>"I'm a feminist." What did he mean by this?
>>64317900
So he lasted about a week before they got him to crack, ah well he lasted longer than I thought he would.
>>64317900
>What did he mean by this?
That he doesn't hate women, just Rey.
>>64317900
>"I'm a feminist"
>gay doesn't like them enough to want to fuck them
Is Max Landis gay? And I mean actually gay in that he likes to fuck and be fucked by men, not just gay in the sense that he has a gay haircut.
>>64318885
Ever noticed how Kristen Stewart looked like him but female?
>>64317900
He thinks that being a feminist will get him laid
>>64317900
That he dont have the balls to take the fight to the SJW's , so he yells the safe word >im a feminist
To stop them from causing him any more pain
>>64318885
i'll be surprised if he wasn't.
>>64317900
He meant that his complaints on tfa were about story, character and narrative - not about the sex of the actor
>>64317900
It means he enjoys the cock.
>>64320812
Turns out he isn't, he's got a girlfriend and everything. He's just an attention whore.
>>6431790
"I'm a gigantic faggot"
Men cannot be feminists. They can only support feminism.
He's so desperate to stay relevant. I mean hell, he's been flip flopping like crazy about his enjoyment of the movie. On screen junkies he said it was okay and then on another video he said he hated it.
Then he came up with that bullshit "Mary Sue" complaint that his fanboys started to parrot.
Now he's a "feminist". He can't keep his story straight anymore.
No clue why people care for his opinions.
>>64320812
How much of a faggot can one guy be right here, shit.
>>64321876
Dude's the only guy in hollywood bashing SW a bit, gotta support him.
>>64321876
I don't think the Mary Sue complaint is illegitimate. The main issue with it is that, for Luke, his progression in knowledge of the force and its application was a steady growth throughout all three movies. Rey figured out all that shit by herself, and also beat a Sith (who was technically still an apprentice and also wounded) without ever handling a lightsaber (though she did have that staff thing).
Where is she supposed to go from here? It's not like Luke can really teach her stuff beyond the philosophical side of the force or maybe help her train a bit more. The way they've structured the story, they either need a new villain entirely or they need Kylo Ren to get stronger. There's just not many things they can do with this character beyond her finding out where her family is, who left her on Jakku, etc.
>>64321876
>Came up with that bullshit Mary Sue complaint
Just kill yourself you stupid fucking queer.
Question: Is there anything wrong in feminism, feminism in this instance being Men and women should be equal?
That being where it starts and stops?
>>64317900
>i'm pussy whipped for life
>>64321876
>bullshit "Mary Sue" complaint that his fanboys started to parrot.
>Can pilot the Millennium Falcon instantly and be a better pilot than highly trained First Order pilots
>Instantly knows how to diagnose and fix problems on the Millennium Falcon
>Instantly masters the Jedi Mindtrick
>Instantly masters Force meditate
wew, lad.
>>64317900
>"I'm a feminist."
Nice meme
>>64322158
that's the original meaning from the 1920s, today's feminists want to push men (especially hetero white men) down to equalize the genders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRbFKuEY5jk
>Max Landis BTFO
>>64322158
If feminists thought men and women should be equal, they wouldn't use a word derivative of 'female'. Stay cucked.
>>64322225
>Luke picks up a lightsaber, hears about the Force, and 26 mins later he is angry at Han for not believing in it
>Luke is angry that Han doesn't believe in something he had literally never heard of until 26 mins earlier
>
>Rey has been looking after herself on a miserable planet for years and has become good at a lot of things, just like Luke
>Then a dark Jedi enters her brain and something Awakens. Then she's better at stuff just like Luke
>B-but it's okay if Luke does it
>>64322158
There is nothing inherently wrong with feminism, it is the people using for personal gain that is the problem, like most movements.
>>64323777
What are you blathering about? What is this nonsense?
>>64322005
There are issues reasonable people can take with the storytelling of VII. I have some. But "Rey is too good at things!" is silly. Based on how good other people are at things in previous movies. And if her flaws haven't fully emerged as storytelling devices they are certainly present, already: reluctance to leave home, clinging to the past, unwillingness to be part of something larger.
If IV came out now it would be torn to shreds. Celebrated, I'd imagine, for it's dialogue and thin characterization. IV was great. VII was great. Luke: great. Rey: great.
>>64324086
Celebrated for it's singular vision but ripped on for dialogue and thin characterization*
>>64322005
>>64322225
The biggest issue with TFA is that it is working so hard to set up so many plotpoints for the other movies that we have no idea right now what is a plot hole, and what is a gap left to fill in later to make the whole puzzle fit together at the end of the trilogy.
For all we know Rey was a trained jedi knight that someone mind-wiped and dumped on Jakku. Also that shit about the falcon. It was owned by her 'owner' that fat portions man, she sounds like she's worked on it, been in it before. "so and so installed a compressor I thought it was a bad idea" she may have helped install it for all we know.
>>64323777
que?
this never happened
>>64322005
Rey was taught by Luke and memory locked too. Of course she cannot win if she is handling her first lightsaber but she was starting ti remember. It was clear with her flashbacks when being near Luke's saber.
>>64317900
You just look at the face of poor kucks like that and you can see they're nothing but spineless bitches.
Rey was Luke's student and memory blocked her. And now she's starting to remember. Some people have the feeling that she is Luke's daughter but then I don't get how Han didn't recognize her.
>>64323777
Let's go along with this and say that Luke buys into the Force quickly. What does that make him?
A fucking 19 year old who just saw his entire known family murdered, and was told by someone with obvious magic powers that Luke too is magic and special, and he can save the galaxy and the hot princess. So he gets snippy with the guy who starts shitting on that dream. Great, stranger things have happened.
What doesn't happen is Luke instantly mastering the Force. Fuck, until Episode V we don't even see a demonstration of Luke having the Force, beyond believing him in himself. He isn't mind controlling people, fighting Vader to a standstill, and doing all kinds of shit just because someone said, "Hey, Force is real and you got it." He actually had to work to get better, and we saw that work.
