ok so with this mary sue meme, can we all agree that luke was too?
>came from nowhere
>first X-Wing ride
>destroys death star while being chase by a true sith and good pilot
I think luke fits on the mary sue meme more than rey tbqh
>>63830390
>mary sue meme
you need to understand the difference between memes and truth senpai
>>63830463
rey being mary sue is a meme
>>63830390
Luke started off by doing very basic things. He was a good pilot because that was part of his backstory; the reason he made the shot during that fight in the trenches was because he used the force while targeting. Also, he was only deflecting shots with his lightsaber before, which we watched him being taught by Obiwan.
In contrast, Daisy Ridley, on top of being a good warrior and good pilot, somehow managed to perform a jedi mind trick WITH NO PREVIOUS TRAINING. She also sliced up a dark jedi, even though Luke's duel with Vader only happened in Empire, where his hand got cucked by Vader. Luke was cucked for a long time before becoming decent with the force, and even in ROTJ he wasn't all that great.
>>63830390
You forgot to mention that luke was the last person old ben considered a good friend so he had the temperorary buff of +50 to all stats.
>>63830390
>came from nowhere
>first X-Wing ride
These are my main problems with anh. Why would they let a literally nobody join the fight?
>destroys death star while being chase by a true sith and good pilot
Luke destroyed the death star because he was powerful with the force, being the son of a man conceived by the force. Also he had han solo come in to help.
>>63830390
He wasn't. Luke was pretty flawed.
I don't think Rey is either btw
>>63830609
>These are my main problems with anh. Why would they let a literally nobody join the fight?
He saved the princess.
>>63830564
She obviously has previous training.
>>63830390
>can we all agree
You have no idea where you are, do you?
>>63830609
>Why would they let a literally nobody join the fight?
His buddy, Biggs Darklighter, vouched for him.
>>63830390
Name me one thing in which Luke participated and in which he didn't need to be saved or he didn't fuck up.
Now tell me about Rey's flaws.
strawpoll.me/6306021
>>63830390
Bullshit. Luke got his ass kicked and had to work on himself before he could even get close to Vader.
>>63830564
To be fair, the point they were clearly trying to make is that kylo ren is an angsty, feeble cuck.
>you will never be as powerful as darth vader
just pile of daddy issues and shit self esteem, he wasn't a challenge comparable to Vader.
>>63830564
>no previous training
>>63830686
Tell me about Luke's flaws. Him sometimes needing help or fucking up doesn't constitute flaw, and if it did that's true of Rey as well.
>>63830655
They shouldve said that then, because in the context of the movie rey is a shit Mary sue. And even if she does have previous training, characters that are great at everything are boring no matter the reasoning. a character who can't fail isn't interesting
>>63830717
I blame the writers, really. They couldn't come up with any better motive for the new bad guy than "I WANT TO BE LIKE THE OTHER MOVIES" --literally.
>>63830390
>mfw waifufags NEED to make luke a mary sue JUST to make Ray look a little bit less awful in comparison
>mfw this is the only way they came up with to defend her
>>63830680
>Biggs
The introduction of Biggs went right over my head the first and second time I saw the movie. They really should have done mere of him.
>>63830390
Youre wrong, but how does luke being a shitty character make rey less of a shitty character?
but blowing up the death star is like one of the only times he succeeds. that and swinging with an arm around leia are like the few moments he is successfully heroic
Keep in mind vader would've toasted his ass had han not saved him during the trench run. whereas rei's successes are pretty much all her, and she has A LOT of successes
>>63830743
1. Your speculation doesn't count as support for your argument.
2. A good movie can stand alone as one, apart from the series. If she was trained by Luke or something, that still doesn't justify her suddenly becoming magical and defeating the bad guys in the first movie with no apparent explanation. Not to mention that if she was trained by Luke, it's STILL fucking shitty writing because unless she shows any reluctance to use her powers for some reason, it's just a deus ex machina that lets her get through any adverse situation. I actually liked when Maz tried to convince her to take the lightsaber and she said "I'm never touching this thing again" or something. Too bad that lasted all of 15 minutes before she started doing jedi mind tricks out of nowhere.
>>63830773
They may as well have said that.
>picks up lightsaber and gets flood of memories
>r2-d2 is triggered by her presence
You'd have to be a pretty thick person not to get it.
>>63830862
rey is more force sensitive than luke
she uses the force the whole movie, that's why she is perfect tbqh
>>63830832
There was a cut scene from earlier in the film, when Biggs says goodbye to Luke and tells him he's off to join the Alliance. It doesn't add much, so i can see why it was cut, but it does help introduce Biggs instead of having him appear out of nowhere in the end.
Yeah, I haven't seen TFA, but Luke is portayed as whiney and ineffectual throughout ANH and Han cucks him with Leia. He's not a Mary Sue, but more an underdog character.
The force in ANH is just a metaphor for having faith in one's self and others. For a Mary Sue character it would be a special snowflake device which grants the person superior powers over others, based on no real hardship or trial.
>>63830769
Are you serious? He's fucking whiny brat who constantly gets himself into trouble. He fucking turned himself to Vader because he was naive enough to believe there was still struggle inside of him.
>>63830390
>inb4 "LUKE TRAINED WITH OBI-WAN AND YODA FOR 20 MINUTES, REY DIDN'T TRAIN WITH ANYONE"
>>63830655
>le its going to be explained in the 17 other disney cash-ins meme
Fuck off.
>>63830862
Oh, here's another thing. When Rey refused to sell the BB-8 and thatbig guysent goons after her, she shouldn't have easily defeated them so that the nog could have helped her. Luke got knocked the fuck out by sand people and needed to be rescued by Obiwan. It's like this movie copied all the memes from ANH, but threw everything else into the trash in order to make for one dimensional boring characters. Mary Sue, comic relief negro, cocky fighter pilot, cute droid, etc.
>>63830832
This, I know tons of people hwo don't know about him yet have seen the movie multiple times.
>>63830769
Not the guy you're replying to, but Luke is whiny & impatient during episodes IV and V. His impatience nearly gets him killed in a duel with Vader.
