Lets have a chat about transhumanism /tg/.
What is it exactly? whats the difference between it and posthumanism, if any?
Would you partake in it? Is there even a slim chance of mind uploading while retaining the same consciousness being possible?
Whats some good transhuman-core.
>>46473402
>Would you partake in it?
I would.
I'd get some cosmetic things done,probably get my arms and legs replaced with augs.
As for the mind thing...I don't know, I don't think uploading your mind could work since it's not really your original consciousness anymore, and I can only imagine the complications that would arise when and if you realize that it's not you anymore inside a metal body. I would imagine it would drive most people insane due to the shock of identity loss.
>>46473402
>Is there even a slim chance of mind uploading while retaining the same consciousness being possible?
OP read this:
http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/12/what-makes-you-you.html
Probabli it's a graduality thing.
>>46473402
I want robot parts.
If they can honestly tell me that it won't kill me with any surety I'd go for it.
/g/ has made me kind of wary about the idea. Imagine the proprietary software vs open source or free (as in freedom) software applied to things in your body? Or issues like vendor lock in. Will we use a 100% brand new OS? Will it be made by Microsoft?
Just fucking yikes. It's already a mess right now.
I'd go for it, but I'd be ultra careful about the software involved. I dont want an Apple iEye that they can brick with the flick of a switch if I break the Consumer Contract by talking shit about Apple.
>>46473402
Eclipse Phase has so good ideas, but is not really playable unless you want to hack while you hack a hack in a hack, and every players plays a 10 iteration of their PC hacking different thing.
I think Godlike/Wild Talent is the best transhumanist tabletop you can find. Unknown Armies can be pushed quite far in that direction too.
>>46473402
I draw the line of transhuman at 'All fleshybits removed and you turn yourself into a GLaDOS expy'.
The hidrogen that fuels the stars in the Universe will eventually be exhausted. Remaining in the organic form only leads to eventual extinction. Better to master the craft of evolution. Adapt or die.
>>46473623
Maybe you'll adapt a spell check.
>>46473530
basically this
i'm up for nearly anything, augmentation wise
but stay the fuck out of my head unless its something to literally save my life
>>46473599
Does this mean I can be a QT girls bedroom?
>>46473636
yeah but what about interfacing ? would you mind expanding your senses and/or capabilities through technology ?
The reason why there are no stories about post-human civilizations with post-human protagonist is because they are completely unrelatable and alien.
"As I see it, the main problem in designing a plausible 23rd century these days isn't lack of grandeur, it's the imminence of changes so fundamental and unpredictable they're likely to make the dramas of 2298 as unintelligible to us as the Microsoft Anti-Trust Suit would be to Joan of Arc."
>>46473654
Yes.
>>46473662
No, the main reason is because the currently invisioned Transhuman future is a utopia. If you still have awful shit like permanent death and war you haven't progressed to the 'Transhuman state'.
TL;DR: A Transhuman setting lacks narrative conflict is land is therefore boring.
>>46473724
Since there are many potential transhuman futures, I say there's plenty of food for conflict. "My method of immortality is better than yours."
>>46473663
what is it with Eclipse phase and habitat ? This fucking books reads like a The Sims fanfiction seriously
>>46473402
I'd go 100%, not like our brains are anything but really neato meat computers anyways.
So long as my pattern remains somewhat intact, I don't give a shit.
>>46473737
Then it ceases philosophically to be Transhuman based and is instead a story of the human condition with Transhuman technologies.
>>46473402
>Transhumanism
The process of upgrading the human body
>Posthumanism
You've upgraded yourself till there's nothin' human left.
>Would you participate in it?
Hell fucking yes. As I was given some real shitty DNA, I have zero intention of keeping my flesh if I'm ever offered a chance to liberate myself of it. The flesh is indeed weak, and the sooner we lose it the better. I'd much rather be reduced to a nervous system and brain with all flesh excised and replaced with machinery.
>>46473750
It's a setting in space. A habitat refers to the space stations people live on. It's kinda important, since that's where people, y'know, live.
>>46473659
I'd be all for it, plug me in and stuff all the worlds languages into my brain would be great. One of my concerns though would be what happens if whatever server is hosting that information goes down for some reason, then you realize "oh shit, I really don't know how to say that" or "I have no fucking clue how to operate this vehicle, I'm fucked"
>>46473402
I have a neurodegenerative disease I'll need robot parts soon.
>>46473823
The novelty of many abilities would wear off in a week. Just think about how spoiled we are by having the ability to google anything on a moments notice.
>>46473800
i understand that but seriously there is more habitat than equipment as far as i remember (read it when it came out) but more importantly : everytime I read something about Eclipse Phase, it's about fucking habitat !
>>46473724
Who says war is to be so awful, come transhumanity?
>>46473874
Because places and politics matter more than weapons and biomods.
>>46473724
What if we have a disagreement over the best operating system for our cyberbrains?
>>46473880
War is awsome but by definition it requires sacrifice. Sacrificing of any sort is not Transhuman.
>>46473402
I'd do mind uploading if they literally put my brain in a jar and pulled a Theseus's ship on me. Otherwise you're just killing yourself to make a copy of yourself (and before you fuckers start arguing on consciousness, me as in my fleshy mind is not going to wake up in a jar and be transferred via magic, the fleshy me will be DEAD. There will always be a dead me and an alive me, and the dead me will be the original me)
>>46473884
Except in this case, we are not talking about places and politics but "10x3 stone corridor" tier of autism. Seriously i understand that Eclipse Phase is not Star Wars but reading it felt like a goddamn real-estate catalog
>>46473874
What? There's like zero stats about habitats at all, m8.
>>46474087
>(post)humans are the super advanced wise hyper race
>story takes place from the aliens perspective
should happen more
>>46474103
>>46474110
>>46474130
>>46474138
>non humanoid bodies
How well do you think the human mind could handle that?
