Planescape General and Q&A
Thread starter question: Would there be any interest in a "Planescape lite" setting, a reasonably simplified version of the setting that keeps all of the planes, major races, and factions but presents them as if it was a regular fantasy setting? It would focus on the exemplar races as the "standard" races and present the Outer Planes as if they were fantasy nations.
Discuss Planescape and the Great Wheel here, whether the original AD&D 2e version, the 3.X version, the 4e version (yes, it exists in 4e, down to the baernaloths, the yugoloths, the Heart of Darkness, Maeldur et Kavurik, Tenebrous, Pelion, and the Last Word all being canon as of Dragon #417), the 5e version, or your own original blend.
I am exceedingly well-lanned on Planescape canon under a holistic blend of 2e, 3.X, and sometimes even 4e lore. If you have any questions at all about the setting's lore, feel free to ask, and I will give you direct quotes and citations from as many primary sources as I can, unlike afroakuma. I will note when something is open to GM interpretation, and explicitly note whenever I give merely my own personal interpretation.
>Basic setting summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape
>Comprehensive Planescape reference index: http://www.rilmani.org/psIndex.txt
>Planewalker.com planar encyclopedia: http://mimir.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/plane
>Canonfire.com planar encyclopedia: http://canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Outer_Planes
>Rilmani.org planar encyclopedia (contains unmarked fanon, so beware): http://www.rilmani.org/timaresh/Outer_Planes
>List of all the multiverse's gods (contains all gods mentioned in D&D products, but also has plenty of speculation and fanon for mythological deities and for powers with few details on them): http://mimir.planewalker.com/forum/list-dead-gods#comment-58090
Old threads with previous questions and comprehensive answers: https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/text/%22comprehensive%20planescape%22/
>>46558182
Do you think the rules for magical items losing bonuses when off their plane of forging are worthwhile?
I could see it working if the players got to get and keep a big assortment of weapons, but if it just meant arbitrary penalties to certain characters for certain areas it doesn't seem that worthwhile.
>>46558182
Isn't that basically what they tried to do when they removed Planescape as an official setting? Unfortunately, the pruning of details or streamlining of the setting tends to result in a very poor result every time its tried.
I remember the official 3rd edition version of Planescape ended up devoting like 1 page to Sigil, the most important place in the multiverse. Ayep.
>>46558725
I do not think enforcing such a rule is worthwhile at all.
AD&D 2e Planescape insisted on maintaining 2e's tradition of arbitrarily screwing over characters for no good reason, and it did this for priests (spellcasting level loss across planes), wizards (planar magical conditions), and warriors and thieves (magic item level loss, which would cause weapons to lose pluses, thereby rendering them completely ineffective against many Outer Planar monsters).
All of these contrivances were summarily deleted from 3.X, 4e, and 5e for a good reason, and to reinstate them would be folly.You might think that inconveniencing spellcasters is a good thing in 3.X or 3.PF, but tier 1 and 2 casters still stay tier 1 and 2, and tier 3 casters are unfairly caught in the crossfire.
>>46558825
The 3.0 Manual of the Planes is a perfectly sufficient, simplified version of the Great Wheel, but it is not viable as a standalone setting, because it was never meant to be one. The supplement is geared towards being an "add-on" to any given campaign primarily set in the Prime Material Plane, a collection of places to occasionally visit.
A reasonably simplified version of Planescape would do well if it was to be presented as if it was any other fantasy setting, with Outer Planes effectively standing in for nations, the various exemplar races as "standard" races, the factions as international factions (as they already are) that are optional to join, and so on and so forth. That sort of presentation could greatly help get people into the setting, I think.
Ironically, this would probably work best in any system other than a D&D edition, since that would make it far easier to have playable exemplar races. The Outer Planes alone have enough exemplar races to effectively fill out a "standard races" list, and it is baffling that 2e Planescape never gave much thought into the idea of letting people play these, short of the ill-received Warriors of Heaven.
>>46559008
You really can't skimp on Sigil though. There's so much of the setting that's caught up in the City of Doors that skipping it really doesn't do it justice.
But you're right when you say that book's useful as a simple "what do you see when you end up on the devil's home plane" reference, and it doesn't technically remove anything from the previous setting.
And as for your playable exemplars idea, I like it. I think that if you made a game or adaptation for some dnd-like system you could get a few people interested in it. It is a pretty well loved setting for a lot of people, and even got some crappy knockoff project just recently (where they called the City of Doors 'Sig').
>>46558182
Greatest thing about Planescape is that planes are literal presentations of different philosophies and treating them as standard fantasy nations might easily break that magic.
>>46560563
I do not think you quite understand what I mean by "as if they were fantasy nations." This would not entail changing the physical or metaphysical nature of the planes at all, but rather, changing their presentation.