>>64322225
In Episode 4, 26 minutes elapse from when Luke hears about the Force for the first time and when he uses it. Most of that not his story.
Also, he blows up the Death Star, by using the Force, while flying a spaceship he has never seen until a minute earlier.
Rey is a better character than Luke, and the role is far better acted, and complaining about her "being too good at things" is garbage.
Jedi have abilities. It's the deal with Jedi. She's a Jedi. The movie explains both her terrestrial and Force-based abilities quite well.
>B-but Luke had at least someone training him and he never had a lightsaber duel in episode 4
1. His training was 30 seconds long, plus a vague ghost talk
2. Rey is already skilled at hand-to-hand combat
3. Luke's training in IV was Obi-Wan saying "Trust your feelings." and "Run, Luke! Run!"
>B-but she went toe to toe with an already trained Jedi
Kylo Ren is a jittery novice, and he was winning easily until she did exactly what Luke did in IV
>B-but she's a better pilot than Han!!
No she wasn't. She could barely get the Falcon off the ground while Han performed a precision light speed jump IN a hanger.
>Instantly knows how to diagnose and fix problems on the Millennium Falcon
She's a scrapper who rummages through downed vehicles for parts and knows how they work including the Falcon which is on her planet at the time
>Instantly masters the Jedi Mindtrick
She had to say it three times for it to work and she's a Skywalker
>Instantly masters Force meditate
She is someone who grew up on a planet alone patiently waiting for her family to return. I think she could master mediation easily.
Do people just not pay attention to movies these days? I never imagined we'd reach the piont where JJ Abrams was unquestionably subtler and smarter than his detractors, but here we are.
>>64317900
looks exactly like a thin mike in this picture
>he
>>64324604
>She had to say it three times for it to work and she's a Skywalker
w-woah THREE times! good thing it wasn't just once! That totally makes her development legitimate
>>64324604
>In Episode 4, 26 minutes elapse from when Luke hears about the Force for the first time and when he uses it. Most of that not his story.
You mean the bit where he is under the tutelage of a Jedi master, and maybe just deflected one training bolt by blind luck after failing countless times on the trip from Tatooine to Alderaan (which is of unknown length, but seems to take a while).
>Also, he blows up the Death Star, by using the Force, while flying a spaceship he has never seen until a minute earlier.
The guy had at least established that he was a trained pilot who was known for flying an aircraft (the T-16) and blasting womprats on the ground? Who, it's true, is behind the wheel of an X-Wing for the first time, but has his handy R2 unit to help, along with several squadrons of trained pilots who buy him time with their lives? As opposed to the girl who explicitly has never piloted shit, operating a craft that explicitly requires two people to fly (which has been sitting around in the desert for God knows how many years), beating several trained First Order pilots in attack craft by herself (with minor gunnery support)?
>>64324604
Her development is too fast for any force sensitive. Training IS needed. The only reason she won was because she was trained and in the movie she was starting to remember.
>>64317900
$$$$
>2016
>Putting your ketchup in the fridge
>ISHYGDDT
>>64324604
>Luke's training with the lightsaber
Are you actually retarded? He didn't do shit with it in Episode 4, he got a bit of training in 5 and still got his ass handed to him by the expert. Even in 6 he just barely squeaks a win past Vader, because his Dad wasn't trying to kill him, after years of training.
>>64324604
>Kylo Ren is a jittery novice, and he was winning easily until she did exactly what Luke did in IV
Kylo Ren killed literally every other person in his class, and either beat or got around Luke, before spending the last decade learning from Snoke. Fuck this 'novice' bullshit, it's a piss-poor excuse that ignores every other detail in the movie.
>>64324604
>No she wasn't. She could barely get the Falcon off the ground while Han performed a precision light speed jump IN a hanger.
And then immediately after taking off mastered flying the two-person vehicle, outmaneuvering multiple attack craft. She didn't have trouble flying, she had trouble turning the key.
>>Instantly masters the Jedi Mindtrick
>She had to say it three times for it to work and she's a Skywalker
Headcanon, and repeating yourself three times in 20 seconds is not a learning experience. Fuck, how does she even know that she can mind control people, and in a way completely different from Ren's attempt to mind control her?
>She is someone who grew up on a planet alone patiently waiting for her family to return. I think she could master mediation easily.
Being lonely =/= meditation, or magic powers. Also, actual monks spend decades learning meditation and still have trouble. So piss-poor it doesn't deserve a long response.
>>64324604
>In Episode 4, 26 minutes elapse from when Luke hears about the Force for the first time and when he uses it
>3. Luke's training in IV was Obi-Wan saying "Trust your feelings." and "Run, Luke! Run!"
Are you implying that time doesn't pass off-screen? Have you ever heard of a montage?
Obi-Wan said he was going to train Luke. We have footage of him training Luke. We have an undetermined gap of time in between them leaving Tatooine, space time, and arriving at the Death Star. Your mind fills in the fucking blanks.
>His training was 30 seconds long, plus a vague ghost talk
Film time, yeah. Who knows how long he actually spent.
>>64324790
>>64324737
>Her development is too fast for any force sensitive
This is the first movie that we know is going to be part of a trilogy. We don't know her backstory other than she was left on Jakku. But based on her flashback memories, you can infer that she has at least met Jedi and could have potentially had while she was young training. Wasn't until Kylo tried to enter her mind that her true Force use was "Awakened". She had no idea she could use the mindtrick until Kylo tried to use it on her.
>>64324761
>You mean the bit where he is under the tutelage of a Jedi master
Who, like I said, gave him the most minimal of advice possible. Luke relied heavily on the Force.
>As opposed to the girl who explicitly has never piloted shit, operating a craft that explicitly requires two people to fly
Who's to say that she never entered the Falcon to inspect it for her job. We know she is gifted in the Force, like all Skywalkers, and that she could potentially fly it. Like I also said, her take off AND flying wasn't not pro.
