alright /tg/
Legged war vehicles, mech(s)(a) if you will, do you like them?
Should settings try to justify them, or should they be pure rule of cool?
Settings have their own narrative genre. If a setting includes mechs, it should have them in a way that fits the genre.
As an example, if I made a setting themed on near future military science fiction, I would restrict mechs to those based on real-world designs. If I made a more fantasy-themed setting, any mechs there would draw inspiration from monsters and mythic heroes.
I dig giant robots, yes.
Gundam level justification is fine for me.
1: There's an easily produced particle that completely blocks all forms of radio and electromagnetic detection, so over-the-horizon attacks are basically impossible without spotters and hard-wired communications in place.
2a: A humanoid body can turn along multiple axis without using reactive fuel while in space by bending and twisting along the joints. This is fairly important as it extends operation time.
2b: A humanoid body is intuitively controllable by a human. You know what a waist can do. You know what your arms can do. You know what your legs can do. The robot is based on those things, so you know instinctively what the robot's waist, arms, and legs can do.
It's not exactly hard science (Since that would take into account good laser communications and optical sensing computers) but it works for what it's trying to do, which is justify giant robots.
>>46219977
>that would take into account good laser communications and optical sensing computers
Let's be fair here, the whole Minovsky Particle explanation was come up with back in 1979.
The first laser data connection in space didn't happen until 2001.
>>46219977
This. I always liked how Gundam did it: visual stylings of the Super Robot genre, but with some actual thought put into things.
And then there's 08th MS Team, which actually threw some semblance of tactics into the mix.
>>46220010
Well, they do actually have point to point laser communication in Gundam, but it's pretty shit compared to what we could actually do with lasers if we needed to.
>>46219977
Don't forget that the particle also blocks radiation 100%, which enables very small nuclear reactors to be placed right next to the pilot with literally 0% chance of leaks or contamination barring massive containment system failures.
>>46220043
Yeah, but it was largely theoretical tech back then.
They took a gamble on how well it would work, and missed the mark.
Still less silly than tech in some of the AUs. Look at After Colony. The ZERO System, a computer program that can literally predict the future, fitting on a floppy.
Trying to justify giant robots only draws attention to how impossible they are.
Just let the cool robot be a cool robot, man.
Y'know the one thing cooler than giant robots?
Giant robots that are also F-14s.
>>46220106
Or X-29s
>>46220031
Its more the illusion of thought, rather than the actuality.
The only reason that mobile suits are viable in Gundam is that, in the Universal Century, battleship targeting computers never developed past the 70s level of technology.
And you know what? Given the time period that the original was made, thats fine. For the One Year War.
The problem is that in the next X decades or hundreds of years, mobile suit technology makes huge leaps forwards to the point of borderline-AI and remote weapons and reality bending space hax... and those same factions still never drop a dime on making a battleship that's not retarded so that enemy mobile suits cease to be a problem at all.
>>46219834
I like them rugged, non-elegant. More bestial than human.
For example, Warhammer dreadnoughts. It`s a legged brick that can wreck a tank with power claw. That works.
About justification. Forgetting about ground pressure thing, legged venicles are much better for rough terrain. Oh, end forgetting about the fact that then it would be a good idea to make 4-6 legs, not 2.
Otherwise - yes, rule of cool. "We want a cool war robot to impress the natives and make the rebels cower in fear. Make it like a Human."
>>46220172
>battleship targeting computers never developed past the 70s level of technology.
Minovsky Particles, idiot.
If you don't actually know Gundam, don't talk as though you do.
>>46219834
If you've ever played Stars Without Numbers the setting justifies Mechs pretty well.
Nuclear weapons and Long range targeting with guided munitions are redundant due to ''Nuke Snuffers'' and ''Quantum ECM''
As such, mechs are used for city assault actions where CAS can't fly through the super high sky scraper cities in most worlds.
>>46220172
Eh.
Mobile Suits just got so sick-nasty that battleship development was rendered pointless.
Like how aircraft carriers and carrier-borne aircraft killed battleships in real life.
The best way to kill that bomber that will assrape your naval group six ways from sunday is with an Interceptor, not a super advanced flak screen.
>>46220344
Right but carriers and aircraft made battleships redundant due to the factuality of horizons existing.
Reality is that a battleship can not detect opponents on the surface past the horizon so aircraft above the horizon could strike opponents over it. It was nothing more than a second stage platform for launching munitions.
>>46219834
From a tonal point of view, only include them if it's a giant mech game. Trying to wedge mechs in around the edges of a narrative just makes it seem forced.
I've always wanted to work on a semi-realistic Mecha setting that combined a few of my favorite justifications for mecha -
>We invented a perfect mind-machine interface that allows intuitive mental control of a vehicle as if it was your own body. The downside is that it has a side effect - mentally "inhabiting" a vehicle for any length of time causes horrible "body dysphoria", where your mind either rejects the vehicle as a "false body", or, if you spend too much time piloting, starts to reject your REAL body as false. Building a vehicle in a shape corresponding to the human body lessens the chances of this dramatically, as the mind easily associates with the human form.
>Mecha are small (think Patlabor size as opposed to Gundam size), lightweight (made mostly of alluminum, titanium, carbon fiber, and other space-age shit), fast, and fragile. As a result they're usually remote-controlled.
>Space combat usually takes place in orbit between ships controlled by special Pilots who basically become their ships and squads of Mechas acting as fighters.
>>46220297
On the other hand, they're also fucking expensive (both in construction and maintenance cost) and they don't work half the time, so people don't really build anything bigger than suit-class stuff anymore.
Which is fine by me, because I'm pretty damn anal-retentive about mechs. Mechs bigger than a Gekko (that stupid mini-Metal Gear with artificial-muscle dinosaur legs and camel noises) might as well be an A) one-of-a-kind superweapons or B) white elephant prototypes.
Mechas didn't become humanoid by choice - in fact, they were human-shaped waaay before the military seriously considered the idea of Mechanic And Mobile Infantry. (MAMI)
Because fiction said they should look like one.
Pop-culture ingrained the idea of heroes made of steel and iron, defending the virtues of freedom and justice.
When the military started the MAMI project, its alien forms were badly received by the public, asking for "relatable" heroes. Animal designs were tried, horses and dogs mailny. But in the end, humanoid was the final choice. Thank Marvel and their famous Iron Man for that.
The MAMI-XI Mk.1, dubbed "The Big Guy" by the press, had incredible effect on its first battlefield, striking fear into the hearts of those who had read superheroes stories, and galvanizing troops rallying behind this new-gen tank.
Each country then entered a new arms race, creating rows and rows of metal giants, each a new effigy, generating rockstar-tier cults and r34.
>>46220280
But that's an excuse, not a reason.
Minovksy Particles might hinder long range combat my making targeting difficult, but its like UC era humanity ran into one problem and then collectively threw up their hands and decided to never, ever try to solve this problem ever again.
Optical targeting doesn't require radio waves to work, and in many cases can be more accurate. We already have optical targeting computers today that can shoot mortal shells out of the sky before they hit the ground. (Thanks, Germany!)
"But anon" I hear you say. "They eventually retconned in that sufficiently high minovsky density can start messing with the path of light at long distances too!"
That's two conditionals you have there: very high density, and long distance. This means that in any battlefield where the interference is low enough, such as small skirmishes, that's not a problem at all. And even in those cases, it just lowers your accuracy until they get closer, which is not any worse than the case they are in already.
And even THAT case can be solved by not having dumbfire weapons. Put an optical targeting array on the front of your missile. There, problem solved. It will be a bit off target, but still going in the right direction, and as it gets closer its ability to target the enemy goes up and up until it has a lock.
Would this be more expensive than a normal missile? Obviously. But it lets you engage the enemy from a much, much further distance, so even if you only carry a few of these into battle their tactical value is well worth the cost.
Setting that aside, none of the above minovksy complaints explain away why Mobile Suits are totally unhittable at close range. Minovksy interference is supposed to be less of an issue the less distance in between you and the target, and yet we frequently have mobile suits that close into goddamn melee range of battleships bristling with guns without being under any threat at all.
>>46219834
It has a number of necessities such as a lack of sufficiently advanced AI, insane power sources, and the ability to ignore the fact that predator drones exist.
