>humans are considered one of the weakest races in fantasy games strength wise
>They don't know about how strong human nomad's/tribals were or know about the feats done by body builders
Anyone else sick of seeing this trope in fantasy games? Humans are fuck strong probably one of the strongest on Earth if training is done. Humans can be strong as gorillas if enraged enough to the point where people can flip cars or move boulders.
>Humans are fuck strong
Yeah, but a lot of fantasy races are stronger. HFY somewhere else.
>>47218942
>Humans can be strong as gorillas if enraged enough to the point where people can flip cars or move boulders.
Imagine what a gorilla sufficiently enraged could do.
Also, humans are rarely considered one of the "weakest" races. They're typically depicted as the base standard that the rest use as the measuring point, because they're the race we're most innately familiar with. A human with +0 strength and a Morxie with -2 strength is the same as a human with +2 strength and a Morxie with +0 strength. Don't get hung up on your personal perceptions, and stop thinking that a human should have more impressive feats of strength than a race that's statistically stronger. That don't make sense any which way you cut it.
>>47218942
What? Considering elves, halflings, and gnomes are all weaker, Humans are at the average: I mean, how many races do you know of that can lift a fucking automobile?
>>47218942
>>humans are considered one of the weakest races in fantasy games strength wise
wrong ther eare many weaker ones, Elves, halflings, gnomes, faeries, goblin etc.
>They don't know about how strong human nomad's/tribals were or know about the feats done by body builders
/fit/ please go or we will start posting musclegirl pics again!
>>47218942
Average human, anon. AVERAGE humans.
>>47219100
Elves have no real penalty to strength. They don't really seem weaker than any others.
>>47219086
>>47219100
>elves
>weaker
How dare you.
>>47218942
In AD&D, humans had the highest strength cap of any race. Male humans did, at least. I'd have to double-check but I think female humans had a higher strength cap than the females of most other races.
>>47218942
Are you retarded? Humans being strong doesn't matter if there are races that are objectively stronger. Their strongest specimens will be stronger than the strongest human specimen, most likely.
Also,
>Strong as Gorillas
A gorilla is literally strong enough to bench press a couple of cars, if they'd be so inclined. It's just that they're generally pretty chill.
I have no idea if you're retarded or if it's just a really shitty attempt to start a HFY thread.
A possible reason for this is that for our weight we are laughably weak compared to animals. For example A 90 pound chimp can tear a 200 pound man limb from limb. There are a lot of different theories why, but when it comes right down too it humans lose to pretty much every animal on stregth to weight ratios.
>>47218942
>Humans are fuck strong probably one of the strongest on Earth if training is done.
There's a reason we invented weapons, anon.
>>47219055
If anything, humans should have +2 constitution. In the early ages of humanity, we would chase down our prey for hours upon hours until it gave out, and we would carry that shit back to eat and still have enough strength left to fuck our women.
>>47219197
Because we are smart too? And don't get me started on how beautiful humans are. Jesus, humans sound like Mary Sues of this world.
>>47219242
If you think humans are beautiful you're a pedo.
>>47219266
What did he mean by this?
>>47219212
If anything, they should have +0 constitution, because the human constitution is what we use as the base, regardless of what mental images you jerk off to.
I can only imagine how much you'd masturbate to the idea of a +2 con race chasing down their prey for days.
>>47219266
Wat?
>>47219266
Are you a dog fucker or something? People are bred to fuck more than almost any other animal. Being in heat year round is a huge factor to that.
>>47218942
I guarantee you a gorilla with training would be stronger than a human with training. Gorillas just don't train, because they're gorillas.
>>47219266
Get out you dirty elf.
>>47219100
Is that a Catachan woman?
>>47219372
>Being in heat year round
I don't think I can sigh enough in your direction, but I will try.
*sigh*
>>47219397
You have to be autistic to count the one week every month.
>>47219445
I don't think you know what being in heat means.
In fact, I think your general understanding of human sexuality is extremely limited.
>>47219397
>*actions*
>>47219474
It's better than just sighing at my screen, hoping that it'll transmit through sheer will.
Here, let me see if you receive this one, because I'm sighing pretty hard at how two asterisks are your personal trigger.
>>47219445
Being in heat is different than menstruation anon.
>>47219331
Not the guy your responding too, different guy. All alegations of that guy having a fetish and the bit about fucking aside, he does have a point. We are literally built for endurance, and we will run most species on the planet into the ground. Thats just scientific fact, and I for one would love to see that reflected in a game somehow. Like orcs have higher stregth and elves are more graceful but we will still be going long after they have dropped.
