>shitty cards are fun, I love playing vanilla 2/3s for 4 mana
>good removal at common is anti fun, it should cost 5+ mana
WotC says they print shitty cards just for limited, do people really enjoy playing with garbage cards so much?
Wouldn't Limited be much more fun with a higher powerlevel?(I know it would, Cube is pretty fun)
>>45514807
>do people really enjoy playing with garbage cards so much?
Unless they are the kind of garbage you can build around/make a deck theme of (OP pic related); NO.
It's one thing to have jokingly bad cards like pic related, but another to have underwelmingly bad cards that have nothing special about them. I think it's just Wizards' excuse to fluff out sets with plenty of cards so that their sets don't feel empty.
>>45515406
Basically this. There are degrees of "Bad card". They are.
Boring, overpriced shit: Exists to test skill in limited: GOOD limited players don't draft/run this dreck. Scarred Puma is this, only remembered at all because dank meme. A lot of famously bad crap like Laces and Great Wall are here too. Nobody likes these unless they have art or flavor text that makes them collector kitch.
GILBIC: Workhorses that you'd never use if you had unlimited card selection. Uninteresting or somewhat underpowered, but they do something and perform a purpose. Storm Crow goes here (at the bottom end) -- it's evasive, even if it's bad. Most decently designed cards are this, unable to cut it against the best of the best, but for rares to shine commons and uncommons can't have that much luster. Cube can be fun, but increasing all these guys to constructed playable would a) make it so much easier for the limited formats to get borked if something was a mistake and b) power creep the game faster than now.
Terrible, but weird: These cards have or cause a unique effect, but the effect is usually detrimental, impossible to work or otherwise insanely "why would you ever do that?" People like the puzzle these present. In addition to Razor Boomerang Machine Gun:
Wood Elemental: ALMOST a type 1, but if you can somehow capitalize on obliterating all your lands you could rube goldberg your way to casual victory, which makes people WANT to do it. Llanowar Druid, Forgotten Harvest, and then Restore Balance fires...
Chimney Imp: Can create a hard lock where your opponent never sees a new card with recursion
Sorrow's Path: With Stuffy Doll and en-Kor creatures becomes "2 to me, 2*my creatures to that sap". Fun to multiplayer.
One With Nothing: Setup for the Barren Glory win.
And so on. The Rube Goldberg machines are objectively still bad, but taking something worthless and turning it into a WTF moment of value when it works can be an amusing exercise.
>>45514807
If wizards didn't print shitty cards at every rarity level they'd actually be meeting the demand for cards that don't suck ass. Instead they have people buy more product.
>>45514807
Bad cards allow limited formats to do a larger variety of things.
If creatures are slow and bad you will inevitably get board stalls, which will let you get an opportunity to assemble engines, play 6+ mana haymakers etc. Whereas cheap aggressive or evasive creatures combined with burn means you rarely have the time to play the slower cards, but you do get to assemble good aggressive curves. E.g. compare Zendikar limited to Rise of the Eldrazi limited.
Bad removal makes auras, equipment and effects that put +1/+1 counters on creatures better. Voltrons are only good when doomblade and unsummon aren't around, basically. On the other hand, strong removal enables control and tempo strategies. Theros is an example of a format where lack of removal enabled Voltron strategies that would otherwise be impossible.
The very existence of a combo deck in a limited format can completely skew things out of favor for midrange decks, and most limited decks generally trends toward some version of midrange. Hence, WotC is really cautious when it comes to combo in limited. The best you can hope for are usually value engines, mass removal, or large life swings; outright 2 or 3 card game winning combos usually don't happen. In my opinion WotC could be a little more adventurous with combos in limited, but I doubt we'll see a large change soon.
Finally, fixing. Bad fixing means players will tend to draft around 2 colors each, and will therefore naturally divide themselves into the available archetypes and pass the cards that don't fit their deck, even if they're strong. Good fixing tends to reward players for splashing strong rares, or simply running 4 or 5 color "good stuff" decks, which means the player with the fixing gets all the good cards as well. Compare Khans to Battle for Zendikar.
>>45519801
So to summarize:
Bad creatures allows you to play slow stuff.
Bad removal allows you to build voltrons.
Bad combos allow you to build aggro and midrange decks.
Bad fixing allows you to cut colors and wheel great cards.
Cube and draft are both fun, but it's a different game, it's like comparing modern and edh (both are constructed formats aren't they?).
>>45514807
4-5 mana unconditional removal is still powerful card that can be first picked in most formats. When Doom Blade was common drafts came down to whoever snatched most of them for their pile. That's not a very meaningful format.
