307
Well yes, we just need to remember it. :^)
If you want to be serious, a far amount of philosophy is going back to the Greeks because the Greeks got into a habit of making solid arguments. Descartes goes back to this, as does Nietzsche.
I don't think anyone has refuted a link between health and beauty.
Were they entirely correct? No. Certain Socratic/Platonic/Socratic elements will have you believe that words have inherent reason to them that must be obeyed and respected. Nietzsche meanwhile will point out that words are sounds we make with our mouths that has agreed meaning, and serve as truces between us.
When you consider that the Greeks were also big on the idea of mythic lies, or things that are not true but represent a simplified idea of the truth so the masses can understand, things start becoming apparent. Namely that Socrates/Plato/Socrates was telling a mythic lie when he said words had inherent meanings. More likely, Nietzsche is accurate in saying that words are peace-treaties, and like the Greeks acknowledges they must be respected. His reason requires more thinking, which not everyone is guaranteed to understand. A mythic lie does not have this problem.
Further than that, we could look to Heidegger and his thinking on words as signifiers, which is based on Nietzsche's thinking but goes further.
Philosophy is by no means ended at the greeks, they are just the basis that so much ties back to. Along with Descartes, they are the stable foundation for so much of our thinking.
>>67952653
>It's possible to contort our personal taste to believe a literal pig is beautiful, but that does not make the pig actually beautiful.
The only criterion by which one can judge aesthetic beauty is by the reaction it elicits. That's it.
>gotta love these infinite stairwells and air traffic backgrounds
The aesthetic enjoyment here comes from our seeming ability to slow down time, in order to enjoy these last moments of wedded bliss...
>she's down like a fat girl in gym class
>>67952540
I don't feel like replying to this. I'm too tired. I'll just continue to reiterate my point that A, human nature isn't canceled under oppressive circumstances (as evidenced by historical examples), and B, even if I were to concede you that point (which i'm not), emotional authenticity isn't tonally congruous with the Star Wars franchise. I'm going to bed. Goodnight.
>>67952816
>I don't think anyone has refuted a link between health and beauty.
I don't see what that has do do with movies at all. You can't point to a film that's healthier than any other and define film quality that way.
But while on the subject of human beauty keep in mind that different societies have had conflicting ideas on things like how thin or fat the ideal human form is, or how much a parson should be tanned. Tanned skin is objectively damaged skin and yet many think it looks good.
>>67946722
I hate it when people try to explain Kylo Ren's depth. He's not deep. He's some bizarre, over-acted caricature of a deep person. Like the scene where he starts trashing the consoles with his lightsaber. It's like the movie is bludgeoning the audience with, "THIS IS A TROUBLED CHARACTER."
>>67953020
Sweet dreams anon. If you're on GMT -6 maybe we'll post at each other again some time.
>>67953224
This.
Driver did a good job with it, but Kylo just isn't a well-written character, which is a shame.
>>67945926
fuck no you stupid fucking teenager
>>67953224
The guy you're replying to didn't say anything about him being deep
>>67953287
t. another stupid fucking teenager
WHEN WILL THEY LEARN
>>67949058
It really did desu, but there's no excuse for trying to rehabilitate the prequels. TPM did some pretty cool stuff with visuals, mixing good practical effects with high quality CGI but the gungans, the kid actor, the glossed over political intrigue and the cluttered climax all stifled what good was there.
I'm not even complaining about space trade routes being an issue. Wars start over much stupider things. But the way it was handled was so moronic. It's there in the background but never explained. We get no indication that this was an exceptional event, does the trade federation do this often? What's the magnitude of the situation? We have no idea what to feel about the entire thing from the word go. Also Anakin should have been Padme's age from the start, you don't need a little kid character for kids to associate with. Little kids DO NOT WANT TO BE LITTLE KIDS when playing with their imaginations. It's sad that George forgot this detail and shoehorned a kid actor in there, ruining Jake Lloyd's life in the process.
Episode 2 was fucking dogshit, one of the worst movies ever made. Completely inexcusable. God awful video game tier CGI fucking everywhere, god awful character scenes all around, some actors do well with what they're given but others don't.
