Pathfinder General - /pfg/
Battle Owls Edition
Unified /pfg/ link repository:
http://pastebin.com/5F8RNubX
Previous thread: >>47045977
So how do we fix kineticists?
>>47056251
-Give them D10 HD
-Use the burn mechanic from Avant Guard (Astral Construct optional)
-Rewrite some of the wild talents to make the elemental options equally viable
-Give them some way of benefiting from magic weapon enhancement bonuses
-More feat support
That's about it.
>>47056251
That idea was suggested a while ago on /tg/
Burn becomes a pool much like Ki
>Everything that adds burn decreases the pool.
>Gather Power/Supercharge lower the cost
>Infusion specialization/Composite specialization/Metakinesis master all lower cost
>Internal buffer is a pool that allows you to bypass your turn by turn spending limit
>Elemental Overflow kicks in when you spend points ie. spend 3 points at level 6 for the lowest form to spend 7 points to gain highest benefits
This completely removes the non-lethal issue and can keep Con mod as the stat for the pool's modifier. This also opens up easy ports to feats like Extra Ki to increase the Burn pool and eases the mechanical aspect of archetype design (rendering Monk, Unchained Monk, and Ninja as immediate options - but with a little tweaking could easily do a Swashbuckler/Samurai based on Kinetic Blade, a Gunslinger that shoots elemental bullets).
There's also a /tg/ fix someone made that scraps burn entirely - which would be balanced. Warlock from 3.x was effectively a better, no burn Kineticist, and iirc was Tier 4. So its not like removing Burn actually makes the class overpowered or anything.
>>47056251
Dump a bucket of 3.5 warlock on it. I don't give a shit how stupid the elemental flavor has to be.
Burn can fuck off.
Good day, /pfg/
This is my 4th iteration of the Fighter's fix I am working on.
I call it the Fighter's Focus
The concept is based off Fighters being the 'dabbler' class who studies in other fields in order to complement their unique martial style.
Its an additional set of options, aside from bonus feats to make the fighter a more unique class. Please give me your feedback and criticism - its highly appreciated
http://pastebin.com/bd67UHgY
>>47056377
Adding half the fighter's levels to skill ranks still doesn't fix the fact that fighters need at least 6+INT skill ranks per level.
Its an interesting fix though.
>>47056377
Some nice things in here.
Though these are some things that I think aren't worth taking:
> 6th Horse Whistler - Once per day, a fighter may use the mount spell using his fighter level as his caster level.
Buy a wand, not a feat.
>Divine focus and its 1/2 charisma stuff
Keep in mind that this will only ever be +1~+3 because even with this stuff a fighter can't really afford to invest too much in CHA.
> 6th Shield of Faith - Add the fighter's bravery bonus as a divine bonus to AC.
Kinda worthless. Also a bunch of archetypes trade out bravery I think.
> 8th Faith's Favored - Once per day, a fighter may gain an insight bonus equal to half their fighter level to a single d20 roll.
A feat isn't worth a 1/day ability like that.
> 2nd Apprenticeship - Add half their fighter levels to craft and profession skills.
The other focus skill things are decent, but nobody uses these skills.
>>47056506
They don't trade away a bonus feat.
You get them for free, in addition to your bonus feat.
But yeah, thanks for the input. Will fix some of these things.
>>47056424
...hmm. Here's a thought. What if Fighters had the cap on skill points removed? Would allow them to specialize in certain skills, and would allow them earlier access to some prestige classes, maybe.
>>47056009
You are not going to fire it every round. Blood Money is a thing.
>>47056377
>8th Caster's Bane - As an immediate action, a fighter may move at half his movement speed to make an attack of opportunity against an enemy casting a spell or a spell-like ability. This movement does not trigger an attack of opportunity. This counts towards the fighter's normal number of attacks of opportunities.
This is a great idea, but it's a bit too strong.
Imagine an NPC fighter having this and a caster on your side trying to escape it.
Also, how does it interact with defensive casting?
>>47056251
Change Burn into pool points. More support/options for early level, right now there is only 1 good choice for each element at level 1-7.
>>47056356
If you don't want burn, there is overwhelming soul?
>>47056647
>Also, how does it interact with defensive casting?
As it says in the rules, casting defensively doesn't trigger an AoO, so Caster's Bane won't trigger.
>>47056671
AHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>47056621
Do you want to break things at low level?
Because that's how you break things at low level.
>Lvl1 human fighter with 18 int
>3 fcb+7 ranks+3 skill focus+4dex= +17 stealth
>Meanwhile everyone is running around with +0 to +8 perception
>At level 2 you put your next 7 ranks into stealth and have +24 while everyone else has +0 to +9
etc
>>47056716
Oh wait, skill focus will trigger early because you'll have 14 ranks in stealth at level 2, so you'll actually be at +27
>>47056716
That's not just low-level, that's at all levels.
Imagine if he just said 'fuck it' and put ALL HIS RANKS into stealth.
That'd be what, +140 stealth at level 20 from ranks alone.
We have a lot of these rules for a reason.
>>47056377
>http://pastebin.com/bd67UHgY
I don't get the dabbler concept from the fighter, desu. To me it is the weaponmaster class. My issue with it is that it does not do that well enough. To paraphrase 8-bit theater, the fighter knows weapons - and knows them better than anyone else.
My idea was to empower its core features and bring in some tricks from the hero point system. Presuming Combat stamina is allowed for all martials:
- 4+int skill points or use skill groups from Unchained. I'm not giving them as many SPs as stalkers or rangers, because these classes' core concept is more inclined to certain skills, but fighters should have at least as much as cavaliers/barbarians.
- Bravery gives 1/2 class level to saves vs fear and combat stamina pools. You can also spend stamina up to your bravery bonus as an immediate action to get a bonus to any save.
- at higher levels, you can spend stamina to get the effects of a hero point
- weapon training bonuses also apply to any CMB/CMD rolls with this weapon and as an insight bonus to AC vs attacks with those weapons. The bonus to damage is doubled.
- Armor training includes options to actually raise AC and DR (I have not read the armor master handbook, maybe it has that).
I was also thinking about some mid-high level features to patch fighters at that phase of the game.
- Regaining stamina with crits or defeating an enemy
- Can use stamina for temp HP or to lift some conditions.
- Can apply the effects of a coup de grace on critical against a foe with notably lower level or HP
- have a feature or a feat that (a bit like spell perfection) doubles bonuses with a particular weapon (or it could be coded into greater weapon focus/specialization)
- Reroll a missed attack 1/round, possibly as capstone.
Basically, a fighter should be freaking scary to ever be in a fight with and in range of.
I sort of like the option to have a dabbler fighter, but you can do it with the VMCs, the fighter has enough feats to spare 5.
How to make a crossbow-using character with PoW?
Rate my rules draft for an upcoming campaign, /pfg/.
http://pastebin.com/bw5819PN
>>47056839
Are you aware that weapon training does already add to CMB when using that weapon?
>>47056875
>http://pastebin.com/bw5819PN
Would Vital strike get something extra to compete with itirative attacks? If going by the feats themselves, it falls somewhat short.
>>47056900
Some vital strike builds are good enough as is. I'm wary of making them even stronger.
>>47056894
In some games I was in, it was generally assumed that it does not. I wanted to state it upfront.
>>47056910
It DIRECTLY does, because it's a bonus to your attack roll.
ALL bonuses to attack rolls also apply to CMB, provided the bonus is applicable to the weapon being used.
If anyone says otherwise, they are wrong or lying.
Hello, fellow elegan/tg/entlemen, I am in dire need of your advice.
I seek your wisdom because I want to spice up my currently under construction campaign by tossing out of the window the regular feat tree/progression and pulling in the system explained in great detail within this masterpiece (which was originally intended for D&D 3.5 but whatever).
https://www.gitbook.com/book/lokathor/supertome/details
Any advice?
>>47057020
Wrong link, here it is, sorry everyone
https://github.com/Aktariel/awesometome/releases/download/v0.7rev164-final/Tome.Print.rev164.pdf
>>47056251
There's one hell of a lot of good stuff in the Kineticists of Porphyra series. Non-setting dependent despite the name, all the support material Kineticist should have gotten in the first place, and lots of new choices. Only things I add to that are the "d12HD, Burn is a pool, and Kinetic blast has iteratives".
