I'm no fan of the Tau, I think they're a bunch of blueberries that need to get the fuck out of my unrepetently grimdark universe, buuuuuut-
They like to do insane shit to try and progress themselves, right? Well, that's admirable... Space Marines are the most insanely scary shit they've encountered, right? Well- it's not like the Tau haven't "convinced" humans to join them before, and apparently being masters of evolution (snigger), it would follow that the Ethereals would try to control the SPESS MUHREENS.
Now- I hear what you're immediately thinking, "MUH EMPRAH WORSHIP"
"MUH INDOCTRINATIONS"
But again, Neophytes- Forward Scouts- are not subject to hypnotherapy, and yet have received the gene and organ implants.
So, my question is this:
Could the Tau feasibly produce their own Tau-exclusive geneseed? Or at least reliably produce their own Space Marines? How? Otherwise what would make it impossible/ empiredestroyingwithresourcecost?
>>47105846
>>47105846
>But again, Neophytes- Forward Scouts- are not subject to hypnotherapy
Yes they are.
>Could the Tau feasibly produce their own Tau-exclusive geneseed?
Yes, they could. Except they don't bother with genetic engineering and seem to be focused on data engrams like the Puretide chip and deceased commander tactica archives and military hardware upgrades like rail technology and larger and larger suits.
Tau COULD make Space Marines, but there's no point. They'd be weaker than human Space Marines since the base Tau warrior is so weak only their most hardcore fighters can equal mankind's generic non-PDF non-Conscript Guardsman.
Tau stick to technology because it's easier and BETTER to just shove a Fire Caste into a Crisis Suit and have him vaporize enemy marines.
>>47105846
Nope. Like Warp Travel, they saw what needs to be done, and realize that it was either too advanced, or too fuck-all crazy so they refuse to touch that stuff.
Tau Spess Mehreens aren't a thing.
Hell Tau Gue'vesa psykers are barely touched on. Surprised Mugulath Bay hasn't exploded into Daemon Town yet.
>>47106001
It has they just have quarantined the world and removed any form of news around the planet from the Tau datasphere
>>47105846
Totally original idea, OP. We've definitely not had this thread a billion times before.
>>47105846
>Space Marines are the most insanely scary shit they've encountered, right?
Have you forgotten about the Warp spewing daemons at them on Arthas Moloch? Those were probably a whole hell of a lot scarier than the Space Marines.
I could see the tau attempting a Space Marine-esque supersoldier program on Gue'Vasa, but that would likely take centuries to get anywhere close to SM levels of development.
>>47108231
No, they just thought the Daemons were some crazy kind of alien race that wouldn't fit into the Greater Good.
The reason every race doesn't have space marines is because the process was invented by the Emperor of Mankind. The alien races WANT to know how he did it but none of them have been able to reverse engineer the process. The Emperor was, among other things, terribly smart.
>>47108336
And that nullifies the fact that daemons are scarier than space marines how?
>>47108360
Even if they knew how, the race would have to have an Emperor to provide the original geneseed.
If you take geneseed from some faggot Ethereal rather than the Emperor or a Primarch you end up with a worthless piece of shit.
There are renegade Space Marines that aren't Chaos worshipers, they are just rare because Marine Hypnotherapy tends to hold up against most other things. That love for the Emperor usually either remains in place or completely inverts into hatred, it's very rare for it to simply fade or vanish, unless you're playing one of the FFG rpgs or something.
Such marines find themselves on hunted and on the run, or in the employ of rogue traders or even Tau, though there's still the anti-xenos indoctrination.
Still, Tau are quite reasonable and open to diplomacy. Such space marines are few and far between, though. They're more likely to be fielded as a Gue'vesa hero than a squad or company of marines.
Knights seem like lords, and seem as corruptible as any planetary governor, as long as Tau could replace the forgeworld support. I think they'd be way easier to sway, but i think the Tau would be more hesitant to let an alien retain that much power.
>>47105846
>I think they're a bunch of blueberries that need to get the fuck out of my unrepetently grimdark universe,
Just remember that there is no way for the Tau to survive the 40k galaxy in the long term in their current form. The winner of the Imperium vs Nid fighting will wipe out the Tau, unless some 4th party wipes both out. But that 4th party has no reason to leave the Tau alone.
> Space Marines are the most insanely scary shit they've encountered, right?
Space Marines just kill. That's less scary than things like CSMs, daemons, what the Dark Eldar do to captives, etc
In some ways Space Marines are less scary than the Kroot. A Space Marine will just kill you. A Kroot will kill you, eat you, then their children will gain your strengths.
Could the Tau feasibly produce their own Tau-exclusive geneseed? Or at least reliably produce their own Space Marines? How?
A chapter turns renegade and sides with the Tau for some reason*. The chapter brings along enough gear/knowledge that the Tau can keep the chapter producing new Space Marines from Tau controlled human populations.
Problem is that the Tau might not be happy with how independent that chapter wants to be.
*Maybe deciding that aligning themselves with the Tau means they will live longer than going it alone.
>>47110364
Yeah - Space Marines usually want an entire world to themselves exempt from taxes, rarely listen to outside orders and instead act on their own initiative, and rarely act as anything more than a cleansing sword, not worrying too much about causalities or infrastructure destruction.
And those are the loyalist ones, with long lineages and ideas of duty and honor. Renegades will have broken almost completely with all of that, and they won't take kindly to the Tau trying to push them around in any sense.
It's sad, because I would enjoy more chapters that went renegade and turned towards xenos heresy instead of Chaos heresy. There's some renegade chapter that did do that, but I can't find their name, and they're one out of a couple hundred.
>>47110136
Is there any Canon source, or sorta canon source that has Space Marines in the service of Tau? Sounds pretty interesting.
>>47110738
No, because that's silly. And not the fun kind of silly.
However, there is the Dornian Heresy from Bolter & Chainsword, a fan setting where the heresy was reversed, and in particular, Robot Gorillaman split off Ultima Segmentum calling it Ultramar Segmentum. and incorporated Tau tech into his Marine's armor.
>>47108269
>but that would likely take centuries to get anywhere close to SM levels of development.
Remember, Tau in 40k are the humans of the average Sci-fi setting. They advance in technology much faster because of their shorter lifespans.
>>47105846
>Space Marines are the most insanely scary shit they've encountered, right?
HAHAHA. Space marines are one of the least scary encounters out of any 40k race. Tyranids, Orks, Dark Eldar, Necrons/C'tan, Chaos are all scarier.
>>47108360
>The reason every race doesn't have space marines is because the process was invented by the Emperor of Mankind. The alien races WANT to know how he did it but none of them have been able to reverse engineer the process.
LEL everyone already knows how to do that and they do it more effectively than humans. Space marines are highly defective experiments with a 50% failure rate. Dark Eldar and Tyranids are masters of genetic engineering and experimentation. Tau aren't as good as DE or Tyranids, but they can do it without having their experiments buff the armies of Chaos. Orks don't want it, Eldar don't need it. Emprah skeleton breeds faggets and failures.
>>47110364
Between the Beast Arises books, and the Black Crusade #13, and the trailer for Dawn of War III, the universe is currently liberally covered with heaps of dead people. It stands to reason that some overburdened apothecary would start shoveling armfuls of geneseed lumps into stasis boxes at some point or another. He just doesn't care anymore, he's trapped in a some grotesque version of "I Love Lucy- the chocolate packager conveyor belt" scene, and he's gotta keep the quarter-pounders fresh somehow.
