Resources: http://pastebin.com/NjH6gQqi
Last Thread: >>46504832
In your ideal game world, what do the population demographics look like? Are these only regional or are they global? Why?
>>46517646
A transman Changeling is hardly "weird".
>>46517739
>>46517777
>>46517886
>>46517996
My Kiasyd idea for 2e is "fae-touched" who are Embraced. What Fae Touched means is up to the individual group. Kiasyd treat Iron the way that Changelings in 2e do, and Mythercaria is a series of Merits that gives them Unseen Sense for fairy shit, to see Fate ties, and to make pledges and oaths.
I don't think i have the write up on this computer, and honestly people didn't seem to like the actual writing much. Actually apparently I do.
>>46518663
That's a weird question. I'm not sure you thought about what kind of answers you're going to get.
>>46518765
>A transman Changeling is hardly "weird".
The demon-possessed child rapist J K Rowling is pretty weird.
>>46506761
>So /tg/, what's your least favorite hunter organization and how would you fix it?
The Maiden's Blood Sisterhood. I'd change it from a cringe-worthy attempt at stronk womyn feminism into what it -should- have been; an informal network of fraternity and sorority members who look out for one another and protect college campuses. Call it like the Black Door Society and have it be as simple as you go to any frat or sorority house and if you have a problem with something 'weird' you look for the room with the black door, because you'll always find help from the people behind it.
>>46518765
>That's a weird question. I'm not sure you thought about what kind of answers you're going to get.
I was thinking stuff like:
>There aren't many Trods in the city, but do to a strangely large amount of Trods in nearby towns causing frequent abductions, escapes, and attacks, Changelings from the countryside and suburbs have fled into the city proper.
Or
>I like the idea of Vampire puppet masters ruling the world, so there are a lot of vampires running around do to the need for a large population needed to keep control of the extensive network of blood bounded and ghouls in both high and low places. Unsanctioned embraces just make things worse.
Relinking this, since people were talking about it at the end of the last thread:
Skip to 21:00 for VtMB review
https://youtu.be/uGGoa1GSYS0
>>46518867
That's not even weird. She was basically straight from Inferno, based on two of the Lust Vestments.
>>46518919
But that's not what they are, and never has been. Their write up even points out that they're not actually "protect the innocent college girls!" it's "college kids are fucking idiots". The thing that gets people's undies knotted is that they don't tend to pull from the male student body (but they do have male townies and staff) and the fact that "male characters are unlikely to have Status over 3", which people have interpreted as "MEN NEVER ADVANCE".
And it's ridiculous when another of the sample Covenants is literally the Catholic Church. The Ur-example of an Old Boy's Club, to the point that the notion of a female pontiff is considered a heretical insult.
Seriously, read the write up again.
http://www.thesubnet.com/portal/cod/htv/CompactMBS.html
Does that really sound like a cringe-worthy attempt at "stronk womyn feminists"?
I'm just sitting here, waiting for a torrent or link to the new "V20 The Black Hand: A Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra" to pop up.
I can be patient.
>>46518957
>The compact has a particularly weird relationship with witches. There is an express mandate within the organization that unless a witch is presenting a clear and immediate threat to the population, the case must be reviewed by the Pleiades Council before action is taken. Reportedly this rule was made when a Chapter killed a student reported to be a witch at Bryn Mawr College and the ensuing investigation almost ended the organization. Despite being a reasonable and clear explanation, it hasn't stopped speculation that one or more members of the Pleiades are themselves witches.
Ridiculous feminine mysticism angle? Check.
>Amazons: The Amazons are those blessed with strength to stand between a world full of predators and their sisters. For lack of a better term they are the military arm of the Maiden's Blood and refer most often to active hunting cells. A sister doesn't have to be graced with an abundance of physical strength to serve as an Amazon. Strength of will, conviction, or simply having the backbone to stand up and try diplomacy are all shows of strength enough to participate in the Vigil in the most traditional sense. Girls within the Amazons are trained in self defense of course, just in case.
'We wuz amazuns and sheet' stronk womyn angle? Check
>>46517984
It's a one-to-one ratio, one Beat is equivalent to one of 1e's Experience. The rule of thumb for XP cost conversion is take the cost for the third dot in old 1e Experiences, divide by 5, and round down if you don't get a whole number.
>>46518957
I didn't ask for feedback on my opinion of the compact, Aspel. Though you're free to shit on my alternative idea.
>>46518957
>>46519024
>The same argument about the Buffy knockoff group
Christ, give it a rest you two.
>>46519012
Do you strictly play cWoD or have tried VtR?
>>46519024
The Witch thing is "don't kill people just because you suspect them of being witches" and the Amazons is just a term. In fact, it points out that they're trained in self defense, but physical strength isn't what they look for. Also, what's with the fucking ebonics?
You're literally having a kneejerk reaction.
>>46519041
It turns out that when you say things, other people can say things about the thing you said. That's what a conversation is. I'm saying that I don't feel like you're being fair to a compact that I like. Which is mainly because of what >>46519058 points out: They're a Buffy knock off group.
>Though you're free to shit on my alternative idea.
No, it's actually a legitimately neat idea. I like it. A bit too "Holders", but I like it. Flesh it out.
>you are playing a Mage
>you are neither Arcanthus or Mastigos
Fug, guess I'm useless.
>>46519012
I wouldn't hold my breath. I've never seen a link to any of the non-core 20th Anniversary books.
>>46519108
What? Thyrsus are mean as fuck, and a well-played Obrimos can be very powerful. The only Path I think are useless are Moros.
>>46519071
I've tried every game in CWoD, and I've tried VtR and WtF in the new world of Darkness (chronicles).
I'm a big fan of VtM and WtA, though, and it's what I usually play... and V20 and W20 was a godsend for me. M20 was also okay, I guess.
>>46519134
I'm the exact opposite. I've played nearly every gameline in both oWoD and CofD, even all of the historical settings like Wraith Great War and WtA The Wild West and I just could never go back to cWoD for anything but Wraith. The other games, their metaplot, it sickens me now to go back and read any of it (especially the vampire novels).
I love everything they've done with the CofD versions and I'm so happy they're all getting second editions.
>>46519125
Ouch ;_;
>>46519153
ded path
ded tower
>>46519097
>Also, what's with the fucking ebonics?
It's a reference to a meme mocking a particular subset of American black people who insist that certain ancient nonwhite empires (typically Egypt or one of the various Muslim empires) were in fact West Africans, and that modern-day American black people such as themselves are directly descended from them; in particular, the sentiment behind the meme sees these people as being stuck in the past instead of trying to work toward a better future for black people.
It's a weird case of appropriating other cultures because your own cultural heritage was basically destroyed.
>>46519125
>The only Path I think are useless are Moros.
Not if you know enough about chemistry.
Also Death finally isn't going to suck in 2e, since now it doesn't have 90% vulgar spells for no reason.
>>46519097
I just don't see what there is to like about MBS. When I read through their section my reaction was 'meh' like so many of the other splatbook compacts. In fact of all the books I think Night Stalkers had some of the weakest groups, the only one I like is the Caninite Heresy and even then that's only after that SAS that outlined their Roman connection to Aves Minerva.
>>46519109
Really? that's weird, since I've got all of the 20th Anniversary books (PDF) on my PCs, and I got them all from 4chan and other imageboards :P
I've also got physical copies of the core books though, at least for V20 and W20.
>>46519143
Vampire the Requiem was... it's okay, but I never really got into it. I guess I became addicted to VtM's feel of "the end is coming...".
>>46519179
That makes it's use even weirder, since Amazons aren't from Africa.
