Hey /tg/ how do I do a SMT like game where YHWH is one of the antagonists without coming off as a Fedora Lord?
>>46047823
Put yourself in the shoes of the jews as christ fucks shit up, or the pharaoh as your firstborn die, or a roman as your gods die.
You have to work with the idea.
One of the central ideas to many of the SMT stories involving YHWH as the big bad centers around the idea that YHWH isn't in fact an all powerful god, simply a spirit, same as all the rest of the spirits you deal with, who just became powerful enough to be considered a god.
It also helps to keep with the Law/Chaos idea in that while YHWH might not exactly be the best guy ever, it's not as if everyone else is all roses and good intentions.
Then it just comes down to what game you're talking about. In the DS series, YHWH can be considered a good guy in many ways, at least in the first one. Don't know about the second.
Strange Journey kept him sort of out of focus as well, though it did suggest he had a hang in empowering the crew to deal with the demons. It was only one of the Archangels who got super crazy.
>>46047919
So a somewhat wrathful figure determined to impose his own order onto the world?
For context, it is a modern game taking place a little later in this year.
>>46047823
You are already talking about playing an RPG about an anime video game. It is far too late for you.
>>46047823
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tVTEyuCKn4
>>46047984
So it sounds like your only exposure to SMT has been the Persona games, and for that I'm sorry.
>>46047823
It's not that hard.
Just avoid Christianity and specific criticisms against it.
SMT for instance, is far more interested in telling stories about how blind idealism is a slippery slope that takes you down a path that turns you into a literal monster that kills all your friends and then tries to purge most of the world to remake it in your image.
Gnosticism, son. Gnosticism.
>>46048009
Nocturne is the best example of that one, I think.
Every single one of the chosen pushing either Law, Chaos, or even Neutral is ultimately flawed in their thinking, and every single one of them comes to regret the world they create if you side with them.
Even the Neutral girl, the only one who actually seems reasonable(and ultimately creates the only world that doesn't turn into a shithole) is so entrapped in the dogma of neutrality that she's actually incapable of fighting.
>>46048030
That's not really God that's the antagonist then, it's the demiurge.
>>46048009
I mean I'm already going down the plot that a family descended from Solomon is seeking to bring about the apocalypse by opening gates to each of the domains of the 72 demons of the Goetia and the forces of Law using this as an excuse to nuke everything while keeping their chosen squirreled away in safe areas to repopulate the world.
>>46047823
> Hey /tg/ how do I do a SMT like game where YHWH is one of the antagonists without coming off as a Fedora Lord?
Simple, everyone is a dick with flawed ideals, and the only reasonable option is not to listen to or side with anyone and make your own decisions instead.
>>46047919
I was going to suggest this. You avoid the fedoralord route by presenting multiple faiths, and portraying all of them at least somewhat sympathetic or justifiable.
>>46048073
But it is the "god" of the old testament. ie the real god's ego.
>>46048001
>anime fan
>sorry
>for someone else
>>46048144
>SMT
>anime
I wish, anon, I wish.
Persona 3/4 and Devil Survivor 2 are fuck-ups that are SMT only in name.
>>46048182
My biggest complaint with Persona3/4 is mostly just the art direction(and the AI in 3). They were just so boring to look at compared to the earlier games.
>>46047823
Literally be a pagan priest or holy warrior. That'll be one of many ways to present big G as your antagonist.
>>46048246
Well three of the characters aren't explicitly religious while the fourth is a catholic paladin which is what brought about these questions for me.
>>46048211
Plain art is bad, but ultimately forgivable. Not everyone can be as based as Kaneko, after all.
What isn't forgivable, however, is Social Links inclusion, which turned SMT's main punchline from "make your own decisions and trust only yourself" to "be friends with everyone".
It influenced and changed literally everything in Persona 3/4 tone, gameplay and atmosphere.
Where you had "fight demons and angels alike as humanity gets into their crossfire", you have "protect humanity from big bad Shadows".
Now you choose sides not because you agree with characters' reasoning and ideals, but because you need to max your Social Links.
And don't even get me started on dating sim elements.
And it's a funny story with Devil Survivor 2, because the plot and atmosphere of DS1 was pretty good, as far as SMT games go, but they fucked it up completely in DS2, apparently not understanding what makes SMT games, well, SMT.
tl;dr Social Links pretty much made every SMT game where they appeared as of now worse.
>>46047823
Three words: look into Gnosticism.
