Is there ANY setting which does Tolkien Elves correctly?
I'm so sick of having either stupid edgy elves or humans-but-better who are really good at magic and archery. Or god forbid, both at once. Either be original or make a good copy. There's no need to even have a race called Elves, even less so if you make a shallow plagiarism. This is where the post turns into a rant.
It should be apparent that elves are not a common sight by the time of Lord of the Rings. Why else would be Frodo so surprised to see Elves in the first place, then downright shocked when he finds out they're High Elves? Tolkien's Elves are more like angels than a regular race. There's even the same contrast between Elves and Men that there is between angels and humanity in christianity. Angels are "purer" and more powerful, but spiritually inferior to humans.
Elves don't have an afterlife. If their body gets destroyed they just get to stay at the Halls of Mandos forever, because their souls are bound to the world, while the souls of Men are only temporary visitors to Arda. As a result they get slowly and irreversibly tired of living, and they'll still keep doing so for as long as the world itself exists. That's why only mortals themselves consider mortality to be a bad thing.
And High Elves, unlike those of many other settings, aren't a separate race of elves. Even Elves and Men are technically the same species. High Elves are the "best" race other than the Ainur because they got to literally live with the gods and eat, drink and breathe the divine long before any of them went east. Any elf born in Middle-Earth is bound to be less powerful than one that has been to the Undying Lands. The whole race is getting collectively weaker until they all finally go West.
>>46344155
As a proposal, if you're planning to include elves as a playable race in your setting and INSIST in calling them elves and vaguely keeping the Tolkien vibe, consider making them a sub-race of elf-like humans instead, like the Dúnedain. For gameplay purposes they'll be elves, but won't have the baggage of having to act stereotipically elvish.
![KurtKomoda_sword%20singer[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ZtzkIF0.jpg "KurtKomoda_sword%20singer[1].jpg")
>>46344155 (OP)
Check out Burning Wheel Elves.
>Have a literal Grief stat; due to their immortal lives, their spirits slowly get worn down. As they experience in-game things to angst over, the stat ever so slowly goes up. When it eventually reaches max, the Elf is written out of the game, sailing to the west or simply withering away as his sorrow consumes him.
>Even get ingame methods of managing Grief; Laments, songs that reduce the effects of Grief, are an actual thing. You're literally going to get sessions with game time revolving around Elven characters spending time singing to grieve.
>Unique forms of magic; instead of using conventional fireballs and levitation Wizard-magic, Elves make use of Spellsongs, subtle forms of magic that they alone can use by virtue of their status as Firstborn. Singing to gates they can hear the spirits of the land whisper of what lays beyond them. Or speak verses of prophetic doom to bind victims to inescapable fates. Also, singing lets them induce Wonderment, enchanting and stunting the minds of lesser beings.
>Literally immortal, and on top of that, Elves get more powerful as they age, and age is an actual factor in character creation.
>MFW
>>46344155
>>46344468
>>46344482
The whole setting looks interesting, thanks anon
>>46344155
>Tolkien's Elves are more like angels than a regular race
Use aasimar, then? Or come up with some sort of homebrew. Hell, make "elf" a class, like it's been sometimes. Start as a basic pleb elf, gain experience and take levels to start glorfindelin' it up.
>Elves don't have an afterlife. If their body gets destroyed they just get to stay at the Halls of Mandos forever
Don't they get to take a new body and hang out in Valinor again? Like, I remember something about Feanor specifically NOT doing that, and just sort of willing himself to stay dead forever because he was still salty. Is that not right?
>>46344514
Please tell me you have all the edits.
The one where the flowers are replaced with a knife is my favorite.
>>46344578
>Use aasimar, then?
Not D&D angels, BIBLICAL angels.
>>46344578
My Tolkien lore may be really really rusty since it's been years since I've read anything related to the legendarium
>>46344564
>there's an alternate setting which is Dune treated on the same fashion
Holy shit
This is like a dream
Where has this been all my life
For anyone interested
>>46344155
>That picture.
>Every time.
CHADS AND NORMIES GET OUT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>46344155
>humans-but-better who are really good at magic and archery.
So, Tolkien Elves.
>>46344735
It should be clear from the contents of that post that I'm not a chad and very unlikely to be a normie
If that doesn't convince you, I've read all 6 Dune books several times
>>46344768
Sure, the same way humans are just chimps who are really good at walking and talking
Literally nothing else to it. I mean, it COULD be argued that there could be more nuances, but it's not like there's a text describing why that's wrong just above our posts, so until then Tolkien Elves are just humans-but-better.
>>46344816
Since that just made me very salty I also feel forced to mention that Tolkien's Elves don't even have magical powers of their own strictly speaking, and they definitely don't study magic or anything of the sort. In fact, Galadriel seems to consider the term "magic" a enormous blanket term in LotR.
>‘And you?’ she said, turning to Sam. ‘For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic?’