>talk to yoda for 5 minutes
>gotta save my friends
>manage to hit the most powerful sith lord at full condition
B-But no mary sue
>>63830390
Well Luke wanted to be a pilot before shit went down.
Luke was a whiny bitch that got his ass kicked by Vader
>>63830938
>Luke is portayed as whiney and ineffectual
He saves the day.
> Han cucks him with Leia
I don't see how someone can get cucked with their sister. Yeah, he didn't know it, but still.
>. For a Mary Sue character it would be a special snowflake device which grants the person superior powers over others, based on no real hardship or trial.
So Luke then. All those other pilots without the Force got BTFO pretty quickly, while Luke tapped into the Force and became a hero.
If Luke were a girl in ANH, she wouldn't be a Mary Sue. In fact, feminists might take issue with the fact that she would need help from Han in the end to destroy the death star.
>>63830961
Literally everytime someone mentions Luke's training some autist like you says he did it for like 30 seconds
>>63831048
>if he saves the day he's mary sue
ok
>>63831055
>"Use the force Lucy..."
>>63831048
>I don't see how someone can get cucked with their sister.
Leia wasn't written as his sister until episode 6, dumbass. In episode 5 the kiss wasn't incest because Luke's sister was a completely different character.
>>63831032
Are you implying getting your hand cut off is somehow a victory?
>>63831048
yeah, those other pilots with a lot of previous fights getting rekt, the "hard-worker" comes in and in his FIRST RIDE manage to destroy the most powerful weapon of the empire
top kek
Why people defend Rey and why people do it by attacking Luke?
>>63831090
I didn't say that. I said the guy who saves the day can't be considered ineffectual.
>>63831093
And Luke didn't get cucked in ANH so what difference does it make? By the time Han and Leia were in love Luke was already on another planet training with Yoda.
>>63831164
because they're bandwagoners who probably just saw the OT last week.
>>63830390
Luke got his ass kicked constantly. The only reason he didn't die at the end is because his father saved him.
Kill yourself retard
>>63831164
There are no good supporting arguments to defend Rey, so they have to take Luke down a peg or two to justify their nonsense.
>>63831032
>hit Vader once in the shoulder
>get ass whooped right after
0/10
>>63831180
>didn't get cucked in ANH
I'm just saying he "lost the girl" even though there wasn't much competition. Leia only kissed Luke to make Han mad anyway.
>>63831164
Nobody is attacking Luke. Rey is basically a female version of Luke. People shitting on Rey are only doing it because she's a girl.
>>63831048
>He saves the day.
Let me modify my statement - he is frequently portrayed as whiney and ineffectual.
>I don't see how someone can get cucked with their sister. Yeah, he didn't know it, but still.
That clearly wasn't in the cards then. Luke is just a boy in ANH. He's out of his league and he succeeds in spite of that. A Mary Sue would mature beyond her years and be seen as special by others.
>So Luke then. All those other pilots without the Force got BTFO pretty quickly, while Luke tapped into the Force and became a hero.
Seems your problem isn't with Mary Sues but hero stories in general.
>>63830390
No. Luke fails constantly. He has to be saved by other characters all the time in ANH.
Literally the only thing he's good at in ANH (piloting) is established early in the film.
Throughout ESB we see him struggle to come to terms with his destiny, struggle to master the force, fail and be saved by other characters. At the denouement, he still loses the fight against his father.
In RotJ, we see that he's become more capable and confident with training and experience, but he still makes mistakes. His inability to mind trick Jabba the Hut botches the entire rescue attempt. He ends up having to be saved from danger by Han, R2 and even Darth Vader.
Luke is a character who has an arc across all three films of becoming progressively more capable and confident, yet is still capable of making mistakes, can still be hurt, is still vulnerable, and finds himself in frequent peril.
He's the exact opposite of a Mary-Sue.
>>63831103
>hit and manage to fight more than 2 minutes with the most powerful sith lord. the one who killed a lot of jedi and at full condition
>hit the seriously wounded grandma cutie whose first fight was against a raged ex-trooper
you tell me
>>63831237
This is false.
>>63830769
He is easily dominated by emotions and he is impatient.
>>63831236
That's not a bad thing, though. I always liked that Luke didn't get the girl. Instead he saved the galaxy and began restoring the Jedi Order. A true hero. I hope Rey doesn't get paired with someone eitherunless it's Poe.
>>63831237
this tbqh
>>63831237
>People shitting on Rey are only doing it because she's a girl.
No it's because she kicked Kylo Ren's ass with 0 training.
Although the real reason she does that isn't because she's a girl, it's because every Disney movie these days requires the villain to be a whiny ineffectual loser. Example: Every Marvel movie ever.
>>63830390
So i see that in order to defend this garbage new movie, we are going to start shitting on the old movies and the characters.
Another thing you have to remember is that Rey really believed in the force and what it was capable of. Luke was just an impossible-puss who questioned every single thing that was asked of him regarding the force. She went to it with a more childlike belief that anything was possible, she believed.
>>63831180
>the guy who saves the day can't be considered ineffectual
Why not? He could be ineffective in other things, unlike Rey who was perfect at anything
>>63831308
>That's not a bad thing
No it isn't. However it does prove he's not a Mary Sue, since a Mary Sue has literally everyone fall they are attracted to fall in love with them.
>>63831237
Fuck off back to tumblr or neogaf or fucking faggot.
>>63830463
no pepe is a meme, you are just on denial.
>>63831237
If Rey was a guy, we'd be having the same arguments. Stop trying to defend your waifu.
>>63831252
>Let me modify my statement - he is frequently portrayed as whiney and ineffectual.
When? He saves Leia, evades Stormtroopers, shoots down TIE fighters, and blows up the Death Star.
>That clearly wasn't in the cards then. Luke is just a boy in ANH.
And Leia didn't pick Han over Luke in ANH.
>Seems your problem isn't with Mary Sues but hero stories in general.