>>47110857
Being fair, if a Chapter or even a large enough subset of a chapter went rogue and needed a safe haven, Tau space is possibly one of the best options. They have the resources and tech to support Space Marines, and they'd be more than willing to trade for the military support they could offer. Given the flexible nature of the Tau, they might even allow them to avoid fighting other Imperial forces where possible.
Of course, as far as we know this hasn't happened yet, but I don't think it's entirely unfeasible that it could.
>>47111354
>Orks don't want it
It's not that orks don't -want- it it's that they -are- it. They were originally a genetically created super soldier race that fell from grace after their masters disappeared, remember?
No reason to improve on perfection, after all.
>>47110364
>Just remember that there is no way for the Tau to survive the 40k galaxy in the long term in their current form.
Just remember that there is no long-term in 40k. You can speculate all the fuck you like about how X wouldn't last in the long run, but the setting isn't going that way, and Games Workshop give very few shits about the setting compared to sales of miniatures. If the Tau continue to sell, their position in 40k is assured. If the Tau don't sell well, they're on shaky ground.
Trying to justify whether or not it makes sense for the Tau to still be around in the long term in the setting based on anything other than "sales of miniatures" is missing the core thing that drives the decisions about the game setting.
>>47111354
Get a load of this heretic.
First up, why spend 20+ years growing a space marine, when you can stick any moderately skilled trooper in a battlesuit that provides equivalent protection and that you can mass produce?
Secondly, I could see the Tau allying with arenegadeSM force like the Reasonable Marines and providing assistance in reproducing the geneseed to replenish their ranks...but making their own SMs from scratch? I don't think it's likely.
>>47111972
It's unlikely because it's largely inefficient.
But yes, an individual rogue marine or renegade chapter could conceivably seek or be offered asylum within the Tau Empire, and possibly have it granted.
>>47105846
>But again, Neophytes- Forward Scouts- are not subject to hypnotherapy, and yet have received the gene and organ implants.
Neophytes are in the process of receiving their implants and indoctrination. Scouts have the full set, they're just waiting for the black carapace to mature.
>>47108360
Retconned. The big E now got that info from a deal with chaos. He also failed to try and not have to pay up, they did a lot more than bust his kneecaps.
>>47110738
They didn't join the Tau, but the Chaos Codex has a blurb about a chapter going full independent without the sway of Chaos.
It would be too far of a jump, if they were close enough to the Tau Empire, to become some level of vassal in exchange for weapons/support. Maybe they have to second a company into rotation depending on where the fighting is hottest.
Renegade marines with Pulse Carbines seems like fun.
Alternatively, if I were to go full over the top 40k Mary sue conspiracy theory doughnut steel: one of the most legions fled into the Warp. Through Warp time dickery and a dash of "just as planned" they emerge millennia later. Not recognizing the Imperium after 10,000 years of changes, they throw their lot in with the Greater Good that more closely resembles the Imperial Truth they once served.
OC. Doughnut Steele.
>>47113397
>The big E now got that info from a deal with chaos. He also failed to try and not have to pay up, they did a lot more than bust his kneecaps.
According to a Lord of Change attempting to corrupt Horus, which are totally bastions of truth and veracity.
Why does nearly every 40k fanfiction involve making other races more like space marines? Marines are half the player base already.
>>47111499
I believe most chapters would rather go in alone than force to ally with xenos.
I believe most chapters pushed to that point or go renegade would raid tau outposts rather than try to form an alliance
I believe the tau wouldn't want to trade with marines because the only thing the marines could offer is fighting capability and I trusting renegade marines is something most tau should be weary of.
I believe tau wouldn't risk giving tech to marines in the first place.
Basically trusting marines/giving tech is just a huge liability. Marines would rarely be forced in a position to want to ally with xenos. (even in desperation they would probably rather die or join chaos)
>>47114277
retards want to play space marines, but they also want to avoid the hate space marines get for being popular
ALTERNATIVELY, they want to "stick it to the man" and piss off those asshole space marine players... by playing space marines.
>>47113397
Pretty sure your talking about the McGuffin the Emperor needed to create the Primarchs. Which was then used to create the Space Marines.
Non-the-less it means that alien races would need both the Emperor's knowledge AND Chaos's help to create a Space Marine project.
>>47110136
>That love for the Emperor usually either remains in place or completely inverts into hatred, it's very rare for it to simply fade or vanish
I'm not sure if the Tau force gue'vasa to convert, actually. They might still worship the Emperor, they just believe that the Imperium has forsaken his ideals and that the Tau Empire is closer to his original vision.
>>47110136
>dat pic
what the fug, bud
>>47105846
>namefag
>obvious bait
>is trying to be cute with stuff like *snigger " typed into the post
1/10, got me to reply
>>47114453
Whatever version of the Imperial Creed Tau aligned humans follow would almost certainly be declared heretical.
>>47105988
>They'd be weaker than human Space Marines since the base Tau warrior is so weak
but tau have different castes right? and castes have physiological differences just pick the best cast for spess mreens
is it fire caste that are strong fighters?
also having the ability to produce better soldiers doesn't sound like a drawback
>>47114464
>>47114955
Fire Caste are SMART fighters (usually), not strong fighters. They are the toughest physically speaking of the castes but even their biggest gainz are about equivalent to your average Guardsman, maybe a little better.
>>47115709
>Implying
A trained Tau (picture related) can match Eldar
>>47115748
>Discussing Fire Caste
>Posting a picture of the fightiest Ethereal
I see where you're going with that but the idea still stands. Aun'Shi is an outlier and the majority of Fire Caste aren't gonna stand up well to physical combat. Aun'Shi, Farsight maybe, couple others possibly.
>>47114955
>>47115709
Since breeding in the Tau empire is highly regulated, it could be possible for them to breed particular physical traits over time to accentuate strength and agility, then use that as a base for geneseed modification.
It would take time though, if done conventionally.
>>47105846
It's about as likely as the Tau fully allying with the Necrons so they can get some sweet necrodermis bodies to biotransfer into.
That would be pretty cool, actually.
>>47110136
Renegade Space Marines wouldn't join the Tau. Hatred of xenos is deeply ingrained in all Astartes, to the point that even Chaos Space Marines view them as scum to be killed unless they can use them to further their plots. Otherwise even CHAOS finds Xenos revolting.
>>47111354
>Space marines are highly defective experiments with a 50% failure rate.
Wat
Space Marines do not have a 50% failure rate, otherwise they would have mathematically gone extinct within the first century.
>>47116485
Yeah, unless they got over that, too. I said they'd be rare.
>>47116867
They wouldn't be rare. They'd be nonexistent. There is no such thing as xenos-hugging chapters or renegades.
>>47105988
>Tau
>weak
>Literally the same strength as purposefully created warrior race space gorillas
>>47118106
S3 covers a wide range. Going from S3 isn't just "+1 Strength", it's the difference between a scrawny teenager and being able to rip the hatches off tanks.
>>47116509
I think he's talking more about their loyalty to the Emprah and ability to not turn to Chaos like a fucking retard
>>47118186
This. Strength 3 covers the entire available range of natural human strength from whatever your average /tg/-dwelling scrawny/doughy neckbeard can lift, all the way up to jacked professional weightlifters.
