Would 3.PF spellcasting be fixable by making spells cost XP to cast? Maybe 10 XP per spell level squared?
>>46364458
Too confusing; you'd run the risk of encountering scenarios of having to "level down" during a fight which, as well as being tactically undesirable, is also a great way to bog down play into an unending quagmire: "sorry guys Jimmy has to recalculate his HP, alter his saves, change his skill points and work out how many spell slots he has now. Oh, looks like he might lose a feat too!".
I would suggest a way to make spells "harder" would be to get rid of anything like Eschew Materials or at the very least generally make metamagic far more difficult to get a hold of, at least until much higher levels.
>>46364458
Just have casters get incredibly bad luck. I don't mean reduce their saves, I mean bad fucking luck.
Cast a lot of spells? Cool, you're now a glowing beacon to everything in the other planes. They'll use you as a doorway to get here and fuck shit up.
Just make people think twice about casting.
>>46364549
I'd ban the following:
All Conjuration (teleportation) spells
All Transmutation (polymorph) spells
All Cleric spells with a target of Personal (you)
All Summon Monster/Nature's Ally spells
>>46364615
So, every cast has Perils of the Warp?
to make everything explicit for the purpose of discussion, what is wrong with PF spellcasting
>>46364615
Concentration check (DC 15 plus twice spell level) or you get PERILS OF THE WARP
>>46364666
There's no cost or risk involved, which makes it too easy to use it for every damn thing you come across.
>>46364630
I think getting rid of the Cleric's ability to target themselves is a pretty interesting idea mechanically - it does reinforce their archtype of party healer/buffer, but I don't know how you'd be able to properly justify it without totally relegating them to rearguard casters and your stereotypical pansy whitemage.
How about this: cleric spells CAN target themselves, but are MORE EFFECTIVE when targetting another person. For instance, a spell that would heal another party member 2d6 heals the cleric just 1d6; a buff that gives +4 STR gives +2 etc. It encourages social play, party support etc without totally turning clerics into glass cannons.
>>46364750
I just meant getting rid of all spells that they can ONLY use on themselves, but your idea is cool too.
How about a spellcasting check when you cast a spell, DC depending on level. If you fail, you lose the spellpoints that the spell cost.
- No extra slots from high spell levels
- You can only have one duration spell going at a time, if you cast another the first one ends. If you take damage while one is going you need to make a concentration check with a DC equal to the damage taken or it ends early.
- Spells have a set DC for the caster instead of one based on spell level (something 10 + 1/2 caster level + casting stat).
>>46364458
Making spells more costly/dangerous to cast would just encourage greater specialization in more powerful and broken spells. The big problem with spellcasting (well, one of them) is that there is never a time when you don't want to not be spellcasting. Standing behind front lines? Cast a spell. Standing next to an enemy? Cast a spell. Someone delaying specifically to attack you if you cast a spell? Five foot step and cast a spell.
Everyone else needs to take movement, positioning, and enemies into account. Wizards just need to roll an auto-succeed Concentration check and they're fine.
>>46364750
Interesting idea, but it sounds like it would just encourage more people playing Clerics, not less. After all, if I can cast Righteous Might on another person at full strength, then I'd want another Cleric next to me (to cast it on me as well) when on the front lines, rather than a Fighter with me.
>>46364458
More bookkeeping is the last fucking thing 3.5 needs.
>>46367081
>The big problem with spellcasting (well, one of them) is that there is never a time when you don't want to not be spellcasting.
So do we need to severely cut back on spells per day? Like keeping it somewhere around five to ten maximum, no matter what?
I think one of biggest reasons why people think wizards are OP is that they never have to be in more than three encounters before resting
In other words DMs suck balls
>>46367240
There are a lot of ways to go about it. The idea of giving spellcasters a reusable (but weak) spell option is one that I like, since it means they can do something "Wizardly" beyond firing a crossbow bolt yet keep their big spells in reserve. You find the Wizard less inclined to screw up the battlefield when they can rely on a simple, weak damage spell. I think Pathfinder did something like that.
Do that and you can cut back on the spells per day without too much fuss.
Making it dangerous to be attacked and be standing in threatened areas is important, too. Giving Fighters/etc some method of following 5ft-steppers would both prevent them from being ignored and stop mages from just stepping out of range. Also, removing defensive casting would mean that spellcasters would need to be far more aware of their positioning. The tricky part with THAT is that it hurts Cleric healing far more - which really hurts the ability of frontline Fighters survive more than anything.
>>46367287
Casters are also excellent at controlling how much time is spent doing encounters. Being able to create extradimensional spaces to sleep in is powerful. Hell, being able to teleport the party back to town when they're running out of abilities is powerful. It's hard to force a Wizard to adventure more than he wants to.
They're not considered powerful just because they have big flashy blasty spells. Casters have a fuckton of control with regards to how the party deals with adventuring before and after encounters as well. They like things like reshaping solid walls, flying over obstacles, and generally ignoring anything that might approach a "gauntlet" that might deplete their resources.
If you're really going at it to fuck with you Wizard? Yeah, you probably could shut him down. You're the DM after all. But it requires a lot more work than just beating up on a non-caster until their HP gets low and they need to spend money or ask a caster to get it back.
Nobody's ever argued that casters in 3.5/PF are invincible. Just that they're a whole hell of a lot closer to it than non-casters.