I have no problem with that. I'm just pointing out the flaws in your argument. A rookie Luke outperformed veteran pilots simply because he had a special gift no one else had.
>>63831335
>Why is she so good at everything she does?
>She just believes
Holy Shit
>>63831335
Nah, it looked like she rejected it entirely when she ran away from Luke's saber.
That's why she started using gun, so uncivilized.
You "forgot"
>With the help of Han Solo and Obi Wan
>After training in a space ship and with blasters
>>63831351
Then I guess Rey isn't Mary Sue because nobody fell at her feet.
>>63830906
Also skipping the training of the main character is exactly the same mistake that the prequels made.
>>63831335
LISTEN AND BELIEVE
>>63830390
>son of the best pilot in the galaxy
>trained fighter pilot
>trained extensively in a ship targeting small objects (wamprats)
>was saved at the last minute from vader by a surprise attack from han solo
>>63831398
Free your mind
>>63831335
>she believes in the force
>she refused to do the eye closing thing until the very end
Also >>63831398
>>63831428
She never expressed attraction to anyone not Oscar Issac, or John Boyega, or anyone.
Luke was all "oh wow look how beautiful she is" even in episode 4.
>>63831398
>>63831439
This is what the Force has always been about. ANH literally ends with Luke opening his mind and letting the Force guide him.
>>63830655
She was abandoned at 5 and didn't even know the Jedi were real
>>63831441
>trained fighter pilot
Literally false. Owen didn't let him go to the Academy.
>>63831471
If they're going with that angle, then I'll just forget SW ever existed. I'm not even going to bother whining about it.
>>63831428
Finn did.
Han Solo and Chewie liked her instantly
>>63830564
>where his hand got cucked by Vader
I think we've taken the "cuck" meme a little too far, anon.
>>63830926
>Heard the name Biggs before, but assumed it was just some joke
>See these posts, thinking it's some joke excuse
>Look it up
>It's not
What the fuck man, how did this go over my head?
>>63831494
>Implying he wasn't snitching to fly with Wedge and Biggs when he was a teen
Jesus Christ, were you not a teen in Tattoine?
>>63830390
>and good pilot
The best star pilot i have ever seen
and he was a good friend
the ENTIRE POINT of the force is that it can make ordinary people do great things
faggots are so used to the Force being midichloarian inherited powerlevels that they totally forgot that
>>63831380
>When?
Did you not see the first act of the movie? Luke is a whiny teen who complains constantly to his uncle Owen. Then he's almost killed by Tusken Raiders, then almost roasted by Stormtroopers, and then almost killed again at the Mos Eisley Cantina. Obi Wan had to save him twice.
He starts there, and thanks to his journey and the things he learned throughout the movie, becomes the hero of the Alliance. That is the basic hero story, just told in space.
Rey starts off kicking ass, and by the end, kicks more ass. If you can't see the difference, then that's on you.
>>63831505
It was too far 4 months ago.
>>63831503
She's like the first woman Finn saw, of course he liked her.
>Han Solo and Chewie liked her instantly
Yeah, because she knew her stuff. Also,Han knew she was Luke's daughter.
>>63831380
Well the difference is that Obi-wan had introduced him to the force, and he was also inspired by ghost Obi-wan at the end of the movie. He then gets rescued from Vader by Han before he fires his torpedos.
The difference is that this was set up earlier in the movie. Meanwhile Rey is doing jedi mind tricks and able to move things with the force and gets herself out of bad situations with no help and no prior setup other than "Well, they did it in the other star wars movies," which is lazy, shitty writing.
>>63831548
The example of Force helping people achieve greatness was in New Hope.
Force Awakens literally had midichlorian bullshit. She has more Force ergo she out Power Leveled Kylo Ren.
>>63831580
>she knew her stuff
yeah, that totally explains it
>>63831548
Kylo Ren was outskilled by her and trained all his life to use the force.
>>63831570
Rey starts off kicking ass because she spent the majority of her like living alone on a shithole planet, while Luke grew up as farmer and had a family that looked after him.
>>63831580
Where does this "Luke's daughter" meme come from, anyway? Who did Luke fuck to create her? Or was it an immaculate conception like Vader?
>>63831627
So if I live alone in the desert for a few years, I'll be able to beat a US marine in unarmed combat, that what you're saying?
>>63831641
are you suggesting the force impregnated luke
>>63831665
If you live in a desert full of dangerous aliens and have the Force you might. Kylo was pretty fucked up when she beat him, anyway.
>>63831641
>That lightsaber belonged to Luke Skywalker and his father before him. It's calling to you.
That line wasn't exactly subtle. Neither is her having memories of Luke's hiding place.
Rey screws up. Crashing the Falcon around when escaping, messing with the wrong doors on Han's Freighter, running away and putting her friends in danger, fails at force mind control the first couple times, etc.
Pretty much everything she does she fails at a few times before she finally gets it to work.
>>63831684
Junior-style
B R A V O A B R A M S
R
A
V
O
>>63831665
What makes you so sure all planets in Star Wars have the same gravity?
Rey could be super strong in comparison to Darth Lanky Git Crybaby.
>>63831697
>full of dangerous aliens
Overstating it by a lot. It has a few dangerous aliens, maybe.
Also even if it does, it doesn't fucking matter because that has fuck all to do with teaching you to use the force and fighting fucking force users.
She is Luke's clone, trying to recreate Darth Vader
>>63831697
Oh right, the Force, the thing she learned about halfway into the movie, and can suddenly master it by the end.
Oh right, there must be an explanation for that, which they will address in two years.
You realize how bad that sounds?
>>63831749
We can joke about it all we want, but sadly, you and I both know Abrams doesn't have the balls to do something as unexpected and bizarre.
>>63831580
The only other human besides Han Solo she ever met is Finn, and he literally fell for her at first sight.
It counts, and even if it doesn't, there's no other character to pair her with
>>63831742
Don't forget releasing those monsters on Han's ship.
>>63831641
Rey isn't Luke's daughter, for fuck's sake
the entire point of the duality between her and Kylo Ren is that he's a guy who inherited his ties to the Force and has the birthright to be powerful but he keeps fucking up because he's a weak person. Rey is just a random scavenger but has the ability to be great because she's powerful with the Force.