Strength 4 is "I use my free hand to hurl the SUV off the road while shooting a .75 calibre weapon on full-auto with my other hand".
>>47111354
>Tyranids are masters of genetic engineering
>The species that loses space battles to orks are masters of genetic engineering
Also Fabius Bile knows far more about biology than anyone short of a handful of Dark Eldar. Tau are nowhere near the level of humanity when it comes to any real technology, much less genetic engineering.
>>47118102
Yeah, all Space Marines kill Xenos on sight, and that would apply even to those renegades who have willingly left the Imperium or stopped loving the Emperor without turning to Chaos.
A rogue Astartes working with or for Tau is completely impossible under any circumstance, because all Marines are so zealotously Anti-Xeno.
>>47119123
>>The species that loses space battles to orks are masters of genetic engineering
>Cruddex fluff
>>47118106
>>47118186
>>47119117
I always imagined melee S3 as something that could kill you if you were left without medical attention, like a stab wound
S4 as something that could rip a limb from you or dent a light tank
S6 would bisect/explode a human being
S7 would pack the same punch as a tank shell
S8 could bisect a tank
I always have problems imagining S5, both melee and ranged.
>>47110857
What's the picture from? Isn't Dorn the Imperial Fists' Primarch?
>>47119123
>>47119395
To be fair, the point of the Ghorala story was to showcase the Tyranids' ability to come back from basically nothing.And there's no shame in being beaten by the best.
>>47123995
Whatever happened to reading comprehension and context?
There is a fan made mirror universe called the Dornian Heresy. The premise is that Dorn was turned to Chaos instead of Horus, and the Loyalists and Traitors are reversed from normal.
You've got calm, sane World Eaters, and Khorne powered Space Wolves, Thousand Sons that got what they wanted at the Council of Nikea, and Nurgle infected Blood Angels, and so on.
Most of it was worked out, but the guy behind it all disappeared a few years ago, and no one's been able to get in touch with him.
Half of it was collected before that, but the other half is just sitting on the forums.
>>47110738
Not working for the Tau, but there was one time the Ultramarines teamed up with them against the Necrons. After the battle they intentionally let the Tau evacuate the planet before the Exterminatus.
>>47124526
Damn,this is fucking cool. Thanks for sharing,anon.
I wonder what the Tau will create when they fully clash with Chaos
>>47126011
>Blood Ravens and Ultramarines become enemies since their xenowaifus get them to fight>It is revealed that this was the plan of the xenos all along
>>47111354
>Orks
>Scarier than space marines
>>47119182
>allying temporarily with unstopable murder robots for a single conflict
>enslaving yourself to a race which will kill you the second it suits them, offers no wealth, power and status, has uncompatible technology and only some of it is better than the Imperiums
That's totally comparable
>>47113397
>>47114453
>they just believe that the Imperium has forsaken his ideals and that the Tau Empire is closer to his original vision.
So, where does the whole "Xenos indisputably rule over humanity and all humans that have been indoctrinated into their new roles serve as third-class citizens" thing fit in with the Big E's original vision?
>>47115748
Ethereals are literally Ubermensch among Tau, still not that impressive physically when compared to a well-fed and exercised Imperial, do not take modern Earth baselines as standard for Imperial baselines, they were all about incremental changes to the human norm on a wide scale back when the Men of Gold project ultimately failed.
>>47130149
>implying
>>47130608
>they were all about incremental changes to the human norm on a wide scale back when the Men of Gold project ultimately failed.
FFG's Only War says that IG can deadlift only 75 KG.
I can lift more than that
>>47130675
GW and FFG are literally retarded half the time, especially when numbers are involved.
>>47105846
>Space Marines are the most insanely scary shit they've encountered, right?
Pretty sure they've encountered Dark Eldar and Necrons, the first being weird and fucked up jumping around in spandex and Necrons being Necrons.
Like others have said, base Tau warriors are weak so they'd be weaker than human space marines anyway. And space marine geneseed is also shit the Emperor made and doesn't even work on women, so there's little chance it'd work on the Tau. And considering it's ancient by 40k standards (and probably based on even more ancient DAoT shit) there's no shot in hell of the Tau reverse engineering it. The Tau aren't that advanced. They've just got good guns, but even the Imperium could kill them if it wasn't for absurd levels of plot armor.
During the DAoT humans were able to live side by side with Eldar, they were essentially like gods given some of the descriptions of the tech humans had. Tau aren't even near that level yet. Nor would controlling a human with pheromones work since humans don't have those receptors. It's like asking if an animal on Earth can make a human obey them by using pheromones. If there's no receptors there to process all that, it doesn't work.
>>47130675
And FFG is not canon. They said it themselves. Not to mention putting averages on IG is retarded.
>>47105846
>Could the Tau feasibly produce their own Tau-exclusive geneseed?
Tau biotech is worse than high-end Magos Biologis science which is worse than Great Crusade Mechanicum bioscience who could not fully grasp the processes that went behind the Space Marines. So no, at best they could create a drastically inferior supersoldier, which probably wouldn't be the best idea anyway considering the Battlesuit project can bring elite Fire Warriors to Tactical Marine level (almost).
>>47105846
It'd be easier to produce a new XV2 series suit designed for frontline combat, and more practical to stay focused on ranged combat and heightened mobility instead.
>>47130694
>complaining about plot armor
>when space marines are literally made of plot armor
>>47130756
Spuce Maroons have plot armor, but they don't have the Super-DeusExMachina-Diamantium-TheseAreNotTheDroidsYouAreLookingFor-TheTyranidsareaThingGuise alloyed plot armor of the Tau.
>>47130768
I disagree.
Space marines have more plotarmor
>>47130756
It's strictly handled differently between the two factions. Both have their really bad cases of plot armour but usually the Astartes end up engaging in last stands or desperate charges. Tau, on the other hand, while mostly fine until the new Warzone Damocles book are currently throwing everyone around with asspulls and an utterly infuriating amount of narrator bias. Seriously, anyone who's read the books could make a drinking game over how many times the Tau are called advanced, geniuses or all-around awesome while the Imperials are compared to hot shit on a plate in the descriptions.
>>47130768
>the only faction that uses tactics that have advanced beyond the WW2 mindset
>one of the few factions that almost completely eschews melee in favor of just staying away and shooting the other guy
>pretty sure it's the only faction that doesn't need warpy space magic to justify its battlefield tactics
>combat doctrine involves hitting supply lines, adequate use of stealth and not just throwing waves of soldiers at something until none of the enemy is left
>"wtf these guys just have plot armor"
>>47130756
Space marines make sense in the world of 40k. They're big, genetically related to primarchs (who the Emperor made by using warp shit and biological engineering from the DAoT), etc. So, I can believe they're that powerful and succeed where others may not. Especially when it's likely the Emperor can even aid with his powers at times. It's not realistic to our reality, but in the reality of 40k they make sense.
The Tau don't. At all. The justifications for how they exist and do things would've gotten them wiped out a long time ago. It's literally boiling down to "Tau don't lose because they just don't and we wanna appeal to the weeb audience". Now, if the Tau acted more like Commander Farsight and had more of an edge to them that allowed them to not play naive and innocent when they want, but also somehow win against races bred for war? They'd make sense. But most of the Tau aren't like the enclaves, so their existence is unjustified entirely. And GW apparently refuses to write convincing stories that make them make sense.
