http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/03/30/superman-and-the-damage-done
Thoughts?
I don't care about an inherently vapid capeshit character being misrepresented so much as how Goyer and Snyder made shitty movies with inconsistent and often nonsensical characterization
No, you really can't. Superman at his core is an archetype. Snyder made a Superman who would be in the real world, who wouldn't be loved by everyone at all times, and who would be fallible and doubt himself. I really respect that
>>67712547
no, it was a good bad universe superman
>>67712868
>good bad universe superman
what did she mean by this?
>>67712703
Shut up Joanne
>>67712794
Totally agree, interesting take on the character.
All versions of Superman are an interpretation in any case, why does BvS need to be the "definitive" Superman?
>>67712926
A well executed Superman in the context of a malevolent continuity.
>>67713000
>JESUS
>TRIPS
AHHHHHHHHHHHH SON OF GOD SURFS THE 4CHAN
>>67713000
tripping jesus confirms it
>>67712996
I don't know. Commie and Injustice Superman is okay and so is Ultraman but not someone who is relatable and i can relate to
i like how the majority of the names are female
>>67712996
Are you retarded or just pretending?
You don't just make a Superman movie and then a crossover with Batman only to say "oh, but this doesn't have to be the definitive superman"
These aren't some forgettable cartoon movies we're talking about
>>67712547
Read it. Dude is looking at Supes through the nostalgia lens. When he first came on the scene, he was a lot rougher than he'd become by the 70s. It also overlooks one of the single most glaring problems with creating an interesting Superman story(and no, I'm not about to say that the character is uninteresting).
Like any subject, he's only as compelling as the writer can make him. Comic book writers, at least the good ones, figured out long ago that the interesting part about Superman isn't that he can break planets in half or fly through the heart of the sun. It's that at his core, he's a simple farm boy from Kansas. Truly deft writers explore that dichotomy - a man with the powers of a god. Like any other mortal, Superman struggles with the same doubts and fears as the rest of us. What's compelling is bearing witness to how he overcomes the same problems we all face - struggling to find his own path, the right answers, the way to best serve his fellow man.
While I have only the utmost respect for the Donner films from the 70s, I'm not blind to the Superman they portray. He's largely infallible, always seems to know the right thing to do, no matter what's thrown at him. As pure escapism, there's nothing finer, but it leaves the character with no room to grow. I, for one, appreciate what Snyder is attempting to give us in this series of films - a front row seat to the making of a true hero, not a man in sky that solves our problems for us, but rather a man who inspires us to rise above the people we were just yesterday.
>>67713233
There's no such thing as a definitive Superman, Brianna. The Superman everyone loves is unrelatable as fuck
Superman grew up with good parents. He was raised well. If he was raised by criminals though, that's another idea.
>>67712547
The author is right.
>It’s like making a Strawberry Shortcake movie that is all about diabetes.
This exactly. Warner should never have let Snyder anywhere close to Superman. He made a hopeless doubtful & joyless Superman. He's superman by name and costume, the soul isn't there at all.
>>67713655
>hopeless
what movie did you watch? both ended on hopeful notes
>>67712868
The fuck are you talking about
>>67713719
>destroys half of metropolis
>dies
It's like I'm overwhelmed with hope
>>67714444
>chooses to sacrifice himself for the greater good
>saves the whole world twice
>>67714566
Not to mention that his sacrifice seems to have brought the Batman back to the hero's path.
>>67714707
this too
you literally cannot have hope without despair. hope means nothing otherwise
Frankly, Marvel's treatment of Captain America is exactly how WB should treat Superman. They're essentially similar characters: Captain America and Superman are both incredibly virtuous, nerdy, wholesome guys who rarely struggle with their own moral codes, but who find conflict when their morals do not line up with the populous's, or the government, or whoever.
Snyder's Superman in one image.
>>67714778
Cap is so poorly written it isn't even funny.
>>67712547
if superman represented the zeitgeist and the ideals needed to overcome the problems of the era in 1938 why cant he represent the same today?
We live in a time overly obsessed about emotions and "ethical" behaviour that doesnt hurt or offend anyone to the point we are pretty much helpless in face of REAL evil and try to theorize and explain it away with relativism. Maybe a ruthless superman who does what needs to be done to overcome his adversaries is what we really need today?
>>67714811
That's literally all superman is, Snyder is just being blunt
>>67714827
I disagree; I think that Winter Soldier is one of the best comic book movies of all time.
>>67714866
True. Today's Superman would save a cat from a tree and then get chastised for disrupting a squirrel's natural habitat
>birth movies death
>Devin fat cunt 50 year old manchild Faraci
Wow. /tv/ is dead.
>>67714910
It was average and only slightly less forgettable than all the other Marvel films.
>>67714811
If you read the article though it points out that Superman is supposed to represent the grace of God, not God himself or Jesus or some shit.
>>67714910
That movie was shit, still the best Marvel movie, but totally shit. Raimi Spider man and Snyderverse got nothing on it...but sheckles
>>67714952
Hi Zack.
>>67715052
WELL IF YOU SAY SO IT MUST BE TRUE
Cunt.
>>67715124
>REEEEEE LIKE THINGS THAT I LIKE
fuck off back to plebbit. Google+ is 18 and over only
>>67715118
he's right though
>>67715116
this
>>67713441
Otto Binder was a good superman writer and he didn't make superman a simple farm boy
>>67713000
hooooly fucking shit
>>67713000
But he wasn't well-executed. That's most of the fucking problem. Grimdark superman is one thing, but when that's compounded by being an erratic dipshit with no plausible character motivation to do any of the shit he does, you get BVS.
>>67712547
No. You can't mis-represent a fictional character. There is no objective Superman. There are only different interpretations, and Zack Snyder's interpretation is just another interpretation.
>>67715620
right. they cut a 6th of that film last second, but still correct. but we're talking about the character, which includes MoS
>>67715071
Indeed that's a good optimist take on Superman, but so far Snyder's view of Kal-El is that he is a divine presence that is evidently not a force for good in the world, and martyrdom can be his only gift. The fixation with death over good deeds is a common element in dogmatic and fundamentalist religions, something Snyder chastises and glorifies at the same time.
