This movie, regardless of what anyone says, embraced cinephiles at it's core. The cinematography aspects of good film making were made colloquially acceptable and given providence in exchange for the typical casual draw of the average cinema goer. Whether the audience realized it or not, they were subjected to a well made, well shot film with an albeit messy plot, though well made high quality cinematic experience. Too often have the conversations revolved around the menial, juvenile and unimportant aspects of the comic book heritage being kept vs the more important and substantial issues of true cinema. Snyder's rendition of Batman, Wonderwoman, and Superman embraced the commonality of the common man- the very real trials and tribulations of individuals. Coupled with a well executed vision, new takes and angles for high quality shots- this movie deserves the appraise of a 5 star movie.
t. imdb graduate regressing back to his sophomore understanding of film
>>67879770
but it's not well made, the editing is all over the place
>>67879770
it did get five stars by the way... 5 out of 10.
>>67879770
>with an albeit messy plot
The plot is fine, the editing is fine too, your attention span isn't. Every so-called flaw of this movie can be traced to one of the following:
>not what i wanted it to be
>i didn't catch all the logistics, fault the movie for not picking up on it
>the fact that i'm asking questions about the movie is somehow a fault of the movie
>the precise internal mechanics of the movie and their connection with my perception of the movie in relation to the story escaped me
>the movie presents an idea that is not only valid with the movie universe but in real life as well
This movie was too smart for people.
>>67879770
>it's
>>67879770
>deserves the appraise of a 5 star movie.
Whatever. The plot was a glorious mess, and praising it is rewarding stupid.
>>67879909
You clearly don't understand the film. It tied together two separate story lines to converge towards the end. They were separate stories that were strung together. This "it was allover the place" is a result of your adolescent understanding of a film having to have a one track storyline and plot. Listen kid, not all films have a straight forward easy point a to point b track. Maybe you should just stick to watching The Hunger Games or something similar.
>>67879987
Don't correct me asshole, that's exactly what I was saying already, the messy plot wasn't exactly a criticism but moreso a comment on how it appeared to be all over the place. I am saying the film was too good for people you enormous faggot.
>>67880100
clearly you don't understand that they made snyder cut down his 3 hour version and so its a complete mess.
>>67879770
trying too hard
>>67880262
Except it's not a mess at all and your simpleton understanding of film is showing. Have some self respect.
Tell me your complaints of the movie, I'll do my best to change your mind. Let's make this an actual discussion.
>>67879987
>This movie was too smart for people.
You can't be serious? Oh but you are.The emotional aspects of the movie could be compared to that of a childlike mentality. What if I were to inform you that I understood the film perfectly, but simply did not enjoy the long drawn out predictability of it, and completely lacking in creativity, or the reality of the consequences from MOS?
>>67879770
Don't worry OP, I'm with you.
Just got back from my second IMAX viewing. Watching this movie is an amazing experience. It will be considered a masterpiece for sure. It's not for the normal movie viewer.
>>67880449
Be more specific
see >>67880366
>>67880449
You're just so autistic you don't understand core human emotion.
>>67880449
What's the matter? Aren't you going to reply to this kind anon offering a debate?>>67880366
So you really can't back up your claims with actual substance or evidence huh? Reminds me of the reviewers.
My biggest issues with the movie is Jesse Eisenberg, and that the scene shifts are jarring. Like we go from Bruce's parents dying to Metropolis then cut to Africa for a short scene then back to Metropolis. The script isn't very good either
That said, there were very good scenes sprinkled throughout the movie and the fight was enjoyable. They should've added some of the stuff that was cut (Wayne Manor burning, Clark Kent interviewing Blackgate prisoners, the rest of Batman's speech, Lex talking to Darkseid's general) while trimming all the unnecessary fluff already in the movie. It could be a really good 1 1/2 to 2 hour movie if they tried. It isn't as bad as the critics made it out to be, hell of a lot better than Rises
>>67880551
We already know Superman, and I understand this is to reintroduce as if this man truly existed, I get all of that, and still it remains bland, quite generic as characters go. Everyone in the film is generic. Feels as if a paint by numbers story, simply stretched out to add a sense of fondness that is mostly imaginary. I much rather stories that attempt to give me more than I expected, not less. This movie gave me less than I'd want to know of this man, or many of the characters. There was no real attempt to look deeper, but in gesture. I felt that the writer's are scared of having the characters talk too much because that would make them too specific. Feels as if a gutless movie, by gutless writers selling a product that is nothing but flashy modernized visuals.
>>67880601
You're wrong.
>>67880808
I did here >>67880859
>>67880859
So yeah you're too autistic to understand core human emotions.
Superman and Batman had plenty of dialogue and character growth from starting at point A to evolving to point B.
Even Wonderwoman's subplot contained evolution of character. You're simply too autistic to understand any of that.
>>67880811
>My biggest issues with the movie is Jesse Eisenberg
Explain?
>>67880811
>Like we go from Bruce's parents dying to Metropolis then cut to Africa for a short scene then back to Metropolis.
Opening scene deals with Bruce's mentality, remember the opening monologue.
>There was a time above, a time before. There were perfect things, diamond absolute. But things fall, and what falls remains fallen.
The theme of this scene is his fall from grace, everything from the falling shells, his parents dropping dead, the pearl slipping from Martha's hand to the gutter, and into Bruce's dream. Hell even the piano melody has a descending motif, and the funeral takes place in Fall.
>In the dream, they took me into the light, a beautiful lie.
The Metropolis scene expands this idea of Bruce's fall from grace by showing how he lost his way (he steps into a smoke cloud and becomes disoriented, he walks past a horse walking aimlessly, hammering us with this idea of losing our way). This scene basically shows how he started hating Superman, when a cross-shaped beam (representing Gods being a danger for men) almost kills the little girl. Then he finds out she's an orphan too, so he projects himself in her, and stares at Superman with hate, basically blaming him for his parents' death which we still have fresh in our minds.
The next scene changes perspective to Lois' and Clark's POV, and explores their relationship and kick-starts the basic theme of when and why Superman should intervene, throwing in the idea that he gives priority to his loved ones. Also it introduces the Russian hired gun.
>>67880859
Be more SPECIFIC with your complaints, you're repeating yourself without adding anything of value. Which scenes did you deem unoriginal or cliché?
>>67881045
Forgot to mention that he specifically says that the dream was a beautiful lie because this dream represents the birth of Batman, the bats lifting him show that he found some hope in this bat image, but later became disenchanted after 20 years of fighting crime, that's the beautiful lie he's talking about. At this point in time, he believes that being Batman didn't amount to anything of value.
>>67881099
It's like talking with a brick wall.
>Autist spouts the same shit reviewers do and can't muster any original thought
Big surprise there.
Also
>people who bash the movie avoid discussion threads like the plague
nothing new in /tv/
>>67881034
>You're simply too autistic to understand any of that.
Again you're completely wrong, and repeating yourself doesn't make your claim accurate. I wasn't only the dialogue that felt flat, but the characters themselves as simply mechanical parts binding the plot.
Batman having dreams, and being affected emotionally on a regular basis seemed something new, and deeper which I did like, but that all seemed to fall apart when Batman changed his mind so easily. Or rather that scene felt strange in not a good way. Felt artificial, that the naming was forced. I doubt a that a man driven to avenge terror would simply let go of his animosity at hearing his mother's name.
Granted, his mother is probably an important thought in his activities, but I still didn't buy it. Superman is a risk he would need to understand better.
If you're going to continue calling me autistic, you, and I are done. I simply have a different opinion your autism isn't recognizing the validity of.
>>67881099
>Be more SPECIFIC
I was. Re-read, and be specific about how I wasn't specific...
>>67881853
Fucking retard, you're not helping your cause at all.
>Which scenes did you deem unoriginal or cliché?
>>67881901
>Which scenes did you deem unoriginal or cliché?
Lois, talking to the Swanwick.
All of the exchanged conversations between Batman, and Superman.
The conversations between Bruce, and Wonder Woman.
The conversations between Lois, and Clark.
All of these exchanged conversations just seemed so plain, and uninteresting. Mere plot pieces.
>>67881802
>but that all seemed to fall apart when Batman changed his mind so easily. Or rather that scene felt strange in not a good way. Felt artificial, that the naming was forced. I doubt a that a man driven to avenge terror would simply let go of his animosity at hearing his mother's name.
Many ways to explain why Clark cries "Martha" instead of "my mother".
First of all, she isn't his real mother, even though she raised him. This reminds me of the scene in MoS when he and his father argue in the truck, where Clark emphasizes that he feels he's ready to look for his real place in the world. Later, when Martha sees Clark with the Superman suit for the first time, she becomes emotional because he has found his place, he was meant to be the bridge of both worlds, and the reality is that he's not her child truly.
Another point I remember is that Lex hammers him by repeating her name.
>Every child's special woman is his mother. Martha, Martha, Martha!
Bruce's change of heart can be traced directly to the fact that Clark cries "You have to save Martha."
