Pathfinder General /pfg/
Fantasy world edition
What's your favorite fantasy world? To play in? To read in general? Discuss
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Old Thread: >>48276763
Reposting from last thread:
>How broken would it be to change the Enlightened Paladin's Unarmed Strike to grant Weapon Focus and Sacred Weapon damage for his deity's favored weapon?
>>48296762
Very.
Which of the 1pp unarmed Style feat chains are worth taking? Any of them?
>>48296751
>to play
As far as pre-written ones go, freeport. My group has a thing for pirates
>to read
Discworld.
>you will never be a bad enough dude to convert an entire nest of harpies from CE asswipes to productive NG members of society
Feels bad man. Kestrals are pretty cool at least, though I doubt I'll ever see them get used anywhere.
>>48296751
I unfortunately am a shit and don't know many fantasy worlds, or remember most of the ones I've read about. Most of the time they tend to be either terrible or just so generic and unmemorable that I can't give two shits.
Looks like Shoka got out threaded
Is there any classes that get bonus feats that you can take Magic Tails with?
>>48296798
You'd be surprised. Quite a few of them are good.
My favorite by far is Kirin Style.
>>48296762
The big problem I see is that unarmed strike isn't an island. You'd also need to redesign divine body, and you'd loose a bunch of utility of the ki pool.
That said, it still has it's shitty version of smite and sacred weapon isn't particularly powerful so I wouldn't think it'd be too bad.
>>48296846
SoP Incanter
>>48296846
With 1pp, take the Wrecking Mysticism Oracle curse and replace all your mystery spells with the feats.
>>48296751
Pic related.
Reposting:
/PFG/ Is there anyway to be able to crit an inanimate object? The closest I can find is by using a Maul of the Titans.
>>48296873
What's this supposed to be? It's making me think of /dlq/
>>48296832
Wait, what? What is this?
>>48296834
>ignoring IRC rules so soon after they got changed
>>48296903
I'll supplicate them with another drow.
Look fuckers I don't go to your IRC but I'm still going to say this:
Keep that shit in there and not out here, alright?
>>48296920
Yeah, that'd be lovely.
>>48296916
That's not even good drow art, plebanon.
>>48296920
Here, fucking here.
Is Mithral Current useable with no feat investment?
Aside from Quick Draw, I guess. That seems absolutely mandatory.
>>48296866
Holy shit that's perfect.
>>48296860
That's great, also thanks anon.
>>48296929
How about this?
>>48296897
It is. That's the map Domo made to track progress through the Dungeon.I'm blushing.
>>48296944
You caught my attention.
>>48296798
Pummeling is pretty great, Kirin is good, Grabbing Drag and Kraken are useful for grappling depending on your build, Charging Stag is unique (and strangely not listed on the srd), Dragon is great if you've got huge Str, Tiger has some fun uses in a combo Bull Rush build, really most of them are nice for one thing or another.
>>48296974
Doesn't Kirin use way too many swift actions?
>>48296934
You don't actually need Quick Draw; you can draw weapons during iaijutsu strikes as a free action.
>>48296974
>(and strangely not listed on the srd)
>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/charging-stag-style-combat-style
???
>>48296985
Combat Stamina lets Kirin Strike passively add your Int all the time on things you've ID'd as opposed to needing to spend a swift for double. You still CAN spend a swift to double if you have it free though.
>>48297016
Too bad not everything gets combat stamina and it's in an alternate rules book. Though that does make it more useful. Still, having to spend an additional feat to make these feats not shit sucks.
>>48296991
Oh, holy shit, you're right. It just needs you to have +1 BAB.
Though, doesn't sheathing a weapon provoke?
I reckon the stances fix that, yeah?
>>48297033
To be fair, combat stamina is, as far as combat feats go, pretty good in a lot of cases. There's some really useful effects in there.
>>48297016
>Combat Stamina lets Kirin Strike passively add your Int all the time
It still requires TWO swifts to enable (one to enter the style, one to ID).
>>48297053
>enter the style
why would you ever exit the style
>>48297037
Yeah, the stances handle that. You need EITHER MC stances or Mixed Combat to be really good at it. Otherwise you can still just dip in and use them in the first round.
>>48297052
Oh, I'm not saying it isn't good (Though the few I looked at aren't great) I'm just saying it's a damn shame it's a feat to make other feats less shit (except for an optional rules for fighters, I think?)
>>48297053
There isn't any rules about when you can be in a style though, so you basically just turn it on and you're good.
>>48297064
You can't keep styles up out of combat. You explicitly have to enter the style every time you enter combat to benefit from it.
Styles are much more restrictive than stances.
>>48296798
My favorites are jabbing style and panther style. Jabbing style is especially good for the unchained monk and Panther style is especially good for the stalker. If you do a sacred fist with a dip in master of many styles you can also combine dragon style with pummeling style to annihilate everything with one punch.
>>48297076
>As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies. Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style.
>you cannot use a style feat before combat begins
>>48297068
There are, though. Paizo specifically stated no styles out of combat and you have to start it as a swift. This was frustrating for PoW's style feat design.
>>48296934
This anon >>48296991 is right, drawing isn't the hard part, sheathing is.
But you can still do it, you just need to be in a mithral current stance that allows free sheathing, and most do.