>>46219834
My favorite mechs have been insectoid weapons platforms as far as I can tell. I love the way the legs work and seeing it on a massive scale with out having to give a single fuck for square cube laws is always nice.
>>46220696
The ability to not get hit at close ranges is easy. In space, a mobile suit is goddamned tiny. Those giant battleship energy weapons aren't capable of easily tracking something that small at those ranges.
Smaller scale turrets do well enough though, but those aren't notably stronger than MS mounted weapons anyway.
>>46221020
Exactly.
Gundam tells us that humanity has electronic motors capable of full human maneuverability, movement, and automatic balance in a zero-G environment for use as a weapons platform for blowing away heavily armored targets while flying around and taking evasive action from returning fire. But turrets have shit tracking.
The difference between a mobile suit arm holding a gun and a battleship turret is that the latter is 300% less effective because its never allowed to hit anything. The technologies that go into the two of them are functionally identical, the mobile suit arm should just be slower and less powerful in every way due to size and energy available.
>>46221174
The large battleship turrets (As opposed to the small ones that actually do get hits in against mobile suits) are packing weapons that might weigh as much as a mobile suit, and have to have a ton of coolant piping to not melt the entire ship every time it fires.
>>46220390
Battlefield networking, motherfucker. We can guide an AShM over the horizon using datalinks from airborne assets then switch to the missile's on-board guidance systems once it gets in range.
>>46221261
The point is that close in defensive weapons don't actually work. Mobile suits are consistently shown flying around battleships at close ranges when they shouldn't ever be able to get that close to begin with.
The theoretical performance of the defensive armament of ships is irrelevant because they're always shown as being totally ineffective and this inefficacy is a total asspull that enables mobile suits to exist.
>>46220482
Sounds similar to EvEs capsuleers.
>>46221369
Its also pretty ridiculous that, in literally hundreds of years, no one ever manages to come up with a way to see through Minovsky interference that isn't newtypes. Not even, like, a little.
Gundam figured out quantum teleportation, time travel, and AI before they figured out how to deal with shitty radio signal due to radiation.
>>46221577
They're strong enough to block everything up to and including full blown radiation.
Someone with a strong minovsky bubble could walk directly into the heart of chernobyl a month after the accident and walk right back out the other side. They could stand directly in front a naval radar array that can strip the paint from metal and fry a human in seconds with absolutely no ill effects.
Sonar might work, Lidar might work, and that's about it.
>>46220482
Have you read about heavy gear? I really like the Votoms look and how did they explain why they are fighting with mechs instead of hovertanks, aircraft and stuff. Plus the cool functional look. Also they are in my sweet spot of mech heigh, 4-5m tall like normal Knightmare and more or less wanzers.
>>46221673
Minovsky particles are fucking bullshit. They're literally magic made with a machine that do whatever the fuck you want. Wanna make a huge robot fly? No problem, we got the MINOVSKY DRIVE. Wanna stop huge lasers that can fry entire fleets? Here you go, fucking MINOVSKY BEAM SHIELDS.
>Should settings try to justify them, or should they be pure rule of cool?
Trying to justify it simply draws attention to the problems, and generally gives you plenty of opportunity to add even more fuckups to it.
>>46219977
>1: There's an easily produced particle that completely blocks all forms of radio and electromagnetic detection, so over-the-horizon attacks are basically impossible without spotters and hard-wired communications in place.
I prefer the idea (largely unrelated to Gundam) that robotics and weapon technology has advanced to a point that over-the-horizon attacks are only efficient against very large or relatively slow targets. Hypervelocity guns fired from close range or point-to-point laser weaponry are the only way to reliably hit something as fast and maneuverable as a one-man war mech.
>2b: A humanoid body is intuitively controllable by a human. You know what a waist can do. You know what your arms can do. You know what your legs can do. The robot is based on those things, so you know instinctively what the robot's waist, arms, and legs can do.
Anthromorphism evolved for a reason, too. It's among the most energy-efficient configurations for doing what a humanoid can be expected to do.
>>46221796
That said, mech vs mech is usually boring. Human guerrillas vs mech is awesome.
>>46221758
>Minovsky particles are fucking bullshit!
Same said for every somethingjustification particle in every other sci fi setting really
>>46221796
the setting needs to be pretty fucking straight faced in justifying them. they're absolutely outlandish as a concept for most applications.
my taste has moved on to bonified spacecraft.
>>46219834
I fucking loved the HERCs from Starsiege. Those were really fucking dope.
I'm mostly indifferent to other mecha/bipedal warmachines.
>>46221673
Yeah, which is why you go for alternate detection methods. We originally developed radar because we couldn't see the planes coming at night. Because we couldn't depend on light, we went for radar and it turned out radar replaced the need for visual identification almost entirely.
Same principal. Find something that gives away the enemy location that minovsky doesn't impact, like gravity or mass.
>>46219977
Actually in heavy enough densities Minovosky particles can cause a haze. In Zeta Gundam the AEUG uses it to their advantage a couple of times by sending out balloon decoys of mobile suits, the haze provided enough of a blur to confuse spotters about where they had deployed.
>>46221836
>the setting needs to be pretty fucking straight faced in justifying them. they're absolutely outlandish as a concept for most applications.
Yeah. I like them as strike units and elite formation-breakers, rather than an alternative to battleships. More like a 30-foot Navy Seal in an era of plasma cannons and hoverbikes.
MEchs are only justifiable in bipedal form if they literally act as a mega exoskeleton, able to mimic pilot movement well enough to be evasive. Having the ability to control height, hunker down, and superior ability to aim as well as better area navigation would put it ahead of the game.
However, taking a hit is another issue. wheeled vehicles are just better for the actual combat phase right now. Tripping and falling in a mech would have tons of incredibly expensive tech slamming into a rock. A tire is easily replaced. An entire nuclear powered arm, maybe not so much.
>>46222040
Logistics is literally why the Federation won and Zeon lost.
All four models of Feddie suits (Guntank, guncannon, and all three kinds of Gundam) used interchangeable, easily sourced parts.
Meanwhile, the Zeon were wasting all of their resources making one-off prototypes that consistently got wrecked by their more standardized, more numerous enemies.
Definitely rule of cool
I feel like that by the time technology advances enough to make giant mechs that are actually useful, the weapons to use against them would be too strong.
Air superiority and long range firepower. Hell that's the strategy that these fuckers were supposed to use against giant robots until GW went full retard with their last update.
>>46222155
So, in a nutshell, russian tanks vs german tanks?
I should actually get round to watching Gundam at some point, I watched a few episodes as a kid and never really sat down and watched an entire series of it.
>>46220080
>Trying to justify giant robots only draws attention to how impossible they are.
Patlabor played with this in a meta way. Humanoid labors are almost as effective in construction as a giant human would be, but the more efficient ones look less humanoid and more like construction equipment. The military -wants- to apply this technology but it's extremely hampered by non-urban environments, even the later, more insectoid designs have limbs and complicated moving parts that are too vulnerable against even modern anti-vehicle weapons and tactics.
>>46222347
Taken to exaggerated levels.
>>46222347
The 79 series is a genre-defining classic, but the animation and storytelling are pretty dated. Some of the OVAs are good for dipping your toe in to see if you like it, War in the Pocket and The 08th MS Team are reasonably short and only require a cursory knowledge of the Zeon/Federation war that you can get by skimming Wikipedia.
>>46222155
Don't forget the GM, the gold standard for Feddie grunt units. Unless you're counting it as one of the three Gundam types, I assumed you meant the RX-78-1, the main series unit and the Alex from 0080. You're right, though, even their new production models from the end of the series didn't really outperform GMs enough to justify their manufacture.
>>46222482
I was actually just counting the original prototype gundams, the GM, and the G types used in 08th MS Team.
Technically, the G types are just guncannon frames with spare parts from the original prototypes, but they had entire squads of the things, so clearly there was a significant amount of them produced.
Technically, the GM Sniper is a separate model with even better energy weapon control and precision arm and wrist motors, but its really more of a variant than a full blown type on its own.
Man my biggest complaint about Gundam is they never had Newtypes in command of the battleships guns, predicting exactly where to shoot to hit someone before they even know they're being shot at. Make a fucking new type battleship with bit-based psycommu missiles and shit!