>>47130801
You are leaving out the entire thing where a a proper Imperial Hive-world has more people on it than the Tau have as a species.
The Imperium could quite literally cover every inch of every Tau world in several dozen meters of corpses, if only they weren't constantly fighting more important battles, and if only there wasn't a Tyranid Swarm that just happens to be in the area and somehow avoided crippling the Tau's ability to operate on an interstellar level despite their in comparison horrifically slow FTL speed and lack of any true methods of moving information about at the speed a civilization such as that needs.
Unless it changed in the last codex, they still use courier ships even between their most built up systems.
>>47130801
>the only faction that uses tactics that have advanced beyond the WW2 mindset
Barely, they still have commanders on the field and the Battlesuits get more credit than they have any right to as a design. Stop trying to bring logic into 40k, because most of the time the writer has no concern for it.
>one of the few factions that almost completely eschews melee in favor of just staying away and shooting the other guy
WW1-esque riflemen with low-RoF long range weapons are clearly superior to more manoeuvrable forces with assault weapons. On any sort of logical military level Tau Fire Warriors are just shit as a concept compared to the alternative. Once again, stop with this belief that any logic goes into GWs design or outcomes beyond rule of cool.
>>pretty sure it's the only faction that doesn't need warpy space magic to justify its battlefield tactics
No, instead it needs a huge bunch of asspulls. "You didn't see my massive army of Battlesuits and tanks over the hill despite there being a Voidborn Augury." Or the ever-hilarious "Our forces are deployed strictly by aircraft, which relies heavily on Void superiority to function. But when the Imperials take the Void there's no mention of this being countered."
>combat doctrine involves hitting supply lines, adequate use of stealth and not just throwing waves of soldiers at something until none of the enemy is left
Literally read Astra Militarum lore instead of /tg/.
>"wtf these guys just have plot armor"
Yes, they do. Because, and I know this might be hard to believe, a GW writer isn't calculating or making a war out in his own head, he's already decided how the story is going to go, regardless of, and sometimes ignoring the logistics that would actually go behind warfare.
>>47130756
Only some named SM have plot armor. Tau have absurd plot armor as a whole faction.
>>47130801
This post is exactly why I hate Tau faggots.
>muh Tau are the bestest ever in everything
>every other faction is retarded
>smug anime reaction pic
Tau is literaly weeb pandering: the faction
Just because writers claim they have the bestest tactics that doesn't make it true. Tau are in fact one of the most retardedly equiped factions. Fucking Orks make more sense from purely an equipment point of view.
>>47130807
You are an idiot. The Enclave Tau are not that different than empire Tau in waging war. Farsight still uses Mont'ka and Kauyon. Also the Tau are pretty much knowledgeable about what goes on in the galaxy. The Ethereals and High Command know much more than the plebs.
And why the Tau haven't been wiped out? Because they have millions of suits that are equal or superior to marines. They are a technological powerhouse that the Imperium has a hardtime tackling. The whole "The Imperium can wipe them out easily if they focused on them" bullshit is just fanwank that goes against what's in the fluff.
You don't know much about Tau fluff. Your opinions have not much worth.
>>47130794
Warzone Damnos.
Everything you said is invalidated.
>>47130893
I said usually the Astartes end up in last stands, and admitted that they both have some cases of really bad plot armour. Are you seriously that desperate to ignore my entire argument that you're willing to bend what I was saying?
>>47115748
>>47130790
>>47130893
Carnac pls go
>>47130881
>Only some named SM have plot armor.
Lies.
The Ultramarines have plenty of plot armor. For example, multiple Xenos races helped them defeat Behemoth. If it wasn't for the Xenos input, then Ultramar would have been destroyed. Not to mention DAMNOS
I have a hard time believing that a million marines would have such a HUGE impact on the galaxy. A hardtime than believing that a force made up of millions upon millions of marines equivalents can protect a bottleneck of collection of systems.
>>47130893
>You are an idiot. The Enclave Tau are not that different than empire Tau in waging war. Farsight still uses Mont'ka and Kauyon. Also the Tau are pretty much knowledgeable about what goes on in the galaxy. The Ethereals and High Command know much more than the plebs.
The Enclave Tau actually make sense in 40k. At least from how they're written. The normal Tau basically goes like this "kawaii desu xeno chan we are for greater good! we dont know about any evil stuff we love everyone, please join us konichiwa anime mecha robots!"
And as soon as shit hits the fan and they encounter a race that's powerful? Imperium saves them. Encounter Orks? Know how to beat them instantly despite Orks being literally made for war by the most advanced species in 40k lore aside from maybe Necrons. Meet Dark Eldar? They get fucked over once and the DE never come by them again. Meet Necrons? They kill one diplomatic party of Tau. Encounter chaos? One chaos space marine has a cult and nothing happens after they beat them, despite chaos knowing there's a bunch of humans there and that Tau don't know about warp shit. And then the story stops. Nobody of consequence ever truly comes after the Tau except for the Imperium, and as soon as they do, some gigantic fucking deus ex machina comes along to save them and is pulled right outta the author's warp sized bag of plot armor.
Enclave Tau should've been the real Tau, not the fucking shitty Tau which makes no sense in 40k.
You can't just be a naive sitting duck when you want looking kawaii in your suits and then somehow be badass instantly when the plot demands it. That's so fucking cheap and is treatment no other faction gets.
>>47130909
>I said usually the Astartes end up in last stands,
Bullshit. You contine to lie. Last stands are one of the marine flavours but usually you know what they do mostly? They scourge entire battlefields out of enemies. Entire planets, systems and even sectors. The Zeist Campaign for example.
The fact that you are willing to forgive the marines despite them being worse than the Tau in "plot armor" department, shows hypocritical bias here. Shame on you.
>>47130893
>Because they have millions of suits that are equal or superior to marines.
The Tau deploy their Battlesuits by the thousands and yet a few companies of Astartes are considered a huge player in crusades against the Tau. Perhaps some of the more elite warriors in Battlesuits could offer more, but on average an Astartes is a more effective soldier than a typical pilot in a Crisis. Remember, when we're talking about Space Marines, we're talking about strictly better examples of a force who, in millennia passed, steamrolled dozens of defended planets with, at most, 200,000 men. Admittedly, more elite pilots in larger suits are capable of brining down Tacticals.
>They are a technological powerhouse that the Imperium has a hardtime tackling.
Sure, this part is acceptable all things considered, but this:
>The whole "The Imperium can wipe them out easily if they focused on them" bullshit is just fanwank that goes against what's in the fluff.
This is just an outright lie. The forces that have been deployed in previous Crusades against the Empire, while relatively large for individual movements, weren't large forces at all for the larger Imperium. All it would take is Ultramar's forces and its many Chapters of Marines (in comparison to the few hundred that have been sent before, at maximum) to really hurt the Empire, and that's only a small fraction of the Imperium's forces.
>>47130959
This was miscommunication on my part. I was implying that when Astartes plot armour becomes necessary, they often end up in last stands. When Tau plot armour is necessary (all factions need some now and again) the narrative and flavour always has this narrative to it, twisting it to make the Tau look like the best fighting force in the galaxy for some reason when it should be a gritty "hold the line," scenario.
>>47130956
You're entire post is bullshit and shows that you have no opened a single Tau source book. I don't know where to begin.