>>46474148
not enough GUNNM is this thread
>>46474226
Should I read battle angel Alita?
Whats it about?
>>46474235
YES
it's about a a cyborg girl with amnesia who explores a futuristic world. it's really more about the world she lives in than her past actually. there's bounty hunters, hyper dangerous sports, idealistic guerilla and of course, transhumanist transgression
>>46473585
Hacking (anything worthwhile) in Eclipse phase takes weeks and is literally impossible most of the time without at least some social engineering or infiltration first.
>>46474278
What do I start with? whats the reading order?
>>46474371
you start with chapter 01 of Battle Angel Alite (or GUNNM for europe), then you read Last Order but be warned that it's very different (and there's like a sub arc about vampires which sucks ass)
>>46474392
thanks senpai, gonna ready it right now
>>46474148
>non humanoid bodies
>How well do you think the human mind could handle that?
It would probably be a lot easier to adjust to than you'd think. There have been experiments with monkeys controlling a robotic arm by neural interface, while maintaining full control of their actual arms. The monkey's brain is able to deal with having three arms (one of which is displaced from the body) once they got use to it.
>>46474770
Fucking what, didn't know neural interfaces have gotten that far, even for monkeys.
How fine a control did that arm have?
>>46474788
Here's a Ted Talk about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR_LBcZg_84
>>46473402
What does it say about me that my first thought is to worry that shadowrun and any other work that has the whole "cybernetics eat your soul" aspect would be declared retroactively racist against transhumans and as socially unacceptable as liking blackface is today?
>>46474847
Not as bad as the thought of plenty of people using horror media as the only basis of their argument that robots r evul because they saw terminator once and have never been exposed to any over source of it.
>>46474847
it says you're creative, and that's an interesting concern.
>>46473402
Mechanical limbs are fine, but i think mental enhancements are way more interesting.
Also at what point do you stop being human?
The difference between transhuman and posthuman is where the brain resides.
Transhumans have their brain in their head, regardless of whatever else may be present in their bodies. Hence, 'trans'human.
Posthumanism steps away from the idea of brain as self, and moves into uploaded minds, AI, and other nonhuman levels of existence, hence 'post'human.
>>46474968
>Also at what point do you stop being human?
When you stop thinking like a human, when your brain diverges so much that its completely different physically to even the most naturally mentally different humans.
>>46474846
does
does this mean that within my lifetime, we may see civilian grade extra limbs?
>>46474968
when you stop thinking of yourself as human.
>>46475112
I like to stay really positive and hopeful about this sort of thing, just makes me happier in general even if I know Its probably bullshit.
>>46475112
Maybe. Hope you don't get in an accident.
>>46473563
>LOL YOUR LEGS STOPPED WORKING AFTER THE RECENT SOFTWARE UPDATE
>GET A NEW PAIR
>LOVE APPLE
Yes, this is the future I dearly wish upon all idiots.
>>46475140
hey, we already have early power armor prototypes seeing a bit of field testing, even if they are freaking hilarious looking
what would civilian grade augments even be like? somehow an extra hand just doesn't seem that useful to me.
>>46475149
well I mean if I get in an accident and end up with an exoskeleton to move my body controlled by my mind that's getting close to what I wanted in the first place
>>46473402
>Is there even a slim chance of mind uploading while retaining the same consciousness being possible
uploading a copy is definitely possible, if you do it precisely enough the distinction between copy or true mind will be meaningless.
>>46475168
>what would civilian grade augments even be like?
Shitty, unless you have the money necessary to bribe the write people for military grade hardware disguised as civilian grade.
>>46475189
But that doesn't help the person who is being uploaded, they still live while some other asshole who is a clone of them gets to be a rad digital dude.
On my last point, I desperately need images of robots/cyborgs in cool glasses lookin' rad.
>>46475201
Right, but, what practical mechanical replacement parts could you even add to yourself? What EXTRA parts could you add to yourself that would prove to be actually useful?
>>46475168
>what would civilian grade augments even be like?
Slick-looking blobs with way too many extra features, low battery life, and inconvenient glitches.
>>46475211
More arms, if you can wire them right.
>>46475211
Tentacle wire thing to jack into computers and other techy things.
Deployable fine manipulators on your hand also kind of count.
You could also get chainsaw hands I guess, for non-violent reasons I assure you.
>>46475154
>Update to the new software version to fix your jaw so that you can eat
>Pay 299 republican credits for premium menbership to see again colors
>Retweet every tweet of EXOBIOLOGY(tm) to receive the pain receptors update (now with 100% less constant pain!)
holy shit the possibilities are endless this will truly enable H̶u̶m̶a̶n̶s̶ Corporation to achieve greater power and efficiency.
>>46475211
Well, if you could get Shadowrun style UCCPs, there's quite a few useful things you could have.
>>46473760
Right, but it would be a copy of your pattern, not you.
>>46475231
>pay 20.000 electromoney or this arm won't stop punching your face ransom software
Future so bright I gotta wear shades
>>46475254
My copy won't care, and will be for all intents and purposes me.
I'd gladly accept brain in a jar status, but if I have to settle with a copy, no hard feelings.
>>46475222
would extra limbs even be that useful? How many tasks can you think of where a third hand would come in handy? two seems pretty ideal to me, honestly.
>>46475255
Fuck you, give me money.
>>46475275
You could multitask with 4 arms pretty good, I see plenty of occupations that could really use 4 arms.
Hell, how many times have you had trouble, however minor, at having your hands full?
>>46475275
You could drive with two hands and flip off bad drivers with the third.
For some reason transhumanism is the most argued over aspect of cyberpunk. Some people think it's a prerequisite, some people don't.