>cut to a callback of Bruce's parents death
Remember how he referred to Superman as an "alien" at first, not even a human being. By seeing his humanity he projects himself into Clark. He realizes that he's now on the other side of the gun that killed his parents.
That's why he takes so much importance into saving her, in his mind it's his chance to redeem himself and live up to his parents' memory at last, metaphorically saving them.
>>67881901
>>67881901
>Fucking retard, you're not helping your cause at all.
Neither are you. We're done. The only response you know is being an ass, which is probably why people such as you like this movie so much.
>>67879822
Enlighten us oh wise one.
>>67880449
So far the only criticism of the plot I've seen if so e people who missed something.
Why is it that some of the people who legitimately like MoS and BvS have mild autism?
I found the same thing with the Star Wars prequel when I asked my students about their favourite movies.
>>67882092
>Lois, talking to the Swanwick
Callbacks to MoS, and how Swanwick has progressed. He's the link between Superman and the army. In MoS he realized Superman is an ally, and now he's Secretary of defense.
The bullet sub-plot may seem disposable at first, but it shows Lois' struggle to understand what her role is relating to Clark. On one side she's a journalist, does she have the ethical obligation to reveal Clark's identity?
She's also Clark's closest link to Earth, and the person that best understands him. Swanwick being adamant on exposing Lex himself shows how much power and influence Lex has on government officials and politicians. When Lois discovers in D.C. that Lex was involved on framing Superman on the African incident, she hurries to the Capitol to warn him, but it's too late, because the bomb explodes before she has the chance.
Later, Superman disappears after their conversation on the hotel room, so she has no chance to relate this information to him. When she returns to the Daily Planet, she's conflicted by the recent events, because revealing the bullet evidence would also entail revealing that she knows Superman's identity, so she decides to keep it a secret. Finally, when Lex kidnaps her he tells her that this knowledge will be lost like sand in the desert, because his plan on exposing Superman is already in motion.
There's a lot more going on than what's just relayed with dialogue.
I'll keep on explaining the next points in my next posts.
>>67881045
Great post dude
>descending motif
I'm glad you mentioned the music, I can't get how even the music has real thought to it. The 7/8 timing of WW theme, the manic tyrannical nature of Lex's theme. The movie is crammed full of info which is en extremely rewarding experience for those who can understand and appreciate it all.
>>67882444
I fail to see how revealing the involvement of Luthor in Africa has anything to do with Superman's identity.
Superman was known to be there, the bullet struck her notebook before he saved her.
She can rightfully say that Luthor was involved without mentioning Superman's identity. Except she does not have a creditable source.
every scene is like a painting
it's a beautiful masterpiece
>>67880859
What exactly were you expecting to learn about superman?
Just because he doesn't have some retarded expositive comic book like speech doesn't mean you don't learn anything about him. Look at his actions, look at his choices, look at his reactions and silent acting, look at how others react to him and then he again reacts to that.
>I felt that the writer's are scared of having the characters talk too much
Because it's film and you aren't limited to fucking speeches every time you want to convey something
>>67880100
>Listen kid
This is a troll thread
7.0
>>67879770
>Zack Snyder is a good cinematographer
Jesus when will this meme end?
Style =! Substance
%29
DC BTFO
What is it about this movie that attracts such monumental retardation?
>>67882381
Yes, I think DCfags and prequelfags are one and the same.
But why? Where is the connection?
>>67882600
Superman remains a threat to others whether intentionally or not, and he seems unable to identify this, how much of a danger he is.
Instead of finding ways to reach out, communicate with the public, he still remains a child hiding refusing any kind of responsibility or any voice with the people.
Some worship him as if a God, and he does nothing. He takes no responsibility for the damage and destruction to so many lives taken place because he is on Earth.
He is a huge hypocrite to tell Batman to stop, when Superman's presence seems to be far more dangerous giving the people a false deity.
>>67882789
Sunk cost fallacy.
Justifying their personal involvement in a movie through objective arguments.
>>67880100
this desu.
this was a sort of ensemble type film. it was complex morally, and towards the end the driving motive of superman pushes through.
>>67882789
>>67882381
I can't decide whether this is bait, or a poor attempt to justify your opinion on the movie.
>>67882869
you attach 'fallacy' to the end of something when you are trying to explain why an argument is faulty, not when you are describing the argument itself. if you don't want to look retarded, you should just write 'sunk cost mentality' or something similar, you just look stupid.
>>67882915
You think it's bait?
Simply pointing out the similarities in behaviour of people defending two very different sets of films?
Do you like the prequels?
>>67882943
But the argument is faulty.
>>67882092
>All of the exchanged conversations between Batman, and Superman.
Hell, man, give me something to work with, this isn't specific at all.
I'll try to humor you though.
Their first conversation is interesting because Clark specifically mentions what does he think of Batman because Clark just discovered it's him by eavesdropping on his conversation with Alfred. Remember that Clark feels like Batman shouldn't be acting the way he is because he's terrorizing criminals and citizens alike.
>Civil liberties are being trampled on.
>Even the sex slaves he rescues are terrified of him.
Bruce getting angry at this shows his frame of mind, he gets offended by what he sees as hypocrisy when he's called out on his bullshit.
The conversation between them after the Batmobile crash catches Clark by surprise when Batman remains defiant even after he threatens him. All their conversations escalate to the point of physical violence, remember that while MoS's central theme was the birth of Superman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3SLLEzkG8c
BvS's central theme is Superman still being a boy and reaching manhood.
>MMM BOYS
>Boys are born with no natural inclination to share.
>Boys share too.
The line "do you bleed?" is very defiant. Bruce's main objective (similar to Lex's) is prove that Superman isn't a God. There are many associations worth mentioning, like the red graffitti sprayed on the monument, the Jolly Rancher, the blood on Zod's mouth, and Superman's slashed cheek, not to mention the direct allusion to Xerxes in 300. Bruce finally proves that Superman is mortal, and it backfires when this realization forges a brotherhood between them.
Also, in my opinion the most powerful line in the whole movie is between them (can't recall it word for word, so bear with me).
>I bet your parents taught you that you were special. Mine taught me something else: dying in the gutter for no reason at all.
That's some powerful shit dude.
>>67882994
no shit, but you were explaining why people like superman, so you should have said 'sunk cost mentality' or 'sunk cost state of mind'. what you wrote doesn't make sense. they didn't like superman because of the fallacy of sunk cost they liked it because they were operating on a sunk cost mode of thinking.
>>67882092
that's because they are plot pieces. this is a comic book plot. it's good because it is basic when it needs to be, which simultaneously allows the broader themes to have a structure.
>>67879770
This movie regardless of what anyone says, is trash. End of discussion.
>>67881045
>>67881170
>>67882122
>>67882444
Keep going with your analysis mate, I picked up on a lot of stuff in the movie but it's interesting to hear from others who saw things I didn't, or different point of views.
>Bruce's change of heart can be traced directly to the fact the Clark cries "You have to save Martha."
No, he hesitates at first but is about to still go through with killing him. It's when Lois comes in and begs and says Martha is his mother that Bruce has his change of heart. She makes Bruce realize that just like him he has a mother that he's trying to save. It makes Bruce realize superman is just like him, but also isn't fighting for himself. It humanizes superman which is why Bruce changes, since he makes a point of saying how he's not courageous (like a human)
It's fitting as Lois is Supermans bridge to earth and humanity, which batman is encapsulating.
>>67882092
>The conversations between Bruce, and Wonder Woman.
Wonder Woman functions as a maternal figure to both Bruce and Clark.
As already pointed out, they're behaving like "boys." Only when the maternal figures of WW and Lois intervene they start to share and cooperate.
>her remark about boys not wanting to share
You want to fuck her.
She is an idealized woman who is on equal footing to Bruce.
>power is everywhere within the movie
Bruce and Diana are at times literally dancing on screen, they are posed in specific ways all the time and flow together and apart as in a dance. neither intimidated by the other at all
Woman and man brought to an equal footing able to cooperate
She is both sexualized and also shown as a competent individual, contrasted to faceless women Bruce has in bed.
There is actually a lot of use of the male/female dynamic in the movie in general.
>this is my world
>you are my world
>woman representing the earth to a guy that came from the sky
>their union represented by the joint bath and well scenes
Remember the scene where Bruce and Diana meet at the charity event, Diana has a dress with an exposed back and she glances over her shoulder and meets Bruce's gaze. This signals that they'll ultimately be forced to cooperate.
The scene where she returns his drive is a homage to Eyes Wide Shut, with the title card's music by Shastakovich https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYhZVqODYsI
This scene implies a lot of intimacy, and the EWS allusion calls back to Diana being secretive and hiding her identity.
Finally this mother figure teaches Supes and Batman the importance of cooperation.
>is she with you?
>I thought she was with you
She has no obligation to be there, but the situation is so dire that she's forced out of a century of hiding because it's a necessity. Diana's teachings are what convince Bruce of the need of forming the Justice League.