You fight ""YHWH,"" the demiurge, mad being that believes itself creator. Its real name is Yaldabaoth, Son of Chaos, or perhaps “Samael,” Blind God. He believes himself the only deity, ignorant of The One, rebel against the true God.
>>46048347
Can I ask what they did with DS2? I only played Devil Survivor Overclocked partway through (had to sell off my 3ds)
P3/4 are fine, but not SMT games.
And incidentally they are not, SMT was just a lable they slapped on P1 because hurr.
>>46048406
The tone shifted immensely.
Now you are riding around the Japan with your special organization of highschool kids and fighting demons. Oh, and they added a bastard S. Link mechanic that they called Fate System.
Your choices don't really matter, and the only real Law vs. Chaos choice comes only after the ending.
It's all very reminiscent of Persona 3, to be quite honest.
I mean, the gameplay itself is good, probably better than DS1 in some regards, but the plot and atmosphere, well, they are not so good.
>>46048347
I agree, but think social links would have been a workable concept if they'd included more than one way to actually complete them. As in actually about understanding how the person thinks rather than necessarily being buddies with them so that you could complete the links even antagonistically.
I would also like to add that in spite of this I still enjoyed P3/4, though they weren't my favourite Megatens.
>>46048394
So the Demiurge is a false god who has brought the angels to his side to remake a world where he is the one true god.
He particpates in the eternal war with Lucifer who seeks to break all connections with his creator for acknowledging Lucifer as his best creation
Satan is siding with the Demiurge in name only, seeking to prove to YHWH that all humans are pieces of shit who will follow anyone claiming to be God (and thus they aren't loyal to him at all)
The Hunters (humans in this game) are lead by a man who survived the last aborted attempt at a reckoning and he is using them as a method of staving off his own death since he saw that he would die in the next reckoning. Instead of trying to prepare his worldwide network of hunters for the inevitable apocalypse, he's focusing all of his energy on keeping the pot from boiling over.
The Divine Artificer is supplying the PCs with weaponry hoping that they break the Order well enough that he can get back into heaven after he was thrown out for siding with Lucifer.
The New Sciences Lab is headed by an old man who could help people, but he's mostly demented now and focusing on making his own power rangers team instead of actually helping.
>>46048537
>I agree, but think social links would have been a workable concept if they'd included more than one way to actually complete them.
I can actually agree with that. Vice versa is also true, though - basically, imagine Mass Effect dialogues with all the choices taken out. That's basically what Persona 3/4 is - a waifu simulator with combat. And, personally, waifu simulators just don't appeal to me.
On the same topic, imagine if Mass Effect 3 endings were the entire game, where your choices ultimately don't matter. That's basically Devil Survivor 2.
>>46048599
>*for not acknowledging
>>46048537
>>46048616
P.S.: Mass Effect was chosen as a lowest hanging fruit for an example, I know there are much better games that present actually meaningful choices.
>>46048472
>Your choices don't really matter,
Hey now, lets not spout complete lies. People can and do die depending on your choices. I agree with your other criticisms though.
>>46047823
Realistically all YHWH did to the Israelites was abandon them, which was what he said he'd do if they committed apostasy.
So for no Fedora territory maybe make YHWH not such a bad guy but just sort of
"Oh well you broke the rules so you're on your own. I'm respecting your right to free will, yet enforcing consequences."
YHWH protected the israelites from the swords of their enemies when they turned from him he just stopped protecting them.
>>46047823
Play it like SMT, you fool.
Lucifer is a force of change. Scary, progressing beyond safety into an unknown future, but you at least have the power to make things right.
YHWH is a force of order. Comforting, but stagnant, and without any flexibility. You know things will be safe, but they'll stay the same boring way forever.
Neither are good, neither are evil, either could be antagonists in an SMT game. God tends to be more often than not because fuck Nurgle.
>>46048700
This. YHWH isn't that bad of a guy in the Bible. He always keeps his words, gives warning about what will happen if you displease him, and his commands are never really that unreasonable, even if you don't understand them.
In an SMT game the problem might be that he's so self-assured of his own perfection, and maybe he starts making mistakes without realizing it. And that fucks shit up. So you have to get a bunch of demons and beat him up until he says, "Oh, my bad, I won't do that again."
>>46047823
As others have said, it's a matter of presenting him as a character with flaws.
If you wanted to walk the razor's edge, so to speak, you could deal with Syncretization and religious shift.
Records show that the name Allah was part of a pre-Islamic faithm, where he was the God of the Moon.
