What did they mean by this?
That they don't wish me to continue buying their products.
That emrakul is such a big threat yo pls don't ignore.
>>48287953
They wanted a centerpiece to show off Emrakul's new groove.
Comes off as trying too hard to make an eldritch horror. I dunno I guess I expected this set to be more subtle than it is.
I really liked Gisela. Had her as a commander and everything. Even had the oversized card you got at the prerelease.
I was really excited when they said they were returning to Innistrad. Maybe another great Gisela card? Gisela is pretty and strong and my two favorite colors and fights against evil and...
>>48287961
This.
The expeditions did that for me.
>>48288037
It's okay friend. I know your pain, Gisela was my second favourite angel after Avacyn. She got screwed really badly just for cheap drama.
>>48288037
>I really liked Gisela
>>48288060
>Gisela was my second favourite angel after Avacyn
poor taste general
>>48288037
When I saw they were revisiting Innistrad I excitedly checked the cards for a new Gisela. When I was greeted by... this thing I came to understand that we can never have nice things in MtG.
>>48287985
That u/w fliers will be good.
>>48288121
>poor taste general
I see you've got the ball rolling already.
WotC: What kind of expansion do you want, fampais?
>>48287985
In the same set that Emrakul got her big reveal, he see the cards that are used to supposedly imprison her.
There was literally a fortnight of suspension between us discovering that the horror of Emrakul and us seeing the Emrakul gets trapped into the moon.
It's the equivalent of a movie trailer ending with the villain it was hyping up getting punched in the mouth.
>>48288294
Average response
>... Can I still stick it in?
>>48288303
Welcome to Two Act sets.
Gissy and Bruna did get two new cards though. You don't have to run both and meld them.
>>48287953
We want the Yugioh audience.
>>48288294
>>48288458
Ditto.
>>48287985
Can brisela be defeated with squirrel nest?
>>48287953
>It's another White Angels/White aligned characters can't be good and must fall/be corrupted episode
>Tied in with an angels are always evil episode
>>48288996
So much this. It was cute when it was Elesh Norn, because the Praetors were the five flavors of evil. It made sense. This isn't the same as that. This is more like
>What characters were popular last time we went to Innistrad?
>Avacyn, Bruna, Gisela, Sigarda, Thalia, Traft
>So let's start with Avacyn getting mindfucked and killed by Sorin
>Oh yeah, that should be a good hook
>And then let's have the Powerpuffs all get corrupted too
>Nah, too obvious, let's have one escape somehow but really ramp it up for the other two
>Fair point, and maybe let Thalia off the hook too while we're at it
>So that means we've gotta think up something REALLY horrible for Siggy and Bruna
>Hey, let's have them get fused into one big pile of horrifically mutated flesh with no personality or individuality
>That sounds like something Lovecraft would do, right?
>I dunno, never read him but it sounds good to me
>And then the JACETICE FRIENDS save the day
>WE ARE GENIUSES
>>48289216
It's such a shame, they really fucked Innistrad up here just for the sake of making the plane into Bloodborne.
>>48289240
Don't worry. Every plane will soon be Mecha-Bloodborne
>>48289240
At least we have Sigarda.
And only sigarda. Because there are no other angels left. Goddamnit.
>>48289216
Lovecraft has done some body horror.
And only 3 major characters ended up fucked, that's pretty good for a plane. Gisa, Ludevic, Geralf, Odric, Thalia, Sigarda, all got out okay.
>>48288303
>>48288422
that, and the way card sets work you get the beginning and end of the set's 'story' released at the same time and you can read both right away.
Even back in the 'three act set' you got the same problem.
If you read the actual story articles the set up and pay off are much better paced. Telling the story through the cards themselves doesn't really work, because cards lack inherent ordering.
>>48289262
Aye but they had to dial up the fucking to 11 to make up for it which is why people are annoyed. Characters dying is one thing but the way they were killed was needlessly dramatic at best and token at worst. I mean Brisela was a thing for how long? We heard nothing about them except a brief bit during A Gaze Blank and Pitiless then the next time we see them they're made out of spaghetti then the next time we see them they die. Two set blocks really make for shit story pacing.
>>48287953
So this is what we're probably in for with the Gatewatch story arc, in no particular order:
>Black and white morality in which the Gatewatch is usually if not always right
>Comic-book villains with shoddy motivations and backstories and few if any redeeming qualities that make the Portalobservers look like saints by comparison
>The locals can never solve problems on their own anymore
>In fact the plot will largely be driven by horrible things happening to the few locals who might have solved the problem without the Walkers who Stare at Gates
>Any negative repercussions of the Doorview's actions are largely handwaved
>>48289216
>That sounds like something Lovecraft would do, right?
corruption and madness were pretty big themes in lovecraft.
SOI did Lovecraft better, as it was more mental and social corruption and less tentacles, but this is a game about throwing monsters at each other so having the tentacles come out in the second set wasn't that bad.
>>48289262
This.
Also, Tameo does the biggest part of the work, followed by Lilliana (not part of the Jacetice league yet), then Sorin.
So is Nahri gonna face any kind of retribution for almost annihilating a plane full of innocent people or is she sacrosanct because Sorin was a big meanie to her?
>>48288784
Maybe not, but Dark Depths + Thespian Stage rips her a new arsehole on turn 4. Truly, Marit Lage is the best creature.
I for one welcome our new cryomancer overlord, and hope she is the villain of the set after Kaladesh.
>>48288996
>all of the Zendikar angels
still good
>Sigarda
Still good
>Angels in Ravnica
same split between good and Arzov that was always there
They've literally only done the 'corrupted angel' thing in sets where corruption of the natural order is a major part of the set.
And white not necessarily being 'good' has been a thing since before the dreaded NWO.
>>48289400
Maro has confirmed she was the primary antagonist of the block. Whether she'll get away is another question, but spoiler alert, some times the bad guys win.
>>48289395
I liked the Rats in the Walls and Color out of Space refs.
>>48289403
>Dark Depths + Thespian Stage
>Putting on a play literally summons an avatar of death
My new favorite combo
>>48289503
It's like the King in Yellow
>>48287953
That WotC enjoys fucking white in the ass by ruining some of the best angels we had access too
>>48289556
That's the idea, yes.
>>48289400
She is a special snowflake womyn. With the way wizards is going, what do you think?
Any attempt at retribution on Nahiri will be met with shrieking from SJWs to stop oppressing Nahiri with your patriarchy, she was justified in ruining Innistrad because she FELT TRIGGERED
>>48289400
>>48289707
>again bringing feminism
I want this meme to stop.