Cheap removal can work in a powered enviroment where it is used to kill Goblin Guides and Bobs, but if regular sets would be designed with that kind of balance in mind the powercreep would be horrendous.
Cards in Limited also need to be simpler than most, since people play with them for the first time there. When a high percentage of your deck is brand new cards, you should be able to comprehend what they do quickly. There's also the added complexity in draft that a 4 mana 2/3 is not just 2/3 play on turn 4, but also a pick from a pack that also contains other cards with vastly different effects. And sometimes what you need is just a fourdrop to fill your curve. New players already take a long time to think trough their picks and miss triggers, there's no reason make it worse by adding complexity for the sake of complexity. Cube is usually played by seasoned players who already know half the cards inside-out and is not a format that should compared to 1:1.
>>45514807
>just for limited
Wrong, they also do it to provide "traps" for new players to accidentally use because they assumed something that came with their new game would be playable so that they can later figure out why the cards are bad. Y'know, instead of just not printing cards that bad in the first place.
Essentially all of the reasons boil down to "it's hard to design a balanced game so we're just going to give up on that and call it a design decision."
>>45515786
>are still objectively bad
>objectively
Wow, way to end a quality post on such a terrible note. You can't even say you misused the word for brevity given the length of every other point.
>>45520380
>you should be able to comprehend what they do quickly
Or you could read your cards as you put the deck together and then this wouldn't be a problem. Maybe that's part of the problem, WotC is trying to make the illiterate a target demographic.
How to fix magic:
1. Make the summer set a draft set.
2. Bring back the core set and replace modern masters with it.
3. Make big print runs for the draft set, and all the other sets are designed for constructed.
Boom. Draft players are happy, we don't have to deal with "muh limittieeedssss" in constructed sets, and we get more/better reprints.
>>45520750
>Or you could read your cards as you put the deck together and then this wouldn't be a problem.
So you have never missjudged how a card worked or never missed a trigger in your life. You're a cool kid I guess.
>>45520803
Constructed only set would sell like shit. Limited players open the packs so that constructed players get their hands on the singles.
Reprints are hold back because of Standard, not because of limited.
I agree. "It's weak cause limited" is a piss poor excuse when powerful or even moderately decent sets are very fun to draft.
Just FYI, if you supernerds want, I started a discord for chat/matchmaking/yelling at each other about dud packs and people fucking up the rotation. There's a few of us from the EDH thread hanging out in here, now.
https://discord.gg/0q3dlAIlJs6OEOvh
>>45520912
>Constructed only set would sell like shit
??? why
i would actually buy packs if the cards in them were designed for the formats i play, i.e. constructed
instead i cant buy packs because 99% of the cards are useless outside of draft
>>45522572
You're an idiot. Why wouldn't you buy singles?
>>45520912
>never misread a card
Sure I have, but I've never blamed the card for it. It isn't that hard to read the fucking cards, we've all made mistakes but they've all also been stupid, easily avoidable mistakes. The solution is players learning to be more attentive, not dumbing down design until it's impossible for someone to ever flub anything.
I lost to an Atogatog through commander damage.I might just be the worst player ever
>>45523537
Because not everyone is autistically obsessed with maximizing their value and have enjoyment from things like opening packs?
>>45520750
>Wow, way to end a quality post on such a terrible note. You can't even say you misused the word for brevity given the length of every other point.
Shut the fuck up you dweeb. They are objectively bad because there is a very simple way to quantify whether a card is good or not: how it affects win percentage.
Playing this janky-ass trash combo is objectively worse because it is objectively less likely to win the game than building a different deck, and it is objectively weaker than other cards that could fill that slot.
You aren't being pedantic, you're being a fucking mongoloid and I want you to kill yourself and never, ever fucking speak again unless spoken to, because nothing you say has value.
>>45520380
>When Doom Blade was common drafts came down to whoever snatched most of them for their pile. That's not a very meaningful format.
Good job showing you've never played a not-shit format competitively.
Jesus, I give up. I'm switching to Go. Fuck all you niggers and nerds, you're idiots and you deserve to rot in this landfill you've created for yourselves.
>>45520912
>So you have never missjudged how a card worked or never missed a trigger in your life. You're a cool kid I guess.
>Waaah, knowing the rules is hard!
They even literally write out anything that might be potentially even slightly ambiguous (but isn't if you actually know the rules) on Gatherer fucking WEEKS in advance of the goddamned PRERELEASE
Not knowing what the cards do is your own fucking fault you illiterate.