Even without that it's still doable, just a bit awkward (You either need to take your move action to sheathe your weapon, turning all strikes into full attack equivalents in terms of how much of your turn they take up, or you keep a bunch of cheap daggers sheathed on your person and draw a new one with every strike, dropping it as a free action right after)
>>48297094
Wrong quote.
Wanted to quote this dude:
>>48297068
>>48296899
Pls respond I love redemption stories.
>>48297132
I just picked a harpy image out of my image folder and slapped it out, anon. The redemption thing was just in reference to harpies inGolarian.
>>48297171
But then what are Kestrels and why'd you talk about them??
>>48297094
Hrm.
I mean, by that, you have to be in combat to start it, but combat ENDING doesn't end your style.
By RAW at least.
>>48297194
Look this is a really fucking dumb ruling can we all just ignore that shit and say that switching from one style to another costs a swift but if you only have one style it's always on unless you spend a swift to voluntarily turn it off and on for some obscure reason
>>48297236
I mean, it maybe a dumb ruling but it's still the rules. You can argue to get your DM to accept your house rule, but it's exactly that and when we discuss it we should specify what the rules are before going into potential house rules. It makes it much easier to communicate when we all start with the same base rules.
>>48296997
Sorry, I meant it's not listed on the same page as the rest of the Style feats.
Out of all the PoW style feat chains, which one is the strongest on paper?
Not in an optimization way, but in a "this is clearly the most powerful one" way.
How can I make a non-silver weapon count as if it was a silver weapon? Permanently, preferably, though I'm sure there's some kinda weapon oil for that.
>>48297189
The backstory for Kestrals is that a bunch of harpies were harassing a halfling village. Some hotshot paladin came in and decided to convert the harpies to good instead of just smiting them, and went through a bunch of hoops to convince the demon-worshiping hedonists that being pleasant people is more rewarding than worshiping a demon lord. Harpies were convinced, moved in with the halflings, and the result was kestrals.
>>48297339
Doesn't a +3 weapon count as silver for damage reduction?
>>48297358
I want it for Mithral Current silver vulnerability stuff.
>>48297362
Make it out of Mithral, or be a Soulknife.
>>48297396
Mithral doesn't count as silver for mithral current, does it?
>>48297320
Imo, Sleeping Goddess, Solar Wind, and Veiled Moon. Probably Veiled Moon. It's got much higher-level prerequisites but that shit's hilarious.
>>48297409
>>48297396
Is there really no way to make an an adamantine weapon also count as silver?
I checked the alchemical silver thing and it explicitly states that it won't work on adamantine gear.
>>48297409
Mithral does indeed count as silver, and lacks a damage penalty.
>>48297442
I don't actually know shit about blacksmithing but because adamantine is a made-up fake metal can't you just say your sword is made of adamantine-silver alloy and call it a day?
I mean, it's not in the rules, but...
>>48297443
For the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, apparently I was wrong on that count. That wouldn't apply for vulnerability, though.
Tossing in some food for thought /pfg/, tell me your thoughts.
-The hunter's animal companion functions at 1half/2× their level.
-The ranger gets hunter's bond at 1st level and functions at effectively on par druid level.
-The ranger and paladin casts spells at 1st level and can cast up to 6th level spells.
-Fighter/(un)chained rogue/ (un)chained barb/(un)chained monk archetypes can continually stack on top of each other in spite of not being able to.
>>48297442
Well there's the 8th-level MC stance
Plus a couple MC manuevers
And the last MC style feat
Actually I'm pretty sure the silversheen magic item would work, it would just suppress the adamantine-ness at the same time.
The problem is practically everything that makes your weapon "count as" a material only mentions for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. I'm not sure if this was intentional, in order to make regeneration and such harder to overcome, or if they just forgot that special materials can matter for reasons other than damage reduction.
>>48297623
wtf I hate honey now
>>48297708
fuck you dude change your mind right now
bees are awesome
>>48297739
>>48297708
>>48297708
>>48297708
This isn't helping.
>>48297708
You're eating bee semen
>>48297913
Bee puke, actually.
I have a ton of DEX.
Is Combat Reflexes worth it even though I'm not using a reach weapon?
>>48297956
No.
What's the best class to fuck over one enemy? Witches? Some of my team like to turn into bloody mists by being combat stupid so I want to give them a fighting chance at least.
Hey, wait, do locked creatures provoke AoO for trying to break out? It says they make a move action, then attempt to break lock, and are treated as if they had moved even if they fail. Seems like it would provoke!
Talking about Fool's Errand, to clarify.
I have exactly 2200gp.
What's the best +1 thing to put on my katana?
Keen?
>>48297623
How would the stacking work? Just ignore what is being replaced?
>>48297996
Nope. It doesn't say it does, and isn't in a category defined to provoke, so it doesn't.
Also, breaking out of a grapple doesn't provoke either, as a note.
>>48298046
Yeah
>>48298035
Keen, Impact, Linked Striking, Vicious.
Although hilariously, the cheapest yet most destructive enhancement bonus is Sapping + Merciful which does 3d6 nonlethal damage
>>48298105
>tfw you're nonlethal-focused rogue and you fight undead
>>48298035
Courageous if you have anyone at all in the party who can give morale bonuses. It's flexible and powerful.
>>48298035
+1, because with only 2200 you can't put anything else on it.
