Impassively and objectively; is humanity better off closer to the extremes of the Emperor's vision, the balance of Magnus' or the chaos deep end of Lorgar's?
Talking separately in individual terms, and in terms of a collective whole. Which of the three is:
1) Better off facing the myriad threats of the galaxy's dark?
2) Which one is closer to a perfect meritocracy where the best are functionally immortal and consistently and reliably powerful?
I read of Magnus' coven being able to revive dead sorcerers and removing cancers with ease, but I do not see the same being done on Sicarus, so was Lorgar wrong in his quest for unification when man can simply use the warp like it was used on Tizca? The closest Lorgar's bunch come to feats similar in scope is Erebus' and Kor Phaeron's biomancy in regards to themselves, but two out of a whole legion seems rather lacking in quality for all that the novel Aurelian laid out (half lies or not).
Would I be correct in assuming that against specific threats, Magnus' empire would crumble to something like the Tyranids, while Lorgar's would be cut off and shattered by the warp blank shenanigans of the Necrons? Is the Emperor's vision truly the best fit for mankind concerning all factors, is Ultramar really the highest example humanity can achieve without risking having its support torn out from underneath itself when either its psychic might or its harmony with the warp is taken away by biological/technological feats?
Who had the better vision for the future of humanity, the Emperor, Magnus or Lorgar? If the latter two, why are they not doing more to pursue it in the 40th millennium? Is biomancy every man's dream, or do the machinations of the Dark Age such as cybernetic resurrection come out as simply more preferable? Or is union with a warp entity result in true paradise? Why didn't lorgar, or even erebus or kor phaeron, become twin flames themselves?
Does the Mechanicum/Dark Mechanicum quietly take the prize?
>>46370558
The Emperor's vision has long, long failed. Once he's out of the way, it's not going to fall to one leader. I see Magnus taking over the Astropaths, Navigators, Adeptus Astronomica, etc, and by extension any entities dependent on them.
Lorgar, on the other hand, would be a populist leader of more superstitious groups, possibly even taking over the Ecclesiarchy. Why not? He founded it. He wrote their bible. Hell, he probably still has the original copy. Granted, it's probably been desecrated with the feces and blood of a hundred thousand orphans, but still.
>Does the Mechanicum/Dark Mechanicum quietly take the prize?
I can see Perturabo having a hand in this.
As OP I rather meantwhose vision was better for
1) The Individual
2) As a prosperous Empire
a) The Emperor/Guilliman
b) Magnus (objective utilisation of the warp)
c) Lorgar's (unification with the warp)
d) mechanicum
e) dark mechanicum
>>46370558
>the balance of Magnus
>>46370856
>>46370558
It's not a matter of opinion or "whose vision was right?" The Warp is a fickle thing and the Chaos Gods, if you want to call them that, even more so.
The Emperor knows this, empirically, and straight up told Magnus to stop fucking around with it because there are beings in the Warp far greater than his understanding, at least at that time. Magnus was arrogant and thought he knew best and we all know the result.
As for Lorgar, he was just a pawn. Nothing more.
>>46370929
No warp - Emperor (using navigators and astropaths, phasing them out with a webway)
Balance - Magnus/psykers, using the warp as a resource, much like promethium (that explodes occasionally)
Apotheosis - Lorgar, being one with the warp, possibly enuncia, and igniting magnus' promethium and psykers with a warp storm (a la a crunch word bearer's rite of war that instant deaths psykers,)
>>46370950
That's the kind of answer I'm looking for, except the Wolves trashed Prospero up, not its actual mistakes, putting it in the same category as any other psychic civilisation the Imperium stepped on. The question is why Prospero didn't turn into an empire a la Ultramar, and if the answer is manpower, is a legion of mortal guardsmen more preferable to an empire than a thousand astartes psykers?
So are the Gal Vorbak empirically flawed when compared to Astartes/Thousand Sons? In what environment, necron, tyranid, or even general?
>>46371081
The Wolves trashed Prospero after Horus changed Russ' orders. Magnus didn't turn it into an empire because he didn't have the interest to do so, Guilliman did.
Chaos corrupts everything into a twisted mockery of that which it once was. So no, it's not better for humanity, in the long run, to have their souls eaten by the big four for all eternity.