I don't get why people don't understand this. For rey to be HURR DURR LUKE'S DAUGHTER would ruin that
>>63831335
>Another thing you have to remember is that Rey really believed in the force and what it was capable of.
In the new star wars the force is feminism
>it's a "reddit SJWs whiteknighting Rey" thread
>>63831764
>>63831802
You guys know Force sensitives still tap into it even without training or knowing about it, right? Like Anakin in Episode I. Rey clearly had training with melee weapons too, she wasn't a scrub like Luke was in ANH.
What are the chance of pulling a Revan on her?
>>63831434
Well, at least in the prequels, its pretty obvious that he gets trained in the interim between the TPM and AotC, and they explain that Anakin is Obi-wan's Padawan, Obi-wan gets permission from jedi council to train him At no point are you thinking "How the fuck is Anakin so good with the force" when you're told that he's going to the jedi academy after TPM.
In Rey's case, its literally she's abandoned on a desert planet, so we have all these bullshit excuses like "Rey is Luke's daughter and was trained but had her mind wiped and abandoned on a shithole because Luke was sad" which is the dumbest thing ever. So Luke is a fucking deadbeat dad that abondoned a little girl? He had no love interest in the OT.
>>63831858
So fucking what? Anakin got his ass kicked multiple times and lost his arm, and he's one of the most powerful force users ever and had been training for years by that point.
>>63831824
>I don't get why people don't understand this
it's just people trying to rationalize an awful movie
>>63831742
>Crashing the Falcon around when escaping
She escaped
>messing with the wrong doors on Han's Freighter
It saved Han. Meaning that when she fucks up she doesn't.
> running away and putting her friends in danger
When she was sure Finn dumped her like her parents.
>fails at force mind control the first couple times
Luke never pulled the ship out of swamps. I am not comparing, I am just giving you example of fucking up since Rey doesn't have any.
>Pretty much everything she does she fails at a few times before she finally gets it to work.
SHE IS NOT ALLOWED TO FUCK UP.
>>63831817
There's Poe, and they really don't need to pair her with anyone. Luke worked out fine without a love interest.
>>63831833
More like: it's a waifufag, delusional star wars fans, people who were banned from neogaf and reddit faggots trying to defend this garbage thread.
>>63831824
I get what you are saying, but this is gonna happen wethever you like it or not, it's heavily implied
>>63831824
>I don't get why people don't understand this. For rey to be HURR DURR LUKE'S DAUGHTER would ruin that
That's too much for the target audience to swallow. I don't think she's Luke's daughter, though.
She is probably Ren's sister (it's like poetry, they rhyme, etc, etc...) who was with Luke until Ren turned to the dork side, at which point Luke dumped her on Jakku. I am only saying that because it doesn't make any sense for her to be "Luke's daughter," as Luke does not have any sex.
>>63831893
The point is being so strong in the Force means she's always going to be above average in pretty much everything. It's just how it works. Anakin as a 9-year-old was a better pilot than all of the Naboo air force.
>>63831380
I'm starting to think this is becoming an argument for the sake of arguing, but I suppose that's par for the course around here.
>When? He saves Leia, evades Stormtroopers, shoots down TIE fighters, and blows up the Death Star.
He does a lot of complaining on Tatooine, about being stuck on the planet doing farmwork. And when he is given a chance to pursue adventure with Obi Wan, he changes his mind and cites his obligations to his uncle. He does this because he's afraid of taking a chance on himself. He lacks faith in himself. Also, those sand raiders would have fucked his ass if Ben hadn't saved him.
I mean, I could go through the entire film and provide you with examples like this, but I'd rather not waste my time.
>And Leia didn't pick Han over Luke in ANH.
True, but Han knows he can get with her and pokes fun at Luke about it. It's kind of clear Leia is going to be attracted to Han, not Luke.
>I have no problem with that. I'm just pointing out the flaws in your argument.
And I'll point out your flaws.
>A rookie Luke outperformed veteran pilots simply because he had a special gift no one else had.
Again, hero stories tend to show bias to the hero. This isn't a Cormac McCarthy novel. Mary Sue stories are hero stories as well, but a lesser, more particular brand of hero story.
Ultimately Luke overcomes challenges he's faced with through teamwork and maturing (what they call a character arc), not based on his own exceptionalism. Even if the deck is stacked in his favor a bit, he still has to earn it.
>>63831380
>A rookie Luke outperformed veteran pilots simply because he had a special gift no one else had.
Luke is definitely no Wedge. Wedge is the top fighter pilot.
>>63831824
She has a mysterious origin. She has "DESTINY" written all over her.
>>63830390
Been saying this in every Mary Sue thread I can find, OP.
Don't bother. These retards can't pay attention to the details that explain why Rey was such a proficient force user. They're too stupid to understand a kids movie.
I don't understand why people complain more about Luke being able to fire a blaster down a hole than they complain about a damsel in distress, a boy, a metrosexual and a giant walking dog could handle hundreds of soldiers while INSIDE the death star. ANH and RotJ are just plain silly movies considering the ridiculous situations the characters are able to escape
So do we just find it easier to nitpick certain things than talk about stuff we liked? The car ride home from the theater with my friends was the exact same way even though we all loved the movie, so I'm genuinely curious.
Reading this thread it feels like /tv/ really did not like the movie, is this going to be another Drive, Avatar, Jurrassic World type of thing on /tv/?
I understand the nitpicks. But I had a fucking blast. And it was a dream come true to be watching a brand new Star Wars movie.
So, what were actual opinions around here? Love? Hate? Disappointment?
>>63831968
Above average is massively understating it. She succeeds at everything she does. Anakin ALWAYS had flaws and failures, it's fucking day and night. You can't just rationalize every single fucking thing away with "muh force".
>>63831922
She met Poe? Until the very end I guess, I don't even remember.
But yeah, hopefully she is not going to have a love interest.