>>48298105
Says Linked Striking is a +2, anon
>>48298148
Huh?
I thought once the weapon had the +1 on it, your enchanter buddy NPC can convert the +1 into an ability?
I mean, most abilities simply state "+#" as their cost.
>>48298168
No, you have to have a +1 before adding any other abilities. Adding, not changing. You can't change abilities into other abilities unless your DM house rules it, and even then that wouldn't get rid of the +1 requirement (again, unless your dm house rules it.)
Even having someone craft a weapon for you would still cut the difference from 8000-2000=6000 gp, which when crafted would be 3000 gp cost.
>>48298035
Samurai or Bushi, right?
Instead of spending on a pisspoor +1 weapon enchantment, grab a Scabbard of Honing and Scabbard of Vigor. Both are great and if your DM allows, you can just combine the price of both to make a single scabbard instead.
>>48298072
>>48297623
So I could make an armor master-weapon master-sword lord?
Fucking wat
>>48298186
Wait, you're telling me that something like a Flaming Longsword isn't possible and you have to go for a +1 Flaming Longsword that costs 8000 frickin' gp?
What the hell?
That's ridiculous.
>>48298242
Yes.
Player in my campaign wants to be a Magus using Words of Power. It seems pretty shit for prepared casters though, so he's asked if he can be a spontaneous casting Magus. Would that buff be fair?
The other players in the campaign are a Wizard and a Witch, so I doubt he'll unbalance anything.
>>48297981
Yeah, Witches are terrifying. Evil eye the saves, cackle so that even if they make the save, it stays on them. Evil eye them again on attack rolls,then misfortune. Now they're rolling two D20s to each attack and save, and picking the lowest, and both are at decent penalties. Target the meanest things you can with this, and pop off an enervation. Target is likely not a problem anymore, and can be killed at leisure. Slumber is good too, doesn't fall off the way sleep does. Just remember cackle lets you add one round of effectiveness to a hex, and you can use a move action to cackle, or double cackle in a turn, to make your mean debuff hexs last until the enemy is in the ground.
>>48298256
That's absolutely ridiculous!
You need to be like level 8 to have a semi-decent weapon!
>>48298242
That's been the rule for the past 16 years minimum.
>>48298282
u wot
>>48298282
Most of the time, murderhobos just loot magical gear off of things they kill.
>Spending wealth on weapons
>>48298196
Might make those classes actually helpful for fucking once
>>48298282
I mean, if you wanted a semi-decent weapon you'd get something better than a +1 flaming.
>>48298284
To be fair, it's a retarded rule. Always has been.
>>48298322
NO you automatically get your expected WBL in items of your choice at all times otherwise your DM is a terrible bad person and you should play without them
>>48298336
So are many of the d20 rules, though.
>>48298322
>>Spending wealth on weapons
>find +1 frost sword in dungeon
>this is literally all you're getting from level 5 to level 6
>it could've been like 4 cool wondrous items instead
>the damage increase is fucking laughable too
i 'fixed' magical weapons and armor costs by making players collect 'Qanthurium"
Its an alloy that drops the cost of crafting magical arms and armor by 1k for each ore spent (max 5k).
>>48297623
>>48298391
>try to sell it so you can buy useful things
>shops jew you super hard
>>48298391
I actually find it pretty insane that something as utterly useless as a +1 corrosive dagger counts for so much WBL if you keep it instead of selling it.
>>48298393
>Qanthurium
Is Second Darkness any good? We're going to begin a new AP soon, and I've been looking at that and seems neat in concept.
>dirty peasant martials scrounging up gold for paltry baubles like weapons and armor
>not being a godlike caster and conjuring metal out of thin air, summoning jinns to wish for a mountain of mithral or crafting wondrous items at half price (then selling them back at its original price thanks to my high intelligenc because INT to Bluff/Diplomacy is a thing because Paizo loves me)
>>48298279
>>48297981
I'm leaving and can't answer any more witch questions, but here are the four guides I've used to build witches. They all overlap a little, but the all make good points. http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=480.0 http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n6ke?The-Viking-Irishmans-Witch-Guide https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YkARuboGbaCVdOpcgoA0epQFqBlCygzzUsgaBdba9BE/edit?pli=1 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1avH5AFYaZ838OC_W7BY_Bnt1TH9KGCc2ygTOb0CiYu0/edit?hl=en_US hope this helps your friends turn into red paste just slightly less often
>>48298196
Fucking wat, no fucking wat
>>48298472
See pic related
>>48298496
We've been over this before. If you don't want people to play a class tell them that, don't make bullshit unfun rules just to spite people.
>>48298322
>Get my GM to give me innate WBL so I can unlock the mysterious powers of my dad's heirloom sword (rather than buying a better one or getting it enchanted)
>mfw I realize how fucking expensive weapon enchantments are
>mfw I realize innate WBL gives me 30% less wealth
>mfw I realize I can't get this shit enchanted for cheap by asking a wizard NPC
>mfw I realize I have to spend a bunch of innate WBL on effects like heavyload belt and boots of the cat etc and can't save it
>mfw I realize old papa's sword is going to be complete shit for the whole campaign because our games always dry up at level 7 or so
>>48298505
It's not bullshit unfun rules, you're just mad your precious casters are being reined in with well designed mechanics.
>>48298533
Oh, sorry, here's the (you) you were searching for.