>>67882869
buzz buzz this is all I hear
Not personally involved in any way, I analyze films I like, big deal. This is a film board after all. This thread is about a specific movie, make another thread about something else and hide this one. You're just showing your own insecurity by throwing these belittling comments.
>>67883341
I'd say you are reaching so hard you might pull a muscle, but as it happens I enjoy seeing how far it will go.
This is not a case of stop liking what I don't like.
Honestly.
I get that fans of DC was hoping and praying that finally this is the movie that will stop the Marvel Juggernaut and finally get a fat slice of that box office pie on superhero films that Marvel had been gorging on for the past 5 years plus.
I think it might have succeeded in two ways one you might not like DC fans.
First love it or hate it, The DC cinematic Universe has its own vibe then Marvel that keeps it light, has jokes and pretty much happy endings.
The DC cinematic universe is dark set in a realistic world that has problems and no easy solutions. Steaks are high. And the presence of someone like Superman shook the world to the core.
I get why fans of DC are circling the wagons around this film. Failure is NOT an option with this movie.
The second and sorry DC fans, but the backlash of this film having so many problems and getting mauled by the critics might take the superhero movie down for both DC and Marvel and having the public grow tired of the genre. ESP if Civil War is not good.
I respect how DC/Warner Bros wants to set its comic universe apart from the Marvel/Disney and in that case it succeeded. perhaps next time they can make a better film
>>67883165
>regardless of what anyone says
>anyone
Trust no one, not even yourself
>>67882895
>towards the end the driving motive of superman pushes through.
Yeah, many complains focus on the fact that everyone shits on Superman throughout this movie,
>this isn't 1939 anymore
not realizing that it's basically a test of faith for him, and he rises to the task by proving everyone wrong in the end. I found the conclusion rather uplifting.
>>67882987
No the prequels are shit.
>Simply pointing out the similarities in behaviour of people defending two very different sets of films?
You're just making generalizations to try and fell superior for no real reason. Theres plenty of autistic marvel fans, and original trilogy Star Wars fans (you're probably to young to realize Star Wars nerds weren't cool even before the prequels).
You're just making yourself look immature.
>>67883365
whatever you say kid
>>67883385
I'm not a DC fan or comicbook fan in general, never read one in my life. Don't care much for Marvel, company wars, or if DC fails or not either, but I consider this movie a masterpiece.
Now what?
>>67882858
I agree, Superman is a smug asshole in the movie.
>>67883260
>Wonder Woman functions as a maternal figure to both Bruce and Clark.
care to explain your reasoning
>maternal figures of WW and Lois
>Lois
you do realize Clark was fucking Lois, right
and Clark's mother is already in this fucking movie, right
>>67883415
I just don't like that he had to die. Wouldn't the ultimate triumph have been him saving the day and walking out with a wink and smile? That feels more Superman-esque. And yes I know he's not really dead. You know what I mean.
>>67882092
>The conversations between Lois, and Clark.
I've done enough already. Now's your turn to analyze them :^)
Hint: They're central to the story.
>>67879770
Goddamn, those first two sentences are good
>>67883436
Even more immature is relentlessly defending a movie you have nothing to do with.
>>67883438
So very endearing and smart.
Look, you actually raise some good points, but the problem is the pay off.
There is none. A good cinematography does not make a good movie. That it has some good visuals and music does not make it a masterpiece.
>>67883518
I already explained, maternal figures don't necesarily mean she's their actual mother.
She teaches them lessons on cooperating and forging bonds. I explained these with examples in my last post.
>>67882943
not that guy but the "sunk cost fallacy" is a real thing, .05s on google would show you that senpai.
>>67882858
Right, at the start of this film. But he realizes this and tries to come forwards, only to have lex blow shit up.
Did you just ignore what happens in the movie?
>>67883566
>She teaches them lessons on cooperating and forging bonds
no she doesn't, she's not in the movie enough for her character to meaningfully interact with either of them. her character was never instructive. and the bond and cooperation batman and superman forged happened without her involvement
literally everything you wrote is bullshit
>>67883538
>insults people he has nothing to do with
>attacks a movie he has nothing to do with
Oh the irony...
>>67883632
I have done neither.
Making shit up is also pretty immature.
>>67883566
Not the guy you are referring to but I never got the vibe she was maternal.
She was very clearly the first woman to stand tall infront of batman/Bruce which is a big deal, but it wasn't in a maternal way. She "teaches" batman by simply not submitting like every other woman prior (or more correctly batman learns, WW doesn't actually teach Bruce herself).
The same way Lois isn't maternal to superman. Alfred and Martha are more comparable as parental figures (and finch to lex)
>>67883762
>making shit up is also pretty immature
This is too much irony for me.
>>67883520
>Wouldn't the ultimate triumph have been him saving the day
Nah, the sacrifice had impact. The whole movie they build this idea of Clark having doubts. Then he consults with his father about how he got over his guilt, and he replies that meeting his mother helped him cope with the guilt.
>She was my world
Clark has the realization that Lois is HIS world (remember the Earth/Sky duality they share), when he rushes in to save her from drowning even when the fate of the entire world is at stake with Doomsday.
He smiles at her when he realizes that his father was right, he discovers that it's worth sacrificing his life for her.
Remember that earlier they were having doubts about their relationship, during the tub scene:
>I'm not sure if you can still love me and be you.
Clark then makes her a promise by giving her the rose (this is juxtaposed with Bruce leaving flowers on his mother's grave).
Clark fulfills that promise by sacrificing himself, pay attention how his face turns from utter pain and fear when he's impaled to absolute resolve, and he pushes himself further in to be able to pierce Doomsday's heart himself (also a callback to Excalibur and Beowulf. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p49F-qcstw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWmwAdK48vg
The point of the movie is to argue that Superman shouldn't be a figure of adoration.
The monument that people build for him is reaching down from above (demons come from the sky), this causes people to fear and hate him (the crippled man looks at him with contempt). Doomsday destroys this monument, and the new one is a simple plate at ground level that reads:
>IF YOU SEEK MY MONUMENT LOOK AROUND YOU
Instead of a God, now people see him as an inspiring figure, this is what Superman should really be.
>>67883803
More like too much thinking.
It seems that people imply criticism in Marvel movies with "quips," as there is no actual criticism with saying a movie has quips because Die Hard has quips, because they're trying to say that by virtue of Marvel movies not aiming as high with their importance, they're inherently worse than movies like MoS and BvS. But there's nothing wrong with just being a competently put together action movie. People seem to forget that there are a lot of Marvel movies people don't like. Iron Man 2, Iron Man 3, Thor 1, Thor 2, and Age of Ultron all stand out as Marvel movies with lukewarm critical reception. People who like BvS are hung up on an aggregate score instead of looking at the fact that BvS' average score is a 5/10. Thor 1's average score is a 6.7. Thor 2's average score is a 6.8. Age of Ultron's score is a 6.7. Iron Man 2's score is a 6.5. These movies barely skated by on the "fresh" rating while aiming to be dumb, "FUN" action movies.
But BvS doesn't want to be a dumb, fun action movie. And people are right to criticize critics who mark the movie lower because it isn't "fun," but BvS is also fucking terrible at being a movie with higher aspirations. Its approach to constructing a storyline where people let their fears and inadequacies in the face of tangible evidence of a higher power push them to do terrible things to validate their own existences is fucking rife with problems. It struggles to ground its themes in its characters and basically refuses to let them interact with each other until the big, dumb action scene at the end. Its symbolism is blunt and obvious to the point that the movie feels fucking pretentious. It also wants to make the story mythic in proportions and tone, so it jumps all over the place to colorful locales with an enormous ensemble cast without any consideration given to pacing. The movie has ADHD as it jumps around trying to set up 4 different plot lines that it wants to converge and tie up at the end in the sloppiest way possible.
>>67883558
>good cinematography
Read the thread instead of trying to feel superior with every post, try to argue on some specific points that have been made to support your claim that this film is pure cinematography, because in the end you just end up sounding like a dick with shallow arguments and opinions.
>>67883850
Having quips isn't inherently bad, it how marvel movies use then that are what make them so awful.
>>67883850
Hmph. Another one.
*sigh*
Just because YOU didn't understand it doesn't mean we're all as dumb as you are. Go back to watching Hollywood's cinematic offal, you impudent wretch.
>>67883850
>a storyline where people let their fears and inadequacies in the face of tangible evidence of a higher power push them to do terrible things to validate their own existences
You forgot to mention that ultimately they find redemption.
Bruce's final speech is very optimistic, he's portrayed as a broken man but Superman's sacrifice inspires him to do good again.
>Man is still good
>I failed him in life, I won't fail him in death.
>>67883607
>happened without her involvement
She's the first one to teach Bruce that not everyone is against him. He thinks she's opposing him by accusing her of stealing the info, and she replies like, nah man, just burrowed it, don't act like a child.
>>67884055
nigger that had less than nothing to do with his confrontation with superman and its ultimate resolution
>>67883385
>Steaks are high
now i'm disappointed by there being no steaks in bvs
>>67883835
More like thinking too little
>>67884112
Except for the fact that she has no obligation to show up at the Doomsday fight, but she does. They even question each other if any of them called her.
