Going ONLY on what we've seen in the movies so far, who is the most powerful force user, and what feats prove this?
I fucking hate the character, but I'm probably gonna go for Yoda. He was old and weak as heel in the original trilogy but in the prequels he absorbed Sheev's lightning blast and shot it back at him.
Yoda is the best force user. Not the best at lightsabers though
>>64575311
>power level bullshit
That's not how the force works.
>hates OT yoda
Never mind, you're an idiot without a single valid opinion on Star Wars.
>>64575311
Yoda was level 20. Sheev was level 18.
OT Yoda was based. Have you watched Empire?
In the prequels he was a bit incompetent IMO. Didn't predict Sheev, didn't protect the younglings, didn't predict Anakin breaking the code, etc.
>>64575418
No, Sheev had a higher power level
Vader. Sure yoda was able to stop sith lightning and could lift heavy things, but vader was able to force choke someone through the tv screen without so much as to even lift his hand.
But for a serious answer, Rey. No training whatsoever. Never used the force before. She somehow manages to have a stronger force pull than Kylo and takes the saber from him.
>>64575383
>That's not how the force works.
Yes it is you mary sue loving 'hurr the force did it is good narrative' piece of shit.
>>64575471
>She somehow manages to have a stronger force pull than Kylo and takes the saber from him.
No. Why would it stay in place for any time then?
Either Kylo was too unfocused to pull it at the time or it was an excalibur moment.
>>64575471
Maybe the force gets stronger with each generation in Luke's family?
>>64575471
HOW THE FUCK DOES IT EVEN COME TO HER
SHE'S NOT EVEN PAYING ATTENTION TO IT
THIS ISNT FUCKING HARRY POTTER
GODDAMNIT
Mace Dindu was the best saber duelist and Yoda was probably the most knowledgeable about the force and how to use it.
>>64575529
It's why the whole thing with Rey is horse shit.
First of all, both of them are standing in the same direction trying to pull the lightsaber and somehow it doesnt budge at all, despite 2 force pulls.
Second, she doesn't know jack shit about the force and doesn't even fucking remember its a thing until shes saber clashed with Kylo when he brings it up again.
So yeah, I guess if we are going by the movies then Rey is the more powerful force user because she can out force someone trained by luke and snoke without every having used the force before. DOnt get me wrong, im not happy about it either. Im just going by OP rules.
>>64575499
Easy there, all I said is that power level shit is not how the force works. I didn't say anything about Rey or TFA. I didn't say anything about what makes a good narrative. You boogeyman paranoid fuck.
These characters don't have set levels they always operate at, Luke can beat Vader in RotJ without being a stronger force user than he is. Power level talk directly implies this stupid math of (years training)(force multiplyer)=power level. If it doesn't, who cares about power levels if they can fluctuate depending on circumstances?
>>64575633
>who cares about power levels if they can fluctuate depending on circumstances?
being able to fluctuate doesn't mean they magically don't exist. yoda losing a fight with some random padawan would be retarded no matter how many plot fairies decided to awaken their force
>>64575630
>both of them are standing in the same direction trying to pull the lightsaber and somehow it doesnt budge at all, despite 2 force pulls.
How do you know she's pulling it when it's not moving? How do you know Kylo is being succesful on his own plus or minus Rey's pull? You seem to be filling in a lot of details on your own there.
> she doesn't know jack shit about the force
She's been shown telekinesis, but this entire final sequence is more about letting the force win for you than Rey being such a great fighter anyway.
>doesn't even fucking remember its a thing until shes saber clashed with Kylo when he brings it up again.
Yeah she totally forgot about that mind trick she just did or all the shit she's seen Kylo do or all the stories she heard about Luke and the jedi. She isn't just remembering the force, she's remembering what Maz said to her. I swear some people are so fucking stupid or willfully ignoring obvious shit.
And to top it all off you're treating Kylo Ren like this badass dark side user when his entire character is poser with a strong front.
>>64575311
>the power to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the force
the only one that ever demonstrated this was sheev by force manipulating the entire galaxy to give him absolute power and by completely blinding the entire jedi order
>>64575767
>all of this grasping
We know Kylo is a good force user, even if he may be shit at fighting he's got the mental part down.
There is no fucking reason for her to whimsically be getting a saber he's specifically force drawing for, then acting all surprised like "oh whoops, didn't even know I had it in me."
Fuck, that whole fucking scene is infuriating. Fucking harry potter bullshit.
>>64575712
Yeah but Yoda could lose to a padawan in a given context. See if power levels are still dependent on context than who needs to argue about them?
Dooku beats Obi-Wan
Anakin beats Dooku
Obi-Wan beats Anakin
Where is the utility in power levels?
>>64575838
you ability to lift different weights changes slightly over time. some days your muscles just aren't in as good of shape as another day. are you so retarded you're going to pretend physical strength doesn't exist?
those guys are all powerful force users. the titans beating the panthers is a thing that could happen occasionally. the local high school beating the titans is not. you're just such a dipshit that you pretend the only way having different levels of ability matter is if they're eternally unchanging.
>>64575838
Anakin is winning the fight against Obi-Wan most of the way and the only reason Obi Wan holds out is due to having trained Anakin, fighting similarly, and knowing how to defend himself against him.
He catches him in a moment of young rash boneheaded idiocy that spells his loss.
>>64575830
>all this grasping
See how easy it is to type that and how little it changes anything? You don't get to right off points and arguments with greentext and pretend they aren't there.
>We know Kylo is a good force user
In certain contexts. Kylo is great when leading successful missions, intimidating officer assholes, or dealing with someone like Finn.
You know when he's not a badass? When he fails at mind reading Rey and kills his dad. I wonder if all that obvious set up means anything about Kylo Ren's ability with the force.
>then acting all surprised like "oh whoops, didn't even know I had it in me
Why the fuck wouldn't she be surprised? It's the first time she moves shit with her mind, that's gonna give you pause for a second.
>Fucking harry potter bullshit.
Fucking arthurian legend bullshit you mean. The force is literally magic you dumb fuck.
>>64575767
>Kylo reaches for the saber attempting to pull it. Nothing happens.
Did he just forget probably one of the simplest force related abilities all of a sudden? Did getting shot suddenly stop him from being able to use the force?
Also notice how he still tried to pull it to him when it suddenly moved, flying by him and straight to Rey. Sure, maybe she wasnt pulling it the whole time he was, but he was trying the entire time, showing Rey's pull beat Kylo's.
>Letting the force win for you
So instead of Rey being a Mary Sue, the reasoning behind her winning is that the light side of the force won it for her? How come Yoda lost to Sheev then if the good force users get that kind of convenience?
And for your last point, Kylo has her on the fucking losing side of the fight, he brings up the force and shes just like "oh yeah, the force" and closes her eyes for a minute while Kylo watches, then she suddenly is able to defeat Kylo thanks to...hard thinking.
Im not saying Kylo is badass, Im saying hes trained with Luke, the last fucking Jedi and son of the most powerful force user, and Snoke, an evil dark side user. He can stop a blaster shot mid-air at full speed and read minds. Rey has done nothing and manages to one-up him at dueling, resisting his telepathy, and force pulling.