Sorin was an asshole and everything was sorted out like Old School Planeswalker battle. If anything is wrong here it's Zendikar and Innistrad geing saved by Jacetice League.
>>48287953
That if Wizards says they're going back to your favorite plane, start hardening your heart.
>>48289400
This meme is officially dead.
>>48289400
As in, deader than a doornail. It's dead. Even MaRo says that Nahiri's the primary antagonist, a villain and a fucking bad person.
>>48289812
Too late, already cried buckets.
>>48289258
>At least we have Sigarda.
>And the entire Heron flight.
Fixed that for you. Humanity still has 1/3 of the angels completely uncorrupted. They're just not getting cards.
>>48290327
Is there any proof for that? I don't recall it ever being said.
>>48290432
Plane Shift: Innistrad confirmed it.
>>48290432
>>48290471
>"Only Sigarda and the Host of Herons remained unaffected by Avacyn’s madness, perhaps because they were the angels of purity. The survivors of this host retreated to their old haunt in Gavony’s remote parish of Videns to maintain a safe distance from Avacyn."
>>48289812
>Favorite plane is Dominara
Blessing and a curse.
Brisela is like when a corruption doujin goes too far.
>>48288294
This Gisela however is when it goes to the perfect point.
>>48290533
Well, that's certainly good news.
Shame though. I liked the idea of having different multicolored angel flights.
>>48289845
>>48289830
That's not the fucking question, learn2read, the question is if she will suffer some kind of punishment for her actionsAnd no, she won't because muh womyn had reasons
>>48290763
She won't because planeswalking villains always get away in MTG.
You just know that someone at WotC has a corruption fetish.
>>48287953
They needed to worf some good guys in the vain hope Emrakul would seem like a genuine threat when a few weeks later we learn the Gatewatch defeated her shortly after she manifested on the plane, and if somebody needs to get worfed it's almost always an angel.
EMN was a pretty big disappointment, but I knew it was likely to go this way for me since I like Gothic Horror's aesthetics and hate Cosmic Horror. I just hope they're not seriously going to go with "tentacles are a part of Innistrad's look forever now, deal with it."
>>48290763
She will suffer and be defeated at some point because she is a villain, now fuck off and take your /r9k/ rhetoric elsewhere.
>>48287953
They hate Brisela shippers.
>>48289845
How the fuck is Sorin a villain? He might have been misguided, conceited, and more than a bit of a dick but at no point did he concoct a diabolical plan to fuck anyone's day. I would think the bar for being a villain requires some sort of malice beyond being an asshole with neutral to good intentions.
It's telling me that we need Serra to come back (the canonity of her death is seriously in question) and set some good standards for angels.
I just want some happy angels. :c
>>48290995
He eats people and his reaction things going badly was not to look for solutions, but to murder Avacyn to appease the evilest vampire in Innistrad in order to conduct a campaign of vengeance on Nahiri and the cult.
>>48290995
I suppose what he did to Nahiri was a serious dick move, but I would say "villainous" is a stretch. It was SUPER-douchey, but it was a stupid fight brought on by Sorin and Nahiri's combined pride and stubbornness that got everyone in this mess to begin with, not a diabolical scheme.
I suppose from Nahiri's perspective, Sorin is a villain who betrayed her and left her world to die to protect his own, but from what we've seen Sorin was ashamed of his actions a thousand years ago and tried to make things right by checking in on Zendikar to maintain the lock since he couldn't free Nahiri.
They meant "Remember, they came as three."
This was Emrakul's attempt to bring the numbers back up since the other Titans died. It's a replacement Ulamog.
>>48291016
We have happy Angels. Bant has happy Angels.
Honestly, most of OG innistrad block was devoted to sad Angels.
>>48291016
Boros had some excellent angels, and still does. They just made Thugrelia their poster child.
>>48291051
They did have a good ending, though, although everybody bitched about it.
I personally liked that Innistrad's one of the first times I've seen someone do a horror setting that has angels and didn't need to resort to the tired old "W-Well, evil still exists in this horror setting because angels are assholes" cliche most go for. The angels weren't dicks, they were just outnumbered and, at the time of our introduction to them, without their leader.
Then SOI ruined that, but eh.
>>48291081
Given how much people were clamoring for white villains, I am surprised how bad the reaction is towards RW crusade Angels and Nahiri.
>>48287953
>What'rakul did'rakul they'rakul mean'rakul by'rakul this'rakul?
ftfy'rakul
>>48291046
>I suppose from Nahiri's perspective, Sorin is a villain who betrayed her and left her world to die to protect his own, but from what we've seen Sorin was ashamed of his actions a thousand years ago and tried to make things right by checking in on Zendikar to maintain the lock since he couldn't free Nahiri.
>"well from my point of view the jedi are evil"
>wotc actually thinks this is good writing
>>48291081
>Then SOI ruined that, but eh.
you mean changed.
Because if you were expecting SOI to just be a retread of the same conflicts and themes as original Innistrad, you were never going to get that. Because that set already existed.
>>48291105
People seem to keep on going "white villains" while ignoring that Phyrexia is primarily white now, Heliod was a white villain, the evil order on the next plane is primarily white-aligned...
It's not a fucking new concept. Stop treating it like it is.
>>48291105
That's a shitty way to do White villains. If this is what people wished for, they got Monkey's Pawed.
>>48291050
That's sad and messed up at the same time. She's trying to make replacements for her little brothers, but they will never be quite the same.
>>48289465
I love lovecraft but completely missed the Rats and Color allusions. What are they?
Chitering host and.....
>>48291151
What we really need is Green villains.
>>48291142
What I wanted was angels getting pressed in the corner and needing to form an unlikely alliance with the demons they have always fought against the eldritch abominations descending from the sky to destroy their world.
What I got was a load of shit.
>>48291173
Is color out of space that Eldrazi Reflection Aurora thing?
>>48291173
Cryptolith Fragment/Aurora of Emrakul
>>48291151
>evil order
>Kaladesh
>keeping Chandra down
I dunno, that sounds like a 100% noble cause to me, bro.
>>48291182
Green villains, Black heroes, really they just need to be less worried about reminding us that 'White can be evil guys it's Law not Good' every 5 minutes.
>>48291184
Yeah. Showing everyone on Innistrad, monsters and angels included uniting against Eldrazi would have been cooler.
>>48291213
This.
When was the last time Green was villainous? Lorwyn? Or does that not count because Rhys was also Green?
>>48291173
>>48291173
Rancid Rats and Cryptolith Fragment.
>>48291232
Phyrexia, I'd say, the green praetor and corrupted Glissa were pretty nasty.
Theros...maybe? I mean, Xenagos was half-green and Nylea was a douche even if she did help Elspeth out.