>>46519125
Fuck you, Moros are great. And like >>46519189 says, in 2e they'll be even better.
Death and ghosts are always the coolest stuff.
>>46519190
Thinking they're "meh" is fine. I think most of the Compacts are "meh". I just don't like people hating on them for being "cringe-worthy stronk womyn feminists".
>the only one I like is the Caninite Heresy and even then that's only after that SAS that outlined their Roman connection to Aves Minerva.
Really? That's more reason I hate them. The Aves Minerva were great, but then in their SAS they're given the shitty stupid Cainite Endowment that's all about overly pointless resource management and clear "you're run by vampires" bullshit.
>>46519204
Did anyone ever even play VtM as if Gehenna was right around the corner?
>>46519229
>"you're run by vampires" bullshit
Huh? Where do you get that? The Red Rituals are blessings taught by Minerva, it just uses vitae for fuel, there's no indication that they're being manipulated by kindred or even Strix (it goes out of its way to mention Strix are an evil mockery).
>>46519097
The Null Mysteriis stereotype is pretty sexist "lol men amirite" garbage, but this is a White Wolf book and most stereotypes in those are shit.
>>46519249
Unlike, I might add, the Malleus and TFV who get completely vampire cucked by Compacts & Conspiracies for no good reason.
>>46519229
Every group I was part of did.
I mean, it's not like every single vampire was going "err merr gerd, Caine is curming!", but there were plenty of frightened Elders and signs pointing to the apocalypse in most of our plays.
>>46519249
Still uses special ritual blood, which is frustrating enough for me. Even divorced from the fluff of the powers, I just really don't like how the Rites of Denial merit *functions* mechanically. It's one of my least favourite Endowment mechanics, other than the way Goetic Gospels are the worst of 1e's incremental cost design.
>>46519264
Some stereotypes are awesome. Heck, the other three are really good. Hunter has the best stereotypes because they give you the best impression of who the Hunters actually are.
>>46519265
Malleus have been run by a Ghoul since the corebook. I also could have sworn TFV had hints of it before C&C, but I'm too lazy to go back and look.
>>46519270
To each their own. I've never really heard any storytimes that put that forefront, and honestly it just seems grating and unfun; the metaplot and state of the world as being on the cusp of Gehenna feels like it would drown out everything you do.
Hell, even VtMB barely focuses on "everything is going to die soon" other than Andrei, it's more focused on the immediate plot with the Sarcophagus. But that's all kind of rendered moot because in like four minutes after the credits roll, the Winnowing happens and the Fledgeling dies like everyone else.
>>46518957
>which people have interpreted as "MEN NEVER ADVANCE".
Yeah but, they're stupid people, who cares what they think?
>>46519265
MM is run by a human who uses vampire blood to extend their life. It isn't like they're controlled by a walking corpse that's using them as just a pawn in some great game.
Usual guy must be asleep
Chronicle of Fagness
>>46518765
Niggah he's a cuntboy, not a transman. Label that shit right or fuckoff.
>>46519535
>Note on gender: Aiden is for all intents and purposes male, he just happens to be a bit girly, and has a vagina. He's effectively a transsexual man, female to male, but thanks to Faeries he doesn't need to keep up with testosterone shots. He doesn't like talking about it, though. What with being kidnapped by the King of Tales.
Literally at the top of the profile. His gender is set to "cuntboy" because there's a certain cultural assumption that characters marked "transgender" are just cute crossdressing girlyboys. Plus, I just want a green name. Even then, there's like no incentive for me to "label that shit right" when I don't even RP in the first place.
Although I have been meaning to rewrite the profile with a 2e character sheet. Can't decide on Kith/Seeming.
>>46519342
>I also could have sworn TFV had hints of it before C&C, but I'm too lazy to go back and look.
It does.
Reposting because I missed the new thread links
>>46517598
>>46518105
Both of your statements are partially correct. The Supernal and Fallen (of which the Material is only a part; the Shadow, Underworld, Astral, etc are all connected to the Supernal in the same manner) are linked in a wayso fundamental that even the Abyss separating them can't completely break their sympathetic connection. Mage magic is based around the occult concept of "As Above, So Below" after all. And the Abyss does taint more than just Mage magic - remember that EVERY HUMAN SOUL that hasn't awakened has a little bit of Abyssal taint in it. Plus there are other things (like the Knights of St George in Hunter) that likely have Abyssal connections.
We obviously don't know what the world looked like before the Fall, but no Mages we've seen so far theorize that everyone could use Magic pre-Fall - it was just something anyone could LEARN, given talent, time, and effor. True magical skill was rare, you just didn't need a mystical Awakening in order to gain the ability.
>the Abyss has always existed, it just wasn't able to leak into reality before
There's basically two schools of thought on this as far as I can tell - some Mages believe that the Abyss was specifically created by the Fall, and is just a pocket of anti-reality created as a result of the separation of Above and Below. Others (this is the view most Scelesti hold) say the Abyss is essentially "everything that isn't the Tellurian", an endless ocean of un- and potential-reality in which our entire cosmos is merely one "island." The Fall just let a little bit of it enter our "bubble" to separate the Supernal from the rest.
I tend to believe the second as well - Scelesti may be insane, but I think they're right when they say the Tellurian could just be a particularly powerful Annunaki (or several) that became a Universe, that any other Annunaki could do the same, and that there are probably countless other possible Tellurians out there.
>>46519012
Good luck, I've been waiting for Dark Eras ever since it dropped for backers, and it's (arguably) more popular than that...
>>46519125
All Paths can be strong. All Paths can be weak.
Thyrsus lacks mind.
Obrimos and Moros lack subtlety.
Acanthus lacks actual firepower.
Mastigos lacks..
Ok. Mastigos are flawless.
>>46519840
There's a link in the pastebin.
>>46519853
All Paths can be strong because each only has one of TEN freaking Arcana that they're bad at. Just because they get two as Ruling doesn't mean they can't pick up as many dots as they want in others, especially once you get into Legacies which means you can pretty much choose whatever third Ruling you want.
You can't even say "but Mana!" since 2e is going to give us Praxises (Praxes? Praxi? How do you make that plural?) which means that if there's a non-ruling spell you want to use a lot all you have to do is make it one and BAM, no more mana expenditure.
Which is not at all a statement of "Mage Supremecy," since you're still paying XP for all of these, preventing you from actually having all 10 (or even 9) Arcana. But it does mean that any Path can be as strong in any particular sphere of activity as a player wants to build them.
>>46519933
Praxes.
You also forgot to mention that Legacies can remove Inferior Arcana.
Dreamspeaker 4 lyf.
>>46519829
Neolithic also supports this. When talking about the abyss it explains it as an ocean of unreality that sometimes washes in. Because some ass hole used to much magic i guess tipping "reality" and letting some unreality in.
>>46519853
Mastigos lack the ability to actually affect the material world around them. No Forces and Inferior Matter means they need specific subjects to work with.
2e's changes to Space should fix this slightly, but it's a problem more often than you'd think.
>>46519829
>There's basically two schools of thought on this as far as I can tell - some Mages believe that the Abyss was specifically created by the Fall, and is just a pocket of anti-reality created as a result of the separation of Above and Below. Others (this is the view most Scelesti hold) say the Abyss is essentially "everything that isn't the Tellurian", an endless ocean of un- and potential-reality in which our entire cosmos is merely one "island." The Fall just let a little bit of it enter our "bubble" to separate the Supernal from the rest.