I swear, you Rey-fu faggots will do anything to justify how poorly written Rey is.
>>64576022
>Fucking arthurian legend bullshit
>it's older so it's better
it's still fucking dumb.
>>64575999
So the context outweighs power levels?
>>64575941
>CONTEXT NEVER EXISTS REEEEEE
Autism at its finest
>>64576022
>Force literally magic that does what it wants and lightsabers have masters
Dropped, you're a fruitcake
fuck off to Harry Potter
>I read about a spell once, here let me try this neat trick out for myself!
lmfao
>>64576062
>hates the classic hero tale part of star wars
So you don't like Star Wars, shit anon that's fine it isn't for everyone. Sometimes things you don't like aren't flaws in a movie, they're just things you don't like.
>>64576061
The worst thing about "hurr force did it" is that it completely trivializes the struggle of the characters. They've turned the Force into this malevolent supernatural entity that simply uses people as its playthings. If it wanted to, it could completely destroy the dark side, but it's more fun this way.
Fucking. Retarded.
>>64576063
It's pretty clear what the "context" is and we see it. Anakin tries to quintuple flip over him like a dumbass.
>>64576022
The more Reyfags defend her, the worse she becomes.
>>64576022
>Why the fuck wouldn't she be surprised? It's the first time
We're all surprised, and I'm even more surprised at how many people try to rationalize it
>>64576063
>>CONTEXT NEVER EXISTS REEEEEE
Too retarded to even come up with a coherent troll response huh? Context exists but suddenly going from never having used the force to being stronger in the force than some guy that just threw you 30 feet into a tree over the course of a day is totally out of line with established variance. She's a mary sue.
>>64576120
more like
>hates retconned bullshit
just because Star Wars takes inspiration from other things doesn't mean it has to be lifted whole cloth. Lightsabers were never shown to have wills of their own, but now they do, because "muh space magic".
It's fucking stupid, it will ALWAYS be stupid, and you're stupid for liking it. End of.
>>64576092
>Force literally magic
Watch Empire again, are you implying it isn't magic?
>that does what it wants
It partially controls your actions but it also obeys your commands.
>lightsabers have masters
I never said the lightsaber is making these things happen, the force is.
Please spout 'harry potter' some more you fuck, really shows how much you know about Star Wars.
>>64576155
This.
Based on feats alone?
Yoda. He lifted the X Wing out of the swamp. Nobody else lifted anything as heavy with the Force. I'm assuming that this makes him the most powerful based on what we've seen because I am assuming it takes more force or to be more powerful in the force to lift heavier things - Luke could lift his lightsaber with the force but not the X Wing.
After that, it gets sketchy.
The Emperor is obviously better than Vader is obviously better than Luke.
Obi Wan is better than Luke.
>>64576216
>Nobody else lifted anything as heavy with the Force
In the prequels yoda and dooku are throwing giant statues or something at each other
>>64576210
It isn't magic. It is an energy that surrounds and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together. It's what gives a Jedi its power. Life creates it and makes it grow.
That's not the same as magic because magic is supernatural where as in universe, the force is very natural.
>>64575460
Sheev had UNLIMITED POWAAAAA
>>64576022
>Fucking arthurian legend bullshit you mean.
Prophecy/destiny/fate/chosen one shit is so annoying in star wars
Like I get alluding to old literature is cool, but that stuff just makes the movie worse. Everything is predetermined and is going to go a certain way, it's not characters deciding the future for themselves.
Can you imagine the OT if yoda or obi wan told luke he was destined to achieve his purpose? Wow what a relief. For a moment there I thought he could fail and everything could go to shit forever, I'll call it tension, or suspense in short moments. That would be stressful if they put it in a movie.
>>64576277
So: Yoda lifted an X Wing and heavyvstatues. Dooku lifted only heavy statues.
Based on feats alone, Yoda would be the strongest.
These questions are always meaningless because there are no good answers.
>>64576210
It isn't """""just""""" inexplicable magic. It's a power that pervades life that needs to be understood and harnessed.
I'll spout "harry potter" because that's exactly what you're implying. Like if you're force sensitive you can meander along and pick up cool trix and spells along the way and like that fucking saber (to go along with your dumbass excalibur analogy) "chose" Rey over Kylo because it "belongs" to her.
You're trivializing everything about Star Wars, fuck you, the force isn't some whimsical deus ex machina.
>>64575311
It's Anakin. They repeatedly say he's the strongest and the chosen one. He got cucked hard by his suit though
>>64576127
I'm not defending shit, she's a mary sue and the most boring main character in the movie. I'm correcting anon on how a scene happened. Her being better than Kylo naturally or the force picking her doesn't change anything about if she earned that victory or not.
I get annoyed when anons go to the point of criticizing her being surprised the lightsaber flew to her. That's just looking for shit to bitch about.
>>64576155
I'm not rationalizing it after the fact, the movie presents all this as it unfolds. Nice non-argument though faggot.
>>64576188
>Lightsabers were never shown to have wills of their own
They still don't, no one is saying the lightsaber has this sentient personality. I'm just saying the force was at play.
>End of.
Hello reddit!
Revan and it's not even Fucking close.
>>64576361
>the force isn't some whimsical deus ex machina
that's exactly what you've been claiming it is you tard
>>64576127
Pretty much. Maybe, MAYBE the next movie will shed some light on why shes as strong as she is or why she seems to be able to use the force so naturally, but from what we were shown as of now, she is a poorly written character whos greatest power is having the writers on her side equipping her with the tools to not only overcome any obstacle she faces, but also trump experienced people in their respective fields.
But hey, at least shes cute and waifu material right? That makes her completely shit character worth defending I guess.
>>64576398
The fuck are you on about?
>>64576376
No they don't. They say he has the most midichlorians and they say he's the chosen one.
Never is anything definitive stated about his strength. Obviously midichlorian count doesn't count for everything, else he would have beaten Obi Wan.
>>64576392
>the force was at play
and that's all you need, i guess.
fuck you, and everyone who defends the trivialization of Star Wars into completely mindless dreck
>>64576216
>Nobody else lifted anything as heavy with the Force. I'm assuming that this makes him the most powerful based on what we've seen because I am assuming it takes more force or to be more powerful in the force to lift heavier things - Luke could lift his lightsaber with the force but not the X Wing.
There is no more or less force, just the force.
The reason yoda can lift the x-wingis he knows it is light. The only thing that stops luke from lifting the x-wing is he knows it is heavy.
Who the fuck wrote that shit, it's great.
>>64575767
>I swear, some people are so fucking stupid or willfully ignoring obvious shit
You're kidding, right? That is exactly 100% what you are doing in order to defend your waifu
>>64576455
The actual choices/skill in lightsaber fighting affect the outcome unlike some idiots in this thread might claim. Anakin made a bad choice and lost because of it.
>>64576433
I disagree with this. She's a savant.
Remember the movie Good Will Hunting? How Matt Damon's character was a genius, better than any graduate student or even the professor who had won a fields medal? At one point, they talk about a paper and the prof says something like "oh you used maclaurin here" and Matt's character says "I don't know what it's called".