>>67880366
Batman not killing superman because he said Martha was so fucking insane. Was that really the best they could come up with
>>67883890
And I say again that a few good points in the movie, a few call backs to MoS and good music does not make a masterpiece.
The fact that is has good looking scenes, some underlying themes in the scenes and decently smart secondary plots does not make it a masterpiece.
You may decide WW has a huge impact on Batfleck. Wooden acting aside, the fact is that she is shoehorned into a meaningless interaction where the literal idiot Batfleck claims to be looking for the bathroom. The fact he is playing the idiot billionaire does not excuse his complete deer in headlight look, and him being outsmarted by WW is hardly a masterpiece of visual or storytelling.
You may tell yourself that Lois is so very important to Superman because she thematically represents the earth that grounds him. And yet her impact is both minimal and forced, in that the scenario does not establish any use for her outside that of plot device. Throwing the spear into water to make a lady of the lake reference makes some sense, but her magically deciding she needs the spear back to allow for a final interaction with Superman reeks of implication for the sake of the emotional scene.
BvS is just DC trying to make Avengers darker and smarter, with very real work done to please circlejerking critics wanting for actual cinema. Again, it has no payoff, just good scenes that hardly string together. And before you put word in my mouth, the MCU will not be remembered outside of limited cultural impact, and certainly not for its technical work. Critics might look at MoS and BvS for good technical value marred by its follow the leader mentality.
>>67884055
But like I said here >>67883765 that's not being maternal. A woman challenging someone is being maternal. She doesn't "teach" him not everyone is against him, she simply isn't against him herself, which resonates with him.
It's the same way superman isn't being paternal even though he "teaches" Bruce's too..
>>67884439
Read >>67883186
>>67879770
Nobody ever said it wasn't "well made," moron. The Supergirl movie was "well made" too.
>>67883850
>It struggles to ground its themes in its characters
All the characters have development directly related with the themes
>demons come from the sky, angels from earth
Superman is no longer adored like a God, his mortality is proven so now he's an inspirational figure because of his actions, not because of his powers.
>Men are flawed but can still do good
Bruce has a huge character arc, he's a changed man at the end of the movie
>Cooperation and bonds of friendship are necessary
>Diana chooses to leave hiding
>basically refuses to let them interact with each other
What movie did you watch? Everyone interacts before the "big, dumb action scene" that by the way is full to the brim with symbolism and is basically a display of the main characters' arc progression.
>blunt symbolism
care to explain?
>feels pretentious
for you
>>67883984
I didn't feel the need to list every single part of the story in my description of it.
My biggest problem with the movie is the pacing and jumping around everywhere. You don't need the scene in the Indian Ocean where they find the kryptonite when you have Lex show Senator Finch a piece of it, explain everything about it, say he found some in the Indian Ocean, and ask for import permissions or whatever. And THAT scene, with Lex describing kryptonite and asking if he can import it as a deterrence against Kryptonians would have fit perfectly and flowed great from the hearing scene where the woman gives her account of what happens in North Africa. Lex could have been sitting in on the hearing and talked to her after it ends. By combining all three of these scenes, you cut the chaff. Settle the pace of the movie down so it doesn't feel so damn ADHD. The viewer doesn't get whiplash from jumping all over the place. Cutting Lois' scenes in DC would have been good too. She puts together the conspiracy in three largely disconnected scenes. The knowledge that Lex is setting up Superman could have been conveyed by the Russian guy they show doing everything for Lex alone. They should have given Lois more time with Clark. They should have cut the mountain vision quest scene where Pa Kent's ghost shows up and rolled that bit into a conversation with Ma Kent. Clark could have "quit" as Superman and gone back to the farm, spent some time with his mom, and talked through some things. There could have even been a nice dinner scene where Lois comes over (since in this version she wouldn't be globetrotting) and the audience gets a taste of the kind of life Clark would have if he wasn't Superman. Clarks doubts about being a hero come up and Ma Kent tells him the story about how Pa Kent accidentally washed away the other farm. Then Clark, Lois, and Ma Kent all get to interact with this guilt and apprehension Clark feels. It would add some much needed grounding.
>>67884456
>magically deciding she needs the spear back
She saw doomsday, realized he was kryptonian because he's shooting lazer beams and other shit and put 2 and 2 together. They show this clearly but it does seem like she heard batman due to the editing.
>>67884456
>but her magically deciding she needs the spear back
She throws it before Doomsday is revealed, How magical is it to have intuition that the monster that sprang from the Kryptonian ship is Kryptonian in nature, might I ask?
>>67884535
But that's exactly what mother and father figures do, teach. She even refers to Bruce as a child that isn't willing to share, that's very explicit.
>>67883415
me too. I vaguely remember the superman v. doomsday comic book from when i was a kid, but i didn't know what was going to happen. i thought it was a well rounded movie, motivations of characters were simple but not simplistic. basically a good movie adaptation of an interesting comic book story.
>>67883520
i wanted him to stay dead desu.
>>67883590
i obviously know that. you don't say 'he was motivated by the sunk cost fallacy' though. you weren't motivated by the falacy, you were motivated by the already made investment.
>>67884655
She doesn't know it's from the Kryptonian ship because she's out in an abandoned warehouse in Gotham.
Now if you want to say, "Well obviously she knew because it was shooting lightning everywhere before she left," then she shouldn't have thrown it in the water in the first place with such an ominous threat happening nearby.
>>67884587
Well, to be fair, that's a valid opinion. But personally I didn't feel it disjointed, fragmented or jarring in any way. Every scene gives you some important extra information that moves the plot forward. It's just a stylistic choice, it strives to echo a movie epic with its grand scope and varying feel for each scene, the plot can be followed perfectly well if you pay attention, but some people struggled with it.
>>67884727
>then she shouldn't have thrown it in the water in the first place with such an ominous threat happening nearby.
Reminded me of Alfred's reaction.
>What's happening Alfred
>Where to begin sir?
How could anyone predict that the reason the ship was drawing electricity from the city was that it was incubating a giant Frankenstein indestructable monster?
She throws it there to keep it as far away from Clark, the man she loves, for the time being, because it was the only thing that could kill him.
>>67884698
But she isn't actually "teaching", just like superman isn't, they are just being themselves which causes Bruce to reevaluate how he sees them, and the world as a whole
. Being maternal is acting like a mother towards Bruce, which she never does. Saying WW is being maternal is like saying fire is maternal to a kid because it "teaches" them a lesson when they get burned, it doesn't make sense.
And calling him a child is being condescending, not maternal. But that's important for its own reason of showing she isn't intimidated by him.
>>67884953
It's a central point in the film, as already pointed here:>>67882997
>remember that while MoS's central theme was the birth of Superman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3SLLEzkG8c [Embed]
>BvS's central theme is Superman still being a boy and reaching manhood.
Boys need their mothers to grow and mature. Lois, Diana, and Martha each teach them lessons. All three of them function as maternal figures.
>>67879970
I have absolutely no problem beliieving that only somewhere between a third and a quarter of critics are smart enough to pick up what's going on in these films.
>>67885047
I guess where this is where we will have to agree to disagree.
I felt BvS central theme was power, and how Bruce, Clark and lex each deal with it.
I really don't agree that WW woman teaches batman explicitly, nor Lois to superman. Not in a motherly way (which is what being maternal is). There's a very clear dynamic of each major player having a parental, old wise figure and a significant woman in their life.
Lois-Clark-martha
Diana-Bruce-Alfred
Mercy-lex-finch
And I just don't see how what you're saying fits. No offense but I think your definition of maternal is a little broad.
>>67884822
Having a bunch of different plot lines is a stylistic choice, I agree, but failing to settle into any of them for any amount of time is a failure regardless of style. Looking at something like a Lord of the Rings movie after the first one, you have three major plot lines going on at the same time moving toward a common conclusion, but the movie doesn't jump all over from story to story after a minute's worth of dialogue. People seem to gravitate towards liking the first scenes of the movie a lot, with Batman's origin dream and then Bruce in Metropolis. These scenes are relatively long and there's a nice thread of narrative connecting them. The viewer settles into the scene and then an internal rhythm of exposition, rising action, climax, falling action, denouement develops that makes the scene feel satisfying.
Compare the Metropolis scene to the scene in North Africa. Lois arriving by car, asking the warlord if he's a terrorist, the mercenaries checking out the cameraman's gear and discovering he's CIA, executing him, imprisoning Lois, mercenaries killing everyone, and Superman showing up before taking out the warlord happens in the span of about three minutes. There's a lot to process and the audience barely catches up before we swerve to another scene again.
I struggle to remember the order of scenes because of how haphazard and interchangeable a lot of them are. None of them flow into each other well. I distinctly remember a scene where it cuts from a scene not related to Clark to Perry yelling for Clark, asking aloud "Where's Kent? Where does he go to?" and then it cuts to a scene not even related to Clark. What was the point of that scene? It does nothing but chop up any kind of rhythm the movie may have been building.