III was DKR tier kino. It was a pretty bad movie that can't keep its tone straight (switching between slapstick and decapitations within 5 minutes), still had a shoehorned romance between two actors with no chemistry and still had bad CGI in a lot of places (though its use was improved over 2, most of the ILM guys quit after TPM so AOTC was basically a learning experience for the new generation) but the density of bad lines and memes is just too great for me to truly criticize this film.
>>67953400
>Little kids DO NOT WANT TO BE LITTLE KIDS when playing with their imaginations.
This is wrong. I remember thinking it was cool as fuck that Anakin was the same age as me. Same thing for Harry Potter in the first 2 or 3 movies
>>67953302
It was implied.
>>67953224
>emotionally unstable murderers lashing out in anger is ludicrous!
Shut up. The character is more than a single outburst. His physical characteristics are thematically consistent with his characterization (staticy voice box, unfinished lightsaber, asymmetrical face), and his emotional instability is just part of that characterization. He's a very 21st century conception of villainy. He's a school shooter, rather than an SS officer like Vader.
>overacted
Fuck off. Driver my 10 times more subtle than Rey and Finn were.
>>67953743
I was surprised that he was depicted as such a Claudius figure, but you're right, they had to create a villain that felt specifically relevant to the 21st Century. In that, they mostly succeeded, yet he doesn't give us the benefit of voiceover narration which would be found in a series like "I, Claudius"...
>>67953743
I agree that his behavior is consistent with his character. I'm saying that his characterization was overly blunt, almost patronizing. Like we, the audience, couldn't understand any kind of characterization unless it was spoon-fed to us. Even his appearance! He's literally trying to be his grandfather! Just look at him!
>>67953743
Nice post.
He's better in SNL than in TFA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaOSCASqLsE
>>67953923
>Even his appearance! He's literally trying to be his grandfather! Just look at him!
Looks more like a poor man's Revan 2bh fampai
>>67953984
go away /v/
that's not canon anymore, just like Jacen Solo.
At this point the only way to make this interesting is to make Rey the villain and have Kylo become the good guy. It would soundly counter the mary sue accusations and actually fit better with the movie.
But of course this is disney and we can't have our stronk independent woman role model for little girls turn evil
It's slightly surprising that they managed to avoid giving Ren a stutter and a limp.
>>67954061
>and actually fit better with the movie.
And how is that?
>>67954061
I actually hope that's where they're going with it.
They've shown Kylo is conflicted. He constantly struggles between the good in him and the bad. And he clearly has an animosity towards both Snoke and the Admiral, which could be setup for a betrayal.
And if Rey really does turn, then that would explain away all the Mary Sue-ness: they had only 1 film to build her up as a great person before they break her down as a villain. Then we can follow Kylo's growth as a Jedi, and Luke's conflict over whether to mentor and be a father figure for the man who slaughtered his hopes and dreams for a new Jedi order in cold blood.
That would be much better, now that I think about it.
>>67953923
Star Wars is a space opera. It's not about subtlety, it's about big gestures. It's very folkloric in that sense. I like that it goes all in and revels in such a larger-than-life villain. The fact that he's drawn in primary colors doesn't make him any less intriguing, it's actually why he's the one aspect of the movie that stands out to everyone.
>>67954183
You have the fuckup being the hero you get behind and the perfect mary sue becoming evil and being a giant to topple instead of a perfect role model princess to root for and admire as she does everything perfectly
I legitimately believe that TPM is the best of the prequels and RotS is overrated for God-knows-why.
>>67954021
Recan was in comics too so he's /co/
Pretty sure there was also a novel
>>67954198
you are really dumb if you think there is any way the only female character in the trilogy will be the villain
rey and finn literally cannot turn evil
>>67954061
You think Rey will become a sort of Agrippina The Younger? Killing her brother Caligula and shacking up with Kylo in order to put her spawn upon the throne?
I just re marathoned Phantom Menace for the first time in a long time and I can honestly say that the podrace was better by far than anything in TFA.....even the Maul fight was better than anything in TFA.
>>67954213
So your plan is to counter bad writing with even worse writing
>>67954198
>that would explain away all the Mary Sue-ness: they had only 1 film to build her up as a great person before they break her down as a villain.
So, girl anakin. TFA sucked because it was a retread of the OT. The obvious solution is to rehash the prequels instead.
>>67954405
TFA was nothing if not original, right?
>>67953228
Why are you replying for me?