>>47057144
IMO kineticists would work better if the buffer simply started full every day, instead of having to fill it before you go to bed or whenever you remembered telling your DM you did it.
I actually like the burn as a balancing mechanic, it reminds me of how bright wizards did in WAR Online. However, you definitely need a, well, buffer of burn points to work with.
But yeah, KoP sounds great and kineticist really needed more support and a few tweaks. I like it conceptually and am fine with it being a relatively simple "striker"class, it just can really use a bit of polish. I wouldn't even care if it stayed d8, you don't have to have a huge HD.
Kineticist is actually doing OK damage (though not amazing).
https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2015/09/29/bench-pressing-character-creation-by-the-numbers/
They actually stay around green throughout there career. The bad part is that, the class has a really low ceiling (it was intentionall designed to be that way). No matter how you try to optimize the class, you will never reach blue.
>>47057144
Does KoP make any changes to the base class itself? I'm sure I can get my GM to OK anything I'd suggest, but I'd have a much easier time doing so when it's in a book.
>>47057020
As someone who ran a long-lasting Tome game, here's the advice I have to give:
1. Don't allow too much optimisation using non-tome sources. Tome is crazy enough as is and is designed to be roughly on par with super optimised SRD characters and you will rapidly go into crazy town if you allow them to use every other splatbook as well.
2. Use multiple enemies in fights - Tome characters will demolish "boss" enemies with ease, but they have a lot more fun when they have to deal with large numbers of enemies. This doesn't mean you can't use dragons or whatever, it just means that they should have a bunch of minions (and that means actual monsters, not the 4e style).
3. Include a lot more fights in dangerous/exotic environments or with victory conditions that aren't "clear the room of orcs".
4. Don't throw the party against mirrors of opposition/other adventurers unless they've got access to resurrection effects (or they don't mind re-rolling). Tome characters are exceedingly lethal and this is great when fighting monsters, but not as great when fighting players.
5. http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=54924&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=1c8945aea7f91f03d7432842eb027fea Use this thread for monsters, there are some good ones in there and they're designed for Tome characters.
6. Have fun - Tome characters are powerful and you shouldn't ruin the player's fun when they come up with an idea they like. Find a way to give them challenges along the way rather than just pushing them back onto the railroad tracks.
>>47056251
Kineticists use Stamina instead of Burn. What that gives you is:
-A naturally scaling resource that also improves with more Con, but doesn't require it to function
--Also you can boost your pool with a feat if you want to go hard on it
-A resource which renews on a per-encounter basis, though not if encounters come too quickly
-A resource that, when used, doesn't completely destroy the Kineticist's ability to exist for the day
-A resource that retains the thematic idea of pushing one's limits and risking exhaustion
-The ability to gain bonuses from combat feats if the character wants to build that way
-The ability to boost their attack rolls naturally since you can't enchant blasts
>>47057531
... Wow. That actually solves a shitload. Well done.
What if paladins followed the Sikh bro-code?
>>47057843
They'd be fully sikh.
>>47057843
You mean they don't already?
>>47057892
Sikh maaaate
>>47056506
>Buy a wand
>he thinks Fighters can UMD
>>47057912
Do they follow this code?
Be Lawful Good.
Get a manly beard and a glorious turban.
Never go anywhere unarmed.
Don't get drunk.
Don't be a dick.
Give any loot you don't need to the poor who need it more.
Don't go around trying to smite the heathens all the time, since that's being a dick.
>>47057372
Yeah, for me one of the big issue with kineticists is the lack of support options. That is sort of to be expected, since they are a new class and had to divide page count with 5 other ones, but it can be annoying how they are hemmed in in so many ways.
>>47056647
It needs this movement counts against the fighters total movement for the next round. Also it should provoke.
>>47057960
Anyone can UMD if they put enough point into it.
>>47058005
Implying fighters have skill points
>>47057989
>martials getting nice things
Not even once
>>47056875
They are shit
>Some classes might be disallowed for thematic reasons on a case-by-case basis, unless a major refluffing is performed.
Doesn't tell the player anything other then you will just arbitrarily ban a class because 'thematics' if you are going to do something like that you need to list the classes.
>Paragon surge is banned. Forever. As is blood money.
But false focus and Psionic Reformation are okay?
>Craft skill generally uses the “Making Craft Work” rules. DC’s and craft times will be specified by the DM on an item-by-item basis.
This is arbitrary, the rules are already in place for this.
>No companions of any kind (‘any’ kind includes animal companions, familiars, and whatever other similar things there may be) may advance to a higher level than the character’s total character level. Even if the abilities seem to suggest that RAW. Even if that is stated explicitly. No exceptions.
Here lose class features and make specific archetypes literally unplayable, with no return.
>Weapon finesse is a weapon quality rather than a feat. All melee dex-to-damage feats are replaced with DSP deadly agility. Ranged characters without such a class feature may get dex-to-damage in a way specified by the DM on a case-by-case basis.
You are right str needs to be made even worse then dex.
>Combat expertise is given for free as a combat option to any character with at least +1 total BAB (e.g. a wizard would get this at level 2) the same way as drawing a weapon as part of a move action.
Fighting defensively would like a word with you.
>Vigilantes are to be refluffed with second identity class feature removed (no replacement) in most cases (except if a reasonable argument for keeping it is made), if someone wants to play as one.
If you are going to take away the core feature of a class you should just not use the class.
(1/2)
>>47057479
It offers class "Mutations", which are extremely narrow archetypes that affect some of the problem bits. One halves burn damage in exchange for a slight damage nerf, one gives more skill points in exchange for losing the longer gather power functions, and two others I don't remember. There's also the Elemental Scion, which limits you to one element but gives everything at an increased rate. No flat improvements to the class, though.
>>47058219
>Non-core races with 8 or less RP receive a racial Feat as a bonus Feat.
>Races with 20 or more RP will only be allowed on a case-by-case basis after a thorough review and with LA applied as seen fitting for the race in question. Wyrwoods enjoy a blanket ban.
RP is shit, and Wyrdwoods are not even that good, construct traits is literally all they get, that means at 0 hp they die, they can not heal naturally, which means they need magic to heal, and with no con score the only way they get more then their class hd hp a level is to use FCB for one bonus, or toughness.
>To gain ranks in the autohypnosis skill (yes, I'd allow it after some thought), at least half your total character levels have to be in a class capable of manifesting psionic powers. Levels in a prestige class that advance your manifesting ability count as levels in that class
Limiting a skill like this why?
>Psychic (occult) characters will be heavily reviewed and altered as seen fitting so as to prevent abusing mechanics which aren't compatible with non-psychic classes.
Occult classes are largely shit, what is this mechanic abuse you are trying to talk about?
>Psionic races are not allowed, period. Their FCB's might be allowed for Paizo races at my discretion.
Stupid and arbitrary.
>Psionic traits are allowed in general, but the DM reserves the right to not allow particular ones.
Shouldn't this be all traits?
(2/2)
>>47058193
>Because the other martials protecting their caster should be meaningless unless they make a big cube surrounding it.
>>47057484
You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.
What worries me the most is that my players actually *expected* me to railroad them in our last short adventure ("where should we go from here? "), so I'm still trying to figure out how to make them discover their freedom as roleplayers.
I have never allowed anything that isn't in the official sources (i.e. Paizo only), hence my worries about including part of the Tome.
I know all too well a couple of them are filthy minmaxers, but their characters turned out pretty interesting anyway.
As for the environment I was thinking about setting them up in a world where arcane magic doesn't quite work anymore (wild magic rules), and deities are very busy fighting each other to figure out whose fault it is. So divine magic isn't guaranteed to work either.
This turns warlords and bandits into much bigger threats.
Now, if only I could come up with a cunning plan to make the players have legitimate reasons to work together...
> players simultaneously "wake up" in a cave each of them went into to kill a Medusa
> none of them knows each other, in fact they entered the cave years apart from each other (might go for 1d12 years between them)
> they might want to find out how their village(s) is fairing, if their loved ones are still alive, and maybe what caused the permanent petrification to end
Does it sound as a decent adventure hook?
