Can we have a nice discussion of TFA and the future of the franchise?
/pleb/ board when?
NORMIES GET OUT!
>plebs actually think Star Wars is some avant garde level franchise
Hey does anyone on /tv/ have that blu-ray cinematic documentary download available
If SW is so pleb why can't you anons criticize it without resorting to a Max Landis tweet or /pol/ memes?
>>67891327
I only watch art and indie films/ experimental so probably 99% of movies that are played in theaters don't interest me. It may be good as hell, I haven't seen it. But it doesn't interest me.
>>67891386
If this was true it would be literally impossible for you to post on this board more than once a month
>>67891417
There are artfilm threads once in a while. Mostly here for the memes though.
>>67891179
what's your favorite pairing, /tv/?
>>67891386
>he has no friends
>people cross the street to avoid him
>thinks he is a victim
>>67891179
The future of the franchise is a new capeshit movie each year.
>>67891179
I really want to see Darth Vader and Sheev in Rogue One. Ian McDiarmid is still alive and hopefully James Earl Jones isn't old enough to do a few Darth Vader lines.
It's becoming marvel-ized and eventually will become dull and uninspiring.
>implying TFA wasn't full and unispiring
>>67894726
JEJ is voicing Vader in the cartoon so it's probable.
>>67892895
reylo
>>67894797
>It's becoming marvel-ized and eventually will become dull and uninspiring.
>>67891179
Zero characters from primary demo, and as people slowly realize they are getting a Kia with a BMW logo slapped onto it, and the magical 'new demo' fails to materialize as girls inexplicably still prefer girly stuff, it will begin to take on the Kia brand image too. There is a long tail on past glory and JJ + Diz will pump it dry. That length of time is identical to how long primary demo continues to think they are in a BMW M3 despite diving a rebranded Kia Sorento.
>>67892895
poefinn
Now's the best time to be a Star Wars fan t.b.h familia.
TFA was great, and we're pretty much guaranteed to never get a prequel-tier shitshow ever again because they'll always exist as tutorials on how not to make a SW movie.
>>67897600
>a prequel-tier shitshow
well, this came close
>>67897600
The actual reason it's a great time to be a star wars fan is that they're going to be pumping out shit, but competently made enough that it's not unpleasant to watch. Then afterwards you can get way more pleasure out of mocking all the stupid bullshit than from actually watching the movie.
All true star wars fans love making fun of star wars even more than watching star wars.
>>67897648
I liked it more after second viewing. It didn't feel nearly as long or awkward.
Abrams and Kennedy might be on solid ground here Thematically, but it's been said that their characters and plots are rushed. The motifs are some of the clearest ever devised and they do deserve points for coming up with unique characters, but the current leads have nothing to discover, to achieve, or to lose. Unlike the OT, there isn't a well-progressed reversal of fortune in the end.
Themes are able to make good use of intertextuality, as I'd argue TFA did by setting the characters in high relief against the OT. One thing that wasn't explored was to make use of C-3PO here... that character could have relayed more of the themes to the audience in a simple form of diegesis. Give us a break from Finn, or Rey and have the droids give a few objective observations. C-3PO is more like Ricky Gervais in top form.
Theme is quite a prevalent aspect of Eastern European literature, while in the West there's a demand for highly-structured Plotting (an overall conceit and subtextual mirroring) and strongly symbolic or archetypal Characters which compel everyone else to orient themselves around them and their ideas. Kylo Ren might be a good example of the latter, but he seems somewhat inconsequential.
>Prequels come out
>gaylords bitch and whine "these aren't the star wars movies I grew up with" or "It doesn't feel like star wars"
>Force awakens comes out
>literally exactly the same movie they grew up with, feels EXACTLY like the original star wars
>gaylords bitch and whine "It's a rip off of a new hope" or "JJ is hack, the story isn't original"
You star wars "fans" can eat a dick
Lucas did something original with the prequels and everyone hated him for it
I totally expected force awakens to be a nostalgia trip engineered to be successful, because the rest of their trillion dollar investment rides on this first movie.
http://darkieneko.deviantart.com/art/Kylo-Ren-601210909
lawl
>>67898872
gaaaaay
When he return to being the insult comic we know?
http://youtu.be/AKmDy4IW12A
>>67897648
>that scene
what was jewjew thinking?
>>67898746
Abrams played it safe in The Force Awakens, being careful not to have a repeat of the prequels but it still didn't live up the original's legacy, even though it tried its hardest to be a Star Wars movie it just didn't feel like a Star Wars movie, boring plot, boring universe, boring new characters, Han's death was just tacked in at the end so people would talk about it more and it wouldn't be easily forgotten. The worst thing about it was how the entire thing was just none stop pop culture references, it was like watching an episode of The Big Bang Theory or Family Guy, LOOK! Those things existed in the OT, here's Han and Chewie, lol Han's dead, there you go.
>>67898972
wouldn't so bad if the actors were moving
>>67891179
TFA was the cinematic equivalent of the Japanese asset price bubble popping, and the franchise's future is about as promising as the Japanese economy that followed.
>>67897648
Literally how? Because it's a helicopter pan shot?
I don't understand how people find this triggering.
>>67898746
>feels EXACTLY like the original star wars
>droid, please!
>bb8 flipping the bird
>loud annoying cgi setpieces
>old gay han and leia
neck yourself
>tfw they are going to mass produce these bland knocks for the next 20 years
>>67899110
>>67899086
You are a stupid pleb motherucker
Go back and watch the force awakens
Look at the framing, the filters used, the composition
Most of the shots are identical to what you would find in a new hope
But you can only cite obvious plot elements because you lack the ability to think critically
>>67891179
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs3sVrm_W4o
>>67898746
Just because Lucas did something original with the prequels, that doesn't automatically make them good. They're shit movies full of total garbage, and he failed at "trying something original." Star Wars fans are literally manbabies. They're men who are stuck in adolesence, but this is becoming more and more common as media influences society to be more infantile as a whole. This is the future you chose.
>>67899194
>watching first year film students forget that movies are just a medium for telling stories and pretend that two movies feel the same because they use the same filters
jesus christ
Star Wars lost any semblance of interest or originality after 1980. The Force Awakens, despite its flaws, comes the closest to possessing the same tone and aesthetic that made the first two movies in the series so good. It's also the best acted film in the series by far, and the second most competently directed after Empire. The hyperbolic hatred its garnered here proves how memetic opinions are: a hack writer mentions the trope "Mary Sue" and the entire board - who are predisposed to hating the movie given its female and black leads - parrots that opinion to a ridiculous degree. Everyone who posts here is shit.
>>67899487
Friendly reminder that Max landis talked about Rey's problems much later than the board did.
I know it's hard to remember, it wasn't the top controversial post of the month
>>67899556
That's is such fucking bullshit. He made the "Mary Sue" post either the day the movie came out, or the week between it came out and Christmas.
>>67891179
Of course we can, OP.
TFA is a bad movie as a standalone or compared to the rest in the series. Disney will continue to make Star Wars movies as bad as or worse than TFA unless profits are harmed, at which point they might demand a real movie rather than pathetic rehashes with worse actors and no new jokes.
TFA is what happens when Disney says to everyone involved in the project, "MAKE SURE THEY KNOW IT'S STAR WARS." This is what you get when people are so insecure about what they're going to produce that form comes before function. Why do the Sean Connery James Bond movies work well despite following similar plots? Because the actor and everyone else involved gain confidence and come to realize that what they're doing works. Old plot elements and themes don't have to be shoehorned in because they know they're good enough to work freely and produce something good. And if the product changes slightly, so what. TFA is so insecure that it had to reach back in time and pull out Hamill and Ford and other washed up people. Meanwhile the Star Wars Universe is gigantic.
>>67899556
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWRg5fddADw
This video was posted 3 days after the movie came out, and this was days after he made the Mary Sue post.
>>67899859
Someone post his dad flashing his dick
>>67899627
>>67899859
And /tv/ was complaining about her WHEN the movie came out you fucking retard.
But then again, /r movies probably wasn't linking here at that point.
>>67899808
We all knew they had to bring Han back, even though hey waited too long to make Episode VII. That's not Disney's fault, I'm sure they would have loved to have made TFA back in 1997.
>it doesn't hold a candle to Jedi though.
>>67899966
>And /tv/ was complaining about her WHEN the movie came out you fucking retard.
He made the Mary Sue post WHEN the movie came out, you fucking mongoloid. On the 17th, the Thursday with advanced screenings.