>>46364458
3.PF casting is a mess and fucking around with XP would only make it worse. A good starting place is 5e style fixing:
You can only concentrate on one spell at a time, you get fewer spell slots, and the spells are nerfed.
Why not make actual schools useful instead of you gain +1 whatever for being X school because everyone is going to dump the most useless school of magic anyways.
Basically, rather then cut people off from certain spells things like metamagic and moving spells into higher slots only work with your school spells, so if you're a necromancer only your necromancy spells can be augmented by meta magic and can be assigned to higher slots then they currently are
Maybe even go as far as restricting certain types of meta magic to certain types of spells so they can't be universally applied. Like if I find a meta magic rod maybe it was designed to only work with a certain spell and not others
Of course the right way would be to completely re-write some of the most offending spells into something that won't break the game six times over by clever or accidental use.
There is nothing wrong with 3.5 casting. It's everything else there's a problem with. Get out of here with your feminist, "You should be brought down to my level" shit logic.
It's not casting that needs to be nerfed, it's other forms of combat that need to be improved. Which is taken care of if you supplement the game with Tome of Battle.
>>46367524
I'd agree with you were it not for the fact that there are people in this world who honestly believe that monk is too stronk
How about if instead of trying to make magic suck, you made other classes interesting in their own ways?
What if your barbarian is so stronk he can juggernaut through magical barriers and overcome magical restraints as easily as physical ones? What if he's so roided out that the Finger of Death only pisses him off more?
What if your paladin is so fucking holy and pure, any negative effect from an evil-doer is reduced automatically, or just flat-out negated? What if a sneak attack from an evil assassin deals normal damage instead, or regenerates because god?
What if your rogue can skill so hard that he can ignore some of the level-based caps on skills that everyone else has to deal with? What if there were some skills, or some more applications for skills, that literally other classes have never even heard of, let alone have access to?
What if monks weren't retarded garbage?
What if your fighter is so good with his weapon(s) that at some point he doesn't have to roll to see if he deals damage? What if auto-hits some times, or deals damage on a miss, or gets a reroll if his die is less than a certain minimum. What if the inverse applies to hitting him while he's in armor?
>>46367586
>Que the GM spasming into an autistic fit as foam and blood come out of his mouth as he repeats the words weeaboo over and over and over again
>>46364458
>Would 3.PF spellcasting be fixable by making spells cost XP to cast? Maybe 10 XP per spell level squared?
There is no reason to run 3PF in 2016 that isn't due to shit players or a shittier GM.
>>46367524
>There is nothing wrong with 3.5 casting.
There is everything wrong with auto-win casting.
>>46364458
Nah, you should do this instead
>be level 1 cleric
>heard about new spellcasting rules
>trying to never ever cast a spell because 2scary now, just hitting things with a stick and using skills
>but now paladin is hurt badly
>no more healer's kit's left, he's bleeding out at -3hp
>ahhh blyat
>"I... I cast Cure Light Wounds!"
>DM starts rolling lots and lots of dice
>DM: "Okay, as you attempt to cast the spell, the magical energy overloads and your brain detonates. You die instantly, everyone else gets a reflex save for half damage from skull fragments. Also your soul is sucked directly into Abaddon despite you being LG."
>This is the future we chose
>>46364549
>Too confusing; you'd run the risk of encountering scenarios of having to "level down" during a fight which, as well as being tactically undesirable, is also a great way to bog down play into an unending quagmire: "sorry guys Jimmy has to recalculate his HP, alter his saves, change his skill points and work out how many spell slots he has now. Oh, looks like he might lose a feat too!".
I think 3.PF is garbage and just came in here for OP's pic, but couldn't you just cap their XP expenditure when they flatline at the bottom of their current level and say they can't cast any more spells until they gain some more XP? That way they wouldn't have to worry about recalculating, and they would have to choose between "cast spell now" and "advance levels later".
Why do people who don't even understand WHY Spellcasters are fucked up try to fix spellcasters? Fuck Spellcasters aren't even the real issue, it's the fact that NOT being a spell-caster means you can't influence anything in any meaningful way. Making spell-casters not want to cast spells just ensures EVERYONE doesn't have fun.
>>46367586
They did. It's called Psionics+Tome of Battle/Path of War.
>>46364458
Here's how you fix 3.5/PF spellcasters: You play ANY other game.
These "solutions" are fucking stupid. You're not fixing anything, you're gimping shit to near uselessness or not even touching the core problem. You don't understand what's wrong in the first place, so how can you hope to fix it?
>>46371037
>NOT being a spell-caster means you can't influence anything in any meaningful way.
Please explain this, because I don't understand. What is it about the 3.PF system that makes nonmagical stuff impossible to succeed at? I'm not seeing any problem with characters doing ordinary things. Where is the problem?
>>46371503
It's not that it's impossible to succeed. It's the fact that magic makes success so much easier, faster, and cheaper.
>>46371503
>I'm not seeing any problem with characters doing ordinary things.
At lvl1 I also see no problem with a non-magical character ding something ordinary. But at lvl20 that is still all they can do. All the while at lvl20 a wizard gets to create worlds and influence time and space in significant ways.
>>46364458
>Would 3.PF spellcasting be fixable
You already fucked up, son