Having just seen TFA, I'd agree with the OP. TFA is quite bad. Not sure what movie you guys saw.
>>67954227
Yeah. ROTS is as bad as Clones.
>>67954347
>implying an unprecedented plot twist like that wouldn't be extremely daring
I realize it will never happen because >disney but don't lie to yourself
>>67954405
bitch please it's not like it was a plot twist or anything you knew from the start that little shit would be Vader, it was marketed as such.
>>67954442
>ROTS is as bad as Clones.
Not quite. Anakin's side of AoTC is the main weakness of the film. His side of RotS is still weaker than Kenobi's, but he has time with Sheev who is a genuinely good actor with workable lines.
>>67954227
tbqh, mi familia, I agree.
RotS has very little in it that I like. Most of the scenes are garbage, the cinematography is garbage, the dialogue remains garbage from #2, and the plot, for the most part, is garbage.
Some scenes stand out, like the Opera scene, but most of it is pure schlock.
TPM is actually pretty OK. I'm not sure I'd say it's better than TFA, but it is definitely better than any of the other prequels. At least it tells a coherent story with a number of good and imaginative scenes and some actually OK dialogue.
>>67954319
I didn't say that Disney would do it, because unless this new director has huge balls, it ain't happening, but I think it would make for one of the most interesting, memorable stories in the Star Wars universe, and probably would create one of the more unique and original films in a long time, given the amount of sequel/prequel/capeshit garbage out there right now.
>>67954405
except that we knew Anakin would be Vader, which means they didn't need to set up that Anakin would be great for a surprise reveal--since there was no surprise. It'd be miles better if it were an actual twist, since the Mary Sue-ness would actually be relevant setup.
>>67954447
>unprecedented d
Literally female Anakin
V > IV > VI > III > VII > II > I
You literally cannot disagree with this
>>67954564
literally read the second half of my post, the prequels were MARKETED as the origin story of Darth Vader. Obi-Wan was always the "hero" of the movie.
Making the obvious hero become evil would be unprecedented.
>>67954574
I can, and I will.
V>IV>VI>VII>I>III>II
>>67954574
>III better than VII
When will this meme end?
>>67954608
It's the same exact story with the only difference being the WHAT A TWEEST moment. Still literally female Anakin. Your ideas are still bad.
>>67954613
>III is worse than Jar Jar Binks, NOW THIS IS PODRACING, worst overuse of CGI in a movie ever
Literally the only thing decent about that movie was Duel of the Fates
>rankings
Ultimately irrelevant.
TFA failed to be better than any movie from the original trilogy, just like the prequels before it failed.
>prequels
>let's revive the franchise to make worse movies
>sequels
>let's revive the franchise to make worse movies
>>67954665
I actually is,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hoXNXSpmng
his is perhaps the only time in the series other than Luke against Vader in V and Luke in the throne room in VI that has real tension. VII certainly didn't have that, and I'll be fucken damned if I had it.
IV>V>VI>I>VII>II>III
>>67954689
It's also shot on film, bears actual resemblance to a Star Wars movie and is at least trying. 2 and 3 are just animated slogs of noise.
>>67953923
Nothing about Star Wars was ever subtle. They're not those types of movies and never were. They were always simplistic and very straightforward in their morals
>>67954676
Anakin actually fucked up occasionally, his character was written to be flawed, and the entire plot was developed around showing his descent into darkness. TFA looks like it's building up Rey in a Luke-tier storyline and it by having a twist in the second movie, it's a hell of a lot different than having 3 movies build up to a betrayal for the last 30 minutes of the movie.
It's a similar concept but it's totally different in execution. If you break things down enough everything is "literally" the same
>>67954198
I don't see Kylo going good. Pablo whatshisface canon dude seems to see him as just an evil asshole based on his tweets.
>>67954574
This is the canon correct order.
>>67954810
You know... you're right. It's a conclusion that I've been trying to deny for a long time, but TFA really brought it out: Star Wars is a shitty franchise. It's terrible. It's made for eight-year-olds and man-children.
>>67954893
A movie doesn't need to be complex to be good.
>>67954832
If they don't build up anything and only have her suddenly sprout a mustache and start twirling it, it will be even worse than Anakin. So, good job, I guess.