>>64325149
So now we don't need to train any skills, we just need to "Awaken" them. Gotcha
>Who's to say
this is the part where we just make up headcanon, huh? Who's to say Finn and TR8R aren't gay lovers?
Feminists =/= neo feminists
>>64324967
>Luke's training with the lightsaber
I did not say he used the lightsaber in episode 4. I said he didn't. Reread what I said.
>Kylo Ren killed literally every other person in his class, and either beat or got around Luke, before spending the last decade learning from Snoke. Fuck this 'novice' bullshit, it's a piss-poor excuse that ignores every other detail in the movie.
We don't know that he did. For all we know that was Kylo Ren's first real fight with a lightsaber that was not training. Also, like I said he was "winning"
>And then immediately after taking off mastered flying the two-person vehicle, outmaneuvering multiple attack craft. She didn't have trouble flying, she had trouble turning the key.
Who's to say that she never entered the Falcon to inspect it for her job. We know she is gifted in the Force, like all Skywalkers, and that she could potentially fly it. Like I also said, her take off AND flying wasn't not pro.
>Fuck, how does she even know that she can mind control people, and in a way completely different from Ren's attempt to mind control her?
Because Kylo Ren had moments before tried to mind control her into talking. Who's to say what Kylo Ren did and what Rey did are any different from one another?
>Being lonely =/= meditation, or magic powers.
You're right and I did not say that. The moments showing her sitting near her home eating and waiting showed she had the patience needed to be good at mediation
>Also, actual monks spend decades learning meditation and still have trouble.
Are they Jedi?
>>64325149
>Who's to say that she never entered the Falcon to inspect it for her job.
She obviously has been inside it, because she knows the modifications made (though why her is just convenient). However, she said herself, when they were getting on board, that she wasn't a pilot.
>being Skywalker means you magically can fly everything
OK, keep beating that drum. Not a confirmed Skywalker, btw, so keep that speculative shit in it's own corner away from actual arguments based on known facts.
>her take off and flying wasn't pro
He take-off was a little bumpy, but so was that of the so-called 'best pilot in the galaxy' a few minutes earlier, when he couldn't work out how to disengage the fuel line. But she immediately not only became a pro, but better than a pro; she took a bulky cargo ship and outmaneuvered the small and fast TIE fighters piloted by professionals literally trained from birth to do that. She flew rings around them, AND in a ship that is supposed to be flown by two people. Compare with Episode IV, where Chewie and Leia fly the Falcon with Han and Luke in the gunner seats. It's a way closer run thing, with a full crew including a force sensitive and two veteran crewmembers.
>who gave the most minimal advice possible
Are you being deliberately obtuse? You're comparing someone who was given some training (you don't know how much) by an expert, possibly over the course of days, who still fucked up regularly, with someone who just found out she has the Force and instantly mastered things that the guy who went through two Masters struggled with.
>>64318102
>they got him to crack
I'm pretty sure Max has always been a proud feminist. Also, he hasn't retracted any of his complaints about Rey.
>>64325343
>So now we don't need to train any skills, we just need to "Awaken" them. Gotcha
I said we don't have all of her backstory or if she actually had training before. This is movie 1 of 3.
>>64325501
You are reaching like Stretch Armstrong, son.
>The training with the lightsaber
You're ignoring the broader point, cherry-picking the very beginning of the paragraph. Luke trained and was beaten, trained and kinda-won. Rey went from zero to victor in about 8 minutes.
>Ren
Either you trust the visions or you don't, anon. If Rey's visions somehow indicate that she is a secret Jedi, they definitely show Ren standing in a field of lightsabered corpses. And he was 'winning', and then lost. That's what experts call 'losing.'
>Who's to say the mind control is any different?
The movie. The movie that showed Ren strapping her down and trying to punch his way in with brute force, as opposed to Rey asking nicely like she just watched a clip of someone looking for droids. Even if they are using the same mental tactics with completely different outward appearances, we have the handy comparison of Oscar Isaac to see what happens when someone tries that technique on a non-Force sensitive. If you can't remember, it's hard and painful for the subject, and that's with someone who has experience mind-controlling people.
>>64325513
>However, she said herself, when they were getting on board, that she wasn't a pilot.
And it showed. Her flying was not masterful, I've said this already.
>Not a confirmed Skywalker
It isnt confirmed that she is or isn't. I guess we'll have to leave that argument until we see the next two movies, huh.
>a little bumpy
It was very bumpy. She almost crashed multiple times into the ground and other ships around them. I will admit she got better than her start, but she was in no way shape or form a "pro" or better.
>Are you being deliberately obtuse? You're comparing someone who was given some training (you don't know how much) by an expert, possibly over the course of days, who still fucked up regularly, with someone who just found out she has the Force and instantly mastered things that the guy who went through two Masters struggled with.
We don't know how much training Rey has received because we don't know her backstory. If you can say that Luke had off screen training from Old Ben, then I can say Rey did before the movies start.
>>64317900
>"I'm a feminist." What did he mean by this?
He meant he's a cowardly faggot, and a submissive "male", that doesn't have the balls to assert, or champion, his masculinity, or call out females, and their white knight eunuch supporters, for their hypocritical bullshit.
That, or he's just a faggot.
>>64317900
TELL THA'TA KANJIKLOOB
>>64320812
Why?
>>64325710
>Luke trained and was beaten, trained and kinda-won. Rey went from zero to victor in about 8 minutes.
Like I said, from what we were shown in the movies, Luke had very little training in IV.
Rey, actually, went from running away fighting to just holding her own when she started to "let the Force flow through her". She was not going to beat Kylo Ren during their fight and was saved by the planet splitting. Watch the movie again and refresh your memory.
>Either you trust the visions or you don't, anon. If Rey's visions somehow indicate that she is a secret Jedi, they definitely show Ren standing in a field of lightsabered corpses. And he was 'winning', and then lost. That's what experts call 'losing.'
Let's watch the next two movies so we can find out what those memories Rey had are.