Man of Steel and Batman V Superman could offer interesting deconstructionist stories (with their parts pinched from Watchmen and Miracleman) but the clumsy scripting and cinematic grammar make these themes insincere, in addition to the fact that this is not just a tragic-tyranicall-elseworlds Superman, it is supposed to be the definitive cinematic central figure of the Justice League franchise. There isn't enough optimism there for that concept to float.
I was just suggesting with "Piss Christ" that Snyder's take is a nihilistic, anti-theistic one, yet it still relies on established religious iconography to labor the point. Then he goes a step further and literally douses the story with "peach tea".
Sorry if that doesn't make much sense, but essentially I think Snyder wants to make anti-religious movie about a tragic god, but it doesn't work because this is not how people largely interpret Superman, and it won't work if a colourful franchise is supposed to be launched of its grim back.
I still can't get over the fact that the one opportunity for Superman to speak his peaceful intentions to the world was ruined by explosions and jars of piss.
>>67715296
Give me an arc of Binder's. If it falls outside the span of 70s - 00s, odds are I'm not familiar with it.
>>67716358
>evidently not a force for good in the world, and martyrdom can be his only gift
stopped right there.
not at all. It's that he is a force for good but isn't perfect
>>67712547
It was a movie about Superman and other DC heroes in the Marvel universe.
>>67716358
Take it a level deeper. Humanity very much wants him to *be* a god figure. He doesn't think that's his role and neither did Jor-El.
If you'll forgive me a brief bout of pretentiousness, one might go so far as to try to make the case that Snyder, through all the ham-fisted imagery, is attempting to repackage in visual terms that the very environment conspires to make Clark into a god, despite all his intentions to be perceived as just a man. It is, after all, simply by virtue of being on earth that Supes(and other Kryptonians) are so godlike in the first place.
In short, the film-maker might not be identifying him as a god; he's just reminding us that that's the perception that Clark is struggling against.
>>67716668
So we're supposed to be the average person watching it play out?
Batman takes it too far, Lex is crazy, and Superman is god. If that was his intention, then i actually say BRAVO SNYDER unironically, being overt and pretentious to be actually subtle like that is actually smart
>>67716464
It's good that Clark isn't perfect. But the films have gone too far with assigning every tragedy to his fault. We get some shots of Superman being a "saviour", but the crux of the story is the despair that came to Earth along with him.
You shouldn't feel relief that he is dead at the end of a Superman movie.
And this Superman doesn't speak for himself to anyone. Jonathan, Jor-El, Zod, Lex even Lois.. everyone is telling him what he means and what he should do. The only decisions he makes are when to reluctantly kill.
>>67712547
it's an interesting take, but as far as BvS is concerned, Superman didn't really go anywhere as a character. he was just a goal/tool for Batman to get from point A to point B.
>>67716376
Brainiac
Super girl
Kandor
Lucy Lane
Bizarro (I think)
Legion of Superheroes
Silver age writers didn't do Arcs.
>>67716902
>And this Superman doesn't speak for himself to anyone. Jonathan, Jor-El, Zod, Lex even Lois.. everyone is telling him what he means and what he should do.
The movie is precisely about that. Nobody today cares about listen each other. We project our issues unto others and hate them for preconceived notions we've about them. The media, the politicians, the internet. We all do it.
Nobody wants to listen what Superman has to say, we just want to blame him for everything wrong in the world and twist his actions into reasons to hate him. The world isn't ready to accept someone like Superman nowadays. This isn't 1938.
>>67713233
>You don't just make a Superman movie and then a crossover with Batman only to say "oh, but this doesn't have to be the definitive superman"
Why not? Why not do something different with them?
Love it or hate it, I've seen more genuine discussions about this film than any Marvel film so far.
>>67716902
They haven't though. the only one you could argue they did assign as his fault was the battle in Metropolis where the people were mixed on it, like how people actually were with MoS and the action in it, some blaming it on Superman himself.
I think BvS was about being lost, being Superman is to filled with regret for his failures and Batman is so filled with rage for his that they both are not the characters we know at all because they are broken men
Superman does eventually take action into his own hands and sacrifice himself, causing the people to love him
Batman realizes the monster he became, when he see Superman say Martha and Lois run up to save him, at that moment I viewed him as realizing he became the guy with a gun
>>67717138
This. There is something about this film that keeps everyone talking and going back to the theater. It's interesting
>>67716940
Right in the heart of Silver Age Supes. Don't think I'm trying to be unkind here, but while a lot of the characters he introduced were great, Supes himself frequently ended up playing second-fiddle in a lot of those stories. That's not really Binder's fault, though. Your only real choice in those days was to keep Superman cosmic. I'd actually love to see a more off-planet arc in the movies, but I'm not sure how they'd spin that with the playing board they've set at present.
I have fond memories of those comics, My dad used to read them to me(oldfag here), I was just too young to have paid much heed to creators at that point.
>>67716668
I think you're right. I just lament that Snyder makes no attempt for Clark to publicly acknowledge that himself. I wanted so much for Superman to say that in congress. Just a simple "I am not God. I am strong but I was raised a man. If you'll allow me, I'd like to do whatever I can to make the world a better place." would suffice. But I suppose that detract from the misunderstandings-brawl that was the central premise. And Clark is buried before that could ever be said.
Also, Jor-El does say "he'll be a god to them" but the MoS Kyrpton stuff is whole other barrel of monkeys.
>>67717269
I think that's the point. I think Superman wants to make that effort, but most people don't want to. Fitch did, that's why she wouldn't bend over for Lex, because she didn't want to do that to Superman believing he has no reason to harm us. but no one tries to hear superman out again, Batman would rather kill him than hear him
>>67712547
>What Snyder is talking about, and what his movie ends up being about, is the concept of staying in your own lane - don’t get involved in the affairs of others because it’s always going to create unintended consequences, and usually bad ones. That’s an intrinsically nihilistic point of view, and it’s absolutely bizarre to me that it’s a point of view that Warner Bros allowed to be attached to Superman. It’s like making a Strawberry Shortcake movie that is all about diabetes.
well Snyder is planning to adapt one of the Ayn Rand novels so it kinda makes sense that he holds these views
>>67712547
Superman is a lame character, no matter how much you try to make him work
>>67717269
Superman didn't had time to speak for himself in the congress because in a way nobody really cared to listen to his words. Lex standing him for humanity took that chance of him. Humanity in this movie just want to crucify Superman for problems the world's problems.