>>47058253
>casters
>needing protection
>>47058219
>Doesn't tell the player anything other then you will just arbitrarily ban a class because 'thematics' if you are going to do something like that you need to list the classes.
We had this for several campaigns with different DM's already. (but this is the first time ever we run with DSP content allowed)
In a nutshell, this means that the players have to justify their fluff rather than just taking whatever.
If they come up with a good explanation, anything is allowed.
If they can't come up with a good explanation, some things may not be allowed.
>>47058232
>Occult classes are largely shit, what is this mechanic abuse you are trying to talk about?
The wording is a bit awkward, but the issue is that occult classes have mechanics often incompatible with non-occult classes. I dislike that part.
>Limiting a skill like this why?
Thematic reasons as above.
>Shouldn't this be all traits?
It's a clarification that they're allowed in the first place.
>Stupid and arbitrary.
These races don't exist in our homebrew world and haven't existed so far, I don't see allowing DSP content as a reason to make them exist. Since we have an active rules lawyer in our group, I felt that should be openly stated.
Anyhow, here are updated rules:
http://pastebin.com/jXWCuT2E
>>47058227
That sounds interesting and I'd love to see how it works out. If anything, the idea of using stamina in place of burn as suggested above could work out really well and I can easily see my DM allowing that as it gives him an excuse to use the stamina rules for once.
>>47058263
>I have never allowed anything that isn't in the official sources (i.e. Paizo only),
Ya do realize that Paizo is unbalanced right from core, and that the company couldn't balance a grape on a plate?
>>47058232
>>47058286
>The wording is a bit awkward, but the issue is that occult classes have mechanics often incompatible with non-occult classes. I dislike that part.
Also, as a note, in our previous games there was simply a blanket ban on occult classes. This is an experiment of sorts.
>>47058219
>Here lose class features and make specific archetypes literally unplayable, with no return.
Also, care to elaborate?
You can have companions, they are just capped at your total character level, if you misread that bit.
This is mostly because one of our players constantly argues about how he should be allowed to get a level 30-ish animal companion by level 16. That kind of rules lawyering gets old fast.
>>47058321
Which is why I'm worried that including 3rd party rules would make it even more f***ed up instead of improving balance.
It's far from perfect, but trying to fix it could turn out to be making it much worse than it is
>>47058286
>These races don't exist in our homebrew world and haven't existed so far, I don't see allowing DSP content as a reason to make them exist. Since we have an active rules lawyer in our group, I felt that should be openly stated.
Seems weird to have all paizo races in one setting, then not have stuff like blues, half giants, elans, ect.
>>47058369
I just reread it and apparently I misread it the first time through my bad.
That also doesn't need to be a house rule it is already literally a rule, that is where the confusion came from.
>>47058263
First of all, Tome does not need optimisation knowledge/skills. If you make a tome character and just pick things that look cool, you'll be as strong as someone who knows what they're doing using the core material (plus a few splatbooks). You can just hand someone a Tome Barbarian and they get to make some choices about their character but they won't have to worry about being underpowered compared to other players.
As for the adventure hook, I find that the best way to give players that kind of freedom is to give them a goal that's going to require lots and lots of work/planning. A lot of the time this means working with the players and discovering what they want to do. "I want to become a member of the landed nobility, with a castle, lands and a wife" is something that you can work with. Otherwise, you can always have a look at old classic dnd adventure paths that were highly regarded and see how they handle things. Having the players all wake up together and discover that they're from different times is a neat hook and could give them a reason to work together - if you want to make things a bit more interesting, multiply the number of years by 10 or more. If the players are all victims of some strange effect, then they have a reason to stick together. If they still just want to fuck off, then you can give them some kind of condition that requires healing/restoration of the kind that requires a quest to earn (if you tell the players they need to amass a big sum of money then they will suddenly become endlessly creative) - and "displaced in time" is incredibly easy to turn into some kind of life-threatening condition that requires powerful magical healing/fixing. You can even have NPCs ask them about what they want to do in-game, and suggest courses of action/point out possible conflicts. A big part of more freeform DMing is the ability to create and come up with neat obstacles for the players to have fun overcoming.
>>47058395
>That also doesn't need to be a house rule it is already literally a rule, that is where the confusion came from.
That rules lawyer constantly argues that it's not how it's RAW. The line is literally written only for him and him alone.
If you can find a RAW passage banning that, I'd be thankful.
>blues, half giants, elans, ect.
Blues or elans are much less generic fantasy than elves or dwarves.
>>47058406
It is usualy in the option they are using what is he doing to try to cheat the system?
Most stuff has wording like this
> The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were 4 levels higher, to a maximum effective druid level equal to your character level. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar that has received this benefit, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature.
>to a maximum effective druid level equal to your character level.
So it really depends on what he is using.
>>47058481
Take, for example, Diabolist.
>This is the diabolist's class level plus her highest caster level. This does not stack with class levels that grant an animal companion.
He argues that if he's a sorcerer 6/diabolist 10, his imp should be as for level 26 (16 caster level + 10 diabolist level).
I disagree with that reading, strongly.
And it's not the only such class, he found like half a dozen other obscure options for this.
>>47058481
It's probably half elf oracle
>>47058219
>Doesn't tell the player anything other then you will just arbitrarily ban a class because 'thematics' if you are going to do something like that you need to list the classes.
Also, a bit more on this.
Our group generally has a tendency of allowing almost anything if the fluff provided by the player is sufficiently cool.
E.g. I already greenlighted Fool's Errand despite it still being in early preview for a player who came up with a cool backstory for it.
>>47058369
>>47058395
>>47058481
>>47058501
>>47058512
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q9f7&page=3?The-ARG-race-restriction-and-favored-class#141
> A character’s effective druid level for determining the abilities of her animal companion (based on Table 3–8 on page 52 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook) cannot increase her animal companion’s Hit Dice above her actual character level + 1.
Your HD+1 is the limit.
>>47058574
Anon, that's the PFS forum. Compton's rulings are only official for PFS play.
>>47058574
That still allows a 16th level character's animal companion for a 12th level character, so I'd prefer keeping to this houserule.
>>47058589
Which is the only one that matter.
If you are playing a Home game then the GM can rule however he want anyway.
>>47057531
Why couldn't Paizo just have done this instead? It makes so much more sense.
>>47058681
That would require competent game design.
>>47058405
That's exactly the kind of feedback/advice I was looking for.
So now I'm thinking: which parts of the "standard" rules should I keep, according to your experience? Because honestly, I'm very tempted to go full Tome.
Also, I'm writing down a short questionnaire with some questions their characters will have to answer in first person well before the first session. This is mainly to get rid of crappy backgrounds and have some more elements to work with, and will include a question about their goals and individual honor codes.
>>47058681
Jason is trying to bully Mark.
>>47058501
It is just shitty wording, if your rules lawyer is actually using shit like that you should tell him to fuck off. "It's in the book" Is not a valid argument.
The obvious RAI is it is supposed to be your highest Casting level class plus diabolist levels incase you took multiple classes, paizo just does not know how to words.
But really your Rules Lawyer sounds like a fucking twat.
If he wants to use vaguely worded rules to do that kind of shit you brain him with the book.
Finding it, laughing about it, is one thing, using it to maximum benefit is just being a shit.
>>47057843
>>47057892
what if an anti-paladin does?are they wicked sikh?
>>47058772
>If he wants to use vaguely worded rules to do that kind of shit you brain him with the book.
Unfortunately, we play online.
>>47058101
You could dip into a spellcasting/skillmonkey class.
Outside of that traits like Dangerously Curious or Pragmatic Activator could work out for a Lore Warden. If you don't have the stats you could bite the bullet and pick up SkillFocus/MagicalAptitude.
>>47056298
Never seen "Avant Guard", and googling it isn't giving me anything. Link, description?
>>47058286
When you handwave things saying "thematic reasons", all anybody sees, reads or hears is "completely at my whim for whatever I like or don't like, but if they know ahead of time they can't be "wrong" for me to call out on".