The guns could even be detachable with onboard thrust shit to reposition, using the beam rifles cap system to power the big guns, or onboard micro reactors like some of the guns have in Gundam. That way there'd be no 'dead zones' for your cannons and enemies can't try to flank you faster than your guns can traverse. Basically, fuck the mechs, give me psychic battleships.
>>46222570
Newtypes are relatively rare, I don't think anyone consciously began assembling them en masse until the Crossbone era of the UC. One of those Newtype organizations we barely saw (seriously, Crossbone is a bad manga), the other was in a generation ship that was NOPEing out of the solar system to go create a newtype paradise somewhere in space away from the old humanity's conflicts. Even then exactly what newtype powers can do is inconsistent from one portrayal to the next.
>>46219834
>Should settings try to justify them, or should they be pure rule of cool?
Those are not contradictory. All you need is some kind of phelobotinium that makes them practical in a way they can't be in real life.
>>46219834
Only a little justification, no need to write a whole essay on why they exist, just a paragraph or two is fine.
>>46222807
This is quite specifically what you don't need. Because in almost all cases the mcguffinite will have wide reaching applications and would generally benefit conventional vehicles just as much, if not more than giant metal men.
Battletech has just the right amount of justification for me.
Also helps that it's got a load of weirdly hard sci-fi stuff built into it and a fairly consistent style that isn't giant-man-holding-gun for the most part.
Depends on the genre
I prefer rule of cool as i once had a Mutants&Masterminds character who had a super robot
100% rule of cool, 0% weeb shit and 0% explanation is the only valid answer.
Because the reasons are either ultra specific and contrived asspulls or they'd make conventional warfare much better than inventing subpar weapon platforms.
>>46221721
>Knightmare and more or less wanzers.
Well, considering Heavy Gear is VOTOMS with the serial numbers filed off, and that CG's KMFs and Front Mission's Wanzers were both inspired by ATs...
>tying yourself down to just one type of mecha
>not just throwing it all in a blender and drinking the gloriously manly juice that comes out
Y'all mother fuckers need Banpresto.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0TiqIjF-uk
>>46223374
I'd like to think that using something like the Orbital Frames from Zone of the Enders could be justified by the fact that the limbs aren't really functional legs/arms so much as gravitational stabilizers that just happen to be positioned in the same spot as limbs would be on a torso, whilst all the heavy mechanics are loaded into said torso, with a few energy discharge weapons placed on the limbs for optimum range of use. Using them in such a way would allow for some really intense movement and precise controls at high speeds. The problem here is that the limbs are not actual *limbs* so much as featurless appendages and if they didn't have a thruster holding the frame aloft, the "legs" wouldn't be able to support the weight of the unit. At that point is it really a humanoid mecha, or just a mecha that happens to be vaguely human-shaped due to design?
>>46223235
Fucking Getter Robo Armageddon is the hypest shit.
>>46223214
Too bad 90% of the mechs are dopey and look stupid.
>>46219834
It's completely impossible to justify them in any way, and trying makes you look foolish. Just put them in and don't bother to explain: it's the worldbuilding equivalent of that guy on a sitcom trying to talk his way out of something but just digging himself deeper.
And I say this as someone who loves Gurren Lagann and Full Metal Panic.
Most Ayyliums are of the giant variety.
We need giant robots to interact with them.
>>46223841
>and Full Metal Panic
New season soon, fellow Gernsback.
>>46220390
>Reality is that a battleship can not detect opponents on the surface past the horizon so aircraft above the horizon could strike opponents over it.
What?
>>46219960
You dig giant robots.
>>46223730
Man, I love Zone of the Enders. I love the super fast, powerful prototype mecha. I've always wanted to run a tabletop game in the ZoE setting but never knew what system would work for Orbital Frames.
>>46223899
Tessafags about to get BTFO so hard. I'm popping popcorn already.
>>46224078
I'm more excited to watch casuals feel the feels wen Kurtz "dies".
![4352328-4402077159-Megas[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/iwXnAvd.jpg "4352328-4402077159-Megas[1].jpg")
Pic related, is only acceptable mecha.
>>46224121
Or whenChidori goes rouge
>>46223919
Non-satellite guided weaponry is restricted to the range of its guidance system. For modern weaponry that's the radar horizon, which is the point where the curvature of the Earth prevents radar signals from reaching objects. An aircraft, by virtue being at a high altitude and capable of traveling large distances very quickly, has a far larger and mobile radar horizon allowing the to detect and target enemy units at much greater distances.
>>46223919
The higher up you are the further you can see.
>>46219834
I love mechs, but I'm annoyingly picky in that I want then to be humanoid but still clearly robotic with exposed wires and bolts. Pacific Rim did a damn good job of this, for example.
<spoiler>Gurren Lagann is forever my favorite weeb mech thing, though. </spoiler>
>>46224457
What is network centric warfare
>>46224780
Already mentioned earlier in the thread, but airborne weaponry has the added benefit of the range of the aircraft on top of the range of the missile.
>>46224873
No fucking way!
>>46219834
If you want to be "realistic" then giant robots are either going to be like VOTOMs or Metal Gear imo.
But if you want a game about like just giant robots in general? Then fuck all realism, pierce the heavens, be the ginga bishounen, whatever the fuck you want bro. Rule of Cool is fine, just make sure you have friends that acknowledge you don't need logic in a fucking dice game.
>>46225433
>ginga bishounen
Man that show fucked up by having every fight for the entire first half of the series be exactly the same. Everyone dropped it before anything interesting happened.
>>46224004
Anubis theme, best theme, or best theme?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3mtH7wfNN8
>>46220260
I've always favored walker patterns like Rex and the Gekkos, even if they have arms they'd be in an animal like position
>>46225715
What do you think of Sahalenthropus?
>>46223926
chicks dig giant robots
>>46221836
Bona fide, unless they are skeleton spaceships.
>>46221988
>Yeah. I like them as strike units and elite formation-breakers, rather than an alternative to battleships. More like a 30-foot Navy Seal in an era of plasma cannons and hoverbikes.
Sorta the same deal I came up with for a Gundam Setting; A ban on Projectile Weaponry pointed anywhere in the vicinity of a Space Colony (because you don't want to be putting holes in the several trillion dollar habitat your fighting over) forced Powered Armor Soldiers to revert to Close-Quarters combat.
So, as a means of forcing compliance with a Colonies' local populous, said Power Armors got bigger and bigger...
>>46222482
>The 79 series is a genre-defining classic, but the animation and storytelling are pretty dated. Some of the OVAs are good for dipping your toe in to see if you like it, War in the Pocket and The 08th MS Team are reasonably short and only require a cursory knowledge of the Zeon/Federation war that you can get by skimming Wikipedia.
Yeah, I never could sit through the original MSG...
>Don't forget the GM, the gold standard for Feddie grunt units
Forever GM...
>>46223235
Believe in the Getter...
>>46223570
Oh Hero of Steel, you who do not know the meaning of surrender,
Keep being under the command of your burning soul!
>>46224160
But it's ALL the Mecha, and a Space Battleship or two...
>>46221826
Element Zero is pretty good.
>>46226653
>Yeah, I never could sit through the original MSG...
If your local library has it, Gundam: The Origin is a fantastic manga version of the story. Or you could just power through the compilation movies, they're surprisingly decent.
>>46219834
Yes.
It's always rule of cool. Every justification ever come up with for giant robots implicitly says "this doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but accept this technobabble and move on because robots are cool."
>>46226653
>Forever GM...
Personaly more a fan of the Powered GM.
I like the contrast between the bulky appearance and the high mobility of the unit.
>>46224078
I'm fine with that. I love Tessa, but I love her because she plays dirty in the Sosukebowl.
>>46226976
Still loses.
I mean honestly, she was never even a serious competitor in the Sosukebowl.
Military organizations have fraternization regs, and Sosuke is too professional to break them.
>>46219834
> Legged war vehicles, mech(s)(a) if you will, do you like them?
Yes, and no. I really like Heavy Gear's approach, the small mechs being a step between Tanks and Infantry.
> Should settings try to justify them, or should they be pure rule of cool?
Yes. And avoid indestructibility.
>>46227075
If she just made it an order to fuck her brains out, would he do it?
>>46227473
No, because that's an unlawful order.
Isn't she 14-15, illegal
anybody like space battleship Yamato designs and believe it should have giant robots
>>46227473
He would sperg out and run away sweating profusely most likely. Remember, Sousuke is King Autist.