>>67892895
>>67900037
gotta read it
>>67899086
>actually believing that bb8 was flipping the bird
jesus you're retarded
>>67899487
Phantom menace had ewan mcgregor and liam neeson in lead roles. It was very well acted. Portman was fine. Child anakin acted like a child. TFA was not the best acted; granted, the script by no means allowed for great acting.
TFA is a shit movie. I got about 40 minutes in before I had to stop watching.
>>67899086
>>bb8 flipping the bird
>>67897648
this fucking scene was out of the map
>>67900023
You are arguing against the basis of 4Chan for the basis of reddit.
100000 people come here every day, opinions are shared and morph and literally anyone who thought about the movie as they watched it realized that Rey only has two extremely minor and controlled struggles.
Just because one person on social media says something that is later reiterated by a populace does not make that person the "origin of the idea".
On reddit, sure. His post would be at he top of the page for everyone to read and have limited opinions on.
You're one of those people who thinks #boycottstarwars was made by black-haters, aren't you?
>>67900347
The miracle of the Phantom Menace is that it was capable of getting perfectly capable actors to give some of the most transcendently awful performances in mainstream cinematic history. The notion that it was "very well acted" is so ridiculous that it's not even worth dignifying with a response.
>I got about 40 minutes in before I had to stop watching.
You're not allowed to have an opinion on it. Stop posting. The flaws in the film don't really become apparent until the second half; you stopped watching it because /tv/ told you that you should hate it which colored your opinion of it from the start.
>>67899487
If your best argument against the people who dislike the movie is that someone else said it first, you might want to reconsider your life.
>>67899808
>he's never seen Never Say Never Again...
Kersh made a TFA movie too
>>67899086
They made a much more conscious effort in tfa with regards to humor, whereas in the originals things were mostly unintentionally funny
But man you are a fucking idiot if you cant realize bb8 was giving the black ape guy a thumbs up
>>67900457
No one on this board used the term "Mary Sue" until Max Landis made his post. Arguing otherwise is fucking dishonest. The fact that the videos where he rips the film apart have hundreds of thousands of views is evidence of the memetic quality of his critique. And the fact that the initial reviews for the film, even the negative ones, don't really mention Rey's competence support my argument.
>You're one of those people who thinks #boycottstarwars was made by black-haters, aren't you?
No, it was also sexists and anti-semites.
>>67900527
>who dislike the movie is that someone else said it first,
No, i'm saying that people aren't forming their own opinions, they're parroting. It happens all the time. It's why objectively great films like the Revenant get shat on due to some initial popular opinions regarding it, and mediocre films like Fury Road receive exaggerated praise due to some false notions about practical effects and old-school filmmaking.
>/tv/ still pretends to dislike TFA
Why do I still come to this shithole?
>>67899071
They are staring at each other for literally like 10 minutes saying nothing. It's so obviously trying to be iconic and impactful, but it feels completely limp. It's like when Cumberbatch reveals he's Khan in Into Darkness. They intentionally insert a pause and dramatic music to emphasize how mindblowing such a revelation must surely be. But it isn't. It's just stupid.
I'll grant you it's certainly not the worst scene in the movie.
>>67900913
>10 minutes
It was like 20 seconds and the scene worked aside from that helicopter shot. Stop it.
>>67900852
So, what's Lando up to now in the storyline? Will he appear in the next film?
How many people do you think watched TFA but are completely clueless about Rey being Luke's daughter?
It didn't feel like a Star Wars movie even more then the prequels.
>It didn't have the music
>the world building was atrocious even compared to the prequels, nothing stood out
>the creature designs were objectively worse
>the new leads were terribad, especially Finn who made it seem like a new Avengers flick
>the plot was nearly identical to ANH except with a tacked on fighter vs death star fight that literally nobody cared about and carried no weight like the Death Star run did
>main character is flawless and unrelateable unlike Luke
This is getting kind of intense...
>>67901014
>those designs
What the fuck was JJ thinking? Holy shit
>>67899194
>Look at the framing, the filters used, the composition
Not at all alike except in the shots that are explicit throwbacks. As soon as any action erupts onto the screen (about every 5 minutes at most) is immediately moves into JJ's standard shooting style: shaky cam, snap zooms, a constantly moving camera, objects that zip in and out of frame every second. It's absolutely awful.
>>67901014
>>It didn't have the music
Except that it did. The score for the film is great.
>>67901088
There are 2 shaky cam shots in the entire film, and one snap zoom. It was mostly steady cam and dolly shots. Nice meme, though.
>>67900941
Seconds can be an eternity.
>>67900941
>i don't understand hyperbole
It didn't work at all. Luke was mentioned in the very beginning of the film and the basically forgotten for the duration. There was no meaningful build up to this meeting at all. Literally, you could only care about this if you were personally invested in seeing Hamill on screen again. Just like how the only people who gave a shit about Cumberbatch being Khan were Trekkies excited that they were tossed a reference.
Nothing in the film supports such a lengthy shot.
>>67901129
The scores were weak or utilized poorly.
>>67897648
>mfw someone thought that was a good idea
TFA had its good moments, but fuck it had some terrible ones.
I thought TFA was better than the prequels but not very good. It has some good parts, but the move as a whole just doesn't work very well. Hopefully VIII plays off the good parts and makes something interesting.
>>67900526
Literally the first time I ever went on /tv/ was about 1.5 months ago.
And I'll explain in simple words what I disliked.
1. Gather up townspeople in desert town. Movie has humongous budget but they make this scene feel very small and unimportant. Contrast with a new hope where Vader's boarding of the Rebel ship feels like the most insane shit that ever happened.
2. Within the first four minutes we have an x wing and a guy using the lower turret on it (do x wings even have those drop down turrets) to kill storm troopers (iveseenthisbefore.jpg, but whatever).
3. Guy yelling at droid as if it's a person.
4. I'm supposed to feel bad for dying stormtrooper/why is there blood on his hand? Don't blasters cauterize everything?
5. Is this Vietnam or Tatooine?
The movie is just extremely contrived. If anything it's more a Star Wars remake than it is a sequel. Same jokes, many of the same characters; lazy all around minus the wow factor of special effects that are ahead of their time.
Why don't you be specific? How was liam Neeson's acting in Phantom Menace bad? I think you're the one parroting opinions....
>>67897691
I love that at least someone has the correct attitude.
The trouble is that even TFA is too shit to be rewatchable at all. I mean I didn't even get 20 minutes into the Bluray rip before skipping ahead to the lulzy bits.
>>67901232
I saw the film twice in theaters. I got misty-eyed both times during that scene, and the audiences clapped both times. You can't judge this stuff objectively, but there's absolutely no denying that it worked for many people.
>Luke was mentioned in the very beginning of the film and the basically forgotten for the duration.
IT WAS THE IMPETUS FOR THE ENTIRE STORY. He's mentioned throughout, the map to his whereabouts is the film's McGuffin, both Rey and Finn treat him and mythological status with reverence. You feel Luke's presence throughout the entire film. He was more of a character than either Finn or Poe, and with almost no screen time.
>>67901303
the great part is you know they just did one take because they gave the actors no directions other than "stand there holding that position".
if they'd tried to have Rey behave naturally it instantly would have made the timing hard to get right, so they didn't bother.
>>67900817
/tv/ is a shithole but it's not all pretend. I sincerely dislike a lot of what VIi does.
>>67901178
No, it wasn't. Watch any scene with ships in it and they are zipping all the fuck over the place. The camera is either pursuing them at high speed or stuck on the ground as they rocket in and out of the frame. Fast cuts everywhere. There's so much shit going on in any given frame you can barely tell what you're supposed to be watching.
Compare any of the ship battles to what is scene in any of those in the original trilogy and it'll be obvious as shit.
>>67901342
I don't mean to sound insulting, but you're probably autistic. These are all absurd nitpicks. Actually, not even. They're elements that make the film better.
>5. Is this Vietnam or Tatooine?
Stop posting please.
>>67901433
>one take
Wouldn't that be the shit if they had a blooper reel, and Daisy and Mark are doing the scene but start laughing during the first few takes because of how awkward that scene turned out to be. Seems like something that would happen where you just start laughing after a certain point while staring into someone's eyes for an extended amount of time. In the defense of Jew Jew and whoever wrote that scene, it sounds okay on paper, but >>67900913 hits the folly of the scene very well.