She's like Will Hunting.
She's one of those people who as soon as you let her know she has a skill, she can use and master it immediately. Like Ender in Enders Game, like chess prodigies who beat Grand Masters when they're children, and like people like Terrence Tao who enter college at age 11.
>>64576216
Obiwan is getting his ass handed to him in his honorable duel with Grievous - note that Grievous commands his forces to hold their fire so it can be a fair fight - so Obiwan shoots him the chest with an assault rifle. Then he says guns are bad.
Obiwan is a really nuanced character.
>>64576303
>luminous beings are we, not this crude matter
Don't be obtuse.
>>64576361
Are you done yet? You're adding nothing new and just keep crying "harry potter! harry potter!" Get a new line or fuck off.
I'm sorry the obvious sword in the stone imagery went over your head. I'm sorry you think excalibur is Harry Potter shit. That you even think I'm completely making it up makes me wonder if you even watch movies and can identify symbols and visual references like that.
You're making the force this mundane thing you go to jedi school to practice lightsabers everyday for. The force isn't a deus ex machina, that you think that's how TFA ends shows how little you understand the movie or the words you spew out.
Sheev no doubt
>>64576423
Not at all, consider critical thinking
it isn't there for your convenience
>>64575311
sheev. fucker picks up 3 senate pods at once effortlessly and throws them at yoda who can barely stop and throw one back, and he's doing this while laughing his ass off
>>64576361
I hate how the movie is called the force awakens, yet we never find out what the means or if it actually happened. It's a "who is the phantom menace?" question.
We also learn nothing new about the force, in fact it's a regression. I feel bad for young audiences watching their first star wars movie. Instead of the force being a statement about the power of belief, it's just convenient magic tricks.
>>64576553
>She's like Will Hunting.
She's like good will hunting if Will just learned about math the previous day. Math prodigies that are smarter than professors are an actual thing that exists in the universe the movie is set in (reality). Force prodigies as retardedly op as rey were never shown to exist until now.
>>64575311
It's Vader or Palpatine. I say Palpatine because when Vader defeated him I really think that was more a brute force/ Love of his son move more so than knowledge of Jedi/Sith arts, Hell may even had something to do with a large part of him being artificial.
>>64576562
>I'm sorry the obvious sword in the stone imagery went over your head
Pretty sure it didn't. Audible fucking groan. It's a saber, not a sentient entity.
>muh symbols
How is that a defense for fucking with the nature of the SW universe? Sabers don't have feelings or masters, and the Force isn't a collection of magic tricks.
TFA doesn't even fucking know what it is because on one hand it rehashes everything we already know about the OT and on the other it contradicts it in the most annoying ways possible.
>>64576485
I don't buy this honestly. I'm sure Luke could lift the X Wing after his training even knowing it was heavy.
I'm pretty sure some people are stronger in the force than others. In fact, this is often stated and shown.
>>64576527
You sure? As far as I remember, the ability to destroy a planet is nothing compared to the power of the force, and the ability to wield a light saber isn't anything compared to the ability to destroy a planet, so...
>>64576489
I'm glad you included anything I'm ignoring in your post and just simply said I am. This isn't twitter, the character limit is a little longer here.
I'm glad you go to the waifu card.
>person disagrees with you
>they must be a hardcore loyalist to some idea/character/website
>now that i've said that I don't have to argue anymore
Don't you have a capeshit thread to spam?
>>64576483
How fucking retarded can you be to think that taking the force back to a place of belief after the prequels is turning it into mindless dreck. What part of the prequel version of the force wasn't mindless dreck and how does how TFA present the force contradict with the OT in anyway?
>>64576649
>Force prodigies as retardedly op as rey were never shown to exist until now.
There's a first time for everythingHow do you like them apples?
>>64576690
>the ability to destroy a planet is nothing compared to the power of the force
well that seems pretty false from everything we've seen. maybe you should stop being retardedly literal
>>64576683
>Audible fucking groan.
>Sabers don't have feelings or masters, and the Force isn't a collection of magic tricks.
Yes, exactly. Lightsabers don't have a will, but the force does.
>>64576708
Yes. So rey is a mary sue force prodigy and apparently the most powerful force user in the universe. Glad we could settle this.
>>64576769
The force does not have a will you idiot
You will the force, jesus christ
"Let the force use you, Luke"
remember that line? I don't
>>64576562
Your point? Still not magic. It requires no gestures, no rituals, no spells, no magic words, and doesn't require supernatural anything. It's a completely natural phenomenon in the SW universe. Look up the definition of magic and you'll see its not magic.
>>64576649
Yes. Like Ender and chess prodigies or Daniel Tammet.
I honestly don't have a problem with Rey doing the things she did with the force precisely because people like that exist IRL.
It isn't like she did anything complex or something that had to be specifically learned (like lightnjng) - she was able to use the simple powers very effectively and quickly. She reminds me of someone like Gauss, who would correct his father's accounting ledgers at age 3. Or Ramanujan.
>>64576700
>muh BULEEEAAAAVVVVEEEE
because even if what you say is true, the only reason it doesn't suck is because luke has to overcome significant character flaws to allow him to harness the force. when the main character uses the force like it's nothing, you FEEL nothing. it isn't exciting, or satisfying to see. it's "oh i wonder what AMAAAAAAZING thing she's going to do next". which is fucking boring.
rey made the force fucking boring. THAT'S why it's mindless dreck.
kill yourself.
>>64576810
He said you should let the force guide you. So obviously that means you can just let the force puppet your body around in order to overcome any obstacle. She's lucky the force is a good sword fighter.
>>64576737
Doesn't matter. It's said in the movie. I'd wager that Vader knows more about the force than you so I'm gonna take his word for it.
>>64576553
That's probably a better description than mary sue
As it stands though, it's still pretty bad. We're not savants and we never feel like rey. I've never seen Good Will Hunting but I imagine matt damon's character has some serious issues that are stonewalling him that we can relate to, unlike rey.
>>64576854
As in "the force is a 4th dimensional medium you should move with"
It doesn't have a will and it isn't going to go out of its way to make you do shit on its own volition
>>64576813
The problem with that is we already had our "force prodigy" in Anakin, literally borne of that shit, and he still carried a myriad of issues with him and needed a lot of training.
Where does that put her? Mega God Jedi Extreme? Maybe there's a better word for it, ah yes "Mary Sue".
>>64576813
>i'm arbitrarily going to declare that mind control and telekinesis don't have to be learned but lightning does.
ok.
if you think that's what the story is going for ok. too bad the rest of the series is going to be so boring what with rey magically facerolling everything because she's the most powerful thing ever
>>64576700
You're pretty much ignoring the facts that were made clear in the movie.
>Kylo is trained. Rey is not.
>Rey had never used the force before and instinctively knew to use the mind trick after 2 failed attempts
>Rey, lacking experience, thinks back to what chick Yoda said to her earlier which is good enough to beat someone who worked hard to learn the ways of the force
There. This is the shit you are ignoring. You are basically saying that despite several movies showing us that using the force requires years of discipline and training, someone who has only ever heard stories and remembered some wise words(without actually ever using the force) should be able to beat someone trained.