>>47219530
Well, for most girls at least...
>>47219519
There are these fancy new things on imageboards you can use to express the same sentiment.They're called images.
>>47219379
gorrilas can't train, they lack muscle control.
>>47219552
>We are literally built for endurance,
You might be, but here I was, thinking humans should have +4 wisdom and +8 intelligence and... oh wait, that's not how stats work.
Like, do you know how dumb you need to be to suggest that your endurance is what defines humanity?
Literally how low your personal intelligence must be?
>>47219331
But what you're not getting is that enduring long distances is literally why we're built the way we are and look the way we do. It's our natural niche aside from being smart. Why should other species get our niche at no cost? Human+ is lazy.
>>47219621
SOMEBODY IS GETTING A LITTLE NACLLY!
>>47219194
On the technical level, it's because apes, like a lot of other animals not only have muscle cells that are physically larger than ours, they have denser muscles and more muscle mass to weight ratio.
On an evolutionary level, it's because their bodies are developed for physical strength, ours is developed for brains.
The strongest, most dangerous animal is still no match for a few humans with sharpened sticks.
>>47218942
>Humans can be strong as gorillas if
No. No they can't. I'm sick of seeing this meme. The strongest bodybuilders on earth are still nowhere near as strong as gorillas or most large apes, including chimpanzees. It's not even a matter of muscle-mass, their biology is just different.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090330200829.htm
>>47218942
>What is relativism, the thread.
>>47218942
Anon, you should stop taking those silly "Humanity fuck yeah!" copypastas seriously
>>47219669
Great apes are strong when it comes to moving muscles but they can't lift substantially better than humans, they don't have the spinal structure or fine nerve control of humans.
>>47219552
>>47219621
>>47219212
The idea that humans should get +con or whatever because we are endurance hunters is retarded because logically, EVERY intelligent species that is common in fantasy would ALSO be endurance hunters if you look back far enough in their history.
Otherwise why do orcs, dwarves, halfings, and elves stand upright and have knees like ours?
That's like saying we should get + to crafting because we evolved hands with high precision that can make tools, when ALL the other fantasy races have opposable thumbs and 5 fingers too.
>>47218942
I know it's hard to comprehend, but a fantasy world is imaginary. It's thought up by whoever is writing it.
So if I create the magical city of Gainstown, capital of Hugeonia, where everyone but humans is buff as fuck and even the weakest goblin is pumped like a fucking bouncy castle, you better believe it's going to be that way.
>>47219465
Sorry I didn't mean for people to take that at face value, I know the difference between mensural and estrous cycles.
>>47219709
They can't perform a Clean and Jerk with perfect form, but they can still tear your legs off, which in a "survival of the fittest" environment is clearly more useful (unless who's the fittest is decided by a group of Olympic referees)
>>47219621
Im not going to deny we are smart, but oddly enough we can be smart and physically capable, unlike in games the two dont have to mutually exclusive, and evolution likes every advantage you can get. Listen man and a horse compete in a full marathon, guess who wins? The dude. Dont believe me go ahead and look it up, thats jus one example. Basically upright bipedal locomotion, and our ability to sweat and tempature regulate, plus our efficient metabolisms = endurance. True we dont think of it now cause so many of us are couch potatoes, but neolithic humans got buy by running prey down. We arent as fast, no where near as fast, but eventually if we just keep following them there comes a point where they can run no more.
>>47218942
Humans are average because not everyone is born a fucking tribal or a bodybuilder you massive autist.
It might have something to do with Humans being the ones we're most familiar with as such all other humanoid species are designed to be on one extreme or another of a human (our common trait)
>>47219718
Do you become swole from living in Gainstown,, or do you only get swole if you're born there?
>>47219716
That's it's own issue desu and why the standard races are kind of boring. People who include the endurance running thing in some way usually have the other races adapted to something else or an explanation for why they aren't as suited to it. My favorite was the orcs having a porcine origin and they need mud to cool off when it's really hot.
>>47218942
>A thousand humans in six billion can bench press a car after training for years and commiting their lifes to it
WE WUZ KROGANS 'N SHIT, WE'LL RIP AYYLMAO'S HEADS WITH OUR BARE HANDS.
>>47218942
I've never heard this. The trope I see most often is that humans are average across the board, races being + or - in othe regards compared to us. Are you just making shit up?
>>47218942
What about elves? Those effeminate weirdos are weak as shit.
Now get outta here /fit/.
>>47219759
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon
It seems that our top athletes perform pretty much the same to a horse loaded with some added 50kg of rider on top, hardly impressive
>>47219759
There's an actual horse vs human marathon held yearly and the riders always win over the guys on foot.