>The movie. The movie that showed Ren strapping her down and trying to punch his way in with brute force, as opposed to Rey asking nicely like she just watched a clip of someone looking for droids. Even if they are using the same mental tactics with completely different outward appearances, we have the handy comparison of Oscar Isaac to see what happens when someone tries that technique on a non-Force sensitive. If you can't remember, it's hard and painful for the subject, and that's with someone who has experience mind-controlling people.
Yeah, I don't think the Force is compartmentalized like that.
>>64325757
>And it showed. Her flying was not masterful, I've said this already.
You've said it, then I've provided you with evidence from the film proving that statement wrong, then you said it again.
>It isnt confirmed that she is or isn't. I guess we'll have to leave that argument until we see the next two movies, huh.
So you're a confirmed faggot who is basing his argument of the fact that something hasn't been explicitly shown to be false, despite the context clues of none of Luke's friends knowing her and her having memories of a family, putting all your eggs in the 'Force amnesia and false memories' basket despite that not being a Force power shown in canon.
>We don't know how much training Rey has received because we don't know her backstory. If you can say that Luke had off screen training from Old Ben, then I can say Rey did before the movies start.
We do know her backstory, though. Child abandoned on desert planet by family, grew up wishing she could leave planet while looting wreckage. You are literally inventing a backstory for her that contradicts the backstory given so you can justify her abilities. And Luke's training isn't off-screen, it's compressed. We get a short snippet from the end of it to show that it happened, without going over the entirety of the training period, because that's fucking boring.
MALE FEMINISTS ARE WORSE THAN REAL FEMINISTS.
he probably meant surface feminism which is just believing equality, and not tumblr feminism, which is the only side 4chan sees.
>>64325905
>Like I said, from what we were shown in the movies, Luke had very little training in IV.
>Rey, actually, went from running away fighting to just holding her own when she started to "let the Force flow through her". She was not going to beat Kylo Ren during their fight and was saved by the planet splitting. Watch the movie again and refresh your memory.
I did, and you know what I remember? I remember Rey standing above Ren (who was BTFO and possibly unconscious), lightsaber ready, when the planet split. She was in just as good a position to kill him as anyone, and it definitely counts as winning the fight.
And nobody is saying that Luke had good training in IV. He had some, never used the lightsaber, had some more, lost his first fight badly, then had fucking MORE TRAINING! It was a progression, one that went beyond 'running away to turning around to kicking ass over a few minutes'.
>Yeah, I don't think the Force is compartmentalized like that.
Great. Keep thinking that, based on zero evidence shown and against the evidence presented to you.
>>64325905
What?
she recked kylo.
it is kylo who is saved. Did you even watch the movie?
luke has at least a little training in iv and uncle obi in hisnear who manifested as a force ghost at the end of thr movie. All he does eith the force is feeling the right moment to press a button.
it is a whole time after it he lewrns to force grab.
>>64325905
And >hey lets watch the other tow movies maybe they explain shit
seriously? Disney wants to sell me a fucking product and each movie is a different product. The first was sloppy and lazy. A movie must be able to stand on its own. Even the lord of the rings films can do thst ehile having a way broader story arch.
Are there actually idiots here who think that the events of VI happened days after V? There was a huge gap in time between movies you stupid shits.
>>64317900
"Stop calling me sexist for pointing out that Rey is a shit character."
>>64326212
There was also a huge gap between IV and V. Plenty of time for Luke to train.The next one is going to be far in the future get Finnigger back on his feet
>>64325913
>I've provided you with evidence
My counter is that she barely got it off the ground and barely escaped. I don't know what else to say.
>So you're a confirmed faggot who is basing his argument of the fact that something hasn't been explicitly shown to be false, despite the context clues of none of Luke's friends knowing her and her having memories of a family, putting all your eggs in the 'Force amnesia and false memories' basket despite that not being a Force power shown in canon.
Speculation is all we have to go on because we don't know. My initial argument is the fact that people wanted a whole trilogy to be explained in one movie.
>We do know her backstory, though
We know the surface level of her backstory with little hints as to the real reason she was left there.
It was compressed off screen.
>>64326305
>Plenty of time for Luke to train.
How? He didn't know about Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't appear to him until the beginning of Episode V. All he could've done was the basic training exercise Obi-Wan taught him in IV and that wouldn't have been enough to turn him into a Jedi knight.
>>64326034
>I did, and you know what I remember? I remember Rey standing above Ren (who was BTFO and possibly unconscious), lightsaber ready, when the planet split. She was in just as good a position to kill him as anyone, and it definitely counts as winning the fight.
From what I remember, Kylo was caught off guard by her sudden ability to meet him on his level.
Also, now I'm confused. One moment you were arguing that he was dominating and the next that he wasn't.
>And nobody is saying that Luke had good training in IV. He had some, never used the lightsaber, had some more, lost his first fight badly, then had fucking MORE TRAINING! It was a progression, one that went beyond 'running away to turning around to kicking ass over a few minutes'.
We don't know if Rey had training before the start of VII. We should know after the next two movies have come out. If we don't, then that's a legitimate complaint.
>Great. Keep thinking that, based on zero evidence shown and against the evidence presented to you.
Huh. How is Kylo Ren Force manipulating someone into revealing information different than Force manipulating someone to release you?
>>64326347
Yeah she barely got it off the ground and seconds later is flying through canyons and a star destroyer, making loopings and shit while outmaneuvering tie fighters.
>>64326397
Which it didn't.
vader slaughered him and he nearly fell for the dark side.
>>64326472
Hmm, then I guess you're right. She's a pro. Better than Han himself with his own ship. The Force was on her side
>>64317900
That he wants to get laid REALLY badly
>>64326347
>My initial argument is the fact that people wanted a whole trilogy to be explained in one movie.
No, your initial argument was that TFA isn't shit because it failed to explain key aspects of it's main characters, despite ANH and literally every good first movie in a series doing just that. There's a difference between a twist and just not fucking telling a story.
>My counter is that she barely got it off the ground and barely escaped. I don't know what else to say.