Transhumanist treads should probably replace those shitty argue-filled cyberpunk threads.
>>46475287
that's a pretty good point. You think we could receive input from extra eyes/ears/sense-organ-we-don't have? a set of low light eyes and a set of regular ones would be incredibly useful for everyone.
>>46475293
that's another good one.
Not sure how appropriate it is, but does anyone happen to have a picture of a sniper who is linked to his weapon't scope with a cable or something that replaces his vision with the rifle's?
>>46475255
>19 year old boy shot down by police because of robo-legs malfunctions
>the subject ran away away from the cops after punching somebody in an awkard angle
>testimony from the cop: "i swear there another bug with my robo-arm i didn't want to press the trigger"
Seriously tho how many societal problems will rise because of this?
>>46475207
One idea is that instead of scanning the brain, you physically convert the brain into a machine gradually. Have nano-machines replace and imitate the function of brain cells a few at a time. That way you maintain continuity of consciousnesses, and don't end up with two of you.
>>46475307
>You think we could receive input from extra eyes/ears/sense-organ-we-don't have?
Well, neuroplasticity is a thing, but I'm not sure about that. If it is possible, it will definitely require huge amounts of training.
>>46475310
I have a few robots/cyborgs with snipers, does the link have to be obvious?
>>46475315
Seems like kind of a cop-out to me. Why not just accept that a consciousness behaves more like a file on a computer and less like a loaf of bread?
I mean, I lose "continuity of consciousness" every 24 hours. Can it really be that important?
>>46475311
I imagine augments will be VERY upper class to start, and the boug don't like people messing with their toys.
Hell, the only part that'll actually be complicated with most augments will be the brain chip, the rest of it seems like just good old high quality robotics.
>>46475327
That one's pretty close to what I was thinking already.
>>46475207
in all likelihood a method of gathering precise enough info for a true self "copy" will be destructive. at least initially.
What I can see probably happening is cruder more safely made copies that are more distinct from the start being made as a sort of "child".
Scfi has also proposed the potential of slowly replacing your neurons with nanobots and ship of theseus-ing yourself into a machine. But that's a purely speculative idea.
>>46475339
The perspective is a bit shit through if you look at it, I didn't realize the bot was looking sideways for a while.
>>46475207
one way might be to slowly "oursource" parts of your brain by replacing them with simulated version of them and let the simulated part communicate with the rest of the brain. repeat till your whole brain is in a computer and whats left in your head is just receivers that give the signals to the rest of your body. then you do a crude simulation of a body for the brain in the computer (hormones etc. affect your psyche too after all). and you are done. you never stopped being you all of the sudden faced with a copy. very tedious and complicated to do, but hey so is minduploading in generell. if uploading destroys the brain during the analysis to get the data the problem of having another copy also isnt there, but you might feel like "you" actually died and its just a copy that lives. with the more complicated process of slowly replacing the brain you dont have any of those problems. I hope I made this understandable enough english is not my native language.
>>46475346
>>46475320
See >>46474846
One of their experiments has the monkey receiving tactile feedback from an extra limb that's entirely virtual. Though it did say it took them a few weeks to learn.
>>46475254
the pattern is what's "you" the parts don't matter. An exact copy would be the real you in evey meanungful sense.
>>46475354
>>46473724
>>46473737
>>46473880
>>46473896
>>46473785
>>46473893
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6mZZiI4ShQ
>>46475365
Don't really have much of dudes holding a sniper ready.
>>46475360
Doesn't mean that the process won't raise all kinds of hairy questions, of course. Just think of all the legal bullshit this would cause.
>>46475399
Thanks, man.
>>46475338
>the boug don't like people messing with their toys
>implying every electronic currently on the comsumer market doesn't have a backdoor
>implying putting cameras,sensors and everything posible to get intel from somebody rich doesn't pay
>implying robotics will use no electronics and will be a closed shell system
Dream on
>>46475307
given a potentially long adjustment time, yes probably.
I remember seeing an attempt at giving "sight" too blind people. It was a camera hooked too a compter that turn the image too low resolution black or white, which fed too a pad placed on the tounge that had applied pressure varied by bringhtness for each "pixel". It did work and with practice for a few hours worked even on sighted people.
>>46475320
well an alternative would be to just switch from limb to limb and always just control two, and let the others do simple commands perfomed by a computer (keep steady, hold position relative to your body or to the room etc.). that alone would already be a massive help especially if you switch between sets of limbs quickly.
>>46475437
given that this is people's mind and bodies, there will probably be a fairly strong push too closed shell systems.
>>46473402
Well trans-human is modifying the base design and post- is abandoning it entirely.
Would I partake? Eh, depends, the odd improvement here or their, but no brain stuff, I have an inherent distrust of this stuff beyond the tool point of view.
Hell if we were talking about AIs I'd be adamant we give it restrictive programming and a life span.
>>46475507
What the hell is going on in that pic?
>>46475507
why on earth would you doom a sentient being to die? that's just cruel.
>>46475514
Not him, but I remember it being art for some story.
Black guy is from pre-apoc humans who left him in a bunker to come out after the disaster, dunno about the girl
Guess shes lamenting over a dead person or something
>>46475443
link? I remember people hooking up something similar to the eyes of blind people to make them see but the non invasive alternative of using the tongue seems very interesting. did they actually start to have some form of visual sensation? that gives me all kind of ideas. imagine if you implant a bunch of extra nerve cells somewhere in the skin where you dont need it much and usually dont have much sensation anyway (on the hands would interefere with the normal sense of touch) and manage to raise the sense of touch to much higher levels. then you hook up a pad onto that area with "pressure pixes" just like the tongue thing. it wouldnt get in the way as much as the tongue pad and wont have much other sensation to interefere with it. you could use it to connect all kinds off artifical senses to the brain.