>I tend to believe the second as well - Scelesti may be insane, but I think they're right when they say the Tellurian could just be a particularly powerful Annunaki (or several) that became a Universe, that any other Annunaki could do the same, and that there are probably countless other possible Tellurians out there.
From what I remember the original story was that when the Supernal and the Fallen separated, the Abyss was a yawning chasm "behind" it that now fills the gap that opened up.
Of course, that doesn't explain how Summoners lets you summon things outside even the Abyss.
>>46521119
Yea, that's the common Mage explanation. It's stated in many subsequent books, though (especially Summoners and Left-Hand Path, I believe) that such a belief tends to be held by people who have never studied the Abyss at all, or who wish to downplay its significance.
Honestly being vague about it is the best way, though - the Abyss is literally simultaneously unreality and every possible unrealized reality, it doesn't work by rules that people could possibly conceptualize, and therefore should remain as vague (and terrifying) as possible.
>>46521087
Except it's not "no Forces".
>>46521119
>Of course, that doesn't explain how Summoners lets you summon things outside even the Abyss.
Because Summoners is the best book and they need something to keep you scared.
>>46521119
>>46521291
To me, "outside the Abyss" just implies even further that there are other "Tellurians" out there. Which is even more terrifying, because given how insane some of those things from Summoners are, that means that most of those other Tellurians operate under entirely different laws than ours, and are just as nightmarish as the Abyss's unreality.
>>46521291
Summoners is a good book even if you aren't running Mage.
>>46521415
Mage Supremacy in a nutshell
>>46521427
And the glory that is Damnation City creates Vampire Supremacy?
>>46521402
>because given how insane some of those things from Summoners are, that means that most of those other Tellurians operate under entirely different laws than ours, and are just as nightmarish as the Abyss's unreality.
Yeah, like that horrible insane thing that makes betrayal. Or that other thing that's basically a succubus. No one on earth could have imagined these things
>>46521471
>>46521427
Oh! And the universally applicable Predators! Does that one create Werewolf Supremacy?
>>46521471
I didn't know people loved Ghould-baby fights so much!
>>46521471
>>46521471
No, because Mages can create sunlight, so will always trump Vampires
>>46521490
>Oh! And the universally applicable Predators! Does that one create Werewolf Supremacy?
2e did that.
>>46521495
So can Werewolves. Summon Helion, bind in Fetish. BAM! Influence Sunlight-fetish.
>>46521427
Every splat has a book that works well for antagonists to any splat. Most of them are in the respective Night Horrors book, but that doesn't mean you can't use the Centimani or Pandorans as an antag in your Vampire game. It also doesn't mean that Promethean Supremacy is a thing.
Summoners just has some super spooky non-Supernal shit from other worldly places that could work well in a lot of scenarios, same as other weird spooky monsters from other splats.
>>46521495
Vampires can shoot mages.
>>46521533
Every arcana gives indefinite Mage armor as a basic effect, guns don't apply to mages
>>46521522
That just proves that Vampires suck, not that mages aren't the best
>>46521533
Shooting is EXTREMELY inefficient for vampires.
A better thing to do would be to use Celerity to just be in the Mage's face, and then throw a punch backed by Frenzy, Vigor and Physical intensity.
A Mage needs space shit to make sure the vampire can't get to him, or they'll get a face full of death-fist.
>>46521522
also the Shadow Masquerade gift, which gives you the influences of the spirit you're masquerading as
>>46521587
True, but that one is only available for Ithaeur, I went for a more ecumenical approach.
>>46521578
>Every arcana gives indefinite Mage armor as a basic effect, guns don't apply to mages
Except guns can go through mage armor.
>>46519933
>everyone is strong because with enough exp you can color in ALL the dots!
Ebic, now tell me how powerful a Moros is compared to a Mastigos when they only have 70 exp under their belts.
>>46521402
Tellurians?
>>46521427
So I guess we've also got GURPS supremacy?
>>46521676
Even in 1e, isn't that enough to have several masteries?
>>46521495
Only if they're an Obrimos or otherwise have 3(to turn something else into sunlight) or 5(to ACTUALLY create sunlight) dots in Forces.
>>46521578
>Every arcana gives indefinite Mage armor as a basic effect
Except guns can go through mage armor, and Mage armor is NOT indefinite.
>>46519933
Praxes
>>46521735
I think Tellurian is mage-slang for Universe, more or less. In this case, the Abyss is the space between universes, and the universes aren't parallel.
How strong can a vampire become in 2e? Combat-wise, I mean.
I'll leave hax for later.
>>46521940
Not strong enough to beat a Mage
>>46521735
Tellurian is the Mage term for "The Cosmos" or "Everything that Isn't the Abyss." It's the combination of the Supernal and Fallen Realms, as well as the Lower Depths and anything that might theoretically be "above" the Supernal.
>>46521940
VERY. Physical disciplines alone make you pretty tough, and you can find combat applications for every discipline in general. Plus frenzy is still powerful. A combat-specialist Vampire is TOUGH.
>>46521676
That... was not at all what I was saying. I'm saying that any path can be strong at any particular thing you choose- combat, social stuff, mystery solving, etc - depending on how you build them. But you seem to be one of those "mage supremacy lol" trolls so this is the last reply you're getting out of me.
>>46522160
>VERY. Physical disciplines alone make you pretty tough, and you can find combat applications for every discipline in general. Plus frenzy is still powerful. A combat-specialist Vampire is TOUGH.
How strong compared to 1e vampire?
aspel, are you a racist faggot?
>all of this Mage and Werewolf shitposting hiding the boring Vampire wankery
I don't know what happened to change wodg but I like it!
>>46522215
as a person who hates Aspel, I would say he's a lot of things. Hell, depending on your definitions, he might even be a faggot. Hell, he might even get off to you calling him a faggot.
But he isn't racist.
>>46522332
>he might even be a faggot
I am queerer than a three dollar bill, that's a known factor.
>But he isn't racist
Of course not. You can't be racist towards white people. . :V . . .
>>46522287
Just you wait, soon VtR will finally get it's long delayed books out.
>>46522287
People used to wank vampires?
Haven't they always been kinda mid-tier, power wise?
>>46522445
Sounds lame, at least VtM has a good setting.
>>46522445
>Just you wait, soon VtR will finally get it's long delayed books out.
And so will Mage and Mage discussion will drown vampy discussion, as it should be
>>46522484
>This is what vampirefags believe
>>46522506
>liking some bite (huehuehue) to your vampires is bad
I bet you're a Carthian
>>46522486
Yeah, but we'll probably have been settled down about Mage's releases by then. We aren't likely to see the Vampire books for months. But they're still likely next in the pipeline after Mage.
>>46522536
>Implying Masquerade has "bite" and Requiem doesn't.
I mean, I guess if "bite" means hackneyed stereotypes and mechanical and narrative constraints, sure. But why would you want that?
And while everyone gets butthurt, I'm still here... juuuust waiting. As I expect I'll do for a loooong time.
Yup.
>>46522199
Physical disciplines have a free benefit and cost effects. for example vigor just adds to your strength now, and lets you jump in yards instead of feats in addition it multiplies the distance by 1+vigor.
Resilience lets you reduce aggravated damage you some how
Take into lethal damage up to its dots.
Celerity give any attack against you a penalty equal to your dots in it.
You can also spend vitae for effects vitae lets you add your vigor to the success by spending vitae.
Resilience becomes an armor like effect that lets you avoid damage.
While celerity lets you go first in initiative, move at extreme speeds, and even interrupt other actions.
So lets say for example a vampire is fight fighting a mage. That mage is pretty far away and shots a fireball at the vampire. That vampire if decked out in combat abilities can interrupt the action to jump towards the mage with let say 6 success in that jump check. Thats 36 yards or 108 feat and an exceptional success so that lets you take another instant action upon landing.
