>Suggestions doc:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZO-js9ylLnqSrl4hVz1iJFE-S-imNrCrdnuyMaVrAk0/edit
>Playtest Tournament (New Campaign starting soon)
https://app.roll20.net/join/957864/GWL6Pw
.pdf attached.
>>45906988
Big things from last thread
>You can stack SOME transformations.
Using the Kaioken when you're already transformed? The GM might allow it. However, the Kaioken's going to have some pretty big changes to it next version. Rounds usable is limited to TOU+KI, and if you collect too much Fatigue, you might drop out of it instantly.
>Villains are still coming.
EMM has the notes for them.
>Equipment is still coming.
"Eventually, in the perpetually in development but never released Equipment chapter. I'm planning on having Weapons, Armor, Vehicles and some other miscellaneous stuff like the Healing Chambers and Capsules.
They'll probably have a hyper mega simplified system to build cool things with, mostly just changing weapons and armor. The Vehicles section won't really go in depth into too much aside from "Here are some hover bikes and cars and stuff, here are some spaceships and stuff, here's how to add stuff to those spaceships." Also tanks, because Sandland is great and everyone should read it."
>Defenses are getting buffed
Block is probably becoming a Reaction and Regalia's playing with various Reaction ideas, ranging from you can always react to having reactions equal to your Tier. Offense might see a bit of a downgrade.
>Charge is probably changing.
As it stands now, Charge is getting changed. Regalia mentioned the possibility of making it do B.V.s or making it Beam-exclusive.
>The book is getting reformatted
The online printing services are all 8x10, while the .pdf is 8.5x11.
>Majin Absorption is getting changed.
It will offer different benefits, but work more like Bio-Android absorption's. Or, rather, that's one possibility. They're accepting other suggestions.
>>45907147
>>45908558
You probably made the thread a bit early since we discussed pretty much everything there was to discuss.
>>45907147
>You can stack SOME transformations.
Does Super Saiyan + Oozaru still unlock SSJ4?
Can you even Super Saiyan & Oozaru?
Also why are the DN checks so high for Oozaru?
Would "Knowledge Control Oozaru" skill lend itself to controlling yourself?
>Tier based reactions
It works if your DM takes into account your ability to tier up compared to other races, and really puts emphasis on power over skill.
Making it rely on a stat might not be a bad idea, INT needs something to do.
I just think every Attack should allow for a reaction, and only not be allowed when there is intervention from another character i.e. a Feint or a Grapple.
Aid could be more useful, theres almost no situation where a character wouldn't be better off just attacking themselves instead of giving someone else an extra die.
>>45909725
More Representation > Less Representation
>>45910630
They already did up rules for the SSJ4. They're not going to put them back in, due to endless complaints, but all you have to do is put Tension requirements on there and you're good.
>>45910630
Also, given everything, Oozaru should be Tier 2, not Tier 1, but whatever. I guess it doesn't matter overmuch for Tier 2, since that's just an explosion limit dropping and Oozaru dice don't explode.
As for why it's high, I couldn't tell you. If you wanted to make it a Knowledge check, I'd discuss it with your GM and see if they'll allow it.
Right now, though, Tiering up isn't fantastic. Like, it allows you to have more successes and more dice, but the single reaction allows weaker tiers to shred you. The Tournament Crew had five characters kill a Tier 5 in one round, a Tier 6 in one round, and then get offed by a Tier 7 only when it got multiple attacks and reactions in one round.
>>45914158
Nipple armor. Batman memories aside, how would that work for Monaka?
>>45914302
Depends on whether or not his fighting style revolves around his mighty Poka.
Big discussions in the Suggestions Doc are currently... (and this is going off of things with recent edits added. Skipping over ones with dev responses)
>[Suggestion: Fixing the way Arcosian transformations work]
Essentially, they want the transformations to inflict Fatigue/Ki Drain until the transformations are 'mastered'. Or that they start big and make 'weaker' forms to scale things down. I don't know, read it over for yourselves. Personally, with Frost being about, the four-form setup seems standard to me.
>[Improvement: Non-combat skills aren’t worth the flavor]
An oldie but a goodie, it seems. I guess that all depends on how the GM uses the non-combat skills. I've noticed that a lot of players for this game only ever focus on combat applications, assuming they're going to hit the absolute highest level possible.
>[Suggestion: Ki Pools filling up]
This one's simple enough. They want to do better in melee if their Ki pool's filled up entirely.
>[Suggestion: Feint needs an opposed check]
It kind of does need one. Perception would be good. Right now, a single success in an unopposed deception roll is enough to get through.
>[Suggestion: Transformations add natural weapons]
This one's just kinda dumb, for reasons discussed in the doc already. Weapons cap your successes. Why limit those when you're going up in tiers, where they're easier to get?
>[Suggestion: Alternate Android/Cyborg rules]
A longer, more involved one that basically reworks how Androids and Cyborgs work in order to offer them energy draining palms or infinite energy generators.
>>45915076
>[Suggestion: ‘Bleeding’ Attack Trait]
Basically, attacks that do damage over time, like Burning, except it can only be stopped by Healing or a standard action. Not a fan.
>[Suggestion: Provide STR builds more variety and less reliance on Ki]
Basically, they want another fighting system for pure punch types, complete with movesets and special moves like legsweeps and wrestling moves.
>[Suggestion: Wrestling maneuvers.]
More of the above. Expand the grappling rules to allow for suplexes, falling damage, and multiplying damage for high flying moves.
>[Suggestion: Stealth and Sneak Attack Rules]
Simple enough. Make rules for stealth so that people can sneak attack like in Cell Saga.
>[Suggestion): Make Tension rise at different rates for opponents]
One more thing to keep track of. Make Tension rise at different rates because sometimes opponents aren't feeling as tense about something as... Uh. Their opponent/s.
>[Suggestion: Make Piercing do direct damage]
Rather than reduce the enemy's TOU, they want Piercing to ignore TOU entirely.
>[Suggestion: Changing Charge to work without using multipliers]
Two offers for Charge changes. One is making Charge guarantee ranks of Burst Value. 2*Rounds Charged=Automatic Burst Values. The other option is making your final Burst Value mutliply by rounds charged. If you would've made 2 attacks via B.V.s and your successes, but charged for three turns, that means you get 6.
>[Improvement: Make Blinding cheaper or make it scale off of successes.]
Blinding has *3 cost. It uses Damage Amp and only stuns opponents for 1 or 2 rounds, meaning that if you blow your Ki wad on this, you can't take advantage of it in a solo fight.
>[Suggestion: Invert HP, track accumulated damage taken instead]
Have health in stages/blocks of 10 measuring Fatigue. Count how much damage you've collected, not how far from your maximum HP you are.
>>45907147
Sorry for not commenting a lot towards the end of the last thread. Been in a panic all day. My dog is an old fuck and he dislocated his hip. We just got back from the vet at like 1 AM and I have work in like eight hours.
As far as the book getting reformatted - mainly I just want to be able to print off a quality book to just have after the rules get hammered out. It's just easier for me to reference over having a PDF. Back when it was feasible in v0.3 and earlier I used to print it out and put it in a binder.
So yeah, I'm looking at the options for printing it in color, probably in paperback. Looking at bulk pricing too just in case I want to be neat and do a few giveaways or something.
Just noticed that Ki Sizes are no longer a thing but burning still says this:
The flames, if not put out, last for a number of turns equal to the size of the attack (Small = 1, Standard = 2, ect).
>>45915639
Aw. Hope your doggie's okay!
>>45915076
>>[Improvement: Non-combat skills aren’t worth the flavor]
>An oldie but a goodie, it seems. I guess that all depends on how the GM uses the non-combat skills. I've noticed that a lot of players for this game only ever focus on combat applications, assuming they're going to hit the absolute highest level possible.
Keep in mind when that suggestion was made the skill costs were so borked that taking a rank or two in a non-combat skill meant completely gimping your character into near uselessness.