>>46219960
Good taste megas anon.
>>46228305
No, he's king PTSD and lack of socialization.
Best Gundam comin through
>>46223834
This, other than not wanting to invest in another expensive table top, their mechs look so stupidly unbelievable that what ever scientific credence they might have they never evolved artistically to suit.
>>46228686
Hell yeah motherfucker.
>>46228686
But that's definitely not a picture of Tequila Gundam.
In Zoids, zoids are considered feasible and used for military and civilian purposes because they're technically part of a self-sustaining ecology.
Zoids reproduce.
Zoids are technically naturally occuring giant robots, so why the fuck should we design a tank when they are literally breeding out in the wilderness?
>>46231193
>Zoids reproduce
How?
>>46231311
Similarly to Cybertronians, I'd wager.
>>46231311
I'm not wholly certain, but at least one chapter of the manga refers to the nesting grounds of bird-zoids, who lay "zoid cores", which gather energy from the solar-panel "feathers" that the "parents" drop.
Conversely, the backstory of Zoids boils down to "So there were these guys who were so scientifically advanced that they looked at the natural world with all its animals, got drunk, and decided they could do better."
>>46231311
There's a reason Van found Zeke and Fiona together, mate...
>>46231387
...huh.
>>46231387
There was also that valley that was notorious for the fierce and dangerous wild zoids that were there.
Like, instead of being skittish animal-bots that you can tame, the varieties in the valley were aggressive and very capable of using the weapons mounted on them.
>>46231476
There was Zoids Legacy, where 70% of the zoids in the game were wild. Apparently, they will grow rudimentary computer cores inside the cockpit if not kept in good maintenance
>>46231387
What about their guns? How do they reload?
>>46231547
iirc, most wild ones either have energy weapons that don't need to be reloaded or only use melee weapons until someone comes along and tames them.
The white liger only had its energy claw until whatshisface stole that chin mounted gun from that other guy's zoid.
>>46231547
Humans make guns all the fucking time, and the wild zoids tend not to have weapons that utilize physical ammo.
Tend to.
My theory is that the Zoid Core of each zoid is actually a programmed nest of nanites, that realized the efficiency of just building simpler machines out of Planet Zi's abundant mineral resources.
>>46231581
And they come with cockpits and everything? What energy sources keep them going? Are those energy sources used in other portions of the world?
>>46231672
Yes. Zoids were designed by the Ancient Zoidians (The creator saved all his talent for naming people for Chaotic Century characters).
Their powersource is actually a hugely important plot device. The Ancient Zoidians were basically buttraping science, because the power source for Zoids is a singular wireless power station called Zoid Eve.
>>46223834
>>46228841
I'll give you the old rulebook designs, but I love me some mechwarrior.
>>46219834
>Do you like them?
Fuck yes I do
>Should settings try to justify them
No but its always a huge plus. Even if its stupid nonsense it just adds value.
Should they be pure rule of cool?
Yes. If you look at mechs to closely they kinda fall apart. It should always come with a dab of cool for cools sake.
I love only one Mech, And it is best mech. Now let me play you the sound of my people.
>ZZZZAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKKUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
However I do believe Rule of Cool is only able to work well in shows/movies/animes, I prefer justified in anything else.
>>46220106
its also super realistic that the best vehicles are unmanned fighters.
>>46223834
They tend to be really hit-or-miss for me. I either adore the design, or hate the shit out of it. And half the time it depends on the artist as well.
Personally though, noting really beats pic related; at least in a general sense. I'm a huge fan of mechs that are effectively advanced aerospace fighters that went "well we have the air, we have the void...apply a little 'fuck you,' and we can have the ground as well..."
The few waverunner mobile suits there are, variable fighters from Macross/Robotech, and a few standalone examples like the Strike Fighter or the new transforming Arwing are pretty much the creme of the crop of what I would choose to pilot in a space opera.
>>46226710
Origin is a complete different story to the original gundam in many level and should not be treated as the same, says the writer himself (who was the art/character design for the original gundam)
The movies for original were shorten , more realistic version of the TV serie.
The more ridiculous toy mechs like G-falcon are removed and the graphic is dramaticly improved with the increased budget.
Gundam was genre definitive not only for its own quality, but the fact that they made something not just for kids in a age where cartoons are designed to sell toys to kids, yet they still managed to satisfy their sponsor.
>>46226653
>A ban on Projectile Weaponry pointed anywhere in the vicinity of a Space Colony
If you watch enough Gundam you realize there are a lot of unspoken rules about space combat and colonies. Things like sticking to small arms fire and melee in colonies, keeping fights away from civilian colonies as a whole (Which still happens all the time) and how if a colony starts leaking a fight all but ends then and there (assuming some "muh mission/VIP" newtype hasn't lost their mind) . In the UC universe mobile suits come equipped with some special webbing they can shoot into the hole to minimize loss of air pressure.
Nobody notices because just like everywhere else, the battles that go full retard and throw out a lot of the rules are the most glorified and documented.
>>46219834
Mechs should be presented without justification. If the reader has time to question the giant robots, you're not telling the story well enough.
>>46230996
You mean Scud Gundam.
>>46232390
Something of a generalization, but I can understand what you mean.
Honestly, the guys I play with are the kind who would ask questions no matter how interested they were in the plot, but if I even so much as said "I wanted giant robots," they'd be cool with that and let it go.
>>46219834
I don't bother justifying it too much with science except to say that the controls, weapons, and armor all just got more dangerous and allowed for robots. I don't want my settings not to get too bogged down in the science so we can enjoy the character drama, action, and politics.
One major aspect of my world is that each mech is typically made to thrive in an environment, and they don't do too well when taken out of those battlefields.
In my setting, humanoid mechs are justifiable in space because of increased maneuverability and versatility. Thrusters are place on legs, arms, portions of the torso, etc. This lets them be very, very maneuverable. They also have a few wing-like extensions and have a lot of weapons to choose from, like the Stark Jegan or GM space type.
There are also dedicated ground-fighting mechs that are about as heavily armored as a tank because tech advances, and they're more survivable. Sort of like wanzers--some are animal-shaped like zoids--they're big and meaty. They pack at least one tank-calibre gun or autocannon, a grenade launcher and machine-gun for infantry killing (the latter can be used in limited anti-air), and usually either a pod for rockets or ATGMs.
Land-air mechs have a versatility all their own, though they'll still on average be beat out by actual dedicated aerospace-superiority fighters in the sky, as their transformability makes them less aerodynamic; and they aren't armored enough to fight ground mechs and win. There are some that also serve in space, but as you can tell these guys are the jack-of-all stats. Want a general-purpose fighting mech? Grab an LAS (Land & AeroSpace) robot.
Finally we have the cheapo hawken- and VOTOM-types that will dominate on the ground in numbers and will very likely serve better in MOUT (or inside space stations), and they're cheaper, but they're little better than over-sized and over-armored exo-suits (which the setting has, but more Elysium than Halo or 40k).
>>46232253
>Nobody notices because just like everywhere else, the battles that go full retard and throw out a lot of the rules are the most glorified and documented.
Like dropping the whole damn colony...
I'm fine with all genres of mechs in gaming. A more realistic approach approach means with out some handwavium magic there is no purpose of building mechs much over 3 meters tall. Just too big a silhouette.
Yes, there should be some kind of narration supporting the biped tanks.
Even if it is the story's justification is that someone thought it would look cool.
I prefer exo-frames for their "superhuman" but not "giant ass target" biped mechanical machine qualities.
>>46219834
I think a lot of grea/tg/uys here are missing the point.
Explain Real robots, enjoy super robots.
It's all about the setting.
Also, explanations are best suited when there's an elegant solution that seems like it explains away the problems, even when it doesn't. Minofsky, despite some anon's protests, works pretty well in the softer science of mech shows. If you want hard science mech, there really isn't much here for you and I'm not sure why you're here.
Dai Guard is the best though. Real robot in Super robot armour.
>>46226682
It gives people psychic powers
I always had a love for tripods/insectoids/crab/spider mechs
Spider-tank, Spider-tank,
Does whatever a Spider-tank does.
>>46232575
You mean Nether Gundam.
>>46223744
And... it has all the justification we need for giant robots.
>>46235758
Including house cleaning!