How the fuck did you miss a decade worth of fluff of Tau fighting constantly against Necrons, Dark Eldar, and Orks, and whatever for a pretty long time. You see one mention of it on the wiki and you think that's it.
>some gigantic fucking deus ex machina comes along to save them and is pulled right outta the author's warp sized bag of plot armor.
>And as soon as shit hits the fan and they encounter a race that's powerful? Imperium saves them.
Never happened.
The closet thing to that is Hive Fleet Gorgon and you can consider that the Imperium paying back the Tau for helping out with Hive Fleet Behemoth.
>>47130654
>what is the death company
>what is the legion of the damned
>what are the salamanders
>>47131001
>This is just an outright lie. The forces that have been deployed in previous Crusades against the Empire, while relatively large for individual movements,
Define "large". Because the first Damocles Gulf Crusade was started by one butthurt priest over Imperial border worlds trading with the Tau. It was large for the Tau, the Imperium throws out crusades on a whim to claim worlds, retake lost ones, etc. It's a common enough thing that it wasn't large for them. What's large to the Tau is a splinter to the Imperium.
>>47131001
>The Tau deploy their Battlesuits by the thousands and yet a few companies of Astartes are considered a huge player in crusades against the Tau. Perhaps some of the more elite warriors in Battlesuits could offer more, but on average an Astartes is a more effective soldier than a typical pilot in a Crisis.
I disagree. We have seen suits of all types and marines fight each other in the Damocle, they pretty much massacre marines unless they are supported.
>This is just an outright lie. The forces that have been deployed in previous Crusades against the Empire, while relatively large for individual movements, weren't large forces at all for the larger Imperium. All it would take is Ultramar's forces and its many Chapters of Marines (in comparison to the few hundred that have been sent before, at maximum) to really hurt the Empire, and that's only a small fraction of the Imperium's forces.
No, you iz the lies.
Lets see what the Index Xenos and IA: Taros say (paraphrasing).
To destroy the Tau Empire, it would take a huge effort on the part of the Imperium. It would take massive resources and manpower. Even then, the High Lords are not sure that it can be accomplished.
>>47131001
> twisting it to make the Tau look like the best fighting force in the galaxy for some reason when it should be a gritty "hold the line," scenario.
Question.
Did you read the Kauyon and Mont'ka books? Do you know what type of conflicts they were? I doubt you did.
>>47131051
You lying piece of shit.
The Crusade was stated in numerous sources to be a huge crusade ordered by the High lords of Terra themselves. (sources Marines codex 7th ED and Farsight Enclave supp). They had more than 120+ regiments involved.
Tau haters must lie. They can't help it.
>>47131088
>To destroy the Tau Empire, it would take a huge effort on the part of the Imperium. It would take massive resources and manpower. Even then, the High Lords are not sure that it can be accomplished.
>High Lords send out troops to fight Black Crusades, advanced Eldar incursions, Chaos outbreaks, Tyranids, Dark Eldar raids, Necrons, and all sorts of other terrifying species that can cross the galaxy and have posed a major threat for thousands of years at this point and are advanced and geared for war
>High Lords aren't sure they can beat the Tau who own a handful of worlds and are kiddies compared to everyone else
I'm done. Unless you paraphrased that part, I'm done with this. I have never seen a faction jerked off this hard. I'm actually blushing from how blatantly they're just reaching over to Tau players and jerking them off with gusto at this point. If that is somehow canon, then this amount of jerking off a playerbase rivals even that of marines. I don't even know how they can justify making such a blatantly absurd statement like that and expect to be taken seriously.
>>47131088
>I disagree. We have seen suits of all types and marines fight each other in the Damocle, they pretty much massacre marines unless they are supported.
And we have also seen Marines do terrible, terrible things to forces of all kinds, in addition to two companies outright being a dangerous force in the Crusades. There's no reason to believe a Tau Battlesuit could accomplish battlefield effectiveness compared to a Marine. The latter is a better soldier in literally every way, for one, and while the Crisis is heavily armoured it does not possess adequate defences to properly handle sustained fire from a Boltgun. There's evidence for either side of this argmument, but suggesting that Tau can shit out millions of soldiers equivalent to the de-facto supersoldiers of the 40k 'verse is ridiculous. You do realize that means they possess a force greater than the Astartes Legions during the Great Crusade, right?
>To destroy the Tau Empire, it would take a huge effort on the part of the Imperium. It would take massive resources and manpower. Even then, the High Lords are not sure that it can be accomplished.
Subjectivity, the Imperials wouldn't dare divert manpower that is actively being used against the other dozen major threats. There is no logical way to suggest the Tau could survive against the full force of the Imperium. We're talking enough ships to demolish the Tau fleets and just call Exterimatus on all of their planets, moving at speeds faster than the Tau can keep up with on macro-terms. What can they do about that?
>Did you read the Kauyon and Mont'ka books?
I did, and some of it was good, but a lot of it just had this language that really put the Tau on the top of the pedestal. Most of the books essentially involved the Tau dealing with anything the Imperium threw at them, glorifying their tactica and putting in a few necessary losses (I liked the Assassins in particular, though sending 4 was overkill).
>>47131051
Haven't you heard? Despite the Tau still being the same as before the Crusade force was retconned to be THE BIGGEST EVER and Tau won because they have THE BESTEST EVER TACTICS and THE BESTEST EVER TECHNOLOGY. But they still had to make the Imperium mouth breathing retards and create an asspull why they had to disengage.
As I've said, Tau are literally an anime plot tier faction and it's all done so that the weebs can circlejerk over them.
>>47131088
>Tau can't into Warp
>Chaos/Imperium could just Warp travel to Tau homeworld, teleport a few Terminators and Psykers/Daemons on the surface and slaughter the Ethereals
But of course that won't happen
>>47131156
>I'm done. Unless you paraphrased that part, I'm done with this. I have never seen a faction jerked off this hard. I'm actually blushing from how blatantly they're just reaching over to Tau players and jerking them off with gusto at this point. If that is somehow canon, then this amount of jerking off a playerbase rivals even that of marines. I don't even know how they can justify making such a blatantly absurd statement like that and expect to be taken seriously.
You idiot.
The Imperium and Tau doesn't live in vacuum. Both of them are dealing with problems other than themselves. I am responding to the claim of if the Imperium went at the Tau serious, they would wipe them out easily. In the fluff that's bullshit.
The Imperium went seriously at the Tau two times. Both ended with two failed crusades that wouldn't even achieve their objectives.
>>47131220
To be fair, that's what most of the fandom means by the Imperium "taking the Tau seriously." As in, sending just as much against them as they do at the Cadian Gate and outlying tendrils of Chaos forces, or sending more than approximately half a Sector's force at a time (calculations suggest that a well-populated Sector has hundreds and hundreds of Miltarum regiments, as well as a Chapter or two.)
That being said, I'm fine with the Tau surviving with virtue of circumstance in addition to their own efforts, and I'm not one to argue against their existence, I just feel as if they're being portrayed as far higher than they need to be. It's almost like they're not even underdogs anymore, or at least within the direct quotes from the fluff itself (which is all 70% of /tg/ regrettably considers.)
>>47131220
They don't have to exist in a vacuum. Eldar, Chaos, the Imperium, Necrons, and Dark Eldar have transportation that is faster than the Tau. It's truly FTL and faster than the Tau could hope to respond to. Any one of them could use webways or warp jumps and just blow their planets apart before the Tau could even respond. Even if they were suicide missions, the loss would be some ships, but the Tau would be gone for good.