>>48291227
They did that with Zendikar and Vampire Allies and whatnot and you hated it.
>>48291184
>>48291227
So basically Zendikar. What were you expecting? "Human Ally Werewolf" doesn't fit on the type line very well.
>>48291046
He's arrogant, selfish, cruel, and cold. He'll act for the greater good if that good also helps him, but he's completely willing to fuck others over, or let entire planes die if he feels it's in his personal interest.
Nahiri is vengeful and ruthless. Willing to act for the greater good, even willing to sacrifice herself for it, but uncaring about who she hurts in getting way. She didn't want the people on innistrad to suffer, she just didn't give a damn about them so long as she was able to make Sorin suffer as much as possible.
They are both capable of being villains, and both have a distinct personality and reasoning for the bad things they did.
People on /tg/ just seem to like selfish pragmatism, over passionate vindictiveness
>>48291232
>>48291213
>>48291182
Green villains are supposedly hard to write unless you go full treehugger or survival of the fittest because besides their nature shit, they are defined by not walking to interfere.
>>48291232
It's pretty easy to make green antagonists but villains is a bit trickier.
>>48291248
I feel fucking stupid now. That's so obvious.
>>48291232
Nissa on Zendikar.
>>48291184
they went for the corruption and madness route.
Given that they already did eldrazi as open all consuming threat, that would basically be a complete retread of Zendikar.
And using corruption and madness, they were able to bring Lovecraftian elements into Innistrads gothic horror, which I personally thought was neat as Lovecrafts biggest contribution was bringing otherworldly monsters being created in the pulp sci-fi of the time and merging it with elements from older gothic horror.
>>48291321
Except corruption and madness and body horror just makes it seem like Emrakul's a discount phyrexian superweapon rather than a world-consuming monstrosity. Emrakul was a lot more intimidating when it was a silent, drifting island of annihilation than Meme'rakul.
I didn't want the Eldrazi on Innistrad at all, but it was clear that was what they were going for, so the conflicts and tribal dynamics already in play there ended up turning to tentacles and allies-only-we're-not-using-that-tribe-this-time.
>>48291294
Make it a fuckoff huge beast that has decided an entire Plane is it's hunting grounds. Make it sentient enough to recognize that the people it is hunting are also sentient, but decide that just makes them more worthwhile prey. A sort of classic Beowulf style monster story could be fun with all the grandiose shit that's been going on lately. If you have to involve Planeswalkers, pick some junior leagues like Domri and Tibalt.
>>48291257
Phyrexia was evil across all colours, not really a prime example of Green taking centre stage. As far as Xenagos goes, he's distinctly Red/Green, which differs greatly since his evil traits were pretty clearly sunken into the red.
This differs from Nahiri, who was pretty firmly established as white and then it seemed red was sorted on as a balancing reason. "Insanity" knows know colour, as Shadows of Innistrad itself shows, so I hardly think slapping red on is much of a justification.
>>48291294
>>48291297
That's true, we do sorta have Garruk. I guess they need to snatch Green's colour identity back from its hybrid colours, lest it becomes generic.Though it's pretty clear Wizards doesn't like green anymore, so I can't imagine they give a shit about that.
>>48291384
Is hunting for sport green though? I don't know.
>>48291289
Well, the current fad is rage against the 'muh feelings' crowd and to cheer whenever they get beaten down by the establishment.
There's a lot of people that delight in seeing the more emotional, reactive characters in fiction get beaten down by cold, hard pragmatism. Friendship, love and 'muh feelings' do not save the day, harsh logic and ruthlessness do.
So Nahiri's got this going against her and that's why there's a whole bunch of people bitching about her, because she's not only a villain but she's a 'muh feelings' villain rather than a Machiavellian, pragmatic villain that they would empathize with.
If you react to this image by cheering on the police officer and couldn't imagine why anyone would ever NOT cheer on the police officer, you're probably the sort of person I'm talking about.
>>48291403
You could spin it as Green, even if it's in the portion of Green that could overlap with Black.
Mark's article on green is pretty great.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/its-not-easy-being-green-revisited-2015-08-10
>>48291268
I hated it because it ended up being pointless, since the whole 'luring and trapping Ulamog with help from our army' thing went south so they just channel+fireballed them instead.
>>48291278
They don't need to add Allies or make it a big mechanical thing. Just replace some of those card arts of the Gatewatch fighting back to back against Eldrazi with Humans, Angels, and Monsters doing the same.
>>48291376
>so the conflicts and tribal dynamics already in play there ended up turning to tentacles and allies-only-we're-not-using-that-tribe-this-time.
umm, wat?
most of the conflicts did get pushed aside when EMN rolled out. Vampires made a rush in, zombies lead by Liliana lending support, the werewolves joining up with the humans (I do wish they'd had more than one normal werewolf in EMN, not just referencing them fighting the corrupted ones in flavor text).
They just had Emrakul creating his spawn my corruption, which happened to everyone but was most notable with the angels because they were so universally good before.
>>48291232
Knowing WotC Garruk will come back as a bad guy.
>>48287961
This.
I love this art and I was excited to see what card it would go on. Then is was immediately dissapointed to find out it'll be on cards I will never use ever.
>>48291482
So exactly what happened on Zendikar; all the tribes team up and fight the Eldrazi. Except the angels and demons, for some reason, who both get sidelined for horrors.
>>48291475
>>48291475
The fight was for survival. Had they not banded together and fought, they would've been run over before Ula and Kozi were even pulled in.
>>48291499
The lore reason for that is that they're both mana constructs and Nahiri, using the cryptoliths, directly attuned the plane's mana to Emrakul in an attempt to lure her to the plane. Corrupting angels and demons was an unintentional side-effect of that.
>>48291499
no, the angels get split between the corrupted and the defenders.
Just like the vampires, humans, werewolves.
>>48291546
It's not really a split if Sigarda and ONLY Sigarda is on the defending side. If the Herons are actually still around, they're sure as hell not represented anywhere.
Daily remainder Gisa, Geralf and Ludevic are the only good guys on Innistrad worth rooting for.
>>48291475
>Gatewatch fighting back to back against Eldrazi with Humans, Angels, and Monsters doing the same.
>has Gatewatch being backed up by zombies
>has them vampires fighting the spawn
>has lore where the werewolves team up with humans to fight the spawn
I'd have like bit more of this to show up on the cards too, but apparently they wanted to give more cards to the eldrazi threat than to the Innistrad forces fighting back. Which I kinda get as they didn't have the full eldrazi threat until this set.
>>48291585
>Geralf
These people have fucking snakes for faces.
>Gisa
These people have fucking snakes for faces!