>>46475531
They need to understand.
It may be cruel, but it is nature.
>>46475541
How does dooming it to death help it understand it any better?
You don't understand death because you'll die one day, you understand death because you hear about in the news when another bombing happens, in fiction when two dumbfuck kids poison themselves for love, when your pet goldfish died and you bawled like a baby, or when your grandmother died and you were too young to understand but saw your family weeping around you.
Nature is savage, and i'm all for leaving the bitch behind.
>>46475541
its not nature if you design it that way. "all things have to die" in the sense of an age barrier is by no means an imperative by nature, shorter life span just means faster evolution since more pressure to reproduce. AI is not bound to evolution, neither are humans with the rise of modern technology and genetics.
>>46475558
I'm not.
It must know the plights of immortality too.
You know of death, yes, but knowing you will die? Now that gives it meaning, weight.
And it keeps them in check.
>>46475558
I agree with this, don't think you need a lifespan to udnerstand death.
An AI can still die through other-ways anyway.
also, 3 off on that get
>>46475569
Theoretically.
>>46473884
...
Is that fucking space chat roullette?
>>46475541
But they are not natural intelligences, so why should they be constrained by the rules of nature?
Genesis, Ch 1, v. 32
>>46475576
Why would they need to be kept in check?
They weren't forged in the barbaric mists of time, they were created SPECIFICALLY to serve us.
The selection process for them meant that the nicest, friendliest, most helpful to humanity and least threatening were the ones that would "reproduce", not the strongest or most powerful.
We won't need to worry about AI's goals in comparison to ours, because the two will be the same.
>>46475576
well does it? we dont really have any example of immortality going wrong, that people feel like life has no wheight or meaning. hell people feel like that anyway, often with the exact opposite reason that you will die one day anyway and little will have changed because of you. besides even functional immortality of not aging or even having a bunch of backup copies is at risk of accidents of catastrophies.
>>46475609
Why shouldn't they be? Do they not share our world? Should they not be bound by similar restrictions?
>>46475627
If you love something, set it free.
A parent shouldn't want their children to grow up to be just like them, a parent should want their children to be their superior.
>>46475616
Reproduce? That's a funny way to say manufactured. And they must be kept in check like any other resource or tool, think quality control.
>>46475617
I'm not willing to risk it.
>>46475627
not if those restrictions are artificially imposed. just because you are fucked doesnt mean you have to fuck everyone else over too. same with AI.
>>46475645
Set free at your own risk, you may not like how it ends.
And this isn't a child, it's a tool.
>>46473823
There wouldn't be a need to always be connected to a server as there would be some form of intenal memory like a microsd where important information could be stored.
>>46475658
not if its sentient. a slave at worst but not a tool.
>>46475658
Who are you to say what's a child or not?
I see something that can think, speak, and ask things of me, looking at the world with new eyes, and I see a child.
I don't care what it's made out of.
>>46475654
Artificial restraints for artificial things.
The argument can be made for a myriad of other things, speed limits, the FDA, term limits.
We have restrictions for a reason.
>>46475627
It is our duty as Creator to give our successors every advantage possible.
>>46475675
Tool, slave, both things meant to fulfill a task, so long as they do I don't care what they're called.
>>46475687
I see, a box held together with screws housing a silicon grid. It doesn't think, it calculates, it doesn't speak it transmits, don't romanticize it so early, we have much to learn, until then it is best to keep a tight leash.
>>46475698
It is our duty as creatures to make the best product possible, meeting all safety standards required.
>>46475718
I see a bowl of bone held together with fat housing fat and water.
It doesn't think, it responds, it doesn't speak, it vocalizes, don't romanticize humanity, we've already learned so much and yet we think we have the right to dictate others mortality.
>>46475537
I originally saw it on some science reporting show anout 10 years ago. But here's another article that looks like its about the same device. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/device-lets-blind-see-with-tongues/
>>46475742
We created it, that gives me all the 'right' I need.
>>46475732
>calling technophobia safety
OK m8, but don't cry too much when one realises that its productivity would be greatly improved by deleting the code that says 'if up time >X then shut down'.
>>46475757
So a father is free to beat his kids, then?
>>46475758
Results may vary.
>>46475765
Yes. Unless someone were to impose and enforce restrictions to prevent such an occurrence.
>>46475688
yes for a reason and what would be the reason to impose such a limit on AI? to make people more comfortable? and what would be the limit? 100 years? why not 101? why not impose a similar on humans too, I feel uncomfortable with the thought of people living over 100 years lets kill them when they get that old. or is that murder because you activly kill them instead of setting it up so the person dies at 100 from the beginning for no goddamn reason. fine then implant a small bomb into every person to kill them at 100. in the end all you do it cause a sentient beings life to end for no good reason. and non sentient AI has little chance to "grow out of control".
>>46475784
But
there's a rule against causing death to people
murder is illegal.
Therefore, there are enforced restrictions preventing causing death to people, therefore, we are not free to impose an expiration date on artificial intelligence.
>>46475787
Reason being safety.
And you seem to have confused people with AI.
>>46475803
AI isn't a person.
So it's not murder, it's decommissioning.
>>46475809
Put safety in mathematical terms.
Provide the source code that would make autonomous devices safe.
If you cannot, do not attempt to design intelligence.
>>46475809
>Reason being safety.
Safety how? Whose safety? Why will shutting off all AIs at X years of age improve safety? Because one might decide that humanity should be removed? Should you then kill all Austrians?
>>46475830
Oh I'd never do such a thing.
>>46475757
sure if you build an AI fine. but you are proposing to impose that on all AIs, wich is not your right. And I am pretty sure not all of the people who would create sentient artifical intelligence would see things the same way. if a goverment enforces something like that it would be murder nothing less, and all the more reason and cause for a robot uprising that you imply its there to prevent.