>>46219834
Gasaraki did realistic Mecha pretty well, aside from the whole "resurrected demon muscles controlled by magical autistic children" thing.
Personally, I like the VOTOMS/Heavy Gear/Front Mission perspective, 4-5m height (15m Gundam height is nonsense), with some added details of my own. First of all, from my point of view, replacing tanks isn't necessary: mecha could just be one more element in the combined arms scheme, a sort of superheavy infantry. Secondly, you don't pit them against main battle tanks in open ground: they'd be highly mobile, excelling in urban and otherwise built-up environments where heavier platforms can't really make use of their range advantage. Ideally, these mechs would be humanoid and controlled via neural interface, so as to make their operation as intuitive and natural as possible to the pilot.
And well, that's about it. Armour would be fairly light so as to keep weight down and mobility high, and they would use a mixture of cover, dodging and countermeasures to avoid attacks their modest plating can't withstand. Could even have small active defense systems to deal with the occasional RPG. Not that any of these measures would make them impervious: after all, nothing is. But it'd give them decent defensive capabilities based around not getting hit.
I've only considered the ground aspect of this, not really space and the more Gundam-like side of things.
>>46244383
I've played in a setting like this before. It was pretty fun stuff. Gave a nice opportunity for giant robot action in combined-warfare stuff, and also gave my guys a break from my usual giant-robot setting, which is >>46232859.
Nice taste.
>>46219834
I kinda miss those days when we had a "mecha games general."
Someone really should set up an OP for it. I would, but I'm not familiar enough with exactly what games everyone plays.
>>46244822
Is Giant Guardian Generation still a thing with /tg/?
>>46244892
You mean this? https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Giant_Guardian_Generation
I haven't heard of it before now.
>>46244383
>I've only considered the ground aspect of this, not really space and the more Gundam-like side of things.
On the ground yeah, you're pretty solid on it.
I'd throw a bit of Code Geass' early Knightmare Frames in the mix, where anything big enough to ride instead of wear would have a farily well armored cockpit that could protect the pilot even if the whole machine was wrecked, possibly including the main powerplant and having modular limbs for easier maintenance.
They'd be the ultimate urban shock troops, one or two in a squad of heavy infantry serving both as bullet sinks and a bigass heavy weapons platform.
Or, if you had the tech, you could take a page from late UC Gundam and build something like the D-50C Loto.
While it's still twice as big as your preferred height at 12 meters, that's because it's actually an IFV that can transform into a mobile suit!
It's "forearms" are little more than missile pods and an additional simple robotic sub-arm with a clamp and beam cutting torch.
For my own idea for a Gundam setting, there are the Space Colony Fighting Suits that are towards the upper ends of the traditional Gundam size (18 meters and change, something only 16 yards tall just seems too small to me), and then there is the reason the Federation equivalent isn't in danger of loosing a war; The giant Guntank equivalents that are really just semi-humanoid shaped mobile orbital railgun platforms.
They're pretty much operating bases that keep moving in order to be harder to hit via orbital strike.
>>46219834
Offhand justification is fine.
That said, I feel that smaller mechs - landmate style stuff - don't really even need justifying. Something like that would have a very real role on a modern or near-future battlefield.
>>46219834
>Should settings try to justify them, or should they be pure rule of cool?
Any justification that actually makes it a good idea to make a tank stand up or fly, without it getting raped by the specialized, logical vehicles are inevitably going to be dumber than just having them in there and pretending like it's a good idea.
There is only rule of cool, and that's fine.
>>46245310
for more realistic settings i prefer mechs like this
big enough to ride in
primary weapons mounted on the mech itself
arms used mainly for lifting and carrying
>>46245365
>>46245167
There's several things I don't like about that D-50C thing:
- Transformation adds a degree of engineering complications, and in this case doesn't seem really necessary.
- Big, tank-competing guns (also excessive in number), which isn't the idea. That thing's still going to die going up against a low-profile MBT in open ground, and in built-up environments all those guns would be worth squat.
- Too damn high.
I'll take the opportunity and expand on that last point: what is it with the height fetish, in general? It's unnecessary and puts the vehicle in pointless danger, and you can have all the coolness of a mecha concentrated in a smaller, more sensible package while still not qualifying as a worn power suit (pilot sits within the torso).
>>46245831
Glass cockpits are a no-no. A bunch of pseudo-realistic mech designs fall for that.
>>46219834
I'm partial to Armored Core-type mechs, myself. So they need not necessarily be bipedal, or even have legs at all.
Human-like arms can potentially be very useful.
>>46245310
>I found mah Box!
>>46245365
>Oh Noes! Muh Box!
>>46220069
If anything that showed how fucking amazing the computer programmers were back then.
These days it takes several fucking DVD's to fit one program.
I do really enjoy mechs but I dont think they can be amazingly viable if made IRL. Maybe if they are one of those four/six legged ones.
>>46223730
I'm so happy that Konami is working on the next ZoE game.
>>46223730
How do you explain LEVs then? They had standard arms and legs and mostly fought on the ground. They were also in use long before Orbital Frames.
>>46247561
Didn't that get cancelled? Or was there recent news about it?
>>46247700
Yup, they're making it.As a Pachinko machine
>>46247948
Fuck you
>>46245975
>There's several things I don't like about that D-50C thing:
I'll try to address them as best I can...
>- Transformation adds a degree of engineering complications, and in this case doesn't seem really necessary.
This I'll give to you, since there aren't a lot of good reasons for a troop transport to a bipedal humanoid.
Still, this is from the first Gundam Universe; In-setting it's hasn't even been a decade since the Zeta Gundam from humanoid Mobile Suit (semi-justified form in-universe due to AMBAC) to Wave-rider form (some kind of space fighter jet?).
So it's basically a situation where everyone's been flying around in Humanoid Mecha for a couple of decades now, and only NOW has someone finally made a model that can carry more troops than the pilot.
>- Big, tank-competing guns (also excessive in number), which isn't the idea. That thing's still going to die going up against a low-profile MBT in open ground, and in built-up environments all those guns would be worth squat.
Yeah, ideally this thing wouldn't need anything more than it's missile arms and that small machine gun you see on the green ones shoulder...
Thing is, it was made to be a member of the Guntank line, between the original most-plausible-real-robot-but-still-glaringly-flawed RX-75-4 Guntank and the F-50D Guntank R-44; that somehow manages to be BULKIER than the Loto (probably because it was designed in the eighties) even though it is two meters shorter.
Hell, I think it's Tank Mode profile is actually taller than the Loto it was supposedly developed from.
So yeah, the Loto has optional cannons basically because it's also suppose to be a Mobile Suit Tank...
<Continued>
>>46245975
>>46248471
<Continued>
>- Too damn high.
>I'll take the opportunity and expand on that last point: what is it with the height fetish, in general? It's unnecessary and puts the vehicle in pointless danger, and you can have all the coolness of a mecha concentrated in a smaller, more sensible package while still not qualifying as a worn power suit (pilot sits within the torso).
Well you might not understand it because it's pretty much entirely psychological: A bigger humanoid form is more impressive and intimidating!
A 14 foot robot only has that effect if it's right next to you, that's why I said they'd make good urban shock troops, but even thirty yards away a Scopedog is going to look more comical than frighting.
Hell, to reference the earlier comments about the Federation beating Zeon through logistics, the "machine" that really won the war wasn't the GM, it's was the RB-79 BALL, almost LITERALLY the EVA Pod from 2001 A Space Odyssey with a CANNON bolted to the top.
>Glass cockpits are a no-no. A bunch of pseudo-realistic mech designs fall for that.
I don't see why not...
We still have Fighter Jets and Attack Helicopters using bullet-proof "glass" canopies, why wouldn't a Mech Jockey want as much naked eye visibility as possible?
>>46221020
Which begs the question of why decades (or even centuries) of technical advances never led to improved point defence weapons. They still need ships to transport mobile suits and personnel. Since mobile suits are clearly the largest threat by far, why even mount any weapon designed to fight other ships post-One Year War? Hell, even before the first series, Char was blowing up battleships in a fucking Zaku! If it was me, I would just use my far larger chassis to mount as many goddamn point defense weapons as possible and destroy any mobile suits heading my way with a wall of hellfire. Once they're gone my mobile suits can pick off the enemy ships that were dumb enough to mount capital weapons while I stay out of targeting range.