>>48291546
it would be easier knowing there was helping angels
>>48291580
they did a real poor job of showing that the heron's are still around. Literally the only reason we know heron's flight is around, except sigarda, is the planeshift: innistrad book.
>>48291519
Yeah. Which wasnt as cool as them actually helping out to save their plane.
Just imagine it had been Ulamog only for those two sets, culminating in the army helping set up that Hedron trap and succeeding in containing him.
The survivors of Zendikar would actually get to help in a meaningful way. The Gatewatch still looks credible because they planned it out and took a Titan out of play, but its not to the point of ridiculous where they kill two unkillable entities by themselves. It leaves both Kozilek and Emrakul at large for use in the future, and it leaves Ulamog's escape as a possibility.
It also would have let them do a better story in 2 sets, since set 1 could have been conflict with Ulamog and set 2 could have been the resolution, instead of having to rush and establish Kozilek as a threat as well.
>>48291585
Cecani Incest sex when
>>48291580
there are 3 angel cards in the set.
I'm with you on wanting more of the allies to have shown up on the cards, but the lore was clear that flight followed the leader, and Sigarda didn't fall.
>>48288422
Well, Three Act Sets had their own problem. It 'worked' better story wise (First set establishes setting and shows the seeds of conflict being planted, second set is the full on conflict, third set is the resolution of the conflict and hinting at the future), but MECHANICALLY it was a nightmare.
>>48288121
>Dual wielding redhead with thigh-high boots is bad taste
>>48291626
>Cecani incest
>not GeralfxLudevic Science Sex
>>48291601
> Literally the only reason we know heron's flight is around, except sigarda, is the planeshift: innistrad book.
actually, we knew they were around in SOI, because the story that introduced the corrupted Gisela and Bruna had Sigarda rallying her flight at the end.
So them being on the humans side was known since them.
All The planesift: innistrad book added was confirming that the flight was still around.
>>48291658
He must be an autistic eleshfag or worse,emrakulfag
TWO VAGINAS
>>48289240
>Brunette Sigarda
>Pale Bruna
The fuck
>>48291618
So, you would rather have the nameless masses have a larger role in the resolution than the protagonists. I understand that, but I can see why that isn't the case. I personally still loved seeing all the different factions standing up in BFZ despite supposedly being "pointless". You really felt it in limited, where everything that wasn't devoid was part of the good guys.
All these random creature types tied together.
>>48291637
They should really stop referring to Sigarda as the ONLY sane angel in the flavor text, then.
>>48289395
SOI did Lovecraft himself well (the mental corruption, the hints of something sinister just under the surface, the cultists worshipping something in the sea, the investigation, etc), but EMN is playing up what people who don't know Lovecraft think that Lovecraft is: titanic tentacle monsters and zero subtlety.
>>48291690
Sigarda isn't a brunette?
>>48291637
We've seen an angel of flight alabaster printed. We've seen several goldnights. We've seen some specifically avacynian angels. I don't think, across both innistrad blocks, we've even had ONE heron flight angel other than both siggies.
I'm also mad there's like, what, two wolfir ever?
>>48291490
Why not? They've even brought nissa in to serve as le good green walker u guise.
>>48291671
Uh, where does it say that?
A gaze blank and pitiless the last thing sigarda notes is
>The storm is coming. Sigarda considered the angels in her flight, wondering if any of them had gone over to Avacyn yet. She considered humans that could possibly help stand against Avacyn. There were few, so few. But Sigarda knew it didn't matter, even if no one joined her cause. The storm is here. This time I fight.
>Gisella
I'm still running the RW waifu along side her corrupted self, og Avacyn and pms Avacyn in edh
>>48291747
not the same poster, but I thought she was blonde
>>48290995
He's a villain because he used Nahiri to get the Eldrazi all taken care of, went off to make his plane's home security system, and either didn't stop to think that the system might mess with Nahiri's call for help (which he promised to answer), or planned to just keep Innistrad safe, fuck the rest of the multiverse. Nahiri rightfully felt some mixture of betrayed and abandoned by that, and when all she wanted was basically a "my bad" from him, he threatened her and then shoved her into a rock full of demons for a thousand years, after which he still continued to act like he'd done nothing wrong.
He didn't deserve to have his daughter-fu mindraped or his plane destroyed, but he was absolutely a monumental dickhead at every turn with Nahiri.
>>48291747
Sigarda a blondie
>>48288121
Aurelia and Basandra better r/w angels
>>48291747
It's not 100% clear with the backlighting in her art, but she's either a blonde or auburn. Logic would say she's blonde since one of her sisters is a ginger and the other is a brunette.
>>48291598
>Geralf looks annoyed
>Gisa looks excited
>both thinking the same thing
>neither of them actually worried
Sounds absolutely perfect
>>48291802
They're both colossal jerks and I hope jace tries to do a DEEP AND MEANINGFUL THOUGHT CONNECTION to get them to see each others' point of view and gets BTFO'd.
I mean, probably will work because derp and the jacestice league, but I can hope.
>>48291822
i'd argue shes blonde
>>48291718
I didn't say a larger role than the protagonists, just a larger role than they had, which was nothing.
It's still Jace figuring out the Hedron prison and Nissa channeling mana from leylines and doing the actual trapping. The army is there to be bait, run interference, and help pull the trap shut.
I wanted some payoff for all of them teaming up. They built it up too much for the result to just be survival.
>>48291802
Although I do find it kind of interesting that aside from Sorin there seems to be a real divide in the Innistradi and Zendikari mindset towards the invaders.
Pretty much every Zendikari who is aware it's a possibility for the Eldrazi to leave almost immediately says "make them leave! Who cares what happens to someone else's world if they leave us alone?"
The Innistradi see Emrakul, and while admittedly they are probably unaware it could go back where it came from or off to somewhere else, I don't feel like this would change the Order of St Traft's initial reaction of "we're going to kill that thing."
>>48291838
Speaking of Jace, I actually feel like he's getting more likeable as time goes on. He used to just be the brooding snide "better than you" hyper-intellectual no-friends-needed asshole, but he's starting to not be such a dick and accepting that he actually LIKES the other Gatewatch members.
>>48291859
>"we're going to kill that thing."
Innistrad confirmed for actual D&D plane
>>48291859
It's probably a cultural thing. The Zendikari keep to themselves, tight-knit groups, dangerous world, really a "look out for me and mine" kind of place.
The Innistrad people are used to being beset on all sides by horrors and having to band together to stay alive, so "make that be someone else's problem" is not how they do things.
>>48291856
I mean, people without sparks don't really fight Eldrazi expecting to win.