>>45524370
I'm so sorry. It's a terrible burden, being perfect instead of having fun.
>>45524605
You being an idiot is actively preventing me from being able to have fun with this hobby.
You lowering the bar and therewith the cap of complexity makes this hobby less fun.
You happily buying shit sandwiches and continuing to pay for the creatively defunct garbage being shoveled down your throat, making corporate interest no longer be about quality, but about marketability, is preventing me from having fun.
You, and all the other goddamned pleb on this gay earth, are the antithesis of fun. You are boring, simplistic and trite.
>>45524687
Then get out of the fucking game instead of bitching. Nobody's forcing you to stay but you, cockhammer.
And this is why LCGs are the better distribution model: when nobody needs a second mortgage to play constructed, shit cards only get released occasionally by mistake, not all the fucking time by design.
>>45524339
Wow, so angry. Sorry you don't understand what common words mean, I wish you had a better education too. It's never too late to go back and get that degree though.
>>45525173
>I want to be a pedant but I'm functionally illiterate and so am unable to understand language beyond the level of a two-year old playing at profundity by attempting to refute things with an overwhelming degree of obtuse pretension
baka desu
>>45524951
I'm already out of the game. Won't stop me from hating you retards from making it unplayable though.
I've still got my powered cube, but I am annoyed I won't get to add anything fun to it for years.
>>45525127
I feel Netrunner's release schedule is a bit fast but yeah, little to complain about. It's really more of a subscription system than anything else
>>45515406
Ayyyy fuk u I love my myr prototype
>>45523661
>Opening packs is bad!
>Opening packs is good!
>>45525778
Hey friendo!
Eldrazi Displacer is pretty good for cube.
So is:
Thought Knot-seer
Reality Smasher
Matter Reshaper?(This teir of card really depends on how big your cube is I guess, may not be a slot for it in 360-500 range)
Mirrorpool
Goblin Dark-Dwellers
Sea Gate Wreckage
Flipwalkers
Abbot of Keral Keep
Hangarback
Goblin Piledriver(If you don't have it there already I guess)
Dragonmaster Outcast(As above)
Harbinger of Tides
To name a few.
>>45525719
>stringing "big" words together and calling the other guy wrong makes me look smart
You still didn't use "objectively" correctly, sorry. Pointing fingers and throwing a hissy fit about internet pedants isn't going to make you any less wrong, learn the meanings of words and don't make the same mistake in the future.
Is anyone still lurking this thread? Just 3-0d an oath draft with pic related. Probably the most insane deck I've ever drafted.
>>45527251
How'd it play out? I dont see the Surge's being payed too often
>>45527281
a 5/4 in limited is still pretty good, as long as the rest of your deck is decent
>>45527281
between all of the 1 and 2 drops, plus the 2 x spells, surge happened quite often actually. Cast fall of the titans on x=0 one game to enable tyrant to come down a turn early and bolt a flier. Endless one is a really good surge enabler since he's just a mana sink. Casting endless one on 3 mana then surging salvo to win my to secure my last game was tight. Dank Dwellers never got to flashback anything, but it turns out a 4/4 menace is still pretty good.
>>45527251
Looking pretty solid, anon! Although the deck is even more fun when you throw in equipment.
I played Esper Allies today for shits and giggles. The deck as fun to play and Cohort is great when you get to tap, gain life, and can make your opponent lose life - while never actually attacking. I went 2-1 with the deck but I conceded to my opponent that one round I lost.
Also, I almost won with Felidar Sovereign but my opponent just conceded before it happened.
>>45527704
yeah, I picked up the RW equipment guy, and would have snap picked any bonesaws to help enable surge, but I never got there.
How did endbringer perform? I thought it looked coole for EDH when it got spoiled, but does it get there in limited?
>>45527704
>Todbringer
>Gravitations-Dementor
>Bannzauber
German is so damn cool for Magic cards.
>>45527757
Aww, too bad. The RW equipment 3/2 does wonders for the deck. Zada's Commando + Bonesaw is a serious threat as well. Bonesaw in general is a nice card in this Limited format.
Endbringer does serious work in Draft. You can kill your opponent's tokens or 1 toughness creatures of which there are a TON in the format. Or you can lock down a serious threat or a big blocker. Or, if you're really greedy, draw cards. A 5/5 is nice in combat as well. But usually it's amazing to win when the board is stalled on the ground. Just by pinging your opponent it wins games.
>>45527818
I KNOW RIGHTThe truth is the English BFZ were all gone and we had to use German packs. Most of our players want to draft in English all the time.