You aren't putting parameters of what makes a good or bad explanation, which leads one to believe that you'd allow the worst drivel if you liked the girl asking it for example, and would disallow a masterpiece from the guy she's eyeing instead of you at the table.
>>47059549
Seriously, that is mostly for edge cases on stuff that isn't otherwise established as part of our setting already.
E.g. guns are very rare, so a gunslinger should have an elaborate backstory on how they got those guns in the first place.
It's essentially "pls don't do stuff not compatible with our setting, guys".
>>47058681
- Paizo are imo really scared of at-will stuff.
- Paizo are also imo scared of constitution-based casters. See: Witch Doctor, ork.
- Burn was meant to be a serious tradeoff resource. Combat stamina is a pretty much a direct buff to most martials who get it. "If you go to 0 stamina, you are fatigued" is not a huge drawback for pushing your powers. Burn actually requires you to balance how much you get, stamina is just a powerup as long as you start the fight refreshed.
Burn was imo supposed to go with the constitution-based class so you could not pump con up the roof and play an insane HP tank without losing any offense. Maybe Paizo did it wrong, but this is the vibe I am getting off this.
If Kineticists worked off stamina, the benefits they would get from it would be lower. Heck, if combat stamina would apply to their ray attacks, I would say it would be a Tier 1 feat for any kineticist aiming to do damage.
>>47059652
Kineticist was meant to tbe the 70-80's type psychic that caused damage to themselves for spectacularly devastating TK/PK/Pyro attacks (c.f. Carrie, Firestarter, Scanners, The Power, et al). It wasn't meant to be run with standard games.
>>47059495
https://docs.google.com/document/d/19y_V3-_cKBzTYiFwt5M3Tij7ahQoPPt9XLTE1wreV68/edit#heading=h.d6k8i1ul1jjg
It's part of the Psionics Augmented: Occult playtest. Someone more qualified than I would have to tell you more about it, as I haven't really looked into it too much.
>>47059733
Except for the devastating part.
It's no less "meant to be run with standard games" than the Cleric, the Wizard, the Barbarian, the Bard, the Alchemist, the Fighter, the Monk, the Rogue, the Druid, the Paladin, the Ranger, the Swashbuckler, the Cavalier, the Summoner, the Ninja, the Gunslinger, the Oracle, the Sorcerer, the Inquisitor, the Witch, the Magus, the Vigilante and the antipaladin and samurai and arcanist and bloodrager and brawler and hunter and investigator and shaman and skald and slayer and warpriest.
You know what's in the setting and "standard game"?
ALL OF THOSE. All of those and rocket-generating laser scorpions with dual chainguns and forcefields hunting dragonwizards atop crashed starships before some reactor has a meltdown
>>47059652
You get more offense from Burn though... It's +2 damage per burn every 3 level.
>want to try GMing and introduce group to PoW
>the people interested don't want to touch it, and want to play stuff like base Paladin, Oracle, and Sorcerer
>If I use PoW whole hog, the Paladin will get rekt and the casters thoroughly bullied
>even dialing it down, I'll have to make more creatures evil so the Paladin has something to work with.
I haven't even started and already I feel like I've taken burn.
>>47060018
What's stopping you from introducing the party to PoW, even though none of them are PoW?
All you have to do is create a scenario - something quick - that highlights the abilities of Path of War without overwhelming them.
For example, have a quick campaign built around the worrying development in Ye Olde Kingdom that the bandits are becoming organized, and it's revealed some deserters are doing it. The party goes to investigate and they're tasked with wiping out the deserters. Most bandits are bog standard classes, but some of them have Initiating archetypes, and the deserters themselves are full initiators (as befitting a former member of the army.)
>>47060018
Start small with NPCs with Martial Training feats. Give them occasional allies that use PoW but are lower level than them. Befriend and Bro-ness are you friends, and have the PoW usage scale gradually with their comfort level.
>>47060018
>even dialing it down, I'll have to make more creatures evil so the Paladin has something to work with.
Black Saraph users
And encourage him in game even to learn the way of the Silver Crane to combat them.
>>47058944
He sounds like a dick either way.
Don't hide it from me, /pfg/.
Tell me abouthow your character's family feels about his adventuring career.
>>47060268
>his mom
Is proud of him, but hopes he comes back to show her the bride (or groom if he swings that way).So far he hasn't expressed open interest in /anyone/, and he's ten years older now than his parents were when they met.
>his dad
Is proud of him, but sometimes wishes the boy would stop worrying so much about how they're doing back home and just go kill a Linnorm or something.
>his siblings
Doesn't have any.
>>47060268
They don't know, they still think he's in Halgrim establishing himself as a merchant.
His uncle knows what's going on though, and so far he seems to understand my character's decision - after all, every Ulfen yearns to go on at least one viking!
>>47060268
Proud that he's still serving in military with distinction like his forebears
>>47060268
"Where did we go wrong" mostly.
Sure they appreciate that he still takes the time to craft things and sell them, but he's gone from "of course we teach our children that killing is wrong" to "annihilate all hostile forces on sector grid" and treating the literal gutting of ancient god heralds for parts as totally normal now.
You can't just watch what you still call "your little scholar" singlehandedly slaughter entire hordes with heavy weaponry and not wonder where you failed
What's the Triple Intensified Shocking Grasp Magus build look like?
Saw it mentioned earlier.
>>47060075
>>47060078
I still fully intend to put PoW stuff into it, I just have to be a little more careful now and can't just directly push things too hard.
Having mind controlled initiators in the spooky fey forest is more like a boss encounter, giving that band of elite kobold scouts levels in hidden blade suddenly becomes far more deadly, and having that half-dragon dungeon boss be a Brutal Slayer/Bushiturns into a much, much bigger danger. Workable danger, of course, but it'll have to be tuned as I get experience. Hell, I'm overreacting again and everyone's probably have a jolly good time.
Mender Vitalist DMPC in a party with three PC's Y/N? I'm wary of making a shitty DMPC and stealing the spotlight, but I feel they'll need at least a healbot to go through the AP (Curse of the Crimson Throne) smoothly.
>>47060514
Vitalist is exactly the kind of healbot that could steal the spotlight. They are REALLY. REALLY good.
>>47060268
They're definitely proud of his efficiency with which he isavenging their deaths.
>>47060537
The party composition is pretty high-powered, though. One will be a Fool's Errand Warlord, another wants to go a loads-a-simulacrums alchemist, the third wants to be Hidden Blade Rogue.
That's why I felt a Vitalist would be appropriate.
>>47060268
>Father
Dead.
>Mother
Dead.
>Brother
Dead.This isn't actually a typical murderhobo dead family, they died of old age since he's a middle-aged aasimar and they were already old when he was born.
They'd probably be a mixture of pride and worry at their son becoming the (technically) second most powerful person in Minkai.
>>47059733
I think their inspiration had a lot more to deal with the Avatar series or the 3.0/3.5 Pyrokineticist PrC. I definitely do not see why they would put a class that was not allowed to be run in standard games as, well, a player class in a book with other extra player classes.
Burn rewards you a bit when you go wild, but it wasn't fully balanced out imo. A few minor tweaks and some more support would have gone a long way to make kineticists feel better.
>>47060576
Let them require a little sleeping-things-off anyways.
The Vitalist's main power is that they do this shit in combat with utmost efficiency. No other class can be a combat healer and NOT be doing exactly the opposite of what they should be doing if they want to help the party.
They're also "party-central" due to the collective they'll be maintaining.
>>47060576
>>47060537
As for why I think a healbot would be needed for that party: I intend to give most martial enemies PoW abilities.
>>47060268
His mother is worried for his safetyand his daughter'sbut just glad he's not moping about anymore. She does hope he hooks up with one of the female PCs, because she really wants him to get over the last attempt at having a spouse.
His dad is assumed dead, because nobody's seen him for years and he fucked off while his Half-Elf son was still a toddler. You'd think the elf would be the irresponsible parent.
He hasn't had contact with the rest of his family in years, though his uncle did promise to visit again.Said uncle is currently a corpse in a firepelt den.