You've Lex, Batman, the US, et all. Bunch of people projecting their own issues and the worlds issues on Superman and none of them really knows the guy. But they don't care. They treat their truth as the ultimate truth and do everything in their powers to punish Superman for it.
>>67717051
I don't disagree with that. (see >>67717269)
But it's why so much of the film's audience is disappointed. Because I don't think we really want to see Superman brought down to our level. The very idea of Superman (and I suppose the "God's grace" idea in the article) is that simple loftiness, that he is above the petty ugliness of selfishness, deceit and greed, and his presence inspires others to see things the same way.
BvS is a cynical movie because instead of earnestly making a story about this idea, it wants to inflict penance on MoS's Superman by having Batman, a more popular and identifiable character, kick the shit out of him.
>>67717269
Both Jonathan and Jor in MoS were wrong. The movie is about you making your own choices and standing your ground. Jor did it by going against his society and culture, Jonathan did it by not trusting the society and culture and Clark did it by going against his fathers' wishes and forging his own path.
>>67712794
But still wears a goofy costume and cape. Real world, yeah. Sure
>misrepresentation
>of a fictional character
I just
>>67717617
i didn't say he himself is realistic, i said he is more relatable in a world that is more realistic
>>67717570
>But it's why so much of the film's audience is disappointed. Because I don't think we really want to see Superman brought down to our level. The very idea of Superman (and I suppose the "God's grace" idea in the article) is that simple loftiness, that he is above the petty ugliness of selfishness, deceit and greed, and his presence inspires others to see things the same way.
But Superman wasn't brought down to our level. He rose above it and by doing it so he managed to make humankind rise above it too in various ways.
Sure, Superman never managed to say his piece because we didn't let him, but he still lead us by example and even with we condemning him he still sacrificed his life to save us.
Thanks to him Batman found his way and became a better hero, Wonder Woman became a hero again, Lex became... more unhiged but whatever. ETC.
>>67713000
He hath come to us!
>>67713655
This.
I feel these movies, besides just being boring and confusing, are too dark and lifeless to portray Superman as anything other than Dark and Lifeless. They genuinely suck and I hate that these are the movies I've waited so long to see, only to be gravely disappointed - twice. They really need (I hate to say this) a reboot, and a new director, before trying to ruin the entire franchise of the Justice League. And they will ruin it.
>>67717776
I find the movies very uplifting. I think they just don't bullshit around about the consequences. There's no easy way out.
haven't seen the flick, but did Lois interview Superman? after Man of Steel, it seems like a pretty good idea to do so he can explain his side to everyone.
>>67715003
This
>>67717585
>Clark did it by going against his fathers' wishes and forging his own path.
I like that idea, but we don't emerge with a competent Superman at the end of MoS. The whole thing's a tragedy that serves as the catalyst for BvS. On the one hand I admire the fact that they didn't shy away from the criticism, but on the other hand they didn't learn much from what they addressed, and so Superman is maligned even more.
There are some great ideas in these movies, but they're just not good at executing them particularly well.
Preconceived notions.
The film was great, one of the few worthwhile superhero movies along with Winter Soldier and MoS.
>>67713441
>What's compelling is bearing witness to how he overcomes the same problems we all face
>have regular people problems
>can shoot lasers through eyes
>literally almost cannot die
>compelling
>>67717837
They don't show it, but Bats sort of implies it at one point. He also provides a clue of how the cynical among us would interpret them - "puff pieces."
>>67712547
> I feel terrible for the youngest generation who has this cruel, selfish Superman.
what has he done that is selfish or cruel?
this is exactly >>67717051 , >>67717520 , and >>67717713 have been saying.
>>67718022
>literally almost cannot die
Superman can't be challenged physically. It has to be spiritually/mentally, and this is the best way to do it.
>>67718022
Nice cherry-picking.
>>67718083
you're gay
>>67718104
Thank you based Milo.
>>67718064
i never understood this meme. is it to show visual symbolism?
>>67718103
>imply that he has superpowers
>cherry picking
>Dcucks
>>67718104
you and your brothers make shit movies
>>67717975
Superman's competent in BvS. Well, at least as a hero. What fails him is the world.
In the whole movie you've Superman going around saving people. If this was any other movie he'd be regaled as a hero. But the world in this movie is more like our own and we as people simple can't accept someone like Superman. We just can't.
When Superman saves a cat, we blame him from not stopping a robbery in a neighborhood close.
Superman stops a warlord, we blame him for creating a power-vacuum and the ensuing turf war.
Superman stops a tornado, we blame him for the damages caused.
Superman does nothing, we blame him for not being there.
To us he's a devil, a threat, a bad influence, anything and everything. All because we can't accept him. We need to destroy him.
Society always turn against their heroes. We pray for them in time of need but afterwards we come to hate the image we created of them. How dare them be superior to us?
>>67717713
In a way Lex transitions from abused child to the traditional Lex during this film.
The heroes all rediscover how to be Heroes.
Lex goes from angry child to Supervillain.
If we see him again, and I'm guessing we will see him working with or trying to dupe Darkseid, I think we may see less of the wackiness and a more mature Lex.
The symbolic removal of his hair marking the transition?
He's only a true villain now he has been imprisoned.
>>67712547
Yes, just like in the MCU everyone has Spiderman's personality, everyone in the DCU is suddenly 50 shades of Bruce Wayne.
>>67718145
Care to read the whole paragraph back to us, junior, or is that "blog" too long to hold your attention?
>>67717975
Kal El is never Superman at all in MoS. He is forced to don the suit to fight Zod.