>>48291867
>he actually LIKES the other Gatewatch members.
At least someone likes them, I guess.
>>48288029
They want to make sure all the literal retards who play this game get it. To WotC and their target audience there is no such thing as subtlety
>>48291867
From what Maro's said, apparently much like Chandra took over Jaya's quotes when she became a major character they initially thought to have Jace take over the smarmy asshole quotes usually printed on blue control cards (usually from Ertai) but as a protagonist have generally had Jace as more of an awkward intellectual than a jackass.
His man-crush on Gideon is probably helping, though.
>>48291892
Yeah, and then these Gatewatch guys show up with a plan to win. Then the army helps them with their plan, and they get to seem useful.
>>48291838
> They're both colossal jerks
This
Sorin is a dick and Nahiri a cunt. They're made for each other.
>>48291859
Saint Traft is basically Fantasy Doomguy, considering he said "Fuck the afterlife, I need to slay more demons!" and became a geist. Of course his organisation is a bunch of monsterslaying nutjobs.
>>48291894
I actually like them. Or at least, I like them when they're well written. Gideon is great when he's basically Major Alex Louis Armstrong and being made out of muscles and charisma, Jace is great when he's the awkward smart kid who feels outclassed because combat isn't his thing and is slowly coming out of his shell with these people, Chandra is great when she's all fire and freedom and bad puns, and Nissa is... well, she's at least not terrible when it's not ASHAYA ASHAYA ASHAYA ASHAYA
>>48291895
I don't get why people hate ft Jace so much. Cards like Punish Ignorance exist solely to be a dick via flavor. Why shouldn't the blue poster boy be the same way?
Redirect has awful flavor text though.
>>48291585
That's not Thalia, Rem, Odric, Grete, or Siggy.
>>48291016
>her
Serra was a dude, and he is absolutely certainly dead, as proven by the collapse of his plane.
>>48287953
I miss when the denizens of the planes featured in the story were there for a reason aside from becoming collateral.
>>48291944
My post had nothing to do with planeswalkers, I'm not sure why you quoted me
>>48291929
The amount of ghost good guys in this set is crazy. I can't even imagine Innistrad having scenarios like this flavor text any more.
Good flavor with Intangible Virtue though.
>>48291892
People neowalker sparks probably shouldn't be fighting eldrazi and expecting to win. People with OLDWALKER sparks weren't sure if they could kill the damned things, and then ugin distracted the issue by asking whether they should.
Unrelatedly, I just realised this guy is probably a zombie, and that makes me laugh.
>>48289216
>That sounds like something Lovecraft would do, right?
...dude, Emrakul is the Thing more than anything. And this is TOTALLY in-line with the Thing.
>>48292001
I clicked the wrong guy, sorry
>>48291929
To be fair, the mindset is well-justified. There's no peaceful coexistence with Innistrad's monsters, despite Arlinn's pipe dream. The zombies will never stop trying to eat you. The vampires will never stop trying to eat you. The werewolves, even if they feel really bad about it, will try to kill you when they warg out. The demons and devils exist specifically to fuck with you, personally.
So it's never somebody else's problem or time to talk it out. You don't whine, you pick up a sharp object and put the bastard six feet under.
>>48291948
Because while some people think the "I'm a condescending dick" flavor text on counters is funny, others think it just comes across as cringey, and it gets worse when it's always the same fucking guy.
>>48291944
My friend referenced that when I told him what token Origins Nissa made. And I saw a joke about it on Card of the Day. What is it from? Does she literally just say Ashaya over and over? Is Ashaya dead?
Was the card of the day guy making fun of it?
>>48291996
Serra was female, dude.
>>48291724
one piece of flavor text, and given that it refers to avacyn, it could easy be interpreted as meaning leading angels.
And Invocation of Saint Traft, and later mentions of that order refer to getting angelic aid, clearly not just Sigarda.
>>48291751
> we've even had ONE heron flight angel other than both siggies.
agree a bit with this statement.
In SOI and EMN it's a bit understandable in that they only had a limited number of spaces for angels (literally 3 in EMN, counting the legendaries), and representing the angels turning against humanity was more important.
But I do agree that including more of the uncorrupted on cards (not just angels, the werewolves fighting for humanity is in EMN flavor text and stories, but only the legendary for cards).
>two wolfir ever.
IIRC there are 3-4 in AVR, and while there is only one in SOI they do mention that they are the only ones left, so the lore their is nice.
>>48291758
I interpreted that as meaning that while some of her flight might have gone over, they didn't necessarily. Then took the Saint Traft stuff as being clear that some lesser angels clearly helping the humans.
>>48292066
In a LOT of the Nissa-Centric Uncharted Realms stories for the BFZ block, the word "Ashaya" was way overused once she actually named the "Soul of Zendikar" she summoned up. Her stories were like 90% just her and ASHAYA wandering around some eldrazi-blasted wasteland while she talked to ASHAYA about how sad she was.
>>48289240
don't give up on cosmic horror fampai. it's not all pacific rim
>>48292066
For Battle for Zendikar, each of the primary characters was given a single member of the writing team to do their short stories.
Nissa got Kimberly Kreines, whose writing style tends to be a bit like.
This.
With short, if not single word, sentences isolated on their own.
It's kind of silly.
This, combined with Nissa's utter absence of character and the fact she spends most of her screentime entirely alone except for Ashaya created some really awkward reading, wherein you count how many times there was just a paragraph of:
Ashaya.
But she was not that elf.
"Oh," Nissa said "Oh."
Ashaya.
She was not that elf anymore. Not That Elf.
A S H A Y A
>>48292116
>don't give up on Cosmic Horror
Eh, 7/7 for 6 is okay, but the upkeep makes it pretty unplayable.
>>48291948
he was overly pushed.
Took to much marketing space (Like all of it), never faced any real competition for 'the face of blue', which every other color walker did, and had a card that dominated and distorted standard for a significant period of time.
>>48292116
I'd actually like the Eldrazi more if they did go full pacific rim and have giant monster punchouts with the heavyweights of the plane, but we can't even have that.
>>48291289
>He's arrogant, selfish, cruel, and cold. He'll act for the greater good if that good also helps him, but he's completely willing to fuck others over, or let entire planes die if he feels it's in his personal interest.
This really isn't supported by any of his actions in the story.
>ZENDIKAR I: Shows up to stop the Eldrazi. Fails thanks to Nissa "everything I touch turns to shit" Revane. Leaves Zendikar to seek out Ugin since Sorin doesn't know how to deal with Eldrazi on his own.
>INNISTRAD I: Brief stop on his home plane and discovers that everything is going to Hell. He tries to find the reason for this. Ultimately he doesn't do anything, but being ineffectual isn't a crime.
>TARKIR (original): Shows up, finds Ugin's corpse, has no idea what to do.
>TARKIR (new): Shows up, wakes up Ugin, and is told by Ugin to go get Nahiri (and resolve whatever issues he had with her) while he goes to deal with Zendikar.
>INNISTRAD II: Returns to Innistrad presumably to do exactly what Ugin suggested, and instead finds everything going to shit again, because of Nahiri.
Sorin has never, ever, ever, EVER done anything that could be construed as "villainous" in the present day. If the worst that can be said of him is that he imprisoned some bitch and occasionally kills redshirts to slake his vampiric thirst, then he's by no reasonable estimation a villain. Does he have the potential? Sure, but it's not been displayed.
>>48292155
I genuinely wonder how much Mindsculptor ended up shaping the way people think of the guy. Jace Beleren was such a cute, fun card.
I know some people say "The only reason Jace polls highly is his busted cards!" which I don't believe, since people who get polled usually play 60 card casual with basics a dog has slobbered on. But I could believe that the backlash amongst the obsessees is from Mindsculptor.
>>48290620
Avacyn killed the black PPG a long time ago. Foreshadowing indeed.
>>48291996
Serra was female, and artificial planes ALWAYS eventually collapse, especially if they're made entirely out of a single color of magic the way Serra's Realm was. Serra's Realm collapsing doesn't mean anything; and it doesn't help that its collapse was intentionally hastened by Phyrexian infiltration.
Also, no, Serra was a woman.
>>48292171
He killed Avacyn in order to team up with Olivia, the most hedonistic, human hating, evil power hungry vampire bitch in all of Innistrad because he needed to launch a crusade not to fight Eldrazi, but to get vengeance on Nahiri and the poor souls converted to her cult.
>>48292146
>>48292099
That honestly sounds like kind of fun and pulpy writing. I'll check it out. Thanks.
>>48292171
did you skip the entire
Zendikar: His solution is just to sacrifice zendikar because the current situation fucks that plain but not the others (ie the stuff he cares about). Wants to make the prison more secure, but fuck all the people living there
>Innistrad
where we find out that while he did create Avacyn, it was just so that the vampires wouldn't overhunt their food source and screw up him home. Fucking over individual vampires and monsters was fine, so long as they weren't him (reason why the other vampires hate him). Not being enough to actually stop the monsters and keep humanity safe was part of the plan.
>Tarkire
Told to get Nahiri, who he fucked over an imprisoned in the first place, and knew how to get to.
Then the backstory where basically he decides to put Nihari into a hell dimension he can't get her out of because she's interrupting him from doing whats best for him (and only him, and he knows that then that it's fucking over other planes).
So, all those times he displayed being being a villian.
>>48292250
I'd love to see ghost black ppg show up, but I severely doubt it's gonna happen.
>>48292261
You do need all five colors, the reason artificial planes collapse is because they're imbalanced, because no one ever has exactly an even mix.
>>48292275
Avacyn at that point was also kind of insane and slaughtering humans left and right, remember? He didn't exactly do the plane a disservice, and Anguished Unmaking's flavor text makes it clear that he was not happy with the decision, he just didn't feel he had any other viable option.
Also, getting help to take down Nahiri does not in any way, shape, or form seem like a bad thing, given that she had already slaughtered the Markovs and was apparently building some kind of cult. Which then summoned Emrakul to Innistrad.
So, yeah. He's still not remotely a villain. Dick? Sure. But not villain.
>>48287953
That interesting plots are beyond their capacity of thought
>>48288294
Magic-cyberpunk a la Shadowrun, with Planewalkers that don't take anyone's shit.
>>48292347
Sorin had no reason to ally with Olivia other than vengeance. He knew the place was fucked. Sure, he dreamed and hoped to somehow stop Avacyn without killing her but the goal of the meeting was not to stop a threat. It was to uphold a bargain.
Sorin became a villain as soon as he decided his vengeance was more important than Innistrad. (Which admittedly didn't come across very well and now it is too late to fix the writing).
>>48292347
Nihari is willing to destroy a plane to get revenge. Sorin is willing to destroy a plane to benefit his long term plans.
Saying ones a villian and the other isn't is pretty bullshit.
The whole
>he just didn't feel he had any other viable option.
is just his pragmatism in contrast to Nahiri's passion. It doesn't make him a better person.
>>48291490
garruk is never coming back
>>48288294
Dualistic set of planes linked to each other, with mechanical ties for each specific plane and having crossing over and friction between them be a major plot point. Focus on tribes, odd mechanics, and unusual playstyles.Now am I talking about Kamigawa, or Lorwyn?
>>48292314
>His solution is just to sacrifice zendikar because the current situation fucks that plain but not the others (ie the stuff he cares about). Wants to make the prison more secure, but fuck all the people living there
Sorin was operating under Ugin's belief, which was that the Eldrazi Titans couldn't be killed, only imprisoned. And while he didn't stay behind to fight in Rise of the Eldrazi, that's because he had gone out looking for Ugin, the guy with the mana knowledge necessary to re-imprison them.
He didn't stay to fight what he thought was a losing battle and instead went to go seek out what he believed was the most viable, permanent solution. That's not villainy, that's pragmatism.
>Not being enough to actually stop the monsters and keep humanity safe was part of the plan.
The monstrous nature of Innistrad is part of the fundamental nature of the plane. If there weren't werewolves and vampires there would still be zombies and geists and other horrors. It's not ideal, but it's still not really villainous. If anything it's very Green of him.
>Told to get Nahiri, who he fucked over an imprisoned in the first place, and knew how to get to.
Of course, he fucked her over and imprisoned her in the first place because she attacked him and also tried to kill Avacyn when Avacyn identified her as an eminent threat to Innistrad. So still not villainous.
>So, all those times he displayed being being a villian.
No. Dick and some kind of weird black-aligned Druid in trying to preserve the balanced state of Innistrad, but not a villain, and certainly not ANYTHING near the scale of what Nahiri has demonstrated herself as being capable of.
>>48292453
Theros.
>>48292171
>Zendikar
You skipped the part where he spent the whole trip there trolling the racist elf because he thought it was funny.
>>48292171
You missed "ignored his promise to help Nahiri when the Eldrazi almost escaped", followed shortly after by "Mocked, threatened, and then trapped his friend in a rock for a thousand years".
>>48292474
In Sorin's defense, it WAS funny. And that's still not the act of a villain.
>>48292474
And? The only good things that nissa had in the story was a big pair of joragas
>>48292457
Nahiri is the primary antagonist of SOI block. No denying that. But Sorin's crusade on Nahiri wasn't fueled by desire to fix Innistrad or to help anyone.
As evidenced by the fact that he lost and Nahiri still fucked right off.
>>48292286
The Nissa ones are low points, but overall the Uncharted Realms are fun.
>>48288452
No buddy, ygo has nothing like that.
>>48292492
I'm not saying he's a villain.
I'm saying he's far from blameless, because his two modes are "be a dick to everyone around him" and "be surprised when people lash out at him for being a dick".
>>48292457
>green alinged stuff
you are making that shit up.
Or at least ascribing motives that are clearly in contrast to Sorin that are contrary to the character presented.
He's not saving the vampires because Innistrad needs vampires to preserve it's eco-system. He's doing it because he's a vampire and wants his home to still be a decent place for vampires like him, or more specifically him, because the threat he made to other vampires can't hurt him.
>he fucked her over and imprisoned her in the first place because she attacked him
no, she tried to force him to come with her to do the thing he promised to do.
Then he resisted by force. Then Avacyn showed up and tried to kill her, because she wasn't from Innistrad and was trying to force her master. Then he didn't tell Avacyn to back off, which he could, and then go help Nahiri, like he'd promised, because right now he had other things to do which benefited him, even if they were fucking over Nahiri.
>>48292487
He didn't get the call because of an accident, and she attacked him first.
Again. These are the actions of an asshole, not a villain.
>>48292487
>ignored his promise to help Nahiri when the Eldrazi almost escaped
No. He didn't get the message that the Eldrazi were escaping due to a flaw in the construction of the Helvault; a flaw he corrected thereafter. How was he supposed to know about it? Are you saying he's a villain because he happened to accidentally be in a no-service area when Nahiri tried to call his cell phone?
>Mocked, threatened, and then trapped his friend in a rock for a thousand years
When she attacked him and Avacyn after he explained that the Helvault that he'd constructed to preserve Innistrad's status quo accidentally blocked the call.
>>48292531
He didn't get the call because he set up the Helvault, Avacyn, and some other warding Magic to make Innistrad functionally invisible to the Eldrazi, and muses that "it's possible" his wards interfered with the call. Which means that either he didn't make sure he could GET that call, or honestly didn't care because his plane was now safe, so fuck Nahiri.
She did attack him first, because his reaction to her frustration and abandonment was to be a complete condescending dickhead to the person who volunteered her home as a prison, and her entire lifespan as jailer, largely on the crux that she'd have help any time she needed it, and he'd ignored her.
The whole entire situation could have been resolved without any problems if he'd just showed any amount of regret or sympathy, but he had to be a dick. He's not a villian, he's just so selfish that he literally destroys planes.
>>48292357
Proportionally, angels are probably less fucked than humans.
>>48292530
>He's doing it because he's a vampire and wants his home to still be a decent place for vampires like him
Which ain't villainous in any event;
>Or at least ascribing motives that are clearly in contrast to Sorin that are contrary to the character presented.
Look, I don't real the tie-in stories. I read card flavor text and occasionally those little booklets that come with the fat packs. None of those suggest that Sorin in any way could be described as a villain.
The biggest asshole in the Multiverse? Sure. But when push comes to shove he acts in defense of that Multiverse, and his personal goals never seem to in any way necessarily involve people dying, it's just an unfortunate side-effect.
>>48292536
She attacked him because she felt abandoned, and he went "lol whoops, now run along lil girl daddy has angels to bone". She didn't attack him because he didn't come, she attacked him because he broke a promise since he was too busy only thinking about himself.
>>48292581
>I don't read the tie-in stories
Then you don't get to fucking comment on what happens in them. This is you walking into a restaurant and saying "I don't watch the way people cook things, but you're cooking this wrong."
>>48291802
>He didn't deserve to have his daughter-fu mindraped or his plane destroyed,
He deserved it. They didn't, though, and that's more important.
>>48292536
you are ignoring a lot of his dickishness, consistently.
Sure he explains that the Avacyn (not the Helvault, another example of you not understanding the damn lore), accidently blocked the signal, and yes, this wasn't a thing he would have necessarily known.
Does he then go, 'I'm sorry what I did accidentally fucked over your plain that you put at risk under a plan I supported and left you to handle on your own. Sure I'll come with you, for fulfilling my promise now that I am aware of it, and make sure your plane is safe'.
No, he says, "I'm busy go away". He doesn't even check "will you're plane be safe while I tidy things up and get ready to go with you?".
Because he's not willing to sacrifice himself or what's his to help others. Because he's fucking selfish.
>>48292564
No, he doesn't destroy planes. The Eldrazi and Nahiri destroy planes. Sorin's every act has been to preserve the planes he's been to in one form or another, except Tarkir, and only because Tarkir doesn't actually need saving, it's doing just fine.
Maybe the story had had him stop off at Ravnica or Mirrodin or Theros and been a dick there, then this argument would hold weight. But as it stands, Sorin's actions prior to Nahiri fucking over his own plane have been "save the Multiverse."
Who cares if it's solely for his own benefit? You think Liliana is really in it for the Greater Good? That's not Black. But it's not neessarily unheroic, either.
>>48292418
>(Which admittedly didn't come across very well and now it is too late to fix the writing).
Could it be that, perhaps, that maybe wasn't the actual fucking intention of the writing and you're just injecting whatever you personally believe into it?
>>48292651
Sorin's every act has been to keep him and his safe, and throw anyone else to the meat grinder to make that happen.
Sorin's every act is being a selfish asshole so hard it blows up in his face to the tune of plane-wide devastation.
>>48292584
I sorta feel like their confrontation was a rashomon thing in that neither of them really remembered it without bias.
>Sorin: So I was just chilling to recharge after, y'know, making a goddess to keep my plane safe and orderly, and suddenly my old student pops up and starts giving me grief about not answering her calls. I explain it was an honest mistake and then she just flips the fuck out and starts attacking me and nearly wrecks everything, so I locked her in the vault.
>Nahiri: So I go to check on my mentor, who I was worried might be dead or insensate after thousands of years without any fellow planeswalkers to keep him company, like I was. Turns out he carelessly constructed a device that made it impossible for him to keep his promise to come if I called for help and clearly can't give less of a fuck that things are tilting pretty sharply shitward on my home. I try to force him to stop giving me the brush-off and take the matter seriously, and the asshole sics an angel on me and then imprisons me for a thousand years rather than take a day to keep his promise!
I get the feeling Ugin will not be terribly sympathetic to either party in this scenario.
>>48292581
so you admit you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
Because you presented it as 'there are no instances of him being a villain', when there clearly are, but you didn't bother fucking reading.