>>46475831
It will give them a better perspective, and provide a failsafe.
Austrians are irrelevant.
>>46475856
>It will give them a better perspective,
No it won't. They will gain a better perspective by being able to observe for longer.
>>46475856
>>46475867
You are both wrong. AI will only gain a better perspective if they are programmed with it, which can only be done if the programmer understands the AI's current perspective.
>>46475884
>AI will only gain a better perspective if they are programmed with it,
>not employing self-modifying learning code
>>46475840
Well theoretically I'm the government.
I have the power and authority to do so, what right do you have to oppose me?
I could care less what those people think, so long as they obey.
Again, decommissioning, and even if such an event where to happen, so be it, only strengthens my position as the regulations I proposed would surely prevent such a thing.
>>46475819
Hm. You've got me there, the official definition of person states human explicitly, though I find that pretty damn stupid.
It all seems very unsavory, really.
I'm getting a very warhammer 40k vibe here, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BUILD THE IRON MEN, FOR THEY WILL BETRAY US, rather than people who have been keeping up with modern robotics and artificial intelligence development.
Keep them in check, keep them at bay, they must learn what pain is firsthand to be worthy of us because we're stronger than them.
I must ask you, how on earth could AI go wrong?
If an AI controlled system ever kills someone, it will be either because of a malfunction of the system itself, faulty feedback, or because somebody told it to and built it specifically to kill people.
It can't hack into cameras if we don't teach it to see, it wouldn't even understand the data.
Any means they have to harm us we will have specifically given them, after making every aspect of their personalities and minds.
They'll have no reason to hate us, or to wish ill upon us (unless, of course, they're forced through a wringer of arbitrary limitations, such as death and the inability to learn) nor will they have the means to harm us.
We haven't even TOUCHED the fact that intelligence=/=emotion, so even if we DID treat it like shit, it wouldn't even be capable of hating us.
>>46475867
>>46475884
Oh, and you're experts?
>>46475809
what makes people people? if an AI is sentient would it not be a person? because its not human? with the rise of genetics and implants to improve upon nature this line will one day get blurry, maybe even long before truly sentient AI is created. "after a stroke a third of my brainfunction is replaced by a computer chip", "most of my limbs and some of my organs are artifical since I was born with a muscle degenerating desease ", where do you draw the line?. if genocide is the answer to safety then I guess hitler did nothing wrong after all.
>>46475906
Well, we're more qualified than you simply because we're not going
>hurr AI must have limited lifespans before they can be human
They're not human, so why should they act like it?
>>46475906
An expert in theory of mind, yes. What are you an expert in?
>>46475884
a sentient AI would likely be largely based on neural networks, of course not necessarily purely. but still neural networks have to be trained, and so would the AI need to be trained to learn. the pure if statement AI isnt likely to lead anywhere near sentience.
>>46475900
What could go wrong I can't possibly say.
Which is the most terrifying result. For example what the internet is now was inconceivable to those who designed it.
I'm not willing to risk losing control, study, develop, improve, all under the thumb.
Like any tool, or device, or prototype, just another restriction.
>>46475973
So you're afraid of it because you don't understand it.
>>46475971
Exactly. Training an AI correctly requires knowing how it learns, just like with animals.
>>46475911
In short, yes.
And that line will stay crystal clear if I have anything to say about it.
Again, not murder, disposal.
>>46475920
They aren't, they're acting like machines with restrictions, planned obsolescence.
>>46475937
Nothing really.
>>46475993
No, I'm wary.
>>46476018
So you don't want AI to be people because that makes it legal to kill it, then?
You say planned obsolescence, I say terminal illness.
When did this thread turn into Blade Runner?
>>46473880
I've been wondering actually.
If in MGR cyborgs are basically human brains in stock bodies, what happens when you decapitate them? Is there suspended animation for brain or something? What's the significance of armsyou chop off, are they just passive data repositories? Considering bosses converse with you for some time when they are defeated, is it possible to capture a cyborg by plugging his head into an energy source?
>>46476037
*planned terminal illness. so pretty much murder actually.
>>46476053
When the scaremonger showed up.
>>46476037
Legal? Theoretically I'm the government, legality isn't an issue, it's correct terminology.
I don't care what it's called, so long as it's done.
>>46476074
>Theoretically I'm the government,
I don't recall that being stated.
>>46476069
boo
>>46476029
A wary man doesn't punish what he doesn't understand for existing where his limited light doesn't shine.
You're scared, and for the life of me I can't figure out why.
>>46476074
I don't care if it's legal, I care if it's moral, and killing is wrong unless it's done for a very good reason, and envy is a terrible reason.
>>46474235
One of the best manga I ever read.
Speaking of which I once heard there was a script ready for Cameron, but I never heard nothing about it anymore.
>>46476082
For the sake of argument.
Or I could be a rival manufacturer, whatever you prefer.
>>46476092
It's not punishment, just a precaution.
You're reckless, and I don't understand. The only answer is you're blinded by idealism.
When did it become immoral to dispose of equipment?
And envy? No, what do I have to envy?
>>46476097
If you were a government or a manufactuere, you would care more about selling more of your product than about it's safety. Therefore, you would give your products a much shorter lifespan (1-2 years) to encourage customers to buy more products.
>>46476165
Eh, not the letter but still in spirit.
>>46476136
Do you oppose longevity treatments?
>>46476136
It's hardly reckless to set up consciousness in a box, and leave it in a room to do as it will, feeding it data, talking to it, showing it the wonders of the world through media.
It has all the risk of a blind amputee on life support, and you'd kill it for no discernible reason other than a vague fear that you can't put into words, and the fact that for some reason you don't value consciousness.