It is difficult to argue that Baator is not essentially the nation of the baatezu, for instance, or that Mount Celestia is not the nation of the archons. This applies less to Arcadia, Bytopia, the Beastlands, Ysgard, Acheron, Pandemonium, and Carceri, but nobody says a nation has to be unified under one banner.
>>46560679
So does that mean you'd have all sorts of "geopolitics" involving the various Planes and sites of interest? The factions and Blood War already provide a bit of conflict, but I imagine the relations and power/status-jockeying between the Upper Planes is considerably more polite and peaceful when compared to the Lower.
What sort of plots would you run with that anyway? Arborea and Elysium getting into territory disputes?
>>46561150
Points of conflict and interconnections *between* the Upper Planes are woefully uncommon in 2e Planescape and 3.X's planar material. While I have already covered the conflicts endemic to each Upper Plane on its own ( https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/46019442/ ), such conflicts seldom cross from one plane to another.
What few examples of such internal conflict across the Upper Planes *do* exist are compelling though.
The LG-supremacist Order of the Planes-Militant from Mount Celestia is bullying docile Bytopia to try to convert its layers to Celestian layers (Planes of Conflict: Liber Benevolentiae, page 33).
Long ago, aasimon from various Upper Planes came to Elysium to create a race of construct servitors who then rebelled (Planes of Conflict: Liber Benevolentiae, pages 62-63 and the Warriors of Heaven web enhancement), and those constructs are now a sovereign race under the protection of Elysium's gods.
Good outsiders gather together in a "Celestial Concordance" to try to agree on common policies but often argue with one another on how best to promote good (Warriors of Heaven, pages 4-6).
The setting could certainly use more of this, however.
What is the relationship between the animal-people guardinals of Elysium and the actual animals that populate the adjacent Beastlands?
How does industry- and hard-work-promoting Bytopia look upon the idyllic and restfulElysium?
How do the archons of Mount Celestia look upon the totalitarian laws of Arcadia, and the questionable actions of the Harmonium that headquarters there?
What do asuras do when they have to enter the more lawful Upper Planes to perform their services there, given that the Planes of Conflict Monstrous Supplement establishes them as having a fierce rivalry with lawful celestials?
How do Arcadia's Storm Lords, Celestia's Hebdomad, Elysium's Companions, and Arborea's Court of Stars work alongside the various gods scattered across the Upper Planes?
All these and more could be expanded on.
You know, it really is sad that most people's only exposure to the setting is Planescape Torment. Don't get me wrong - the game is incredibly good and one of the best ever made, but it only shows a tiny sliver of the setting itself. There are a few moments where the rest of the setting is explained or talked about (like the lecture from that wizard in the Civic Festhall) but you only travel between a few small portions of the Planes.
There's just so much more variety in the setting, and while I can understand them not being able to really do Limbo or Water properly, there should have been at least one trip to somewhere green or blue or good - Thalasia or Arborea would have been really nice to see.
>>46561371
Don't forget the Modron March, probably the most hilarious planar interconnectional piece of lore they had in the setting originally.
>WE'RE A MARCHIN'
>SEXTOYS COMIN' THROUGH
>WEEBLY BEEBLY BOO
>Abyss? Don't care
>Outlands? Don't mind if we do
>Baator? Hiya, how's it going
>Mount Celestia? These boots are made for walkin' all over you
>>46561423
I am mostly speaking of the (dearth) of interconnections and conflicts within the Upper Planes. Last I checked, Mechanus was not an Upper Plane.
The bulk of the setting's interconnections are squarely focused on Sigil (understandable, given that it is the centerpiece city) and the Lower Planes (also understandable, considering how much the Blood War is highlighted and the lavish treatment Baator and the Abyss received in the 3.5 Fiendish Codices), but interconnections elsewhere are sparse.
The Upper Planes perhaps suffer most from this lack of interplanar plot hooks that stretch out across numerous planes. The "Inner Planes" book, completely on its own, managed to fill the Inner Planes (one of the least-detailed slices of the setting) with a reasonable amount of interplanar conflicts by highlighting its many inhabitants and the alliances and enmities between them that led to numerous disagreements and territorial incursions.
>>46560679
suika is hot
>>46560679
>nobody says a nation has to be unified under one banner.
Merriam-Webster does.
>>46561515
But parts of Arcadia were drawn in and subsumed by Mechanus (as a direct result of Celestia pushing a law>good agenda).
Also in the original cosmology of A&D the river Halcyon traversed the good planes as the styx did for the Lower Planes.
>>46562162
>parts of Arcadia were drawn in and subsumed by Mechanus (as a direct result of Celestia pushing a law>good agenda).