>>46231903
Actually... not the case. Unmanned is a high liability to hacking and to malfunction of the navigation. Also if they lose contact with GPS... good luck. Finally there is the high collateral drones cause.
>>46219834
You can't justify them, full stop.
However, you can say why your setting has them, which is not quite the same thing. Just don't go into detail and don't try and make them realistic, at all, because you can't.
But use them because they're great.
>>46249015
>If it was me, I would just use my far larger chassis to mount as many goddamn point defense weapons as possible and destroy any mobile suits heading my way with a wall of hellfire. Once they're gone my mobile suits can pick off the enemy ships that were dumb enough to mount capital weapons while I stay out of targeting range.
Well the problem there is probably heat dissipation...
Most Anti-Mobile Suit beam weapons seem to have rather low rates of fire, probably to keep the barrels from liquidating on them.
So you could either have a bunch of Anti-Mobile Suit sized guns plinking about, or just a few fuck-huge Anti-Ship Beam Cannons that will do the whole "Wall of Hellfire" thing better?
>>46248835
>We still have Fighter Jets and Attack Helicopters using bullet-proof "glass" canopies, why wouldn't a Mech Jockey want as much naked eye visibility as possible?
It's pretty much just helicopters. Even the A-10 just has the very frontmost piece of glass "resistant" to small arms fire. Any actual fighter jet is about as armored as my honda civic.
Helicopters have armored glass because they are aircraft, which need good visibility, but ones that fly slow and low enough that any asshole can shoot at them, and being aircraft, the entirety of the craft can't feasibly be armored to stop anything more than 12.7mm, so the extra weight of armor on the cockpit at least brings that highly important part up to the same level of protection as the rest of the vehicle.
People tend to overhype how armored helicopters get. Someone was saying, for instance, that the new russian attack heli was armored to take 30mm cannon fire, when in actuality, it was armored for 12.7mm in most places, and the rotor blades were engineered to survive having a 30mm hole punched in it without flying apart.
TL;DR: bulletproof glass stops being feasible when the threats you want to stop get more powerful than machine guns.
Rolled 26 (1d100)
>>46219834
In my sci fi setting mechs are basically bigger tanks (that can sorta hover and fly due to their engines) with more firepower and manuverability that come in three sizes. The first is basically powered armors just a little bigger. The second is a bit bigger than powered armors (think in between power suits and gundams). The third are gundam-sized mechs.
Depends on the setting. If it's fucking Gurren Lagann, any explanation beyond FUKKEN MAGIC is pointless and might even detract since it looks silly to try to justify that level of physics breaking bullshit.
But in a relatively down-to-earth setting, I actually like a fairly detailed explanation. Not necessarily a "realistic" one, but at least an attempt to justify them beyond "they look cool". My personal favorite is probably Heavy Gear, where they're not actually a replacement for conventional vehicles, but rather a sort of missing link between infantry and tank. They will get their shit pushed in against a tank in a straight fight, but they bring maneuverability to the table, in addition to helping infantry survive on a goddamn desert death world.
>>46250129
>Walking M2 Bradley on roller skates
>On desert sands
Never did understand how that was supposed to work. Oh well, making sense is a small price to pay for VOTOMS: The Video Game
>>46219834
>Legged war vehicles, mech(s)(a) if you will, do you like them?
No larger than a suit of powered armor.
>Should settings try to justify them, or should they be pure rule of cool?
You /can't/ justify mechs, they're inherently unrealistic. The rule of cool is the only way to go about it, imo.
Superheavy tanks are still cooler, though.
>>46250229
Wasn't the explanation that most of the planet wasn't actually sand, but more like the savannah? Plus, that's just the Badlands. The North and South (IE the parts of the planet with actual human civilization) are mostly jungle and mountain, respectively.
And besides, it's just a justification for robutts. At least it makes more sense than "Minovsky did it".
>>46247700
Also he's wrong about the limbs not being usable on Orbital Frames.
>>46249819
>TL;DR: bulletproof glass stops being feasible when the threats you want to stop get more powerful than machine guns.
So what the fuck are your 13 foot Shock trooper mecha going to be fighting that's more powerful than machine guns?
>>46250328
>You /can't/ justify mechs, they're inherently unrealistic.
Um, you CAN, their just mostly niche environments...
>>46249778
Because capital class weapons always miss and were the reason Char could become the Red Comet in the first place? Like the other anon just said, the fact that mobile suits can dance around capital ships at point blank range is fucking ridiculous considering that point defense tends to be a priority for those kinds of ships. At the very least just launch mobile suits and run the fuck away instead of blasting uselessly with cannons that either miss or get blocked by Gundam-sized shields.
I really like Gundam, but at a certain point it gets annoying that none of the mobile suit advances get applied to the capital ships that are necessary to the war effort. This gets extra dumb with giant mobile suits that are essentially capital ships that happen to be far less convenient and useful. That's one of the things I love about Macross. As awesome and important as Valkyries are, you still had the emphasis of giant battleships being on another level.
>>46250712
>That's one of the things I love about Macross. As awesome and important as Valkyries are, you still had the emphasis of giant battleships being on another level.
It's a shame they stuck to such shitty CGI in the later franchises. Such a good opportunity for animated mecha porn, wasted.
Gundam may treat its battleships worse, and honestly speaking the Macross designs may be cooler (though that's entirely subjective), but at least Gundam still animates the majority of its stuff instead of relying on crappy CG.
>>46250814
>at least Gundam still animates the majority of its stuff instead of relying on crappy CG
Because they can afford it.
Sunrise are rich as fuck, and Gundam is pretty much a license to print money, so they can afford to spend the money for traditional animation.
>>46250814
>It's a shame they stuck to such shitty CGI in the later franchises.
It's understandable due to budget and time constraints.
>>46247561
>Working on the next ZoE game
>With the only person who gave a fuck about the series scrubbed from the company entirely
Yeah, about that...
>>46250502
Orbital Frames are just explained by metatron being god-juice. It's even named after the fucking Voice of God, if that wasn't enough of a clue for you. Sure, there are all kinds of scientific explanations for vector traps and AI and whatnot, but at the end of the day it just boils down to metatron being so ridiculously overpowered that all other forms of weapons, up to battleships several hundreds of times the size of an orbital frame, are rendered completely obsolete. Unless you count Fist of Mars as being canonical, in which case semi-custom LEVs are goddamn god-machines capable of single-handedly wrecking experimental cutting edge orbital frames piloted by enhanced super soldiers. But most people just pretend Fist of Mars never happened.
>>46250712
>At the very least just launch mobile suits and run the fuck away instead of blasting uselessly with cannons that either miss or get blocked by Gundam-sized shields.
Well usually it's Launch Mobile Suits and head full steam at the objective with Cannons blazing...
...But yeah, Gundam was built around the concept of Giant Infantry warfare in SPACE.
Hell, it was just suppose to be INFANTRY Warfare in SPACE with POWERED ARMOR, which is why the Zaku has breathing tubes and the Gundam is Space Samurai armor.
The Execs wanted them to be Giant Robots because, well, it'd be cooler and sell more toys, so the Space Battleships drifted into the background since if they were ACTUALLY useful, they'd make the Giant Robots irrelevant AND they wouldn't sell as many toys.
>>46250814
At least it's not Aldnoah Zero.
>>46250878
>>46250910
>budget
I'm more than aware of why, I'm just saying that it's clearly a point against the franchise as whole. Maybe if they focused more on the actual war and character drama in their franchise as opposed to using awesome mechs as an excuse to listen to j-pop, they'd have done better.
We can argue why all we want, but it's unarguable that Gundam tends to do better because you don't need to look at shitty CGI to get your mech porn.
>>46250952
There's a happy middle ground. Macross, for example. Even if the Macross is a hybrid. Aircraft carriers not being entirely useless in a fight didn't make Fighters and bombers obsolete. Mobile suits should replace conventional space fighters, not capital ships.
>>46223570
>that song
>>46250969
Well, the j-pop was there since day one. It was kind of part of the whole Macross package. Complaining about that is kind of missing the point.
>>46250693
>So what the fuck are your 13 foot Shock trooper mecha going to be fighting that's more powerful than machine guns?
Soviet era RPGs? And once 13 foot shock troopers have been around for a couple years, widespread and ubiquitous use of existing 40mm HEDP rounds in every squad?