>>67901484
There are many quick cuts, but there's one snap zoom and two shaky cam shots. A camera that moves isn't the same as "shaky cam." Also, you can complain about the quick cuts but this film has the longest uncut shot of x-wings fighting tie fighters in Star Wars history.
>>67901488
Do you really not understand how this shit is jarring? In the first couple minutes, I'm being told by Abrams, "THE DEATH OF THIS STORMTROOPER IS SIGNIFICANT. THIS OTHER ONE FEELS REAL BAD. LOOK AT THAT BLOOD. LET ME GIVE YOU A SAVING PRIVATE RYAN OMAHA BEACH STYLE SHOT RIGHT HERE." But then 10 minutes later it's back to "LOL STORMTROOPERS CAN'T SHOOT STRAIGHT AND MAKE FUNNY NOISES WHEN THEY DIE." Do you not understand how fucked up that is? Simply bad moviemaking.
>>67901404
>I saw the film twice in theaters. I got misty-eyed both times during that scene, and the audiences clapped both times. You can't judge this stuff objectively, but there's absolutely no denying that it worked for many people.
Like I said, people who were personally invested before even entering the theatre. Not people who are looking at the actual film.
>IT WAS THE IMPETUS FOR THE ENTIRE STORY.
And? It was immediately forgotten the moment anything started to happen. That's the difference between TFA and ANH. They both involve smuggling some macguffin to the rebellion so they can fight the imperials, but in the latter it's treated as meaningful instead of an afterthought. The Death Star was the primary threat from beginning to end, and everything the protagonists did was in an effort to end that threat.
TFA is constantly taking detours that have nothing to do with this search for Luke that is apparently very important. We're never made to feel why it's so important. It's just that people say it is, so it must be. Whereas we see exactly what the Death Star is capable of and understand why it's such a threat.
>You feel Luke's presence throughout the entire film. He was more of a character than either Finn or Poe, and with almost no screen time.
You can't possibly be this fucking stupid.
The use of keyhole fade outs:
https://youtu.be/8NAhAEQUk8M
>>67901530
I remember hearing that Mark was meant to have dialogue in the final scene, but either his acting was a bit wooden or the dialogue didn't seem to be working. So (again) they just gave up and did something easier.
Film-making at it's finest, honestly.
>>67891386
This post is a literal fedora.
>>67901404
>You feel Luke's presence throughout the entire film. He was more of a character than either Finn or Poe, and with almost no screen time.
Potential for new meme right here. Hamill's performance was actually Silence of the Lambs Hopkins-like and he probably should have gotten the Oscar instead of Dicaprio.
>>67901557
>There are many quick cuts, but there's one snap zoom and two shaky cam shots.
Never claimed anything else.
>A camera that moves isn't the same as "shaky cam."
Never claimed that it was.
>Also, you can complain about the quick cuts but this film has the longest uncut shot of x-wings fighting tie fighters in Star Wars history.
Never made any comments on long shots as being a defining characteristic of Star Wars.
Do you want me to repost what I've already said? You haven't seemed to understood it. If you honestly believe that the composition and camera work of TFA is the same as that of any of the original trilogy you're a fucking idiot. The clips are readily available on youtube, there's no excuse for such a fundamental misunderstanding.
>>67898504
MY NIGGA!
They do seriously need more C-3PO.
>>67901404
>IT WAS THE IMPETUS FOR THE ENTIRE STORY
uh, no it wasn't.
most of the story was about escaping Jakku and the Death Star III. Luke was literally forgotten for most of the film and then remembered only at the end, whereupon Leia, his sister, doesn't apparently want to see him and just send Rey. It's fucked.
>>67901655
>Like I said, people who were personally invested before even entering the theatre.
Oh, like the general middle American audience a week after the film came out?
>It was immediately forgotten the moment anything started to happen.
That's completely absurd. Our insight into Rey and Finn's perception of the events of the OT come from someone mentioning Luke. Han Solo being brought into the main narrative comes from Rey mentioning Luke. Luke is the first word of the opening crawl. He's what Leia and Han talk about when they meet. He's the reason most of the events of the film occur. He couldn't possibly be a larger presence. You forgetting about his existence is more of an insight into your own inability to keep two thoughts in your brain at once than the film's need for more exposition.
>>67901577
>>67901669
That's actually some pretty interesting shit, fampai.
>>67901723
>>67901631
>But then 10 minutes later it's back to "LOL STORMTROOPERS CAN'T SHOOT STRAIGHT AND MAKE FUNNY NOISES WHEN THEY DIE."
A Wilhelm scream doesn't negate the seriousness of a scene, or remove the stakes in a given situation. Stop being such a fucking autist.
>>67898746
If Lucas tried something new and different, then why did he include multiple thematic callbacks to the original trilogy? Why did he have multiple characters from the past films showing up unnecessarily, such as how C3PO was built by Anakin and how Obi Wan fought Not Boba Fett?
>>67901834
>Han Solo being brought into the main narrative comes from Rey mentioning Luke.
actually Han Solo finds the Millenium Falcon by "scanning" for it (or something) almost immediately after it went into space, even though it had been abandoned as "junk" on Jakku, even though it was in full working order.
yeah...
>>67901840
The panning shot could probably have been saved in editing by using a keyhole effect.
>>67894820
unpopular opinion but i'm not crazy about JEJ's Vader in Rebels, I can't put my finger on why. I think it's that his words drag a little if that makes sense, like they feel stretched out
>>67901790
>Never claimed anything else.
>"moves into JJ's standard shooting style: shaky cam, snap zooms, a constantly moving camera, objects that zip in and out of frame every second."
Nice job backtracking. A single snap zoom is egregious enough to be worth mentioning in a list of constant aesthetic annoyances?
TFA had it's moments both good and bad, but ultimately I think it's a worthy sequel.
>>67901909
Watch the movie, you idiot. He finds the Falcon, but he's about to drop off Rey and Finn on the nearest planet until she mentions Luke. Hence Han being brought into the main narrative by someone mentioning Luke.
>>67901631
Holy shit you can't empathize with that scene? You couldn't possibly feel a small twinge of emotion? My god you're autistic. Just admit that you wouldn't be happy no matter how it was handled. You went into TFA looking to hate it.
>>67901823
>and then remembered only at the end
THE REASON KYLO GOES TO JAKKU IS TO FIND LUKE'S MAP. THE REASON HE CAPTURES REY IS TO GET LUKE'S MAP. THE REASON EVERYONE FIGHTS IS TO GET TO LUKE'S MAP. LUKE IS MENTIONED LIKE 10 TIMES. FUCK.
>>67901834
>Oh, like the general middle American audience a week after the film came out?
Yes? Do you think Star Wars has only some sort of small cult following? The fact that you literally claimed the scene made you cry is all we need to know that you weren't not viewing this with an iota of objectivity.
> He couldn't possibly be a larger presence.
You are monumentally clueless. Paying lipservice to something doesn't mean that's what the film was about. It doesn't matter if characters keep saying, "Hey, remember Luke," as they go off and do things entirely unrelated.
Once again, A New Hope was about ending the Death Star threat. It's the only thing it was about. They didn't make needless detours and delve into entirely unrelated problems. Everything that happens on screen is directly involved in characterizing the Death Star and moving the protagonists closer toward their goal of ending it. This is entirely different from TFA which constantly ignores it's opening plea that finding Luke was essential to stopping the First Order.
>>67901892
Oh don't worry, the wilhelm scream is the least of the problems. A bigger issue is Finn being elated and yellow "WOAH" "COOL" "DID YOU SEE THAT" as he kills the people he supposedly really felt bad for a couple minutes ago.
I really hope we'll see the Jedi order get rebuilt over the course of the next two movies. I was pretty butt hurt when they were all apparently just killed off screen, when it was one of the things to look forward to after the end of Jedi.
If all we get in the end of the new trilogy is another teaser about the Jedi making their return, I'll be mad considering that would basically just be the same as the original ending.
>>67901943
Literally no backtracking at all. A single snap zoom is the absolute antithesis of how Star Wars should be shot. This isn't an on-the-ground newsreel. It felt so cheap and obvious it would be a disservice not to mention it.
The way the camera moves and the way objects enter and leave the frame like bullets are the omnipresent problems and the ones you were continuously ignoring. Instead opting for pedantry on the exact number of shaky cam scenes and snap zooms in the film.
I don't know why you're even arguing when it's clear you've never seen the original trilogy.