>>47131168
>And we have also seen Marines do terrible, terrible things to forces of all kinds, in addition to two companies outright being a dangerous force in the Crusades. There's no reason to believe a Tau Battlesuit could accomplish battlefield effectiveness compared to a Marine. The latter is a better soldier in literally every way, for one, and while the Crisis is heavily armoured it does not possess adequate defences to properly handle sustained fire from a Boltgun. There's evidence for either side of this argmument, but suggesting that Tau can shit out millions of soldiers equivalent to the de-facto supersoldiers of the 40k 'verse is ridiculous. You do realize that means they possess a force greater than the Astartes Legions during the Great Crusade, right?
In the opening stages of the Kauyon war, the Tau murdered hundreds of marines and injured many more. The Tau were already killing companies worth of marines on a single planet.
>You do realize that means they possess a force greater than the Astartes Legions during the Great Crusade, right?
Which explains how they survived and their rapid expansion.
>There is no logical way to suggest the Tau could survive against the full force of the Imperium.
See >>47131220
>I did,
Then you would know that the Kauyon book revolves around entrapment of Imperial forces while the Mont'ka book was a last stand by the Tau.
The books ended with the Tau maimed and having to settle with a pyrrhic victory which to the Tau is a loss.
>>47131207
>But of course that won't happen
>Imperial fleets have to exit the warp outside of systems to avoid being torn apart by gravitational forces
>Tau outposts spot them, orbitals are primed and start firing
>Tau fleets patrolling the system warp in and blast the Imperial fleet to ruins.
>>47131156
>Unless you paraphrased that part, I'm done with this.
Well, he said he did, though I guess it's not too far off.
>Threat Index and Imperial Policy
>The threat of the Tau should not be underestimated on the basis of their non-overtly aggressive nature. Their ever expanding empire continues to push deep into Imperial space and such effrontery must be met with the requisite force in order to push these aliens back into their own space. At present there is no specific policy of extermination aimed at the Tau, and it would take a major effort on the part of the Imperium to destroy the Tau empire, if indeed such a thing is now possible. With the exception of some radical Fire caste commanders, the Tau do not appear to regard the Imperium as a threat and conflict usually only erupts when the encroachments of the Tau become intolerable to local system commanders.
Bear in mind that's from 2001 when the Tau were first released.
On the flipside, pic related for Vetock's comments on the Tau-Imperium situation in his design notes for the previous codex.
>>47131332
>In the opening stages of the Kauyon war, the Tau murdered hundreds of marines and injured many more. The Tau were already killing companies worth of marines on a single planet.
So in the opening stages they literally killed most of the Marines that were sent in, and you have no problem with this when, say, Necrons struggle with entire Chapters? This is plot armour or rather narrative power, truest and all. They don't need a force equivalent to one that was strong enough to conquer a shattered galaxy to survive a rapid expansion, which mostly dealt with Orkz as the worst threat. It's literally advocating the Tau to be the best faction military-wise and military potential wise by such a ridiculous degree that it doesn't even make a good narrative. "Ha, my previously underdog faction could now solo multiple enemy factions at once due to technology that apparently no other race thought of, even the more advanced ones."
>See >>47131220
See >>47131281
>The books ended with the Tau maimed and having to settle with a pyrrhic victory which to the Tau is a loss.
But the Imperium lost even harder. They had to deal with a massive blow to their already strained military structure with nobody gaining from it (bar the AdMech who are currently experimenting on a fuck-load of Tau tech).
>>47131284
You
see
>>47131332
>As in, sending just as much against them as they do at the Cadian Gate and outlying tendrils of Chaos forces,
There are 1000 regiments, 8 chapters, and I think 4 titan legios defending the Cadia Gate.
IIRC, The Imperium sent 1000 regiments+, I apox 2 chapters worth of marines, and two titan legios, and an entire knight house + freeblades.
The High Lords ordered countless forces like the Admech legions and the Sisters of battle to join in.
It's very comparable to the forces in the Gate. I just remember something, the tank battle in Mont'ka was said to be one the largest tank battles the Imperium ever fought.
>>47131366
>With the exception of some radical Fire caste commanders, the Tau do not appear to regard the Imperium as a threat
>An Empire with literally over a million worlds and trillions of soldiers simultaneously waging hundreds of thousands of battles and wars at once across an entire galaxy against things that will literally devour the cosmos if they don't fight it
>not a threat
>>47131408
I'm sorry, but that is frankly retarded.
A similar deployment to what is annually sent to Cadian Gate would shatter -anything- it's sent against, even a fully awoken Necron World-engine.
Saying literally anything otherwise implies that a minor Xenos power, and it is in fact a MINOR xenos power, is a harder target to break than a sector of space that is considerably larger in scale that is partially merged with a dimension of infinite energy and thoughts that spawns truly infinite amounts of horrors and abominations that do not obey the laws of material physics and drive legions of people insane just from a short glimpse.
>>47131408
>Approx. 2 chapters worth of marines
Elements of 6 companies. Literally less than a single complete Chapter.
>1000 regiments+
I don't remember reading this sort of number anywhere, I'm sure it was somewhere in the low hundreds.
>The High Lords ordered countless forces like the Admech legions and the Sisters of battle to join in.
AdMech deployed very little and spent most of their time looting Tau stuff, which they are now experimenting on and learning from, it was mostly the Titanicus legions and Knight Houses that ended up supporting the Imperials which, while proving superior to most Tau Battlesuits, aren't exactly an incredibly imposing force on a scale this big.
So no, the forces are not comparable to the Cadian Gate, or even if they were one must also consider that many forces are scattered across the Eye of Terror, because Abbadon, as stupid as he is, isn't throwing an entire Black Crusade at that one zone.
>>47131404
>So in the opening stages they literally killed most of the Marines that were sent in, and you have no problem with this when, say, Necrons struggle with entire Chapters?
Like I said, the whole conflict in Kauyon was a entrapment one. It was designed to lure the marines enmass to a planet that the Tau redesigned to be mass of death traps for the marines.
The marines fell for it. I have no issue in seeing marines getting wrong footed by their pride and belligerence.
>But the Imperium lost even harder.
Only 50% of their forces were killed but they checked the Tau advance for the time being. Not a total loss.
>>47124526
>and the Loyalists and Traitors are reversed
Why are fan-heresys always so lazy?
>>47131485
>The marines fell for it. I have no issue in seeing marines getting wrong footed by their pride and belligerence.
These are Raven Guard, they have fought Night Lords before, who are constantly using this sort of tactic. Besides, why aren't the Imperials using the Tau's philosophy against them? Why aren't they making sure the aircraft-based mass-manoeuvres are being properly countered or using their Void Augurs to prevent such ambuses? We can talk about what happened all day, but in the end the Tau are, for some reason, acting logically in a setting where the war-races who have no reason to be retarded are running at people with swords. It's disgusting not because of the Tau themselves, but because of the almost intentional favouritism by writing the Tau (somewhat) competently then completely ignoring their weaknesses/the capabilities of the other faction.
>>47131417
The know the Imperium is bust with bigger fish.
>>47131470
>Elements of 6 companies. Literally less than a single complete Chapter.
I don't think so. The marines lost hundreds of marines and "many more" were injuries in the initial stages of war on Pretecia which is a single planet in a entire warzone.