>>45527251
>>45527704
This satisfies my fetish for limited decks
>>45528246
Is it a similar fetish like the Ohio one or the kitchen tiles fetish thing?
Post your most busted Draft decks, /tg/!
>pack 1, Jace
>no one at the table dared to draft blue
>>45528293
Probably the Ohio one
>>45528440
Care to share some details, anon?
>>45514807
WotC prints shitty cards for a lot of reasons. One of the reasons is it gives people a chance to grow as players. They can look back to when they thought paying 8 mana to gain 5 life was OP and have physical reminders of their growth as players
>>45528623
It'sa joke anon_____________
>>45514807
What I like about low powerlevel is that it gives you a wider range of cards and strategies to play around with. Plus the games aren't over on T2.However, I completely understand your point of view and respect your opinion :^)
>>45529290
> Plus the games aren't over on T2.
I think the trick is just to give midrange/control decks enough tools to stand a chance. Khans draft was VERY high powered and yet matches routinely went to turn 10 or so, and it was a fucking blast to play.
>>45529290
>What I like about low powerlevel is that it gives you a wider range of cards and strategies to play around with
that has nothing to do with powerlevel, that's just a bad excuse for bad balancing
>>45526148
Opening packs is bad but fun
>>45519895
Cube IS a draft format..
>>45527251
3-0. Took a few red picks and saw nothing the rest of the draft. Turns out 4 guys were trying to force red. 3 more were trying to make blue black work because somebody told them it works.
>>45515786
>objectively
You had me until you posted this unironically to try and bolster your argument.
"Objectively" is not a trump card you play to try and make your words sound more convincing. /pol/sticky
>>45534404
>3 Sheer Drops
wew
Pretty amazing deck but why the two walls?
Constructed is more fun with a lower power level
Limited is more fun with a higher power level
>>45514807
I bet they'd fucking reprint Wood Elemental still in the rare slot of Eternal Masters given the chance, thank god for the reserve list.
>>45534380
Your reading comprehension needs work.
>>45536482
not that guy but he's right
>>45536504
not that anon but if all he's saying is "cube = draft" than yes he's technically correct but also is making an extremely pointless statement
>>45514807
the CMC of removal's not important, what's important that it be in every color at uncommon and common.
see Theros block for how shit limited gets when there's not enough removal
>>45536609
cube is a draft format
>"b-b-but it isn't because reasons"
oh nice u started posting macros to try and bolster your non-issue
>>45520803
Standard is garbage, though.
My LGS has turned to alternating modern and draft, and it works great. Get to enjoy the new sets without having to buy into garbage standard formats.
>>45536667
>"I should be able to play my Commander in the command zone in Standard! Th-they're b-both constructed formats!"
Yeah you're right they're definitely the same thing, here's your (You).
>>45515406
>Razor Boomerang isn't bad, it just has untapped power so sealed it takes the creatures of multiple planes to unlock it
I'm imagining some MtG show like Duel Masters where the MC uses this combo and it synergizes with his rivals storm deck
>>45534404
>3 sheer drop
>3 lagac
>3 pathwarden
goddamn son, who passed you all those playables?
>start playing magic
>like opening packs and using booster pulls to make decks to play with friends
>sets start getting shittier and shittier and find that 11-12/15 cards per booster are so bad they're practically unplayable
>why are all these time spiral and lorwyn and alara cards so bomb diggity but all these RTR and theros cards are fucking dog shit holy fuck?
>see people asking similar question
>response is "muh limited u shitlord fuck off"
and that's when I quit spending money on magic. I never cared for driving to shops and playing competitively, I just enjoyed having a fun night at the kitchen table, but if the direction wotc wants to take the game is "we pander to the mentally disabled and 13 year olds for depth and complexity" then I'm done
>>45536727
it's a draft format too bad for you
>>45539145
Actually thinking about it RTR had some cool stuff too, but I regret just about every cent I spent on BOTG and JOU
>>45514807
i play a fuckton of pauper. It's one of the last formats that has not been destroyed by people creating a few set decks and playing only with them because they are the only ones taht hold up
>>45528358
i had a big pile of garbage last night, managed to 3-0 by dropping Kozilek 4 games out of 6.