>>67902053
>The fact that you literally claimed the scene made you cry is all we need to know that you weren't not viewing this with an iota of objectivity.
"Misty-eyed" is an idiom. I wasn't balling. And the fact that the prequels were capable of imparting those feelings despite my love for Star Wars is evidence of my objectivity. Intellectual praise can be constructed, but emotions aren't faked.
>as they go off and do things entirely unrelated.
FUCK READ>>67902035
Nearly everything that happens in the story is due to Luke. Stop being so thick-skulled.
>to stopping the First Order.
Stopping the First Order from finding Luke. That was the main antagonist's entire motivation.
>Everything that happens on screen is directly involved in characterizing the Death Star
That's not even true. There was plenty of set up and world-building before the Death Star threat becomes apparent.
>>67901996
Han Solo finding the Falcon like that is the retarded part. Without the droid Rey and Finn would never have even met.
You're missing why the writing is shit.
>>67902035
And then the first half of the movie is over, and Luke's map is entirely unimportant. Nor does anyone explain why Luke is so essential in the first place.
I don't think you understand how to structure a plot.
All scenes on Jakku were pretty good
>>67902055
>WOAH" "COOL" "DID YOU SEE THAT" as he kills the people he supposedly really felt bad for a couple minutes ago.
Good job not paying attention to the film. He says that after blowing up unmanned turrets, not killing people. He actually attempts to run away from the First Order throughout, and only kills in self defense until the end.
>>67902263
Jakku a shit
>>67902230
>Han Solo finding the Falcon like that is the retarded part.
It's explained in the film itself. They were tracking its signal but they couldn't pick it up on Jakku.
>>67902035
But Luke is only a plot device in TFA; the characters admire him (apparently?) but they don't seem to have different ideas about who he was, or what he did. That would have given Luke a dramatic impact.
Will Episode VIII have romance?
>>67902248
>And then the first half of the movie is over,
Except for the part where the map is mentioned multiple times throughout the second half of the film, and that Kylo only captures Rey to get that map. PAY ATTENTION.
>>67902034
If you could read properly, you would understand that I was, in fact, able to empathize with that scene. The problem was that they just turn around and negate all of it, getting right back to classic "storm troopers don't fuckin matter" a few minutes later.
>>67902035
yeah, you're not going to accept the issue no matter what.
the narrative emphasis isn't on finding Luke. the fact that the macguffin is used as a plot device to get the characters going in the right direction doesn't matter because the map could be literally anything.
the drama for the first part of the film is comes from the Empire being bad. then when the Death Star III blows up the Republic the good guys have to blow up the Death Star III.
then at the end of the movie the "find Luke" problem is instantly solved because R2 remembered something (lol), so it didn't drive the story at all.
the writing is shit. none of it has any impact because the story gets totally distracted by the Death Planet. finding Luke is just a hook for the opening crawl to make the movie feel less cobbled-together.
>>67891386
then don't open the threads, you fuck.
>>67902342
>but they don't seem to have different ideas about who he was, or what he did
Except that they do. He's a mythological figure to Rey, and a reminder of the past and all that that implies to Han.
>>67897648
>it's literally 3 seconds long fäm
>>67902283
>only kills in self defense until the end.
He brutally murders a storm trooper as soon as he gets the lightsaber.
>>67902223
>Intellectual praise can be constructed, but emotions aren't faked.
And? The point is that you were emotionally predisposed to be affected by this scene. There's nothing in the actual film that should justify this kind of reaction. You're bringing your own baggage in with you.
>Nearly everything that happens in the story is due to Luke. Stop being so thick-skulled.
Nope, most of what Finn is doing is entirely the result of wanting to get away from the FO. He co-opts the Luke shit to convince people to help him, which only serves to further undermine the importance of finding Luke. Once again, lipservice doesn't count for shit. It's never established why Luke is so important.
It would be the equivalent of Ben bring up Yoda a few times in ANH. He could claim Yoda is the most important dude ever all the times he wanted. Could even be the reason him and Luke leave Tatooine. Doesn't mean the movie would suddenly be about Yoda.
>Stopping the First Order from finding Luke. That was the main antagonist's entire motivation.
No, it wasn't. They were trying to stop the FO from literally wiping whole star systems out. Anything that had anything to do with Luke is entirely forgotten and this takes up the entirety of the very long third act.
>That's not even true. There was plenty of set up and world-building before the Death Star threat becomes apparent.
The Death Star and it's capabilities are established in the opening crawl, dipshit.
>>67902442
Ok, I guess you're right. We don't know why Kylo wants to kill the last Jedi though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T_pjMr7-n0
>>67902370
You're still talking about the first half of the movie. The second half is all about rescuing Rey and destroying Starkiller Base. If the find Luke story had any momentum going for it at all, it was immediately killed here.
>>67897648
the only thing that bugged me about this scene was that ending heli shot. I thought the reveal of luke was great with the swelling music and shot from behind. One of the most memorable parts of the movie.
So uh why the fuck did they need both bits of the map?
>>67902338
the idea of being able to track a ship from that kind of distance is fucking gay. the fact that Rey herself thought the Falcon was junk, even though it's in full working order, even though it's got custom upgrades put in by Han himself and she knows who he is and that he flew a ship called "the Millenium Falcon" but didn't know she was flying it.... all totally fucking gay.
it's a 100% JJ Abrams plotting that treats the audience as retards
>>67902515
Or Snoke, or why Hux cares, or why they couldn't have starkiller pointed at Ireland in order to tie together the two climaxes.
>>67902391
>yeah, you're not going to accept the issue no matter what.
Because it's an absurd thing to argue.
The motivation for nearly every character is intermingled with the main narrative drive of the story: finding Luke. Everything that Kylo Ren does is predicated on finding him, and Rey's introduction to the narrative involves BB-8 - who's important only due to his connection to Luke. And yes, there's also an emotional association to Luke, not just a narrative one, especially when it comes to Han and his willingness to help Rey. Arguing that he doesn't matter is fucking stupid,
>>67902529
>star wars auditions
>expectations vs reality
>>67900987
i feel like it mght be another red herring like finn with the lightsaber
it seemed really obvious they might try to throw the audience
>>67902651
>it's an absurd thing to argue.
it's not absurd, but it does have to do with what my expectations are from a good story. I need more connective tissue and a better focus than TFA provided.
>>67902677
>>67902651
Okay, Luke factors into the motivations of some characters. How does Luke factor into the actions of the characters and the plot?
>>67902543
Rey is kidnapped because Kylo wants the map. The resistance base is targeted because Snoke is so terrified of Luke potentially returning he orders them to just blow it up rather than try to recover it.
Luke might not be the immediate center of attention but he still influences most of the plot
>>67902736
>[Nostrils intensify]
>>67902695
Rey being Luke's daughter would've been logical if Kylo was just some random guy. Having more Skywalkers really shrinks the already small SW movie universe.
>>67902790
In an entirely meaningless way. You could have swapped "Map to Luke" for "Starkiller Base Plans" and the same exact scenes would have happened, except that it would actually tie into act 3.
>>67902283
whatever. I thought it was close enough to the killing of stormtroopers that it was weird. good for you that you enjoyed the movie. I think it's shit.
>>67902764
You mean Luke provides a necessary plot motive, but the different perspectives on him are never raised to the level of a dramatic crisis.
If Han had been obliged to prove to Rey that Luke was real, that would been a dramatic conflict worthy of a scene.
If Kylo tried to prove that Luke was an impediment, that would be an interesting scene too. That's something his character could get agitated about. Yet when Kylo kidnaps Rey, Luke isn't on their minds.
>>67902790
>Snoke is so terrified of Luke potentially returning he orders them to just blow it up rather than try to recover it.
I will go buy a Trilby and doff it in your direction in supplication if you can provide me with dialogue that reflects this.
(I'm being sincere, I am constantly looking for more reasons to enjoy TFA)
TFA was shit
Rey is a Mary Sue
The next movie has shit designs and doesn't look like star wars
There's gonna be a gay character
There's gonna be a quirky fat asian girl
Star Wars is dead
That about sums it all up
>>67902804
the 6 movies are about skywalkers, its not about to change dumbass
>>67897648
Goddamn that's stupid, why did that need to be in there? That entire scene was fucking stupid, 30 seconds of them just starring while Rey looks like a retard
>>67902508
>There's nothing in the actual film that should justify this kind of reaction.