>>63830564
All you guys preferred when the Force was a magical, mysthical thing instead of scientific and midichlorians, now you got it. Everything Rey was capable of was because of the Force. So basically, IT'S THE FORCE I DON'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN SHIT
>>63831858
Is anakin moving shit with the force and doing mind tricks on people in 1?
>>63832053
Why the fuck are you asking in this thread?
LEAVE
>>63832028
Go back to reddit if you can't be bothered to even read the thread to find out why you are wrong
or just watch the OT to find out why
>>63831969
>he changes his mind and cites his obligations to his uncle. He does this because he's afraid of taking a chance on himself. He lacks faith in himself
No, he does this because he loves his aunt and uncle and can't just turn his back on them to go on a wacky adventure with a strange old man.
>True, but Han knows he can get with her and pokes fun at Luke about it. It's kind of clear Leia is going to be attracted to Han, not Luke.
Han doesn't know anything, he's just cocky as hell. Leia showed no bias towards either in ANH.
>Ultimately Luke overcomes challenges he's faced with through teamwork and maturing (what they call a character arc), not based on his own exceptionalism
So did Rey. She was afraid of the Force at first, she only defeated Kylo after she stopped being afraid and let the Force in.
>>63831999
Exactly. Wedge is great, but because he's only human he is still beaten by Luke.
I think part of the training was to live as a scavenger for 20 years in a giant fucking desert.
It wasn't a dessert like for luke who was a whiny little brat ,she had to fight for her life many times.
>>63832053
My friends didn't quite liked it but I did, even though I'm the snobbiest of the group.
>>63832053
the movie is literally a carbon copy of a new hope. it's fucking trash. it has no artistic integrity. this "film" only exists as a way to move star wars moichandise. that's it. it's okay if you liked it, you're a dumb fucking pleb and the target audience. nothing to be ashamed about. just know that objectively the movie is trash and your personally feelings towards it won't change this fact.
>>63830390
Most of the characters in Star Wars fit the definition of Mary Sue, really.
>>63832054
Anakin had plenty of flaws, but none of them were related to his combat ability. He was a great pilot as a child, a better duelist as a Padawan than most masters were, and Force powerhouse despite Obi-Wan trying to slow his power growth.
>>63832070
No, he's only winning races as a child that no human has ever won before.
>>63832197
>implying ANH wasn't originally a Flash Gordon ripoff
>>63832132
>So did Rey
100% false
She didn't do a quarter of the work he did.
>>63830655
They literally make it a point of the movie to highlight she is completely unaware of her abilities.
>>63832226
>none of them were related to his combat ability
He got his ass kicked by Dooku when it was 2v1 and lost his arm, then again by his own teacher even though he was a lot more powerful.
The rest is just conjecture.
>>63832272
Spending 10 minutes training with a drone is hardly that great. Never mind that Rey is likely a survivor of Luke's academy and has some prior training.
>>63831164
Because fanboys can't into reality.
>>63831237
What's it like being an objectively wrong sjw? >>63829446
>>63830717
So? Vader was more a robot than an human. He was a lot weaker than he was at his prime and he still owned Luke.
>>63832319
>Never mind that Rey is likely a survivor of Luke's academy
stop this fan fiction nonsense
>>63832261
hey reddit
>>63832225
>it hurts me that people are this fucking stupid
>>63832319
>10 minutes
Every fucking time you little cuck whiteknights try to minimize it.
The point is that we see Luke being trained over three movies before he can do half the shit Rey is capable on her first try without any training or knowledge.
this is the definition of a marry sue. She's good at everything just because. If you cannot understand that you're a troll or mentally retarded.
I think the bigger issue isn't that Rey is good at everything, it's that she is so much better at everything than Finn. What's the point of Finn, he can't do shit because she's so much better at absolutely everything.
>>63832319
You know how a movie works right? just because we see a small portion of training doesn't mean that that's all he did.
>>63832317
Whoa now. Dooku is one of the most gifted Jedi to ever exist. Dooku is a guy who can go toe to toe with Yoda and not get stomped. He had 50+ years of experience on Anakin and Anakin still did better against him than his master did. It's not like he didn't wreck him in their rematch.
Obi-Wan only won because Anakin's head was a mess after all the shit that went down. Same thing with Rey and Kylo. Obi-Wan and Rey were focused, Anakin and Kylo were not.
>>63832373
>le peepl r stoopid xD
Fuck off redditor
>>63831925
LOL I remember when they tried to sell E2 as a teen romance movie...
>Titanic in space.
>>63832399
no, we don't care about that. Finn is a comic relief. What we care about is Rey's training and what is left for her to grow as a character if she's just good at everything.
>>63831865
I hope they don't, i would hate Disney even more for stealing the twist from glorious Kotor.
>>63832380
>>63832408
The trip was how long? 1-2 hours? Still basically nothing.
>>63832330
>Max Landis
HAHAHAHAHAHA
>>63832380
This
>Luke just trained like three milliseconds and curbstomped Darth Vader
>>63832382
This anon gets it.
>>63832417
>being so fucking dumb to not know what a mary sue is
Back to tumblr u go.
>>63832331
Prime Vader was a lot more powerful than Anakin.
>inb4 EU
This is from Disney's new canon material.
>>63832132
Dude, if you're not willing to concede anything and argue in good faith, then don't expect another response.
>No, he does this because he loves his aunt and uncle and can't just turn his back on them to go on a wacky adventure with a strange old man
That's his rationalization because he's afraid. His relationship with his aunt and uncle is not shown as affectionate. He clearly wants to leave them to pursue his own dreams.
>Han doesn't know anything, he's just cocky as hell.
He's clearly taking the piss at Luke as they're going to Yavin 4, regardless of whether or not he's aware of his chances. And it gets under Luke's skin. That shows him as rather flawed, right? Being thin skinned and jealous are not common traits of Mary Sues.
>Leia showed no bias towards either in ANH.
Girls go for dudes like Han, not Luke.
>So did Rey.
Hi. I haven't seen TFA and never argued Rey was a Mary Sue. I'm just saying that Luke isn't. Thanks.