Furthermore, I recall there elements 8-12 chapters engaged in that conflict.
>>47131470
>I don't remember reading this sort of number anywhere, I'm sure it was somewhere in the low hundreds.
This is the issue here. You just don't!
The source is the AM codex 7th ED.
>AdMech deployed very little and spent most of their time looting Tau stuff, which they are now experimenting on and learning from, it was mostly the Titanicus legions and Knight Houses that ended up supporting the Imperials which, while proving superior to most Tau Battlesuits,
The Admech ended up on another planet. You see it in the next IA book.
And about the knights? It's stated that the Tau suits were more menacing to the Knights that the Orks and Chaos walkers. In fact, it's said that the Knight House lost more knights fighting in this conflict than they did in the HH.
>So no, the forces are not comparable to the Cadian Gate,
Because you don't have the into to compare.
>>47131366
THANK YOU.
Been looking for the source of the "blaze through the galax" quote for a while. Source? Which WD?
>>47131417
>The Imperium had demonstrated but the merest fraction of its size and power, yet the Tau had gained invaluable insight into its methods. More importantly, the Tau had learned that those disenfranchised and rejected by the Imperium could be manipulated. Surely, they reasoned, no matter its size, no power so fractured could ultimately stand before the manifest destiny of the Tau, and the Greater Good of their empire.
From the second Tau codex, one of the sections that actually wasn't just copypasted from the first one, though they'd clearly thought that way even before 4e - take their opening quote in BFG for instance:
>“It appears to me that, lacking the sense of unity that might inform them of their insignificance, these Gue’la have come to think that they might own the stars themselves, even the spaces in between them. Only by our presence, I think, might we now convince them otherwise.”
>Kor’o Tau’n Viel
>>47131538
Well, obviously if people have swords and they work, and sometimes they come against something that is simply beyond the capacity for ranged weapons, artillery, or anything otherwise through some vague means, technologically or metaphysically and can only be harmed through melee range, it's not very retarded.
Like daemons, daemons could very realistically be practically immune to damage unless it's done through belief and visceral emotions that simply can't be harnessed in the correct way through a gun or distant location that a sword or hammer can.
Or Necrons and their stuff.
Or hell, if the Imperium ever managed to recreate working vehicle-scale Void-shields in mass that would practically invalidate every form of medium-to-long range combat outside of the absolute heaviest armament.
>>47131567
>knights lost more than they did in the Horus Heresy
>The Tau killed more of them than the second biggest (and given if Emps dies the galaxy becomes the warp the biggest) conflict aside from the war in heaven
Wew. I couldn't even begin to imagine how someone could even be happy about this much blatant wankery.
>>47131600
Ah, so it's propaganda and arrogance.
>Fully a thousand regiments of Imperial Guard stand at constant readiness to respond to any incursion and no fewer than ten Space Marine Chapters maintain their fortress monasteries close by to watch for and strike at any threat. Three Titan Legions wait for the call to arms and untold vessels of Battlefleet Obscuras constantly make patrols and sweeps of the thousands of nearby star systems.
-Index Chaotica Eye of Terror
Posting information because this thread needs it. I was a little off it seems.
Compare that to initial wave of reinforcements to the Damocles warzone.
>>47131617
Also the Scars met a foe that's more deadly than anything they faced before.
Tau trapmasters.
>>47124526
Man, the Dornian Heresy it just so lazy.
>Vandire is a Space Marine
>Thor is a Space Marine
>Sisters of Battle no longer exist
>Sons of Horus become the Black Templars for reasons
>space marine space marine space marine
>Khornate Space Yiffs
>Nurglite Vampires
>No one talks about the Dark Angels EVER
Here is the bit about Tau killing hundreds of marines in the starting stages of war on Prefectia.
>>47131712
>space marines space marines
>too many space marines
>why so many space marines
>ugh and why don't they have more space marines doe
>>47131730
Because I have a Dark Angels army.
>>47131725
Statement of Tau being more mobile than marines.
>>47131660
>>47131725
Here we see a further death of 40k as a good narrative. Where the Tau have objectively stronger military forces than the initial main antagonist and have the logical potential to completely surpass everyone in the setting, with only their lack of true Warp holding them back. Can't argue that this lore doesn't exist, but seriously, it's beyond retarded. People wonder why /tg/ is getting mad at Tau plot armour but not Astartes? There's a drastic difference between a Chapter dealing with a sub-faction of a threat and the Tau being, logically, perhaps the strongest ground military force in existence when put under scrutiny.
>>47131752
Here in the midterm of the conflict the exact point where Tau routed the marines from the battlefield.
Here is the bit where it's said the tank battle in Mont'ka was among the largest the Imperium fought. Up there with Tallarn in the HH, methinks.
>>47131768
>Anons complain that the Tau are too weak to survive in 40K
>GW decides to up the powerlevel of the Tau and give them new toys to make them fit powerlevel-wise in 40K
>Anons complain that the Tau are too strong all while crying they are too weak paradoxically
You know what, GW? Just do whatever you want, you crazy bastards. Anons would never be satisfied with whatever you do.
>>47131902
>make them fit powerlevel-wise in 40K
>Routinely screw over Astartes where nobody else can
>Has a logically deducible ground force stronger than the entire Astartes portion of the Great Crusade
>Have been shown to have the best tactics and second best technology in practical terms for all the races in terms of ground troops
>>47131923
>>Routinely screw over Astartes where nobody else can
>no else can
You jest monkiegh?
>>47132003
Eldar have always been solid counters to Astartes, I enjoyed them in that, seeing both Aspect Warrior and Tactical Marine die in relatively high numbers as the two masters of warfare duke it out. Now? Two Earth Caste engineers and Shadowsun organize a trap complex and the entire Eldar Warhost/Marine company gets melted.
>>47130694
Tau geneseed doesn't have to work on Tau, it has to work on Gue'vesa.
>Tau pheromones
Still with this shit
>Most Tau team leaders and fighter aces have more experience than a whole squadron of other races’ pilots, all of which they turn to the pursuit of victory for the Tau’va.
-"Death from the Skies" supp
The difference between the Tau and rest of races is that they are among the few races willing to learn and accumulate experience. They are not close-minded and they don't have dogma to hamper them. This is why the Tau commanders on average have more experience and are more skilled than the commanders of other races.
>>47132068
That makes no sense considering the fact that Imperials are pressed into service at a young age, usually, and live for longer than Tau. It's literally a quote with no lore backing.
>>47132084
>It's literally a quote with no lore backing.
Actually, the quote explains why a Tau sergeant who can't be more 25 years old is as skilled in his command as a Marine captain.
>>47132118
Forgot my picture.
>>47132068
>>47132084
To add to this, it's also a perfect representation of why such a large number of /tg/'s populace dislikes more modern Tau lore.
>Tau are good at X
>>Why?
>Because they are good at X
>Tau are good at Y
>>But doesn't this go against their fluff?
>No, we've decided to change it to make them good at Y
>>47132118
How does it explain it? It's literally just saying that the Tau gain more experience than people who have been practising their craft for (in some cases) thrice or more time than them, it's not like the Astartes are trained badly either, hypno-therapy exists, allowing them to learn and expand on a broad array of subjects faster than anyone today could hope to learn them.
It doesn't explain anything, it's another case of Tau being good at something for no reason other than the writers want to justify their story.