>>67718202
>we will see him working with or trying to dupe Darkseid
That never works out well
Superman is not supposed to be a tortured soul. Clark essentially acts on his ideals and his chief weakness is he has the blinders on when he acts with little time for reflection. Snyder's Superman is a brooding regretful fuck who somehow thinks he should answer to fucking Congress because Snyder's Clark is a dumb lying hick fudd farmer son who bummed off the good graces of blue collar America for over a decade.
And that in and of itself is stupid. The audience doesn't respect Clark as a result. Hes just a dumb idiot with too much power and no idea how to handle it. He can stop an out of control bullet train, but can't handle what people say about him after the fact.
>>67718188
He's got a firm grasp on what he's capable of, but he's still struggling against the whole god-like public perception. At this stage of the game, he's still lacking that "man of the people" relatability the old-school Supes fans all know and love.
>>67718240
If you think dealing with normal people problems when you have superpowers is """"" compelling"""""" then you truly are a Dcuck.
>>67718375
I think that the films' world wouldn't even accept THAT Superman. I dunno, here's crossing my fingers for the JL. I want to see how this world we deal with the notion of meta-humans.
>>67718344
Oh of course! But Lex, like all true psychopaths, will believe he is more intelligent than everyone in the universe.
>>67718361
Do YOU know how to deal with criticisms? Not even Jesus did, man.
>>67718361
That's pretty much it. That's what he's trying to find, I think. He hasn't yet crafted Superman's public persona. I think that's what we'll see more and more of as time rolls on.
>>67718361
>blahj blah not muh superman
>blah blah why not the way I want it?
>>67718421
And you really haven't grasped a single iota of what's being discussed here.
>>67718421
Honestly, kind of scared of what you think is compelling.
How would the Avengers fare in the world of MoS/BvS?
>>67714778
Did DC feel the need to go so dark because Marvel kinda stole all its characters? Also I feel like Daredevil is Marvel saying "Oh, you don't want those Batman characteristics? We'll take em! Yay no killing."
Superman would just be Captain America redux if done traditionally. When DC went first we got joyful Superman. So Marvel took over during the capeshit boom and now DC had to go a different direction?
Anyway, I feel like they don't really need to reboot anything. I would just like The Flash and Aquaman to be lighthearted and the JL to be a mix of Snyder and whatever cute thing they think of.
That'd be nice.
>>67718442
but everyone loves Superman now. and they'll love his super friends too.
>>67717713
Thematically, Superman was brought down to our level. He's marooned in a loathsome world where he can't possibly be trusted.
>he managed to make humankind rise above it too in various ways.
Like how? As an Senator Finch is the only civilian moved to open a dialogue about the situation, and Lex kills her for it.
Lois and Martha are the only ones with a voice that trust Superman, and that's because they're the only people that know who he is.
I don't know if we have seen Batman be a better hero yet, unless you mean abruptly turning his aggressions elsewhere. I guess in concept the formation of the JL is supposed to show that.
>he still lead us by example
We haven't really seen anything like that yet. As far as the Public's concerned, Doomsday was Superman just cleaning up another mess he cause, except more people survived, not including himself this time. I suppose the statue and the funeral differ in that the statue is like a preemptive gesture to a potentially wrathful god, whereas the state funeral is a confused sign of relief.
>>67713000
Thank you Trip Jesus
Winter Soldier, MoS, BvS are the only recent capeshit I can enjoy. Everything else from the MCU is shit, maybe Ironman/Thor kind of standout a bit, but the rest is shit.
Why is that?
>>67718694
>We haven't really seen anything like that yet. As far as the Public's concerned, Doomsday was Superman just cleaning up another mess he cause, except more people survived, not including himself this time. I suppose the statue and the funeral differ in that the statue is like a preemptive gesture to a potentially wrathful god, whereas the state funeral is a confused sign of relief.
People know that Luthor is to blame for Doomsday and people finally accepted Superman in his death.
>>67718647
I think they don't want to be seen copying everything Marvel is doing and go their own way. It's probable that we would have a lighter DCEU if they went first
>>67718501
We've had two movies and not only has he not crafted public Superman persona, his Clark Kent is just as stiff and addled with conflict. His core personality dynamic is entirely untested in this world.
>>67718145
>>67718103
are haters this blind? did you even read what he wrote cause Im not even a superman fan but I can appreciate the nuance snyder is trying to give the character, god forbid him for actually trying to give him a spiritual journey to grow as a character.
>>67718694
The plot itself was the silliest setup though. For starters, Superman can't just show up at a Congressional hearing. That would be the equivalent of John McCain demanding Putin to come before him in the chamber. Superman would have to answer directly to the President of the United States officially as the last son of Krypton. There is already a legal pretext for it, that being of extraterrestrial immigration.
The facts that he was not already contacted by the White House, by the United Nations, or by any world peace organization for his initial actions in saving the world and his continuing contributions over two years are in and of itself unrealistic and break the "dark realistic" narrative of the Snyderverse. If Snyder Supes works in media, why doesn't he use a smartphone or facebook or twitter? If Snyder Supes spent two years working at a newspaper, why can't he understand that most media is generally bullshit and most people at large tune out the vast majority of media except for the public narrative? If Snyder Supes thinks he has a likability issue, why doesn't he just learn to talk to the cameras and reach out to his supporters like the star sports athletes that he covers?
The answer is the vast majority of the movie's characters are strawmen and archetypes. Senator Finch is supposed to be strong honest independent woman fighting for small America, for example. The fat senator accepting candy bribes would be an important villain in a realistic take.
The fuck is going on with the trip codes
>>67718793
Was there a newspaper shot about the public reaction? I feel like there was but I can't remember what it said.
The Luthor thing is particularly abrupt. They really should have kept in that 45 second clip of him being arrested.
>>67718491
Not everybody is a quivering pussy at the whims of the hands of other people's opinions.
>>67712547
>starts with 'muh superman'
I read it all, but I wish I had stopped right there. People need to get over themselves and realize it's a character and that each writer / director will interpret him in a certain way. It's like they want all incarnations to be Christopher Reeve. He wasn't even the Superman we read in the comics, anyway...