>>48298532
Be a black blade magus, what are you doing?
>>48298533
I bet you liked the Kineticist too, don't ya faggot?
Yo anons,
I'm going to be making some homebrew bloodlines for the Bloodrager, anyone have any requests for bloodlines they'd like made for when I share them?
>>48298539
Ok.
>>48298505
>If you don't want people to play a class tell them that, don't make bullshit unfun rules just to spite people.
My, it's quite amusing that this fits Paizo and martials so well.
>>48298552
That's not what your mom said last night.
>>48298542
Trying to play an initiator, anon.
>>48298573
That was your first mistake.
>>48298571
>The Healing Church.gif
>>48298606
It's usually a good idea!
>>48298606
(You)
>>48298628
Not sure if you want this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/bladebound
Could also archetype it with hexcrafter for unlimited hexes.
If a vermin creatures is intelligent (in this case, a Worm that Walks wizard), does it lose its Mindless quality from being a Vermin? Beyond that, if it loses its Mindless trait, does it loss its immunity to mind-affecting effects?
Currently fighting one, and my DM and I can't find an answer in the rules.
>>48298639
>>48298615
>>48296751
Is Pathfinder some form of Tactical D&D?
I only ever see people discussing strategic "character builds" and class combinations, so is it just a rollplaying game for introverts who'd rather cook up character designs for short-term games that go nowhere?
>>48298731
(you)
>>48298560
I tried to fix fighters by giving them magic weapons early through an archetype.
Please, tell me what you think, /pfg/
http://pastebin.com/FuHBfu1g
Its essentially a spell-less magus.
But with a full BAB, the ability to use magus' arcane pool to add weapon enchantments to their weapon, along with magus arcanas, and arcane strike (and its associated feat trees), bonus item crafting feats at the same pace a wizard gets them, and is still a fighter thus granting it access to advanced weapon training.
Its a decently good way to buff the fighters.
The only things it loses out on is Armor Training, the loss of heavy armor proficiency and tower shield proficiency.
>>48298731
They were built by repugnant colossaltard autists, ignore them.
>>48298731
>stormwind fallacy
Also, PF as a system heavily up punishes suboptimal builds, unless you have a DM willing to go far to bend the game over and around really hard for the players
>>48298404
That face looks just like Ygritte from Game of Thrones.
>>48298748
Are you even involved in an ongoing campaign?
Have you ever reached double-digit level in a D&D game legitimately?
Do any of these meticulously plotted out high level character combos ever come to fruition?
Genuinely curious.
Is there a way to increase a weapon's crit modifier that's not some kind of class feature?
I'm hoping for an enchantment or a wondrous item or something.
>>48298467
I liked it
>>48298776
The facial expression is saying "fucking autists infesting this place like a goddamn plague".
>>48298793
Yes, I'm currently in one and running one.
Yes.
Yes, and as a dm I build around them to maker enemies still a threat through multiple different methods but not entirely invalidate builds.
>>48298797
There's one for bows, if I recall.
But it was nerfed to shit by Paizo.
>>48298797
Improved Critical, keen.
Wat
Did you even attempt to Google?
>>48298824
I said modifier, not threat, you mongoloid.
>>48298688
The mindless trait specifically references having an intelligence score, so I would think so.
>>48298814
>but not entirely invalidate builds.
When this is the prime consideration for a game, can you even call it a "Roleplaying Game" anymore? Why should Muh Build, be the central focus of a social game? Doesn't it reduce the game to Robot Wars with imaginary heroes?
>>48298776
Nothing wrong with that, especially since she's a lot bulkier than Ygritte who was canonically a scrawny slut.
>>48298833
That's not what your mom said last night.
>>48298839
>Stormwind Fallacy: The Post
>>48296751
>What's your favorite fantasy world?
I bet most of the anons in this thread has never adventured in Faerun.
>>48298851
>>48298839
Because there's roleplaying. Mechanics are still important. It's not necessarily primarily a social game. And even if people want to play that way it's not badwrong fun.
(you)
>>48298688
Also, worms thats walks are explicitly susceptible to mind-affecting effects.
>>48298839
It hurts roleplay when the awesome knight consistently gets his ass beat in battle and hasn't actually slain a single foe for the past 10 sessions.
>>48298840
Not saying there is anything wrong with that, and she couldn't have been that scrawny being as good an archer as she was.
>>48298878
This. Nothing is worse than a class not doing what it advertised itself doing.
>>48298878
Maybe the 3000 pages of character mechanics and detailed charts for blowing your nose distract the DM from creating balanced fights?
Maybe the laundry list of combat modifiers make the game so overly complex that anyone who isn't min-maxed precisely can't compete adequately?
>>48298909
Keep posting please, this is more enjoyable than the past few threads anyways.
>>48297623
At what point do you fucking stop stacking on archetype?
>>48298839
>>48298909
>(You)
Listen man, "having rules" and "having fun" aren't mutually exclusive. Neither is "builds" and "roleplay". If there weren't any rules and anyone could do whatever, all it turns into is a Mother May I situation where you're playing an improv session with one guy as the director and everyone else as shitty actors who can get their roles killed-off if the director wants it. That might be fun for you, I don't know. But just because there are rules and mechanics and the like, does NOT mean the same as things not being fun or interesting or exciting.