The vampire could just jump through the fireball, using resilience to avoid up to 5 damage from the fireball which would be most if not all the damage from the fireball.
Then finally when the vampire lands next to the mage he can attack with what ever weapon he has and use vigor to add 5 to the automatic damage.
These are just the disciplines in use for combat not even taking into account devotions meant for combat, fighting styles, or even using physical intensity for wild boost in combat. Let alone the shenanigans that the coil of the Wyrm lets you get away with.
>>46522736
*raises paw*
What are you waiting on? :3c
>>46522199
I've never actually played 1e, so take this with a grain of salt, but I'd say they're noticeably more powerful without it being a HUGE jump.
All of the physical disciplines got a slight boost, other disciplines got more potential combat utility (especially Auspex), there are more things that can boost your combat ability (like vampire-specific fighting styles). Plus the fact that almost EVERYTHING only does Bashing damage to Kindred now (not just guns, bladed weapons too) is a nice stealth buff.
It basically got rid of a bunch of weird weaknesses 1e Vamps had and made it so that a combat-focused Vamp can hold their own (and a non-combat focused vamp can still flip out and kill shit if she has to, even if it costs a lot of Vitae).
Also see >>46522759 for some specific examples. Combat focused vampires are as scary as they should be.
>>46522760
Waiting for this:
>>46519012
"a torrent or link to the new "V20 The Black Hand: A Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra".
>>46523014
Maybe you should buy it, murrrrr.
>>46522759
>>46522199
>>46522017
>>46521940
With two notable exceptions, vampires are easily a match for mages in physical combat. Absent a very combat-oriented mage character build, vampires' innate physical capabilities should give them a distinct advantage.
However, this doesn't apply to any mage who's achieved mastery in any Arcana. Masters all must have at least a Gnosis 5 (mages tend toward a higher power stat than other splats) and master-level offensive spells are instant-kill, without regard to supernatural tolerance or most other factors. They are technically Withstood, but an Exceptional Success eliminates that weakness, and ES's are easy to achieve with Rotes, Praxes, and other tricks and a dice pool starting at 10. Mage masters are freakin' scary.
Exception two are Obrimos. The most mousy, scholarly and peaceful Obrimos can still usually command fire, sunlight and other extreme and destructive nastiness with casual ease, particularly now with 2e's Forces Arcanum revisions eliminating certain Forces roadblocks, and many Obrimos know at least a few combat tricks. Even a vampire elder should think twice before assaulting an Obrimos. An Obrimos *master* mage is basically a purpose-built vampire killing machine.
>>46523026
>Maybe you should buy it, murrrrr.
That's just crazy talk. Where do you think you are, rpg.net?
>>46523039
>without regard to supernatural tolerance or most other factors.
Gotta love that Dave. He saw people improving the other splats and he just wasn't going to stand for that shit.
>>46523039
>Withstood, but an Exceptional Success eliminates that weakness
Oh. So any mage with 10-ish dice is going to get their spells off, no matter the target?
>>46523026
I'm actually VERY hesitant to buy PDFs and such. Got bad experiences with it. Been several times where I've had problems with the PDF link/file not being sent, and being told to "just wait".
Them: "Oh, you bought the PDF?"
Me: "Yes, but I haven't gotten it!"
Them: "Give it a few days."
*Few days later*
Me: "Still haven't gotten it. Shouldn't this be freaking instant?!"
Them: "Hmm. Make sure your email is correct!"
*I check it*
Me: "Yes, it's correct."
Them: "Give it a few days."
*rinse and repeat for over a month before I get the actual PDF*
>>46519829
>>46519933
>>46521402
The story goes (in 1e's core, and in a few other places) that before the Fall mages didn't need the Watchtowers to Awaken - instead Sleepwalkers would go on Astral Journies by meditating in the "natural" Demesnes found on Atlantis (which were formed by "dragon bones" (later retconned as Sariras) instead of soul stones). The Astral didn't cut off at the Abyss pre-Fall; a prospective mage-to-be meditated into the Supernal and marked it.
So, while they weren't archmages as we know them, pre-Fall Awakened were more like the Fallen World's archmages than regular mages; they certainly didn't have Paths.
How much of this is true, along with everything else about the universe pre-cosmic upset, is Mysterious.
Oh, and old Mage used "Pattern" "Tapestry" metaphors for reality, because in the metaphor consensus mages were reweaving it. Chronicles of Darkness mages call the Supernal symbols representing a particular aspect of a thing their "Form", the total Forms visible to a single Arcanum a "Pattern" and every Pattern in the Fallen World (ie, the entirety of the Supernal World as opposed to the Supernal Realms) "the Tapestry". Or, in very old Grimoires, "The Tellurian".
It doesn't mean "the universe". It means "the sum total Supernal information relating to the universe".
>>46523111
Dude. What?
I've never had to wait more than a minute for my purchases to be processed.
Contact DTRPG, because it sounds like you have some serious issues there.
>>46523111
Drivethru doesn't email the pdfs. You download them directly from the site.
>>46523039
Any Mage can have Forces, and Vampires are no longer going up like flashpaper in sunlight.
>>46523060
>>46523096
It's worth noting that to get an Exceptional reliably, you usually need 25 dice, or 15 if you've got them at three successes instead of five. And that's *after* taking any sort of penalties for spell factors that you *will* need.
>>46523142
Sariras?
>>46523039
Well my point was not that a vampire can kill mages easy. Its that when I think of someone shooting fire from their hands I think mage.
Also for arguments on master's apply to elder vampire and werewolf elders. They are not to be trifled with. Elders can have a devotion to make then Immune to damage for a turn, even sunlight can't hurt them.
>>46523060
All spells have nothing to do with supernatural tolerance in 2E, even gnosis, the only exception is spell involving clash of wills.
Have you even read about withstand raiting?
>>46523222
>Sariras?
The stuff left behind after a successful Ascension.
>>46523227
>All spells have nothing to do with supernatural tolerance in 2E, even gnosis
So it's not just "even more overpowered", it's "even more overpowered right from chargen because every other splat's inherent defense against the supernatural is just plain gone"
....great
>>46523165
>Drivethru doesn't email the pdfs. You download them directly from the site.
Still hesitant to do so, given my own experiences with this kind of thing. Besides, I like to see exactly what I'll be buying before I actually... well, you know. Buy it.
>>46523060
One, Gnosis 5+ Master Mages are as rare as BP 5+ Elder Vampires, who have just as many ways to fuck you up
Two, >>46523039's explanation is pretty simplistic, its ignoring Spell Factors affecting the dicepool, how much Paradox the Mage will suffer for the spell, whether or not the Mage has the proper rotes or praxes or Yantras/tools on-hand, etc. Giving everyone perfect stats/equipment/rolls and facing off in a White Room Fight is pointless and stupid.
Three, even making that the case, saying that a Gnosis 5 Forces 5 Obrimos could easily fuck up a Vampire in straight-combat doesn't make him overpowered, it just means that it's a bad idea to try and take him in a straight fight. Vampires and Mages both have LOADS of ways to fight through intermediaries, which is probably what powerful Mages and Vampires would both do.
Fourth, again, White Room Fights are stupid as fuck and should be avoided at all cost because THEY MAKE ARGUMENTS LIKE THIS HAPPEN.
>>46523222
>It's worth noting that to get an Exceptional reliably, you usually need 25 dice, or 15 if you've got them at three successes instead of five. And that's *after* taking any sort of penalties for spell factors that you *will* need.