It's a few miles shorter than an official marathon though, because animal rights fags protested about horses getting exhausted and shit, but it's still 22 miles, compared to 26 for a real marathon.
Horses are, believe or not, pretty darn good at running long distances, because we bred them for it. Before we got involved they were small and shitty (which is why you see chariots before real cavalry, hitching them to carts was just more practical than riding them into battle, before we made them stronk)
>>47219630
Aside from the science behind the "humans are built for endurance" being shoddy at best (one could argue we were more successfully built for foraging), you still seem to fail to understand why flat stats are the way they are.
I want to show you a picture of an elf and an orc, and I want you to tell me how they are built so dramatically differently from the base human running structure. If anything, I can say that the "natural niche" of all the humanoid races is long distance running.
Comparing humans to other real world animals is a weird joke that people like you seem to enjoy, but is especially senseless when you decide to compare atypical humans or humans from the far, far distant past.
I understand humans are great long distance runners. That's meaningless.
>>47219842
>>47219820
Damn you beat me to it.
>>47219716
You have a point, we are all humanoids, and therefore similar, but could not the divergent paths of evolution and environment led to subtle but noticeable differences? Could not say the orcs have selected for stregth over endurance, to a small degree, having evolved in an environment where their endurance was less benificial? I mean im just bull sitting here, but I wouldn't mind seeing humans get a different hat than, we are the everyman and our special thing is that we dont have a thing, so we can be anything. Do we necessarily need a race to be baseline?
>>47219842
>because we bred them for it
Actually we bred them to be big and stronk as fuck, which probably reduced their endurance over their undomesticated ancestors
>>47219869
Yeah, think about Neanderthals. They too walked upright and had five fingers per hand with opposable thumbs, and yet they also had interesting differences.
>>47219869
>but I wouldn't mind seeing humans get a different hat than, we are the everyman and our special thing is that we dont have a thing, so we can be anything.
All you end up doing is redefining humanity, applying a label that you believe is appropriate but that other people are fully within their rights to disagree with.
With humans as the base, we have a common frame of reference. You can say humans are smart and fast, and I can say "Okay, I know how fast and smart humans are because I have encountered a few in my time." The moment you say "Humans are the fast race" is the moment you say "All the other races are just slow" as far as my frame of reference goes.
If you decide to use Fdorks as your baseline, fuck you, I don't know what a Fdork is. It's not until you say "Well, a Fdork is like... half as strong as a human" that I have any idea what the Fdork you are talking about.
>>47219869
>>47219906
The thing is though, that all of the fantasy species are similar enough that having completely different specilizations would be incredibly stupid. If anything, you'd end up with one species who's just better than the others, rather than 5 different ones who's completely balanced but in different ways, if you care that much about "realism" to bring evolution into it to begin with.
Honestly, most shitty D&D style fantasy with an even mix of humans, elves, dwarves, halflings or whatever MUST ignore evolution and go with "the gods did it" or something like that, because the logical outcome of letting species compete and evolve alongside each other would NOT end well for all of them.
We fucked and killed the neanderthals, and now there aren't any left, and weren't even a different species, we were just different breeds!
Now what the fuck do you think cavemen would have done to orcs, who look like monsters and are borderline genetically evil, when we murderfucked our goofy looking cousins?
What do you think the elves would have done to the first humans to come sniffing around their settlements?
No, D&D fantasy needs to leave evolution alone and go with "magic, I don't have to explain shit" otherwise you end up making it dumber than it was to begin with, in an effort to make sense of it.
>>47219979
How I wish I could have a Neanderthal bro.
>>47219128
Go read some Tolkien.
>>47219194
I once heard something about how our muscles were developed for precision rather than brute strength. Not sure how true that was.
>>47220037
You can anon! Through the power of role-playing!
>>47218942
I don't see that trope at all. I see it more as humans are the most spread out, and the most average.
>>47218942
I think the trope isn't that humans are the weakest, but that they are the dumbest. Being short lived means that info gets skewed faster because it changes with each generation that recieves it, so if there was a story told by elves and humans, the human story would be totally different by the time the elf version is being retold to their next generation.
>>47220169
I thought either orcs or goblins were usually considered the dumbest.
>>47219940
People get why humans are the way they are in D&D. They're deliberately going for a different, often more simulationist stylistic choice. Representing human's niches in some way doesn't mean you're not allowed to compare them to everyone else. Those who do this don't have a baseline race as in 10 in all stats. We can turn the argument around and say you know what humans are like so even if the numbers aren't 100% the average you'll have a good idea of how everyone else is compared to humans by virtue of being one. And yes, something like 'other races are slow' is fine. In fact, that's sort of the point, highlighting the things you take for granted as human and making the other races mutually alien to each other.