>>67954786
It's fucking nothing. A scene like that would have emotional weight and gravitas within the context of a story with engaging characters, but it's in the context of a movie where an idiot who gets tricked into being a bad guy is worried about his barefoot and pregnant housewife 'cause of a nightmare. It's shit. It's laughably pretentious and self-serious. Han Solo's death carried far more emotional weight, and mostly because it's actually well-acted.
Also, Anakin's scenes are reversed there 'cause Lucas's incessant need for "muh visual poetry"
>>67954802
>bears actual resemblance to a Star Wars movie
How so? By having an excruciating character that was designed for cheap laughs from five year olds? By having CGI so fake that it was laughable?
Don't think so
It might interesting to frame Rey as a strong character whose main weakness is a infirm grasp of politics... So that she has Anakin's strengths but not Padme's.
Then a decrepit Gungan could return to Coruscant, ingratiating himself with Rey, but also sensing that he could go press further with her and kylo?
>>67954810
This. Kylo Ren has more nuance than 98% of the characters and he's barely nuanced at all. Star Wars was never complex and never had to be. They're just some fun little flicks everybody went way too nuts over.
>>67954940
I don't know, Rey has more reason to turn than Anakin did. Especially since unlike Anakin, she hasn't had the Jedi up her butt since young childhood. She grew up abandoned on a shit planet. That's a good way to put darkness in anyone.
>>67954689
yes, actually.
The podracing was great, Duel of the Fates was great, I actually liked the majority of the characters, it uses and interesting and revolutionary mix of practical and special effects, and it actually made an effort to seem like a Star Wars film, a vibe I never got for II or III.
What's RotS got? The Opera scene, some pieces of the final fight, the end with Vader--if you can ignore the NOOOOOO!, and a few good scenes in a few of the battles. The opening section also was not terrible, but also not that great. The only characters who were actually good and well-acted were Sheev and Kenobi, both of whom got woefully little screentime, with far too much given to Herschlag and Christensen for their unbelievable and hackneyed romance.
>>67954961
No, anon. They're bad films. It's okay, you can admit it.
>>67954946
The way the story is structured, how it's shot, the framing, etc. It is very close to the original film, albeit watered down. The other two prequels are just unhinged cartoons which employ some of the laziest visual methods ever seen in a major studio production. They are at complete odds with the original trilogy visually.
>>67954961
Honestly, complexity and nuance aren't the same thing, and nothing about TFA was nuanced.
TFA was not good.
>>67950051
I'm from /v/. I've seen a very similar thing happen with a game that came out in 2006, Oblivion. For years the game was reviled as a broken trainwreck, but now that the 10 year olds who played it are now adults, I've seen it praised endlessly.
>>67955184
Yeah, it was great.
>>67954945
>Han Solo's death carried far more emotional weight
Thoroughly disagree. Not only were we all expecting it, but it was clear desperation for Abrams to have a near exact parallel to IV. What a surprise! The Mentor figure for the protagonist dies in the first installment, can't think of where I heard that before. Also:
>Kylo Ren
>Well acted
He comes off as a little bitch, and not intimidating in the slightest. The internal emotional/family conflict seems fake.
I'm not sure how you can say Anakin's scenes take themselves to seriously. Many critics say that the prequels wern't serious enough, and didn't have the same emotional gravitas that the originals had. With an tense Williams score (his work in VII was subpar at best), and perhaps the best acting by Christensen in the whole series.
>>67955083
They're not bad if you accept them for what they are. But for decades people have been propping them up like they're truly deserving of being considered some of the greatest films of all time. They're flicks, nothing more and nothing less.
Star Wars was always shit. Grow the fuck up.
>>67955213
Oh God, Oblivion. What total fucking garbage. There hasn't been a good Elder Scrolls game since Morrowind.
>>67955266
Modern movies are garbage. It's all about who has the best CG and the most progressive viewpoint now.
>>67955035
having been brought up with a jedi up your butt is probably a better reason to resent jedi than growing up on a shit planet
>>67955270
>I have never played Skyrim
>>67955270
Millenials have been praising it endlessly while shitting on Morrowind.
One day people are going to say Skyrim was the best game but I guess it's okay as long as people finally realize why Oblivion was shit again.
>>67955083
If you think the original Star Wars are bad films, that's fine, but you have to differentiate a little between bad films that actually have craft behind them, like the first two SW films, and the sort of bad film that is TFA, which is little more than a meandering advertisement.