Stop implying that an ability to elicit emotion - which can only possibly be subjective - can be judged in objective terms. I didn't have any "baggage." I, like literally everyone else, like the first two Star Wars movies. That's the extent of my emotional connection to the series.
>Anything that had anything to do with Luke is entirely forgotten and this takes up the entirety of the very long third act.
The reason Kylo Ren goes to Jakku is to find the map that will take him to Luke. The reason Poe goes to Jakku is to retrieve that map. The reason Rey meets up with Maz Kanata and joins the Resistance is because she found the droid that had Luke's map. The reason Finn witnessed the traumatic event that lead him to defect is because Hux sent out Stormtroopers in order to find the map that lead to Skywalker. The reason Han solo ends up helping Rey and Finn is because Rey mentioned Luke Skywalker. Luke is not only mentioned throughout, keeping him from getting killed was the narrative justification for most of the movie.
>The Death Star and it's capabilities are established in the opening crawl
As opposed to Luke being missing, which is established in the first line. And the motivation for Kylo Ren wanting to find Luke, which is established in the first paragraph.
>>67902951
fuck off, George
>>67898746
Not really, people were always complaining the TPM mirrors the original trilogy to closely and called it a rehash.
>>67902543
The Starkiller thing is like the last quarter, not the second half. The map becomes more important once Rey is captured.
>>67902730
>nebulous critiques
okay
>>67902875
Thank you for conceding the point. Now find something else in the movie to complain about.
>>67902591
It's science fantasy. Most of Star Wars is full of bullshit technology and absurd coincidences. That's the series.
>>67902764
>How does Luke factor into the actions of the characters and the plot?
The map he made is the central McGuffin and the reason most characters did anything.
>>67902972
>Stop implying that an ability to elicit emotion - which can only possibly be subjective - can be judged in objective terms.
It can in regards to this scene. Because it has no impact within the context of the film. It only matters if you already give a shit about Luke and are imprinting your own feelings onto the scene.
>The reason Kylo Ren goes to...
I like how you responded to the part where I'm explicitly talking about the third act by talking about literally nothing that takes place in the third act.
>As opposed to Luke being missing, which is established in the first line. And the motivation for Kylo Ren wanting to find Luke, which is established in the first paragraph.
The difference is that ANH establishes and then demonstrates. We're told the Death Star is a threat, and we're shown it's a threat, and we understand why it's important for the heroes to stop it. At no point does TFA establish why Luke is important. It's never demonstrated why he's important. You only ever have people saying they need to find him. That's not enough. That's not even half a justification for what's happening on screen.
>>67903168
Nothing in that post is about science
>>67902951
Does Rey even know that Vader owned the blue sword?
Does she know that Vader is Luke's father?
Does she know that giving him that sword back is basically a faux pas?
>>67903218
Luke isn't a map. Why is Luke himself important?
>>67903232
>the idea of being able to track a ship from that kind of distance is fucking gay.
>>67903282
He's talking about shitty plot contrivances which, as he said, are for fags.
>>67903259
Because Kylo Ren killing him will end the Jedi, which the audience isn't okay with. He's important in that he's vital to there being a balance in the Force.
>>67902917
Hux to Kylo Ren on the bridge
>Supreme Leader Snoke was explicit - capture the droid if we can, but destroy it if we must
Shows that Snoke just wants Luke out of the picture, he doesnt care about actually killing him. He knows Luke is a big deal and may even be afraid of challenging him. When Hux informs him that the Resistance may have the map, Snoke immediately says "they must not be allowed to find Skywalker. Prepare the weapon." When the prospect of the last jedi returning is raised, he gives up on the map and instantly jumps to the nuclear option
>>67903218
Why did look go into hiding if it provided no solutions? Why would he create a map to himself if it would lead to a literal Star War? Why do Hux/Snoke/Kylo not mention Luke other than "find him"
>>67903282
Well, it is. Not very scientific.
Why would Han throw away his enterprise to obtain a ship when he already knew who stole it from him and where that person lived?
>>67903343
>Because Kylo Ren killing him will end the Jedi, which the audience isn't okay with.
Why would I give a shit about what the audience isn't okay with? Why does this matter in universe? One less Jedi hermit doing nothing in an entire galaxy is going to make for a meaningful change how?
>He's important in that he's vital to there being a balance in the Force.
In what sense? This certainly isn't established within the film.
>>67903230
>Because it has no impact within the context of the film.
Rey finds the character she thought was mythological in order to train to become a Jedi after she discovered powers that she didn't know she had. The scene had plenty of significance on its own removed from any sort of emotional connection to the previous films in the series.
>where I'm explicitly talking about the third act by talking about literally nothing that takes place in the third act.
The Starkiller base is a digression, but the only reason Rey was there to confront Kylo and discover her powers is because of Luke and his map.
>At no point does TFA establish why Luke is important.
He's important because he's the last Jedi. The film states this.
>It's never demonstrated why he's important.
It is indirectly. We know of Kylo's powers, and we know of Snoke. So the possibility of killing the only Jedi left before he's capable of training our protagonist is obviously important.
>>67903343
>balance in the Force.
But prequels sick lol.
>>67903361
Nice, although that will complicate the idea that Snoke somehow out-mindforced Luke to obtain Kylo I do like the idea of Snoke being a bitch.
>the 3 main villains of the movie all have different motivations and are all little bitches .
>>67903494
Because the battle between the light and dark side of the force has always been the most important one. The shit between the rebels and empire or whatever is jus surface level shit while the true battle is in the Force.
And we dont know what Lukes reasons for leaving were. I assume looking for the First Jedi temple was important, it wasnt just exile
>>67891179
what the fuck is up with that poster, there so much going on.
>>67903494
>This certainly isn't established within the film.
it's like the second line spoken in the movie, nigga
>there can't be a balance without the Jedi
or something
>>67903404
>Why did look go into hiding if it provided no solutions?
Because he knew of Rey's existence was waiting for her to come.
>Why would he create a map to himself if it would lead to a literal Star War?
See above. Remember the vision she had of Luke inserting the map into R2?
>Why do Hux/Snoke/Kylo not mention Luke other than "find him"
They don't have to. We know their motivation is to kill him and end the Jedi.
>>67903494
The balance in the Force is something established within the Star Wars saga, and you can't complain that the seventh part of a film franchise doesn't bother to explain something like that.
>>67903135
good job. your short term memory is bad, and you don't understand continuity or consistency.
>>67903582
>>balance in the Force.
>But prequels sick lol.
It's mentioned in Empire you dolt
>>67903621
>Remember the vision she had of Luke inserting the map into R2?
God damn it, I'm an idiot. I thought it was Luke after burning Vader. Although I'd argue Luke leaving the map for Rey is really fucking moronic.
>>67903730
and in TFA
>>67903753
>Although I'd argue Luke leaving the map for Rey is really fucking moronic.
Depends how they handle it in VIII. A lot of VII's legacy is predicated on VIII making sense of the questions that linger.
Didnt expect much but still got disappointed.
I wish they would stop making Star Wars. It all stinks.
>>67903532
>Rey finds the character she thought was mythological in order to train to become a Jedi after she discovered powers that she didn't know she had.
Rey training is significant. The exact moment she finds Luke is not. The original trilogy didn't have a drawn out shot of Luke looking flabbergasted and Yoda looking wise when the little green goblin was revealed to be him. The scene continued as normal. TFA explicitly attempts to make this scene seem especially important when it is not.
>The Starkiller base is a digression, but the only reason Rey was there to confront Kylo and discover her powers is because of Luke and his map.
Irrelevant, because the entire focus of the movie has still shifted away from Luke completely.
>He's important because he's the last Jedi. The film states this.
This doesn't mean anything. The Death Star was important because it could wipe out entire planets. Why is one Jedi important? Especially one who apparently hasn't even been involved in any galactic events in decades.
>It is indirectly. We know of Kylo's powers, and we know of Snoke.
And? Chewie blew a chunk out of Kylo just fine. Once again, compare this to the Death Star. The plans were important because there was no known weakness to this super weapon. The plans were essential in learning of this weakness. Luke isn't required to stop Ren or Snoke, the latter of whom we know effectively nothing about. If he is, nothing in the film would indicate why.
>>67903811
Sorry Dad
So why did they land on the green planet and go to the bar with the manlet alien with glasses?
>>67902972
can someone shop a picture of Luke inTFA with the martian Bring Him Home shit on top? that would be comfy humor
>>67903924
because Maz is 1000 years old and knows about the Force, but not a jedi
>>67891179
Why is the blu ray case black?