>>45917808
Most of the Ki stuff has tiny errors. Beam still mentions Magnitude, Beam Struggles still list size and magnitude, the Healing modifier uses the old Charge rules...
>>45918626
I only mentioned it because there were new votes on it.
>>45915639
My pibble's dislocated his hip more than once. It's painful to listen to.
>>45907147
I think the suggestion from the last thread of making defenses automatic is the best way to go, maybe with a cumulative penalty for each attack you've defended against that round.
>>45915091
STR builds definitely shouldn't rely on Strike moves to do consistent damage, and it would be nice if they were more interesting than just attacking every round. How about a "style" system? You purchase styles of martial arts which can be used in battle, and when you use a style that grants you bonuses and penalties, as well as maybe a few special moves. The book can provide a list of styles, and/or a point buy style creation system.
>>45920794
I can dig different styles for melee. Perhaps have them be more effective against certain defenses, like a style having a +2 to hit against evade but -2 in parry, one that is able to bypass a certain amount of armor but has limited damage, etc.
>>45920794
I think that introducing styles would just overcomplicate things and would lead to minmaxing. It's hard enough for the devs to make a solid Ki system that isn't overpowered, now you want to toss more monkey wrenches in?
Strength builds don't rely on Strike moves to do consistent damage. They can do that on their own. To make Strike Attacks more valuable than regular strength, you've got to tack on things like mods, Burst Values, etc, which would all cost Ki to make them affordable EXP-wise. Which a Strength build would be low on.
That said, the automatic defenses thing isn't a bad suggestion, but I really like the suggestion to tie it to Tiers better rather than have degrading defense. It makes Tiers more badass, for one thing.
>>45920891
>>45910630
Oozaru DN; we have general options for modifying transformations now, perhaps some listings could have small text boxes for exclusive options.
For example, a line at the bottom of the Oozaru entry could read something like "Custom: Decrease DN on control test by 2", so instead of the standard options you can instead lower the DN when you spend xp to upgrade the form.
>>45924236
We've got transformation modifiers now AND we have custom transformations moving in. The combination of those could mean good things.
>>45907147
Are Inorganic Androids supposed to be immune to all forms of Fatigue?
>>45925772
INORGANIC CONSTRUCT
• These types of androids are made completely from artificial parts. Their purely mechanical nature means that they are uneffected by fatigue. They have no Ki, and as such they cannot use the “Charge Ki” action and cannot be sensed. On a successful grapple, inorganic androids may use one Willpower to use the “Charge Ki” action using the target’s attributes and skills instead of their own, inflicting one level of fatigue on the target.
CYBORG
• Cyborgs are androids created by mechanically modifying a human. Their semi-mechanical nature means that they are uneffected by fatigue not directly related to the loss of health points. They have no Ki, and as such they cannot be sensed or use the “Charge Ki” action. Since they were once human, they may pick either of humanity’s racial traits in addition to this one.
In short: Yes. I guess that means that Suicidal 1 is a fairly decent Ki Attack modifier for them to pick up.
Is it just me, or should Cyborgs be able to charge Ki but ignore Fatigue, while Inorganics have to absorb Ki from other people? Every time I look at them, I think that they should be modified with that suggestion from the suggestions doc.
>>45926066
I still don't like the specification that cyborgs are always human. Does anyone else remember mechanical Freeza?
A GM could easily just say "replace one racial trait with cyborg" and fix it, but that isn't something that should be necessary.
>>45926066
[Suggestion: Alternate Android/Cyborg rules]
[Mid Priority]
I posted this in one of the /tg/ threads about a week ago and it was fairly well received. The topic of Android/Cyborg rules came up again today and one anon suggested I just repost here instead of on 4chan. So here we go, the alternate Android rules I thought up while bored at work. Oof, this is going to be a long one...
Inorganic Construct
This character is purely mechanical. They do not eat, sleep or breathe. They are immune to poisons, diseases, mind control, fatigue and majin/bio-android absorption. They have no ki and cannot be detected by the Sense Ki skill, nor can they use ki enhancements like Kaio-ken or the "Charge Ki" action. They cannot regain health points naturally or from ki based healing techniques. Instead they or an adjacent ally must perform repairs with a full round "Knowledge: Engineering" test, after which this character is healed a number of points equal to the number of successes from the test. This character must select one of the two power system traits.
Cyborg
This character is a living organism that has been mechanically enhanced. Their semi-mechanical nature makes them immune to fatigue not directly caused by the loss of health points. They have no ki and cannot be detected by the Sense Ki skill, nor can they use ki enhancements like Kaio-ken or the "Charge Ki" action. They replace one of their racial traits with Cyborg and may replace their other racial trait with a power system.
Power Systems
>>45926269
Energy Drain
This character has limited energy generation, but can absorb additional energy from external sources. This characters "Power Up" stat is cut in half and rounded up. Upon successfully parrying a ki attack this character gains a ki point for every success they had over the attackers roll, to a maximum of that abilities ki cost. On a successful grapple this character may force an opposed Ki Control test with their victim. If successful they perform the "Charge Ki" action using their roll from the test and their opponents attributes, their opponent then loses that number of points from their ki pool. If reduced to zero ki, the opponent takes a level of fatigue.
Infinity Generator
This character has an internal power supply that can provide limitless energy. Their "Power Up" stat is increased by 50% (rounded up). In addition, when their Ki pool is calculated they ignore their lowest ki stat and apply their highest twice.
The Energy Drain in this hypothetical version isn't dependent on spending Fate Points but at least the victim gets a chance to resist and getting hit with fatigue isn't a sure thing. Also, absorbing Ki blasts. That's pretty important. As for the Inf. Gen, it's a pretty simple concept, but still powerful, possibly too powerful. Though further balancing these out are the Androids stunted healing and that I specified that the Cyborg can either have a trait from their base race OR a power system, not both. Gotta keep that shit down to two traits.
It was also mentioned that the descriptions are kind of long, which may very well be true, but given the radical differences between bio-androids and their android/cyborg cousins I don’t think trying to cram all three onto a single page is a good idea. Finally, a big motivator for me to do this was Android #16, a purely mechanical being who couldn’t drain energy and is not possible with current rules. That’s a shame.
^That's the suggestions doc entry I mentioned.
Niiiceee.
>>45926457
hoping we will be able to improve Base Tier at some point
I think the best way to do it other than Awaken Potential is to implement training rules
I like the idea of playing a master Roshi type character but like the show he would quickly fall behind once other characters get Transformations
>>45926269
>>45926292
Hey, it's that suggestion I threw into the suggestions doc!
God damn its long.
>>45928329
There's really no point in boosting base tier. If you train enough, that should count as Awoken Potential, which, as a permanent transformation, becomes your new Base Tier.
>>45928329
Also, Roshi has transformations. The bulk he had as Jackie Chun and his 100% MAX power form.
>>45928929
MAX form should be the same thing as Freezas 100% form. They were exactly the same but performed by two characters of radically different power.
Also, how do you guys think the four witches technique would work?
>>45928982
A special Trait that Tien's clan has, allowing him to make a Multi-attack with two attacks without the negative effects.
Note that Goku countered by essentially Multi-attacking.
>>45929023
They disappear after taking a point of Fatigue.
>>45928929
True but you get the idea a normal Human all Roshis transformations were was him going all out
Like fighting at 80 percent power then moving up to 100
I don't want to be Tier 1 and transform to Tier 6 when i get serious
So the only real option is to improve Base Tier to remove some of the disparity
Which admittedly can be done with Awaken Potential fluffed as training
>>45928929
>>45928982
Funny you guys should mention that.
I dug this out of my waste bin, made it a while ago based on the Arcosian transformation listed in the suggestions doc.
>>45929120
The idea being that Freezas character sheet would list his transformations as:
First Form: T-3, +3 CHA/Deception
Second Form: T-2, +2 STR/Martial Arts
Third Form: T-1, +1 AGI/Evade
MAX Power
The only form Freeza had that seemed to drain his ki was is true form, and even then it only seemed to be when he was running at 100%. This was also made long before Dragonball super revealed another member of his race, so more information is likely incoming.