>>47060514
You don't need four characters to cleave your way through Curse of the Crimson Throne smoothly.
Especially if the three characters are high-powered.
If you feel that healing will be an issue (and it shouldn't be), just toss them a wand of Cure Light Wound or Infernal/Celestial Healing.
Otherwise, there are a bunch of NPCs that could come up and help the party sporadically when times get rough (a redempted Grau Soldado, Trinia Sabor, Ishiani Dhatri...)
>>47060653
Be *extremely* careful there. One cannot counter a natural 20 for example, so while that's a quick way to kill off one random enemy in a fight, PCs are one nat-20 away from many initiators simply one-shotting them. "There's a 5% chance you die then and there" is very different when it's "everytime an enemy rolls in this campaign" compared to "when you attack this inconsequential faceless mook"
Not that it's necessarily a bad idea, just keep in mind that these kinds of abilities, much like spellcasting, drastically increase the effective CR of the target.
Since Pathfinder becomes rocket tag at mid levels, "Party vs PoW party" is a nuclear option game, so try to focus more on larger numbers of much lower initiators.
>>47060692
I suppose you may as well be right. I'll discuss it with them further.
They were mostly okay when I suggested the vitalist idea.
>>47060708
I know. Most mooks will have Martial Training the feat and maybe a couple upgrades of it. It's the rarer and more important enemies which will have actual initiator classes.
>>47060268
On the one hand, his parents always hoped he'd grow out of the whole "I want to be an awesome hero with a kickass robot mount" phase and find honest work in the tunnels. On the other, he's actually put a lot of hard work into making his dream a reality, and they're proud of him, even if they're also incredibly worried-the surface can be a dangerous place for a ratfolk.
His dozen-or-so younger siblings think he's the coolest guy ever, though.
>>47060753
Hmm, imo it would not make sense for mooks to get martial training unless it is really common in the setting. I´d save it for encounters that are meant to be memorable, and have enemy initiators for encounters that are meant to be showcases, even if they are not boss fights.
Is there a martial discipline for siege weapons yet?
>>47060841
>His dozen-or-so younger siblings think he's the coolest guy ever, though.
That's adorable
>>47060866
No, and they're horribly incompatible with siege even when ranged-focused for the most part.
Use WGA Heavy, at least those get +2 from Broken Blade.
>>47060846
The thing is, PoW is generally refluffed as just being a skilled fighter, instead of actually studying a martial discipline from some kind of an organisation.
Thus, it makes sense for everyone to have at least some degree of PoW abilities.
>>47058406
>>blue goblins are less muh generic fantasy than green goblins
yeah ok bub
>>47060997
This is how its own book presents it, but in the context of an existing setting, that isn´t likely to be the case. Look, the players were asked if they wanted to play with PoW. They very clearly stated they did not. In that case, having mooks (as in, not particularly noteworthy fighters) have PoW stuff indicates that it is so common that every fighter should have it and it goes with the "standard package," so to speak - which implies PCs should have it. On that background, the assumption that every decent warrior has PoW stuff strikes me as poor form towards the players, like the GM trying to push his or her favourite system on them instead of bringing a bit for them to sample.
Some people LIKE the sort of play a barbarian, slayer and dammit, even a fighter plays, even if the think the classes can be made stronger. Shoving PoW down everyone´s throat does not necessarily make for a fun game for everyone involved. I am all for showcasing PoW, but not on mooks unless it is meant to be this sort of game.
>>47060587
Nieces and Nephews? Illegitimate children? Legitimate children?
>>47061123
>Look, the players were asked if they wanted to play with PoW. They very clearly stated they did not
Wait, what?
I'm this person, you've mistaken me for someone else:
>>47060576
>The party composition is pretty high-powered, though. One will be a Fool's Errand Warlord, another wants to go a loads-a-simulacrums alchemist, the third wants to be Hidden Blade Rogue.
>That's why I felt a Vitalist would be appropriate.
>>47060997
>>47061123
>tfw Path of War has ruined you to 1pp martials
>tfw it won't take responsibility
>tfw playing a Slayer or Barbarian just doesn't feel the same anymore.
>>47061142
>47060018
Hm, I thought this was still about the situation described in 47060018. MB if this had to do with another case.
>>47061123
Actually it SHOULD be likely, but only at the very lowest level.
Think those martial arts novels, etc. Anyone with the slightest bit of combat or martial training will at least probably have a smidgen of something. Either a level 1 stance, OR a strike, counter or boost.
Basically "everyone" is at least minimally trained in something in some way, but they're hindered by "normal person" stats and so far behind the curve that to any real practitioner their initiating can't even be called a mockery of any kind of skill or training in the least.
However, I do agree with you that if the players were all clear about wanting nothing to do with the system, and it's part of the standard package that the players should thus have because of its ubiquity, then there's a problem, as it's a mechanic being forced upon them that they wanted nothing to do with.
>>47061238
>>47061238
>Actually it SHOULD be likely, but only at the very lowest level.
>Think those martial arts novels, etc. Anyone with the slightest bit of combat or martial training will at least probably have a smidgen of something. Either a level 1 stance, OR a strike, counter or boost.
That's why I mentioned Martial Training I.
>>47061238
>However, I do agree with you that if the players were all clear about wanting nothing to do with the system, and it's part of the standard package that the players should thus have because of its ubiquity, then there's a problem, as it's a mechanic being forced upon them that they wanted nothing to do with.
Ugh, see this:
>>47061142
>>47061238
If it is everyone, then every martial class should come with these stock. PCs with martial classes are meant to be trained warriors. They are meant to be awesome at their job.
I was the guy from above, and I thought it was about the group which wanted to play "stuff like base Paladin, Oracle, and Sorcerer". In that case, throwing around PoW stuff everywhere wouldn´t be cool. In the Warlord, Alchemist and HB Rogue case, yeah, I can see it being frequent.
>>47061123
Speak for yourself. Barbarians work just fine without any fancy-shmancy maneuvers.
>>47061600
But works extra better with Primal Fury Stances and Maneuvers.
I don't know why I even bother checking the paizo forums anymore. Any post that heavily criticizes the work or that goes heavily against the dev's political line of thinking either gets deleted without any notice, or gets added to stuff that should be deleted and marked as such when it's a legitimate argument.
Question: A recent group of mine got TPK'd by an enemy I don't recognize. It was some animated suit of armor that may or may not be an undead knight of some sort. When we killed it, it split in two and the two revived with slightly less HP that the original, and it could apparently keep doing this ad infinitum.
It's not a part of Half-Dead City, which we were playing, and I'd like to know if it's something I just missed or if our DM homebrewed it.
>>47061956
Welcome back
>>47061600
Hey, I was the one arguing that martials shouldn´t all need maneuvers or stances :P . All that anonymity makes things confusing at times.
That said, I apologize for my earlier confusion of the two games and the mini-tirade.
>>47060144
>>47061741
Yeah, but they're not doomed 5ever if they don't bother.
>>47062064
doesn't sound familiar... not as an armor for sure...
>>47061956
It's not just the forums. They routinely delete negative reviews of products because devs complain about them.
>>47062151
With no recovery that looks pretty solid and scary.
I would dump the shadow feather strike though 4d6+2 profane damage could wreck the paladin in short order as a touch attack, its 9-39 damage from one attack with an average of 22.
Every time I play or GM for PoW I get a sense of them being disproportionately powered in the wrong way.
Their in combat utility is too high (higher than a full caster who isn't gaming the system), and their out of combat utility too low (barely higher than a base martial). There is a problem here.
The symptoms are easy to see when taking a step back. Initiator NPCs are unusable against PCs because they're too deadly. There is essentially no way to stop a PoW character without also being PoW (where as a caster can be for instance counter spelled with minimum investment, or with a martial who knows what they're doing strike the caster, admittedly the second one is a bad option but it exists). For PoW if it is possible to be hit it will occur due to the large amount of repositioning and short range teleportation.
PoW characters need more OOC utility and not as much in combat.
>>47062623
>Initiator NPCs are unusable against PCs
>There is essentially no way to stop a PoW character without also being PoW
lol
>>47062623
I have made initiators with great out of combat utility, it is all about what you pick and what you keep ready.