No. You need 10 - after penalties - to get it reliably when your target is 3.
>>46523265
On top of that. Some of us Only buy Physical books. and use PDFs as merely quick reference. There is not an option yet for this book to get it in my hands. So i am waiting on someone releasing a pirated version..
I wish they would follow Paizo's strategy of selling PDFS.
>>46523277
I went to public school.
>>46519514
>>46523350
Well la di da
>>46523342
Paizo has more money to spend on editing.
>>46523358
That's not a good thing. I was using that as an excuse for not doing the math better. The truth is for some reason I thought the rule of thumb was five dice to a success, as opposed to three.
>>46521291
Summers, Inferno and Immortals are amazing books.
Changing Breeds is well done mechanically, except for beast magic. Thematically it's YIFF YIFF MAXIMUM YIFF.
>>46523356
I'd watch that.
I'd so watch that.
>>46523274
>One, Gnosis 5+ Master Mages are as rare as BP 5+ Elder Vampires
They're really not, actually. Mages have a bellcurve that's centered on the actual center of the powerstat scale.
Vampires' power stat goes up and down a lot thanks to age, diablerie, and torpor, and BP 6+ Vampires tend to go torpid and send it back down rather than start feeding on their own kind.
>>46523249
Do dragons still exist in the CofD, or is it assumed/thought they all went off to ascend or whatever else they did? Are there dragons besides the ones that ostensibly led humanity to Atlantis according to the myth, other than as Gentry that happens to favor that sort of story or whatever Beasts get their horrors from? It's occurred to me I've never seen reference to any sort of dragon besides that kind of thing in nWoD, though I'm not exactly well read.
>>46523394
Would it make you AROUSED?
>>46523385
>That's not a good thing.
>a public school is an older, exclusive and expensive fee-paying independent secondary school which caters primarily for children aged between 13 and 18. Traditionally, public schools were all-male boarding schools, although most now allow day pupils, and many have become either partially or fully co-educational.
Is this a Mage thing I'm not getting?
>>46523142
>Ahh, DaveB-sempai quoted all my posts~
Ahem, excuse me, don't know what came over me there for a second...
Thanks for the clarification, I was never sure if "Tellurian" referred to specifically what you just said, or to the universe in general (since they are somewhat similar concepts, yet crucially different). I'm guessing this is another thing that's going to be much more clearly defined in 2e, which is great.
>>46523410
ARRROOUUUUSSEEEEDDD
Howl it. You'll get the pun. It's subtle.
>>46523413
UK Public school is a private school in the US, and vice versa.
>>46523407
Dragons exist in the Primordial Dream, lot of dragon Beasts out there
>>46523256
Spells apply against a withstood rating now. So you want to put that vampire to sleep, and he has 4 resolve you need to have your spell with 5 potency.
Lets say you have 3 mind to do this. You are taking -4 or -8 depending on if the spells potency is duration or not. That a big ass penalty figuring none rotes spells have at best a 15 dice pool.
>>46523405
Vampires also rise slower, apparently. What with Blood Potency mostly rising via age for most.
>>46523427
I wasn't picking this up on account of being a heterosexual male, but
>muscular werewolves
>no body hair
I'll pick it up just to say I dropped it for that.
>>46523427
>>46523431
Right, I meant aside from that, as physical beings. Or maybe that distinction doesn't make sense? I know basically nothing about the Primordial Dream and Beast.
>>46523277
That proxies spells that have exceptional success at 3 not rotes.
>>46523463
Myeah. I want my werewolves big, and savage. Not sleek and oiled.
>>46523464
>>46523481
Praxes, not proxies.
And yes? Arcana + Gnosis + Yantras is going to be fairly high, fairly quick.
>>46523386
There is nothing particularly well done mechanically about Changing Breeds. None of the breeds were balanced against each other OR against Werewolf 1e, which is impressive because original WtF was bottom tier for major splat types. Changing Breeds is full of mechanics that could have been good and then were overcosted to shit.
>>46523427
This one is actually an intersection of multiple kinks for me, so I might have to look it up.
>>46523405
Yea, but Mages are pretty damn rare to begin with, and even among Mages with 4-6 Gnosis, Masters (and certainly multi-degree Masters) aren't necessarily the majority.
I don't know how much this is supposed to change in 2e, but at least in 1e I'm fairly sure the expectation was that the majority of Mages only ever become 2nd or 3rd degree Adepts (i.e, have 4 dots in 2 or three Arcana) or, at most, only become 1st degree Masters.
PCs obviously have an easier time than that, but they're, you know, PCs.
>>46523386
Changing Breeds is terrible mechanically. It's a fucking mess, even beyond Beast Magic.
Inferno and Immortals I'm also not too hot on. I know why people like Inferno, but the Possessed Template was a mess, and so were all the Immortals. I have no idea why people like Immortals, other than Purified, but I don't like Purified.
>>46523413
Public school means 'school for the public'. As in, it's free and you often get what you pay for. As >>46523427 points out it must mean something different in the UK.
Also, >>46523427 that middle Chad's face looks so unfitting for his body that it has to have been shopped on.
>>46523427
Ew.
No body hair = werewolf equivalent of a chihuahua.
>>46523478
I'm petty sure one of the "end game" options for Beasts is to eschew the Astral and become an IRL monster and the cost of the human they once were, so it's possible they exist.
But actual, honest to god dragons IRL? Not unless a mage deigns to create for you with Life.
Mages - what would you do without them
>>46523512
Yantras take time to use. That in of itself is a great balancing factor.
>>46523526
>Yea, but Mages are pretty damn rare to begin with
They're the most common supernatural being in the world after Vampires.
>>46523532
Body Thieves are cool in mortal / Hunter games. And the NPC immortal types in the back are fucking great. I love me some Harvesters.
>>46523617
Yes. If you want to use more than 1.
>>46523274
First, by design, Powerstat/Gnosis 5+ mages are generally more common than other supernaturals. It's necessary in the setting for things like Legacy Attainments. It's the primary XP sink for Arcane XP, and is far less of a comparable advantage over other splats than it seems.
Of course, the analysis was relatively simple given the posts it was responding to (basically white room situations). I would be the first to concede that powerful mages and vampires would rarely engage in a one-on-one battles, and both splats normally have ample means of indirect or less violence confrontation at their disposal. However, those options didn't concern the original point about raw combat capabilites.
You also seem to ignore the fact that I actually conceded that vampires normally have an *advantage* in combat over most mages of comparable XP, and your hyper-focusing on two situations where mages will obviously have distinct advantages over most vampires is just odd.
>>46523222
>Any Mage can have Forces
Yes, but absent it as a Ruling Arcanum from a Legacy, Obrimos have easier access and use of the Arcanum and far more likely to possess it at a meaningful proficiency.
While sunlight also isn't as damaging to vampires in 2e, it still hurts a *lot* with very few means of mitigation or quick healing. Further, fighting a mage who can turn any venue into the equivalent of a sunny summer afternoon, no less a mage with an aptitude for fire (or range aggravated attacks with Adept-level spells), is a recipe for a very messy end.
>>46523620
Blood bathers would make great slashers. The minor immortals would make great second nsight additions. The purified could be a 'lesser' template for mummies with some refluffing.
>>46523620
Most common? Said by who?
Source your claim.
>>46523620
With all of the splats, sub-splats and Hunters running around how many people are actually still in the dark about Supernaturals?
>>46523639
>Arcane XP
Why don't other splats get bonus XP to increase their power stat
Oh right, can't let Mages just be the most powerful, most versatile and have the cheapest powers. They've got to increase in power even quicker than everyone else than they already do.