>>45929023
>>45929067
Three-Eyed Clan: Your character is a descendant of an alien race that settled on Earth long ago. They had special powers that have largely faded out due to their interbreeding with Earthlings.
Aptitudes: Ki, Social
Traits (pick two):
Three Eyes: Their three eyes give them insanely good vision. They receive +2 to Search and Perception checks and are immune to the Afterimage Technique.
Fission: Your rapid regenerative ability doesn’t function as a healing mechanism, but rather as a cloning mechanism. By taking one fatigue you are able to split yourself in to two to four simultaneous physical manifestations of yourself. While split, each of you equally splits your Ki Pool and Dice Pool, either in halves, in thirds, or quartering. When either of you take at least 10 damage from a single attack, that body returns to the original.
Multi-Arms: By performing a partial fission, you are able to create another set of arms, giving yourself *2 reactions or being able to perform one more attack that round, but not both. If used as part of a Multi-attack, the two pairs of arms count as two attacks without lowering the dice pool. These extra arms fade as soon as the user receives a point of Fatigue.
>>45929231
Well, Frost's transformations and such are pretty much identical to Frieza, though his final form is less "I'm losing power by being in this form" and more "I'm so fucking powerful I can't control how hard I hit people".
We'll have to see if he pops another transformation against Vegeta, but Frost just comes across as a more competent Frieza.
>>45929349
but anon tenshinhan is the strongest human
>>45929660
But can Tien survive sex with Vegeta or Goku?
>>45929716
>>45929716
tien would give power bottom a whole new meaning
>>45929495
Interesting that Frost went straight to form 3. Thus far there hasn't been any mention of him having something like Freezas second form.
Also, spoilers here, butgiven that he's a devious bastard and an almost exact copy of Freeza, him having the same or similar forms is meaningless in determining if those are typical of his species.
>>45930134
To be fair, the second form wasn't exactly going to cut it against Goku and Frost probably knew that, which was why he swapped to his 'assault mode'. It's possible that he uses his second form, if he has it, to rule over the pirate clans the way King Cold seemed to.
And, regarding the spoilers, he's a more competent Frieza, sure, but given that, of the three Freiza-types we've actually seen transform (four if you count Kuriza), they all seem to have very similar looks and forms with their transformations.
So, how would one stat Geeko from DB Evolution?
>>45930614
Low Charisma. Like, one dot. It's his dump stat. OG's actually got a pretty decent Charisma stat, he inspires trust and gets people to believe in him left or right. He's probably got like, three dots in it, while Hercule maxes it out. EG, though, is bullied, teased, and only gets respect from a few people. He just lacks that friendly aura that Goku has and comes off as more of a socially awkward whiner.
Middling Ki-stat. It's not that his Ki attacks are powerful, but he seemed to have a pretty decent Ki pool. Never ran dry. I'd say three or four dots in Ki, but leaning more towards three.
About two or three dots in Strength. He doesn't show a lot of impressiveness in that category. He grows fast, but his most impressive Strength feats come as Oozaru, the demon sealed in the eclipse, which is Tier 2 or 3. He's definitely superhuman, but that pack he wears for Roshi is probably only two or three hundred pounds.
Four Agility. His agility is actually kind of impressive! Sure, he doesn't get a whole lot of chance to show his chops, largely dodging clumsy melee attacks, but he's nimble and fast. This is probably his best stat.
Three or four TOU. He seems to take damage pretty well. He's not the toughest guy in the movie, but he's up there.
Two or three Int: He's definitely smarter than OG. Or, at least, more educated. He may lack Goku's instinctive ability to copy and perfect Ki attacks, but he still learns a difficult technique over the course of a few hours.
I'd say maybe two or three dots in Evade, one in Parry, two dots in Martial Arts, two dots in Ki Control, a few dots in some Knowledge skills, maybe a dot or two in Block, and one dot in Search.
His Kamehameha Wave is more of a Blast than a Beam. Blast, 0 damage amp, 2 Charge, 1 B.V., 0 Piercing, 5 Min. Tension (apparently UST works for the Tension gauge, who knew?), and 2-4 Ki to use.
>>45929231
>First Form: T-3, +3 CHA/Deception
>Second Form: T-2, +2 STR/Martial Arts
>Third Form: T-1, +1 AGI/Evade
>MAX Power
Actually, I think according to the wording of >>45929120 the higher tier the form, the FEWER bonus dice it would have, and the lowest tier form would have the highest bonus dice.
>>45930267
We have no idea how many transformations Cooler or King Cold had, or what they were like. Given Froze is an alternate Freeza, them sharing types and numbers makes sense.
>>45933179
Didn't Cooler outright say he had one more transformation than Frieza did?
>>45933196
I don't recall, actually. He was likely referring to his super transformation from coolers revenge.
>>45932763
>the higher tier the form, the FEWER bonus dice it would have, and the lowest tier form would have the highest bonus dice.
Correct. The listings are accurate, but poorly formatted. For example:
Freezas base form has a tier of 4. His first form is a Tier minus 3 transformation bringing him back down to 1 (hence the T-3, which really should have a space in it for T -3).
Because it lowers his tier by three levels, he gets three bonus die in a stat and three bonus die in a skill. The idea there is that having 1 bonus die is better than having 1 more tier. It makes him really good at one thing by lower his effectiveness at other things.
>>45933279
Shit, clarification:
I kept choosing the stats and skills so they would be connected. They wouldn't have to be.
+1 CHA and +1 Dec would mean that all CHA checks get the +1, but since deception is a CHA skill it'll get a total of +2, way better than having 1 higher tier.
>>45933279
"It is stated in an issue of Weekly Shonen Jump that Cooler does not need to use lower forms like Frieza's first three forms because Cooler can fully control his power in his true form."
>>45906988
Just posted an idea in suggestion docs.
What you're seeing now is the thread's normal state.
>>45906988
Right now, the system doesn't do a very good job of capturing the feel of the show. In DBZ, fights are the crux of the thing, and take up the majority of the runtime/pagespace, with back-and-forth, and drama. Right now, since anything good is a OHK and anything that isn't a OHK isn't good, it feel more like a noncombat game that occasionally stops for two PF wizards exchanging save-or-die spells for one or two turns until someone fails their save. Not only is that a boring model for combat that's been played out for a decade, but it's the exact opposite of every non-squash-match fight we've seen in the show/manga.
>>45935301
What would you suggest be changed?
>>45935484
There are a number of options
>Tension as a softcap on damage that can be done per attack (with an accompanying buff on how fast tension can increase.) E.G. once you've done (tensionX2) damage to an opponent in a turn, all damage from you to that target is halved. This could both slow down OHK, and represent the universal tendency of fighters in DBZ to test each other and hold back until the shit hits the fan.
>Reactions are more plenteful and reduce the number of successes increasing the damage of an attack. Lower tiered weenies would still get squashed, but equal-tiered opponents would be unable to OHK somebody without either getting a really lucky hit, grossly outclassing them in the hit vs defense department, or spending WAY too much on their Ki Attack.
The problem is ALSO that Hp doesn't really scale, but offense does. At early tiers getting the OHK first attack is hard and a major investment. At higher tiers, it's trivial.
>Work under the assumption that everyone is gonna be a OHK weenie, and just bump the HP
>Total rework of the damage system, moving away from the HP system, and possibly using the wound system from Wulin, where instead of having a set number of HP based on Str+Tou, you actually roll Str+Tou against a scaling DC based on the total amount of damage the attack did. Failuire by an expectable ammount means fatigue (which will impact subsequent Str+Tou rolls,) and failure by a such a huge margin that it's vastly unlikely to happen the first turn means being taken out of the fight. This means that prodding your opponent with weaker attacks to build fatigue, then finishing them with a super move, as is done in the show, is mechanically encouraged. This also means that you can get hit with an attack and no-sell it, which basically doesn't happen under the current HP rules. Pic-Related, it's SO DBZ to No-Sell an attack. This is my favorite solution, but would require the most reworking of any of them.
>>45935728
>>Total rework of the damage system, moving away from the HP system, and possibly using the wound system from Wulin, where instead of having a set number of HP based on Str+Tou, you actually roll Str+Tou against a scaling DC based on the total amount of damage the attack did. Failuire by an expectable ammount means fatigue (which will impact subsequent Str+Tou rolls,) and failure by a such a huge margin that it's vastly unlikely to happen the first turn means being taken out of the fight. This means that prodding your opponent with weaker attacks to build fatigue, then finishing them with a super move, as is done in the show, is mechanically encouraged. This also means that you can get hit with an attack and no-sell it, which basically doesn't happen under the current HP rules. Pic-Related, it's SO DBZ to No-Sell an attack. This is my favorite solution, but would require the most reworking of any of them.
This is actually a really awesome idea.
>>45935728
That's pretty good.
>>45935728
I like the idea, but I think that people would still be encouraged to use super moves and nothing else since those would build fatigue better than weaker moves.
>>45938679
With tension, they may not have access to those super moves right away.
>>45935728
I like that reworking. Sort of feminist me of how damage works in Mutants and Masterminds.
>>45938828
For fucks sake, my phone turned reminds into feminist...
>>45938846
:^)
>>45935301
With the upcoming nerfing of Strength and Charge, coupled with the devs promising to rework defense (with more reactions being a priority), and incoming Armor to increase damage soak, some of these complaints might be fixed in the next version.
Note that these complaints really only work around optimized OHKO builds. Against more average builds, fights can last quite a few rounds. See the tournament: Yes, several optimized builds did end a fight in less than three rounds, but others lasted for over ten rounds of combat. Pre-STR*3, a pair of physical fighters ended up slugging it out for quite a few rounds, two mixed fighters ended up throwing fireballs at each other and chipping away at their health there, and a Ki specialist vs. a stealth user had a game of cat and mouse that ended up pretty close, if I recall correctly.
That said, I'd hesitate to offer any big defensive fixes until we (Finally) see how equipment turns out. Even just an incomplete list showing off armor would be good, since we know how weapons work. However, if you're passionate about your fixes, throw them in the Suggestions doc and see how they go there. In the meantime, look at some of the other suggestions there, there's already a reworking of hit points that's been suggested. See if you like that any.
>>45939443
>>That said, I'd hesitate to offer any big defensive fixes until we (Finally) see how equipment turns out. Even just an incomplete list showing off armor would be good, since we know how weapons work.
I don't know that it matters how the first draft of armor affects combat. If armor is good enough that every character wants to use it, that doesn't model the show, where armor is basically completely useless by the battle with Frieza. Or at least, there's no indication that it does any good and the characters themselves don't wear it even when they have the option, except Vegeta and that's just what he's used to wearing in battle. So if it's actually helping solve the defense issue, it will need to be changed because armor shouldn't be a significant source of defense in a DBZ system.
The more I think about it, the more I like the wound system outlined here >>45935728
. It has synergy with the tension system, it effectively means higher tier characters have both scaling offense and defense, and it can lead to cool stuff like an enemy who is so powerful he doesn't even need to defend against the heroes' attacks. I don't even think it would take that much to rework the damage system to accommodate it.
Also, while I'm brainstorming, I think tension probably needs to scale with the number of combatants. The more people who are in a battle, the faster it's going to rise, and the less meaningful tension restrictions become. As it is, I think the values are a little too low even for 1 on 1 fights.
>>45939659
You're forgetting how often Fate Points get used in play. Even in a 1v1 match, they're likely to hit 15 tension in three or four rounds if you've got opponents using them liberally.
>>45939766
That's what I mean. Tension restrictions need to be increased, not the rate at which tension increases, because as it is everyone can use their strongest abilities after a few rounds. Battles in DBZ are typically much more drawn out.
>>45939814
>Battles in DBZ are typically much more drawn out.
For the sake of a game I don't think drawing battles out for a long time is a GOOD thing, however I do agree with the sentiments that the system, as it is now, is a nigh failure at emulating the source material.
>>45939814
This is where the difference between playing online and playing in real life comes in. In real life, the game might move fast, but online the average turn takes about five minutes to complete, usually due to people typing out their actions and not being just "I throw a punch."
A long, drawn-out combat isn't a bad thing, but when a single combat gets drawn out for over an hour, that's something else entirely.
>>45939872
>>45939867
Maybe I'm looking at this differently, because to me a single combat against a very powerful foe should be the narrative climax of an arc in a DBZ game and should probably take at least a session or two. That's how every single major arc in the show ends - a long fight with the big bad. You'd have to break that up with dialog sections or cutaways to NPCs or something, but I'd want it to feel as epic as the battles in the show were, and that means it shouldn't be over in 5-10 rounds. That's why I feel like battles are too short. Of course, battles against regular enemies shouldn't take nearly as long.
>>45939996
So close, yet so far.
Problem is, until Villain rules come out (which is supposed to be Soon), villains are built off of player rules unless the GM gets creative. This ranges from Saibamen to Frieza-types, and there's not enough difference from Tier to Tier for them to act differently from the PCs.
Take a look at the Tournament's Lord Vod fight a few months ago. At four Tiers ahead of the PCs, they killed him in one round and one turn. He didn't start to become an issue for them until he hit Tier 7, was granted more reactions, and got more attacks per round.
>>45935728
>>45939443
>>45939659
If weapons an armor had tiers representing their quality, independent of the character using them, that could solve the whole "armor useless after freeza" thing (though the saiyans did use armor for the cell games)
Perhaps tiered gear wouldn't be effective against enemies that out tier it. It could be possible, though difficult, to make or find stuff that can remain useful against stronger foes.
>>45940594
There's an idea. I was thinking that designing equipment largely for low levels would also be a thing. Like, with how weapons work, they give bonus damage at the cost of success caps. That's great for someone who's low tier and doesn't have a lot of dots. Less so for Legendary Majin Cyborg Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 4 Full Potential Unlock 100% MAX Power guys.
>>45938679
The idea isn't necessarily to keep people from using their best moves, it's to prevent everyone from opening with a OHK, while not removing the threat of a OHK completel. Stopping people from using their best attack is a much larger challenge that doesn't necessarily need to happen, but keeping the game from turning into PF-Wizard-SoD-Battle is achievable and important.
>>45940654
Well, openings aside, blueper Saiyan Goku did get dropped by an energy blaster to the back. I'm thinking maybe that was a very rare, very expensive high tier blaster.
Maybe it had bonuses against high tier enemies. Maybe it counted their tier as being lower than it really was.
>>45940722
Maybe Super sucks.
>>45909046
Bastard
>>45940704
Problem is, changing the amount of Tension or the rate at which it's earned doesn't do a lot for that.
If I sink 5 dots into Ki and 5 dots into Ki Blast, then create a 5 B.V. attack at 0 Tension and 5 Ki cost (which I'd open a fight having), that's only 12 EXP and it's essentially a OHKO. Ten successes ends up being 75 damage before soak. At the least, my opponent's TOU would absorb 5 damage, one from each hit, meaning still 7 Fatigue. At the most, it would absorb 25 damage, 5 from each hit, meaning that I only do 50 damage. Which is still 5 Fatigue and half the current max hit points.
What's more, I can do it again in the very next round.
...Actually, what is the current max hit points a player can have? I've been thinking it's a hundred, but the wording is weird.
>Every character begins with a baseline of 10 HP. For every additional rank of Strength or Toughness that your character gains your character also gains 10 HP.
So does that mean that the first two dots count, meaning that a character with only one dot in STR and TOU has 30 HP and the max is 110 HP? Or that those two equal up to ten hit points and then you count every dot AFTER, making the max HP 90?
>>45940937
Yeah that wording is kinda' off. I probably just edited the number without really looking at it. I was thinking 100 HP but given that the old max was 50 HP that'd mean that simply doubling the amount of HP granted per rank of Toughness or Strength would bring you to 90 HP.
Oh well, I'm really enjoying this Wulin DN idea anyway. It should also be noted that I'm looking at completely changing how reactions function in combat, granting players the ability to react to every individual attack leveled against them by an opponent as well as making Block a reaction.
I'll play around with that for a bit before committing to a wholesale change of how the core combat mechanics of the game functions, but the Wulin model looks pretty neat.
>>45941268
Blue Goku can't melt steel beams
>>45940740
That happened in Revival of F too, you know.
Are the custom transformation rules going to use experience? Can a character just spend xp to gain a new form without having to wait for the GM to grant them one?
Would tier zero transformations be possible? A form that grants bonus die, but not a tier?
>>45942997
>Would tier zero transformations be possible? A form that grants bonus die, but not a tier?
You mean like Kaioken or Oozaru?
>Are the custom transformation rules going to use experience? Can a character just spend xp to gain a new form without having to wait for the GM to grant them one?
Honestly, I'd have to say that you'd need to talk to your GM about that. Otherwise, it could lead to someone going "Oh, by the way, my character is a Zarbon who already has the Monster transformation, putting them at Tier 2" while everyone else just has the defaults.
The approach that the devs seem to be taking is that transformations should be a Big Deal, and that GMs should grant them only at special moments or after a supreme amount of training. Except for Nameks and Friezas.
>>45943187
> Except for Nameks and Friezas
I still think they shouldn't start with all that stuff. In Freezas case, I'm liking those rules up top (though that wall'o'text could be broken up).
But yeah, forgot Oozaru and kaio-ken didn't increase tiers.
In Zarbons case, think that'd be a zero tier form that drops his STR and boosts his CHA? Assuming the monstrous form is his natural state.
>>45943390
Great Namek should probably be an optional trait. Like, give Namekians three traits, they get to choose two. Wacky Wavy Extendable Arms, Regeneration, and Great Namek, allowing access to the Great Namek transformation (which swiftly becomes obsolete).
You get people like Piccolo who can do all three, true, but he's an outstanding member of his race. Like, in the top percentile of Namekians.
>>45943556
I want mutant spawning Nameeeeks
>>45943556
What if Great Namek is something that has to be learned?
(I always preferred calling them noodly arms)
>>45943556
Really, the more I think about it and the more I look at my Triclops writeup, I think most races should have three traits, but get the choice of only two. That'd make the pages really cramped, though, unless the iconic members used were shrunk a bit.
Maybe Humans get an Iron-Willed trait that allows them to double their Willpower.
Saiyans get the same Enhanced Senses trait that the Beastmen get.
Half Saiyans just get that wider choice variety.
No clue what Beastmen should get.
Arcosians get the same Made of Iron trait that Humans get.
Majins get the old Turn to Chocolate! trait.
Androids get the power supply choices mentioned in the Suggestions doc.
>>45943620
I blame that trait on Piccolo being a demon at the time.
>>45943632
It seemed like a special subrace for them. Learning it makes sense, I guess, as an extension of their status as Wacky Wavy Extendable Arms Men.
>>45942997
Custom transformations should absolutely not be under player control.
>>45943733
DBO may have had sillycthings like all humans being part Saiyan but I did like Nameks all going great and Poko Priests. Pure Majin was Pure stupid through.
I think that this game is fine for race traits beside not having mutant spawning or Kais.
>>45943919
Especially given that, like. DBO is only 216 years after DBZ. Meaning Vegeta, Goku, Gohan, Goten, Pan, Bra, and Trunks must've really slept around. Like. A lot. Day in and day out hip thrusting.
>>45943984
>>45943919
Once, a long time ago, I campaigned for different Namekian clans. Dragon-clan and Warrior-clan, with Piccolo and Slug's Demon Clans sitting in with the other demons.
I never really sat down to work out differences, though. It was just me going "This should happen. Devs, make it happen." without actually putting in any work on tossing in balancing ideas.
That said, I like the idea of a lot of the DBO classes and such, but balancing that kind of thing can be a headache. If you suggested we do it in the current system, I'd say something along the lines of, like. Make one character, then give it a warped version of the Fission skill, where the character spawns a version of itself that has a quarter of its health. Then use the original stats for the summoned monster and the quarter-health version for the summoner.
mahnamahna
>>45944145
On clans; I briefly thought about suggesting the option to choose a martial school such as the crane or turtle schools. Abilities used by those schools could be purchased at a discount, or even exclusive in some cases (MAX Power for Turtle, Four Witches for Crane, other stuff for other schools chosen)
Thinking back on it I don't know if it'd work for this game. But if it had been implemented, the Warrior Clan and Dragon Clan could have worked perfectly as additional choices for Namekians.
>>45934764
This is a Super Thread.
>>45945110
I think the different schools and clans would honestly work better for a game that had been built with classes in mind. Like, it'd be awesome, but to implement it for this game would probably require scrapping a chunk of it.
The big trouble would be like, balancing racial bonuses with class bonuses. If the racial traits give you massive powers, then you'd have to make sure that they didn't negate class feats or become completely overpowered by class feats.
>>45926269
I just wanted to point out that when Freeza was a cyborg they could still detect his ki.
Maybe they only get ki sense immunity if they replace their second racial trait with a power system. Hell, Freeza may have still been able to charge ki normally. Perhaps both of those qualities should be listed as part of the power systems.
>>45945507
It may be an issue of just how much of them was cyborgified. Do we know how much of 17 and 18 was replaced by machinery? For Frieza, it looks like his upper body, with most of the important bits, was intact. His head didn't get that damaged in the fight with Goku, so the metal bits there might just be reinforcements for a seriously weakened skull structure rather than replacement.
>>45945588
I think in the anime they got like terminator skeletons going on
>>45945588
Keep in mind Frieza was already a very powerful fighter on his own, while as far as I remember 17 and 18 were just two orphans Gero found somewhere. So Frieza could generate his own ki, while I think it's likely the androids weren't really generating ki at all but just simulating it with some kind of internal power source, hence why they couldn't be sensed.
Mostly there are no classes because I feel like they wouldn't really add terribly too much of value while potentially overcomplicating character creation.
Mechanically speaking Races effectively function as classes, in my view. I'm not opposed to giving more variety insofar as >>45943733 's suggestions of adding more racial traits and having them only pick two, though.
On the short list of things people have mentioned that I'm looking into:
>How to not take a punch like a bitch and get OHKO'd on turn one
>Cyborgs being of other races and not just human
>Great Namek as a thing even really.
But yeah, I'd rather not get classes involved if I can avoid it.I'm hoping the joke works but I don't know how well it works over the internet.
>>45947390
In the end, all conflicts can be narrowed down to class conflicts.
>>45947390
>How to not take a punch like a bitch and get OHKO'd on turn one
There's been a few elegant suggestions. Personally, my favorites are to boost TOU slightly and take Charge and do the Burst Value thing that's been mentioned a few times with it. You've mentioned a possibility and there's a good writeup in the doc for two possibilities.
>Cyborgs being of other races and not just human
Cyborgs being other races can either be done by getting rid of the 'human' modifier in the Cyborg description and making it so that they still only get that trait. Whatever happens with them, a Cyborg probably loses all of that race's natural transformations, since the parts probably wouldn't move right to accommodate size changing or body warping.
>Great Namek as a thing even really.
Not seeing a problem with it. It's not like Namekians are the only race to start with transformations, Saiyans, some Half-Saiyans, and Arcosians get to do that as well. They take longer than Arcosian Second Forms (but one turn shorter than the Oozaru), are Tier 2 (higher than Oozaru, lower than Arcosian. Oozaru should be Tier 2 as well, imo.) so they've only got 10% more chance to succeed, and their gimmick is that they lose Agility and gain Strength. Unlike other transformations (save Kaioken) they take Fatigue when they exit, but they don't have a Tension score needed to transform.
Really, it's kind of balanced. It's not situational like Oozaru, but it's slower than the Arcosian Tier 2, and you get punished fairly heavily when you leave it. I wouldn't get rid of it entirely, but if you do choose to expand Racial traits, maybe make it an optional one.
>>45945121
And this is a super thread that has ascended past a super thread. Or you could just call this a super thread 2.
>>45948299
Cyborg Nameeeks. Cyborg Beasts. Yeeees.
>>45950714
>Cyborg men
>Saiborg men
>Saiba men
Saibamen confirmed for playable race, social/CHA aptitudes
>>45940937
>Problem is, changing the amount of Tension or the rate at which it's earned doesn't do a lot for that.
I wasn't talking about the tension, I was talking about the proposed wound-reworking of damage.
>>45935728
>Total rework of the damage system, moving away from the HP system, and possibly using the wound system from Wulin, where instead of having a set number of HP based on Str+Tou, you actually roll Str+Tou against a scaling DC based on the total amount of damage the attack did. Failuire by an expectable ammount means fatigue (which will impact subsequent Str+Tou rolls,) and failure by a such a huge margin that it's vastly unlikely to happen the first turn means being taken out of the fight. This means that prodding your opponent with weaker attacks to build fatigue, then finishing them with a super move, as is done in the show, is mechanically encouraged. This also means that you can get hit with an attack and no-sell it, which basically doesn't happen under the current HP rules. Pic-Related, it's SO DBZ to No-Sell an attack. This is my favorite solution, but would require the most reworking of any of them.
THAT is specifically designed to decrease the ubiquity of OHK, while leaving it as a potential, if unlikely, threat.
Turning up tension is more of a topical ointment.
>>45950714
See, Gero was a cyborg (technically) and he had ki draining palms. It's very important that Namekians not have that option, on account of their noodly arms and extended grab distance.
It'd be a pretty broken combination.
Which is why the power systems being traits is a good idea. You replace one racial trait with Cyborg (immunity to non damage fatigue), then you have to replace another trait with Energy Drain. No more room for noodle arms.
>>45951785
I'd class Android 20 differently from 17 and 18. The only parts left of him was his brain, while 18 was human enough to get fisted by Krillin and have a kid.
>>45951785
Yeah, and then bio androids take that combination just fine.
>>45950750
I have no idea what the Saibamen are canonically (plants?), but if you insisted I could make one as an Alien, I'd just make them as Androids.
>>45952860
couldn't* rather
>>45952860
Saibamen are plants/biotechnology.
>>45952918
Android's on the money then. Bio-android doesn't seem quite right though; I guess "Cyborg" with the Beastmen's "Natural Weapons" trait should do the trick?
...I wonder what being a PC Saibaman would even entail?
>>45953010
Well, the English dub implied that they could turn back into seeds. Like, the six on Earth were the only six that survived the last fight Nappa brought them into.
Probably low INT, whatever happened.
>>45953025
>Well, the English dub implied that they could turn back into seeds. Like, the six on Earth were the only six that survived the last fight Nappa brought them into.
Dude! I wanna see Saibamen listed under Equipment now!
>>45953064
Well, given that they're supposed to get weaker or stronger depending on the quality of the ground they're planted in, that'd also give an excuse for them to have higher or lower stats.
...And, again, that was a dub-only line. But Saibamen should totally be Equipment. Probably fairly expensive, because you're bringing a new fighter in, but they'd only have, like. Twelve dots total. A generic energy ball attack and a Burning attack refluffed as being Acid. You could probably make the ones from the show with less than 400 EXP.
>>45953064
>>45953122
And here we go. One Saibaman.
They should probably be pretty cheap to buy, if they're affordable. I wouldn't want to pay the cost every time.
>>45953432
Wait... so Cell Jr. and Saibamen aren't that different at all! I wanna see them play together in fanart. And also start a Bio Android kingdom featuring Saibas.
>>45953432
Wow, DBO really expanded the number of available Saibamen types.
I guess this goes to show what they'd spawn as if planted in other environments?
>>45953906
The big difference between Saibamen and Cell Jr.s is their power. Basically, it seems like the average Saibaman is around Raditz's level, with some being weaker and some being stronger. The Cell Jrs, meanwhile, are as strong as Cell.
>>45953939
I wonder how strong Saibamen would be if they were planted in an area>>45953910
that could handle the Tree of Might..
>>45954035
You'd probably have to apply the Legendary Super Saiyan transformation.
>>45954035
Better idea, get some saibaman and tree of might seeds then splice their genetics together and see what happens!
>>45954135
YESSSSS
>>45906988
So, when a Majin uses Amorphous Body, are they able to exceed the usual limit of 5 in a stat?
>>45954383
5 is the max score in any stat. If you go over that, you just get Bonus Dice which, while they give you a larger dice pool in that stat, don't give you any further benefits.
>>45954463
That's what my gamer/game-design instincts are telling me, but nowhere in the document does it actually SAY this. The only limitation on stat size is simply the fact that there is no way to permanently buy mode than 5 in a stat. It SHOULD say this, but it doesn't. Perhaps someone should add this to the suggestions document.
>>45954135
>>45954211
You'd likely end up with a large saibaman with most of the power of all the living things on the planet where it was grown.
Like a Super Spirit Bomb in physical form.
>>45954674
Saibaman kaiju?
>>45954644
Yeah, I only remember it because in a thread from a few months ago the devs said that the absolute max number of dice you'd roll normally is ten. Five for attributes, five for skills. And it's the bonus dice that make the difference.
So, Toriyama made a short manga called Dragon Boy, that was sort of an early draft of Dragonball. The main character, Tanton, was similar to young Goku in a lot of ways, but instead of having a monkey tail he had dragon wings.
We could have had dragon-based saiyans.
Wonder how you'd stat them.
>>45954778
Probably be more fire based
If I use a Burst move and hit with a ki attack more than once, do it's special effects apply more than once?
i.e. a Strobing Solar Flare
>>45956752
No.
bump of life
>>45956752
I don't see why not, unless the rules specifically say they don't.
That said, that'd be a waste of a Blinding Attack. If they've got the Perception Test passed on the first one, then they can just keep it up to block the others.
So, I'm reading the Fridge Horror section for DBZA in TVTropes and some of this is just cringingly stupid.
>When Frieza tells Vegeta that he'll send him crying to his mommy, Vegeta replies that she's dead. To which Frieza replies, I know; meaning not only his father died at his hands, but his mother as well.
I'm just. Amazed.
>>45960454
TVTropes is generally horrible.
>>45960499
no kidding
>>45935728
I like that. Yall like that? I like that.
>>45964506
I don't think it works. Here's why.
First, damage is already getting nerfed, reducing the need for further nerfing. OHKOs are always going to be a risk, but with Charge not being a multiplier and with STR going down in damage, the ease of getting one off is lessened greatly.
Second, dealing damage should raise Tension, Tension shouldn't be acting as a damage cap. I shouldn't punch a guy for four damage, then go "Wait, we're only at two Tension. Guess I only did two damage." It gets worse when you're about to finish off a low-level opponent with your Big Bang Attack, but because the Tension's only 10, your 40 damage is being cut down to 20 and the guy's alive for another turn.
Third, 'testing' each other can be just as easily done with the way Tension already limits attacks. You do a few tiny Ki blasts or punches and use your Perception or Sense Ki to try to figure out where your opponent is in relation to you. Not only does that fit the show, it's good roleplaying rather than enforced roll playing. If you're the arrogant type who goes full bore right off the bat, then you can skip that.
Fourth: Reactions are already going to be more plentiful. This is not some grand idea, it's something that Regalia said would happen days ago.
Fifth, successes should NEVER be reduced except by outside forces. If you're going to cut successes down, then why bother getting them anyway? It would be better to reduce dice thrown.
Sixth: Your pic related is what happens when someone's TOU is high enough to negate the damage dealt. There's already a large combat chapter set up. Telling the devs to scrap it in favor of another game system's combat altogether is a pretty dick move, especially when all that's needed is more defense. Which the devs know and acknowledge, and are already working to solve.