Some ancient sources imply that YHWH was originally a Hebrew god of War and Storms.
If you brought in other religions, you could touch on shit like Loki's character changing in later eddas, which some claim was the result of the Christian monks making him a more blatant Satan analogue.
Or you can touch on the fact that YHWH is more than a little arrogant. His first commandment was "Don't worship any one else.!" in a time and place where that would have been a fairly normal thing. Yes, he's a far more reasonable god than many, but it's still telling his first commandment is basically "And the other gods all SUCK."
You could almost play him as a sort of reverse Doom: Doom wants to rule the world because he is certain that he could run it better. God KNOWS he could make the world better, but he can't without violating the rules he himself made. And we just never seem to listen.
I'd make him sad. Shit's gone all to hell, and he's just tired. He's tried so hard for so long, and now he just wants to wipe it clean and try again. Maybe this time, he'll figure out how to say things so you'll listen.
However, as noted, a lot of these are really hard to pull off without coming across as fedora. Hell, I bet my brief summaries made some of them sound pretty fedorable. So I'd only try them if you think you and the group can make it work.
>>46047823
Eh, Fedora's kind of subjective.
If your players aren't particularly religious, you can get away with anything short of being a professional quote maker without making them cringe.
>>46048688
>pic
Oh, and two things I forgot.
In DS1, you could play protagonist as more or less genre savvy and sane person. In DS2, they replaced those choices with autism. I admit, it's fun autism, but I missed the more serious option to be a smart guy, who doesn't cluelessly get exposition shoved down his throat all the time.
>>46048717
>neither are good, neither are evil
>implying there was ever a SMT where any faction other than neutral wasn't batshit insane.
>>46049727
First Devil Survivor has God generally be pretty reasonable about the whole thing, it's just the angels that are being retarded.
Strange Journey implies God had a hand in you even having a chance, and ultimate it's revealed that the Archangel, not God, was the one going crazy.
Those are the two I can think of off hand.
>>46048633
BioWare games in general are a very good example on something that promises important choices and meaningful consequences to those choices but backs out and ends up giving you the illusion of a choice because the writing got too scared that people would miss parts of their awesome - and not the least bit trite, boring or predictable - story otherwise.
>>46048599
I came
>>46049833
Man, I wish we had a game with Alpha Protocol's plot, setting and dialogues, and Mass Effect 2's gameplay.
>>46047823
>Average JRPG
Wasn't the final boss of one of the Final Fantasy games literally the Virgin Mary?
Who the fuck are these Fedora Lords who 1) take pictures of them self like this and 2) consciously post the fucking things where people can take them and turn them into memes?
>>46049898
I wish we had a game with Alpha Protocol's plot, setting, and dialogues, that was actually fucking FINISHED.
At this point I'm convinced Obsidian are INCAPABLE of releasing a finished game.
>>46047823
>Hey /tg/ how do I do a SMT like game without coming off as a Fedora Lord?
The only winning move is not to play.
>>46047823
You play it completely straight.
>>46048098
JIMENEZ DID NOTHING WRONG
>>46048700
>This is what Christians actually believe
LaughingZionists.jpg
>>46051139
They are heavily staffed by former Troika employees, never seen them release a game that didn't need at least 6 months of patches either
>>46047980
pretty much this
>>46047823
It's simple.
Make him sorry.
Like, really, really sorry. Have God go:
"My Children, I am so sorry. You are imperfect, flawed creations - I know because I made you. You were never meant to be permanent, just building blocks on the road to true perfection. Out of love, I allowed you to exist, but I have come to realize that existence only brought you pain. It is kindest for all of existence for you to be unmade, rather than to continue your eternal suffering. I am so sorry for burdening you with the pain of existence, but now I have found it in Me to fix my errors. Forgive me for what I do now, my Children."
>>46053064
Would that come off as fedora tipping though
>"You thought your god was omnipotent, hahaha, *tips fedora*
Here's an idea.
Make him not care all that much. He has a plan to change things for the better. However, he also enjoys displays of Shounen Heroism. So, have him set up the rule beforehand that if your player party puts up a good enough fight, he'll respect their choice to live in an imperfect world. But they have to prove they've got what it takes to survive it by beating him.
That way, it's outright stated that he's holding back on purpose, so it avoids the "He isn't perfect" law but it still doesn't come off as "Oh, I let you win" because Humans have free will, and in order to beat him your party's will cannot falter even a little.