Rapid fire scenes with no real thread between them and the ones around them is a stylistic choice, sure, but it's pretty definitively bad in this kind of movie.
>>67885047
The lesson that Diana teaches Bruce comes via her leading him into the metahuman mystery and that "no man is an island" by the whole "sharing" conversation.
>>67885224
If the are anything like /tv/ posters it's not surprising.
How often to you ever heard a critic discussing "themes" or "symbolism" or "character development".
>>67885290
Agree to disagree, this film's themes are as extensive as the ways they can be validly interpreted. Your interpretation is as good as anyone else's if it is well supported.
Capeshit is never interesting.
>>67885290
I'd say the central theme is perception versus reality and the struggle to reconcile the two.
>>67885317
"Where's kent?"
It shows he's been missing, due to the bomb going off he's just disappeared completely, both as Clark and superman.
>>67880449
Is there anyone on /tv/ who doesn't overestimate their own intelligence?
>>67885352
>>67885352
>How often to you ever heard a critic discussing "themes" or "symbolism" or "character development".
Any critic worth reading should have a basic understanding of these things if he/she claims to be one, and most critics nowadays really are glorified bloggers. The fact that they don't touch these points in their reviews is proof that they don't understand them and consequently don't take them into consideration. The truth is that they should because they are basic tools for understanding a film.
>>67885422
Oh I agree completely. A good critic is worth their weight in gold.
>>67885414
>>67885359
There's clearly many different themes going on. I also felt that the interaction between god, man and the devil was a major theme too.
>>67885428
Here, I would point to it's positioning in the movie being unnecessary since the first time we see Clark after the bomb going off is outside Lois' window and then he basically resigns and takes off and then the next time we see Clark is him trekking alone through the mountains, but I honestly can't even remember where it was placed chronologically because of how haphazard the editing for the movie seemed to be.
The way that scene is presented anyway is that Perry is asking around because Clark just disappeared. Like he had pulled his Superman act and just went to go save somewhere and is missing suddenly when he was there a second ago.
>"Where's Kent? Where does he go?"
It makes it look like he just left, but if what you're saying is true, then he hadn't even been in that entire day or days. The scene would be more like Perry showing up at his empty desk and looking to the cubicle next to it and saying, "Still no Kent?" and getting an apathetic shrug in response. Maybe Perry would mutter something about how he should fire him when he gets back. If he gets back.
But like I said, I can't even place when the scene even happens to make a complete argument for its treatment and place in the picture of things because it felt randomly dropped in where it was. And that's a problem.
>>67881170
In your opinion, is the false light, the "beautiful lie" thinking that vengeance could bring him peace?
Does that inform his statement at the end about not failing Clark in death? In other words, by his sacrifice, do you think Clark inspired in Bruce a light that's not a lie?Hope? Definitely. Probably justice, too.
Capeshit is the worst genre in cinema.
>>67879909
Wait till that 3-4hr r rated cut. It'll be a fucking masterpiece
Snyder's only mistake was letting studios trim his movie. They always fuck them up low that.
This could've been the Lawrence of Arabia of cape movies had the whole thing been released at one go
This is starting to remind me of a Yoshiyuki Tomino thread on /m/
>WHAT? YOU DIDN'T LIKE G-RECO? YOU PROBABLY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND IT, YOU DIRTY LITTLE RETARD!
>>67885757
And I'd have gleefully sat through it, piss-jug and all.
>>67885599
You know what, I could be wrong on its placement. I can't remember to be honest.
That said, unlike you I'm not as quick to blame the movie. I'm not sure if it's because I just didn't give it much thought so can't remember, or the films fault. For the most part I understood everything that's going on, and I don't think the fact certain scenes could be switched around and not change the story is a valid negative point, it just seems like a observation.
Weirdly. /tv/ talks about kino being a narrative forming from a simple series of moving imagines in a particular order and that's exactly what happens at times in BvS, and people criticize that.
>>67885599
The point of all those scenes where Kent is missing in the office is for the audience to logically assume that in the end Perry discovers that Kent is Superman.
This is proven by the fact that when Lois asks for the chopper, and tells Perry that it isn't for a story, he instantly acquiesces, because he understands. This is juxtaposed with the scene where he denies her flying to DC in economy plus, and insists her on flying coach.
Perry helps in hiding Clark's identity by purposefully burying his obituary in the last pages, while Superman's death is in the first page. Because of this action the conversation between Perry and Clark about choosing the stories that are truly important.
Didn't feel haphazard in any way.
>Clark is missing
>Perry questions it and is visible frustrated
>Next we are shown where he is
How is this haphazard in any way?
>>67885777
Honestly, I'd stop saying it if once someone who says it's rap picked up on anything more than the most superficial of its themes. Frequently, they can't even interpret that one correctly.
>>67885944
>*about choosing the stories that are truly important gains significance.
These kind of arguments wouldn't happen as often if people knew what film was.
>>67885944
http://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/man-steel-secrets/
>Goyer: "Obviously we sidestepped the alter ego problem in this movie. We were conscious of that. Obviously it’s not an issue with Lois. Moving forward she’s his secret keeper, and part of the fun for us if we do move forward is they will be involved in a real relationship and she will be part of that, maintaining that fiction. Part of the fun of doing this though, and Chris has always said this, is that sometimes you write yourself into a corner, but you have to follow it to its logical conclusion and see if you can figure a way out of it.
>"I think that Perry’s not an idiot either – Perry knows they have a connection, he saw that they kissed – and at the end of the film we are very aware of that. So one would presume that moving forward Perry would say, ‘What’s the deal here?’ If the film is embraced over the next few weeks and we formalise things, that’s something we plan to follow up on."
So yeah, Perry knows that Clark is Superman.
>People say BvS is bad
>Ask them why
>They nitpick unimportant shit
>Completely ignore that the movie had good parts
>>67885657
Not the guy you are replying to, but I think the "beautiful lie" was that becoming batman would some how fix things (crime, Gotham, the world, his parent death) yet it only lead to more misery .
He sees the hope that becoming batman brought him as a lie, so he turns cynical. Superman makes him realize his cynicism was wrong and his hope wasn't a lie.
>>67886097
>They nitpick unimportant shit
Exactly.
Snyder is aware that he's dealing with one of the most iconic characters in popular mythos, he respects Superman immensely. And accordingly he strives to elevate the medium in order for it to fill Superman's shoes.
Meanwhile, entitled manchildren fail to grasp his work emotionally and intellectually, and incessantly complain about petty shit because they arrogantly believe they have the last word on how these characters should and would act, not realizing Superman belongs to no one and everyone.
Don't worry, you fucking fat fucks. Snyder's so aware of this that BvS practically took a magnificent artistic shit on you fanboys and you didn't even notice. And he knew that you weren't going to notice. The whole film criticizes this way of thinking. Most of the complaints from fanboys were actually deliberate artistic choices fully aware of the consequences. For example Joker Lex, or the JL teaser spliced right in the climax, when after all everyone just paid to watch Batman and Superman fight (for all they care they could fastforward everything else).
Snyder provides an alternative to mindless entertainment, escapism, and power fantasies. He uses Superman as the vehicle to inspire a cynical generation.
People haven't noticed that their reaction to BvS was exactly how Snyder predicted they were going to react. He understands modern society and its decay so well, that he knew he was going to get crucified by glorified bloggers and "nerds".
Just face it, you're out of your league, and you've been exposed as lacking basic film and film analysis understanding, not to mention the emotional maturity of a brick.
>>67885785
>>67885785
You mean your grannies peach tea jar
>>67886160
This pasta's growing on me.
>>67886161
I love that people made memes out of things they believed to be stupid shit without thought put into them, when in reality everything had a point.
>Take a bucket of piss and call it Granny's Peach Tea. Take a weapon of assasination and call it deterrence, you won't fool me.
That jar of piss is Lex mocking her, and she realizes that he actually took her words literally, and he plans to bomb the place as a "method of deterrence" to turn everyone against Superman. The scene is edited masterfully, more tense than anything Nolan could've imagined in a fever dream. There's this quick cut to Luthor's empty seat, the Senator's terrified face as she realizes what's unfolding, and finally Superman sensing something is wrong but not being able to react quick enough because he's still riddled with guilt about the deaths he feels he's responsible of, because he refuses to face the crippled man face to face,
It's great because if you've been paying attention you realize there's a bomb at the same time as the Senator does. Hitchcock tension 101, bomb under the dining room table. There's also the reference to the crippled guy being Lex's blade to cut the Gordian Knot of turning everyone against Superman.
>>67885944
But you don't need a scene of Perry looking around confused where Clark is to establish that Perry knows he's Superman. I would even contest that he even knows Clark is Superman based on how casually callous he is about Superman's media depiction right in front of Clark for the rest of the movie.