>>67718491
Jesus didn't care actually and still did whatever he wanted until the jews killed him.
>>67718694
>I don't know if we have seen Batman be a better hero yet, unless you mean abruptly turning his aggressions elsewhere. I guess in concept the formation of the JL is supposed to show that.
Not that guy, but I take his graveside statement(a vow?) to indicate a return to the light. Heh . . . the Batman, back in the light.
>>67712547
Is there any scenes in this movie where Superman is actually smiling, in daylight and saving people or is Superman in constant night scenes being moody as fuck.
Genuine question. Did it show Superman and Metropolis as the bright happy side or was everythjng just as grim as Batman and Gotham.
>>67719114
Just wait until the Romans and the New Gods come for you, Nicole!
>>67719269
How is that some form of redemption? He wants to create an organization to fill the void Superman's death leaves behind. While ultimately it would solve the immediate issue of superhero-generated conflict on the planet, hes ultimately doing it because he got Supes killed. He fucked up by killing the planet's best anti-virus against aliens and now hes going to find replacements.
>>67719303
Download the camrip yourself and find out. Its watchable.
>>67719303
why the fuck was my name Nettie Holden
>>67719385
Would someone please post the webM of Batman pummeling Superman in the face?
>>67719430
I don't know, Leonard.
>>67719303
There is a montage of him doing good deeds, but it's presented as a burden he takes upon himself.
>>67719343
He also stopped killing.
>>67719385
I'm going with a friend in a few days to see it at the flicks. Was just curious and that'll piss me off if there isn't.
>>67719476
It isn't presented that way. It's presented as the world weary of him for being a hero.
>>67719303
There's some very striking daylight imagery, but I can't speak to the smiles. At this stage of the game, Clark is quite visibly troubled by the way people are idolizing him. He hasn't figured out how to break out of being seen as an object of worship. so he's doing his hero bit, still working on the inspiration.
This is all totally conjecture on my part, but I think these are very conscious decisions both on Snyder's and the actor's part. This is the real dilemma Clark's facing, and it's not yet been resolved.
>>67719473
what kind of name is franklin
>>67719547
Beats me, Raquel.
>>67719521
Pretty damn sure burden is implied too. He drags a giant cargo ship, a man made monstrosity, all alone across the arctic wasteland.
That's a pretty clear "I'm taking this burden of humanity upon myself" scene. I mean I liked it.
>>67719303
>Is there any scenes in this movie where Superman is actually smiling, in daylight and saving people or is Superman in constant night scenes being moody as fuck.
nope.
the Day of the Dead scene was hilarious. all the spics just reached out to Superman and they looked stoic or like zombies. and Superman's just standing there looking like "fuck this, I could be fucking Lois right now."
the Superman rescue montage looked cool, but it didn't really serve Superman's character right.
>>67719691
In that scene, he smiled to the person he delivered the girl in the burning building to.
>>67712794
Thats a lame excuse. There's a line to how far a character can be defined, Snyder crossed that line with Supes. Stripping him off his core value of character, the result is he presented us something that isn't Superman. This Superman can easily be substituted with other superhero and we wouldn't see the difference.
>>67719430
give my chess trophy back leo you cunt
>>67719787
can't remember seeing that. could have been a nice moment if Supes interacted with the people there, but instead Snyder just has Superman looking off to the distance. maybe using his super xray vision to take a peak at Jenny taking a shower.
>>67712547
>superman was written by two Jewish kids
Only one of them was Jewish. Into the trash this article goes.
>>67719569
oh shut up jesse no one wants u here
>>67719818
>Supes. Stripping him off his core value of character, the result is he presented us something that isn't Superman. This Superman can easily be substituted with other superhero and we wouldn't see the difference.
This is a big lie.
>>67719343
"I failed him in life. I will not fail him in his death."
It works on more than one level. By failing him in life, he could mean that he didn't reach out to him, let him benefit from his own extensive experience. Sure, their methods are going to be very different, but to think there's no lessons for Supes to learn from him is doing Bats a discourtesy.Sadly, Bats was too lost in his own darkness to be of any use to him. That could mean that by not failing him in his death, he's returning to the code that started his career, the same sort of code that stopped Superman from delivering his head to Luthor.
>>67719893
fk u wolowitz
I'll concede that the Snyder Superman movies are at least more entertaining to discuss and argue about than any of the Avengers movies.
>>67719691
Remember the scene with all the skulls from MoS?
Also, that scene illustrates what I'm talking about when I say he's struggling to not be seen as an object of worship.
>>67719911
He was simply giving the crowd a solemn encounter with a god. That or he didn't speak Mexican.
>In a post 9-11/War on Terror world, Warner Bros. has convinced people that Superman cannot exist.
>In a post 9-11/War on Terror world, Marvel has convinced people that Captain America not only can exist, but *should*. And that's all there is to it.
DC BTFO by a commenter, lmao
>>67720145
>>67719691
Also, during the saving civilians and interview montages, while people are saying he could be a god, a messiah figure, one of the guys says:
"Maybe he's not a god or infallible, just a guy trying to do the right thing."
He was the only one who saw Superman as a normal being.
>>67713000
>holy trinity
>jesus
>zack snyders jesus allegory of superman
>>67720029
Words are cheap and the Bat knows best of all. He judged Supes wrongly, but will he fix his attitude? Probably not.
>>67720277
>world
Uh, I think he meant USA.
>>67720326
On the nose.
>>67720277
>Warner Bros. has convinced people that Superman cannot exist.
But he can't.
>Marvel has convinced people that Captain America not only can exist, but *should*.
And he can't either.
Have some pride and some self respect, mystery commenter.
I'm off to bed. It's been great discussing this with you all.
(No, I'm not an Aussie.I'm a caped vigilante)
>>67712794
This Superman kills a guy in cold blood 5 seconds after appearing in the movie.
It's not Superman. It's a murderous alien who pretends to be a nice guy because his fake parents told him to.