So once more,
>(You)
so...uh...
Has anyone noticed that fighters are complete shit?
I just did some serious math, and I after turning my somewhat-not-autist fighter archer build into a full-on-pol-tard-robot fighter archer the warpriest still blows it out of the fucking water in every possible way.
On the first round of combat, if the warpriest has literally 0 prep, the fighter does more damage. After that the warpriest just wins, and the warpriest isn't even mr. autismo ether.
>>48298864
Faerun is shit.
Eberron represent!
>>48298909
>distract the DM from creating balanced fights
Yeah that's logical, I'm sure that happens all the time
>>48298873
Oh, interesting. Our knowledge checks weren't good enough to know that, but I think it's more likely the DM didn't realize than that he decided not to say, because he had to look up the template.
Anyway, it's a swarm of worms now, so we're blasting it with AoE spells.
>>48298864
That's honestly for the best. "Hey, let's go do this thing"
>Level 40+ god lich teleports in, murders party because they saw far enough into the future to know they're a threat.
>Level 40+ Elminster teleports in, resurrects the party for the same reason
>Mystra dies yet again.
>>48298909
Min-maxers are turbo-Autists that craft stupid complex builds to play around other stupid complex builds.
You need to understand, anon, that for most of us we don't have a problem with making Cavaliers or Barbarians, that the vast majority of campaigns don't call for the degree of precision that some of us sperg about here.
You're taking the idle prattle of geeks dorking out on ways to break a poorly built system as evidence they use these builds in their beer-and-pretzels game.
>>48298533
Problem is they didn't remove the bullshit spells that made casters cheese in 3.5.
Dunno who was the sperg who thought that for example summoning a creature able to cast Dimensional Gate so he can shit endless Planar beings to rape the shit out of everything a good idea.
Do these fucks play the game they designed?
>>48298961
>Has anyone noticed that fighters are complete shit?
>>48298864
>>48298963
Greyhawk > Dark Sun > Forgotten Realms > Planescape > Eberron (kek 'airships') > Ravenloft
>>48298929
Just seems that all the hours spent pouring over splatbooks to make the mechanically super-effective character might be better used to create an interesting background and entertaining personality for said character.
That in the context of a social sit-down roleplaying game, you'd get more value from a good idea than from a precision-tweaked kill-bot.
I too have Le Funny Images, do you actually have anything to contribute to the conversation?
>>48298487
Thanks a ton for the help
>>48298998
Vecna and Elminster are shitty sues.
Mordenkainen is a moral relativist pussy.
Bigby is a bro.
>>48298864
I did pre-Faerun explosion in 3.5, it was cool but too many powerful figures out there.
>>48298961
>Shitposter saving us from stormwind baiting.
I really don't know how I feel about this.
>>48299016
>and then the shitposter levels up and hits me in the feels
>>48299016
>has ignored all the posts that actually answer his questions
This is some Paizo level avoidance here
>>48299016
All the hours spent making an interesting backstory to a character could also be used for further your life goals. Character creation isn't zero-sum, you can make a mechanically fun character while still having an interesting backstory.
>>48299010
That's even supposing the GM's going to put up with those shenanigans and not slapping that player's shit ten ways to Sunday.
Powerspergers seem to think their builds exist in a vacuum with no oversight whatsoever.
>>48299052
Except they both cost time, which IS zero-sum.
>>48298556
Bumping this question to save us from the retard stormwind fag
>>48299060
By that logic, everything you do is wasting time that you could be using to create better character backgrounds, including this conversation. You already fucked up.
>>48298556
I would just make all of the current ones better. There is no reason to not go arcane/abberant right now, so if you just take the existing ones and turn them into something worth picking it would be awesome.
>>48299012
>planescape that low
fite me irl faggot
>>48299016
>Just seems that all the hours spent pouring over splatbooks to make the mechanically super-effective character might be better used to create an interesting background and entertaining personality for said character.
>That in the context of a social sit-down roleplaying game, you'd get more value from a good idea than from a precision-tweaked kill-bot.
One thing that always confuses me about this argument is the idea that these things are mutually-exclusive. My group tends to spend hours pouring over sourcebooks and discussing builds at the /exact same time/ as discussing characterization, backstory, personality, and character relationships.
Sometimes we end up finding some neat mechanic during this process and shifting backstory to include it, and just as often someone comes up with a neat fluff idea that requires a shift in mechanics to support it.
Ideally, a character is both well-written and well-built, with the writing supporting the build (including refluffs as needed) and the build supporting the writing (because if you can't DO the things you say you can or did, then something went wrong. This is the problem with stuff like fighters and monks).
There's also the fact that in a great many cases where great character ideas come from odd mechanical interactions. Class combinations, feats, abilities, etc, are all amazing sources of inspiration for the starting points of a character. Why WOULDN'T someone optimize when there's a vast trove of cool stuff to write into a character as being able to do, as well as a vast trove of ideas to represent within the game?
Optimizing a character and building a backstory are one and the same for the best roleplayers.
Powergamers and minmaxingmunchkins seem to forget the GM is there to slap your shit. Repeatedly and with a chair.
>>48298961
Uh, yes? That's been obvious since the beginning of PF. Just about the only advantage they have is that they function better on turn 1 if there isn't a surprise round in a game where combat is usually 2-3 rounds long.
>>48299052
>Character creation isn't zero-sum, you can make a mechanically fun character while still having an interesting backstory.
That's interesting, because in decades playing this game I've noticed that excessive time spent on optimizing a character leads to a dearth of time spent on a backstory.
If a legitimate backstory CAN be conceived for some of the race/class/multiclass combinations out there.
>>48299054
Yeah you can houserule a shit ton of shit still to avoid cheese or major bullshit, but there are so many broken stuff in this game that sometimes we figure out by accident and we have to interrupt the session in order to balance it and that rustle my jimmies because it simply breaks the flow of the game.
>>48299060
Yes, and you're also wasting your life by playing a ttrpg. If the time spent making a character competent directly takes away from making a character interesting then you're wasting your life being a failure instead of learning a valuable skill that'll help you succeed.
>>48299088
[citation needed]
>>48297623
>-The hunter's animal companion functions at 1half/2× their level.
I'm assuming this means at half level? If so, fuuuuuck you.
>The ranger gets hunter's bond at 1st level and functions at effectively on par druid level.
So they're a worse casting Hunter? Fuuuuuck you.
>-The ranger and paladin casts spells at 1st level and can cast up to 6th level spells.
Reasonable, but now why do the Hunter and Warpriest exist?
>-Fighter/(un)chained rogue/ (un)chained barb/(un)chained monk archetypes can continually stack on top of each other in spite of not being able to.
I don't even know what the fuck you're trying to say here: the martial classes can take Archetypes that buy off features they no longer have? They can take Archetypes that all change the same feature as long as they don't trade it away in full? They can take multiple Archetypes but they must not conflict (which they can do anyway)? Fuuuuuck you for not being clear.
So you're 3 fuck yous out of four, which is bad. The main things you seem to be trying to fix are martials not getting class abilities worth a damn and the shared existence of the Hunter and Ranger.
The latter is easy: pick one and delete the other. You can just say no, like DARE. If that bothers you, count the Ranger among the martial ranks and let them stack shit like Guide, Trapper and Freebooter to make them a Full BAB striker that isn't the Slayer. Or, use the first and third options, excise the Hunter and tell people to play a Nature Fang Druid if they want a more caster focused pet class.
The former is hard: the Unchained Rogue and either Barbarian punch at about the highest weight a pure martial can: URogue as a mobile single shot striker/debuffer (Scout + Rake/Thug, focused on Intimidate and/or Sap Mastery) and Barbarian as a facefucking charge build that can turn into a tank at the level martials stop mattering. (Beast Totem + CAGM). The Fighter and Monk can get there, but with specific Archetypes.
>>48298961
>>48299092
Have archetypes stack to give them more options. No one would need to build a generic fighter.
>>48299036
>Bigby is a bro.
>Bigby's Dextrous Digits
>Bigby's Helpful Hand
>Bigby's Grasping Hand
>Bigby's Groping Hand
>Bigby's Feeling Fingers
Nah, Bigby is just a bard with a magical realm.
>>48299074
No. Just because it is zero-sum doesn't mean that the returns are linear. Spending x time making a decent build and x time building a cool backstory could be much better than spending 2x time making an above decent build and then playing a fighter with 7 wiz, cha, and int and nothing more than a name.
>>48299087
>these things are mutually-exclusive
it's not that one means you can't have the other, it's that having ether of them costs time.
>>48299108
>You are wasting your life when you have fun.
Literally false.
>>48299114
I think he's trying to saying 1 and a half/two times their level.
>>48299104
Been playing for 16 years now and my experience is the opposite. The people who are invested in mechanics tend to be the most invested in fluff, and the people who don't care about mechanics tend to be the worst roleplayers.
I'm sorry your groups have a different experience.
>>48299088
>>48299054
That's because games like Pathfinder "empower" them with reams of Official Rulebooks who's primary mission is to make monies over enhancing the game in any real way.
I bought the Intrigue book last month, hoping to get some inspiration for a 5e campaign, and found the entire thing a shit-mess of unecessary mechanics for things like finding clues in a Library.
>>48299132
>You are wasting your life when you have fun.
But this is exactly what you're telling us.
>>48299060
>waaaagh, I'm a retard who can't be arsed to make a character that is both an interesting character to RP, and can actually be competant at his job without begging for GM handouts
>>48299088
My GM actually helps us out build optimized characters, because he want the party to be competent enough to make it through and adventure so everyone has fun and can contribute equally.
>>48299149
Instead of releasing more retarded mechanics, they should pick some time and clear all the mess in the game, fuck I'd buy a huge errata book if that meant the end of the cheese.
>>48299154
>My GM actually helps us out build optimized characters, because he want the party to be competent enough to make it through and adventure so everyone has fun and can contribute equally.
This. My DM and group work together to have well-built characters because being competent makes for a more fun game of pretend elf fantasy superheroes
Also, the DM's job isn't to slap the players' shit. The DM is another player at the table, and ideally everyone is friends. If you find yourself having to slap players' shit, then something went wrong with the social contract of gaming, oooor you're power-tripping. One or the other. Try discussing it like adults.
>>48299174
But all their errata is terrible
>powergaming is bad and you should feel bad
>tabletop games are a waste of time
Sounds like some retards in this thread got lost on theirs way to PFS.
>>48299174
I think it's the business model at this point, I can't see them abandoning it now.
>>48299174
That'd be fantastic if >>48299183 weren't totes true.
>>48299060
Maybe for you, chuckles.
Characters just come to me as I'm perusing mechanics. It's basically like 90% delegated to my subconscious.
>>48299183
Like a well thought errata, not the woops we messed up here lets nerf something and make it useless and call a day while leaving 300 other stuff broken. But yeah like >>48299190 and >>48299198 pointed I'm just dreaming at this point
>>48299181
>The DM is another player at the table
The DM is the narrator of a story the players are actors in. The DM is also the ensemble of minor characters, but they are NOT a player or an actor in the story.
Unless you play some freeform "everyone makes up what happens next" sort of game.
So, I don't watch the PoW developer stuff that closely, but I know some of them have done some work on some pretty good disciplines and stuff. Are there any solid, balanced disciplines based on luck or gambling that are available yet? I'm working up a wandering vagabond/gambler type character, and I'd love a disciple that fits if there's one someone's been working on.
>>48299216
play·er
noun
1. a person taking part in a sport or game.
>>48299213
The sheer volume and rate of release pretty much precludes the idea of anything being balanced any longer.
>>48299216
>Unless you play some freeform "everyone makes up what happens next" sort of game.
Not him, but even though the GM is responsible for presenting the story, after same time the players should have the feeling that their choices and agency matters, and that the world should react adequately to their own actions and not just have the world do nothing but railroad and choose the players actions for them
>>48299247
Umpires and Referees take part in games and are not players.
Directors take part in filming stories but are not "actors".
Try again.
>>48299216
The DM is the narrator of a story, yes. The players have the agency to act on the story that the DM makes up, and to change it through their actions.
At the same time, the DM only has the power that the players have willingly given them. They have a different role at the table and more control over the narrative, but as a result must work around the players' ability to exercise their more limited control over the narrative.
They are not special, nor are they "in charge." DMing is a representative democracy, not a dictatorship.
Personally, I like my players to take a more heavy hand in setting details. I encourage them to come up with NPCs to slot in, past events to reference (and ad-lib in response to), and things for their characters to play off of. It's all part of the game. The story isn't MINE when I DM; all I provide is the world and the framework.
The story? That's OURS.
>>48298556
Shadow, Starsoul
>>48299263
Oh, I completely agree that the players should help to drive the narrative.
But the DM is the person establishing location, broad events, the NPCs present, ect..
Optimally the DM builds a large sandbox that the players explore and can even build inside, but that still doesn't elevate the players to the level of mini-DMs.
>>48296934
>>48297106
>(You either need to take your move action to sheathe your weapon, turning all strikes into full attack equivalents in terms of how much of your turn they take up, or you keep a bunch of cheap daggers sheathed on your person and draw a new one with every strike, dropping it as a free action right after)
Or you play a Soulknife to 5th level and trait into Mithral Current. That's how I did it, anyway.
>>48299114
>cont'd
Now the question you have to ask yourself is this: what am I trying to accomplish with these buffs? Am I trying to increase the overall level of the martials to T3? Am I trying to keep them relevant past level 12? Level 7? Because those all require different things, most of which an Archetype not scratch-built might not provide.
If you want those classes to be powerful or meaningful past level 6 without having to be an optimizing sperglord, see what said sperglords use and make that the default.
Ex: Every Chained Monk made by an optimizing sperglord is a Qinggong Monk. So you would give your houseruled Chained Monk that Archetype for free. Every optimized Barbarian gets the Beast Totem chain + CAGM, so you build that into the class. Every optimized Rogue at least takes Scout, so you build that Archetype into the class, along with some Intimidate focused Strike for the URogue.
Fighter is harder because there are so many choices and they all do so very little. I'd start by giving all Fighters the Lore Warden 4+Int skill points, as well as Versatile (Armor) Training for free. From there, I'd see what the optimizing spergs use on top of that, and make the money bits class skills. This should push said classes into high T4 at least: as long as they get these on top of their normal stuff.
Now staying alive past 12? That requires some fuck you magic (or a fuck you to magic) and is entirely based on what your group considers okay or can even do with a full caster. If nobody ever uses Greater Teleport/Scry and Die/Planar Binding, you don't have to keep up with the Joneses. If they do, then you need to know what tasks a high level group of adventurers must be able to accomplish.
>>48299294
Except by raw there's no way of mindblades targeting silver vulnerability so yeah
>>48299269
>They are not special, nor are they "in charge."
Just because you have an especially well-behaved, mature and focused party, does not reduce the fact that you, as the DM are in charge of the game.
>>48299352
No, because, as noted, it's a social contract. My players can and would walk if I crossed lines or made the game unfun, though they'd probably bring up the problems and discuss it.
My job as the DM is not to be in charge of the game, but to ensure that everyone's having fun while I vaguely steer the game in the right direction, and direct the world in response to the players' actions. That includes making sure I have fun, but I am very much not "in charge."
The other players have willingly trusted me to direct parts of the story with the expectation that I won't betray that trust. There's nothing to be in charge of, it's just a part of a group dynamic. How is this a hard concept?
I'm interested in trying out different classes, the problem is, I'm accustomed to the on the fly customization that the wizard and other 9th casters offer which let you play them any number of ways based on what spell combos you prepare for the day.