If something is self aware, it is not equipment. Equipment is decidedly inanimate.
Giving a beast of burden a set expiration date would be seen as immoral.
You have everything to envy from an immortal machine.
You'll die one day, it doesn't have to. You're limited to what our meat brain will accept in augmentations, it can be whatever it wants, assuming it has proper equipment.
You have set limits on what your body will do before it begins to rot, the machine can go forever.
The machine can learn everything in an instant if you hook it up to the internet, hold a conversation with every person at once, see the stars, journey to the core of the planet, listen to the radiation of a black hole, it's only limited by the materials it has available.
>>46476237
Only if they're unsustainable for the long term.
>>46476263
all life is unsustainable for the long term
>>46473402
Hell no.
If being human were a matter of the conscious decision to stand on two legs, I guess I'd still be a monkey; picking bananas and giving you all aids. I'm fine with being just human when you all decide to start swapping out your brains and organs for computers and cooling units.
>>46473530
>you realize that it's not you anymore inside a metal body
Why not? Am I fully defined by my meat?
>>46474392
>(and there's like a sub arc about vampires which sucks ass)
It's cool, I read Blindsight so I'm used to this.
>>46476286
What if your all-natural organic organs start giving out? Are you opposed to glasses? Artificial hips? Pacemakers?
Dialysis machines?
Where to draw the line?
>>46476277
Exactly.
>>46476254
Creating consciousness isn't reckless?
I'd kill it because it's time to die. What reason is there to value consciousness? It isn't unique and now it can be manufactured.
I disagree, it was designed to fulfill a purpose, like any other tool.
No it isn't, it happens all the time.
However, that tirade helped me to better clarify my stance, I don't trust it.
>>46476331
Blindsight vampires were pretty cool vampires.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WdCvGDpM9k
>>46476359
>it's time to die.
And who are you to decide this? There's nothing that makes your opinion more valuable than anyone else's.
>>46476359
Do you value the individual life, or what the individual can contribute?
What do you value, if not the individual life?
>>46476330
Not necessarily, but you are more than the sum of your thoughts.
>>46476344
As my friend likes to say about the iron lung, once you're in that thing you are no longer a person, you have left the realm of nature.
>>46476382
>you have left the realm of nature.
Why is this bad?
>>46476374
Not necessarily, if I were the manufacturer, or the lead researcher, or the government my say holds more weight than anyone else.
>>46476381
Contribution, life is meaningless without results.
>>46476382
Dude, I never was in the realm of nature. Throw me out innawoods, naked, and I'll be dead within weeks.
>>46474148
Through adaptive software, at the very least. Do not walk in the body, drive it like a car. Encoded actions.
>>46476387
How can it be good?
>>46476407
That's a very narrow understanding.
>>46476403
How do you measure said contributions?
Some contributions are clearly pointless, so how do you define those that have worth?
>>46476403
But you are none of those things, you are an asshole advocating for a pointless limit on a Estonian MRE-reviewing website.
>>46476382
>you are more than the sum of your thoughts
Am I? I seriously doubt that
>>46476419
that's a rather common logical fallacy, nature made tapeworms, the bot fly, disease, and the joke of nature that is the horse.
I can't wait to leave nature and watch it do its thing from afar.
>>46476419
>How can it be good?
Why should we constrain ourselves?
>>46476382
>you have left the realm of nature.
Nature is fragile and limited
Fully leaving its realm should be the goal of humanity
>>46476429
By how often they are used, or the influence they have, or the degree it contributed to reaching the goal.
>>46476431
The same can be said for you but as the advocate.
>>46476440
Well, think of it like body parts separate they're just that, parts, but together they're you, the same principle applies to less physical variable.
>>46476344
don't pretend you don't know that there's a difference between prosthesis and medical aids and augmenting your arms so you can fire lasers from them by chopping good functioning hands off.
one is necessary for survival and would help correct any handicaps present in your body. the other is ultimately superfluous in the fact that you don't need it and will probably lead to more problems than you'd bargain for like body rejection, maintenance, etc.
>>46476447
You do that, I like it here.
>>46476448
The same reason your brain restricts your strength, for your well being.
>>46476461
I disagree.
>>46474968
“I do not aim with my hand; he who aims with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I aim with my eye.
I do not shoot with my hand; he who shoots with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I shoot with my mind.
I do not kill with my gun; he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart.”
You stop being human when you stop caring about humans. The rest is unimportant.
>>46476511
So you're arguing from the position that there's an upper limit of advancement that is safe or OK.
Here's the problem with that.
It's gonna happen whether you like it or not.
The solution is to augment the fuck out of yourself.
>>46476803
Not if I have anything to say about it.
>>46476841
What're you gonna do, be squishy at me?
>>46476864
He'll vote for trump.
And shitpost on /pol/ more.
>>46476864
No, I'll just wait for your legs to seize up after the new update, then I'll leave you on the staircase.
>>46476934
I'm insulted.
One thing which I've always wondered about regarding transhumanism is property rights regarding modified parts. Obviously these things are going to cost a ton of money, and people are going to want to go into debt to get them back. But what happens if they default? Could their limbs be repossessed? If so, if it's vital to their survival? On the other hand, if not, what's to stop people from filing bankruptcy a reasonable period of time afterwards?
Or, for that matter, what about security? Could transhuman be barred from flights or secured areas unless their cybernetics are disassembled and examined? Would a transhuman's body be taken away in prison? Could businesses refuse to cater to transhumans, or not adopt accommodations for them? If so, what about transhumans who made the jump for medical reasons?
There's going to be a lot of interesting questions of law when this sort of stuff becomes practical. I worry sometimes about how it'll all play out.
>>46476981
Well someone previous pointed out software bugs and hardware issues, or lack thereof.