>>47132132
>>47132118
Or how Shadowsun's skill at shadow wars equals and in the end surpassed that of the chapter master of the Raven Guard.
She cannot be more than 30 and he must be hundreds of years old.
This is the Tau chief advantage. They learn and adapt. They always grow stronger, they never stagnant.
>>47132182
>This is the Tau chief advantage. They learn and adapt. They always grow stronger, they never stagnant.
Nobody's contesting this, but I'm arguing from a narrative point of view over the actual lore itself. What do the Tau add to the setting if they're just the best at everything and everyone else is retarded because reasons? "They can learn faster than everyone else because everyone else stagnates." Is basically the sum of all that, when we know that most other races have more than enough potential to grow, it's ignoring established canon to justify Tau superiority in aspects that they really shouldn't feasibly have in terms of forging a proper narrative.
>>47132163
>hypno-therapy exists, allowing them to learn and expand on a broad array of subjects faster than anyone today could hope to learn them.
The Tau have memetic databanks in their brains installed since they wee-babies that help them learn by providing information for them to directly process. The collective knowledge of Tau empire are at their fingertips. And like I said, there is no dogma or close-mindedness that would slow their leaning. They will absorb it all like a sponge
>All pilots are of the Air caste and have superior three-dimensional situational awareness to Human pilots and marginally higher acceleration tolerance. This makes them naturally more gifted pilots, but the experience of the best Imperial pilots gives them a hard edge which the Air caste struggles to match.
>>47132236
>And like I said, there is no dogma or close-mindedness that would slow their leaning.
There's little stopping an Astartes doing the same. Only certain aspects of the universe are deemed forbidden to know. Adeptus Mechanicus have always been analysing Xenotech rationally, just refusing to utilize it. Astartes ever since the Great Crusade have shown an ability to break down an enemy, heretical or not, and their tactics in order to counter. The whole "everyone that fights the Tau is retarded," meme is, understandably overblown, but it does originate from a truth that in recent times the Imperium's weaknesses have been exaggerated greatly in order to further heighten the Tau's strengths.
>>47132216
The Tau are here to provide a fresh perspective to the setting. The youthful and hopeful one. They are a nation that advances and progresses with no fear and no care in galaxy filled with dying and dead empires stagnating. They are full of potential and they have yet fully realize it. Will the gimdarkness of the galaxy change their outlook? Will it break them before they fulfill their destiny? Will they ascend to greatness and sweep the empires of old from the galaxy? Will they crumble like all before or will the Tau'va rule until the stars go cold?
The Tau are not the best. The question is can they become the best or not? They just begun their journey and already they show great promise. Are you going cheer them on or are you going ti root for their destruction?
The Tau this way enrich the setting.
>>47132283
Go away, FW hacks.
Your stuff just got retconned.
>>47132315
Right, and I can get behind that, it's a good thing to add, but some of the more recent lore takes this feeling away from their fluff. Dealing with Astartes and the relics of the old with such ease isn't "full of potential," it's more "get out of our way, inferior plebs."
In this I enjoyed the initial addition of the Tau, when they were consistent and had their strengths, flaws and limits, but more recently those strengths have been improved, the weaknesses have almost dissipated and their current limits match the ground forces of all but the Necrontyr.
>>47132330
Thats from the codex not FW.
>>47130807
Tau are all over the place on their innocence and naivete. Sometimes they are masters of secrets, using mind controlling pheromones and genetic engineering and propaganda to conquer and enslave new worlds, while being completely amoral crackpots who are secretly sterilizing, abducting, experimenting on, and snuffing the populations of those worlds.
Other times they are an open arms empire and actually have client races that participate in the empire's functioning and expansion in on-the-level ways.
Sometimes they breed, and sometimes they are entirely tank-bred clones. Sometimes Aun'va is actually patient and wise, and sometimes he's demanding that his best soldiers kill themselves in battle for speaking out of turn.
Tau are suffering from GW cold feet and second guessing. People bitched about how Tau aren't grimdark, and while that attracted some people it made others hate the faction. So GW back-peddled. And the people had been pulled to the Tau for their surface reasons found that their original surface reasons for liking the Tau were shit on by newer fluff, and Tau sales suffered. GW now can't seem to make up it's mind about which way they want to go with them, so they write both simultaneously and the Tau end up being a jumbled mess that nobody likes.
I've heard it said that Tau are the 40k faction for people that don't like the rest of 40k lore. I agree. I prefer Idealistic Tau to Orwellian Tau. I prefer the surface explanations of the idealistic race on the ascent, instead of a dead race returning from the grave, a dying race still full of pride after incredible failure, and a rotting race who are so full of corruption, oppression, and inequality that they are the primary reason the setting is considered "grimdark." I like them because they act as a mirror and a foil for the rest of the lore. If Noblebright is possible, then grimdark is that much darker.
If I wanted and Orwellian race, I'd have chosen the Imperium.
>>47132359
No, it isn't. It from the FW books.
>>47132330
>>47132379
>FW
Really now.
>>47132330
>FW hacks
>Implying GW is any better
Are there still people out there that think the increasing character favouritism, inconsistency and pandering is in any way acceptable? 40k is great as a universe, but the narrative they tell is hit-and-miss and, unfortunately, is beginning to miss more and more often.
>>47132391
My mistake. I remembered reading the exact line from the Aero and Taros FW books. In any case, consider it rectonned and FW are still HACKS.
All of the factions have plot armor. Plot armor succeeds when the plot demands it, and also inexplicably fails when the plot demands it.
Space Marines are the most guilty of this, because the hard soft that should be consistent, such as actual armor or weapon power is the least consistently portrayed across every medium.
>>47130881
>Just because writers claim they have the bestest tactics that doesn't make it true.
I think this exact same shit every time an Imperiumfag tells me why their precious Muh Muhrines should have won any particular conflict against any faction.
Dawn of War III Trailer comes out, people screen cap the Knight jumping at the Wraithknight, and give it HUMANITY FUCK YEAH captions, despite the fact that a few seconds earlier the thing's buddy was cut in half and is still flipping through the air in the frame, and forgetting the context that there are still two more Eldar walkers.
It's like Cynco de Mayo: celebrating a minor victory REAL HARD in a losing conflict.
>>47132315
>Tau progress with no care and fear
>Fire Caste aren't allowed to field strip their guns because that's Earth Caste field
>Water Caste can't make fancy statues because they will either get shot or brainscrubbed if found out
>>47132490
I meant as a race. If the castes are comprised, then it would lead to the return of the Mont'au.
>>47132535
compromised*
>>47132535
I thought you liked to hold up the Farsight Enclaves as proof that the Ethereals' leadership and restrictions on castes and such aren't needed.
>>47132586
I wanted to add "or so the Ethereals claim" but I hesitated because we have no lore of the Farsight Enclave breaking the caste system.
So far Farsight is the only known Caste-breaker/between Spheres in the Enclave. However, he was forgiven by Aun'Va after he forced him to kill his master.
>>47131707
>admiral_ackbar.jpg
Tell me more about these Tau traps...
>>47131538
This mostly just stems from the fact that Kauyon/Mont'ka were lazy. Reading them and reading Taros is like night and day.
>>47132757
The White Scars and Raven Guard chasing Shadowsun around the planet, triggering trap after trap, while this music plays in the background.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg
