How powerful was the Cardassian Union compared to the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans? They get their asses flattened by Klingons, but they apparently did so well against the Federation that the Federation will do anything to avoid another war. And how militarily powerful were the Ferengi? Their ships apparently could fight the Enterprise.
>>45967228
The Cardassians were very good at tactics and strategy; the wars fought with the Federation saw them able to use their smaller resources, firepower, and fleet to great effect. Basically they're really good at asymmetrical warfare - as long as they're the smaller ones, anyway.
That said the Federation refers to them as "brushfire" wars. The Federation was never making any serious effort in their wars with the Cardassians, which were mostly over minor territorial disputes at the fringe of Federation space; if the Federation had put effort into it, they could have crushed them underfoot, and the Cardassians know it (and this is WITHOUT the Federation actually fighting smart and becoming the scariest motherfuckers this side of the Imperium of Man). Nothing in the Cardassian fleet is, in a straight-up fight, a match for its analogue in the Federation fleet: a Galaxy-class can tear a Galor-class to shreds.
The Klingons, unlike the Federation, don't do wars halfway or half-hearted. When they went to war with the Cardassians they went all in. And for all that the Klingons can come across as stupid, they're still a spacefairing civilization with a massive empire and an intense love of combat and war. They are VERY good at war when they want to be, as evinced by a TNG alternate universe episode, "Yesterday's Enterprise", where the Klingons had brought the Federation to its knees.
The fact that the Cardassian union was on the decline at the time also helped the Klingons.
Basically, in real-world terms, the Federation is the United States, and the Klingons are Russia (and the Romulans, China). The Cardassians are like Turkey, Brazil, or South Africa - quite powerful in their home regions, but no match for the serious players.
Theyre a second rate power. The Federation wants peace over war almost anytime.
The Ferengi seems to be more of a merchant type fleet, they have the tech but wont fight if they can barter or steal. They will only attack something they feel superior too.
>>45967228
To answer your question about why the Federation was trying so hard to settle things with the Cardassians - the Federation by that point had just had its fleet eviscerated by the Borg at the Battle of Wolf 359. 39 ships were effortlessly destroyed by ONE Borg cube, not even slowing it down. The Federation wanted to settle everything with everyone at that point because they had a new Main Enemy and couldn't waste time on the little guys anymore.
(note, again, that the Cardassians obsessed over the Federation and the threat of another war with them, while the Federation largely had better things to do if they weren't actually stationed on DS9. The Cardassians got into a few wars with the Federation and dealing with the Feds became their entire national policy; the Federation got into a few wars with the Cardassians and then shrugged and got back to exploring/preparing for the Borg)
>>45967228
>And how militarily powerful were the Ferengi
Early TNG suggested that they were roughly on-par with the Federation, more advanced in some areas and less advanced in others, with a Ferengi D'Kora (Marauder) being roughly equal to a Galaxy-class. But this was when the Ferengi were supposed to be the replacements for the Klingons as the main antagonist aliens. Didn't work out.
Eventually as it was revealed that the Ferengi are merchants extraordinaire who buy and sell everything, it can be presumed that individual Ferengi heavily modify thier own personal vessels with acquisitions from their trades - they keep the best stuff for themselves, basically, provided they aren't offered enough. Thus a fresh-off-the-line D'Kora is significantly less powerful than a Galaxy-class, however individual D'Koras could have been upgraded to become on-par or even more powerful.
>>45967557
God, those early episodes where they tried to make the Ferengi seem threatening.
>>45967633
I actually liked the Ferengi's first appearance, until the Tkon hologram guy shows up and the Ferengi start hopping around like derranged gerbils. The Ferengi surface commander especially was doing his best to try and make the role work. In particular an original idea to the Ferengi was that they had poor eyesight but excellent hearing, and the Ferengi surface commander as well as the guy in the viewscreen did a pretty good job of getting that across by always turning his ears to anyone he hears speaking while never really looking directly at anyone.
There was potential. It was wasted.
Oh, I also miss the original concept-art, more pointed and batlike ears. They were dropped not because they couldn't get them to look good, but rather because Roddenberry didn't want a species to cramp the Vulcans' style.
Jerk.
>>45967557
It wasn't that 39 ships was a crippling loss to the entire fleet. Most estimates put Starfleet in the 5k-20k range of ships, The issue is that almost all of the ships lost there came from the home fleets that guard Earth, Andor, Tellar, and Vulcan. When you consider that the Federation is 8000 LY across, and that it can take months to cross it, the loss of 39 ships isn't a big deal to the overall strength of the fleet, but when taking the local forces available, it is a severe depletion. Also, consider that if the Borg can emerge victorious when outnumbered 40:1, the fear isn't that they send another single cube, what happens if the Borg send 50 cubes? Or 100? Suddenly it is a threat that would take the entirety of Starfleet to defeat, and given Borg warp and transwarp capabilities, it would be impossible to assemble such a collection of ships in time to defend Federation space.
>>45967930
Which, regardless, leaves the same fundamental point: The Federation was no longer in the mood to play with the little kids. It had the Borg to deal with. So it was doing all it could to resolve things with, among others, the Cardassians, so that it wouldn't be distracted.
>>45967228
>They get their asses flattened by Klingons, but they apparently did so well against the Federation that the Federation will do anything to avoid another war.
The Federation doesn't like fighting wars in general. Those with the Cardassians were treated more like prolonged border skirmishes than anything.
Picard says that the Stargazer had trouble with them but it was a 70 year old ship at the time that was known for mechanical difficulties. By TNG the Cardassians were completely outclassed but the Federations resources were spread out over an area 10 times the size of the Cardassian union in addition to all of their other exploration missions.
The Federation were beginning to push in the Klingon's shit after a few months of serious fighting because they finally dedicated real resources to it. Or that was the state of things as of the attempt to have Gowron assassinated as a changeling.
In the Dominion war Galor class starships are being referred to as Destroyers. They're not fielding the sort of ships to be considered a real threat unless its against Miranda and Constellation class ships.
>>45967967
Oh yeah, totally, I mean, in The Wounded, a Galor opens fire on the Enterprise when her shields aren't even up and does almost no damage.
>>45967633
>>45967733
I actually liked this reasoning as a solution to the early series Ferengi thing:
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Ferengi
>Apocrypha
>The discrepancy between the early Ferengi and the later ones was at least partly explained in the novel The Buried Age, a flashback novel looking at Picard's career between the destruction of the Stargazer and assuming command of the Enterprise-D. The book explains that the supposedly threatening nature of the Ferengi in early TNG was a product of disinformation; viewing the Federation's moneyless economic structure as a sign of insanity, the Grand Nagus ordered a military buildup and sanctioned the spread of malicious rumors so that, when they did make contact, it would be from a position of strength.
Narratively, it does make for a nice change to have an enemy who is not a huge threat or overpowering or trying to destroy everything, yet still more threatening than local goblin tribe tier.
It's something more settings could learn from; having a reoccurring enemy of limited scope, very dangerous on a local level but also able to be worked with at times (shifting governments lead to Cardassians being both adversary and if not ally, companion at least). A lot of character development for them and it didn't even matter that they were never going to do much by themselves (on the grand scale).
>>45967228
>but they apparently did so well against the Federation that the Federation will do anything to avoid another war.
I think one could draw comparisons here to the last days of the WW2 pacific theatre. The Cardassians are no threat to the Federation, and they never were. But just look at their culture; any protracted war against the Cardassians would become Total War very very quickly, because they have a culture that would militarize the entire population rather than submit. It's a miracle the Federation were able to get a treaty the first time, and they realize that if they get dragged into another war with the Cardassians they will probably have to wipe out every man, woman, and child on Cardassia Prime to stop it.
They could likely do that in a matter of days, but it goes against everything they stand for. So they're willing to take a few punches and let the Cardies push the limits of the treaty because the alternative is probably to commit genocide.
>>45967228
Just a reminder, a single Nebula class piloted by a suspicious captain was able to wreck shit across Cardassian space unopposed. Even when they could track him they couldn't put out anything that could even slow him down until the Enterprise showed up to escort him back home.
Also the Cardassians were shocked that the Federation would read their IFF signals on the fly. That was a great episode.
>>45968689
what episode was that? Also what season was the cardi fed war?
>>45968712
The Wounded, S04E12 Source of the OP's pic btw.
The cardi war never happened on screen in TNG.
This thread makes me want to see a war between Species 8472 and the Dominion at their prime.
>>45968924
thank you anon.
>>45968318
kind of reminds me of the batarians from mass effect
The Ferengi have technology more or less equivalent to most of the other recurring races.
However, like the klingons, they didn't independently develop the ability to build warp drives and got it from another race, in their case by purchasing it, whereas the Klingons reverse engineered it from captured Hur'q ships. So in all likelihood much of Ferengi technology in general is bought, rather than indigenously developed.
I can't even begin to guess how the Ferengi military would be structured or financed, maybe it's like the IRS.
>>45970476
feudal nobility with the number of troops a ferengi equivalent of a noble lord control troops based on how many he can manage and supply
>>45970476
>Ferengi IRS
>>45970849
It isn't the IRS, it is the Ferengi Commerce Authority. Remember Liquidator Brunt?
>>45970476
They probably go big on mercenaries. Think Carthage in space.
>>45967414
>and this is WITHOUT the Federation actually fighting smart and becoming the scariest motherfuckers this side of the Imperium of Man
laughingbreen.holo
>>45971718
I'm talking about the Federation that's not carrying an idiot ball. The plot armor is removed but so is the plot-induced stupidity. I'm talking about a Federation that remembers that if it's facing someone that doesn't have shields, it can just beam bombs directly onto an enemy ship. I'm talking about a Federation that access to weapons that can destroy the surface of a planet *and replace the biosphere with a new one*. I'm talking about the Federation that knows how to make artificial wormholes that, while unstable, are more than capable of existing long enough to collapse stars. I'm talking about the Federation that remembers that it can built entirely automated ships crewed by hard-light holograms that could do whatever they wanted without putting a single Federation citizen at risk.
Like I said, if the Federation wanted to be, they could be the scariest motherfuckers this side of the Imperium.
>>45972719
For more information, see: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Warship_Voyager
>>45970476
>>45970638
>>45971421
The Ferengi have no military, they have never even fought a war. The whole concept is repulsive to them.
>>45973154
Well, the concept of *them* fighting a war. Other people? They love it. It's a rule of acquisition after all: war is good for business.
>>45967228
On an related note:
I fucking love Galor class cruisers
They're like the T-72 of Star Trek.
>>45972719
I'd love to see a ruthless federation, it's how space faring civilisations ought to be. Not really evil but if you go to war or get uppity get ready to have some fucked up shit happen to you. Glory to the emprah!
>>45973154
They do have a military of some kind that operates their armed starships, but most of the information available indicates that its primary function is to protect ferengi financial interests and seek out new economic opportunities.
>>45975869
Old TOS could be like that. There was an episode where Kirk told Scotty to eradicate all traces of civilization on this planet if they didn't call back in a few hours because the civilization was fucking around with them. Had a command code for it and everything.
>>45975914
It's a shame we never got to see the Marauders in DS9, They were all using shuttles instead, even the Grand Nagus.
>>45967733
Read up on the Ferrengi energy whip. Apparently they had this great functioning prototype that was a marvel of engineering and the company they use to make props completely fucked it up and didn't tell them until it was too late leaving them to rig up these shitty plastic things.
>>45975869
Mirror Universe.
>>45976013
"General Order 24"
From "A Taste of Armageddon"; it's one of those TOS episodes that I find, after 20 or so years of grimdark, seems to have wrapped around from being old fashioned and cheesy to being almost radical.
>>45976094
I saw that
>Mode 1: A short range energy whip for close combat
>Mode 2: Stiffens out to an energy rifle for longer range combat
>Shaped like a spine
Instead, they get a floppy blue dildo.
>>45975869
>it's how space faring civilisations ought to be
It's completely antithetical to the fundamental idea of Star Trek and the Federation. Maybe in sci-fi generally, if that's your think, but NOT in Trek, or at least not the Federation. Ever.
>>45977443
It is pretty much how the Dominion operated. If you think about how they acted prior to the outbreak of the war, they manipulated their foes so they had a giant fleet assembled at the wormhole, and then set up the star to go nova and wipe out a huge amount of the fleet assets of all their major foes, all in one fel swoop that cost only a single one of their lives, the changeling who would blow up the star.
It didn't work out for them, because the heroes saved the day, but it certainly fits the modus operandi in question.
>>45975249
Sexy as hell.