It's only right.
>>46523222
>It's worth noting that to get an Exceptional reliably, you usually need 25 dice, or 15 if you've got them at three successes instead of five
Is this some new math?
Also, keep in mind that Masters can create their own rotes, these rotes have the Rote Quality on spellcasting rolls, and normally include mundra skills receiving Order bonuses and with which they are very proficient.
>>46523671
Definitely going the way of oWoD. And when it gets too packed, they'll talk about how you should only take the game lines seperately.
>>46523639
The requirements gnosis for Legacy have gone down in 2E. So by design thats no longer true.
>>46523664
heresay on here, maybe Dave so that's to be expected.
Standard logic is that normal : supernatural goes roughly 50,000 : 1
Half are vampires and their assorted taggers on (ghouls, Strix-puppets, etc.), another third are Mages and their tagalongs. Then the collective "other stuff", then the remaining mainlines.
>>46523677
>Why don't other splats get bonus XP to increase their power stat
They do, though. Blood beats are a thing, and they're actually way easier to get than arcane beats.
A vampire could max their Blood Potency by clearing out a couple midwest towns.
>>46523700
I'm not sure of his reasoning, but a single die has .3 chance for success on a roll of 8, 9 or 10. So for a guaranteed success, 4 dice. 5 successes would require 20 dice. On average. 24-25 for the 6th? We can get into deeper bits, but I'm lazy and i'ts early. We'll pretend the dice are perfectly representative.
>>46523712
2e isn't released.
>>46523734
And almost certainly end up a beast.
>>46523677
Vampire have blood beats, changelings have clarity beats, Promethean apparently have some called dawn beats. Oo and werewolves get a beat for Every Exceptional Success when on a sacred hunt.
So boy it sure does seem like the games rewards you for playing the game right. Would have been a shame for mages to miss out on that.
>>46523785
>And almost certainly end up a beast.
I'm not saying it'd be WISE, just that it's totally possible, and a vampire can do it basically on-demand whereas a mage has to actually do something dangerous/ST-provided.
>>46523677
They do. You just don't know about it, same as you don't actually know how Mage works.
Hell, in 1e Vampires could just eat some other vampire and gain their power.
>>46523785
>>46523700
>Is this some new math?
See >>46523350
>I went to public school.
>>46523787
Prometheans have always had Vitriol.
>>46523785
You're rounding up a bit too much. You're also forgetting the "10 Again" rule.
>>46523723
By the old 1e numbers, there's a shitload more werewolves than that.
>>46523639
>and is far less of a comparable advantage over other splats than it seems.
Gnosis is basically the only powerstat I know of that's included in every dicepool to use your powers.
>>46523866
You might have to fight Dave about that.
>you can't learn a Discipline unless you get a Vampire to teach you
>you can't learn a Gift unless you go into the Shadow and get a Spirit to teach you
>you can't learn a Rote unless you get a Mage to teach you
>also it costs experience
When will this meme of double-locking abilities end?
>>46523723
The thing is that the developer never say what sort of population the sups have.
Dave has denied us about mage populations before, trust me I asked him about it.
But he has mentioned that the population of mages are determined by the citys mysteries.
At a rate of 50/100/150/200 from small mysteries to "why Seattle has splintered time lines".
Anyone ever play the Secret World? Ptahmose is the best representative of an older mage or priest-immortal I've seen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8Vb5ja9Qr4
>>46523821
They might get a town in if they're incredibly lucky. And the beast would probably finish the job and end up bp 10 anyway.
>>46523855
Not really. 4 dice should, at the top of the bell curve, average a single success. If you include 10 again, then the dice requirement becomes 11 for 3 successes.
>>46523712
>The requirements gnosis for Legacy have gone down in 2E. So by design thats no longer true
Not really. It mostly just fixes the odd disparities in Legacy requirements of 1e and centers the powerstat bell curve more appropriately, but Gnosis is still generally higher than most other splats powerstats, particularly vampires who trend lower.
>>46523866
The 50,000:1 number has always been pretty ridiculous.
Didn't we get a population-density-based number for Vampires recently?
>>46523512
>>46523617
Mages normally get one free reflexive Yantra, including Rote Mundras.
More time and Yantras just make powerful spells even more deadly.
>>46523878
I don't think I *do* need to fight him over 1e numbers, what with them being 1e. As to 2e, I don't recall Dave mentioning hard numbers for Awakened populations, but I might well be wrong.
>>46519514
ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ
T H I S M U S T B E T H E W O R K O F
T H E E N E M Y G O D M A C H I N E
ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ ゴ
>>46523946
Thats one yantra, I never said that even one will takes turns to apply. And your right rote mundras are really good.
But more time put into that spell to make it powerful means more time for you enemies to interrupt your casting. Like lets say a yantra you are using needs moon light a opponent could find some way to block the moon light from you. Be ot casting your own spell, or some hunter throwing up some smoke bomb around you.
Say someone murdered Luna and Helios and Jupiter and all the others (Why the fuck is Helios a spirit on par with Luna, anyway? Why is Gaia rank 9? The shadow goes everywhere. Human devotion shouldn't mean anything.). Their supernal concept still exists, as do their material selves. I assume they just reform over time, even if slain at that single second they have essence zero?
>>46523949
I don't believe Dave or any other developer has ever given hard numbers for supernatural populations, 1e or 2e. The WW party line has always been that the populations are the number of individuals a player group wants or needs for their chronicle. Some splats are noted for being more "rare," such as prometheans or mummies, but no comparisons or controls were given to ascertain actual population figures.
>>46524066
OMG your that science guy from before!!!!
>>46524064
I don't really disagree, except to note that combat spells will more likely use easier quick and dirty Yantras like mundras or Path tools, rather than situational or environmental conditions outside of a mage's direct control.
>>46524091
>Some splats are noted for being more "rare," such as prometheans or mummies, but no comparisons or controls were given to ascertain actual population figures.
I think "there are less than a hundred Prometheans worldwide" made it into a book somewhere.
>>46524123
The fuck.
>>46524066
Human devotion generates essence suited to particular spirits like Helios and Luna.
>>46524133
True I see something like "dodging" as an yantra work very well.
>>46524169
Chris shat on that theory, Luna the spirit doesnt give an iota of a fuck about humans
>>46524169
Where's that one written?
>>46523888
>Minimum Mage population in a city is 50
Huh.
>>46524177
>True I see something like "dodging" as an yantra work very well.
I believe that would require the Adamantine Arrow Merit Adamant Hand with Athletics.
>>46524169
There was a guy on the thread before who believed that the sun should be the spirit that represents the spirit of change because of chemical reactions and such. While the moon should have been the spirit of stubbornness and stagnation because the moon does not change. He was throwing a fits about how science and the universe does not match up to the shadow.
>>46524158
Not so true, the emotions from prayers and faith feed some spirits, but for the moon only lunes get tht essences luna get it from the moon.
>>46524271
No, no, what the fuck is science guy.
>>46524295
he got his quotes wrong, read the first one.
Science guy threw a a hissy about Luna having the theme of change when the moon is just an unchanging lump of rock
>>46524238
Its the the minimum get a round about number for them. Also this if I recall correctly is for all mages not just pentacle mages.
>>46524295
Oh, wait, never mind.
But he has a point. Science guy. WOD cosmology is all kinds of fucked up, especially since their response is "DON'T TAKE THE GAMELINES TOGETHER", even if that's completely irrelevant to the situation.
>>46524271
Some people really have a hard time divorcing science from matters like magic and spirits in a fantasy horror setting.