Him giving Lois a chopper doesn't mean that he knows Superman is Clark, it just means he's actually a real friend of Lois, as also demonstrated by the scene where he denies her economy plus. The conspiracy story was important to her and she was really fired up about it, so Perry went against his initial judgment of not covering it and let her follow her leads. She's a good reporter and a good person. She was on the verge of tears when she was asking for the chopper, so Perry knew whatever it was, it was important. He didn't even know where Superman was at that moment and wanted her to cover the shit going down at the Kryptonian ship.
>Clark is missing
>Perry questions it and is visible frustrated
>Next we are shown where he is
I legitimately can't tell you if you are right or wrong about the following scene showing where Clark is, but if you're right, what is the point of showing that Clark is missing when the very next scene shows us that Clark is missing because he's half way around the world? It's unnecessary and creates even more lag in the viewer's understanding and settling into a scene as they get whipped from (I'm assuming you're right about when the scene takes place) Perry looking for Clark in Metropolis to a snowy mountaintop where Clark is shown for about two seconds before he sees Jonathan Kent throwing rocks into a pile. A simple establishing shot would have been great between these two things.
This specific conversation is digressive in tone since we're arguing about the handling of one specific scene, where my point was that this happens for multiple scenes. Bruce staring contemplatively at his bat suit in the batcave is another one.
>>67886197
Also this
>>67881632
>>people who bash the movie avoid discussion threads like the plague
>nothing new in /tv/
This always becomes true, whenever an actual discussion starts, people stop shitposting and posting epic problematic Evans and get the fuck out of dodge.
>>67886161
Hey,you can call it what you want.I'll just remember to stay the fuck away from wheelchairs.
Are there any REAL problems with this movie?
I literally don't understand where the hate is coming from.
>>67886226
It was a fantastic scene. Everyone raves about the into but that scene was right up there.
The bit that was really the cherry on top for me was seeing supermans face right after turn to complete defeat and realization. Henrys acting was definitely a step up from MoS
>>67886296
>what is the point of showing that Clark is missing when the very next scene shows us that Clark is missing because he's half way around the world?
The mountain scene not only has the objective of showing where Clark is, but to give us a glimpse on his frame of mind. He's riddled with doubt, even more after the explosion. And his father's story reveals that Clark is deeply troubled by guilt about the people that have died because of him.
This idea of being extremely troubled by guilt is also explored in the Doomsday fight, not many people realize that this fight is also full to the brim with symbolism. Remember how Doomsday destroys Superman's monument, and grabs one of the pillars with the names of the people that died on the World Engine incident and smashes it on top of Superman's head, giving us a visual of how Clark is absolutely haunted by these deaths.
The best way to describe guilt is a massive burden, and how best to describe it than the feeling of a pillar being smashed on top of your head?
I for one am glad that there's usually at least one film per year that's so controversial in /tv/ that it forces some kind of discussion regarding film itself.
In the past Prometheus and MoS, this year BvS.
>>67886226
Some other guys clued me into some awesome symbolism in that scene, too.
Essentially, the three central players(Clark, Bruce, and Lex) all have characters who serve as their voice of reason, respectively, they are Martha, Alfred, and Senator Finch. Each of these characters speaks to their counterpart about truth or their perception of it. In the hearing scene, Lex murders his voice of reason, and as an added bonus, he murders his mercy along with it.
>>67886368
>Are there any REAL problems with this movie?
Too smart.
>>67886425
It will be really interesting to see how the Civil war discussion compares to this.
>>67886226
And it would have been so much better had there been any ambiguity whether or not she drank from it.
As it is, its just a juvenile joke that should have been overlooked by the senator.
And if you did not realise there was a bomb way before, then you are clearly not as smart as you make yourself out to be.
>>67886425
wait for this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrK1f4TsQfM
>>67886420
No, I get the point of Clark's vision quest, even though I heavily disagree with its existence because it takes away from a possible interaction with the other, actually alive, Kent.
The anon said that Perry's bewilderment scene was placed so that you would know that Clark is missing and the following scene shows where Clark is. My point is that showing Clark on the mountaintop already shows that he is missing AND where he is, so the Perry scene is just another bump for the pacing to trundle over.
I will say here though that Superman literally being beat over the head with the names of the people that died in Metropolis was super heavy handed and I rolled my eyes at it in the theater.
>>67886420
In regards to Pa Kent, I'm coming to believe that his scenes, taken in succession are cues for the audience as to where Clark stands in terms of emotional maturity and wisdom.
I know how cringey it sounds, but I do think that the reason BvS is so hated is because it's a "mature" movie.
Yes, I know it's a capeshit, but the themes in it are more mature than most marvels and even when marvel has mature shit, the tone is light.
Snyder is like Gen Urobuchi, his works are gritty and dark(colorwise and thematically), and almost always the same format. But you shouldn't judge a movie based on a directors past work, different things.
>>67886226
To add to my post here >>67886378, the one thing I was disappointed about was how right after we got a tv report about how it was a bomb in the wheel chair. I really wanted to see how things played out with everyone believing he did that.
>>67886490
Just a copypasta with a lot of information, really didn't feel the need of typing more shit. You can deduce there is a bomb the moment Lex's seat is shown to be empty, or even before that when he tells the senator she's going to be on the hot seat.
>Too often have the conversations revolved around the menial, juvenile and unimportant aspects of the comic book heritage being kept vs the more important and substantial issues of true cinema.
Afuckingmen
Anyone who bitches about remaining true to the source material vs the director's dream and scope don't belong on this board.
Art is all about interpretation. Fuck you if you didn't get it.
>>67881045
no one can deny that chunks of this movie are Amazing, but it just doesnt work as a whole.
>>67886506
>it takes away from a possible interaction with the other, actually alive, Kent.
Why show two scenes with Martha? First she consults her mother, then his father. The mountain scene's also an allusion to Christ speaking with his father before being crucified.
Perry's scene gives another clue to help you deduce that in the end he discovers Superman's identity.
>>67886506
>showing Clark on the mountaintop already shows that he is missing AND where he is
Considering how quick he gets to burning building he sees on the tv, it has to be established he's missing, not just running around everywhere. He's superman remember, we don't assume he's been missing for a long time during the Africa incident.
>>67886521
Discussions with Pa Kent seems to represent his internal conflict at any time.
>>67886506
>Superman literally being beat over the head with the names of the people that died in Metropolis was super heavy handed
I'm pretty sure even still not many people caught on it, and not many modern action-focused blockbusters employ these tools. I for one applaud WB for striving to add depth to the genre.
>>67886573
It's working better every time I see it.
I entered into both these and very nearly failed to pick up on a lot of the headier stuff that the critics overlook. After seeing BvS, I revisited MoS and the two are so much more than I ever thought at first glance.
Murder on the cutting room floor notwithstanding, I firmly believe that what remains is a masterpiece, and what remains does so for some very specific reasons. His vision reached us maimed, but essentially still flight worthy.
You will believe a man can fly.
>>67886531
>gritty and dark
I disagree on the dark part, this movie is chockfull of colorful and bright moments, the Indian Ocean and the Day of the Dead scenes instantly comes to mind.
Also, on the thematically dark part, most people fail to understand that the ultimate message is hopeful and uplifting.
>>67886603
>Perry's scene gives another clue to help you deduce that in the end he discovers Superman's identity.
Not to mention that Perry's question -"Where is Clark" - works on two different levels.
>>67886711
Personally I love every minute of it, also remember that this isn't even this film's final form.
>>67886765
Reminds me of the end of MoS, where Lois says to Clark:
>Welcome to the Planet.
>>67886603
>Why show two scenes with Martha?
Why not? Why is it bad to actually ground themes in the characters and their interactions? What would be so bad about Superman being depicted in the movie as a person having an actual conversation with his mother? With the character that would become the crux for the emotional turning point in the movie? And my suggestion would be to just have one long scene with Martha where they have an actual conversation and she ends up telling him the story about the horses. I hate that the only time Superman interacts with his mom in this movie is a very short, small scene that consists entirely of stilted trailer dialogue.
I also take umbrage with the fact that simply by being an allusion to something, that it is inherently good or imparts quality on a piece. That is just not true. That is the kind of false depth that makes a movie feel pretentious. One of my complaints with the movie is that it hits you over the head with religious symbolism and parallels. Subtlety isn't a virtue or anything, but it's appreciated when your movie is just so damn heavy with the "heady" metaphors and whatnot.
I've already said my piece on why that scene is unnecessary with regards to Perry's knowledge of Superman's identity.
>>67886420
>>67886506
Also people forget that this whole Doomsday affair is direct commentary on post-9/11 guilt and cynicism. 9/11 wasn't subtle, it had a huge worldwide impact, and everyone seems to want to avoid the topic even today.
>>67886770
Diamonds, my friend. Diamonds.
>>67886804
>What would be so bad about Superman being depicted in the movie as a person having an actual conversation with his mother?
Again, why have two different scenes with Martha after Kent's disappearance, they practically would need to be 5 minutes apart.
Or maybe I misunderstood your point, are you implying that more scenes with Martha throughout the film were needed? In my opinion that single scene when he's at his lowest is poignant enough.