>>45964909
Also, there's a ton of talk about one-shotting your opponent with a single attack. While that's a grand use of pathos, you can go through the Tournament logs and see that a one-hit knockout has happened once in the entire history of the game. And that's with multiple builds aimed at getting OHKOs.
The rhetoric is flawed and it comes across as the people making the complaints having one or two outstanding instances and insisting that it's the norm.
>>45964909
I think people are latching onto the second part and not the first. And Regalia said he liked the idea.
>>45964909
>First, damage is already getting nerfed, reducing the need for further nerfing. OHKOs are always going to be a risk, but with Charge not being a multiplier and with STR going down in damage, the ease of getting one off is lessened greatly.
That deals with the "lvl 1" problem, but not with the scaling problem, unless they're adding a way for HP to scale with tier.
>Second, dealing damage should raise Tension, Tension shouldn't be acting as a damage cap. I shouldn't punch a guy for four damage, then go "Wait, we're only at two Tension. Guess I only did two damage." It gets worse when you're about to finish off a low-level opponent with your Big Bang Attack, but because the Tension's only 10, your 40 damage is being cut down to 20 and the guy's alive for another turn.
Tension was a nice idea, actually it was MY idea, but it didn't accomplish the goal it was intended to accomplish.
>Third, 'testing' each other can be just as easily done with the way Tension already limits attacks. You do a few tiny Ki blasts or punches and use your Perception or Sense Ki to try to figure out where your opponent is in relation to you. Not only does that fit the show, it's good roleplaying rather than enforced roll playing. If you're the arrogant type who goes full bore right off the bat, then you can skip that.
Again, tension didn't do what it was supposed to do. Also, you Know how many times that happens in the source material, where someone skips the "testing each other" phase? I can think of ONE in the entire series.
To be continued...
>>45964909
>Fourth: Reactions are already going to be more plentiful. This is not some grand idea, it's something that Regalia said would happen days ago.
That just means you always get a save versus the fight-ending spell.... I mean attack. That's not a solution, that's 3.PF. Reactions SHOULD be more plentiful, But that's not enough.
>Fifth, successes should NEVER be reduced except by outside forces. If you're going to cut successes down, then why bother getting them anyway? It would be better to reduce dice thrown.
Yeah, god forbid a PC/Villian's efforts to reduce the effectiveness of their opponent actually reduce the effectiveness of their opponent, what an out-there idea.
>Sixth: Your pic related is what happens when someone's TOU is high enough to negate the damage dealt.
So, given a max TOU of 5..... once or twice at tier 1, when the attacker rolls REALLY bad, and never again at higher tiers? That pic was between a SSJ and a Perfect Biodroid, which with the rules as they are now has a slightly higher probability of happening than my fingers quantum tunneling through the keyboard as I type.
>There's already a large combat chapter set up. Telling the devs to scrap it in favor of another game system's combat altogether is a pretty dick move,
Yes, this is why I put THAT suggestion LAST, because it would take by far the most balancing. Also, I think you're mistaking four proposed individual fixes, for a set of simulfixes. It was more of a pick-n-mix of fixes.
>>45964962
>Also, there's a ton of talk about one-shotting your opponent with a single attack.
Save the Lord Vod fight, the game's only really been tested at low tiers. That's like only playing 3.PF from levels 1-3, and saying it's perfectly fine. Assuming most players will reach 10d10 in their attack-die-pool by tier 2, and the absolute max of 110 HP with 5Tou, the chances of OHK's get exponentially more relevant between equals as tiers go up. This is NOT representative of what we see in DBZ
>>45964909
>There's already a large combat chapter set up.
Sort of, but we already know that the HP+Defenses vs Damage+Attack is already wonky at Tier 1, and set to increase the problem at higher tiers. We're already going to have to playtest a bunch to balance it again. With that really be quicker than scrapping HP, and making a table that matches statistically expected attack damage results at a given tier with DC's for expected Str+Tou results at similar tiers? Set that to X fatigue, where X is the fatigue you want an average attack between equals to do, and scale from there (I'd probably suggest 2 fatigue for the X, but that's just me.) It wouldn't be scrapping the entire combat chapter, just the HP rules, and creating a DC table for Damage-to-Soak-DC
>>45965798
>That deals with the "lvl 1" problem, but not with the scaling problem, unless they're adding a way for HP to scale with tier.
With more reactions coming in, people get hit less and deflect more damage. With the Strength and Charge multipliers getting removed, the max damage a any attack can do is fifteen damage. It's just that B.V.s deal that damage more than once, but Burst Values only activate if you've got enough successes past their defense roll to deal that damage.
>Tension was a nice idea, actually it was MY idea, but it didn't accomplish the goal it was intended to accomplish.
Not a rebuttal for that argument.
>Again, tension didn't do what it was supposed to do. Also, you Know how many times that happens in the source material, where someone skips the "testing each other" phase? I can think of ONE in the entire series.
The Androids didn't do a whole lot of 'testing' in any of their fights. Vegeta didn't bother testing Cui, Dodoria, and Zarbon. He played around a bit, but it wasn't testing. Guldo and Recoome didn't 'test' Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin. Krillin and Piccolo went full bore against the Saibamen. Trunks didn't test Frieza. Vegeta didn't test Android 19. Trunks didn't test Imperfect Cell. Majin Vegeta didn't do a whole lot of testing in general.
Not gonna cover most of Buu's fights, since he got 'tested' as Fat Buu and most of the others just followed from there.
>>45966924
>That just means you always get a save versus the fight-ending spell.... I mean attack. That's not a solution, that's 3.PF. Reactions SHOULD be more plentiful, But that's not enough.
A fight between two characters rolling 7d10 and 8d10 respectively that lasted for eleven rounds. Including ki attacks. Anyone saying that the game's combat is filled with OHKOs hasn't actually played. ESPECIALLY with the two damage multipliers being done away with/reduced. Again, this means that the MAXIMUM DAMAGE that any attack can do, 10d10, not counting bonus dice, is fifteen damage. If that goes against someone who has 5 TOU, that's only ten damage taken. And, once again, we're getting armor, which will reduce the damage further.
>Yeah, god forbid a PC/Villian's efforts to reduce the effectiveness of their opponent actually reduce the effectiveness of their opponent, what an out-there idea.
Did you miss the 'except by outside forces' part? I think you missed that part in your attempt to force some biting sarcasm in there.
>So, given a max TOU of 5..... once or twice at tier 1, when the attacker rolls REALLY bad, and never again at higher tiers? That pic was between a SSJ and a Perfect Biodroid, which with the rules as they are now has a slightly higher probability of happening than my fingers quantum tunneling through the keyboard as I type.
Bearing in mind that Perfect Cell is as high above him as Frieza is above Bulma, and the only time Vegeta did any damage in that fight was when Cell allowed it to happen? It's almost like Vegeta either had shitty rolls or Cell had insanely high stats compared to him, or both.
>>45966948
>Yes, this is why I put THAT suggestion LAST, because it would take by far the most balancing. Also, I think you're mistaking four proposed individual fixes, for a set of simulfixes. It was more of a pick-n-mix of fixes.
Actually, I took it as two proposed fixes, but decided to address them at the same time. Though you doing all that does explain why you're acting like I sunk your battleship rather than offered my opinions on why your fixes wouldn't work. Seriously, unclench.
>Save the Lord Vod fight, the game's only really been tested at low tiers. That's like only playing 3.PF from levels 1-3, and saying it's perfectly fine. Assuming most players will reach 10d10 in their attack-die-pool by tier 2, and the absolute max of 110 HP with 5Tou, the chances of OHK's get exponentially more relevant between equals as tiers go up. This is NOT representative of what we see in DBZ
Granted, the high tier's chances of getting a lot of damage will be increased, but so will the high tier's defenses. And you might decry it as "save or die", but you can't deny that a lot of the fights revolve around parrying or blocking attacks rather than taking them. And with Block becoming a reaction, the chances of someone's successes+TOU being equal to their successes+STR or KI is pretty high, meaning that you'll get your scenes where someone tanks an energy blast with only light scratches in return. And that IS representative of the series, since you have attacks that blow an enemy to Kingdom Come when they can't bitchslap it away, dodge it, or just block it and counterattack.