She didn't 'barely escape' though; she beat the tar out of the Imperial fighters chasing her with minimal damage to the Falcon. It would be one thing if she did something clever like parking in the wreckage of the Star Destroyer (the movie loves ripping off past Star Wars, why not the asteroid belt scene). But she killed at least two TIEs, undermanned and with no experience.
>>64326397
>All he could've done was the basic training exercise Obi-Wan taught him in IV and that wouldn't have been enough to turn him into a Jedi knight.
Good thing he's not a Jedi, then, as confirmed by Yoda. He uses the force to pull his lightsaber towards him, then he gets the shit kicked out of him by Vader and gets rescued by Leia (which may have been him using the Force to call her, or her using the Force to find him). He's not a Jedi, and lacks the skills to be one.
>>64326451
>From what I remember, Kylo was caught off guard by her sudden ability to meet him on his level.
>Also, now I'm confused. One moment you were arguing that he was dominating and the next that he wasn't.
No, I never said that Ren wasn't dominating. I said that he should have been dominating, as he was when he kicked Finn's ass, but he completely failed to showcase that skill against Rey. I don't remember if he even got close to scratching her, which is apparently a thing lightsabers do now.
Also, stop saying, 'Maybe she was trained before the movie!' It's against everything the movie has shown, and is baseless speculation.
>>64326451
>We don't know if Rey had training before the start of VII. We should know after the next two movies have come out. If we don't, then that's a legitimate complaint.
No, it's a legitimate complaint right now, with TFA. When they give you one story, and it has obvious flaws in logic, you don't say, "Maybe the next one will retcon it!" Even if Luke is her father (a big if) he abandoned her when she was like 5. Did Luke bring back the youngling program, and somehow teach his daughter all of this that she then forgot entirely and never practised for 20 years, before suddenly becoming an expert again in her adult body?
>Huh. How is Kylo Ren Force manipulating someone into revealing information different than Force manipulating someone to release you?
Aside from being visibly different? We can't see the Force, only the way people look when they use it and the way it changes the world. We don't see Rey doing anything like what Ren was doing, in action, intent, or consequence, but it's a hell of a lot like what Obi-Wan did, because that's all the audience can be expected to associate with the good guys. Also, Ren is clearly an old hand at this, as evidenced by the previous interrogation and his dialogue. Rey went from 'learning mind control was a thing' to 'mind controlling someone easily (no, three attempts over 20 seconds does not count as 'difficult'), including tacking on commands for comedic effect.'
>>64326451
>We don't know if Rey had training before the start of VII
>we see a flashback where she sees her parents flying away and she's a toddler
Yeah, I'm sure at the age of 4 with at most a year of training Luke was able to teach her all sorts of advanced Force abilities.
>amnesia
You sequel defenders are really running yourselves thin. And the movie has barely been out 2 weeks. Why should we think that anything is going to be explained in the next movie when nothing was explained in this one?
>>64321750
>>64324416
She's Luke & Leia's Daughter.
>>64317900
That he is a 40 year old virgin
>>64326653
>No, your initial argument was that TFA isn't shit because it failed to explain key aspects of it's main characters, despite ANH and literally every good first movie in a series doing just that. There's a difference between a twist and just not fucking telling a story.
Actually, I was wrong. My initial point was about Rey being a "Mary Sue".
My larger point is that IV-VI were so visionary and ground-breaking that we forgive their (many) flaws. The characters in IV-VI are thin and speak subtext constantly. "Take care of yourself, Han. I guess that's what you're best at".
And now that we've had 30 years to examine and ponder and make excuses for them. Which they deserve, because they're great. But you can't argue that Luke is some amazing 3-dimensional fully-fleshed out character after IV. Because he isn't. And I've certainly never heard anyone-- in the thousands of conversations I've had about IV-- say that he learned too much too quickly.
So when people say that about Rey, who I do believe is a better character with a higher ceiling than Luke, with a better actor (no offense Mark) playing her, it smacks to me of (a) grading Luke and all of IV on a crazy nostalgic curve, and (b) a little bit of misogyny.
>>64326653
>>64327067
(cont).
Luke picks up a lightsaber, hears about the Force and 26 minutes later he is angry that Han doesn't believe in it. He is angry that Han doesn't believe in something he just found out about 26 minutes earlier. No one bates an eye at that.
Rey has been looking after herself on a miserable planet for years and has become good at a lot of things, just like (more so than?) Luke. Then a dark Jedi enters her brain and messes around and something Awakens. Then she's better at stuff, just like (more so than?) Luke.
There are issues reasonable people can take with the storytelling of VII, which I have some. But "Rey is too good at things is dumb. Especially based on how good other people are at things in previous movies. And her flaws haven't fully emerged as storytelling devices, they are present, already: reluctance to leave home, clinging to the past, unwillingness to be part of something larger.
If IV came out now it would be torn apart, like this movie is.
VII is a great movie and being nitpicked to death.
>>64326799
>No, it's a legitimate complaint right now, with TFA
Which is a dumb complaint when we haven't seen the rest of the movies.
>Aside from being visibly different? We can't see the Force, only the way people look when they use it and the way it changes the world. We don't see Rey doing anything like what Ren was doing, in action, intent, or consequence, but it's a hell of a lot like what Obi-Wan did, because that's all the audience can be expected to associate with the good guys. Also, Ren is clearly an old hand at this, as evidenced by the previous interrogation and his dialogue. Rey went from 'learning mind control was a thing' to 'mind controlling someone easily (no, three attempts over 20 seconds does not count as 'difficult'), including tacking on commands for comedic effect.'
And you said I was reaching.
>>64326959
Feminists are shit tier arguers. Their every response is just a variation of either le current year or are an indignant "REALLY!?"
>>64320812
Just a peacocking alpha male
>>64327067
>>64327098
We've been over so much of the stuff you are talking about. It's like you didn't actually read the things that were said to you, you just insist that it's nostalgia goggles and misogyny that makes people think Rey is a shitty character.