>>64576562
>>64576683
You know whats more symbolic than a sword in stone reference?
Have the characters idolize the sword as a source of hope, a link to a warrior, then destroy it. It's just a weapon.
>>64576856
>force users never say things that are only true figuratively or from a certain point of view
wew
>>64576873
The difference with Will is that the movie isn't about him doing math. It's about something else. He's just exceedingly brilliant at it. Just like Rey is with the force.
Do you honestly have to feel like a character to enjoy a movie? Does it matter to you that you aren't a girl either, so you can never truly feel like her? Do you need a character to have problems like you do in order to identify or buy a movie? I'm not saying she has none, I'm just curious. Also watch Good Will Hunting. I realize the fact that you haven't seen it probably means you were born in 1997 or later.
Plagueis
>Using the force to create life
>Not just life, but life that is powerful with the force
>>64575383
He hates Yoda in general, but is acknowledging the fact that he was stronger in prequels. Also, fuck Yoda! That faggot could have stopped it all, but he let it happen. Suck a bunch of dicks he can!
>>64577012
>and all you have to do is murder every last Jedi in the galaxy including women and children
>but how will that save my wife Master Sheev?
>shut the fuck up Anakin you little pussy bitch
>>64577012
>Not just life, but life that is powerful with the force
nah his created life is pretty mediocre with the force. rey will probably catch up with anakin at the peak of his power after she hears someone say 'holocron'
>>64575622
And them combined is Dooku
>>64576926
He wasn't a force savant. He had the most midichlorians. But we know having lots of midichlorians doesn't make you s powerful force user in its own right - he lost to Dooku, Obi Wan, and Luke!
The fact that he needed training just means he was not a savant.
Most professors, even the smartest people, need lots of training to get where they are.
Then you have some people who are born incredibly intelligent, and can get to where professors are in a fraction of the time.
Look up Stephen Wolfram, Kim Young Un, Ted Kaczynski, Ramanujan, Gauss, John Von Neumann, Jose Capablanca, Terrence Tao, and Noam Elkies for examples of people I think are similar to Rey.
>>64576995
>Do you honestly have to feel like a character to enjoy a movie? Do you need a character to have problems like you do in order to identify or buy a movie?
On a very high/general level yes. 99% of us feel inadequate in big ways. Seeing a character that accomplishes everything they set out to do without struggling much is pretty boring. An underdog fits this type of story better anyway.
>>64577184
>all men
wew
>>64577184
>The fact that he needed training just means he was not a savant.
>Stephen Wolfram, Kim Young Un, Ted Kaczynski, Ramanujan, Gauss, John Von Neumann, Jose Capablanca, Terrence Tao, and Noam Elkies
I know you're being intentionally retarded to justify mary sue's existance but you realize those people also needed training, right? They got where the average mathematician is in a fraction of the time but that fraction was not 1 day to 10 years.
>>64576935
Telekinesis she saw Kylo Ren perform.
Same with mind control. She probed his mind and had hers probed. Then she realized she could use the force, and really well (better than him). So, she tried using it to make the stormtrooper do what she wanted. And it worked. If I discovered I had the force tomorrow, I would do the same thing.
Besides, the first force sensitive person to ever do a Jedi mind trick also obviously didn't learn it from anyone. Someone one day applied the force to weak mjnded individuals and it worked. She did the same thing. It's fine.
>>64576973
Prove it was figurative. I'll wait.
>>64577233
Idk, I find James Bond movies really enjoyable. Don't you? When I watch a movie, I don't really care for artificially created conflict, hamfisted romance or "flaws" designed to make the movie "interesting". I would never keep a mental checklist of things like that and decide to not like a movie if my checklist isn't satisfied.
>>64576810
How does the force partially control you without a will? When is the last time you watched the OT?
>>64576813
>Look up the definition of magic and you'll see its not magic.
>implying the central theme magic isn't about controlling the supernatural
>It requires no gestures, no rituals, no spells, no magic words, and doesn't require supernatural anything.
All of those are incorrect.
>It's a completely natural phenomenon in the SW universe.
Are you saying that because of the former sentence or because it actually exists for that fictional reality?
>>64577295
This. Geniuses are geniuses because they process information differently. This doesnt meant that if you told a potential genius that he is good at math that the next day he will be creating new formulas. It takes a while.
It took Rey about a day and nobody ever told her she was capable of using the force.
>>64577340
>Idk, I find James Bond movies really enjoyable. Don't you?
I did as a kid but they bore me to death now. I can't tell if its the qualities of the stories or the fact that a repeated formula gets old. But if I had to guess I'd say if I can't get into the characters, everything else is hopeless. James Bond is definitely not character driven
why was finn and kylo's duel so much cooler than rey and kylos
was it because there was real chemistry between the actors and a believable reason to want to fight each other
or was it because daisy ridley is a terrible actor
>>64577295
My friend, my point is there are those that NEED training and then there are people like the kind I mentioned. Those who don't have training but have immense intelligence which lets them do things it takes normal people many years of training to accomplish.
For example:
>According to Capablanca, he learned the rules of the game at the age of four by watching his father play, pointed out an illegal move by his father, and then beat his father twice.
Read the articles to have examples of people who are extraordinary mjnds vs average (by their standards) people who need a lifetime to get half the distance.
>>64576216
size fucking matters not retard
>>64577340
>Prove it was figurative
No one ever uses the force to do anything as major as blow up planets so there is no reason to think he was being literal from the perspective of immediate ability to do things. Wow that was hard. I'll admit I'm wrong after rey blows up a planet by glaring at it next movie though.
>Telekinesis she saw Kylo Ren perform.
That doesn't say anything about whether it has to be learned but ok. We all know if she started zapping him with force lightning that you'd also think force lightning was something you didn't have to learn.
>Same with mind control.
That isn't even true. Mind probing is not the same thing as mind control.
>>64577458
Same here. I always thought I was just crazy for not liking James Bond.
>>64577380
The force doesn't control you. You use it. It's a medium.
>>64575311
I was gonna say Galen Marek, but then I remembered that he's no longer canon and even if he were, Rey would still kick his ass. Fucking Sue.
>>64575311
I'd say it was a toss up between Sheev, Yoda, and Anakin. Obi-Wan and Mace are up there too but I feel they were successful a lot of times out of luck (like Obi-Wan having the high ground).
>>64577476
It was because it had a believable theme of Kylo toying with an overwhelmed opponent and ending the duel in seconds after the opponent gets in a lucky hit rather than the overwhelmed opponent winning because the plot fairies said so
>>64577487
>My friend, my point is there are those that NEED training and then there are people like the kind I mentioned.
Who also need training and just less of it?
>Those who don't have training but have immense intelligence which lets them do things it takes normal people many years of training to accomplish.
But they did have training before accomplishing anything.
>>According to Capablanca, he learned the rules of the game at the age of four by watching his father play, pointed out an illegal move by his father, and then beat his father twice.
Ok. That isn't doing math.
>>64577510
That's just what the force wants you to think.