The idea is that, while one world (His) is objectively better than the other, living in the other isn't *bad* either, so He's still in the right for allowing you to get away with this so long as you pass His test.
>>46053305
This is also good.
>>46047823
Hey while we're at it, I have this setting I'm making.
It's basically a world where there are monstergirls everywhere. They capture men, pump them full of hormones, and turn them into ladyboys for their harems. Then they milk them for their semen to produce still more monstergirls.
My question is, how do I do this without going all Magical Realm?
>>46056562
Make it as horrifying as it sounds
The monstergirls are all cutey-cutsey but inside of the harem it is pretty much Drow society.
Make them die young, not only because your monstergirl overlords have little patience for property that is no longer pretty, but because their lifespans are shortened by the hormone treatment.
Make the ladyboy-ization into a long, painful process that has a high fatality rate.
>We have THIS many males, who cares if we lose %60 of them due to liver malfunction?
And what happens to human girls? Are they exterminated because they are seen as competition? Are they seen as equals by the monstergirls?
Who are your player? Are they males that escaped and are now being chased as fugitives? Males that were born out of the system? Monstergirls that are against the current order? Are other rebel groups common? Are they literal mancatchers in the prowl for some escapees?Anyway, ladyboys should be manly men's playthings. They are not for girls. Yes, i'll fite you!
>>46056792
Op here, now I have a new idea for one of the demonic realms
>>46056562
Plz go.
>>46056792
Well, that's a pretty standard but fine idea-
>spoiler
You too plz go.Stop ruining a perfectly fine thread, you cuntbadgers.
>>46056792
Some human females would be a necessity as they need future human males to keep their own races going.
I doubt that they would be treated like real people anymore than the men.
>>46047919
Or:
1: Old Testament God
2: Player characters are not Jews.
This will get pretty darn tootin' diddelydark in a hurry.
For not making your setting fedora i suggest:
>Make the current part of His plan so cruel and "evil" that most people lose their faith and revel
>Make it VERY clear that His plan will lead to good, even if they have to wait a few generations to see changes
>Now, while YHWH is the antagonist, he is not really EVIL so you can't take off some fedora counters (patent pending)
>But oppossing him is considered the most correct course of action BY HUMANS, even if it is futile
>Your players decide that facing YHWH maquinations is some sort of test put forth by him
>One they are willing to succeed in
>>46056962
>You too plz go.
Now i've made a second antagonist faction
A nation of really manly men that, under the pretense of helping their fellow males, capture and extract members of the monstergirl's harem for their own personal use.
While initially friendly to outsiders, they are only loyal to those of their own. Everyone else is a possible candidate for their own "feminization" process as a text subject.
They would readily drop the charade if they found out how to replicate the monstergirl's hormone therapy to make harems of their own.
While they lack a formal name they are coloquially known as "Monster Hunters" or "Slayers" for their antagonism with the second mayor group and their ability to fight them to a standstill.
You might be safer with them than with the monstergirls in the short term but don't overstay your welcome.I choose to stayI choose to stay
>>46057438
*less fedora
*rebel
*Knock off
Damn it
>>46047823
The same way you make dark, broody characters without making them edgy. Don't oversell it, and don't make the focal point of the campaign "LEL GOD IS EBIL HE CONDEMNS PPL TO HELL/DEMANDS UNQUESTIONED OBEDIENCE/HELD BACK SCIENCE AND CIVILIZATION/IS JEWISH". Whatever Big G's antagonistic machinations are, they should be extremely multi-faceted with ups and downs and lots of ambiguity. This should work just fine if you're just trying to tell an epic end-of-days story where the protagonists challenge God.
>>46049752
Devil survivor one also has god being the one who had abel killed as a lesson to caine.
>>46057769
Depends a lot on the setting as well. It's easily possible to have a setting where all the gods are evil as fuck or the likes but they just never do anything blatant to you.
The big thing people tend to screw up on is making it all too in your face look at this. Which as you mention really screws up taking it seriously.
Thanks for all your help guys
Here's a waifu
>>46061768
I got a better waifu here
>>46064142
Good taste.
>>46047823
Turns out christian universalism was wrong, god is real and he only cares about the descendents of the 12 tribes of Israel, the way it literally says in the bible.
So not only are you up against Yahwe, you're also probably fighting on the side of the antichrist against Jesus and you're prophesized to lose.
>>46064142
Purest waifu coming through
>>46047823
Why has this not been posted yet?