The OT had a lot of problems, and you'll find no one saying honestly that Lucas is a master of dialogue. However, those clunky words are put into a working plot, where they crudely but accurately cover everything that we need to know. We don't sit around saying, "How does Luke know how to fly and shoot?" because the movies says how Luke knows how to fly and shoot. It's kinda sloppy, but it's there.
>>64327098
>But "Rey is too good at things is dumb. Especially based on how good other people are at things in previous movies.
The thing was that people in the other movies weren't good at everything. I can't think of an actual situation where she was presented with a challenge. Not her 'flaws', but something that she just couldn't do. She can do every Force trick in the book, she's a great pilot and engineer, she resists interrogation easily, all just because that's what the storytellers thought should happen. I have no problem with the movie saying, "she works with junk, so she's good at fixing shit." But she's not just good at that, she's competent at everything. She has no blind spots in her knowledge or skills, no weaknesses. Even her 'flaws' don't actually get in the way; she still goes along with everything, and when they might have actually had some agency (sending her home after the temple) she was spirited away.
>>64327132
>Which is a dumb complaint when we haven't seen the rest of the movies.
Fuck this answer with a rake. As you have been told, repeatedly, if a story as presented is not good, it is not a good story. The other movies can come out and TFA will still be a shit film, because it was unable to handle basic storytelling.
>>64327434
You bring up my point. Every "critique" that you've presented, and that I've seen posted on /tv/, has an answer or will be (hopefully) answered in the next two.
>Fuck this answer with a rake. As you have been told, repeatedly, if a story as presented is not good, it is not a good story. The other movies can come out and TFA will still be a shit film, because it was unable to handle basic storytelling.
The movie IS great. It was very fast paced, but it is in no way bad. The problems that you, and the other people replying to me, have and are stating are negligible and do NOT make the movie bad.
Like I said, I never imagined we'd reach the point where JJ Abrams, of all people, was unquestionably subtler and smarter than his detractors, but here we are.
I've said all I can about the things you listed, but I guess we'll just agree to disagree.
>>64327762
The problems stated here are only about how the main character is shitty, not how the whole movie is shitty. That's a different thread, but there are literally a dozen every day, go read a couple. And you are still missing the point that a shit movie will remain shit, even if future movies attempt to unshit the series. If they didn't want this movie to stand on it's own, they shouldn't have made it try.
>>64327916
It wasn't shitty at all. That's /tv/ contrarianism talking. Too predictable.
>>64327425
HAH
>>64327968
So we're not going to talk about the half-assed attempt to add drama and a last action scene by throwing in the not-Death Star in the third act, where the not-Rebels discover and destroy a planet-sized, system destroying weapon in an afternoon, after it failed to do anything of emotional weight or plot importance (you could literally replace that system they blew up with a guy saying, 'If it powers up, it can destroy an entire solar system' and save time and CGI money)? Or the fact that they didn't even have the balls to kill not-Tarkin, but instead literally every named character other than Han and Sargeant Spins walks away to be in the next movie, robbing even that victory of weight?
I love how all your responses are either things you made up entirely in your own head about how the next movies will fix everything, or attempted putdowns like 'contrarian' instead of actually thinking about the film for 5 minutes.
>>64328211
On a surface level, the movies are just similar. But they are completely different movies.
Disney played it safe, sure, but it was smart to not alienate the general audience.
Didn't bother me.
I've only used contrarian once. And a majority of the things I've said are in the movie and can be analyzed.
>Max "Help, I can't" Landis! says he quit Hollywood
>appears on various podcasts endlessly
>>64328459
>a majority of the things I've said are in the movie and can be analyzed.
Let's do that, then.
>>64323777
>draws a fallacious comparison between Luke arguing with Han, a guy he doesn't like, about a philosophical concept, with Rey being good at everything.
>>64324086
>Mentions that the movie does not have things in it so it can't be analysed fairly
>>64324280
>headcanon about Rey being a super sekret knight brainwashed and dumped there, and guesswork that she may have worked on the Falcon
>>64324604
>some stretching based on things that happened in the movie, but by and large trying to ground arguments in scenes (though the first of many times you conflate 'girl sitting around thinking about her missing family' with 'master of meditation')
>>64325149
>invented backstory argument, argument that she wasn't a great pilot because she had trouble taking off
>>64325501
>invented backstory for Ren ignoring his shown history
>>64325757
>repeated arguments about flight skills ignoring what was pointed out about scenes of her flying, hoping that repeating 'she's not masterful' will carry the day, more invented backstory
>>64325905
>invented backstory, muh future movies, inventing things about the Force based on 'I think'
>>64326347
>speculation is OK because the movie won't say anything
>>64326451
>saying Ren was caught off guard (accurate, missing the point of the argument), headcanon
Did I miss you actually talking about anything shown in TFA?
>>64328907
You're right. I guess I didn't understand that movie and am using "headcanon" and speculating on things that aren't certain.
>>64329136
Sarcasm isn't attractive on anyone, anon. You do realise how many of your answers were just, "Maybe they'll explain it later, even though they explained it now but what's presented doesn't fit together," right?
>>64329256
Never fucking reply to me again unless you're contributing to the thread.
>>64329256
And every complaint that you've brought up isn't a movie ruiner.
The movie was great and there is nothing wrong with saying that we'll get more answers to questions we have in the next to. If you didn't have any questions there would be no excitement in watching the next to.
>>64329353
two*
>>64317900
He is a queer. He even tried to hook up with aids moby
>ITT: WHY COULD HARRY POTTER TALK TO THE SNAKE IN THE FIRST MOVIE WITHOUT TRAINING
answer: because it's fucking magic you retards
>>64329353
>And every complaint that you've brought up isn't a movie ruiner.
You want those, go to >>64322395 as directed earlier.
And there's a difference between something raising questions, and something having bad explanations. We have actual questions not related to the shit parts of the movie: What is Snoke, and where did he come from? What happened at the temple that made Ren flip out? Where is Rey's family, and why did they ditch her?