>>67955035
> unlike Anakin, she hasn't had the Jedi up her butt since young childhood.
That's kind of what led Anakin to turn though; the Jedi were stuck up cunts who wouldn't recognize his marriage to Padme, so of course he couldn't turn to them for help. Rey has no reason to resent any of the good guys.
>>67945926
Yeah definitely, at least it had the stones to try something new
>>67955414
Phantom menace is just as much a copy of ANH as TFA is
>>67955266
Thanks Eric Harris.
>>67955328
In part true. Big studio films are plumbing new depths every year. They don't make em like they used to.
>>67955344
You don't know what a milennial is, do you? Hint: there were millennials in their early 20s when Morrowind came out.
>>67955336
>i have never played TES: Mod Manager
morrowind was endlessly better and still has one of the best stories of any video game along with baldur's gate
>>67955435
I gotta disagree with you there.
>>67955230
The film signals that it's going to happen. It's not that it was a surprise, it's that it was well-handled.
>He comes off as a little bitch, and not intimidating in the slightest.
You're a massive fucking pleb if you think that the efficacy of a villain should be based on how intimidating he comes across. It's a Darth Vader bias; as much as you deride TFA for being too similar to ANH, you basically just want another Vader-esque villain. But there are other criteria by which one can judge a tragic character like Kylo Ren. He doesn't have to be scary in order to be enthralling.
>and perhaps the best acting by Christensen in the whole series.
Lol. Lucas had to play the scene backwards to produce a watchable performance.
>>67955036
>I actually liked the majority of the characters
Young Anakin was poorly acted it was perhaps the worst performance by Portman in her entire career, Jar Jar was nothing short of atrocious and the Visceroys were laughable at best. Darth Maul was the only decent character and he got sweet fuck all screentime. Kenobi was decent as well.
>it uses and interesting and revolutionary mix of practical and special effects,
Highly generous of you. He overloaded the screen with CGI that made it look so incredibly fake that it was difficult to take it seriously. I mean just look at this, this is perhaps something you'd expect from a Youtube channel owner, not a multi-million dollar production.
On top of the things you just said, there is this scene which as I said to another poster, is perhaps the only time there is tension in the prequels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hoXNXSpmng
>>67955465
Not that guy but holy shit how can you not see the sarcasm dripping from his post
>>67955472
Dude the movie fucking ends on a staircase celebrating a skywalker blowing up a space station
Did you forget the poetry meme
https://youtu.be/JDga4MTmX0c
The Force Awakens is a better movie overall, but it doesn't have much to add to the Star Wars universe other than creating some nice characters with human flaws. I want more worldbuilding and less retreading. I want to know what happened in that 30 year gap without the aid of comics and games.
>>67946261
>The Force Awakens is a boring, dull exposition movie filled with the worst type of pop culture references we've seen so many times over and is a chore to watch because there is no heart or soul with it due to being nothing more than a cash in gimmick on the current flavour of the decade growing faux nerd culture trend.
Boom one and done.
Fuck the shills.
>>67955535
>every fucking Star Wars trilogy starts on a desert planet
I want off this ride
>>67955513
Ground battles don't make sense in such a setting, and the air fighters are just there to stalemate one another.
>>67955472
TPM has the same the exact same basic outline as ANH. It ends the same, it has a similar climax, a similar lead character with a nearly identical origin story. A boy from Tatooine leaves to train as a Jedi with an older master. The master dies and the boy blows up a large structure to save the day before getting an award in a large ceremony at the end. Synopsis for both Episodes I and IV.
>>67955535
Okay that's one scene lifted from ANH. You can find quite a few more of those in TPM I bet. But TPM does not follow ANH as closely as TFA does. TFA does poetry of literally every scene.
>>67955610
fuck dude Episode I's story is literally Episode IV's. See>>67955597
TFA copies plot points, TPM copies its entire structure.
>>67955414
t. eenager
>>67955610
Yeah and TFA does plenty of its own original shit, youre just cherrypicking because youre a lucas shill
>>67955507
>efficacy of a villain should be based on how intimidating he comes across
If a villain is not intimidating in any way, then he has to be complex, therefore the audience can sympathise with him. Whether it was just poor acting or a poor script, Ren is neither intimidating nor a relatable figure.