If you build a pow character optimized to do combat and only combat it will do combat really well, same thing with a caster. If you don't optimize you will be strong but not overwhelmingly so, same as a caster.
>>47062668
Tell me then how to do so? You can't stop a strike from hitting you unless you have a counter to. Miss chances have numerous stances that counter them, there are boosts that will teleport you next to the enemy.
How do you stop the strike?
>>47062679
What were your choices for OOC. Some stances can help but by no means are they designed to do it.
>>47059652
Stamina does work with their ray attacks, it's just a boost to their To-hit at a stamina cost with a 1-1 ratio, capping at +5. It doesn't boost their damage.
>>47062710
You don't get hit, you dumb nerd. You have miss chances, AC, saves, etc. that protect you.
>>47059652
Witch doctor Orc was broken as shit.
>>47062727
The strike with teleport, leaping dragon, stance that gave heal ranks to hide, stance that gives fly, I forget what all I had off hand but I know those were among them.
>>47062763
Miss chances have numerous things that counter them, mainly stances that the PoW character should have.
AC doesn't scale fast enough to matter. The initiator's to hit will be too high. Unless you're trying to imply AC scales well enough, it's a known fact that it doesn't.
>>47062794
Stealth, flight, and teleportation makes you a little better than a base martial. You don't even scratch the surface of caster utility.
>>47062797
It does if you put effort into it.
>>47062810
Then you have skills.
>>47060268
They're looking down from the outer realms, happy that he's carrying out the family business ofbeing a dickass thief
>>47062810
And you should not have as much utility as a caster, casters have too much utility.
I would be very unhappy if PoW had mind rape maneuvers that turned people into your meat puppets, or alter reality reality stance that allows you to do the insane utility that shit like wish has.
>>47062816
It really doesn't. Even at maximum investment its beaten by mere heavy investment into hit.
Nearly all the AC items are countered by a brilliant energy weapon even if you did hyper invest.
Really tell me your AC calculation to put you out of reach. I would like to see.
>>47062830
Skills are not as nearly important to utility as casting because everyone has skills. It's what your class can uniquely accomplish and the few stances don't cover things.
How does damage/ac/everything else scale? I'm being dragged into a pvp fight so someone can learn the system. Fighters at 20 one shot wizards at 20? Bards? All that sort of thing. What about magi? Can they bomb things well? How useless is healing?
>>47062867
I bet you're one of those idiots who thinks that AC needs to provide more than a 50% chance. Your level+20. That's all the AC you need.
>>47060268
Character 1: Happy that he is sending funds home to help them out, hoping he stays safe.
Character 2: Abandoned because magic bad in setting so probably would hope for their spawn to die.
>>47062845
I think it has gone too far on the other direction. The hard spell list and class feature strike a good balance between in combat and out of combat in my opinion.
>>47062879
Are you familiar with the tier system?
Martials are tier 3.
>>47062889
Show me your calculations. A to hit at level 20 for an initiator can easily be 50-60.
Has anyone here ever tried to make a campaign, or at least want to join a campaign, built around the party developing a business and getting embroiled in mercantile intrigue? Something like Saltspit has captured my imagination for the past week and I can't shake the desire to find and join a campaign built around it.
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tale_of_an_Industrious_Rogue,_Part_I
>>47062867
Brilliant Energy only ignores Armor and Shield bonuses, right? So it's only an issue against people who have built for high AC through heavy armor.
>>47062920
Im saying they are disproportionate compared to even tier 3 casters.
>>47062929
oh no, it's a moron who thinks pathfinder is about PVP
hidden
goodbye
>>47056079
What are some good items for animal companions? preferablly cheap as I will have a lot of them. Staples. hidden gems, etc.
No headband slot items please.
>>47062914
We need this npcs help? Please excuse me well I cast Dominate Monster on him.
Oh this guy is the BBEG? Excuse me well I test every save he has then target the lowest one with save or suck.
>>47062956
What is your companion, and what do you intend for it to be doing?
>>47062949
Yes because you never fight anything with PC class levels. What are you, a retard?
>>47062977
Bards don't do that though. Bards have a good utility list.
>>47062370
It's why the reviews are mostly highly positive.
Even when it's the Iomedae Incident book.
>>47063023
Bard is also not a full caster.
And has Dominate person as a 4th level spell.
Bard has plenty of save or suck options just not as many as the full caster.
Casters have too much utility they can answer any problem when built even semi-competently.
I'm considering playing a battle cleric.
Should I go with a cleric/martial dip (considering armored hulk or regular fighter) or warpriest?
>>47063113
So where do you believe the proper level of in combat and out of combat utility should be? Using examples barring system abuse.
>>47062943
sounds like a nat armor specalist can laugh off scrubs with that then.
you're looking at AC ac then you have 20 natural armor alone. Synth summoners would also have high nat armor. maybe druids second best. with iron skin thats an additional 5-7 AC
at level 20 thats 23 nat armor for an anklyosauras, they'll have 4 dex unmodified. -1 from size. you're looking at 36 armor from that shit alone. Heaven forbid you invest in deflection and other AC bonuses. overall though BE is fucking amazing and can trivialize builds that can't undead form for a few rounds. this AC build is nice too because it's not easy to ignore something that drops a daze save for every hit. Against low fort it's monstrous and against high, a single poor roll in a combat is normally enough.
>>47062977
A lot of them. a couple are reach based shut down/defensive attackers. They both use tail attacks. then two velociraptors, theyre a bit more squishy becuase their feat choice isn't 100% aggressive but instead gives them back line or out of combat support options (about 3 feats invested each for that purpose). then two rocs, for flying goodness. Each of the companions has access to a different condition type, not counting access to skirmisher tricks, and 2 floating feats for teamwork distribution along with outflank. Most of them can squeeze in combat reflexes.
>>47063195
Yeah even with that AC you're easily in the to hit range of any competently built character. You need to have a 60 or so AC after brilliant energy to be even 50% sure you won't get hit.
>>47063195
Just don't forget that Brilliant Energy *IS* a retard waste of a +4. Truly scrubs are what use it.
Plenty of things will laugh at your natural armor the same as they laugh at the armor and shield as well.
Plenty of other things don't even target one's AC.
>>47057144
Explain more about what you did to change burn into a pool. Is it just a straight conversion or did you have to tweak other things to make it work? Also, how did giving the blast iteratives effect things? I'm sure it wasn't too powerful, but did it help a lot for their weak damage?
>>47063226
A sleeping goddess character doesn't invest in brilliant energy. He makes a soul blade with it whenever he feels like it'll help more.
>>47062727
Some tips for using maneuvers outside of combat:
1. Most immobile objects (including walls, ceilings and floors) have an AC of 5.
2. Many stances provide additional mobility and utility. New movement modes like flight, swim, burrow. Additional senses like see invisibility. Constant bonuses to AC, DR and Saves work to protect against traps and obstacles.
3. Being encouraged to spread around your skill points means you're more likely to have useful skills on hand.
4. Class features that provide bonuses for teamwork, reward selecting noncombat feats, and encourage focus on skills.
Using Path of War classes and maneuvers isn't as fire and forget as spells, it takes some level of creativity and lateral thinking, but there's a surprising amount you can do. Your focus is still going to be combat, but you're nowhere near as hamstrung OOC as most 1st party noncasters.
3.
>>47062413
It doesn't always have it readied.
If a DM is feeling nervous about this encounter, the owlbear can just have the boosts readied.
I listed it on there so that a mage couldn't simply levitate or fly out of the way of danger.
>>47063261
Even saying all this you don't even approach caster utility, even in a good day.
>>47063261
It's hilarious how often people forget that a locked door can easily be opened by means other than some lockpicks
>>47063261
Elric, question, what was the reasoning behind giving Mystics their Font of Animus at level 15? By that level most of the out-of-combat utility that glyphs could provide can be easily given by other stuff, and out of a sudden you get 7+ uses of an ability that would've been far more useful if you'd been getting one daily use at a time every few levels.
>>47063340
My lockpick is and always has been an adamantine sword.