In the end, balance is maintained.
we can all agree that the best bit about the movie is that they weren't afraid to have some cool new Force tricks, right?
I don't think mind-reading and stopping blaster bolts mid air were in the other movies, but they were cool as shit and I hope it continues
>>64577380
How does your heart beat without you consciously doing it without a will?
How does a tree grow without a will?
How does the wind blow without a will?
How do you breathe in yourself if your lungs don't have a will?
Magic is about controlling the supernatural... But the force is not supernatural. Yes, the force isn't supernatural for people in the star wars universe. They say it's an energy field that binds the galaxy together. It's been scientifically studied, as people can use it and harness it - the people that have are called Jedi.
Oh really? Name a ritual, spell book, magic word, or gesture REQUIRED to use force powers. Yoda moved the X Wing by concentrating. Vader choked the dude on the other ship by thinking about it. The gestures are there for the audience to see dude.
>>64577600
mind-reading was to a vague extent, like when Vader pulls leia's blood relationship to luke out of his head mid-fight
>>64575471
Yoda peeped on Luke all the way from Dagobah. He didn't need a TV like Vader did.
>>64577580
Yeah sure, k
what comes after "turn your brain off", "take it out of your head and smash it into a garbage can"?
>>64577603
you could say that about magic in its own universe, as wizards and mages study it and turn it into a science
trying to narrowly define magic is retarded, youre literally arguing pointless semantics
>>64575622
>Yoda was probably the most knowledgeable about the force and how to use it.
>only ever uses the force to pick up rocks
Fuck you.
>>64577600
Yeah. Besides the mind trick from the previous trilogies, we've never actually seen the force used for something like interrogation or even pulling information from someones mind.
Stopping the blaster shot and holding it while having conversation was just badass.
>>64577510
Come on anon I was very careful to use Obi-Wan's word "partially." It does control you and it also obeys your commands. It's both.
>>64577600
They just have to be careful not to write something too powerful, because once you include a new power, every scene you write after that has to be consistent.
Think about force speed. There are probably dozens of times it should've been used again, but that would be retarded.
I'm worried about the mind reading. What the villain doesn't know is pretty useful.
>>64577682
It's a neutral, mindless medium. Are you trying to imply it's God? Because it isn't.
>>64576127
this is true sadly
Who thinks this alternate ending is shit:
The starkiller is destroyed, but instead kylo ren acquires both map pieces.
They have no superweapon to blow up luke's planet, and he's too powerful to approach conventionally.
>>64577184
This Ramanujan person is mindblowing.
I wonder how true is it about that thing concerning receiving equations from his goddess.
>>64575999
Anakin is absolutely not winning the fight at the end if ROTS. He is more aggressive, which makes it look like he is winning. Obi-Wan, in addition to fighting, pays attention to all the shit going around and responds accordingly. Anakin barely scrapes away safely from lava falls and collapsing towers by spazzing out at the last minute. Even without high ground, Obi-Wan would have won that fight because Anakin would have slipped on a rock and split his skull or some dumb shit like that.
>>64577815
"goddess" is a metaphore for opium
>>64577505
This is bad logic. This is called denying the antecedent.
>If the weapon you use is the force, it is more powerful than a machine to blow up a planet
>but nobody with the force blew up a planet
>therefore, the force is not more powerful than a machine to blow up the planet
Compare:
>If president Obama is a canadian citizen, he is a human being.
>but Obama is not a Canadian citizen
>therefore, he is not a human being
You didn't prove he was bring figurative and you also didn't prove that nobody couldn't use the force to blow up a planet.
We didn't see anyone do it so we can't say for sure. What we do know is, whether or not it can be done, the power to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to a power of the force. As Vader, a force user, says.
>>64577572
Exactly. Knowing math required study. Being good at math depends on how intelligent you are -which has a genetic components. How quickly you absorb it,master it, how good you think, all the stuff that determines how good you'll be at math comes from inside you. Rey had all that stuff maxed, just with the force instead of thinking. I think you're getting it now.
>>64577618
What makes them pointless? The fact that you're wrong about what you said? Lol
>>64577815
They are all mind blowing. Ramanujan couldn't do basic analysis because he never learned - but the most complicated patterns were a joke to him because he was just so intelligent,he could just see things it took other people years to see. John von Neumann, Gauss, Euler are similar.
>>64577673
Yoda could discern the future and see shit at a distance not directly concerning him.
He was all astral projectorey.
>>64577816
Aggression is the point as they are both trying to kill each other
Obi Wan employs defense because its his only viable strategy against a superior dueler and Anakin, being as rash as he is, is willing to risk his situation in order to play into his game, like he's always done
Hotheads never prosper
>>64577870
No it isn't you dipshit. We're not logically deducing truths, we're using inductive reasoning. (the philosophical and not the mathematical definition before you spurge out) This is how belief formation in the real world works. If you want an absolute logically deduced truth about whether he was being figurative it can be neither confirmed or denied.
>>64577870
>Exactly. Knowing math required study. Being good at math depends on how intelligent you are -which has a genetic components. How quickly you absorb it,master it, how good you think, all the stuff that determines how good you'll be at math comes from inside you.
Ok that's a lot of irrelevant stuff. I was just pointing out how retarded you are for thinking real geniuses do not require training. They do.
>Rey had all that stuff maxed, just with the force instead of thinking.
Ok. That doesn't actually imply she requires no training because the people you are comparing her to did require training. But maybe ray is the ultimate mary sue force user and also force use doesn't require training. I agree with you that this is a valid explanation for why she can do what she does in the movie.
Can we all agree that only the OT is relevant when discussing this fucking nonsense?
>>64578083
>resorting to name calling and being bad at logic
Not gonna a read the rest of your post and I'm not gonna reply to it, son. Your argument is piss poor and your reasoning skills are bad.
>>64578099
sheev is such a non-design he looks like anything that's bald, stop posting this
They consistently ripped off mcquarrie for the production design instead of coming up with new ideas, and in the one instance where a character with features was needed, they go with wowitsfuckingnothing
>>64578150
The parts of the PT that aren't contradictory or ridiculous are acceptable as well
it is still Lucas' world even if the execution was bad
>>64578154
That's too bad, the second part of his post is the best
>>64575566
So we're playing dbz rules now. Even though they mix with non force users their offspring are even stronger
>>64578154
If you're going to be a troll you should at least do it intelligently so people can argue with and insult you instead of running away crying because they noticed you are demanding logical proofs in a context where no belief is formed with logical proofs.
>>64575825
How many examples do you need?
The power of a shotgun is insignificant compared to the power of a hydrogen bomb
But which one do more people die from
Anakin before he got his shit chopped off. You need living tissue to be strong in the force. He was still strong as fuck after losing his limbs so that says a lot.
>>64576022
>I wonder if all that obvious set up means anything about Kylo Ren's ability with the force.