However, there are also shit questions related to flaws in the movie, like: Why does Rey's backstory not account at all for her skills, and why is amnesia and brainwashing the only solution that seems to work? Why does she not have any actual flaws or failures, instead able to do everything as required with no training or reason to have said training off-screen, or even things she explicitly doesn't know how to do but is somehow great at? Why does Finn rebel because he can't stand fighting after seeing his friend die, only to massacre literally dozens of his former comrades after a few minutes? Why does Leia not hug Chewie, but instead some near-total stranger, after Han died?
>>64329619
>We
>>64317900
It means Max Landis is the hero /tv/ needs, but not the one it deserves.
>>64329619
>Why does Rey's backstory not account at all for her skills, and why is amnesia and brainwashing the only solution that seems to work?
We know Rey was left on a planet and is waiting for someone to come back for her. We don't get her whole backstory because it's obviously going to be important to the overall story of the trilogy
>Why does she not have any actual flaws or failures
Already gave you an answer to this, which was, reluctance to leave home, clinging to the past, unwillingness to be part of something larger.
>instead able to do everything as required with no training or reason to have said training off-screen, or even things she explicitly doesn't know how to do but is somehow great at?
We know she is good at hand-to-hand combat. That was shown in the movie.
We know she collects parts from downed ships of multiple variety. This was shown in the movie.
We know she is Force sensitive. This was show in the movie.
She was not good with the lightsaber and was running away from Kylo Ren until she "let the Force flow through her".
We do not know if she has had training or not all we know is that she is in her mid-20s.
>Why does Finn rebel because he can't stand fighting after seeing his friend die, only to massacre literally dozens of his former comrades after a few minutes?
It's been stated that Finn was captured and forced to join. He's been working in sanitation until the very start of the movie. The opening fight was his first ever actual fight. He did not know the horrors he'd witness until he was on the front lines. He did not enjoy it and decided to leave.
>Why does Leia not hug Chewie, but instead some near-total stranger, after Han died?
Chewie was going to check on Finn. It is also not either Leia nor Chewie's style to mourn. Leia went to hug Rey instead because, which I'm inferring, she is related to her.
Anything else?
>>64330014
>>Why does she not have any actual flaws or failures
>Already gave you an answer to this, which was, reluctance to leave home, clinging to the past, unwillingness to be part of something larger.
Already gave you the answer to that, which is, 'When your flaws are informed through dialogue but aren't actually present in the movie in the slightest, and when none of your flaws actually relate at all to an inability to do anything, they aren't real flaws.'
>We do not know if she has had training or not all we know is that she is in her mid-20s.
No, we know. We know because they told us that she hasn't had any training, that she's been on the planet for her entire life, and the 'false history' headcanon is literally just bullshit you made up because you can't accept that the movie doesn't show this. It will literally take the movie rewriting her entire backstory to make your theory work.
>It's been stated that Finn was captured and forced to join. He's been working in sanitation until the very start of the movie. The opening fight was his first ever actual fight. He did not know the horrors he'd witness until he was on the front lines. He did not enjoy it and decided to leave.
He was raised from birth to be a cog in the First Order war machine, though why they use that investment for a janitor is beyond me. Even if he somehow maintained a conscience and regular morality when he had not been exposed to that at all, it still doesn't explain why he killed all his buddies. Literally the first and only person he mourns is a fellow trooper, but 3 minutes after deciding to leave he was blasting them with a cannon for having the gall to be in the dock. I could actually respect the pacifist angle and inbuilt morality if they stood by it instead of backpedaling immediately.
>>64329619
>We have actual questions not related to the shit parts of the movie
huh. How do any of those questions make VII a bad story?
>>64330014
>>Why does Leia not hug Chewie, but instead some near-total stranger, after Han died?
>Chewie was going to check on Finn. It is also not either Leia nor Chewie's style to mourn. Leia went to hug Rey instead because, which I'm inferring, she is related to her.
Actually, it is in character for both of them to mourn his death, because we see them mourn his loss to Boba in Episode V. So that's some horseshit. Also, massive leaps assuming Chewie was checking on Finn, or Leia was related to Rey.
>>64330229
Are you actually retarded? Those are the not-shit questions relating to the not-shit parts of the movie. They are, by definition, the parts that are not bad story. The shit questions relating to the shit parts of the movie, which you can hear more about in >>64329673, are what makes the movie shit. 30 bad apples spoiling the barrel and all that.
>>64330226
>Already gave you the answer to that, which is, 'When your flaws are informed through dialogue but aren't actually present in the movie in the slightest, and when none of your flaws actually relate at all to an inability to do anything, they aren't real flaws.'
They were present but were shown in subtle ways. More subtle than other Star Wars films. Watch the movie again. They are there.
>No, we know. We know because they told us that she hasn't had any training, that she's been on the planet for her entire life, and the 'false history' headcanon is literally just bullshit you made up because you can't accept that the movie doesn't show this. It will literally take the movie rewriting her entire backstory to make your theory work.
What is an unreliable narrator? I know you hate the theory but we cannot say if she has or has not had her memory wiped to protect her from Kylo Ren hunting Luke.
>He was raised from birth to be a cog in the First Order war machine, though why they use that investment for a janitor is beyond me. Even if he somehow maintained a conscience and regular morality when he had not been exposed to that at all, it still doesn't explain why he killed all his buddies. Literally the first and only person he mourns is a fellow trooper, but 3 minutes after deciding to leave he was blasting them with a cannon for having the gall to be in the dock. I could actually respect the pacifist angle and inbuilt morality if they stood by it instead of backpedaling immediately.
Incorrect. According to Wookipedia, "The boy who would become Finn was taken as a child from his family to serve the First Order."
Finn also said this to Rey in the movie.
Finn killed his "buddies" because they were shooting at him and Poe. He never planned to hurt anyone until Poe and himself botched their escape. Was he supposed to let his "buddies", who were most likely in sanitation, kill him by no retaliating?