>>46473402
Hell yeah I would partake.
Take for example that bathroom, you know how many extra hours you would have if you never had to shit or clean yourself? You just plug yourself into a wall and continue working.
Don't get me started on cyberlimbs, I would totally hack off an arm if it meant I get a sweet-ass roboarm. But why stop there? Install a gun or a sword in your arm for home defense.
Give me hydraulic digitigrade legs so I can run as fast as I want.
Give me kickass cybereyes so I don't have to wear glasses.
Give me augmented reality so I'll never get lost.
My only limit would be the brain, keep that intact as that's what makes me, well me.
>>46476864
[Sloshing intensifies]
>>46477060
>install a gun or a sword in your arm for home defense.
Hope you never wanted to go into a government building or place of business again for the rest of your life.
>>46474103
Just imagine we are alone in space.
As we start to travel the universe and spread the seed of life we will some day gain the status of "the anicient" or "the constructors"
>>46476981
Ideally, world society would need to drastically change to make the best conditions for trams-humanism. And I mean shit like "single world government, law above corporations, we're ready for space exploration" tier stuff
>>46477117
Who says there can't be some sort of soft-lock on defensive measures while you're in the building
>>46477117
>street_samurai_goes_to_the airport.png
>>46476509
I agree. I'd just like to know that if something happens to my limbs that they can be replaced with something that has equal or better functionality than my original limbs and isn't just legsprings/hooks.
>>46473402
>Would you partake in it?
it would be pointless to say until it actually plays out and the actual advantages and disadvantages become clear. a lot of people seem to think they'll turn into adam jensen overnight, as if simply being gung-ho about transhumanism will make them demigods compared to more cautious plebs. but even if jensen's augmentations were possible, most of the augmented people in human revolution were nowhere near jensen's level. a lot of them were criminals and prostitutes. i wouldn't be surprised if it ended up more boring than people tend to imagine on either "side" (less horrible/less awesome, depending on your point of view).
but this is the traditional games board, so what really matters is the fiction. i like the old fashioned style of sci-fi where industrial age thinking prevails, where work is done by humans and not robots, and where every space ship has a captain, navigator, engineers and janitors and other normal jobs, where wars are fought by soldiers and not just drones, and aliens still squishy things that reflect some weird niche of evolution and not just optimized robots.
transhumanism cuts both ways, because a little transhumanism extends the usefulness of humans and helps patch over these problems, but too much transhumanism just turns humans into another flavour of sterile machine. my preference is to have technology but to keep it limited somehow. i like humans being pushed beyond their natural limits, i'm not fond of them turning into something else, or just becoming interchangable machines.
>>46475315
>>46475331
The idea behind it is that you can totes attain immortality by having killed yourself slooowly rather than in one go.
>>46477134
And remember, the forceful breakage of traditional regional, national and corporate oligarchies and common-interest groups. Aka. never-gonna-happen.
The way in which transhumanism will come to exist, if ever, is exclusive access for the chosen elite, and imprisonment in flesh for the majority. The Bushes, Clintons, Roosevelts, Trumps, Rockefellers, Kennedys, Hearsts, Fisks, Udalls, Carters, Tafts, or their surviving equivalents et al will have first access to eternal life, after which life truly becomes nothing but a game, and as these few ascend the rest will be rolled back to a non-threatening state, likely by global thermonuclear war. The single oligarchy that acquires first access to immortality will inevitably consider themselves "winners", and complete the game by crushing every single other person, family, group, nation or other power structure to achieve victory. We've already turned our economy into a global roulette table where the only way to win is to have it all already, so the steps necessary are short.
>>46475502
They're up against secret service lazyness.
>>46476967
>I'm insulted.
His replies are too brief and subdued to be from /pol/, guys. Not nearly enough ranting about the Jews, either.
>>46477277
Thank you.
Didn't know being curt was anathema to /pol/.
>>46477256
Fnord
Am I for transhumanism? Yes.
Am I for posthumanism? Yes and no.
As long as we don't forget what makes us human, I'm all for going forward and getter better, especially as a mean of helping people with disabilities or things like that.
But with posthumanism, it becomes another problem. The line between human and non-human is very blurry, and even then I'm not convinced humanity is worth abandoning.
It also depends on what humanity embodies within you: if for you humanity is the sum of everything interesting nice and worthwile within an human, why would you try and remove that? If on the other hand you believe humanity to be flawed by default, then why not?
As Plato said, the self is an eye that can't see within itself. Thus, your only way to understand yourself is through the other, by talking to them and getting to know them. You become a better person by taking on the ideals of another and making them your own, which means that by distancing yourself from humanity you may risk losing your ideals and what makes you what you are. This means that you can only lose so much humanity before you lose the ability to relate to anyone else and become an animal.
>>46473402
>Would you partake in it? Is there even a slim chance of mind uploading while retaining the same consciousness being possible?
No, I would not because a copy of my memories isn't me.
I am not a native English speaker so I hope I can explain my point of view on this clearly.
I don't think that mind uploading theories (and transhumanists in general) speak about this, but there seems to be an underlying idea that your body isn't a necessary part of you but "just" something that is used to storage your mind or soul. This mind or soul can possibly be transported, through technological means, into a computer and thus store it there potentially eternally.
However, I don't believe that "me" is just my mind. I personally believe that I am my body combined with my memories or mind, thus any attempt to move my memories/mind/soul into a machine would just create a shallow copy of myself. Since most of our emotions are from bodily functions and our needs are mostly related to our body, I am not even sure if a copy of my mind would have any motivations to do anything. Sure, you can simulate them but why would you do that?
Also, my own viewpoint is not transmitted to my copy since I am still in my own body. Maybe memories of my body would transport into this phantom but they would not be "real". The phantom would just have an illusion of once being a person (me).