They are usually "That Guy" when discussing anything to do with Mage.
>>46524238
>Tiny commuter town of 10k people in the Midwest, 45 minutes away from the nearest big city
>Has 50 mages living there investigating the secret occult matrixes of the local fast food, checking out folded space, wondering why literally no one has heard of this town, and dealing with the Worm Prince of Vampires and his brood, who dwell in the cave system under town and barely even pretend to be human anymore.
...Actually, yeah, this seems like a fun game.
>>46524336
>WOD cosmology is all kinds of fucked up
I think that's part of the point. OWoD is a world that's about to end and is growing increasingly crazy and bad every night. CofD presents a fundamentally broken, malfunctioning world of inexplicable horrors. Coherency is not high on either setting's priority list.
>>46524425
It's neither broken or malfunctioning. It's being fucked with by the god machine, and the animistic nature of the world means that it's far worse than it could be. The cosmology is presented as something that's supposed to be smooth and easy. Instead it's stupid. It's not even presented as broken deliberately. They're too lazy to even cover up their bullshit in a half arsed manner.
>>46524196
No, she doesn't, but she still gets Essence from them.
She gets Essence just for being a gigantic ball in the sky everything with eyes sees at least once a day.
>>46524066
Helios is one rank higher than Luna
Gaea is theorized to be rank 9, but no one's met her. Human devotion ADDS to things, but is not the sole component. Supernal doesn't mean shit.
>>46524490
>Supernal doesn't mean shit
>this_triggers_the_brookshaw.gif
>>46523723
>Standard logic is that normal : supernatural goes roughly 50,000 : 1
That's some dumbass logic of yours.
>>46523878
In 1e there's half a million werewolves in the world, compared to 180k vampires
>>46524514
>Rawr
>>46524514
It just triggers the fag who likes to stir up arguments between strawmen fans of lines
But Branford can suck a dick so who gives a shit
So hypothetically if WoD mages were in the Chronicles of Darkness, I feel the God Machine could be a product of the Technocracy.
I was thinking of them reawakening ancient technology and attempting to use it as some sort of overwhelming consensus machine that keeps certain laws of reality in check, but it eventually got out of hand and is at the most confidential of files in the organization.
Anyone got any other ways to tie Ascension to the New World of Darkness?
>>46524490
Really? Because about half a dozen people were arguing a few threads back that it did, that the god spirits could actually affect the supernal because they were up there. The same book that 'theorises' gaia as 9 and mentions Luna at rank 8 says Helios is the same rank in the same sentence.
Creating your own Infrastructure to augment the G-M as a Mage is Mind, Prime and Fate, right?
>>46523785
I did some (rough) math of my own. This here I'd counting a 10 as two successes, and is only tracking the chances of 1 success and 5 successes.
1d ~30% Success
2d ~50% Success
3d ~65% Success || ~1% Exceptional Success
4d ~76% Success || ~3% Exceptional Success
5d ~83% Success || ~6% Exceptional Success
6d ~88% Success || ~11% Exceptional Success
7d ~92% Success || ~17% Exceptional Success
8d ~94% Success || ~23% Exceptional Success
9d ~96% Success || ~31% Exceptional Success
10d ~97% Success || ~38% Exceptional Success
>>46524470
>It's neither broken or malfunctioning
Mage, Werewolf, and the current state of the Underworld and Shadow all disagree with you. It's been broken at least twice and probably more, and the God Machine is just fucking it up worse.
>>46524563
Well, the Old Man is pretty clearly a throwback to Voormas.
>>46524425
>>46524470
CofD cosmology isn't "broken" or unknowable
Your puny human minds simply lack the capacity to appreciate its complexity and beauty.
#stupidmonkeys
>>46524533
Still waiting on someone to deliver Komodo Dragon.
>>46524565
Yes, really.
>>46524587
The Underworld isn't broken, either is the Shadow. Pangaea is.
>>46524336
Null Mysteries would be a great compact for you then.
But in all seriousness while the shadow reflects the world, the reserve is also true. The moon we see could have phases because of the moons ever changing mood.
Here a bit from dark era
"Day and night occur in the Border Marches, but the sun is almost orange; the moon glimmers like liquid. These are the Luna and Helios of the Shadow seen through the Pangaean sky, not their physical reflections"
>>46524580
Counting a ten as two successes throws it pretty far out of whack. You've got a .33 chance to get 2 successes out of a single die with ten again.
>>46524607
Good to know you're right because you say so. Well done. So we'll know next time it comes up that spirits affecting the supernal with imperial mysteries isn't a thing, and it's just the supernal remaining inviolate, with mages on top. Hooray.
>>46524336
He sort of has a point, except that when talking about magical spirits, it's probably better to look at mythological and mystical traditions instead of science. In which case, the moon is very often associated with change, much more than the sun is.
Science guy has sound logic, but it is irrelevant logic.
>>46524625
>Pangaea broken
Maybe, or what happened to Pangaea is exactly according to a plan you just cannot understand
>>46524675
It's not the logic or the science of it, it's just the cosmology being completely out of whack.
>>46524599
Hmm, not sure if this is a seerer, demon, or angel?
>>46524625
Nope, even the God Machine thinks the underworld is broken. No joke, they call this out in the demon storytellers guide.
I swear the authors must come here to stir up shit. They could probably clear up the whole 'mages>all' thing with a few minutes to come up with some bullshit, but instead prefer SPOOKY MYSTERY.
>>46524717
It's not really out of whack, the moon represents change because it changes phases, the sun doesn't represent a nuclear furnace because it's what only 1% of the people in the world think of regarding the sun, and even then only recently.
>>46524770
I'm sorry that Vampires are so shit but please don't get mad at Mages :(
>>46524271
>There was a guy on the thread before who believed that the sun should be the spirit that represents the spirit of change because of chemical reactions and such
That was actually me. The Anon you think is me is someone else.
Wasn't because of "chemical reactions". Just the basic fact that the Sun stands for change, while the Moon is unchanging.
You know, basic common sense that should apply to any personification of those two that isn't 100% based on religions. Which Spirits aren't, so their their Resonances from before human times shouldn't be based on purely religous ideas that came around billions of years after their births.
>>46524760
The God Machine is broken, but it's not a major part of the cosmology.
>>46524770
You are the only one who's said mages are supreme in the whole thread.
>>46524783
It's ok, just go back in time and get his mother hooked on heroin.
boom, no more meany pants questioning mage supremacy
>>46524783
Cunt I play mortals and Changelings because I hate myself.
>>46524779
>>46524779
I'm not even talking about the pair, I mean the cosmology in general.
>>46524372
I'm basically in that game, except replace Midwest with Utah.
>>46524546
Is branford the Mage Supremacy fag?
>>46524785
Sun stands for change and Moon is unchanging according to what, exactly?
>>46524760
>>46524625
And thanks to Dark Eras, we even know some of how it's broken. The whole Underworld used to be the Ocean of Fragments, but it's been slooooowly draining for god only knows how long. The Dominions, the Rivers, the Kereboi, none of it is "supposed to" exist. It has no higher purpose or place.
>>46524785
>Which Spirits aren't, so their their Resonances from before human times shouldn't be based on purely religous ideas that came around billions of years after their births.
They aren't, but neither are they scientists. When they're not being influenced by humans, they're being influenced by animals and nature. All nature and animals get from the sun is heat and light, and sometimes too much of both.
>>46524770
>I swear the authors must come here to stir up shit.
I don't. I come here to see peoples' reactions to stuff, chat about the game and answer questions where a) I am qualified to do so and b) I feel like doing so.