>>67886858
What does the Doomsday conception and fight say about 9/11?
>>67886804
>Why not? Why is it bad to actually ground themes in the characters and their interactions? What would be so bad about Superman being depicted in the movie as a person having an actual conversation with his mother? With the character that would become the crux for the emotional turning point in the movie? And my suggestion would be to just have one long scene with Martha where they have an actual conversation and she ends up telling him the story about the horses. I hate that the only time Superman interacts with his mom in this movie is a very short, small scene that consists entirely of stilted trailer dialogue.
Because he's not actually talking to father Kent. It's in his head.
He's not actually getting advice, he's figuring things out for himself. He's thinking of a story he was told as a kid, realizing what it meant and how it applies to him as an adult, what kent would say if he was there.
It's showing superman figuring things out for himself, it's a glimpse into his thought process. It can't all be "superman doesn't know what the fuck to do so talks to X"
>>67886804
>I also take umbrage with the fact that simply by being an allusion to something, that it is inherently good
The point is that these are not allusions for the sake of it, it opens a dialogue between icons and myths of the past with these characters. For example, the Moby Dick allusion gives you a pretty good idea of at what lenghts Bruce is willing to destroy himself to seek his revenge. Every single allusion has a reason for it to be there, ask me about any of them that bothered you, because they're not cheaply hamfisted just for fun like some people seem to imply.
>>67886983
*lengths
I really liked it, might even pick up a physical copy
The editing towards the end really was odd though, I think they decided to add in more scenes with Wonder Woman or something.
One scene during the final fight where she stops and stares at the camera with a smirky smile and the background looks different
narrative structure, explained
http://pulpklatura.tumblr.com/post/141843209469/batman-v-superman-the-modern-revenge-tragedy
>>67879770
This is one of the most cringeworthy posts on /tv/, which is pretty impressive. It's like you went out of your way to write a needlessly wordy, self-important essay using criticspeak to use a lot of syllables to say basically nothing of substance.
>embraced cinephiles at it's core.
"cinephiles" generally like well-structured movies with properly motivated characters and a coherent plot.
>The cinematography aspects of good film making were made colloquially acceptable and given providence in exchange for the typical casual draw of the average cinema goer.
Using way too many words. Brevity and wit and so forth. Using words like "colloqually" and "providence" in this context don't make you look smart, it makes you look tryhard. Are you practicing for your SAT essay or something? You're not really even using them right, and the point you're trying to make is muddled by your attempt to seem smart. No wonder you enjoyed BVS so much. It's like the movie version of your shitty writing.
>Too often have the conversations revolved around the menial, juvenile and unimportant aspects of the comic book heritage being kept vs the more important and substantial issues of true cinema.
No they havent. Also, define "true cinema" and explain what exactly are these "important and substantial issues" that people aren't talking about?
>embraced the commonality of the common man
Meaningless and redundant.
> the very real trials and tribulations of individuals.
not evidenced by the source material.
>Coupled with a well executed vision
there are quite a few instances where it's evident that his "vision" is pretty short-sighted. He'll make one hell of a sequence, but the film as a coherent whole is lacking.
> new takes and angles for high quality shots
Almost all of his shots are based on comic book compositions or religious imagery. Not very "new."
>this movie deserves the appraise of a 5 star movie.
How're those ESL classes going?
>>67886931
Doomsday basically embodies all the hate, fear, and cynicism people directed towards Superman. Much like the cynicism that sprouted from 9/11. So Superman is fighting his own demons, this is hammered to the audience in the final sacrifice when they stab each other.
Also, the fact that he grows even more powerful each time he's attacked. This can be compared with how conflicts can escalate with aggression and fear mix, similar to how the media reacted to 9/11.
>>67887074
Thanks Madsen, luv ya babe.
No one really talks about the finer details of the film and the message it's trying to portray.
>Kent's glasses falling to the floor
>Manbat
>Dissolve of American ideals
>DINGDINGDINGDING
While the movie falls apart at the halfway mark, it would be interesting to see someone's analysis on it nonetheless.
>>67886925
My point is that they don't need two different scenes, they need one longer scene. The movie needs less scenes. The movie is already bloated with scenes. Some scenes need to be rolled together.
Written in a way where Clark takes Lois to dinner at the family farm with Ma Kent, you could kill three or four birds with one stone. In the movie, you could have the conversation with Lois about Superman as an idea and symbol meaning something to people, that he's all some people have. You have could have the conversation with Ma Kent about Clark not really owing the world anything just because he happened to grow up in it. You could also have the story about the horses told by Ma Kent. Along with having all of these characters interact so their various ideologies bounce and rub off on each other. The end of the movie shows that Clark was going to marry Lois with the ring he had sent to the farm. How does Ma Kent feel about this? How does she feel about Lois in general? How does her opinion that Clark doesn't really have any obligation to be Superman because he's a person with wants and needs too sound to Lois who whole-heartedly wants him to be that larger-than-life superhero for people? How do Lois and Ma Kent feel about Clark's struggle with his guilt concerning unintended consequences from his actions? Can they empathize with it? Do they handwave it by saying it's not his fault? Do they say it's just something he has to accept? Do they openly condemn or condone his actions when all the collateral deaths are brought into the conversation?
These are all things that add depth and nuance to the characters. A long scene like that would have done wonders for the movie's pacing; it would have slowed things down and let the audience catch their breath after being whipped around from place to place and built a nice lull before the non-stop action that dominate the last act of the movie.
>>67886521
lol bro you think?
mos was birth
bvs was adulthood
what do you anons think comes next
>>67887080
*how conflicts can escalae when aggression and fear mix, similar to how the media and the governments reacted to 9/11
>>67887080
I think that's you choosing to make those analogies, there's nothing specific to suggest it represents 9/11 at all.
>>67887033
I don't think she looked at the camera, but that smirk really stuck out. It didn't seem to fit with how WW had be characterized up to that point. It was something straight out of marvel.
>>67887114
Personally I liked the film's narrative style. But kudos to you, your criticism is better and more well informed than the gripes that most critics had.
>>67887149
>there's nothing specific to suggest it represents 9/11 at all
Are you serious? How is MoS's ending not a huge 9/11 callback, also Bruce's point of view?
Remember how the World Engine's ominous sound haunts Bruce's dreams. It's all 9/11 bro.
>>67887113
Yeah but it was really dumb that Superman didn't just throw the spear at Doomsday. 2/10, garbage.
>>67886933
>It can't all be "superman doesn't know what the fuck to do so talks to X"
Oh, but it could be, anon. It could be.And it would be shit. I think Salieri from "Amadeus" summed it up nicely when he told Mozart, "You didn't even give them a nice bump at the end to tell them it was finished."
Thank Zack for delivering us from Generic Expository Sounding Board #230385.
>>67887149
>It didn't seem to fit with how WW had be characterized up to that point
She's a legendary warrior that hasn't seen action in a century, she's overjoyed by being in combat again.
>>67887080
Your metaphor, for Doomsday representing fear, anger, frustration, and shit like xenophobia in a post-9/11 world only getting stronger if you try to combat those feelings only works at the most shallow, general understanding of it. And yet, at the same time, fails because Doomsday is in fact killed with physical force when Superman drives a spear through its heart in another scene which I'm sure you'll tell me is great because it uses iconography from another movie and because Superman died for our sins.
>>67887205
Shit tier bait, it wasn't enough to pierce Doomsday's skin, not to mention that he aimed for the heart for a reason. Remember that even after charging at full speed it wasn't enough, he had tu push himself even further.
>>67887225
Yup, that was straight-up Amazonian lust for battle. And it was fucking hot.
>>67887226
>because Superman died for our sins.
he didn't,
and i take the superman death as an indictment of the treatment of christ in our own world, though that goes into weird territory of trying to piece what jesus mean when he said shit like "i am the way"
>>67887149
I loved WW's smirk after she gets punched by Doomsday, she's remembering how thrilling it was to beat up trolls instead of attending drab high society parties.
>>67887194
Because 9/11 isn't the only time a building fell.
>>67887205
I'm guessing because he was weak holding the spear so if he threw it it either wouldn't have been strong enough or doomsday could have just dodged it.
Also I think he realized he only had one shot so had to make sure hit was a mortal wound, and even then he had to keep driving it right through doomsday.
>>67887226
It's 9/11 commentary, deal with it. MoS's World Engine was blatant 9/11 commentary too, no matter how hard you try to deny it.
>>67887226
Doomsday does work well as a metaphor for Clark's own guilt though, and him killing it could be a portent of things to come.
>>67887225
I got that, but it seemed out of place within this movie. I wanted to understand how it fitted into the bigger i true (because everything else in this film does in some way)
>>67887281
I didn't deny it, I just think it's incredibly shallow and superficial in BvS and incredibly misguided and sloppy in MoS. I feel like you are mixing up mine and another anon's words.
>>67887280
>Because 9/11 isn't the only time a building fell.