>>47063301
And? The only problem I've had any difficulty solving as an initiator was fighting a Bat Swarm at level 3. No AoE effects makes that a no win situation, but outside of that I've found the creative application of maneuvers, skills and class features to be more than sufficient for solving nearly every problem, and generally more engaging than than looking up the appropriate spell on the PRD.
>>47063174
Just go straight Cleric.
>http://zenithgames.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-comprehensive-pathfinder-guides.html
>https://docs.google.com/document/d/1W6dHso4mjE4WbO02366fY2YEjhP1pyR8gJvW6bqJILg/edit?hl=en&pref=2&pli=1
The fuck is hit dice? it's said you cant have more rank in the skill than your hit dice. I googled it and it says that hit die is just total character level. Why would they call it hit die than, what the fuck?
>>47063223
Most Ac responses just aren't going to be single character builds unfortunately. It's very easy to thwart BE, but you can't really rely on a single tank build to solve that problem unless you have a synth summoner, as flexible evolution point spending, High nat armor, basically is the select answer to this. The best way to thwart BE weapons other than being the class that basically does it for you, is to play parry build characters or evasive build characters. Dimensional dervish is particularly potent. Other than that, theres body gaurd classes which perform very very well. Which gaurd is probably the most notable, as with arcane strike, a trait, you're looking at an additional 10 ac on a single target and another 9ish floating on top, functional against BE.
The toolkit is just so diverse that you really can't plan around saying "an ac tank can best BE" because it depends entirely on the kind of tank and almost all of them are individually worthwhile for their own varied strengths. Most of the time though enemies will tend to hit well with their first attack anyway. A lot of the AC game for competent encounter design is to fractionally negate imperatives.
>>47063226
best use of BE is on IUS body wraps.
>>47063392
Because creatures with no class levels use hit dice to measure their advancement. Dragons use d12s, Plants use d8s, etc.
>>47063392
Hit die is the total number of die you have that determines your HP.
It's listed that way for monsters with PC levels or PCs with templates
>>47063392
Legacy, mostly.
"Creature" and "character" mean the same thing, but one is used when talking about monsters and the other when talking about not-monsters, even though each can explicitly use stuff that talks about the other.
Hit dice and character level are the same deal, one is used for monsters and the other for not-monsters.
Back in older editions of D&D, there was a difference (I think). 3.5 didn't have any difference, but used both terms. Pathfinder inherited that.
>>47063340
Or bypassed entirely with the right Veiled Moon or Unquiet Grave maneuver.
>>47060268
She's going raiding, pillaging, and looting while showing off her superior18 CONgenes; they couldn't be happier for her.
>>47060268
Heh, I'm lame; orphan whose only family is a sister in a coma. Le cliches! Le edges!
>>47061741
The lack of any Rage Powers beyond 2nd level and whatever you shell out for from your own feats actually shrinks the initiator/non-initiator gap quite a bit, a lot more than Myrmidon compared to a normal Fighter.
... Also, why is it that only the partial initiators have options for a Full-BAB Wisdom-based initiator? Stalker and Mystic don't have full-BAB, but Barbarian and Fighter don't have full-initiating.
>>47063576
Ordained Defender (Warder) and Medic are Wisdom based, but Medic isntt out yet.
I'm working on a setting where each Path of War and Path of War: Expanded is a Clan, and have a specific Guardian Animal/Magical Beast, sort like a Zodiac.
So far I have this:
Black Seraph -
Broken Blade -
Cursed Razor Spider
Elemental Flux Peacock
Eternal Guardian Griffon
Golden Lion Lion
Iron Tortoise Turtle
Mithral Current Triton
Piercing Thunder Rhino
Primal Fury Tiger
Riven Hourglass -
Scarlet Throne Scorpion
Shattered Mirror -
Silver Crane Crane
Solar Wind -
Steel Serpent Serpent
Tempest Gale Hawk
Thrashing Dragon Dragon
Veiled Moon Bat
What do you think, anon?
>>47063645
Medic's also not full-BAB, but I'll admit that I totally forgot about Ordained Defenders.
>>47062977
Anything so far?
>>47063501
There's a certain "I don't know what"* to rocket-assisted dynamic entry though.
*that's french for "Je ne sais quoi"
>>47063649
Black Seraph- Raven
Broken Blade- Bulette
Riven Hourglass- Blink Dog
Shattered Mirror- Displacer Beast
Solar Wind- Phoenix
Idk, just some thoughts.
>>47063178
Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, Binder
>>47063301
Good. Casters have too much utility.
>>47063759
Nice ideas, thanks.
>>47063649
Black Seraph is Bear
Broken Blade is Gorilla
Riven Hourglass is Butterfly
Shattered Mirror is Octopus
Solar Wind is Wasp
Unquiet Grave is Raven or Vulture
>>47063818
Bears? Raven makes more sense because it's usually linked to death and decay.
>>47063818
>>47063759
Broken Blade should be a Mantis Shrimp.
>>47063890
Or a Praying Mantis. You know, Kung Fu shit.
>>47063818
Don't forget these should always have one or two cases of "WHAT, WHY", because all of those old systems and religions had some screwy logic.
>RH should be hummingbird.
>Broken Blade is Boar
>Silver Crane isn't even a Crane, it's a Seagull
>Tempest Gale is a Crane
>Solar Wind is a fiery snake
>Veiled Moon is an Owl
>Black Seraph is a Penguin
>Shattered Mirror is a Jellyfish
>Cursed Razor is a Grey cat. Not a black one
>Steel Serpent is a Spider
Is the backround skill alternate rules worth using? I'm interested in running with it, if only because I hate how a lot of classes get utterly shit on and can't get any fluff skills, but at the same time I don't know if there's something I'm missing about it.
>had players fight dragon
>dragon wore his hoard as wealth rather than as a pile of gold
>covered in magic items
>fought smartly
>only engaged the party when it thought it could kill a party member
>its lair was designed for it to fight inside of
>once the players reached the dragon it fought until it was concerned for its health, cast anti-magic field, and ate the party while the party's gear was turned off
was a good day
>>47064097
It's cool and don't break anything.
>>47063953
Those make total sense though.
Hummingbirds are under a constant haste spell
Boars are classically known as extremely aggressive and destructive
Seagulls are white, winged birds and were protected creatures in ancient mayan and aztec cultures
Cranes are known for their ability to accurately and swiftly spear fish with their beaks and their long neck gives them great range
Snakes spit venom, and it's on fire. Basically quetzocoatl there.
Owls are insanely quiet and stealthy predators and often have ties to wisdom and things "man was not meant to know"
Penguins are black and white, and emperor penguins are considered to have a regal bearing. They symbolize black seraph's savagery being chained by a noble and lawful attitude.
Jellyfish are completely alien and strange, they're often transparent and carry deadly venom that can surprise the unwary. Totally unpredictabel, just like Shattered Mirror
Grey represents the color of evening, shadows, and mist. Cats are known to be powerful in the underworld and to curse individuals that they don't like.
Spiders are stealthy, venomous, and tough. They represent the best qualities of a Steel Serpent practicioner
>>47064097
It's especially valuable for the martial classes, let your fighter have something he can fucking know or do.
>>47064120
What was the party's level and the dragon's CR?
>>47064097
I think background skills might be the best set of alternate rules to come out of Unchained. Which is kind of sad, honestly.
>>47064157
Oh yes, I wasn't saying all of those make no sense, I just slipped a few in there.
The crane school doesn't have a crane, tempest gale has a crane.
The serpent school doesn't have a serpent, because solar wind already had a serpent.
For most of the rest, they were suggestions for what would work well. Glad you like'em.
>>47063649
Fool's Errand should be a centipede, they got the whole climb and adaptability aspects.
>>47064190
I was actually trying to expand on the joke by providing weird logic justifications for them.
>>47064190
>>47064220
Forgot my trip.
>>47064120
Then the party chainsawed through its stomach from the inside.
>>47064220
Works though.
The "slip ups" like the crane and crane are the kind of thing kids would ask about reading history books centuries from then, while the explanations hold up for themselves on individual schools (it's not like they got together for this right?) and it all seems perfectly reasonable to the people of the epoch.