>He turned bad when training with Luke, let's completely brush over the fact WHY he turned because we want to create a villain with connections to the protagonists
It's poorly explained and makes for a poor villain.
The thing is this: TPM is a film that attempts to be a big calculated crowd pleaser, and it falls on its ass. TFA attempts the same thing and is wholly successful. Both are hugely derivative of the OT. For my money it actually makes TFA a much less interesting movie. Not that I really like either, but TPM, as watered down as it is, is still something. TFA is just water.
>>67955597
That doesn't account for literally everything that happened in the first 45 minutes alone.
>>67955659
I don't remember anything new from TFA.
Only /tv/ will defend the cesspool that is the prequels. Terrible acting, terrible, directing, bad cgi, poor action scenes, atrocious dialogue. Literally the only good thing was the music. TFA was average but it wasn't a shitty ass turd like episode 1 and 2 were. You guys have memed yourself into liking the prequels and I find it hilarious after you spent so long hating on them but now all of a sudden Lucas is a God.
>>67955784
>I don't remember anything new from TFA
>rathtar setpiece
>First Order nazi rally
>flying a tie fighter
>lightsaber battle in a snowy forest
>characters who idolize the protagonists of the OT because they literally live in the ruins of the Galactic Civil War
>Stormtroopers with personalities
>A villain who idolizes his heritage in order to make up for his own self loathing, yet actually hates being evil, and murders the source of his conflict hoping it will make him stronger
Fuck off, nigger
>>67955784
Stormtrooper who got tired of stormtrooping, red lightsaber villain is a pathetic beta instead of the most badass dude in the galaxy, and....uh.......umm......I dunno I gues Oscar Isaac was kinda cool
>>67955703
>then he has to be complex,
Thank goodness that Kylo Ren is a more complex villain than Vader was in ANH, and enthralling precisely because he's a weak and self-conscious fanboy. He's almost relatable in his pathetic incompetence, as opposed to Vader who's little more than an icon of bad.
>let's completely brush over the fact WHY he turned because we want to create a villain with connections to the protagonists
We didn't know why Vader turned bad until 5th movies later. FUCK. Your double standards are infuriating. Did you seriously want more expository dialogue in TFA?
>>67955896
This is about right.
>>67955858
BUT SPINNING IS A GOOD TRICK
>>67955858
>>67955784
>I don't remember anything new from TFA.
New lead characters, as opposed to younger version of preexisting ones like in TPM.
>That doesn't account for literally everything that happened in the first 45 minutes alone.
So TPM is more original because its plot similarities don't start until 1/3 into the film? It's still the same story.
Who in hell does this Kylo Ren think he is?
some kind of fucking god? he is weak as fuck, even with his injuries he shouldn't lose to someone who HAS LITERALLY JUST LEARNED THAT SHE HAS THE FORCE
Wants to be like his grandpa? He should get gud first
>>67955784
>That doesn't account for literally everything that happened in the first 45 minutes alone.
Most of the first 45 minutes is bullshit filler
>>67945926
nah. force awakens was as good as the originals. come at me.
>>67955995
Can we autistically debate powerlevels now? Kylo Ren did at least two new tricks that I'd never seen a jedi do before this movie: stopping a blaster shot in midair and ripping info directly out of someone's head. Based on these I would have thought he was super powerful but he went down like a bitch in the end.
How can TFA even compete with this masterpiece?
https://youtu.be/7pD2bjNCaUQ
>>67955914
>Thank goodness that Kylo Ren is a more complex villain than Vader was in ANH
The point that you're failing to grasp is that what Vader lacked in complexity (at least in IV) he made up in intimidation, while Ren had neither. James Earl Jones' voice along with the the costume make him the very figure of the ruthlessness of the empire. What's more we didn't know then who Vader was and why he turned bad, leaving the great reveal for V. We already understand the basic motives for Ren although they are poorly explained and he cannot be sympathised with.
We didn't know why Vader turned bad until 5th movies later. FUCK. Your double standards are infuriating. Did you seriously want more expository dialogue in TFA?
Either you tell the audience the character's motives or you don't. Abrams takes a halfhearted approach and puts himself in the middle, making or an unlikable villain.
>>67956096
He was also injured and emotionally distressed. Mary Sue couldn't touch him if he was in prime shape.