>She was afraid of the Force at first, she only defeated Kylo after she stopped being afraid and let the Force in.
Sounds rapey.
>>63832455
wtf are you smoking. The only thing he did with the force before training with yoda was target his missiles.
>>63832481
0/10
>>63832481
Most Jedi train for decades and still can't hold a candle to Vader, yet Luke defeated him with minimal training. You can't deny it.
>>63832226
He could just be a good pilot. Doesn't mean he's a force adept. Now if he closed his eyes or something and started using the force during the race, then yeah. Anakin still doesn't ever use the force to move shit around or trick people or fight before he's been trained.
>>63832412
Yes, but the point is not that Anakin lost to someone powerful. The point is that he LOST. More than once in fact, and his emotions falling into disarray also serves to demonstrate that. Rematches are fine as long as the character actually STRUGGLES to succeed and improve himself before he defeats his enemy.
Rey doesn't fail nor struggle. AT ALL. That's the fucking point.
>>63832542
>I haven't seen ESB: the post
Or did you forget deflecting the drone's shots or pulling his lightsaber with the Force?
>>63832445
>we
NEW PC HOLIDAY SPECIAL WHEN
>>63832548
There isn't a single second in either of their fights where Vader is actually trying to win. He's toying with Luke, trying to get into his head, the entire time.
>>63832599
Except Kylo took her out twice before their final confrontation which she only won due to his injuries and mental state. Luke lost less times to Vader than Rey did to Kylo.
>>63832551
Qui-Gon directly says Anakin is that good because the Force let's him see the future and makes his reflexes superhuman.
>>63832612
yeah, but people like you who just argue for the sake of chaos for the lulz are excluded. your opinion literally does not matter, you don't even care about it, what you care about, is the discord you create you merely wanna see how this is going to change things in real life.
>>63832652
Still doesn't compare to neither Anakin nor Luke. Both had to do A LOT more than just "be there".
>>63832606
You mean in the second movie after time had passed and he was probably meditating on his own which granted him the oh so amazing ability of pulling his lightsaber a few feet?
And you're comparing that being able to pull a lightsaber away from a guy trained for years by Luke Skywalker and some sith lord after only just learning that the force exists?
You fanboys live in your own world of delusion.
>>63830390
I just came here to complain about how big of a mary sue Rey was.
>Oh, I may have some relation to Luke?
>Yeah, I can do Jedi mind tricks and use the force n shit, even though I thought the force was fake 24 hours ago! No problem!
What bullshit.
That electric hammer was the coolest part of the whole movie.
Personally, I hate the term mary sue. It's has no fixed definition and I've seen people literally define it as just "Character I dislike." The real thing it actually boils down to is "I don't believe in this character as presented", which can happen for a number of reasons, so it's always more productive to frame the discussion like that instead.
>>63832535
>That's his rationalization because he's afraid. His relationship with his aunt and uncle is not shown as affectionate
This is your interpertation. He clearly cared for them as seen when he rushes back and tries to save them.
>He clearly wants to leave them to pursue his own dreams.
Exactly. Obi-Wan gave him a way out and he still wanted to stay and help his uncle.
>He's clearly taking the piss at Luke as they're going to Yavin 4, regardless of whether or not he's aware of his chances. And it gets under Luke's skin. That shows him as rather flawed, right? Being thin skinned and jealous are not common traits of Mary Sues.
Hardly a flaw. It's just being a teenager.
>Girls go for dudes like Han, not Luke.
Maybe, but Leia didn't choose either in ANH.
>Hi. I haven't seen TFA
Then what are we arguing about? Luke = Rey. They're literally the same, except Rey has some combat/survival experience that Luke didn't have at the start of ANH.
I should note that what really makes the hero's story is the underlying character arc. They overcome their personal flaws, form bonds with others, and grow as people, and their external accomplishments -destroying the death star, fighting their foes- mirror these changes.
So even if a character has had lots of training, there should still be obstacles in some form, belied by a character arc.
>>63832734
The lightsaber literally chose Rey. It's flat out stated by Maz, and Kylo's powers were weakened by his mental state.
>>63832758
I think the mind-reading going both ways imparted a lot of experience/training on rey.
>>63831548
Rey goes Super Jedi Saiyan at the end of the movie. Kylo is going around saying how she is powering up by the minute. That's midichlorian level bullshit.
It'll be retconned in a new movie to show that she was probably trained or something like that because this argument will only get louder over the next few weeks. But this was poor writing. Rian Johnson is more talented that JJ imo so I am sure it'll be better from here but it's going to be a very Marvel/Disney trilogy.
>>63832767
>Maybe, but Leia didn't choose either in ANH.
Han is the most obvious choice though. He's the alpha male and Luke is emasculated and beta (no I don't buy this /pol/ theory but it works in movie terms). This is what makes him a good protagonist.
>>63832821
>The lightsaber literally chose Rey
The straw-grasping has reached new levels of nonsense.
>>63832548
>minimal training
The final step to complete his training in RotJ was defeating Darth Vader, and he did struggled 3 movies just to be able to do that. Rey on the other hand received no training and defeated a guy who spent years mastering the force
>>63832821
10/10 argument faм
>>63832766
Except in this case, it perfectly fitted the character of Rey
>>63832842
Yeah, thats the only thing that sort of makes sense That wasnt a huge amount of time tho. I find it hard to believe all that shit was awoken in her over the span of five minutes, and that she just knew how to do it all instinctively too.
>>63832901
But he was seriously wounded. Let's not forget that. Because that will completely excuse her sudden masterly of a weapon she just began wielding.
>>63832979
She beat Ren at mind reading as well
>>63830390
Luke didn't kill a ton of people, he used the force to make one good trick shot.
Rey is suddenly a lightsaber master, able to use the force effectively, an ace pilot, literally perfect.
>>63832766
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue
Closest thing we've got. I think Rey is a good example of it.