>>67720585
Just because you're a cynical nihilist doesn't mean everyone else has to be, faggot
That's not Superman.
>>67720551
Fuck you walter, you owe me money you nigger
>>67712703
You're a real cunt Joanne.
>>67720779
>I'll just play pretend that the world is fine and then it will be fine, just like in my cartoons
>>67718022
How can you say this Supes isn't compelling?
I've seen BvS twice already and I can honestly tell you that I felt bad for him when he was getting beat down by Batman.
Seriously, dude had the worst couple of days ever in BvS. The only way things could have gotten any worse is if he found out Batman was cucking him with Lois Lane.
>>67720966
FUCK. YOU. GLENN REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>67721020
That's America for you
>>67721052
Id do that
>>67720727
He doesn't kill the guy. He says as much. Come on, Sherry.
>>67720727
>you see him push a guy away from lois and then jump to congress
Never said if he died at all
>>67720073
Dude! Remember that part where Ultron... ... .uh....umm...... ..I got nothing....
>>67721253
That fucking trailer was so GOOOOOD! Damn, i'll forever be mad at Age of Ultron.
I love even the Thor movies, but AoU... hurt my feelings.
>>67721052
Because his entire facade of a character can be summed up in
>Supes had a hard life
No, no Supes did not have a hard life. What he had was a bum emo tantrum which lasted a decade just because all he wanted to do was work dead end low paying jobs being an every man. Then when he finally becomes someone important, people talk bad about him and then he crawls back into Lois' pussy. And then when hes finally faced with a challenge which requires some fucking thinking power, he goes hurrdurr I'll just talk to these people who are mad at me for the past two years because I never bothered to talk to them. He has as much tragic appeal as a bullied popular high school girl who doesn't know how to deal with her emotions and wants to kill herself.
>>67721193
Dem 4" inch pumps mayne..
>>67721253
gonna be honest, I forgot Ultron was in the movie. Not even kidding, when i was asked about the plot, yesterday, i blanked all together.
>>67721052
At least he had some happy moments in MoS, I miss Zodd&Faroa.
>>67721350
>What he had was a bum emo tantrum which lasted a decade just because all he wanted to do was work dead end low paying jobs being an every man. Then when he finally becomes someone important, people talk bad about him and then he crawls back into Lois' pussy.
Fuck you, He doesn't owe the world anything.
Did Superman ever meet Jesus?
>>67721350
>these people who are mad at me for the past two years because I never bothered to talk to them
One of the points I dont understand in those movies is why such poweful beings like supes have to talk with anyone, supes saved humanity from being raped into extinction, if people dont like that they can go fuck themselves. What are they going to do against a god like being? Bitch on twitter?
Supes should be more like Scion from Worm before golden morning, saving lives but not wasting his time with humans, because humanity itself is full of dramatic vapid cunts.
>>67721916
He doesn't have to talk to anyone, he's wants to
>>67720727
>It's a murderous alien who pretends to be a nice guy because his fake parents told him to.
I tried giving it the benefit of the doubt, but Kevin Costner's character was an awful parent, whoever he was, and it really comes off like that.
>>67722131
I think Kevin Costner was a flawed human being trying his best to raise a fucking alien kid. I like the character. He's your typical Pa Kent full old folk wisdom that pertains to every aspect of life Superman might come into.
>after a hard day ofSuperman murdering everyone
>Oh no, Batman makes criminals scared, I won't stand for this
>If you don't stop, I'll murder you and rape your wife. Consider this mercy
>>67722240
>He's NOT your typical Pa Kent
Fix'd.
The U.S. literally defeated a supervillain in Saddam Hussein.
You know what happened? Fucking ISIS and half the world hates us.
How is what happened to Superman any different?
>>67722324
Carole, i'm going slap you face silly. Stop acting retarded on purpose. You bitch.
>>67722131
Pa Kent was pretty logical.
Notably with the bus drowning.
Maybe those kids should have died to keep Clark safe from the world.
If Clark wasn't around they would have died anyway.
And i've seen criticism of him in this film being ultra paranoid and conservative.
Because obv conservative values are instantly wrong.
And he found a boy, most likely an alien, and everyday Clark grows up with him, he is going to have a realistic fear that the government will come looking/snooping.
How is that unrealistic or unreasonable.
Don't get me started on those of you that get shitty about Pa Kent and the tornado.
Point of that scene just went right over your heads (and you weren't paying attention to the bus scene)
>>67722240
Yeah, telling your son to leave some kids to die so nobody finds out you have superpowers is not old folk wisdom.
Pa Costner was a psychopath, not flawed.
>>67722388
I liked MoS, and I get the point of the tornado scene, but it as flawed as fuck and could have been done a lot better. It probably is the weakest part of the film.
>>67722399
and people finding out he has superpowers puts his life at risk, let alone he can't, if he chooses to, just live a simple boring human life.
Fuck you.
>>67722399
He didn't wanted to Clark, his son, to expose himself to danger and to others worried about his safety. He even said he wasn't sure about what he said. He was conflicted like any parent would.
>>67722388
>Don't get me started on those of you that get shitty about Pa Kent and the tornado.
Please do. I wouldn't miss your olympic mental gymnastics for anything.
>>67722458
I'm open to maybe the message being clearer, or somehow contriving a way that Pa Kent was in the tornados path without it seeming suicidal.
>>67722399
he said maybe, because ultimately it was Clark's choice. Pa just wanted him to understand that his actions have consequences
>>67722538
Indeed.
>>67720727
This Superman is a guy who goes apeshit and takes over the world as it's dictator when Lois gets killed by the Joker.
You're telling me some nigger who puts a gun to her head and is about to pull the trigger won't get his shit stomped?
>>67722470
>>67722477
>it doesn't matter what you can do, indestructible child, only what you can do to avoid helping anyone in need
>>67722620
So let Clark live a life constantly on the run, cant mingle with the common folk. Can't be "normal".
Why should he have that thrust upon him if he doesn't wish it. OR have the guilt hang over him for not rescuing and being a "hero" to everyone in need.