>>46251158
>complaining about that is kind of missing the point
If you're there to watch the show for its own reason, yeah. But when I tried to get into it for its badass designs--considering my first exposure to it was through Plus--I didn't figure that the j-pop would take THAT much a priority. Honestly speaking, I'm kind of disappointed. I vieww the entire thing as wasted potential. Gundam has its problems, but at least it knows what it is: war- and character-drama shown through the lenses of settings where giant robots are a major aspect.
>>46250969
Gundam does better because Gunota have the BIGGEST case of Battered Spouse Syndrome.
>>46249057
That's actually why they gave up on the Ghost in the story too.
While Ghosts complete out perform every VF by a land slide( took an ace using YF-21 to maximum speed to take it down with him) , it was high-jacked by rogue AI in the test run and therefore the project was ultimately scraped.
While Ghosts are still available their performance are locked to man-level.
There were scenes in Macross F where Ghosts are unlocked and raping everything again through.
>>46219960
We dig giant robots
>>46219834
Pure rule of cool. Fuck logic.
>>46250712
1. That's exactly what they do actually, but usually you still need to stay in range to reteive the MS after the fight.
The only exception was the battle of A Baoa Qu, where both side was throwing everything they have into the meat grinder.
2.The budget and resource were limited before and, if you should notice the majority of their fleet are still using pre-0079 model.
The new ships do get their due upgrades in UC0123 and then again in UC0153.
That insane motor ship squad is one of the scariest shit in V Gundam.
>>46251230
>battered spouse syndrome
Maybe with some of the series, yeah. There are a lot--some are hit, some are miss--but pretty much every single one gives pretty promising action, at least a few decent characters, and animted combat and awesome mech designs that don't clash with the world around them by being shitty CGI.
We can measure cocks on who likes who's mech shows more, if you want. I feel pretty "meh," about both, honestly. But Gundam will pretty much always give better action and better-animated robots. You know, in the "mecha," category of shows.
>>46251035
>There's a happy middle ground. Macross, for example. Even if the Macross is a hybrid. Aircraft carriers not being entirely useless in a fight didn't make Fighters and bombers obsolete. Mobile suits should replace conventional space fighters, not capital ships.
Problem is your going about it backwards...
As stated earlier, Aircraft made Warships almost completely obsoleted by their greater Range of Operation; Bombers and Fighters weren't as restricted by the horizon like a Naval Cannon was...
But in Space, there IS NO HORIZON!
Your big-ass Rail Guns can, with the right orbital math and planning, hit shit on the other side of the solar system!
We go back to whoever has the biggest gun that fires first wins, because that iron-coated tungsten rod is going to hit whatever it was shooting at with the force of a small nuke.
Any "Carrier" is going to have to be a shield strong enough to tank those hits and BIG enough to shield whatever it's suppose to carry.
What makes a Macross class ship relevant in a fight isn't its fighter complement, it's the fucking fleet obliterating MACROSS CANNON, and even then it requires a complected energy shielding system to protect it from enemy fire.
>>46251229
Mecha is only 1/3 of Macross, you got the how point wrong.
The song IS the big thing, as big as the triangle love scene and the Mechas.
They never beat their opponent in combat in both macross and macross 7, it was the songs that made the difference in the end.
Its not about fighting, but understanding.
>>46251442
Fighters will pretty much always be useful in space opera even if you don't use them for trope reasons. Simply speaking, it offers combatants even more directions to fight from. Point defense might make them even more difficult to use in combined warfare, but they'd still have a place. Smaller missions that can't quite use full-sized ships, things like that.
>>46251035
>Mobile suits should replace conventional space fighters, not capital ships.
Naw, nigga, I think it would be excellent to see mobile suit aircraft carriers launching regular fighters, and then getting into fistfights with other carriers.
>>46250969
>Why doesn't this franchise cater to me by doing the exact same thing as that other one instead of its own thing?
The issue, in this case, is with your preferences.
>>46251488
And that's totally cool, I'd watch a show about robots, music, and understanding--if the robot third of the entire show didn't look like such shit.
I'm not saying I don't understand the purpose. I'm saying that because instead of doing slightly worse animation that would have fit the rest of the show, they went the route of shitty CGI that's basically a cancer to pretty much all cartoons.
And, frankly speaking, their mecha designs are too cool to waste that opportunity. Give me music, give me understanding, but also give me good robot action with your awesome robot design ideas.
>>46251573
See >>46251577. I'm not pissed they're not going to my preferences, I think they wasted an opportunity of doing their own thing with the full package of awesome, and instead only went two-thirds of the way there.
>>46251594
See >>46250910 and >>46250878
>>46251594
If we wanna play dick measuring about animation quality?
Go watch Do You Remember Love or Plus.
When they have the budget to do it, Macross can do fucking GORGEOUS traditional animation. But they just don't have the money of late.
>>46251699
Quit being pedantic senpai. Already commented on those. Besides, I think it's fair to say that going with slightly-less quality animation that fit the animation of the rest of the show would have honestly done better than going with shit CGI. At least, it would have done better in my opinion because that tremendous clash of aesthetics is what drove me away. But, as we've all been saying, that's a taste thing.
>>46251747
I started the Macross series with Plus, and it spoiled me. I'm going to check out Do You Remember Love at your recommendation, it's just a shame that they didn't do well enough to help fund the rest of the franchise after them.
Also if you would feel more comfortable with actual cock-measuring in my response, check out Unicorn and 08th MS Team. Animation is primo, broski.
>>46251577
its the budget problem again.
Mech fight cost the most to produce, they don't have the money for it anymore.
Remember Macross Plus was made in the golden age of japan back when they had tons of money, and it was an OVA, which is what made the high quality possible.
You can't do that in a TV anime, period.
You don't have the time nor the budget.
CGI is what they are trying to keep the fight scene in with the increasingly lower budget.
>>46251882
I suppose this entire argument could be summed up here.
I understand, it's just really unfortunate in my opinion.
>>46251799
>>46251747
>movie/OVA series' having good animation
News at eleven.
>>46251799
Why are you keep using OVA as standard and compare them to TV animation?
do you even know how anime production works?
>>46251920
They still made a movie version of macross F and it had better quality all over.
The problem with you is you think TV animation could possibly be comparable to OVA.
Its like comparing my home made video to a Hollywood blockbuster.
>>46251977
Because seeing the OVA first before I understood the difference basically spoiled the TV shows for me, and I can't really go back to them because even if we took the OVA factor out of it, I think that the shit CGI just clashes WAY too much and I wouldn't like it even if those awesome OVA didn't exist.
Honestly guy, see >>46251920. I'd be repeating myself more and more to you if we kept this up, and we're shitting up an otherwise good thread. I don't agree wiht your subjective opinion. Let it go.
>>46252071
>objective opinion
>>46252030
You dont' agree with my objective opinion you mean?
Let's look at you at
>>46251799
subjective much?
I love someone who keep using his subjective prejudice as actual point that he is making.
Shows how big a dickhead he is.
>>46251180
>Soviet era RPGs? And once 13 foot shock troopers have been around for a couple years, widespread and ubiquitous use of existing 40mm HEDP rounds in every squad?
Which will STILL fuck your mechs shit up anyways, so why not have the optical visibility to see it?
You don't even NEED that much truly exposed, just the pilots' head or even his eyes.
What's really going to give the Mecha Shock Trooper the edge in such a fight is the on-board threat detection and determination A.I.
We actually have that technology now, where a computer can listen for the specific sound an RPG or Machine gun being primed and then point it out.
While it's current implementation, an automatic turret to shoot in that direction, has some serious ethical issues, that kind of enhancement to a soldiers' battlefield awareness would be an UNBELIEVABLE advantage!
Best of all?
Because of Tactical Networking, the Shock Trooper Mecha can share this information with it's squad of squishies nearly as instantaneous as its telling the pilot!
Hell, with small and powerful enough battlefield ready processors and motivators fast enough to keep up, these machines could Gun Kata their way through an entire battlefield of unnetworked, RPG wielding Infantry!
This machine would essentially MAKE it's Operator a New-Type!
>>46251229
>-I didn't figure that the j-pop would take THAT much a priority. Honestly speaking, I'm kind of disappointed. I vieww the entire thing as wasted potential.
Well to be fair to the original, it technically did serve a purpose; Cultural Victory.