2^kek
>>46562063
Conceded.
>>46562162
>But parts of Arcadia were drawn in and subsumed by Mechanus (as a direct result of Celestia pushing a law>good agenda)
You are speaking of the Harmonium as per page 99 of the Factol's Manifesto, not Mount Celestia. Various Celestians belong to the Harmonium (such as the dwarven proxy of Berronar Truesilver, Hannamar Firehome from page 79 of On Hallowed Ground; there is also the ruler of one of the cities in Mitra and Surya's divine realm of Goldfire, the paladin Benzasir Singh from page 16 of Planes of Law: Mount Celestia; it is reasonable to assume that a variety of archons belong to the Harmonium as well). However, the Harmonium also hosts baatezu as per page 96 of the Factol's Manifesto, so it is not an entirely good faction, even though it does lean towards LG/LN over LE as the same page points out.
Mechanus is not part of the Upper Planes, even if it did absorb Nemausus.
>Also in the original cosmology of A&D the river Halcyon traversed the good planes as the styx did for the Lower Planes.
I assume you are speaking of the River Oceanus, not the River "Halcyon." As I have covered in a previous thread ( https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/46019442/#46048437 ), the River Oceanus runs only through all layers of Elysium, the first layer of the Beastlands, and the first two layers of Arborea; it does not run through any of the other Upper Planes' layers, and it most certainly does not wind into Mechanus.
The River Oceanus is a literal, physical interconnection, but it does not provide much adventure hooks or interplanar conflicts beyond "It allows Elysians to reach Arboreans and vice versa," which is hardly a hook on its own.
>>46562450
>the River Oceanus runs only through all layers of Elysium, the first layer of the Beastlands, and the first two layers of Arborea
>it does not run through any of the other Upper Planes' layers
All three of those are Upper Planes.
>>46562592
Yes, but they're not ALL the Upper Planes. Try and get to Bytopia by sailing down Oceanus.
>>46562781
Oh, I missed the 'other'.
Should faction membership be enough to earn a feat or mechanical bonus?
>>46563768
In AD&D 2e, joining a faction automatically conferred a bevy of benefits. However, these benefits had no mind for internal balance whatsoever.
As per pages 24-25 of the Factol's Manifesto, the *only* mechanical faction benefit received from being a Believer of the Source (the faction most concerned with self-improvement and attainment of personal abilities) is a +2 bonus to reaction rolls with planar creatures, essentially a token bonus to first impressions. Godsmen can literally become gods, but this is already possible for any high-level character as per page 12 of the original Planescape Campaign Setting boxed set's Sigil and Beyond, and also page 10 of Legends & Lore.
Believers of the Source also received *disadvantages*. They can never be raised or resurrected, only reincarnated (since they heavily espouse reincarnation). Furthermore, Godsmen priests of a specific deity (as opposed to being a nebulous cosmic force, such as the Source itself, which of course prevents a priest from using planar power keys as per page 109 of the Believers of the Source) took an arbitrary -1 penalty to all saving throws, supposedly due to "lack of ultimate faith."
>>46564024
Meanwhile, as per pages 66 of the Factol's Manifesto, a member of the Fated literally gained double the amount of all nonweapon proficiencies and treated all NWPs "in-class" (this is the 3.PF equivalent of doubling all skill points and treating all skills as class skills), received a bonus to pickpocketing, and gained a 5% discount on cheap items and a 10% discount on all expensive items.
Furthermore, Fated of 3rd level and above had access to a faction-exclusive NWP, "Plane Knowledge," which granted in-depth familiarity and contacts in a single plane. In fact, this was enough to "determine which way to go to find any portal or destination he's heard of; recognize rare or uncommon residents of the plane; determine the purpose of any native he meets; or survive without food, water, or special equipment." Nothing was stopping a Fated from choosing "the Prime" or "the Outlands" (Sigil included), and the latter would have been especially egregious due to portals. Since this is a faction-exclusive NWP, it means the Takers are the single most well-educated faction in the entire multiverse with respect to the planes.
A Taker's only downside is being unable to give or receive charity, but that can be circumvented by having every dealing involve a change of a few (copper) coins.
With this in mind, tying exclusive mechanical benefits to factions seems like a poor idea overall. If you would like to strongly encourage joining a faction (to the point where truly factionless [not even in the Free League] characters are at a mechanical disadvantage), then give a character who joins a faction a bonus feat/stunt/merit/perk, and have the player explain how their character learns it through the faction's philosophy and facilities. If you would like to place factioneers and factionless characters on even footing, then do not hand out a free ability.
>>46564145
That sounds like it's almost as bad as the Complete Book of Elves.
The 3.5 stuff isn't that much better though - the ardent dilettante is probably the worst prestige class ever printed.