The region doesn't even *have* jellyfish; the creators of Shattered Mirror were trying to make a "living crystal ball" to represent - in their eyes - its nigh-omniscient rainbowness or something.
PoW question:
Would you consider Path of War classes to be associated classes for anyone with racial HD? On one hand, they're like spellcasters. On the other, they are good at combat.
>>47064349
Just because you have toughness from your species doesn't mean you've learned martial arts.
>>47064289
It also works if the disciplines were only codified centuries later under a unified name, whereas previously they might have been called a hundred different names. "Silver Crane" is only the modern name of what could have been called "The Healing Artes of the Angels", "Hestia's Grace", or even something as simple as "White Magic".
>>47064349
Like the monsters from Tome of Battle?
Serious question, is there anything alchemists can't be built to do?
>>47064371
My only concern is encounters that are challenging but not overwhelming. Is a Fire Giant with 10 levels of Mystic Mystic CR 15 or CR 20? Especially since his racial hit dice are adding +7 to his initiating level (which means potential access to level 9 maneuvers).
>>47064435
I sold my hard copy years ago and the portable hard drive the PDF is on is in a place that's a pain in the ass to get. Apologies for lack of effort, but how did that work back then?
>>47064402
Or quite simply, it WAS silver crane, the 'white and silver' bird was their symbol, maybe it had been the founder's faithful animal companion or something, and to everyone around there it made total sense.
Many of these would have been ignorant of eachother's existance if too distant, or possibly rivals, so you also add in the chance that a name, symbol, etc was 'stolen' or forced to change after some great defeat, or even in-school politics causing things to get fucked around...
A few inconsistencies compared to if it was the typical "everything fits 'perfectly' in the blandest way" design by committee opens the fluff up to containing many answers and having character and life to it.
>>47064561Love
>>47064588
have you never seen the nutty professor? that's like THE thing alchemists can do
>>47064562 (Samefag)
I may have used the wrong terminology in my original post >>47064349
I meant to say are Initiating classed considere "Key" classes. See this link: >>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-advancement
and go to adding class levels as I know a lot of Pathfinder DMs I know weren't aware of this either.
>>47064561
They don't do party face, necromancy, or archery very well. You need investigator for that.
>>47064633
If you've been anywhere near pathfinder for any length of time you should know that you really ought to take 90% of the devs "rules" and "advice" with a whole lot of salt.
>>47064641
two things
- investigator is just alchemist
- alchemist does pretty solid necromancy with boneshard bomb, much better than investigator at any rate which gets literally nothing
>>47064641
Eh, one of the traits for Diplomacy as a class skill and INT to social rolls, and they can work as a face.
>>47064641
Alchemists make fantastic archers.
>>47064562
They didn't have instructions on how to make your own, but it looks like their Initiator Levels equaled their HD.
They got a maneuver every level and a stance at about every third level.
The ones in ToB didn't have class levels.
>>47064673
>boneshard bomb
>only makes generic skeletons
>has to be the direct cause of death to work, can't animate corpses
>dread investigator
>gets actual animate dead as a 3rd-level extract, as well as the lesser version as 2nd-level for earlier access to undead than any non-divine
>can make any type of undead he wants (get cucked, reanimator archetype)
>>47064674
That's not a function of the class; anyone can take traits, and you've got more ability scores to cover than other Int-based classes that can focus it. Investigator can get actual bonuses from inspiration, at will with a talent.
>>47064694
Not really? 3/4 BAB, no bonus feats, mutagen is worse for it than rage (which itself wasn't good until an archetype made it Str/Dex), no damage boosts that don't limit you to single shots...
>>47064561
Not really. An investigator can do skill monkey/party face better, but that class is... Basically just a variant alchemist anyway.
>>47064641
>>47064927
Anon, alchemists make good archers because if you're focusing on bombs, chances are you'll have the feats for archery (PB Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, etc) ANYWAY, so why the fuck not also have a bow in case you want to conserve bombs? Granted, this assumes you're playing an elf/half-elf, but the point still stands.
>>47064927
dread investigator is horrible, you completely stunt your inspiration and studied combat gain (aka the two reasons you play investigator)
generic skeletons are the only undead worth creating and while it needs to be the cause of death, you can just bomb people bleeding out (or with low HP, since it stacks with other bomb enhancements) and spend your extract slots on things that are actually useful
it also doesn't cost you tons and tons of spell components and doesn't count as an evil action by RAW
>you will never play in an all alchemist/investigator party
>you will never play in a gestalt where everyone takes alchemist/investigator
>you will never have a campaign where alchemy is the dominant form of "magic", with all the regular casters as anomalies
It hurts.
>>47063759
when is >>47060866 going to be fixed?
>>47065141
Easy. Just pump your strength score and take Catch off guard. You can now use siege weapons with any discipline.
>>47065011
>Anon, alchemists make good archers because if you're focusing on bombs, chances are you'll have the feats for archery (PB Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, etc) ANYWAY, so why the fuck not also have a bow in case you want to conserve bombs? Granted, this assumes you're playing an elf/half-elf, but the point still stands.
I don't really consider taking the feats enough to be a good archer. Would a rogue with those feats be a good archer? Would a magus (non-Eldritch-Archer)?
And, yeah, proficiency fucks you up too. Every feat spent is a discovery lost, and bombers are better off going for stuff like Stink/Void Bomb than trying to nova anyway.
>>47065018
Dread Investigator DELAYS inspiration and studied combat, but there's no penalty to either once you've got them (penalizes studied strike but nobody uses that joke of a feature anyway).
You play a normal investigator until 4th, then retrain into the archetype: ta-da, inspiration doesn't change at all, and you've just put off studied combat a bit in exchange for skellie minions who will contribute more than it would at low levels. At 7th, you're on top of the world and have nothing but a talent slot lost for all you've gained.
>generic skeletons are the only undead worth creating
What are bloody/elemental/mudra skeletons, what are fast/plague zombies, what are frostfallen, what are isitoqs and beheaded, what is necrocrafting? Git gud, you embarrassment to Urgathoa.
>>47065018
>doesn't count as an evil action by RAW
Because RAW has so much to do with alignment arguments, right? I'm sure everyone who's ever argued against non-evil necromancers were just really devoted to what the book says, not tired of your "I'm so dark and edgy but totally neutral haha" characters.
>>47060866
Go Half-Orc Myrmidon Fighter+the new archetype from Lords of the Wild, get the Bloodforge feat for Powerful Build (Can't remember the name), and pickup a Huge mithral heavy crossbow (There's metal ones, but ask DM anyways), call it a hand-ballista.
>>47065103
>yfw That Guybuilds Tucker
>>47060268
They're upset he didn't go into the family business of crafting.
>>47063769
>Binder
For all the moaning and lamenting of 3.5, nobody can say that the binder wasn't one of the best class in the whole history of dnd.
>>47062759
AFAIK it says "an attack roll with a manufactured weapon, unarmed strike, or natural weapon attack with which you are proficient". This is why I did not think it would work with kinetic blast.
If it does, great, that makes the feat extra very useful for kineticists.
>>47065925
Debatable, probably up to specific GM ruling since the wording is pretty ambiguous in regards to the kinetic blast description. Honestly there's no reason to deliberately rule against stuff for the poor kineticist, it needs any help it can get.
What happens to kinetic blast when you treat it as a ranged attack, instead of a standard action? That would give it access to iteratives and other options for ranged attacks, but would you have to change the damage to compensate?
>>47066012
True, but RAW I think it would not apply. With it, kineticists look a lot better.
Is Tears to Wine's duration for the transmuted wines duration or does the wine keep indefinitely and the timer is for when you begin consuming it?
At later levels a bard or whoever can probably output enough in one casting to keep the party tipsy for an entire 8 hr adventuring day.
>>tfw will never play a gestalt wizard/synth summoner
Zooming around as a wizard with perfect fly speed and permanent displacement would be great.
>>47066283
The timer would be from consumption.
>>47059967
One of my ideas for kineticists was to remove the cap on elemental overflow, or at least make it scale faster. This way, you'd keep the risk involved in burn, but be able to get serious bang for your buck.
Would that help? Or would it just make them too glass-chainsaw?