>>63832821
>the lightsaber chose
Gay as fuck, senpai. Are lightsabers magical weapons now? And where did it come from? Luke lost it on Bespin. If they knew it was Luke's /Anakin's, why the fuck is it sitting in some shitty box in a basement on a planet in the middle of fucking nowhere?
>>63832979
>mastery
She wasn't a master with, Kylo was simply not that good, it's his how character that he wants to be Vader but can't cut it. Also, Rey had experience with melee weapons.
the ending would've been better if you switched Rey and Finn and took out Rey's battle,
Rey gets rekt. Finn tries hard to stave away Kylo. Then Poe does a fly by in the last moment to keep away Kylo.
>>63833022
Ace pilot
Master technician
Master force using using force pull and jedi mind trick without any prior training
Master of the lightsaber
Adapt instantly with a blaster
Seriously Rey is as bullshit as bullshit goes.
>>63832923
>>63832886
>>63833035
>The lightsaber of Luke Skywalker and his father before him. It's calling to you.
The crystal inside is connected to the Force and it clearly wanted Rey to use it.
Luke was in no way a mary sue. All he could do in the beginning was pilot a ship well. He's pretty whiny, Tusken Raiders beat the shit out of him, basically he gets by cause he has Obi-Wan looking out for him. He isn't fighting Darth Vader by the end of the movie, and when he finally does in the next movie, he gets completely dominated. He's having fucking debris thrown at his head and loses his god damn hand. He kicks ass on the sail barge, but that's only after he's been through training, and even then, he only had to resort to kicking ass cause he completely botched his rescue mission. He gets by a lot due to getting help. Obi-Wan is always there to help him as a ghost. Yoda helps him get his ship back. Vader saves his life even when he is a full-fledged Jedi. He's not even close to being a Gary Sue in any of the three movies.
>>63833035
It's more like the a part of the force was leftover surrounding the lightsaber.
>>63833035
No she found it, its fine. Don't think too hard about how they just so happened to find it on the first planet they stopped on. Or how they just so happened to run into Han and Chewie five steps off Jakku. Or how they just so happened to be on the exact lot on the exact planet the Millennium Falcon was on. Its fine.
>>63833047
Kylo was stopping beams in mid-air.
He shouldn't fucking lose in a force contest for the anakin/luke's blue lightsaber against Rey.
That scene was bullshit.
>>63833089
But she's a woman, so it's gonna be praised in all media.
>>63832053
It's mediocre. Flawed. But not flawed in an interesting way, flawed in the the sense that's there were too many things that had to be in the movie. The new characters are all poorly written in different ways.
Look the movie has some great exciting parts but then does things that pull me back out. It's just not bad or good. And that is so frustrating to me.
>>63833047
Proficiency with a staff doesn't mean you automatically know how to use a lightsaber, a weapon so rare that only a handful of people have used it in 30 years.
>>63833035
Lightsabers are now like Harry Potter wands now.
ITS 2015 for good's sake. They're not utilitarian weapons anymoroe.
>>63833097
Where is that ever explained?
>>63833147
The funniest thing is that people would have complained as well if Rey was a guy but people will call those who complain about Rey my soggy knees. Fuck 2015.
The amount of b8 in this thread is almost unprecedented.
Is this how SW debates are going to be now?
>>63832758
I don't care if Trey Tor is a meme, he's the best new character.
>>63832053
I think it was mediocre. They tried way to hard to be reminiscent of the old movies, with references and similar plot points. Like seriously, that fucking Death Star 3 literally came out of nowhere without warning, just cus we need a Death Star lol. Hopefully they got that bullshit out of their system so that the next one can be good.
>>63832767
>This is your interpertation. He clearly cared for them as seen when he rushes back and tries to save them.
Caring and having affection for them is different. He cares about them, but he wants to go out on his own. He literally expresses this sentiment earlier in the film a number of times.
Either you're being difficult or nuance isn't your strong suit.
>Exactly. Obi-Wan gave him a way out and he still wanted to stay and help his uncle.
No, he was afraid to actually do something with his life. It's a coming of age story for Christ's sake.
>Hardly a flaw. It's just being a teenager.
Yeah, so flawed. Being immature is a character flaw, and is typical of teenagers. Glad we agree.
>Maybe, but Leia didn't choose either
I conceded that. But like I said, it's kind of the obvious pairing. You're getting caught up in semamtics.
>Then what are we arguing about?
Whether or not Luke is a Mary Sue. I haven't said a thing about Rey.
>Luke = Rey. They're literally the same
So you say. Haven't seen the movie yet and don't particularly care.
>>63833194
If Rey was a guy I'd call him Annie Jr.
>>63830564
>his hand got cucked by vader
holy fucking shit I hate this place
>>63833263
Anakin was a whiny brat as well
>>63833276
go back preping the bull then.
>came from nowhere
Came from the same place as Biggs, and also brought Leia back from the Death Star.
If anything, the rebs should've been at least as confident in him to give him an X-Wing nobody else was using.
>first X-Wing ride
Luke already knew how to fly from his Skyhopper, and was apparently able to sharpshoot womp rats with it. Biggs could've vouched for that.
>destroys death star while being chase by a true sith and good pilot
The trench was tight though, and Vader was picking off Biggs and Wedge one by one before getting to Luke, who would have DIED if Han hadn't bushwhacked Vader at the last second.
>>63833169
Yeah, but its not like Rey said "oh stop at that planet for a minute." It just so happened to be where they were going by coincidence. Its 100% bullshit.
>>63833134
Kylo's training was incomplete. Snoke said it himself.
>>63833159
It's a sword, m8.
>>63830390
>son of Anakin, a great pilot. Plus he had experience flying and shooting targets.
>uses the force to get off one skill shot
>needs to use dark side a little to defeat Vader
>has to travel to some secluded jungle waste planet to get training from a mental old grandmaster who tells him to fuck off because he doesnt have what it takes to succeed at being a jedi
>faces his father in a dream trial, becomes aware that he can easily become corrupted like his father
>struggles to ignite forces powers, even while being trained by the most powerful Jedi Yoda and Obi-wan
>guardians held him back a lot, although this is probably a good thing
>we really only see him use the force after being trained by yoda and obi-wan
>>63833089
>Ace pilot
She knows how to fly, which seems pretty common in the Star Wars universe. The Falcon was repeatedly called an outdated hunk of shit back in the original trilogy; it's probably not all that complex to get a handle on, and she struggles pretty hard until she adjusts to it.