>>45966701
I can understand that. But here's the thing. We already know that Block is becoming a reaction. With damage multipliers being removed, that means TOU is no longer going to be overwhelmed.
The max naked damage an attack can do is 15 points. The max damage Block can soak is 15 points. There's still bonus dice and modifiers to be considered, but those simple changes have fixed the game's balance.
>>45966970
>>45966948
>>45966924
I don't get why you're so opposed to the Wulin-like system.
>>45967133
I'm honestly not that opposed to it, but I am opposed to the idea that we absolutely MUST switch to it if the game's going to be at all like DBZ because otherwise we'll see nothing but OHKOs. I think we're already on the right path. Some small tweaks, which are already being made, and we'll be there.
If the devs want to move to it, that's fine. But I think that they'll save a lot of work by just getting rid of damage multipliers and making Block a reaction. Without attacks that are always assured to double-digit damage no matter what, combat will be a bit more drawn out and we'll see more intense races as Fatigue starts to kick in.
>>45966924
>>45966948
>>45966970
This is starting to sound like a choice between
>A shitload more work to find out just how to scale HP with the increased expected successes
>Just accepting that this is a game about building the character with the quickest countdown to fight-ending-ki-attack
>Simply scaling increased expected successes from tiers with.... increased expected successes with tiers.
Personally, I vote Wulin/M&M3 opposing rolls option. It genuinely seems like the least work, and the most able to replicate the series that we all love. Besides, tiers' expected successes scale exponentially, which is a bitch to balance against anything other than the same exponential curve.
get dumped
So is this DBZ RPG general open to other attempts or is it exclusive to Regalia's?
Because I'd love to spitball ideas for other systems.
>>45972046
I'd have to say that popping into the game development general (if there's one open) is probably a better idea. Discussing two different systems based around the same canon in the same thread might get a bit confusing.
>>45972110
Next thread should probably have a more specific title then if this isn't a general for DBZ RPGs and just a thread about A DBZ RPG.
>>45973724
To be fair, until they started talking about making a system, there was only the one worth talking about. Unless you want Talsoran's infinite dice spirit bomb.
>>45973724
The game is literally called Dragonball Z The Roleplaying game.
>>45973814
So is like every DBZ homebrew.
>>45973768
Not true, there were at least 2 other decent ones, one based on Battle Century G and another based on Dogs in the Vineyard of all things. I'd even argue both of them do DBZ better than Regalia's system so far, Regalia's just got better presentation.
>>45974033
Regalia's is the only one in active development as far as I know.
>>45906988
Every fight is just a stalling tactic until the sayan in your party gets there.
>>45974195
There's so much more to talk about with a game in active development than ones that are basically done and finished.
But then you get a situation like >>45973768 where no one even knows they exist because no one talks about them, except in the off "recommend me a system" thread (which is where I even learned of their existence myself).
>>45972046
While I'm open to the idea I'd say either the Game Design General or a new thread just for the sake of clarity.
Also, blowing his cover,EMM has been posting all along without his name.I don't even know which posts are his.
>>45977374probably the shitposts.
>>45977374
>>45977374
Aww man, it'd be pretty awesome if he was one of the guys promoting those android rules I wrote up.
...
He might also be one of the ones shooting them down.
Hmmm...
>>45973814
Actually it's called Dragon Ball: The Roleplaying Game.
tb.h SSJB relates to training in your normal form and not leaking your ki
that was the spark that showed when vegeta and goku punched while in the whis' room of spirit and time
>>45983327
i'll leak my ki to you
>Game looks fun
>decide to make character
>have my face buried in my hand for an hour
>trying to figure out the best 3rd attribute & stat/skill combination
>realize the game is basically Attack A or B vs Defense 1 or 2
>lose all interest to build a character
THE CYCLE
cump
>>45954674
Aaaaaand now I have my next campaign
lump
Trump
stump
>>45985837
>>45987414
>>45989853
>>45990016
>>45991366
See, when I bump a thread, I try to do so with a post that encourages further discussion.
On the topic of reaction; We know only having one per round isn't nearly enough. It has been suggested that the number of available reactions be tied to a characters tier, or that every character should simply have an unlimited number available to them.
Shouldn't agility play some part in determining how often a character can react in battle? It doesn't make much sense for a slow character to be able to act an unlimited number of times.
Reactions equal to agility?
Reactions equal to agility times tier?
Maybe you can react an unlimited number of times, but failing a reaction prevents using any more until your next turn? Or failing AGI number of times prevents further reactions?
>>45992028
If you're higher tier, you're probably faster than you were at lower tier.
>>45992028
Agility times tier would be way too many. Maybe agility plus tier? On the high end, that's 10-15 reactions.
>>45992028
Personally, I think that either infinite, or "you lose a die for each subsequent reaction until you are just plain out" are the best, but>>45992232 's suggestion of tier+agility is nice
>>45992028
Agility being involved would make every defense eventually rely on having agility. I disagree with the notion that it should necessarily be a part of the reaction count.
>>45992232
Yeah, that would be a lot. But still less than Infinite.
Agility plus Tier sounds pretty good, you're looking at two for a tier one character with minimum agility, not bad.
>>45992028
bump
>>45993465
Wait... Why is there no poison and water based ki attack modifiers? We're down two shenrons!
>>45995454
Because only faggots give a shit about GT.
So how playable is this in its current state? Is there anything I should know before running it with my group?
>>45995624
Only faggots give a shit about canon.
>>45995624
M-muh canon in DB!
>>45996066
It's pure combat with very little RP and if any of your players are power gamers it won't feel like Dragonball, on account of all the one hit KOs.
For those who want to see the game played, the first return of the tournament gaming is this Thursday. Five players will be squaring off against Vod the Destroyer in a test of numbers vs tiers and a change to the reactions rules. If it goes like the skirmishes I've had with him, it should be a fight to behold.
>>45996066
Also, ignor the constant talk of one hit KOs. While mathematically possible in all of our test games we've seen it happen only twice. Once with a near perfect roll for a character from an earlier version of the game and once from a tier 7 attacking a tier 1.
It is pretty combat heavy, but if your player are good at free form roleplaying for social stuff it'll be fun.
>>45996268
>>45996066
Fuck canon, GT was just shit period.
>>45997032
This tired meme again.
>>45996066
The game's mostly playable. Strength is overpowered at the moment, just remove the x3 multiplier and you'll be fine. Combat's the only thing that really has detailed rules, so you'll just have to fly by the seat of your pants and use common sense if you want a stealth based game or have characters bluff or do knowledge checks.
Equipment is still incoming. Magic and psychic powers will not be, refluff Ki if you want to use those. And be aware that they just made major changes to the Ki Attack Creation system, and will be making more, so it's a little wonky at the moment.
>>46001058
>>45906988
Still no Kais and Makais? C'mon, it's just Aasimar and Tieflings, put them in already!
>>45911419
If SSJ4's not getting in, Cooler's Fifth Form sure as hell isn't.
>>46004272
You can do Kais with the Alien rules and Divine Ki. Makais are just stupid.
>>46004324
>Cooler's Fifth Form sure as hell isn't.
It's already in, and will keep being there.
>>46005565
I don't get it.
>>46004413
That doesn't make their Instaneous movement or their long range telepathy happen. And celestial ki is like the least useful trait in the game since other people can train to sense of and then once they do you're down a racial.
Makais are cool but I don't think they have consistent abilities. The demonic trait is actually worth something anyway.
>>46004324
I would like to think 4 would be for pure Saiyans and God would be for half Saiyans.
>>46008442
How do you figure, when the only people we've seen go SSG in the show are pure-blooded saiyans?