>>67903584
>>67903613
>>67903693
Balance doesn't mean anything. It was never the driving motivation of any main plot in the original trilogy. ANH was about stopping the Death Star, ESB was about escaping the Empire and Luke saving his friends, RotJ was about stopping the Death Star 2 and taking the Emperor out with it.
>Because the battle between the light and dark side of the force has always been the most important one.
No, it hasn't. It's always been a side story. Important to Luke and other force adherents, but not especially relevant to what anyone else is doing. Luke's final confrontation between Vader and the Emperor is entirely personal. The Rebellion won that battle without him. I guess you could maybe argue that the Emperor and Vader were too distracted trying to turn Luke to flee, but I doubt it. The rebel victory would have been a surprise to both.
>>67903243
its pretty insulting desu. Its like some little girl who may be your abandoned daughter giving you your dad's Luger pistol he used to kill Jews in WWII. Oh yeah, and your dad was Hitler. Here's a reminder of all that pain. Now come save us all.
>>67904010
I guess Blue is generic and Star Wars is kind of a big deal.
>>67904173
I'm not autistic but all my blu ray cases are blue and the black will mess with the feng shui
Does the OT have any actual plotholes/nitpicks?
>no lifeforms aboard sir
>Kylo Ren takes his mask off and puts it in the ashes, in a room without that table with ashes... then he goes to talk to Snoke and is shown not holding his mask . Then Hux walks in and Kylo is now holding his mask. Then Kylo leaves and is mysteriously missing his cloak, then he comes into Rey's cell (which has no ash table) and once again has his cloak on .
>>67903872
>Rey training is significant. The exact moment she finds Luke is not.
FUCK. That's literally a distinction without a difference. Who do you think is going to be doing the training? This is some hardcore hair-splitting.
>The original trilogy didn't have a drawn out shot of Luke looking flabbergasted and Yoda looking wise when the little green goblin was revealed to be him.
We're also in the 7th film in the franchise, seeing a character who the main antagonists and protagonists have been looking for since the film began. Context matters.
>because the entire focus of the movie has still shifted away from Luke completely.
Like I said, it's a digression. A film can have multiple, concurrent narrative arcs. Empire and Jedi both do.
>Why is one Jedi important?
Because, like the franchise has already established, there needs to be a balance in the Force. If Snoke and Kylo are threats, then having a Jedi able to train Rey is key to neutralizing those threats. This is the entire point of Star Wars.
>Chewie blew a chunk out of Kylo just fine.
Still wasn't able to kill him, and that doesn't deal with Snoke in the least.
>Luke isn't required to stop Ren or Snoke
Except that he absolutely is, which is implied throughout the film. An entire Resistance armada wasn't able to defeat Kylo or Snoke, nor was Rey. Luke needs to train Rey; Episode VII was about establishing the characters and conflict; Episode VIII will be about beginning to deal with the main conflict.
>>67904016
Star Wars has always had a pseudo-Buddhist conception of light being the necessary complementary counterbalance to dark. It's a notion that permeates all 7 movies. Yes, each individual film has its own story, but that's always been the thread the connects both the prequels and the OT.
>>67904245
>That's literally a distinction without a difference.
We are literally talking about how a shot is filmed. Relative narrative importance doesn't mean that you use such a drawn out obvious shot that's practically screaming, "This is important! Can you guys even believe how important this is?! Remember Mark Hamill?! Holy Shit I can't believe how big a deal this is!" There is no reason for them to hold the shot that long, all it does is take people out of the moment. There's nothing natural about it at all.
>Context matters.
The context in the film is that Luke is paid little more than lipservice. The context in reality is that Mark Hamill hasn't been in Star Wars for decades and so they tried to make his appearance special and then fucked it up by going completely overboard.
Yoda was the entire point of Luke's story in Empire and they didn't need to draw out a shot to make any retarded point. The audience understood it just fine.
>Because, like the franchise has already established, there needs to be a balance in the Force.
Balance is not a defined characteristic in any of the movies. Return would have ended with both Sith dead regardless of Luke's involvement. Why are you pretending that the Lightside/Darkside divide is more than an internal conflict?
>Still wasn't able to kill him, and that doesn't deal with Snoke in the least.
Yes, because you don't kill your villain off in the first film. You're suggesting that Kylo can't be killed except by a Jedi? We've seen countless Jedi killed by grunts. What makes this one so different?
>Except that he absolutely is, which is implied throughout the film. An entire Resistance armada wasn't able to defeat Kylo or Snoke, nor was Rey.
What the fuck are you talking about? That's literally what they did. They destroyed their super weapon and escaped. Rey gashed Ren's face open and he was only saved when a literal earthquake separated them with a chasm.
>>67904240
>The windows of the TIE fighters are shaped differently when viewed from the inside and the outside.
>C-3PO sustains a dent on his head during the Sandpeople attack, but the dent appears, disappears, and swaps sides frequently during the movie.
>When Vader enters Leia's cell for interrogation, a guard takes position to the right of the door. When the floating orb enters the room, suddenly it's a different actor standing there (lips and position of chin strap are different).
Kylo Ren was great.
>>67904405
>i have no understanding of buddhism so i just assume it's similar to preconceived notions i got from KOTOR the post
>>67904642
He was the only part of the story I really enjoyed.
*kills everyone in this thread*
>>67904405
It's a nebulously defined aspect of the universe that has never had any clear impact on anything. One of the primary problems with the prequel trilogy is that it tried to focus on this nebulous and poorly defined conflict.
A planet destroying super weapon has clearly defined stakes. A galactic civil war has clearly defined stakes. That one dude who isn't even doing anything might die does not have clearly defined stakes for the universe. If Luke dies, how does this impact the resistances ability to blow up evil super weapons and shoot down enemy ships?
If you want to center your story around the darkside/lightside divide you need to establish exactly what victory for the former means. As it stands, there is no practical consequence. It's only a philosophical and dogmatic victory. And only in the sense that they've silenced the last living practitioner. Leia, Han, and countless others would still be more than capable of passing on Jedi tenets.
>>67897778
This. Overall I liked it even better on second viewing.
>>67904723
Tbh you just sound like a fedora tipper who hates that theres religion in his space movie
>>67904547
God, I'm so tired of these point by point discussions that accomplish nothing. They're more like endurance tests for who can give up first. It's like the last person to post is perceived as the winner.
>There is no reason for them to hold the shot that long
This is a pure aesthetic point, which is the most subjective aspect of filmmaking. To me, in a world where every film with a $200 million+ budget tries so hard to impress by shoving as much shit into the screen as possible, the fact that TFA has two scenes (the ending and the interrogation of Rey) that go on for much longer than they would in a typical film demonstrates the artistic sensibility that makes TFA such an interesting movie to me.
>Why are you pretending that the Lightside/Darkside divide is more than an internal conflict?
Why are you making this distinction? They're presented as both in the OT. Are you seriously going to suggest that Palpatine is conflicted?
>You're suggesting that Kylo can't be killed except by a Jedi?
Even if it's logically the case that he can be killed by anyone, the film still clearly presents Rey as his main adversary. So, from a dramatic standpoint, we want to see her specifically defeat Kylo.
>That's literally what they did.
Every main villain survived and the First Order blew up the Republic and created a power vacuum that will allow them to take over. Does it really count as a defeat?
>>67902367
>he got to romance Natalie in her prime
Is this why he's so hated, /tv/?
>>67904688
>pseudo
Looks like you missed a word there
>>67903810
exactly. Ppl are retarded for not realizing this. It was the same with OT. Empire made SW more than fun summer blockbuster. ROTJ was kinda bad in many ways, but wrapped the story and characters up very well. Specifically Luke.
TFA was the fun ride, 8 needs to be deep to validate the ST. 9 only has to be meh if 8 is good. They could go full LOTR with a grand exit, but after Jurassic world I dont see why they would get Trevorrow if they actually cared.
>>67904405
The moral/spiritual considerations made more concrete by the idea of a "Dark Side" were always there, sure, but the whole "bringing balance" prophecy was a superfluous prequel trilogy creation.
>>67904228
>not autistic
>can't handle black bluray case
should we take his word?
>>67904723
The dark side light side conflict is ostensibly just a way to contextualize Luke vs Palpatine, and Vader's internal conflict. It's not meant to be any deeper than that. And that same dynamic, the Snoke vs Rey and Kylo's internal conflict is the same contention that exists in TFA. To me the personal conflicts is what made Star Wars interesting. I never gave three shits about the Death Star because I didn't know anyone on Alderaan.