6 Island
4 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Fertile Thicket
1 Wastes
1 Holdout Settlement
1 Unknown Shores
2 Blinding Drone
1 Loam Larva
1 Hedron Crawler
1 Stalking Drone
1 Kozilek's Shrieker
1 Warden of Geometries
1 Seed Guardian
1 Incubator Drone
2 Cyclone Sire
1 Embodiment of Insight
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Spatial Contortion
1 Transgress the Mind
2 Sweep Away
1 Complete Disregard
1 Tar Snare
1 Comparative Analysis
1 Hedron Archive
1 Demon's Grasp
1 Roiling Waters
>>45531886
>that has nothing to do with powerlevel, that's just a bad excuse for bad balancing
what the fuck are you talking about? if you have an objectively bad card that does some neat stuff, if you're playing at a lower powerlevel it becomes more viable and leads to more interesting decks.
>>45540781
yes and if you have the same cards properly balanced at a higher powerlevel you have the same amount of interesting decks.
Higher powerlevel doesn't necessarily lead to less diversity I don't know how that's so difficult to understand.
>>45539250
you obviously haven't been playing competitive pauper then
>>45536715
you are drafting so you are still buying into the standard format, you idiot
>>45537171
In no particular order
>its a 3/1 for 4 its so bad!
>I dont want to be in green
>I thought about it but I wanted bonesaw more.
>none of my rares were green/white
>so and so said (other colors) were better
Only two guys at the table had a real reason to not be in green or white. The first was a pack 1 pick 1 Cletus. The second was a foil ob nixilis. One guy attempted a 4 color near-creatureless storm deck winning with the UR legend and pyromancers assault.
>>45536727
Cube isn't related to draft or even sealed at all. Its the equivalent of a set. You draft a set, you draft a cube. Cube isn't something you play, it's a custom set that you use for limited games like sealed and draft.
>>45544615
That sounds like the most pointless distinction ever.
I like shit cards in sealed. Pretty fun getting stuck with shitty cards and going "Well, lets make this work."
Sealed is all we play in my friend group. Got a cube of shit cards we play out of and have at it.
>>45525778
You'd better add Wastes.
>>45539215
Theros as a block was about powering down Standard and effectively taught Wizards that 2 small sets was bad for business because the cool stuff was either in Jou (and not enough of it) or THS. Born made Limited worse and was not cool enough for Standard.
>implying there arent hedden gims just waiting to be discovered like this badboy
>>45542023
You misunderstand what "buying into the standard format" means, you idiot.
so you want more power creep?
>>45546514
It's almost like that there's a balance to be sought for fucktard.
>>45546514
I'd like it if they stopped filling sets with useless fucking garbage that is useless as soon as draft night is over. I'm not saying jack up the power level and make every set more powerful than the last, I'm saying we could go without every single fucking common commons being 4-6 cmc removal/combat tricks and vanilla/french vanilla creatures, all of which is so underwhelming I've seen people at the shop literally just pick the rares and uncommons out of their draft pile and throw the rest in the trash. and that's not a joke, last night people were literally throwing their commons in the fucking trash can when the draft was over because it was all worthless and they said they didn't have room for them at home
>>45547127
Iron Cubelet. Just stick all the shit people don't care about in a pile, shuffle it, and then play Cubelet.
>>45547127
>>45547127
Of course, because it's Iron Cubelet, you rip up everything that's in exile or the graveyard after the game.
This is in my possession.
What should I do with this /tg/?
>>45547871
Not posting in the Limited thread would be a start.
>>45547871
Play 93-94 format MTG.
>>45547871
Are you the guy that posted in the subreddit or are you the dad of the guy?
>>45534380
You idiot chucklefuck.
He was saying that Cube is to a booster draft what EDH is to Standard: technically, both are the same 'format' (draft and constructed, respectively) but that the two have next to nothing in common beyond that.
He was also right, you illiterate cunt.
>>45548408
He's more right than you are. The comparison between Cube and booster draft is unlike the comparison between Standard and EDH because a Cube is not a format in and of itself. It's a customized mini-set, which can be played in multiple limited formats, like booster draft, winchester, or rochester draft, or sealed, of any number of packs.
>>45547871
sell it
>draft an amazing set that might actually win
>run out of time before the game starts, cram some lands in and hope for the best
>win my first round without incident, even though I made repeated stupid mistakes
>fix the land count, but second guess myself repeatedly
>end up turning a fantastic deck into junk, waste the excellent draft, embarrassing myself
I hate this shitty game and myself
>>45526423
>no word over four syllables
>"wow I can't believe this jagoff is talking English above 2nd grade where are his manners reeeeeEeEeEEeE"
Anon please, you're still retarded and objectively wrong about whether the word "objectively" was used correctly.
You're incapable of rudimentary English and should've been smothered in the crib.
>>45540839
People who like modern card design tend to be retarded and lack basic understanding of game design, don't worry about it.