Not the only one that thinks it's 9/11
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/film/batman-v-superman-dawn-of-justice/world-trade-centre-9-11-movies/
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/433246/batman-v-superman-culture-war-gets-mythic
>>67887271
It's best to lay aside the Supes-as-Jesus theme. He's not a god, he's not trying to be. The only reason the imagery is even there is to remind the audience that everyone in his world perceives him as a god. In other words, if you look at Supes and see a god, you're doing the man a discourtesy.
>>67886933
No one is under the impression that an actual ghost was talking to him. Just because he interacts with another person doesn't mean he's not working out an internal conflict on his own. You don't have to be physically isolated to figure stuff out. There's nothing wrong with considering other viewpoints and opinions when forming your own.
>>67887340
i take it further and take his death to mean that seeing anyone as a god is a discourtesy, our hopes and dreams are for and by all of us, not for one individual entity we see as an absolute
in fact, both movies deal with absolutes
>mos, foreign invader with a fundamentalist view where every individual is predestined to a function. clarks birth is a heresy
>bvs, perceptions driven out of our own inner workings cloud our view of each other, this is a source of anxiety for everyone
superman didn't die as some sort of transaction, he died in a dialectical way to negate the tension created beforehand
>>67887226
>>67887281
>>67887271
It isn't Christ or 9/11. Doomsday does represent all the guilt about collateral damage coming back to haunt him (made obvious with being better in the head by the monument), but the whole spear thing is very clearly a King Arthur/mordred parallel (there battle ends the exact same way), there's King Arthur parallel all through the movie.
>>67887325
There are people that died and lost their families, during the attacks and on the wars that followed. The guy in the wheelchair leaves a photograph of his deceased mother and child at the monument. Why is it shallow to comment on the fact that people are still haunted and a culture of fear developed because of this event? How is it shallow to deal with these uncomfortable questions, and comment on the fact that it's time to move on and give an uplifting final message? It's not denying that it happens, and it shows it with a realistic light.
>>67887281
The world engine is symbolic of Superman's premature "birth" as Superman. The Kryptonians forced him into the limelight before he was really ready. The World Engine itself even resembles the forceps used occasionally during child delivery.
The destruction that occurs during his fight with Zod, on the other hand, is arguably symbolic for 911, at least from Bruce's perspective.
>>67887435
the parallels between zod and fundamentalist terrorists is just now hitting me
>>67887435
Well said.
>>67887472
Oh shit. Me too.
>>67887450
>mother and child
>wife and child
>>67887340
>>67887435
>>67887484
for me the payoff of making superman a christ figure in mos is in the negation of it in bvs
we save ourselves and each other, the idea of an external absolute savior doesn't work
>>67882468
why is WW's theme in 7/8?
>>67887562
some music dudes have noted that her music resembled ancient greek music
>>67887450
It is entirely shallow to comment on the fact that people have lost loved ones and fear others they associate with the event. That's about the most basic and readily available message anyone who is living in a post-9/11 America understand. What was the uncomfortable question posed and explored by the movie?
One uncomfortable question could be "Are those fears justified?" The movie doesn't really explore that since Lex and Bruce are clearly in the wrong the entire time. Bruce realizes he's wrong and changes for the "better," I use quotes because the movie poses his reversal on his position as a moral good, and Lex sticks to his conviction and is depicted as the bad guy. It's the most straight laced reply to the question.
>>67887416
>you don't have to be physically isolated to figure stuff out.
No, but this is the only time we see him do that. Its part of him becoming a man and standing on his own two feet, yet using his past experiences and interactions to do that. Having it with father kent is far more meaning full precisely because he's dead and it was entirely from superman not acting.
>There's nothing wrong with considering other viewpoints and opinions when forming your own.
When did I even suggest that?
>>67887551
For me, the consistent Christ motif actually comes from the very heart of the source material - essentially, that by virtue of his heritage and his environment, Clark appears god-like to people even though he's just a man struggling to find a way to be inspirational without being deified.
>>67887450
It's shallow to associate it specifically to 9/11. It's an extremely arbitrary association.
>>67887640
yeah that's why i don't take 'not muh' type of statements seriously
what i'm commenting on is the way they're playing with not only the character but the ideas and meanings within savior myths themselves
>>67887600
Holy crap. Really? I keep finding new ways to be impressed with the attention to detail.
If I might take it down a notch from discussing imagery and symbolism, were any of you guys able to explain Lex's prototype bullets? I've integrated all the other information about him into what I, at least, believe was his actual long-term goal, but the bullets still elude me.
>>67887562
ye 7/8's is common in greek folk music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_naZj0Hloc
>>67887620
You're right, it is the only time we see him go out alone to figure stuff out in a 2 and half hour movie. Which is indicative of the problems I've been talking about all thread about the fact that the movie is bloated with unnecessary scenes. Disregarding that though, there's absolutely nothing denoting weakness or something unmanning him because he comes to conclusions in the company of others.
>When did I even suggest that?
When you implied that Superman talking to Lois or Ma Kent can only be a "superman doesn't know what the fuck to do so talks to X" scene. Having a conversation with someone isn't you just asking them for advice, it's your opinions, ideas, feelings, fears, and aspirations filtered through whatever personality you deem acceptable, as judged by a combination of all the aforementioned things, for interacting with that person. The scene doesn't even need a moping Superman because he doesn't know how to approach his current situation. That stuff can be held back behind a brave facade, but Ma Kent and Lois still know about it.
This stuff is conducive to drama and interesting stories and film.
>>67887607
>Are those fears justified?
Oh anon, but this is explored too.
>You were always right about him.
>Fear him.
Don't forget that these themes will be further explored, the movie's dialogue with itself isn't done yet. Superman becoming a tyrant has already been foreshadowed.
>>67887761
llloolllllllll
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S176AKQhcCk
>>67887551
One interesting little bit in the movie is when someone, I think the senator, says "what will will we tell our kids? Superman could have saved your parents" (or something like that).
It's alludes to how they force the responsibility of everyone's lives on to superman, that inaction would be a sin or wrong. What's fascinating is how superman doesn't treat everyone equal, it isn't always random chance that you get saved. He puts Lois on a pedestal so quite clearly shows favoritism in who he saves. It also goes along nicely with how his mother say he's doesn't owe anyone anything.
People choose not the be a soldier, policemen or firemen, a hero and aren't vilified. Yet Martha's the only person giving him that option.
It's a massive smack in the face to fans who hold superman up as this perfect superhero who should save everyone, who see him as more than just a man.
>>67887672
Not arbitrary when it clearly still has an impact on modern society. It also compares this generation's strugge to the baby boomers' (Martha's grave shows that she was born in 1946).
>The American conscience died with Martin, Robert, and John.
Hmm. wonder who Perry was referring to, and to which generation's optimist it impacted most gravely upon.
>>67887880
*optimism
>>67887837
Why did she have a themesong that sounded straight out of Spy kids?
So much concentrate autism. All this assuptions could be said about any movie. Snyder's storytelling sucks, stop eating that shit up and tellimg me it's chocolate
>>67887880
it always bothered me that the hippies didn't accomplish shit, although apparently the drug war was a tactic of marginalizing groups nixon felt as a threat. so i guess it makes sense when you look at the current state of groups affected by that...
>>67887943
i don't know about everyone else, but i'm not telling you what you should be tasting, i'm telling you what the movie is chemically composed of.
it's a win win, i get to talk about the movie, and you get to signal yourself as having superior taste ;)
>>67887943
kek, never change /tv/
>You're right, it is the only time we see him go out alone to figure stuff out in a 2 and half hour movie. Which is indicative of the problems.
I disagree completely, and now I don't even understand your point. You're saying that him having only one self reflecting scene is a problem, so want to cut the only scene they have.
>>67887771
But he does talk to Martha, and Lois. I don't see why your complaining that he then went off to consider all that and more on his own. My whole grip is you seem to think its only meaningful when it's with another person. I think the fact that this time he was alone reflecting is important to his character development, since he hasn't done that before. That alone says something while dinner with Martha doesn't.
>>67888028
Also consider the fact that most people found this movie meandering and boring, with action mingled too far betwen. Now people are complaining that it needed more dialogue-driven scenes.
>>67887943
Can you please do a similar analysis of batman and Robin
You know what was terrible about the movie?
The song that kicked in when Wonderman came onto the scene.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK
JUST FACE THE FACT THAT IT'S A GREAT FILM
>>67888128
I liked it, the theme was also hinted at during Bruce-Diana interactions.
Also what was already pointed out: >>67887837
>>67887761
Plus electric cello plus drums gives it a modern/ancient warrior feel
>>67888135
No.
Saying it is a great film is like saying this cyclops is cute
>>67888258
BUT..!!
>>67888277
Am I kawaii?
Uguu~
Snyder's a sly dog
241 / 15 / 50 / 7
BVS without africa-desert scene and flash dream wouldve been perfect.
>tfw i'm not sure what they're ultimate intent is
>i didn't think their universe stuck
>it's actually starting to stick here
>we know they're watching us