>>67904901
>i inserted 'pseudo' in case someone realizes i have absolutely no clue what i'm talking about and that buddhism isn't about balancing light and dark the post
>>67904880
he's gonna show them haters in Episode VIII
>>67905089
>i'm a white Buddhist
Kill thyself
>>67904871
>This is a pure aesthetic point,
When was it not? We were specifically talking about how a scene was shot. Did you just realize this?
>go on for much longer than they would in a typical film
Huh? You're saying that if more movies had bad scenes, then this wouldn't be good, but because TFA is unique in having this bad scene, it's interesting? Moreover, plenty of movies draw scenes out. But they do it well. The Matrix didn't need to revolve the camera around it's actors whenever they jacked into the Matrix, but it's stylish and it works. It doesn't in TFA because it has no style at all, and simply feels awkward.
>Are you seriously going to suggest that Palpatine is conflicted?
What the fuck are you talking about? It's an internal conflict in that it really only matters to Jedi/Sith. Regular people don't give a shit. The Rebellion didn't give a shit. They were fighting because the Empire was a tyranical dictatorship, not because they had philosophical differences on the appropriate use of the Force.
>So, from a dramatic standpoint, we want to see her specifically defeat Kylo.
Which we saw. So I guess I'll ask again, why is Luke so important when Rey is already capable of defeating Ren? Why is he important when a blaster shot could end him? Why is he important when someone could just vape Ren's ship?
>Every main villain survived and the First Order blew up the Republic and created a power vacuum that will allow them to take over. Does it really count as a defeat?
And every main hero survived and destroyed the First Order's only weapon and kicked all the villain's asses except for Snoke who wasn't present. What's your point? You haven't demonstrated how Luke is uniquely required to stop the First Order when the resistance seems to be doing alright without him.
>>67905113
>i'm a retard who doesn't bother to understand things before making claims about them so now i'm deflecting the post
>>67904697
aykm fami,lia. Kylo is the edgy teenager who gets owned by a literal child.
>>67904797
What the fuck are you talking about? Plenty of movies have religious themes, but still clearly define their stakes. "Bringing balance to the Force" is not clearly defined. It means essentially nothing. Do you have anything of substance to say or do you just want to keep spewing memes out your ass?
Do we all agree that it would have been better if Kylo didn't take off his mask until the bridge scene?
I also think that it would have fixed all mary sue issues if during the lightsaber fight, Kylo gets the advantage on Rey and is about to kill her but then the ground splits to save her
>>67905069
>I never gave three shits about the Death Star because I didn't know anyone on Alderaan.
This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. You know Alderaan through Leia and Obiwan. You see their reactions to it's destruction. You understand the impact. You understand how great a threat the Death Star is because it becomes viscerally clear.
The destruction also represents a clear set back for the heroes. Up until this moment, getting to Alderaan was their primary goal. If they can get there, they can deliver the plans and hopefully stop the Empire. But that option has been removed from the table and their mission becomes that much more desperate.
Completely different from how TFA just blew up half a dozen worlds you never knew the name of and who nobody seemed to give two shits about.
The reason you cared about the Luke/Vader/Emperor conflict is because it had been built up over 3 movies. Personal conflicts can be compelling, but they have to matter. For Luke, it meant confronting his father, trying to turn him, and finally becoming a Jedi. This was the culmination of 3 movies worth of development. Comparing that to anything that happened in TFA is ludicrous.
>>67905359
>Do we all agree that it would have been better if Kylo didn't take off his mask until the bridge scene?
No
>>67905262
The whole Chosen One prophecy bullshit didn't even matter (and still doesn't) to the OT anyway. It was just a way for the movie to explore the moral and spiritual struggle Luke (and Vader) go through. Anakin being a prophesized Chosen One instead of merely a very gifted but spiritually bankrupt Jedi was one of the dumbest things about the prequels. He was tragic enough without it.
>>67905466
Moreover, the stakes in the Luke/Vader/Emperor confrontation where never about whether Luke died or not. We saw that he was ready to do exactly that. The stakes were over whether he would fall, whether Vader could be saved. That's what made the confrontation interesting.
As opposed to TFA, wherein Luke being killed is held up as some big deal, but it's never established why this single person is so important.
>>67905464
>>67905455
No you fucking don't understand the impact. I hate to say it, but Anita Sarkeesian was right about this. You see an entire planet explode and billions of people day, and Leia is making quippy remarks the next day. There's absolutely no sense of threat or gravitas to the situation. It's a lighthearted fairy tale, not a war film.
>Completely different from how TFA just blew up half a dozen worlds you never knew the name of and who nobody seemed to give two shits about.
Seeing the scared faces of the people on those planets did more to articulate their suffering that Leia looking constipated for 3 seconds.
>Comparing that to anything that happened in TFA is ludicrous.
No one is comparing three films of development to one other than you.
>>67905589
Snoke fears Luke because he can create more Jedi. And also probably because Luke's pretty badass by this point.
>>67905921
how exactly badass are we talking about?
>>67905963
A good question... For another time
>>67905359
No. The whole point of that scene is that we are seeing Kylo in a position of vulnerability. As the mask comes off we see hes not the big strong darksider hes pretending to be.
Keeping the mask on for BIG SHOCKING PLOT TWIST on the bridge would have been dumb
>>67905706
> You see an entire planet explode and billions of people day, and Leia is making quippy remarks the next day.
Welcome to Star Wars, fucko. Stakes can be high and impactful without the film abandoning all humor and light heartedness. There's more than enough separation between the two events for any problem to exist. The exact same thing happens in TFA.
>Seeing the scared faces of the people on those planets did more to articulate their suffering that Leia looking constipated for 3 seconds.
You're a fucking moron. Leia screams out of desperation. She makes a plea to let them live, explaining how they've no weapons, no means of defending themselves. You see Kenobi shaken to his core, forced to steady himself and take a seat when he senses what has happened. And once again, Alderaan actually matters for the plot.
In TFA, all they do is show you some people you don't know on a planet you don't know that has no importance to anything in the plot. If you seriously think this has greater impact because they cut to some close ups of literal nobodies you're legitimately retarded.
>No one is comparing three films of development to one other than you.
It's literally in the post I quoted, dipshit:
>To me the personal conflicts is what made Star Wars interesting. I never gave three shits about the Death Star because I didn't know anyone on Alderaan.
Explicit comparison of the personal conflict between Vader, Luke, and Palp and the destruction of Alderaan. TFA has no personal conflict because none of the characters have real relationships outside of the Han/Kylo backstory. Everyone else has only just met.
TFA is literal fanfic. After watching it I just felt like I'd wasted my time. There's nothing interesting about it
>>67905211
>We were specifically talking about how a scene was shot.
I thought we were talking about the significance of the scene from a plot perspective, unless you're backpedaling now.
>You're saying that if more movies had bad scenes, then this wouldn't be good, but because TFA is unique in having this bad scene, it's interesting?
Why do you ask the question as if I accept the premise that the scenes are bad? Are you psychotic? I'm defending the scenes. I'm saying that the scenes are good partially because of how they're shot, not in spite of it.
>The Matrix didn't need to revolve the camera around it's actors whenever they jacked into the Matrix
Neither does The Force Awakens. That's a 4 second shot in a 2+ hour film. Fucking stop it.
>It's an internal conflict in that it really only matters to Jedi/Sith. Regular people don't give a shit.
You're confusing character motivation with audience investment. A random Rebellion fighter might not care, but the audience watching Luke and Vader fight do. And everyone knows that that that conflict is the heart and soul of Star Wars.
>Which we saw. So I guess I'll ask again, why is Luke so important when Rey is already capable of defeating Ren? Why is he important when a blaster shot could end him? Why is he important when someone could just vape Ren's ship?
Kylo Ren is still alive. Why do you keep making this point as if he's no longer a threat? As if Snoke doesn't exist? Rey bested an injured guy in a fight; that doesn't stop that guy from being a threat.
>And every main hero survived and destroyed the First Order's only weapon and kicked all the villain's asses except for Snoke who wasn't present.
The First Order won in TFA. They literally ended their main governmental opposition. Starkiller blowing up after it already completed its task and Kylo getting a scar doesn't change this fact.
>>67905963
I think it would be disservice to his character if he isn't at least Yoda/Palpatine level. Luke should by all respects be what Anakin could have been. Who knows, though.