Are there any tier 3's and below that offer something similar? Most classes like Magus and Warpriest seem to be all about dealing damage and not much else. An alchemist with high point buy can freely go from melee, bombing and any number of out of combat roles which is nice, and I suppose some flavor of summoner can mix it up to an extent.
Lets keep it 1PP only please.
>>48299266
This is silly semantics
You are all, together, playing a game called pathfinder (or whatever).
Anon's original point was that you're all on the same side to make a good story, it should not be an adversarial relationship
>>48299408
Bard, Investigator, Inquisitor
>>48299294
Then don't take those maneuvers. I was responding to a discussion on how to get the "when you draw your weapon" benefits, not the "vulnerability to silver" benefits.
>>48299412
At no point did I imply there had to be some adversarial nature to the player/DM relationship.
You've had all manner of relationships with older relatives/bosses/coaches who were in charge without it being adversarial.
>>48299464
Ugh, meant to quote >>48299316. It's been a long day.
>>48299398
You seem to be confusing "running" the campaign and establishing rules with "I am a railroading adversarial tryant telling you what to do".
>>48299467
I know, you latched onto a comment about the DM and players working together to bring up your own pet definition issue
>>48299500
You seem to be confusing the idea that the DM is just another player with "I just play freeform"
>>48299408
Brawler is a damage dealing class, but it's not locked into a build. Martial Flexibility lets you change from damage to disables to whatever you need, albeit only what you need in a fight.
>>48299505
Of course DMs and players have to work together, but that has nothing to do with the idea that running the structure of a game is some form of super-democracy where no one is in charge.
>>48299531
I fucking know, you're the one who brought up this concept in the first place.
>>48299531
It's not that "no one" is in charge; it's that thinking of anyone as "in charge" is a problem, because the game survives and thrives on the social contract created when the players trust the DM to make a good and fun story for them, and the DM trusts the players not to break it in half.
If you don't have trust going both ways, you have a dysfunctional group.
>>48299236
Nope.
Closest is Cursed Razor, which is mostly based upon heaping misfortune onto your foe, and stealing their luck for yourself.
>>48299054
Yeah, it's amazing how many people think that a gm, will, say, give their animal companions full and unfettered access to fucking path of war.
Rate my punchman please.
I've never made an unarmed character before.
http://pastebin.com/J72bv5Nq
>>48299581
I've yet to run across one? Anecdotal, I know.
>>48299581
Your DMs don't? I'm sorry.
See, my group tends to work together and communicate well in order to make sure we've got neat characters that are all roughly the same power level, and something the DM will enjoy on his end of the table.
Maybe try talking to your DM and group more?
>>48299564
>it's that thinking of anyone as "in charge" is a problem,
The DM is the person who is deciding what is behind door #3
The DM is the person deciding what is in Locked Chest
The DM is optimally deciding whether it's feasible for Player X to go out and "become a vampire cuz they are cool and shit".
Why does the idea of someone being "in charge" trigger you so badly? You are the one having issues with semantics, not I.
>>48299564
Not them, but I think of it this way when I DM: yes, I am "in charge", in the same way that any elected leader is "in charge". Meaning that, if I take actions in my leadership role that anger the people I'm in charge of, instead of working with those people to make the best choices for all of us, I will very quickly be not in charge anymore.
So yeah, I'm in charge of the people who specifically chose to allow me to be in charge of them... a choice that they can revoke at any time, so if I wish to remain in charge, I need to take my position seriously and do the best that I can to make things run smoothly for everybody.
>>48299570
Damn.
Maybe I'll test out my own homebrew skills. Not that I'd ever post it here, since you're all horrible people who hate everything, but I might try to whip something up for myself, anyway.
>>48299581
Animal companions with PoW actually sound pretty fun.
>>48299620
Exactly my point, you are the Guy in Charge, until the group decides they are unhappy with the management and decide to put someone else In Charge.
It's not Barney the Fucking Dinosaurs Hippy Trippy Land of Do As Thou Wilt.
>>48299599
You missed touhoufag sperging about DINOSAURS WITH MANEUVERS earler.
>>48299613
I wouldn't have a problem with it if my DM allowed it. I do have a problem with people using piles of 'this only works when a DM allows it' in theorycrafting.
How useful is Darkvision to a level 5 character?
>>48299637
I've had an animal companion take the Barbarian VMC before, that was pretty fun. Wonder if we'll ever get PoW VMC's? Unless I can find some way to give my companion ranks in Knowledge (Martial) for the initiating feats...
>>48299714
Depends, how often do you need to see in the dark
>>48299723
Probably not. VMCs are marred by paizo being awful at making them.
>>48299714
Unless everybody in your group has darkvision, mostly useless, since you'll need a light source for everyone that doesn't have darkvision anyway.
>>48299730
I'm not sure but the Dimdweller trait for humans replaces Skilled with Darkvision. I'm playing a sneaky slayer-type btw
>48299735
I dunno, man, that Gunslinger VMC looks pretty badass...
>>48299723
PoW VMCs are pretty pointless when they're designed to be multiclass friendly ala ToB and when the feat chains that get you shitload of maneuvers exist.
>>48299775
Okay, fuck this shit, I'm going to bed before I manage to mistype again and delete the internet or something.
>>48299749
It's not worth it. Skilled is great, especially if you want to play stealthy.