>>46344816
>it COULD be argued that there could be more nuances
By idiots who don't understand it's true
>>46345073
Luckily, the idiocy of those such as me can not run rampant through the world for as long as there are great sages like you to guard us and the rest of humanity from basic reading comprehension or even bothering to read at all.
I'm half sure you're baiting, but get yourself checked if you're not.
>>46344627
Most elves seem a lot nicer than biblical angels. And better able to interact with other races.
>>46345377
>Most elves seem a lot nicer than biblical angels
They mellow out quite a bit by the third age
>And better able to interact with other races.
One of the chief things Sam notices when first meeting Elves is that, despite being merry and good-natured, they don't care a single bit about what he thinks about them. Over time they've come to respect mortals more, but one of the first names used to describe the newly-awakened Edain was Engwar, which literally means "sickly", and they used to mostly really consider themselves superior to mortals in the First Age.
>>46344155
It's true that it's plagiarism, but that's what most people want from their fantasy role playing game. It's perfectly alright to want elves like you do, I like elves like that meself. But the not! tolkien elves have become a staple in fantasy, I bet most people don't even know where elves came from originally. Tl;dr any elf is fine
>>46345460
Even the asshole elves had an element of pettiness to them that biblical angels don't. And the way angels feel about humans really goes beyond "consider themselves superior".
They're maybe, like, halfway between humans and biblical angels. But there's still a sort of element of groundedness to them. I mean, elves were a race. They had their own cities and craftsmen and so on. Somewhere in Gondolin there was some guy whose job it was to fix the plumbing. Somewhere outside it there was an elf peasant growing the elf wheat that some elf baker made their elf bread with. They have flesh and blood covering their huge glowy souls. The big powerful ones approach angelic stature, but they're exceptional examples of elf-kind.
So, I wouldn't really compare them to biblical angels that closely.
>>46345860
>implying elf Mario wasn't of angelic stature
>>46344155
angels are disembodied entities manifesting divine will and whatnot, so they arent a lot like elves, 'authentic' folk tale elves were more like angels actualy, or nimphs, satires and such, but thats all drawing paralels betveen completely different mythologies
any way, what annoys me personaly in not-tolkein elves is the stereotipical design and characterisation
i dont mind it being stereotiped, its just not how youd imagine a race of immortals
theres way too litle existential and mystical insight, they seem too childish, too human, too concerned with silly and irrelevant details, even kind of frilly and ecentric in silly 'decorative' ways, like the idea elves are big on being well dressd and every thing being elaborately intricately overdesigned and all things having some weird pseudo-organic feel to them
i mean youd expect someone whos been around for thousands of human generations to function on some 'other' level, and in terms of everiday mundane crap to be pragmatic, simple, dispassionate, kind of zen, or even bleak, etc...
>>46346168
A interesting detail is that Tolkien elves were on themselves a reaction to contemporary treatment of elves in literature. The rule used to be either the Fair Folk elves you are talking about or cutesy christmas elves, while Tolkien wanted something more like the ones in Nordic mythology who were more like minor gods.
>>46345906
Yes, well, Maureyond and Luingwe ended up having to fight a dragon instead of doing their actual jobs, and never came back from wherever the fuck they ended up, and those who took their place just had to be content wading through elf sewage, didn't they?
>>46345460
>they don't care a single bit about what he thinks about them
well, lets say sam lives to a good old age of 120
not only does he change during that whole time, but will simply decompose at the end, and by then other iterations of sam will appear, and go trough same
all that is a fleeting moment to a immortal, its to short to bother noticing or giving consideration to the creature as a individual person, unles it becomes momentaly necesary for some reason
>>46346285
>all that is a fleeting moment to a immortal, its to short to bother noticing or giving consideration to the creature as a individual person, unles it becomes momentaly necesary for some reason
I've always though this sort of attitude is bullshit. I'll live about 60 to 90 years if I'm lucky, but I still manage to give a basic fuck about strangers that I know I'll only interact with for a short time today and then never again. It's like the bloody "mayfly romance" nonsense. People don't generally die at the exact same time anyway, everyone has to experience the death of loved ones at some point in their life whether it's short or long, will knowing you'll die in a few years yourself really make you feel better?
They may be immortals but they're living in a world of mortal things. If they don't care about things that'll be gone in a few years, how do they manage to care about anything? Why build a house if the weather will wear it down? Why wear clothes if they're just going to rot off your body? Even if they have other immortals to care about, you can't spend all day doing stuff with them. And what'll you fill the rest of your endless time with if you allegedly can't give a shit about it?
There might not be that much gap in perspective between how long it takes you to carry a friendship with a mortal through to its end and how long it takes you to sing a song through to the end, but you could still care to do both of them right and make them beautiful while they're happening.
>>46346222
I would play the fuck out of a Silmarillion-themed Mario game.
>>46344771
No, anon, it was a joke.
I was calling the laughing elf a chad and a normie, and I was telling him to get out because I felt bad for the--
Damn, son. How are you so bad at having a sense of humor?