The Earth Forces stood no chance militarily against the Zentraedi; It was basically one planet against half the Galaxy...
But Earth CULTURE, so alien to the rigid, dogmatic, and militaristic mindset of the Zentraedi and Meltrandi, that it had a literally memetic effect on their very way of THINKING!
It transformed what was two ancient races of biological warmachines into, well, GIANT HUMANS!
>>46252160
>subjective much?
Yes. Literally subjective much. Did you miss the part where I said that my opinion is literally a "taste thing?"
>>46252198
>Well to be fair to the original [snip]
And that's cool. I honestly don't mind. I'm trying to say that if I didn't think the CGI clashed so much, I'd watch the shit out of that. But, unfortunately, it does--at least, in the later series. I've been told by a friend I should try to watch the older one as it used entirely animation, and I'm going to. I'm simply saying that the CGI killed what could have been a great show for me, personally.
But at least you're trying to have an honest conversation, as opposed to >>46252160.
>>46251488
>They never beat their opponent in combat in both macross and macross 7, it was the songs that made the difference in the end.
>Its not about fighting, but understanding.
I'm pretty sure it was the same in Macross Frontier, they just had to beat the shit out of the Bitch who used UNDERSTANDING as MIND CONTROL!
>>46251523
>Fighters will pretty much always be useful in space opera even if you don't use them for trope reasons. Simply speaking, it offers combatants even more directions to fight from. Point defense might make them even more difficult to use in combined warfare, but they'd still have a place. Smaller missions that can't quite use full-sized ships, things like that.
Yeah... No.
Big thing your missing here: Delta V.
If you expend more than half your available thrust going out... Your not coming back.
This is exactly why most Space Mecha Carriers don't stray too far from their Space Mecha; If one goes too far out, they can't risk going off to get you.
It's exactly why AMBAC is such a big deal; You don't waste precious reaction mass orienting your craft in combat.
While many series gloss over this with huge or even infinite power sources and at least seemingly non mass-reactive drives, it's pretty much the entire reason why "Space Fighters" are even less likely than Giant Robots.
>>46252292
>But at least you're trying to have an honest conversation
Yeah, sorry about that, I was actually lagging a bit in my posting.
>>46252198
Actually it's not because its different but because its familiar.
The Human's ancestry was engineered by the proto-culture that created Zentraedi.
So human culture is familiar to them.
Meltrandi only appeared in the movie and technically didn't happen that way.
The movie is suppose to be the movie people in macross universe made about the first war, so Lin Minmay is far more idolized than she were in TV.
>>46252292
hmm blaming others for him shitting up the thread with his shit posting of "I think its shit because I think its shit", how original.
>>46252529
>Delta V
Well, yes. Science. But I'm assuming we're talking about space operas? Science need not apply depending on how much otherwise trope-driven cool you want.
>>46252613
>hmm blaming others for him shitting up the thread with his shit posting of "I think its shit because I think its shit", how original.
I want to respond, but I don't actually know what you're trying to say. Give me the tools to understand your sentence.
>>46252708
All you posted is "I think its shit because its shit".
Then when anyone explain to you why TV animation can't have OVA quality you post more OVAs and keep on ranting "I think its shit because its shit".
All your posts are shit posts.
>>46252760
I think you're missing the point of what I'm trying to say. And at no point have I tried to say that it's just blanket shit without at least trying to make it clear that it's actually my opinion.
Look, I don't like a thing that you like. You can be upset at it, just don't rampantly accuse me of shitposting because of it. Makes you look like a retard.
>>46252529
While Jovian Chronicles did fail to show us why mecha were somehow replacing conventional space ships, at least they did take reaction mass into account. Space combat is a hell of a lot scarier when you're literally counting down the seconds until you've burned through all your fuel and float into the coldness of space at combat speed to either get picked off or slowly suffocate.
>>46252807
>post a bunch of posts bitching about a TV animation's quality can't match up to a OVA
> not shit posting
pick one.
>>46250693
>Um, you CAN, their just mostly niche environments...
Give me one example you namefagging motherfucker,
remove zeon scum!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aauHXyQGCaY
>>46252909
Techncially he started with bitching about how a moderately successful mecha franchise doesn't have as big of an animation budget as THE most successful mecha franchise.
>>46255277
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NkBhgJwFCI
>>46255277
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IY02Y537To
>>46255277
Aww, for a moment there I almost thought Zeeks were people.
>>46255705
Its the Zabi lovers you need to watch out for
>>46219834
I usually justify mechs by saying they are controlled by ones nervous system and if you link a human to a plane or ship they would not operate it as well and because of this i can also have corrupt governments force linking people into huge star ships and essentially driving a person crazy while a basic AI makes sure they don't do anything "wrong"
>>46254562
one could make a case for legged vehicles in megastructures and other exotic space station style environments.
I prefer my robutts in the flavors of Big, Bulky, Mostly for Show and "Sweet Mother, if we used these things all the damn thing we're going to bankrupt the Nation..."
>>46254562
>>46257917
Let alone rugged, unstable terrain that needs constant ground presence...
>>46219834
I much prefer spidermechs.
Then again, it might be because I'm Cybran for life.
>>46258859
Looks like you've misclicked, bro.
Who doesn't dig giant robots?
Also you should never need to justify giant robots.
>>46258859
>>46259017
Two misscliks in a row, how embarrassing.
>>46252874
>While Jovian Chronicles did fail to show us why mecha were somehow replacing conventional space ships
Actually they do talk about it, AMBAC, propaganda, and marketing. The Jovian Confederation used giant robots because it was glamorous and awesome, in-universe there are even ace pilot action figure and model kit lines serving as advertising for how awesome the military is, and kids were more willing to join the military for a chance to pilot kickass giant robots, then everyone else started using them because the Jovians did. Also AMBAC.
So was the Gundam and White base another reason why the Federation won the One Year War?
I mean it basically buttrammed through most Zeon forces.
>>46262583
Yes, but it actually contributed more as a decoy than a combat group.
Zeon was very, very determined to kill the Gundam, and they wasted a LOT of strength to that end. If they had just ignored it in certain situations, they might have been able to conserve their strength and win some of the off-screen battles that cost them the war.
>>46262645
Of course, that wouldn't have made a very good anime if White Base remained the focus.
>>46262583
>>46262645
The fact that zeon couldn't force the EF into a peace treaty after the one week war means zeon will lose regardless of how well they fought.
EF is said to have 30 times the National Power Zeon have, its like US fighting a small island nation. (well its based on US vs Japan)
Gundam's main contribution in war was
1: Serve as a heroic icon of EF force, raising Morale.
2: Download Amuro's combat data to GM, thus increased rookie pilot's efficiency on GM.
3: Stopping the nuke in Odessa, saving a lot of life there.
The other things are minor.
>>46262583
If memory serves me right, later installments basically stated that while the Gundam and White Base did win some crucial battles for the Feddies, they were most important as a symbol of hope for a Federation that was suffering a series of defeats. They also served to draw a disproportional response from Zeon forces because of this, making things easier for Federation forces elsewhere.
>>46262583
There was also the fact that there was a ton of politicking in Zeon, particularly with their mobile suit development, which caused things to move forward really slowly in comparison to the Federation.
By the time the Gelgoog was mass produced they were down to mostly new recruits to pilot them.
>>46263663
false, false and false
The EF is way more advanced than Zeon in basic technologies is what made their MS development speed so far ahead.
They also had more research facilities running.
Zeon's problem with their mobile suits is they have too many models that doesn't share parts ( Mimicing the same problem Imperial Japan had during WW2)
which made repair and maintenance difficult.
There were still many veterans by the time Gelgoon was mass produced, but they prefer the more familiar models Like Zaku and Dom, and gave the Gelgoons to the younger recruits instead.
Does the Neotank from Advance Wars count as a mech?
>>46263728
>Gelgoon
Gelgoog.
>>46234916
by reacting to the bodies own electrical field
Lego mechs, anyone?
>>46264188
>>46263728
>There were still many veterans by the time Gelgoog was mass produced, but they prefer the more familiar models Like Zaku and Dom, and gave the Gelgoogs to the younger recruits instead.
Not really. Nigga this is almost explained word for word in igloo
>>46247700
LEVs were explicitly shit though. Even the mass produced mooks (which were low-spec Orbital Frames, technically) could rape them effortlessly.