>Master Technician
Her entire job was scavenging tech from crashed ships; of course she's a great technician. She had to know her way around ships inside and out to survive.
>Master force using using force pull and jedi mind trick without any prior training
Alright, the mind trick was a bit of BS, but rank-and-file stormtroopers are pretty easy targets. She's clearly very familiar with the stories of Jedi and the events of the OT, so it's possible she read about how Jedi could perform mind tricks, and had a vague idea of how to do it. The Force Pull's the same way, and a lot easier to buy. Force Pull's are like the first thing you learn how to do with The Force, and she already had a connection with the lightsaber.
>Master of the Lightsaber
She's spent her whole life mastering melee combat on Jakku. Also, she was facing a badly wounded opponent who was under explicit orders NOT to kill or significantly harm her, so it wasn't really a fair fight to begin with.
>Adapt instantly with a blaster
Again, kinda BS, but pretty much EVERYONE in the Star Wars universe seems to be able to just pick up a blaster and outshoot Imperial Marksmen, so fuck it, I'm willing to just roll with it.
>>63833549
>This vague implication completely justifies why she is 100% skilled in a certain aspects
>>63833202
Is that what people are calling shock hammer trooper? Because he was the best, and has the best weapon.
>>63833549
You're grasping at straws like there's no tomorrow right now.
>>63833549
>Master Technician
Relies on lucky button pushes and random parts grabs during that scene with Han and the bounty hunters.
>>63833612
>This one instance where things worked in her favor show that she's already 100% masterful in the act
>>63833549
A fair chunk of this is assumption.
>>63833754
>Beat a trained jedi in mind reading despite 0 knowledge of the force prior to that happening
Lmao it was luck
>>63830686
Rey's flaws:
1. autism
2. autism
3. autism
4. autism
5. turbospaceautism
>>63833836
great shit
le upboat
Whether or not Rey's talents are explained in some way doesn't really matter. A Mary Sue is a protagonist without any real character arc, who achieves without any real test of her character, but instead out of her own exceptionalism. She's mature beyond her years, other characters are her accessories, and she's always smarter than adversaries. Maybe others can add to this defintion, but if this applies to Rey, she is to some degree a Mary Sue.
>>63830390
Luke
>starts off as a whiney kid who is a good pilot because of his expert once with a t-16
>needs Han and ben to help him out with sourcing the trench run and destroying the deathstar
>initially is too over confident and gets his ass kicked by vader in his second movie
>third movie, after months on own (because the empire was building a Death Star 2 and lando has to infiltrate) and training with what yoda taught him, learns using that
Rey: (all in one movie)
>can jedi mindtrick out of nowhere
>beats an injured kylo ren despite having a lot less experience with the force and being younger
>she basically is Han and Luke now
>>63833772
Well they're not going to stop the movie so Rei can give you a fifteen minute exposition dump on her backstory; you've got to extrapolate.
>>63833829
Kylo Ren is honestly kind of shit at being a Sith. Snoke says at the end that he hasn't even finished his training yet. I don't think he's ever tried to read the mind of anyone in tune with the Force; I wouldn't be surprised at all if he's the type who hits the first bit of resistance and goes "Fuck this, I quit; I'm gonna go get Master Snoke!"
>>63833978
And Rey was a fucking utter scrub
>>63833978
He succeeded in reading the mind of Poe you doofus.
>>63833836
Well memed! Keep it up!
>>63833978
Well maybe they should've slowed the move down instead of trucking it along at a mile a minute. I don't feel responsible to fill in the many gaps they left out.
>>63833549
>opponent who was under explicit orders NOT to kill or significantly harm her
Wait what? Snoke ordered this?
>>63830390
Yeah but that doesn't fit /tv/'s agenda or memes so they'll stick with MUH NOSTALGIA NEW EVERYTHING SUX EVEN THE PREQUELS ARE GOOD NOW
>>63834075
he asked to bring her to him after kylo failed to read her mind
>>63833978
>Backstory is now exposition
Are you even trying?
Let's simplify this: what is Rey's character arc?
Luke gets saved by Obi Wan from the Tusken Raiders and in the bar and is saved by R2D2 and Han Solo on the death star
That's just in the first movie
>>63833549
>She knows how to fly, which seems pretty common in the Star Wars universe. The Falcon was repeatedly called an outdated hunk of shit back in the original trilogy; it's probably not all that complex to get a handle on, and she struggles pretty hard until she adjusts to it.
For fucks sake, she does crazier stuff with the millennium falcon than Han and Lando in the OT, and both were supposed to have years of experience piloting that ship.
>Her entire job was scavenging tech from crashed ships; of course she's a great technician. She had to know her way around ships inside and out to survive.
Yeah, anyone working at a scrapyard has as much knowledge as an actual engineer.
>>63834171
Refusing to leave Jakku, to accepting the Force
>>63831032
>most powerful
Also if you think Vader was actually fighting Luke seriously in either movie then you're delusional, in 5 he's trying to incapacitate him and in 6 he's conflicted between Sheev and his son
>>63834171
Well, she was sad and on a desert planet. Then she got off of it. She had some vague flashbacks. Made some implications as to why she was on Jakku. Then she was a jedi.
>>63834238
That's what she does. What's the character arc?
>le Rey is Revan memory wipe
Seee you in 2017, fuckers.
>>63834286
So no character arc?
>>63834171
Living in the past, waiting for an old life that has long since left her behind, to embracing the future and the new life that The Force and her new friends offer her.
>>63830390
excellent pilot and gifted with the force, but it was shown as pathetic and stupid in many circumstances and had to be saved by han.
Compare with rey who was proficient at EVERYTHING and went super jedi saiyan in the first fucking movie with NO TRAINING AT ALL