>>46371042
The Emperor wasn't against the use of psykers. His closest confident, Malcador, was a psyker of immense power. He was against sorcery, i.e. consorting with powers you don't understand. You also have to understand that the vast majority of psykers don't possess control over their powers. This leads to them to be possessed by daemons or infected by psychic abominations like Enslavers. Those who will never be safe are the ones put down or fed to the Emperor.
>>46371248
Why doesn't the Emperor have an interest of turning humanity into a psychic empire? It's vulnerability to chaos? Or is it because he is already himself powerful and it is better for the collective whole to keep the imperium as it is. If we are talking for the collective whole, would an empire like Prospero be attractive, or is it the inevitable destiny for psykers to monumentally cock up, like the eldar or Magnus or Ahriman.
Would the gal vorbak have their souls devoured? I know the masses are lies to by the apostles, but how high up the ladder of word bearers must you go up before you actually gain what the promise? Are Erebus and kor phaeron the only ones, and why didn't they become like the gal vorbak?
>>46371335
The Emperor was cautious and Magnus wasn't. The Emperor knew from experience, namely witnessing the Long Night, that most emerging psykers have zero control and are dangerous. Thus, it's better to suppress psykers, allow the useful ones to live, and slowly guide humanity towards its psychic dawn.
>>46370558
The Emperor's idea was ultimately doomed by his hubris and xenophobia, but it was better than Magnus or Lorgar's 'plans'.
The barbarity he applied to uniting mankind and waging war on everything else actively fed Chaos, creating an environment of self-perpetuated suffering that did nothing but not only strengthen the power of Chaos, but also made humans more vulnerable to its predations. Jimmy No Rights slaving away on some horrible Hive World for eighteen hours a day while pitiless nobles trample all over his fingers sees no functional difference between serving the Emperor and serving Chaos, except that under Chaos he may actually have a shot at advancing his station. Worse, under the Emperor, Jimmy doesn't know the dangers of Chaos, how to recognize them, and how badly they can dick him over.
Magnus and Lorgar were both idiots, putting their faith in the machinations of fickle gods. Their plans are totally compromised from the start.
The Emperor's desire to wean humanity off Warp dependence and guide it into a place where it could control its burgeoning psychic powers was a good one. It was ruined by how much of an arrogant xenophobic prick the Emperor himself was. His belief that nobody should have faith in anything but him resulted in even his greatest generals being unsuited for the seductive influence of Chaos. His pointless wars against even benign xenos wasted resources and only entrenched the position of the Chaos Gods in realspace. He reeeeee'd hard whenever he saw humans doing fine without him and it's mostly for this reason that many advanced societies with knowledge of Chaos were drowned under the sheer size of the Imperium and wiped out.
The Emperor's basic plan was fine. The problem was that he believed his own hype and it made him do stupid stuff.
>>46371042
>No warp - Emperor
Hahahahahahaha.
The Emperor's entire scheme is furthering the psychic evolution of humanity.
>>46372750
>The problem was that he believed his own hype
The hype is real. Without the Emperor every human would become a gateway for Chaos.
>>46372840
Shut up, Carnac.
>>46372860
Is Carnac the only one allowed to talk about actual canon now?
>>46372927
>imperial propaganda
>canon
kek
carnac pls.
>>46372860
>Carnac actually saying something non-retarded/biased against the Imperium
>>46372840
The hype is partially real.
He had a good basic idea for saving mankind. However, he was also SUPREMELY arrogant, which is the biggest reason for his failure to notice Chaos taking root in his sons and ultimately the primary cause for his failure. He believed that aliens were bad primarily because they weren't kinda like him, and he's the best, everything else was just an excuse. He hated stuff like the Interex not because it was bad that they knew about Chaos, but because they were doing well without him, and the idea of this made him mad.
He knew what had to be done. His arrogance just made him add a bunch of superfluous conditions to this plan that were there primarily to appease his massive ego.
>>46373043
You haven't kept up with your Carnacposting, I see.
Carnac's primary goal is to bash Eldar and Eldar players. How he does this doesn't really matter.
>>46370558
> the balance of Magnus'
You fucking wot mate? You mean using Demons and sorcery and getting ducked by Chaos because you just HAVE to show off how super special you are and how you totally have everything under control?
>>46373099
Pretty sure it's about Chaos wanking.