>>67722399
Not the guy you were replying to but desu if the government had found out about Clark while he was still a little kid they would have taken him away and put him through some literal weapon X level shit.
Of this there is no doubt. Either that or Clark would have had to kill them all to keep them from taking him. It's not like he could have just flown away at that point since he hadn't learned how yet.
Regardless, if the Gov had found out shit would have gotten messy.
>>67722863
Do you think they would nuke Smallville to kill Clark?
>>67723013
No, but they would Suicide Squad the shit out of him.
>>67716668
>He doesn't think that's his role and neither did Jor-El.
Did you watch MoS? Jor-El gives an impassioned twenty minute speech about how Supes will guide and shape humanity. It's in the trailer for fucks sakes.
>>67723077
Yeah, that makes more sense. They would probably make a whole bunch of Kryptonite weapons too.
>>67723013
It wouldn't be out of the question if he had just taken out an entire Army division.
I can tell you for a fact that if Superman existed IRL the U.S. would be harvesting every last ounce of Kryponite on Earth just in case they would ever need it.
BvS raises the question of are any of us truly free if we are alive only if Superman allows it? I can tell you from the perspective of the U.S. the answer would be "no" we are not free because there is no mutually assured destruction with Superman.
If Supes existed IRL the U.S. would have a major problem with it no matter how much "good" he ever did in the world.
>>67722824
>>67722863
The article in the OP is pretty much on point about this.
Superman needs to be a source of inspiration and wonder because that's the entire point of the character, and it's his father the one who raises him in a way that allows him to take on that role because that's the right thing to do. That's why his family is important; the most traditional of americans create the greatest champion of justice just by giving a superhuman their own values.
All this shit about muh gubmint and drowning horses is pointless and psychologically crippling. Pa Costner would've been charged with child abuse for that shit.
>>67713485
>The Superman everyone loves is unrelatable as fuck
Only if you're a liberal.
>>67721219
>>67721247
Not him but I don't see any way a man could survive that much rapid acceleration hitting him and then throwing him through a wall.
Where does he say that the man lived?
>>67723508
So you want perfect parents and perfect Superman?
>>67723663
When he talks to Lois.
>>67723726
They are not perfect, just not complete idiots.
>>67723767
misread that as "talked to lolis"
>>67723951
why is he so perfect?
>>67723799
>>67722513
>>67722399
>>67722131
Im beggining to think all these posters dont have children otherwise you would totally understand Pa Kent's logic maybe one day if ( and thats a big IF ) you ever have kids you understand you would do anything to keep your child safe
plus is not like Pa kent told clark to f the world, he just told him to take him time to ultimately make the right choice.
>>67723508
>>67723353
fucking this, no matter how good supes would be, The U.S. , Russia and China would be all over supes shit.
>>67723799
>>67723508
You're a fucking retard.
Man or Steel was his origin story, where he was learning and BECOMING Superman.
Having him blatantly flying to the rescue of kids during a natural disaster would've revealed his inhuman nature. The movie is about the idea of fate and whether he was destined to be Superman. Ever heard the line "with great power comes great responsibility", it's a fucking basic principle of super-hero's. Pa Kent didn't want his son to have such a huge responsibility on his shoulders for the rest of his life.
>>67724207
>Ever heard the line "with great power comes great responsibility", it's a fucking basic principle of super-hero's. Pa Kent didn't want his son to have such a huge responsibility on his shoulders for the rest of his life.
fucking this. Perfect post Teri
>>67722388
I loveD MoS but the tornado scene is indefensible.
I understand the message about not revealing his powers in front of other people but they should have had him hanging from a cliff or a bridge or something where Clark would have had to do something overly fantastic to save him.
Not have him be able to run 20-30 feet and drag him away from the car. The movie was great but that one scene is fucking lame the way they handled it.
>>67724405
Thats only one of the messages, the second is does he deserve to be rescued? Is it fate that this tornado was to kill him.
(Not wording this too well, hope you get the gist of what I mean)
>>67724207
I never said he should've literally told him SAVE THEM ALL IMPERMUTABLE YOUNGLING because he never does.
The reason Superman, the real Superman, choices to become a hero is because the values his parents, especially his father, teach him make him take that decision on his own.
MoS does this because he can, I guess? He has no option maybe? I have no idea, both movies are written like shit.
>>67724405
What's wrong just using a heart attack like in the comics?
>>67724447
pls b trollin
>>67724447
>Does he deserve to be rescued.
>wut?... I'm not getting that at all. Was Dad a secret rapist or something?
>>67724405
>tornado scene is indefensible
>literally defended right here
>>67724207
>not being able to run 20-30 feet
Maybe you don't remember the scene, but the Tornado was LITERALLY right on top of him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSLXz8ReSe0
>>67712547
Snyder's a Hack.
A HACK.
>>67722605
>This Superman is a guy who goes apeshit and takes over the world as it's dictator when Lois gets killed by the Joker.
Oh yeah, what a perfect version of Superman for the big DCEU that's supposed to last just as long as MCU.
Exactly what the average moviegoers expected from Superman.
>>67724538
>>67724544
deserved perhaps wrong word.
More emphasis on destined/fated/supposed to die.
People die Clark, everyone has a time to go, maybe you don't have a right to choose, perhaps you should let fate run its course.could also insert some shit about cheating the reaper and you get final destination level antics
>>67721731
He is the reason why bad aliens came to earth and almost killed everyone.
>>67724649
>Exactly what the average moviegoers expected from Superman
Who cares what they expect?
>>67712547
>Devin Faraci
"no"
>>67724549
It's a terrible scene.
Nobody thinks Usain Bolt has superpowers. He could have run that fast and saved his dad.
>>67724841
That's called hindsight bias you retard. Clark's dad went in the first place because he didn't want to risk it. Saying after the fact that Clark could have done it discretely isn't a criticism.
>>67724841
But Usain Bolt running with someone on his back and surviving being sucked up by a tornado would cause people to think he might have superpowers.
how the fuck was this scene that hard to understand? Pa Kent literally explained what it was about right before it happened.