The problem with this entire fucking thread is that humans are there to give a baseline. A human's 10 STR isn't bad, it's just a benchmark. You know how strong the average modern man is, and can extrapolate how strong a 5 or 15 STR creature should be based on that.
>>47219979
I kinda like the Exile setting's approach -- cat people are basically furred humans and nothing special, but the lizard dudes are straight up better in all ways except for being cold blooded, and humans are rightly scared of them and they do wage some campaigns to murderize all the filthy apes that keep sniffing around, and generally win when the PCs aren't nearby.
>>47220198
Well not dumb as in '2+2 = 5' but dumb as in 'This legend that says our kingdom was ordained by god was actually just elves helping us not die but we forgot that bit'.
>>47220236
The difference between INT and WIS?
>>47220247
Not wis problem. Just short life span and shittone of narcissism.
>>47220207
I'm trying to figure out what the point of your post is.
Most of it doesn't make sense.
>They're deliberately going for a different, often more simulationist stylistic choice.
What.
They're going for the "this is the easiest way to communicate an idea" choice.
>Representing human's niches in some way doesn't mean you're not allowed to compare them to everyone else. Those who do this don't have a baseline race as in 10 in all stats.
What niches, the one's we can argue about until the end of time?
>We can turn the argument around and say you know what humans are like so even if the numbers aren't 100% the average you'll have a good idea of how everyone else is compared to humans by virtue of being one.
I have no idea what you're even trying to say here.
>In fact, that's sort of the point, highlighting the things you take for granted as human and making the other races mutually alien to each other.
So, your point is that you think it's a good idea to try and deliberately make things obtuse and difficult to understand, for no real reason except you think being obtuse is being interesting.
You're like a crystallized example of Failure of Communication.
>>47219212
No, because human stats are baseline. A human with plus 2 con is a human with endurance greater than that of a normal human. That's how stats work. If you really wanted your setting to represent humans being amazing at endurance, then you'd give non humans a minus to con, except for races like dwarves which have superhuman con
>>47220356
>I have no idea what you're even trying to say here
You don't need crunch to make humans the dead average in order to compare other races to humans.
>So, your point is that you think it's a good idea to try and deliberately make things obtuse and difficult to understand, for no real reason except you think being obtuse is being interesting.
How is that difficult to understand and obtuse? You had no problem coming to a quick conclusion like 'other races are slow'.
Humans are not considered "one of the weakest" fantasy races in any setting I've ever heard of. They're tougher than elves, stronger than all the shorties except dwarfs, stronger than all those -2 Strength races. Which fantasy races are you thinking of, OP? Orcs? Because orcs are basically "humans, but stronger and stupid". An orc that is weaker than a human is no longer an orc.
I think this is just a case of the OP being a faggot.
>>47222238
Were Tolkien orcs stronger than Men? I was about to dispute it on account of early orcs being more goblinlike and an allegory for everything that can be wrong with us down to being bow legged untermensch but I think they had tard monkey strength over humans iirc.
>>47220072
>Tolkein elves
>weaker than men
Son I hate to tell you this, but Tolkein elves are literally better than human beings in every discernible way. One time, elves and men interbred really well, and it produced Numenoreans, who were literally the ubermensch race that Aragorn, the lesser ubermensch, is descended from.
>>47222411
Why do you insist on misspelling his name, even when quoting?
>>47222300
I don't think so. I feel like they were generally speaking a little worse at basically everything, but I haven't read any of those books in a long time
>>47218942
An athlete can throw something like a baseball like 90 miles per hour.
A fully grown chimpanzee barely manages 20 miles per hour and is outthrown by little league pitchers.
Incorporate that fact in your fantasy game
>>47222976
Chimps can't rotate their wrists.
>>47218942
>Humans are fuck strong probably one of the strongest on Earth if training is done. Humans can be strong as gorillas if enraged enough to the point where people can flip cars or move boulders.
Imagine if gorillas worked out.
Humans need exceptional circumstances/effort to display exceptional strength. They are proportionally weaker than t
any of the great apes.
>>47222976
Relevant
https://what-if.xkcd.com/44/
>>47223053
Which only proves our superiority.
why do you people always need to feel superior anyways?
can't you just be happy with what you've got?
>>47223235
They are butthurt about things that dont even exist being better than their species at specific things.
Sad really.