Yeah, /tv/'s love/hate relationship with Rey aside, it was pretty clear what the movie was going for. Ren is a trained jedi who isn't actually very strong in the force while Rey has the raw talent. People like bitching about how fast Rey used her powers because the Star Wars movies haven't gone there before. In the first movie, Luke isn't seen as being particularly amazing in the force because Lucas probably hadn't fleshed out the background that much. With Anakin, we HEAR how strong he is... but like with a ton of things in the prequels, we never really see it. Similar to Obiwan and his friendship - we're told, but we don't really see it.
>>64578424
>Ren is a trained jedi who isn't actually very strong in the force while Rey has the raw talent.
I don't even think that's what they were going for. He's supposed to be strong in the force but really conflicted and shit which is holding him back (see him doing cool shit like freezing blaster bolts to establish villian cred). Meanwhile Rey might be strong with the force but I don't think she's supposed to be force jesus 2.0. They just made her seem that way and made him look like a bitch because they're hacks.
>>64578190
I hope you enjoyed it, lol.I enjoy idiots too, but not right now.
>>64578525
How can you claim what you think ought to be based on what is (what we saw)?
It doesn't matter what you think they were going for. What we SAW I'd that Rey had raw talent and that obviously Kylo was a trained Jedi who was shit compared to her. I agree with the other anon.
>>64578601
Wow you're fucking retarded
Neck yoiurself
>>64578424
I was really more trying to point out how Kylo sucks when he's fearful, sad, or met with an honest challenge but good with the force when he's in control of situations and at peace. It's a way of showing he'd be stronger embracing the light. I think it's an interesting take on the dark side, Kylo is trying to use it without actually giving into it so he's not getting the benefits of his emotions.
a puppet is the strongest force user in the star wars universe
>a puppet
>>64578525
Nothing about Ren's force strength seemed strong, though. IIRC thinking a scene or two where it looked pretty weak. That's in contrast to Rey. The writers poured over the originals and prequels when writing the sequels. I think they knew exactly what they were doing by making Rey use force persuasion so easily, beat Ren, etc. People hate on it because it makes Rey look TOO powerful... but we've no indication that the force can't work this way. I think Disney knows what it's doing here; it could prove me wrong in the next movie if they really fuck up, but so far I'm willing to believe Rey can be that powerful without it automatically meaning the writers are shit.
>>64578645
You talking about Yaddle m8?
>>64578355
Interesting never thought about that.
He went toe to toe with Obi Wan eventually but got his shit slapped by Dooku the first time. What else did he do that showed his potential power level?
>>64578670
Not necessarily powerful, either. Just better at using it than Ren. She didn't really do anything that struck me as being powerful. Had she pulled a star destroyer out of the sky, sure. But all she did was the basic simple shit.
>>64578690
The Clone Wars
>>64578601
>How can you claim what you think ought to be based on what is (what we saw)?
I don't know what you're trying to say but I didn't say I thought anything ought to be, just that I don't think that was their intention. Also just to verify were you the person I previously responded to? I thought he was someone else responding to the retarded troll and not the retarded troll himself but maybe I got confused.
>>64578642
That's what I took away. Kylo is too conflicted to be powerful in the dark side. Though he is strong enough to not die when Chewie shoots him, so hes got the potential.
>>64578690
Killed a bunch of sand people.
Killed a bunch of children.
His supposed powers are only ever alluded to and talked about.
I don't really think they say he's particularly powerful. He never does anything impressive with the force. He's a great pilot though.
>>64578734
Not sure what you're talking about. I don't know who you are but I thought you were the retarded troll arguing with the guy who called you out on not being able to reason or think critically.
>>64578739
They say he has great potential, not that he is powerful, he can (and would have had he not been turned into robocop) become the most powerful force user in the galaxy
>>64578767
Right. He has a lot of potential. But he never unlocks it. That's why he was beaten by Obi Wan despite his midichlorians.
>>64578690
Well the Tartakovski Clone Wars series showcased some of his power and since it directly ties into the 3rd movie that makes it as cannon as anything else. They didn't have him use the force a heck of a lot in the PT but if you are assuming precognition is part of every Jedi duelists repertoire then you could say he was a bad mother fucker.
>>64578823
Why didn't the midichlorians fly Anakin to the high ground?
>>64578670
>Nothing about Ren's force strength seemed strong, though.
He did presumably hard shit we've never seen before like freeze a blaster shot in midair and read minds. I think they wanted to build him up as a cool villain from a power standpoint and just have his problem be with motivation. In the novelization they apparently make more of an effort to emphasize how much the injury was hurting his ability to fight and even said killing his father depowered him somehow. So it's not like Rey is actually supposed to be shown to already be on his level because she's jedi jesus. Those aspects just weren't played up as much in the movie.
>>64578834
In ANH Obi Wan says precognition and retrospection are both basic things you do with the force. Then Luke predicts the locations of the lasers when he is training. I'd say based on that, every force user has precog and retrospec as a power.
>>64578886
Huh, interesting.
>>64578765
So you weren't the guy I was responding to and just the retarded troll who doesn't understand how belief formation works and who can't form a coherent chain of reasoning butting into the conversation. Good to know.
>>64578840
He literally tried to jump to the high ground and then got hacked to bits.
>>64578928
They also apparently emphasized how she was tapping into the dark side when she powered up. I think it's pretty clear that at some point they're going to swap teams.
>>64578934
Lmao relax. I assume you're you American? Why are you stalking this thread at 1230-30 am picking flights with people? You aren't even contributing at this point. Go to bed. Don't you have high school or college (if you're smart enough to get in) or a job to go to in a couple hours or something?
Phantom Menace
Qui-Gon was a pretty good Jedi, Darth Maul was better. Obi-Wan overcame Maul, he's excellent.
Obi-Wan > Darth Maul > Qui-Gon
Attack of the Clones
Dooku defeats both Obi-Wan and Anakin in a two on one fight. He's also powerful enough to match powers with Yoda in the force and fight him melee. Truly a masterful Sith. However, he's unable to kill Yoda, and needs to create a distraction to escape from him, thus Yoda is slightly better. It's unclear where Anakin stands at this point.
Yoda > Dooku > Obi-Wan > Darth Maul > Qui-Gon
Revenge of the Sith
Dooku manages to beat Obi-Wan, but as we will later see, Obi-Wan would improve even further throughout the movie, surpassing Dooku by the end of it. Anakin has far improved at this point, he out-maneuvers and kills Dooku, a very impressive feat. Obi-Wan defeats Grievous, who was an apprentice to Dooku. Sheev turns out to be strong and easily kills nearly everyone of the Jedi, he also clearly outsmarts and defeats Yoda (who had claimed Sheev was way too powerful for Obi-Wan, also implying Yoda's superiority over Obi-Wan), to the point that Yoda gives up hope of stopping him, which clearly means he's superior. Mace Windu, however, managed to beat Sheev, and the only reason why he didn't kill him was cause of Anakin betraying him. Anakin and Obi-Wan have a fight and Obi-Wan very clearly outsmarts him, thus being superior.
The OT doesn't change much. Vader may or may not be stronger at that point. Sheev implies it, but he still has a hard time with Obi-Wan, who only lets himself get killed on purpose. Luke is stronger than Vader but gets his ass kicked by Sheev. Sheev only dies because Vader betrays him.