>>64330316
>Actually, it is in character for both of them to mourn his death, because we see them mourn his loss to Boba in Episode V. So that's some horseshit. Also, massive leaps assuming Chewie was checking on Finn, or Leia was related to Rey.
Leia was shown being affected by Han's death and then immediately got her head back in the game because they still had the Star Killer to destroy. Her and Chewie could mourn off screen.
>>64317900
Lul I got this guy to read a fake TFA draft I wrote in 10 minutes and he said he likes the Rey way more in the draft. MFW
>>64330596
>Leia was shown being affected by Han's death and then immediately got her head back in the game because they still had the Star Killer to destroy. Her and Chewie could mourn off screen.
It's after the not-Death Star was blown up. Her job is done, as is Chewie's, it's why they're back together. There's literally no reason for them not to express emotions like regular people and mourn together.
>>64330560
>They were present but were shown in subtle ways. More subtle than other Star Wars films. Watch the movie again. They are there.
No. I'm not going to pay to watch that movie again, and I don't want to go through a shitty cam-rip looking for these 'subtle ways'. I gave you scads of specific references to back up my arguments, you could have the courtesy to do the same.
>What is an unreliable narrator? I know you hate the theory but we cannot say if she has or has not had her memory wiped to protect her from Kylo Ren hunting Luke.
I hate the theory because there's no evidence for it besides the fact that Rey is a Sue, which is more easily explained by JJ being a shit writer and director.
>>64330560
"The boy who would become Finn was taken as a child from his family to serve the First Order."
Fair point. I didn't catch that he was only a regular child soldier, and not a raised-from-birth child soldier.
>Was he supposed to let his "buddies", who were most likely in sanitation, kill him by no retaliating?
I mean, he could have not shot them, yeah. The guys were using handheld weapons on his big armoured ship. Shoot the stay holding the cable, or blow up some other things to put the fear in them without vaporizing them point-blank. Similarly, he can act like real unwilling combatants and not fight when he has the chance, like hiding while the temple was under attack instead of going head-first into battle, using saber and blaster to slaughter them. At no point did he actually show that he didn't want to kill. He went full Schwarzenegger.
>>64330884
>It's after the not-Death Star was blown up. Her job is done, as is Chewie's, it's why they're back together. There's literally no reason for them not to express emotions like regular people and mourn together.
Like I said, Chewie was following Finn to take care of him like Finn did for him. He could mourn later
>No. I'm not going to pay to watch that movie again, and I don't want to go through a shitty cam-rip looking for these 'subtle ways'. I gave you scads of specific references to back up my arguments, you could have the courtesy to do the same.
lol k
>I hate the theory because there's no evidence for it besides the fact that Rey is a Sue, which is more easily explained by JJ being a shit writer and director.
"The Force works in mysterious ways, it seems. There are times I'm not convinced it doesn't have a sense of humor." ―Kavar
Just because you don't like it does not mean it can't be possible.
>Fair point. I didn't catch that he was only a regular child soldier, and not a raised-from-birth child soldier.
You're right, we have no idea if there were other deserters.
>I mean, he could have not shot them, yeah. The guys were using handheld weapons on his big armoured ship. Shoot the stay holding the cable, or blow up some other things to put the fear in them without vaporizing them point-blank. Similarly, he can act like real unwilling combatants and not fight when he has the chance, like hiding while the temple was under attack instead of going head-first into battle, using saber and blaster to slaughter them. At no point did he actually show that he didn't want to kill. He went full Schwarzenegger.
Don't shoot the people shooting at you? Bold strategy cotton, let's see if it pays off.
They were using handheld weapons and slowing preparing bigger ones before Finn started to shoot.
Again, don't see how these cannot be explained nor how they ruin this movie.
>>64330884
You're now approaching nitpicking territory and it's almost midnight in an hour or so where I am.
Happy New Years. This was fun.
Bravo JJ
>>64318885
Did you ever notice how kids in your school's drama club were usually varying degrees of bisexual when not 90-100 percent gay?
At least some of them grew up to be actors professionally and are in Hollywood.
>Don't shoot the people shooting at you? Bold strategy cotton, let's see if it pays off.
Works great: Go read 'Men Against Fire' about the thousands of 'veterans' who never fired a shot, and the thousands more who fired over the heads of their targets to encourage them to stay in cover without having to kill.
I've got stuff to do, enjoy your shilling. See you next year when you defend VIII.
>>64330660
>if anyone cares
https://twitter.com/Uptomyknees/status/680596830330073088
>>64331367
>See you next year when you defend VIII.
I'll defend Rogue One first, bb
>>64322158
>Is there anything wrong in feminism, feminism in this instance being Men and women should be equal?
yes: women and men are not equal. all attempts to render them such are misguided and disastrous.
>maybe the sequels will explain all these plotholes so you can't count them as flaws
>maybe the narrator was unreliable so you can't count on her shown backstory
>maybe the force did it, I don't need to explain shit, cheap plot device magically solves everything
???
I guess no movie has plotholes since you can just say that the sequels could explain them.
>>64325582
>movie 1 of 3
I hope they never answer it and have everyone talk about how amazing she is.
>>64331103
>Kavar
who da fuk
>>64321917
>>64325821
>>64327425
He tweeted months ago that if either of his TV shows were greenlit by 2016, he'd dye his hair blonde. If both, rainbow.
Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency (adaptation of Douglas Adams' work), can't remember the other one.
>>64331932
>they didn't answer every thing in movie 1 of 3 so it must be terrible
Do you shitposters people listen to yourselves?
The only good complaints I've seen are
-Phasma's involvement
-a little bit too much reliance on nostalgia from the original trilogy
-pacing
-poor CGI and sound design
-aliens were subpar
Most of the others can be or are explained by the movie. You have to pay attention because it's not revealed in a hand holding way.
"Son I'm disappointed, clearly raising you was the worst mistake I've made in my life"
He meant he has no testicles.
>>64317900
He's a massive faggot. But he's still right that TFA sucks. Not mutually exclusive.
>he likes professional wrestling
haha