>>46524844
You know, themselves. Comparatively speaking to each other, based on everything we know about them.
>>46524838
Yes. He also assures everyone there's a whole community of (whatever splat) people who don't like mages
>>46524847
That's not it being broken any more than a baby is broken because it grows into an adult
>>46524803
Do you not read the generals on a regular basis? We have half a dozen regular posters who go on about it and it routinely takes up multiple threads in argument, and then the trolls get stuck in. Also one of the trolls is here now. Hell. Here's a few others mentioning it.
>>46519933
>>46521427
>>46521495
>>46521578
>>46522017
And that's with a few seconds of searching. Not even all of them.
Out of the way, peasants. Certified official venue ranking here.
GOD TIER
Wraith, Apocalypse
GOOD TIER
Masquerade, Lost, Promethean, Vigil
ALRIGHT TIER
Geist, Old Hunter, Orpheus, Requiem, New Demon
WHAT EVEN TIER
Old Demon, Mummy, Orpheus
BAD TIER
Forsaken, Dreaming, Sabbat, Mage
KILL YOURSELF MY MAN TIER
Beast, Fan Venues, Anything 2nd Edition "CofD"
>>46524888
It's not my fault Mages are the absolutely best
>>46524914
I don't see anything wrong with this ranking.
>>46524929
why else would I put "certified" and "official" in there, friendo
>>46524914
>both Mage and Werewolf in Bad
I just want to dick around with Spirits
>>46524914
>ALRIGHT TIER
>Geist
Well you're obviously not old enough to be on 4chan
let m e guess, stylanski?
>>46524966
>not being a purified qt spirit skank
>>46524867
Chris, how dangerous would the Pangean 'Iron' be to things from Arcadia?
>>46524966
But Best Werewolf is God-tier, silly. Why would you muck around with watered down trash?
>>46524914
>BAD TIER
>Sabbat
What?
>>46524970
Geist would be Good tier if Wraith and Orpheus didn't exist.
>>46524997
Er, Christ, I dunno. I haven't read my Changeling 1e books for a while and I'm not sure how they're handling it in 2e, but presumably once the True Fae have made their contract with iron or whatever it was they did to end up with the iron bane, the Pangaean would be pretty terrifying for them to face.
>>46524848
>They aren't, but neither are they scientists.
You are correct. Which is why I would be just as happy if the Shadow spirits of Sun and Moon had no connection with either of the mentioned concepts.
I just dislike the situation as is because by the description we have from the Corebooks and the Book of Spirits a) religions know shit about spirit and b) Human ideas about spirits shouldn't be able to change powerful spirits like Luna and Helios at such a fundamental level.
Which means that Helios and Luna just happen to fit the mythical idea that Helios is unchanging and Luna everchanging "by pure chance". That irks me.
Either
- retcon Spirits that even the most powerful ones are defined at a fundamental level by human ideas about them.
- Clarify that this is just how they happen to be, no result of anything in specific, and myths actually got their ideas about the two from them and not the other way around.
- or change them into something that makes more sense with what we know about the celestial bodies they stand for.
>>46524868
Themselves? Do you mean things that science has gleaned about them? Or something else?
>>46525019
Sabbat is Columbine-wannabe nonsense friend, i'm sorry to inform you.
Maybe if they didn't include "butchering innocent people for teh lulz and teh pack bonding" as part of their regular activities it'd be salvageable.
>>46524914
>>46525049
>a) religions know shit about spirit
Well there are normal humans who have been in touch with the Shadow since the dawning of humanity
>b) Human ideas about spirits shouldn't be able to change powerful spirits like Luna and Helios at such a fundamental level.
They mostly add to it, it's not like "everybody, close your eyes at night and stop thinking about the moon" is going to destroy luna
Especially since there's a lot more than humanity influencing shit
The moon has been around longer than any life on earth, the sun even longer than the earth. they've gained Presence by simply existing and being there in the Shadow lording over all the other ancient spirits that no longer exist
Your suggestions are so revolved around humanity that you might be better served looking to the Astral realms, because you don't seem to "get" the shadow
>>46525081
No, you're comparing an in-game sect to game lines.
You're fucking retarded but it's a great bait, 9/10 got me to answer twice.
>>46524838
Branford here.
Not only do I not subscribe to the "Mage Supremacy" theory, I occasionally mock it here and hope the developers avoid anything to propagate it in the books.
For instance, if you check-out the OP forums, although I very much liked The Sundered World, I mentioned that I would have liked less of even a potential Supernal origin for Pangaeans and werewolves because I believe it might aggravate and encourage the foolish "Mage Supremacy" arguments.
What would make you think I'm the Anon(s) who insist mages are "supreme?"
All this mage supremacy wank is horse shit. Imperial Mysteries clearly paints the True Fae as rank 7 spirits that live in the realm of Arcadia. Page 64. As long as you're good with Fate, they're children to you, like most splats.
>>46525140
Sabbat is pretty much it's own game, senpai, and it's widely treated as such. Have you -met- any actual Sabbat fans?
>>46525158
>True Fae as rank 7 spirits that live in the realm of Arcadia
Which Arcadia?
>>46525158
>true fae are spirits
>spirits
see the good part about NWoD is that you can just
ignore
dumb shit like -that-!
>>46525223
>he thinks there's more than one
All "arcadia"s are just emanations of Arcadia present in the phenomenal world.
Don't be embarrassed, nobody expects you to get cosmology like a mage would, your experience and potential are just too limited.
>>46525258
But Mages know that Faerie and Supernal Arcadia are different. They know this, by looking.
>>46524914
Not the worst ranking list.
I thought everyone loved 2e Forsaken though.
>>46525288
Not nWoD haters.
>>46525288
It is the superior game. Some just have to troll.
>>46525288
Forsaken 2e was so much better than 1e that it was practically a totally new game, not just a new edition.
>>46525288
Everyone who never played Apocalypse or got fed the "muh captain planet furries" line did.
I have yet to meet anyone who actually sat down and played Apocalypse and can even look at Forsaken for more than an instant.
>>46525343
Then you need to meet new people.
Many of us have been around since the 1990's and experienced both Apocalypse and Forsaken. Thankfully, most of us have grown up and matured, and now much prefer Forsaken over the eco-terrorist manifesto aesthetic with horrid racist stereotype player splats of Apocalypse.
If Apocalypse was only "muh captain planet furries," it would be a significant improvement.
>>46525149
I don't really pay attention to who makes which posts over there.
>>46524546 was accusing you of being the Mage Supremacy fag.
>>46525432
>we're so mature and le grown up, we enjoy watered-down swill about muh territory and muh spirits
Apocalypse wasn't a game about "murderrape all of the oil riggers", scrub, it was a game about perseverence and hope and doing radical shit in the face of overwhelming odds. You've kidded yourself into thinking that some dreck about just staying in one little spot and scooby doo'ing spirit shenanigans while staying away from the big bad Pure is superior somehow.
>>46525276
No, it's cool. Imperial mysteries says you're wrong. The only thing that isn't 100% subject to Mages is Promethean, and even that's only as a thought experiment by the Boddhisatvas.
>>46525251
"Oh shit, we wrote ourselves into a corner."
"Meh, just tell them that it's a toolbox, not a setting. The idiots will defend it. You know: blah blah it's their really enlightened story telling method to give us half a dozen conflicting sentences."
Who invited /v/?
>>46525517
I wasn't defending it. It's shit writing. Most anything that's gotta do with mage has it.
But the fact that they in a way admit that a lot of it is shit writing, and they structure things so that you can ignore their garbage, is a silver lining.