100% OBJECTIVE POWERLEVELS
Mace Windu > Palpatine > Yoda > Obi-Wan > Anakin > Dooku > Darth Maul > Qui-Gon
Palpatine > Luke > Anakin
Obi-Wan > Darth Grievous
Palpatine > Generic Jedi's
>>64579035
I don't think the power levels should be ranked based on who won, especially with stuff like Qui-Gon v. Obi-Wan.
>>64578888
You still have variance on how accurate precognition is. The reason both Anakin and Luke were great pilots without any Jedi training was because their precognition was already very good. Some Jedi have poor precognition, like that random dude that just died to Jango's guns. Based on that I can assume Anakin had better precognition than most, so it is a sort of subtle showing of his power.
>>64579067
Obi-Wan beat Darth Maul when Qui Gon was unable to. It's a pretty simple affair.
>>64576622
>measures mastery of the force by the amount of shit you throw at your enemies
Wars not make one great, you fucking idiot.
>>64579159
Maybe you should do jedi greatness power rankings then.
>>64579143
That had nothing to do with the force. Winning a fight doesn't mean one person is stronger in the force than another. Even IRL, the stronger person doesn't always win a fight.
>>64575633
>If it doesn't, who cares about power levels if they can fluctuate depending on circumstances?
This is like saying who cares about ranking boxers is someone can just sucker punch mike Tyson in the back of the head and win.
Just because circumstances can mean the underdog can win, doesn't make him any less of an underdog,
When people talk about "power level", they are directly comparing their ability to use the force to other force users without other variables, "circumstances" has nothing to do with it.
You are a fucking retard if you can't grasp this basic concept.
>>64579035
>Darth Grievous
>>64579192
For force attunement with no prequel or EU horseshit: Yoda > Luke > Obi-wan
I'd say Obi Wan
He always got the higher ground and was a good friend
>>64575838
Because even in a setting were power level actually exists (DBZ), they don't always define who will win any any circumstance, just in circumstances where neither has a clear advantage. Stories naturally aren't that simple.
If you want it broken down for you real simple, if sheev and yoda were put in a ring and forced to fight, who would you put your money on to win? That's the one that's more powerful.
All I know is that Kylo Ren is easily the most incompetent Sith in history.
>fails to capture not-R2D2 twice
>throws hissy fits in response, smashing up electronic equipment with his lightsaber like a little kid
>figures he doesn't need the droid since he can get the information out of Rey's head
>gets reverse mind-fucked instead and lets his captive escape
>nearly loses a lightsaber duel to a random low-level ex-stormtrooper
>loses a duel to a girl who has never picked up a lightsaber in her life
At no point in TFA was Kyo Ken made to look powerful, intimidating, or even competent.
>>64579296
How can you rank Luke above obi wan?
At the end of RotJ I don't really see how you can rank him above (or below) obi wan, it's like he's finally figured out what obi wan has been saying, not really figured out anything new
>>64579035
Based Mace WIndu
>>64579423
He knew enough darkside powers at the beginning of RotJ while still not succumbing to them to put him above Obi-wan, let alone ignoring VII.
>>64579462
What dark side powers?
>>64579396
I'm glad you watched the movie and fully understood Kylo Ren at that point on his path.
>>64579482
He force chokes two Gammorean guards, bruh.
>>64579517
I don't even remember that, fair enough.
I still say we just don't know enough about obi wan (OT only), we never really see him try. To me he still seems more wise than RotJ Luke, like he doesn't need to use barbaric shit like choking people to get stuff done.
>>64579517
How are those dark side powers? What differentiates a dark side power from a light side power?
>>64575622
Doesn't Anakin tell Padme though that Obi Wan is "as powerful as master Windu and as wise as master Yoda"?
>>64579566
My guess is if a power is used to torture or directly kill then it is a dark side power.
>>64579551
>he doesn't need to use barbaric shit like choking people to get stuff done.
I'm okay with that. That was my original argument against Sheev being more powerful than Yoda. It shouldn't really be amount the display of power. I just think as far force mastery goes, I'd say Luke has a broader scope. Obi-Wan is more forced on the light.
>>64579551
Obi wan probably is more wise. But intelligence isn't connected to Force. Luke's a dumb water farmer on a desert planet, but he just so happens to be strong in the Force.
>>64579614
That's a pretty glib interpretation because almost every power could be used to do that. I never bought the idea that there were light or dark side powers. Neither do the movies. There are just force abilities. People choose tobuse whichever abilities suit whatever purpose.
>>64579566
Force choking is a dark side power in kotor because obviously no light jedi could use the force to pushing inwards in a ring.
>>64579566
I'm not a big fan of the binary powers reserved for one side or the other either, but in the movies, bad guys are almost exclusively offensive while good guys misdirect, buff, and defend.
>>64579638
Yeah I can understand there being dark/light powers in a game to differentiate the sides and make the game fun but I don't think that's the case in the movies.
>>64579637
I favor that opinion, too, but here's where you're wrong:
>Neither do the movies.
>>64579647
That doesn't really mean that there are powers reserved to one side. Luke chokes people, Darth Maul uses force pushing, light side and dark side Jedi use mind tricks, telekinesis... The separation is from KOTOR, not the movies.
>>64579664
Where in the movies is there a list of light side and dark side powers given? The movies talk about the differences between the two sides in the sense that people tap into the force differently based on what side they choose. But nothing about specific powers being inherent to one side. In fact, the movies never talk about specific force abilities like they are specific skills in KOTOR - they only talk about using the force to X or using the force to Y.
>>64579683
Dude, the games actually tried to lose the binary bullshit, but Lucas hated it. Obviously there's some crossover with the basics, but no lightside force user uses shit like lightning in the movies. Most don't force choke. Basically if you're using the force to hurt someone, that's bad. If you're using it for "the greater good™" it's lightside.
>>64579716
There isn't a powerpoint slide in any of the movies. Just watch what the characters do. The characters display a set range of powers. The only real "lightside-offensive" exception is when Luke force chokes the Gamorrean guards, and that's a pivotal point for him as a force user.
>>64579755
Not every dark side user uses lightnjng. In the prequels, Vader doesn't use lightning.
I agree with what you're saying, but what you've said is what I've said. There is no binary separation mentioned - what determines whether the use of a power is good or bad determines its use.
But this is different from what you said earlier about there being specific light or dark side powers. Like going on what you and I agree on now, force lightning could be a good power if it is used for the greater good, like saving a family from a bunch of storm troopers.
Also how do you know Lucas hated the supposed step away from binary powers the games made? Which games made the steps away from it? As I recall, KOTOR started it and it was heavily polarized.
Is high ground a dark power?
>>64579803
So, there's no list.
There's never any mention in the movie about Jedi being restricted to a specific set of powers.
Dark side Jedi would NEVER be restricted to a set of powers based entirely on the fact that they want to totally master the force.
The characters never mention force powers by name like in a video game.
In short, I'm not convinced. There's just the force and how you use it. I doubt specific powers have anything to do with the morality of the user. I think how a power is used has more to do with the morality of the user.