Reybowl when?
>>67906125
>The exact same thing happens in TFA.
I didn't say otherwise. The reason I cared more about Starkiller than the Death Star is because the characters I cared about were actually on the planet itself.
>You're a fucking moron. Leia screams out of desperation.
Fuck off. You see her look as if someone kicked her dog, and Obi-Wan sits down. There's no emotional authenticity to their reactions, which in turn makes the audience not give a fuck that an entire planet was destroyed.
>If you seriously think this has greater impact because they cut to some close ups of literal nobodies
Nobodies who looked genuinely scared, as opposed to anyone in ANH. The acting in the OT is awful in general.
>TFA has no personal conflict because none of the characters have real relationships outside of the Han/Kylo backstory.
That's also true of ANH. The relationships develop over the three films, as they will in the new trilogy.
>>67906164
>There's nothing interesting about it
>tfw I said this to my Normie viewing-party and got looks of disgust.
>I asked "what are you interested in, then?"
>response is "you're no fun"
Literally this thread: the conversation
>>67906621
>>There's nothing interesting about it
That's objectively wrong, though. Kylo Ren is interesting, as are some of the early scenes with Rey on Jakku are good. "Nothing" is hyperbolic.
>>67906173
>Starkiller blowing up after it already completed its task and Kylo getting a scar doesn't change this fact.
So Hux, Kylo and one star destroyer and a three foot tall shit lord is the first order?
>>67906423
>There's no emotional authenticity to their reactions, which in turn makes the audience not give a fuck that an entire planet was destroyed.
O I am laffin.
If your planet was about to blow up would you look at the sky slightly worried?>>67906687
You're right, I just didn't want to change what I was quoting. The Kylo/Rey/school aspect is very interesting to me, but that's literally it (to me). Maz Kanata's planet annoys me when I try to think about it, Hux and Snoke can BECOME interesting, and thinking about Luke annoys me as well .
>>67906173
>I thought we were talking about the significance of the scene from a plot perspective, unless you're backpedaling now.
It was about how the scene was from the very beginning. You then tried to claim that the shitty shot was justified because it was important enough narratively speaking. Or, if you're some other anon, then you should start at the beginning of the post chain rather than inserting yourself thinking you know what's being talked about:
>>67900913
>That's a 4 second shot in a 2+ hour film.
No, it fucking isn't They stare at each other for awhile with awkward closeups before it cuts away to a just as awkward helicopter shot. Nothing about this was well done.
>You're confusing character motivation with audience investment.
No, I'm not. I'm saying the latter isn't important when it comes to examining the quality of writing. Luke and his journey was important in the original trilogy because it was built up that way over the course of three films. And then his arc was over. Luke isn't important in Force Awakens for any observable reason. But that doesn't stop everyone from acting like he's the key to everything.
>Kylo Ren is still alive. Why do you keep making this point as if he's no longer a threat? As if Snoke doesn't exist? Rey bested an injured guy in a fight; that doesn't stop that guy from being a threat.
>The First Order won in TFA. They literally ended their main governmental opposition. Starkiller blowing up after it already completed its task and Kylo getting a scar doesn't change this fact.
Are you slow or something? I'm not arguing who won or lost. I'm arguing against the notion that Luke is required for victory. You keep submitting this as if it's self evident, but nothing in the film suggests it is true. That the FO was able to strike a blow against the Republic is immaterial. That doesn't mean that the resistance is incapable of mounting an effective assault.
Prove that Luke is uniquely necessary or drop the point.
>>67898746
>Lucas did something original with the prequels and everyone hated him for it
Loved him for it, love the prequels more than original trilogy that I grew up with (45 yo)
TFA is absolute crap. Not even entertaining.
>>67906687
Why do you even respond to this kid?
>>67906885
>You then tried to claim that the shitty shot was justified because it was important enough narratively speaking
I liked the shot of them staring at each other, I don't like the helicopter shot. That's been my view from the start.
>>67906423
>The reason I cared more about Starkiller than the Death Star is because the characters I cared about were actually on the planet itself.
What? We were comparing Alderaan to the unnamed planets destroyed by SKB is TFA. There were zero characters on those unnamed planets. Only short clips of extras. You felt more attachment to literal nobodies than to established protagonists. You're a literal retard who's only capable of feeling shit when it's jammed down your throat. Not surprising you preferred TFA.
>You see her look as if someone kicked her dog, and Obi-Wan sits down.
You've never seen the original trilogy. She pleads with Tarkin, and when he decides to fire anyway is held back by Vader when she tries to rush forward. Kenobi clutches at his chest and staggers over to his seat, steadying himself before sitting down. TFA is literally just people looking up in awe with a red light shining in their face, and it has no impact on the story except that the resistance now knows where to go shoot shit.
>That's also true of ANH.
What's your point? I never claimed ANH had personal conflict as it's primary thrust. I've always said the threat posed by teh Death Star was the main motivation and driving force behind the film.
I was pointing out that your preference for personal conflict apparently doesn't apply when you're talking about TFA, because there isn't any there. Nor does it have any other compelling threat.
>Luke is a robot tinkerer, showing the versatility, skill and dexterity required for a strong hero, but only the beginnings of it that will need to be letter refined
>Ray is good with robots, is multilingual, can fix parts of a spaceship for no reason, but is also a skilled explorer, also good at fighting AND a master of the force instantly cos GRRRL POWER
zzzZZZzzz
It's actually perfectly fine for protagonists to go from peasant to magically and irrationally godmode as a story progresses, it allows for good development over the span of multiple titles. It's not okay to make them mary sues from the beginning unless they are literally 40 years old.
It's ironic that people chimped out about John Boyega but his character is infinitely better by virtue of being a flawed, non-stoic character with logic behind his development (i.e. trained militant).
>>67907235
>it allows for good development over the span of multiple titles.
I'm not sure how they fucked this up so much when they knew going in that TFA was going to be the first in a trilogy. Lucas didn't know that anything would get made past the original Star Wars, but that didn't mean he jammed all of Luke's progression into the first movie.
>>67906885
>They stare at each other for awhile with awkward closeups
God forbid that a film take its time during a seminal moment. If that's a "awhile" then I'd love to see you watch a Haneke movie.
>Luke isn't important in Force Awakens for any observable reason.
This is the seventh film in the franchise you cum guzzler. The character that's been developed over the course of the previous films doesn't just go away only to be replaced by a new Luke. We have that history.
>I'm saying the latter isn't important when it comes to examining the quality of writing.
Literally ALL that matters is audience investment. The only way one can judge a film is what it was able to elicit in you, not on some undefinable objective ideals about good storytelling.
>I'm arguing against the notion that Luke is required for victory.
Let me spell this out for you: if Kylo Ren and Snoke can't be defeated by Rey, then Rey is required to train as a Jedi with Luke, which will then help her defeat Kylo Ren and Snoke.
>That doesn't mean that the resistance is incapable of mounting an effective assault.
The Republic is done. That's cannon. Only a small band of Resistance fighters are left.
>Prove that Luke is uniquely necessary or drop the point.
I've already proven this. Rey can't train as a Jedi without Luke.
>>67907214
>You felt more attachment to literal nobodies than to established protagonists.
Let me better articulate this point, because it's an important one. The only way one can sympathize with what happened to Alderaan is through the reaction of characters whom aren't being killed. If that's the case, then that reaction better carry some weight to it. It doesn't. There's a minor reaction from both Leia and Obi-Wan, then Leia is joking around with Han days after everyone she ever knew was murdered. In TFA at least you see the faces of people who know they're going to die.
>I was pointing out that your preference for personal conflict apparently doesn't apply when you're talking about TFA, because there isn't any there.
Fuck off. No conflict between Han and Kylo? No conflict between Kylo and Hux? No conflict between Kylo and Rey?
>>67907214
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pDWTj2_2a8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHB9JPT2gvg
Anyone who prefers the latter is a massive pleb. We don't know Leia's connection to Alderaan because she never talks about it. It't just her home planet. She doesn't talk about the people she's lost; this one reaction is the extent of her mourning.
>>67907630
>In TFA at least you see the faces of people who know they're going to die.
But what if THAT reaction carries no emotional weight? It becomes less effective than weightless emotion from a bystander.
>>67907858
Ah, why hello there...! Are you admirin my Iambics, ma'am? Just a small sample of what a classically trained actor can do with a reiterating line.