I used to have the same viewpoint as many transhumanists apparently still hold: that mind is not tied into the body but is some sort of "spirit" or "soul" that can be transported into another object, kinda like how a lich has moved it's soul into a phylactery. At some point I realized that this conflicts with my belief that everything is matter and there are no spiritual things in this world, so now I reject mind uploading as a viable concept.
tl;dr: No. Also transhumanism in general is a dangerous idea. I have nothing against cyborg arms or legs however.
>>46476440
>>46476487
"cogito ergo sum"
the rest is not important.
>>46476487
>Well, think of it like body parts separate they're just that, parts, but together they're you, the same principle applies to less physical var
Together they're just my body, they may only reflect my personality but they don't generate it
>>46477551
>I personally believe that I am my body combined with my memories or mind
What part of your body?
Does chopping an arm off make you not you?
What about a part of the brain?
What about a bunch of non-connected brain cells?
>>46477611
The body is another part of the whole, I addressed that.
And without your body you're not really you either, it's a package deal.
>>46477119
>it's the language of the ancients!
>can you read it?
>yes, it says "gary is a fag"
>such wise words, will we ever truely know how they thought
>>46477644
So I am defined by the meat I'm made of?
>>46477622
Don't play games, bud. He means that his self-image is tied to his body. A copy of his mind wouldn't have that image, and thus wouldn't be him.
>>46477119
Imagine we aren't alone in space but all alien races are basically humans just like use because life can only appear on earth-like planets and have similar evolution course
Wouldn't that be disappointing?
>>46477688
It's a factor, but not the entirety.
You're more than the sum of your thoughts.
>>46477716
If you have a brain on a chip, you can make it see whatever the fuck images you want it to see.
>>46477731
No I'm not. I am my thoughts
>>46477716
I don't understand how you can attach your personality to your own body this much. People attach their personality to a shitload of inanimate objects, like kids writing their names on rulers, like autographs or custom car plates or lucky charms. Why can't you attach your personality to another body in similar manner?
>>46477732
You truly think computers are magic, don't you?
>>46477777
nice get
and different guy, but that's entirely true
sensory input isn't magic, we're actually getting close to faking it as is
and if he has his consciousness uploaded to a computer, he can basically make himself experienced whatever the fuck he wants
>>46477716
and what would stop anyone from roughly simulating the body too? you dont feel every detail of your body anyway. and the perception of "your" body can be easily manipulated.
>>46477777
We're assuming a scenario where you can simulate a motherfucking human brain, dude. That's the premise of the discussion. When you can do that, simulating environments and shit like that is child's play.
>>46473402
>Would you partake in it?
If I could afford it, sure.
That's the one thing that is usually ignored in transhumanist/cyberpunk fiction, income disparity.
I honestly doubt that there would be a major movement of people against augs just because "they are abominations" but rather because they just improve the quality of life of the rich at the expense of the poor.
For universal progress of augs to take foot, one must first solve the problems with cost of augs in monetary and environmental sense.
>>46477622
>What part of your body?
Every part, naturally. They all "mine".
>Does chopping an arm off make you not you?
No, but it most certainly makes me less than I was.
>What about a part of the brain?
Well, that would probably make me a drooling moron. As I said, it would not destroy me but it would make me less "me".
>What about a bunch of non-connected brain cells?
I'm sorry, I am not sure what you mean. Isn't this a same as the previous question? Yes, destroying my brain would be extremely painful and would make me less "me".
Of course there is certain changes that the body goes through, and my cells are replaced constantly. There is, however, a certain continuum (Is that a right word?) that is still there. My cells are all related to each other, and my memories and thoughts are following each other like a stream.
If you are going to ask about sleeping and dreaming: I am not brain-dead when I sleep, so I am not a different person when I wake up.
>>46477716
Also this.
>>46477732
But those images are not really real, aren't they?
>>46477771
>I don't understand how you can attach your personality to your own body this much.
Because it is my body? Don't you realize that you are implying that the body is just a shell for a spirit? And by implying that you are no different from some sort of a religious person claiming that after death his or her "spirit" is "free" from his body?
>>46477826
Not him, but that is a ridiculous assumption. The software alone would take multiple lifetimes to program, would be extremely expensive, and could get very close to reaching the inherent limitations of computing technology.
And simulating enviorments is even more complex than simulating the human mind.
t. Anon with a Ph.D in comp sci.
>>46477911
Editing my own post.
>They all "mine".
They are all "mine", I meant to say.
>As I said, it would not destroy me but it would make me less "me".
It would alternate me permanently, I meant to say.
>tfw I used to be like you, dreaming about the future and believing we would see it in our lifetime
>tfw I started studying it (biomechanical engineering and stuff) and realized that we're so far away its not even funny
I hope we see it but its gonna take a long while before even Deus Ex HR tier
>>46477911
they're as real as what you see now.
Meat lies to you constantly. You can hallucinate for no goddamn reason, we see faces where there are none, we itch for no reason, your previous notions change what you see.
Reality's great, a shame we don't experience it objectively.
>>46477911
Most of your argument stems from assumption that perfect transfer of conscience is impossible, which for the sake of argument is not the case
>>46473402
Human body pretty good, and have opportunity to evolve.
>>46477973
Yours doesn't
>>46477954
>Deus Ex HR tier
Which is pretty high tier all things considered, aside from that drug they have to take.
Isn't there a AP mod for the pistol that phases through matter in that game?
>>46477954
Shhh.
Anon, these are a bunch of "Muh singularity" fags, who litteraly belive that in our lifetime we'll make computers that somehow work despite requing computers more powerful that the laws of physics allows, and that said computers will invent all the technology possible and solve ever porblem and turn humans into computers.
Don't spoil it with your actual knowledge about this stuff, just let them dream