>>67724664
>People die Clark, everyone has a time to go, maybe you don't have a right to choose, perhaps you should let fate run its course.
That'sway off the point.
Again, in the comic the lesson is given better because Clark can't do anything about his dad getting a heart attack.
In MoS he could run into the tornado, rescue psychodad, come back, and kick the fucking dog into the tornadoand then quip.
>>67712868
i'm thinking that with all the bad press, they'll probable make a "movie universe" vs. "more traditional/faithful/innocent universe" movie
and then stick with the new ones
you can't say there isn't a long comic book retcon tradition so...
>>67724932
>in the comic the lesson is given better
'Every action has consequences, even the good ones' is a worse lesson that 'You cant save everyone.'
And you base that on what comrade? Because it was written first in your funny books?
>>67724932
that is an interesting point though, but may it have watered it down.
Heart attack, Clark can't cure medical ailments.
But I think it would seem watered down for the casual masses.
>>67712547
>Devin Faraci
Into the trash it goes.
>>67724649
>>This Superman is a guy who goes apeshit and takes over the world as it's dictator when Lois gets killed by the Joker.
>he doesn't know about Injustice
Very popular series, your average comic book movie watcher will know about it.
>>67724917
>>67724927
1. He was close enough to slog it normally.
2. Nobody would have questioned it if he walked his dad back while all the cars were flying away.
3. Its fucking Kansas so they would have called it an act of God and move on.
Topkek Dad was a negative nancy moron who spent most of his time raising Clark to be a nobody who would use his powers fo rnothing. His greatest ambition for his son was to inherit the farm. While theres nothing particularly wrong with this idea in principle, he was so driven by his fears and his skepticism of humankind that he died torturing his own son.
It was excusable in its own movie, but then it piled on in BvS. So out of two movies, what character building there is points to an insanely powerful demigod who was never raised right, who doesn't know how to talk to people, who can't understand Western society after two years working in public media, and who needs a TV special report to buy a clue on the latest happening.
>>67725004
>'Every action has consequences, even the good ones' is a worse lesson that 'You cant save everyone.'
What are you on, retard?
Both are lessons given Clark learns, the later is to give some humility to his character.
>>67725164
>he was so driven by his fears and his skepticism of humankind
Which he was right about. If Superman appeared in our world tomorrow nothing would ever be the same. I find it pretty amazing that the shitposters on this board really have a hard time wrapping their head around why Jonathan Kent placed higher value on the secret of his son than individual human lives.
>>67725273
He wasn't right. The low and middle class embraced Superman as the ultimate 911 solution at worst and a savior figure at best. The media and the politicians attacked him because that generated publicity and attention. If the body politik really meant take down Supes, they would have had no problems authorizing Kryptobullets or working with Facebook Lex to fund secret black ops to test anti-Supes armaments and give them to the US military.
>>67722131
That's because Pa Kent in this universe is actually a kryptonian spy sent in to pose as a hero and raise superman.
You think it was a coincidence that the kents found supes. Nope
He raised duperman to be a murderous cunt of an alien hero who will make it easier for the oncoming invasion. Superman and humanity would be at odds, making it more convincing for Kal to join Zod. At leas that was the plan.
Originally, he was going to "die" in the tornado and leave, joining Zod's ranks after he terraformed earth and killed the humans, then further convince kal el to join them
But what happened instead was this. He faked his tornado death, hid in the fucking arctic, and waited. But Zod's plans didn't exactly go right. So Pa kent kept hiding in isolation form superman who could would never find him
Except he revealed his location in that "dream sequence" in BvS. Yea that wasn't a dream. There's been clear documented evidence in the comics of kryptonians with some level of mind probing/manipulation power.
All just further suggestion to confuse superman and turn him against humanity, so one day he will convince his invincible son to join his secret invincible mentor and take over.
Zack Snyder got you guys good this time
>>67714872
Not really. The Jesus in parisons didnt really exist until the 90's. He's closer to Moses.
>>67725507
thematically he was moses in MoS, "he will lead people to greatness and give them something to strive for"
>>67725570
And then he made Christ poses and stood by Christ pictures constantly.
>>67712547
Superman was fine
Fucking retarded marvel cucks every God damn fucking time
>>67725164
100% against the tornado scene. But on the other hand his Dad was right about everything he ever told his son.....everything.
J
>>67718064
>cinematography automatically defeats criticism of anything else in the movie
I don't understand
>>67725777
"The people" do not hate Supes. Most of mankind does not hate Supes. The media is constantly forcing an anti-Supes narrative. All the anti-Supes protesters were anti-immigration rightwingers. Its quite laughable that there were never counter demonstrations or public shows of support for Supes in the movie by "the people" until after his death because Snyder needed to paint Supes as a tragic sacrificial lamb.
Lex, corporate America, the top 1%, meddled with the nation's affairs and manipulated world events to kill a hero of the poor and the needy because he wanted a new thrill in his safe comfy life. His dad didn't warn him about that. His dad warned him not to trust people, so he spent the next ten years living among regular people to see if his dad was right.
He learned his dad was wrong, and that the people were worth saving.
>>67725756
Kek
>>67725777
im not, because they weren't able to get the teenage actor for this scene. he's 17 there
>>67724712
.and he SHOULD feEl some responsibility for that.
Superman has always been emo when people die.
Hell Superman had nightmares for days after he executed Zod and company even though they had just killed every living soul on Superboys Earth and scorched the surface of the planet to where it looked like the surface of the moon.
Superman is emo. That's his truest biggest weakness and has been for decades.
>>67726045
can you please explain that meme, why do people post it?
>>67726183
Having PTSD doesn't make a person emo.
>>67726195
that version there is the shitpost version of the kino meme. The original is meant to make it look like stills from a classic. That version is just random picture that are supposed to look stupid. It's a satire of a shitpost.
>>67725164
>was never raised right
liberals everyone
>>67726321
He was banned from knocking over his bullies, banned from sports, and shamed for his special abilities constantly. He didn't learn to stand up for himself until he exiled himself into homelessness. Was he even allowed to use farm tools or help his dad repair the car?