Niggers never realize humans are the numbers race. Everywhere you go there are already humans there. Having more guys and being more adaptable is always better than being stronger or faster.
>body builders
THATS A PICTURE OF A WEIGHTLIFTER AND THE PEOPLE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ARE STRONGMEN
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>47218942
Cool, but can they survive decapitation and head transplants?
Didn't think so.
>>47219869
Honestly what my GM ended up doing was making humans the warmongers (and "Orc" was the elvish word for "Man") and gave them a +1 untyped bonus to all attack rolls.
>>47218942
>half starved manlets
>strong
They could be fierce and swarm, but do not attribute that to physical strength or endurance.
>>47223350
100% setting dependent, and probably the most tired and nonsensical trope. Shared by goblins, orcs, etc., at best.
>Let me tell you how I think game mechanics are bullshit by putting all fantasy in a category I made up
>>47218942
>humans are considered one of the weakest races in fantasy games strength wise
We're usually somewhere around the middle? Orcs are stronger, elves are weaker.
>>47219870
as work and pack animals endurance would have been a selected for trait even if unintentionally.
>>47220037
Unless you're affrican. you have neanderthal ancestors, get your ancestor spirit communion going.
>>47219100
>/fit/ pls go or we will start posting musclegirl pics again
D-do you have any muscle MAN pics? (no homo)
>>47219266
Confusedblackman.jaypeg
>>47218942
Nomads and tribals aren't usually all that strong (toughness is another story), and bodybuilder training requires modern technology and knowledge.
>>47226513
body builders aren't examples of peak strength humans either.
>>47226513
what technology is required to lift the heavy thing many times?
>>47218942
No, we are weak as shit. The only things we're good at are precision and throwing things
>>47218942
Humans are by far considered the "average" race. Nothing special; really a +/-0. Let's just compare a human to the races that are considered strong in fantasy:
>Minotaur
>Goliath
>Half-Orc
>Half-Giant
>Half-Ogre
They're races that are, on average AS strong, if not stronger than gorillas.
And the ones that are naturally considered weak
>Elves
>Gnomes
>Halflings
Even with all the training in the natural world, these guys wouldn't be as strong as a gorilla.
>>47227173
Modern nutritional knowledge
Modern understanding of an optimal lifting program. Which, as a matter of fact, does not involve lifting heavy things many times, but VERY heavy things a few times, a few times. Knowledge gained by analysis of lots of data, only aggregated with modern technology.
>>47222411
Again, you should actually READ Tolkien. In the few direct muscular strength comparisons we get between Elves and Men, the Elves are always portrayed as weaker. Children of Hurin notes that Turin is as "agile as any elf, and far stronger", and the portages over the rapids in the Anduin require the strength of the men to lift and carry the boats.
The Elves have a soul that's far more attached to their bodies than humans do, which makes them hardy, in DnD terms, they'd have a massive con bonus, but they're not muscularly stronger than men.
By the way, you do know that only numenorean royalty have elven blood, and even then, it's a tiny drip, right? That guys like Boromir have no elven ancestry whatsoever, and are also described as being stronger than elves like Legolas are.
tldr: Go read some fucking Tolkien you fucking idiot.
>>47218942
And yet a tiny little elf girl, not even into her second century is effortlessly pin-cushioning you with an Elven made bow that has, at least, a two-hundred pound draw.
Considering she can send an arrow cleanly through the plate of a knight at over a hundred yards.
>>47219660
>The strongest, most dangerous animal is still no match for a few humans with sharpened sticks.
And a pack of Lionesses can bring down an Elephant.
That's much more to do with team-work then being human.
Humans just happen to excel at team-work.
>>47227897
>Humans just happen to excel at team-work.
You're understating the value of those sticks. A bunch of human dogpiling an elephant will only get you a bunch of dead humans.
>>47218942
>feats done by body builders
>post a picture of a record holder weightlifter
Stopped reading right there, there is not a single competing bodybuilder alive that could clean and jerk as much weight as that "skinny" asian
>>47226414
WHAT? You think we are homo or something?
w-w-well if you insist
>>47227862
Bitch won't be pin-cushioning any nigga in the Fourth Age.
>>47227975
His arm starts to spasm when he breaths in. That can't be the sign of a healthy body.
By the bye, where can I find the animated Dragon's Crown pictures?
>>47228234
>That can't be the sign of a healthy body.
Nobody said a bodybuilder body is a healthy body.
>>47228234
There is a wiki, also google is your friend.
>it's a "we try to one up fantasy races with irl examples" thread
>>47226414
Seconding this.full homo