/TG/ I am dissapoint
Read this pic OP, this is your campaign right here.
>>46047823
on a semi-related note, is it possible to use a fedora lord as an antagonist and make it work out well?
>>46068314
Sorry, but not really what I was going for with this.
>>46068361
I was planning on having a god/demon of madness empower a fedora lord by giving them an artifact that boosts their ego to the point where they spontaneously gain channel divinity (euphoria) and cleric spells.
Of course the trade off is that it is going to make him a caricature of himself (or a perfectly accurate representation of an r9k poster)
>>46068499
I think this might be the only case in existence where Fedora: the Tipping would be a valid source of inspiration.
>>46047986
fuck i need to reqtch prince of egypt.
>>46070306
Something I need to watch
>>46071707
It's a roleplaying system from this board.
>>46053305
Unless this is taking place in the old testament, before he promised Noah not to do that kind of shit, I call shenanigans.
>>46071798
He promised not yo flood iirc, this time it's getting Thor to nuke the world.
>>46071798
He promised to show a rainbow when he wasn't doing it. No rainbow = flood baby
>>46071753
God damn that shit is cringy
So much asshurt went into making this
>>46072090
It's generally received good feedback on here, but I guess it's a matter of opinion.
>>46072166
I couldn't get past the wall of text.
>>46071753
so... exactly how far up your own ass do you need to go to become a true fedora lord?
>>46072407
There are rules in the GM's section for Crusty Ones, which are basically exactly that. They're fedoras who've thrown away any hope of becoming normal in exchange for a chance at making their delusions real, which has of course made them into horrible pseudo-human abominations who're completely unable to exist in human society and whose very presence can make people vomit.
>>46068499
>I was planning on having a god/demon of madness empower a fedora lord by giving them an artifact that boosts their ego to the point where they spontaneously gain channel divinity (euphoria) and cleric spells.
>Of course the trade off is that it is going to make him a caricature of himself (or a perfectly accurate representation of an r9k poster)
probably better than my idea, for my upcoming FFG Star Wars campaign, one of the BBEG's "minion commanders" is effectively an archetypal Fedora Lord, or at least as close to a fedora lord as the Star Wars universe can produce, that someone decided to give the Moff title to.may the force have mercy on those under his rule
>>46047980
>>46048098
It's also worth noting that some of the SMT games, particularly Strange Journey, SMT IV and Devil Survivor all imply The Great Will, the actual demon/god/entity that YHVH, Demiurge and others are reflections of isn't ACTUALLY all that bad of a dude, but rather that YHVH's apparent madness and despotism is a symptom of something going fundamentally wrong in the Amala. IV even goes as far to suggest the Demiurge avatar has completely broken free from the overall scheme of YHVH-beings and gone rogue. It's actually starting to remind me of the Elder Scrolls, what with the whole idea of aspects of the same being gaining independence and even entering into conflict with each other.
>>46071753
actually, kinda looks interesting... at least for a one-shot or maybe a 4-session-long stand alone adventure...
though I can imagine that the NPC questgiver is going to end-up with a palm-shaped welt across their face and a prescription for the heavy-duty aspirin before the end.
>>46047823
>a god who is omnipotent can somehow be beaten
Tip more please.
>>46072674
I like this and it is probably what I'm going to do with the Demiurge trying to reset the world to one where he is the true God and Satan is helping him to prove humans s a bunch of cunts.
>>46047823
Give him a top hat.
I will not crack!
>>46048469
Soul Hackers, Innocent Sin and Eternal Punishment were actually very SMT-esque, though.
>>46047823
Remember that the true and ultimate antagonist in SMT is the strange catalyzing apocalypse and how it makes villains out of all parties involved.
Play it straight, don't have them be arbitrary, don't have it be a caricature, don't get caught up on modern dogma or modern criticism, have their goal and the means to that end be both somewhat terrible and yet not completely unreasonable or invalid.
Like the plagues of Egypt. It freed those slaves but in the end the plagues killed more people than it freed. And the non-Israelite slaves weren't spared, either--THEIR firstborn died just as much as the Pharaoh's, as did first-born livestock. It's fucked up but it freed them, and when circumstances get dire on a truly metaphysical level there's not a lot of room for the consideration of others.
>>46047823
>ctrl+f
>paradise lost
>0 results
Nincompoops, the lot of you.
pic slightly related
>>46076699
I was planning on doing an innocent sin type scenario in SC, with rumors and phobias causing reality to shift.