>>46346168
>i mean youd expect someone whos been around for thousands of human generations to function on some 'other' level
This. They must operate in an completely different psychological way to endure the huge lifespan they are normally associated with. Just being a bit pissy and tired after thousand years is not enough.
>>46346459
>They may be immortals but they're living in a world of mortal things. If they don't care about things that'll be gone in a few years, how do they manage to care about anything? Why build a house if the weather will wear it down? Why wear clothes if they're just going to rot off your body? Even if they have other immortals to care about, you can't spend all day doing stuff with them. And what'll you fill the rest of your endless time with if you allegedly can't about it?
this is why them living in trees makes sense, if lorien or whatever that place is called is actualy a selfsustaining bio-engeneered mega-habitat, it follows the logic that manipulating living structures gives longer lasting and more sustainable results than building crude structures, as a tree can exist for thousands of years, or longer if messed with in some way, while a building would need maintaining of this sort or that, but also that things that reproduce and regenerate actualy 'last longer', the way a species of animal might last millions of years even if the individual organism lives for a decade
wearing clothes just makes sense, just like using weapons or pots or furniture, but then it would all either be made out of materials that give it a unlimited useful lifespan, like say a magic sword, or just simple, utilitarian mass produced stuff that gets churned out like toilet paper
the idea that they would necesarily have a problem with what to do with all that endless time kind of points at what is wrong with the image of not-tolkein elves
maybe they would percieve and experience time differently, maybe to such a creature each moment would be filled with eternities and the whole eternity seem like a moment, maybe they could develop focus and patience till they are capable of doing things that seem godlike to mortals, maybe they would only then actualy 'see' and so actualy 'give a shit'... i mean just apply basic mystic/occult/esoteric logic
>>46344482
Sounds pretty fucking neato anon. Are the other races cool?
>>46346755
>>46346787
An idea I saw thrown about on the oots forums (boo hiss yes I know) was that elves are only partially awake most of the time, they spend much of their time in a dreamlike half awak time where their bodies run on subconscious autopilot, like when you drive a car you do all these things without thinking.
>>46346222
Dam son, im stealing this for my NPC list.
>>46346811
more likely thats how elves would see other races, or, that all humanoids run on autopilot most of the time, just that elves have enough time to grow out of it, or learn to switch it on and off in various aspects of functioning
or that as elves function on that 'some other level' they percieve mental functioning as just as organicaly constrained and 'automatic' as any other bodily function, in the sense that how they experience their 'being on autopilot' means they are not on autopilot
realy this all sounds a lot like a trope from some gurdjieff inspired setting
>>46346794
Not him but:
Dwarves have a couple things which make them interesting, one is equipment, different races purchase their starting equipment from different lists and dwarven armour is the only item which the rulebook advises GMs to ban since it renders early combats largely one-sided, the rest of their equipment is also generally better. Their crafting skills also count as magical abilities much like elven songs do. They also get a Greed stat, goes up whenever they take more than they need, they can use it do gain bonuses on rolls to obtain things which they want but when it reaches 10 they're written out of the game by sealing themselves away in their mountain hold with all their treasure.
Orcs are a personal favourite. The older your orc character is the more chance they have of being maimed or injured in some way. They also have certain skills which count as magical (torture for one example). Orc magic is all about twisting the mind and/or body of the target (but if you fail then you're affected instead). Orcs also have a Hate stat, gives them certain bonuses, increases when they suffer, if it reaches 10 they go on a rampage and destroy themselves. Also bears mentioning is there's an orc trait which lets them give allies a re-roll by whipping them.
>>46346222
This makes me irrationally happy.
>>46344155
Kill that picture with fire.
>>46344155
What you are describing ARE Tolkien Elves exactly. So... I don't get what you are expecting. A setting that "does Tolkien Elves correctly" would have them as edgy human-but-betters who are really good at magic and archery, because that is exactly what Tolkien Elves are.
>>46344155
Is it cheating to say MERP, LOR, and TOR do it properly?
It was never a problem before that elves were human-like but not human, more like a kind of demigod.
>>46346222
>Maureyond and Luingwe
You rule you magnificent motherfucker.
>>46344155
Dragonlance Elves
>>46344155
I've always taken my inspiration for Elves from the Melnibioneans and Vadagh from Moorcock's books.
>>46344155
Realistically, its hard to do Tolkien Elves properly in a TTRPG. You'll always have people wanting to play them and if they are actually like LotR elves then you've basically abandoned balance.
I mean, if your options are human, dwarf or Literally Immortal Demigod, how are you going to balance this shit?
>>46350866
Burning wheel probably gets closest and what you're saying is the case there, character power in BW is more or less.
Elves>>Dwarves>Humans>>>Orcs
>>46344482
the idea is good
the problem is that it means that something that your human characters can go trough without much effort will cause an elf to become an angsty shithead and start singing for 2 hours again
>>46344514
>>46344621
seconded
>>46344155
Are you fucking stupid or did you really just misread the entirety of the Silmarillion?