>>64579828
Not every dark side user uses lightning, but only dark side users use lightning. I think we agree that the force shouldn't be limited to light side box and dark side box regarding powers. I think that diminishes the mystical nature of it almost more than midochlorians. But in the movies — based on how the established characters use those powers — those really tend to support the opposite opinion.
>>64579846
No but using a lightsaber to fight someone is because it's not defensive or a buff.
>>64579863
When I watch superman, there isn't a cue card in the middle of the movie denoting what his powers are, but I know what he can do based on what he does in the movies. These are observational skills, and it's how the movie "lists" things for you.
>>64579873
Yes but what are you getting at with that? Only Luke drew his lightsaber towards him with the force - does that mean THAT is a lightsight power? Does that mean nobody else can do it?
Also just because only dark side users HAVE used lightnjng does not mean that ONLY dark side users use lightning.
>>64579828
>KOTOR started it and it was heavily polarized.
Oh, also, if you're a fan of grey jedi, you really need to play KOTOR II
>>64579916
That's not really the point. Based on what Superman and Zod do, can you tell me which of the powers are "good guy" powers and which are "bad guy" powers? You can't do it with Jedi vs Sith, and you can't do it with Superman vs Zod becuase its nonsense. The issue wasn't whether you're able to see people use powers. The issue was deteminging whether or not Jedi and Sith are restricted to specific power sets based on which religion they chose - and they aren't.
>>64579926
>Also just because only dark side users HAVE used lightnjng does not mean that ONLY dark side users use lightning.
It literally does mean that if we're referring only the movies, which we are.
>>64579939
Dude I'm 26 years old. I've had Kotor and KOTOR 2 since they came out. Not everyone here was born in 1997 and had a PS3 as their first video game system.
>>64579954
Don't you...don't you EVER reply to me again if you're not going to contribute to the thread.
>>64579954
>can you tell me which of the powers are "good guy" powers and which are "bad guy" powers
I could if Zod only used one set of powers, and Superman exclusively used another.
>>64579975
Oh cool. So I guess you just forgot everything in Kotor 2, then?
>>64579955
You cant conclude that ONLY dark side users can use lightning just because you've only seen dark side users use it.
What kind of reasoning is that? That's like saying only light side users can use the force to draw his lightsaber from across the room because Luke is the only person who does that in the movies.
>>64579926
>Also just because only dark side users HAVE used lightnjng does not mean that ONLY dark side users use lightning.
I think it does. It is implied in the movies that your points in dark side and light side are quantifiable. A deeper study into either side (more notably the dark side) unlocks greater powers.
A reason why we never see Maul or vader use it is probably because they never felt they needed to dedicate the time to learning the ability because they were proficient enough in other areas (ie light saber dueling).
>>64580009
Well the reasoning is literally all of the concrete evidence supports binary powers. I mean, like I said, I prefer to believe in a more flexible set of abilities, but the movies do not support that.
>>64580000
No, I just choose to ignore it because it was a shit game and unfinished. And neither game is canon anyway.
>>64579977
LOL what new kind of autism is this?
>>64579986
Zod shot a white beam from his fingers to move things. Superman had that cellophane S.
You're confusing necessary with sufficient conditions.
>>64580035
It doesn't because Luke uses force choke which is allegedly a dark side power. This is a counter example to the binary power hypothesis.
>>64579035
Mace Windu > Palpatine > Yoda > Obi-Wan > Anakin > Dooku > Darth Maul > Qui-Gon
Palpatine > Luke > Anakin
Obi-Wan > Darth Grievous
Palpatine > Generic Jedi's
Luke > Rey > Kylo Ren
>>64580052
It's the single exception in a time where Luke is supposed to be struggling with the dark side's influence.
>>64580052
Maybe luke has some dark side in him hmmmmmm?
You dont have to either dark side or light side you can be a bit of both.
>>64580083
He's not struggling and he also hasn't turned yet. Are you seriously suggesting that once he fully turned to the light, he'd be unable to use the force to tighten someones neck to choke them? The force would just magically know it was an evil power being used for a nefarious purpose and not do it. That's what you're suggesting.
>>64580129
No, but he would choose not to use these powers in favor of more 'Jedi' methods. The more you use dark side powers the more you are drawn to the darkside.
>>64580129
Maybe we watched different movies. Luke is pretty clearly in rough state after V, and at the beginning of VI, nigger's dealing with all kinds of influence from his father, his emotions, and his anger. Regardless, I'm saying that if we was fully light, he wouldn't force choke.
>>64580191
>>64580182
Great. So what I said earlier about force users being able to use whatever power they wanted? We finally all agree on that. What you are saying is that Jedi might choose not to use certain powers, and then obviously Sith would use whatever they wanted.
In most circumstances, this is probably true. I could still see Luke or light side jedi using force lightning, if he learned it, to disable a bunch of storm troopers if he and his friends were surrounded or power a generator for a starving family for example.
I also disagree when you say using dark side powers more means you fall towards it. Maybe in KOTOR, sure.
>>64580251
>I also disagree when you say using dark side powers more means you fall towards it. Maybe in KOTOR, sure
Using force powers requires you to use your emotions, especially hatred and anger for dark side powers. Using any of these emotions pulls you towards the dark side.
>>64580251
Using force powers offensively is the dark side. I'm saying the movies illustrate that by giving dark side users powers like lightning and force choke to show the force harming people, while the light side users exclusively use more subtlety in order to misdirect, inspire, and defend. So is it possible for a lightside jedi to learn lightning in order to defend? Maybe, but the movies have never done that for obvious reasons.
Raw strength goes to Vader, he led non-force sensitives on a rampage through the main jedi temple of the galaxy on coruscant. A battle of attrition against what was surely hundreds of semi-trained to Knight-worthy force-sensitives.
Finesse goes to Kenobi. His skill with a saber was on par with or exceeds Windu, who we never really see do much of anything. He's shown several times throughout the movie to be an excellent warrior. He fights Grievous one on one and wins. He teams up with Anakin, the jesus of the setting, to fight the second most powerful Sith in the entire galaxy, Dooku. Finally, he defeats Vader in a 1v1 battle over a fucking volcano.
For Force power its Yoda, he is powerful enough in the force to sense an extreme darkness approaching. Can sense the death of the younglings even though no one else can (if I remember right). Several times hes shown powerful use of the force, the force battle with Dooku in the clown wars, lifting the X-Wing in the OT, fighting by using the force to strengthen himself and propel himself around.
All three are also Force Ghosts.
Honourary Mention goes to Sheev. Not so much of a powerful force user though he pulls off a mind-trick against a group of alert and vengeful jedi and the whole unlimited power shtick of his lightning. A machiavellian powerhouse of amoral madness, he corrupted the Old Republic in to a Sith Empire and utterly annihilated the Jedi Order, a feat that no Sith in existence has managed to do so completely.
Probably starkiller.
>>64579614
"Force Choke" is a Sith video game move.
Using the force to collapse someone's windpipe is a neutral thing.
>>64580018
Vader is unable to create force lightning, because he doesn't have hands.
Maul only uses the force at all like, once. His hands were too busy with the memesaber. I'll wager he could generate lightning if he wanted.