He can act for the good of the whole, when he's included in the whole (note: he is never fucking self sacrificing), and he does know that his personal goals have a side-effect of hurting others and doesn't care (so he's not sadistic and cruel, hurting others because he wants to, he's just merciless willing to hurt whoever he wants if he gets what he wants).
Nahiri was actually more willing to sacrifice herself and hers for the good of others. She just also became ruthless, willing to hurt others to achiever her goal.
>All these delusional waifufags itt trying desperately to paint Sorin as a villain
Holy shit I knew tg was pathetic but this is a new low
I haven't been paying enough attention lately to have read it offhand, could someone link the Sorin and Nahiri story that keeps getting referenced?
>>48292672
Given Sorin's usual behavior as a condescending asshole to everyone he meets, I'm more tempted to think Nahiri has the truer memory of events, even with the Rashomon angle.
>>48289425
>They've literally only done the 'corrupted angel' thing in sets where corruption of the natural order is a major part of the set.
Pretty much yeah. Eldrazi running rampant and corrupting everything? Of course the angels get corrupted.
Phyrexia coming back lack the bad cold they are and making everything sick? Corrupted angels.
It only seems to be worse this time around because Innistrad is the "plane with the really, really good angels"
It'd be like if the eldrazi went to Tarkir instead and everyone complained about wizards always corrupting dragons and stuff.
>>48292697
>all these delusional misogynistic assholes itt trying desperately to paint Sorin as a blameless hero because he's being opposed by a woman
>>48292651
>willing to let the Eldrazi destroy a plane because it will help him accomplish his goals
Totally different from
>willing to use the Eldrazi to destroy a plane because it will help her accomplish her goals.
He was willing to let the multiverse be at risk, if it made himself and his safer. That's what he was doing when he told Nahiri to fuck off.
>>48292599
The primary mode through which most Magic players get the story is through card art and flavor text. The card art and flavor text for Sorin has consistently been "he's an asshole, but ultimately his actions save entire planes of existence, until Nahiri fucked over his own plane."
If Wizards wants the fanbase at large to see him as a villain, then they should use their card art and flavor text to get that point across. Otherwise they don't get to complain when players react negatively to a character who by all indications was the closest Black can come to being a "good guy" starts being called a villain who is just as much to blame for the situation as Nahiri "I'm gonna go Jon Carpenter on billions of people becuase I think that's a proportionate response to a situation that ultimately I started by throwing the first punch" Planeswalker.
>>48292654
Then why would Maro put him as a villain in the head to head? Alright, you and me, let's read this thing:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/campaign-vengeance-2016-07-06
>>48292568
This does annoy me.
>Crystallised representations of ideals of purity, protection, and law, carefully molded into humanoid form because reasons
>Emmy's noodly appendage touches them
>Full explode into tentacles body horror
Can we have one freaking story with angels where they aren't either douchebags, eminently corruptible, or ineffectual?
>>48292741
HE'S NOT A VILLAIN
NOBODY IS ARGUING THAT HE'S EVIL
YOU CAN BE AT FAULT WITHOUT BEING EVIL
That's what we're saying. He's not a moustache-twirling, baby-eating, puppy-kicking Saturday Morning villain. He's a selfish, arrogant asshole who is happy endangering other worlds (including ALL other worlds) if it keeps himself safe. He's not evil, but he's a selfish asshole whose attitude was 100% the catalyst for every bad thing that's ever happened to him.
>>48292774
Angels on Bant were very efficient.
>>48292774
To be fair, Emrakul is a reality-warping being so ancient she transcends the concept of colorless mana. It's not like some random fuck bitch-slapped an Angel so hard she grew 6 inch spike heels and a BDSM habit.
>>48292774
Well, Zendikar was ultimately saved because one nameless angel repaid Tazri's act of mercy when Kozilek was fucking everything forever, but I know what you mean. Iona didn't even get another card and Linvala wasn't even mentioned.
>>48292747
If you replaced "Sorin" with "Gideon" in this story, what would change?
>>48292728
Nahiri's gender has nothing to do with the situation, except that it means I'll occasionally use "bitch" rather than "bastard". The intent is the same in either case.
>>48292788
Colored, not colorless, sorry.
>>48292774
Why are angelfags so insufferably demanding? Is it because
>muh waifus
>muh good guys
>muh white mana
Or is it something else entirely?
>>48292806
Likewise, Nahiri being a woman is not why I'm saying Sorin is at fault. If Nahiri was named Ned, Sorin would still be the instigating asshole in this situation.
Nahiri's still being fucking crazy for deciding to destroy his plane in vengeance, and I'm not saying that Sorin DESERVES this fate, but he did absolutely throw the first metaphorical punch.
>>48292801
Well, that's not really fair. Gideon fucks up sometimes but he learns from his mistakes, and his fuckups were primarily a moment of tragic arrogance that backfired spectacularly because Heliod made him his champion (that guy must have a positive impact on SOMEONE'S life, but we haven't seen it yet) and then he fought on the wrong side with the Order of Heliud or whatever. Which at least gives him the clarity when he cuts ties with them to notice that Aurelia is a nutbar even if the Boros are by and large his kind of people.
>>48292777
Then why did Maro put him as a villain in Head to Head?
>He's not evil, but he's a selfish asshole whose attitude was 100% the catalyst for every bad thing that's ever happened to him.
No, no, a thousand times no. Nahiri does not get out of at least 50% of the blame here. Sorin may have been an asshole, but Nahiri is just as much of a bitch, and furthermore she's the one who is acting like destroying billions of people on a plane uninvolved in their grudge match is a proportionate response.
Sorin is absolutely an asshole, but given what Nahiri has been doing I absolutely cannot find it within myself to place any true blame on him.
>>48292777
By that same standard Nahiri isn't a villain.
She's a merciless vengeful asshole whose willing to endanger worlds to strike back at those who wronged her.
They are both antagonists, and do bad things, but they aren't evil for the sack of evil villains. Magic doesn't have those that often. Ob-Nix is the only clear example of that recently.
>>48292882
He bullied her into sacrificing her home and her life to be prison and warden to the Eldrazi, and then ignored her call for help because he was using the time she bought him to go Eldrazi-proof Innistrad because he never gave a flying fuck about the multiverse, he just wanted Innistrad safe.
Once she came to ask "WHAT THE HELL, DUDE" he told her to fuck off because he no longer cared if they got out, because Innistrad was safe. When she attacked him for this monumental dick move, he locked her in a fucking rock for a thousand years, then filled it with demons, then allowed the Eldrazi to get free and obliterate her home plane (which she feels she could have stopped if she were not trapped in a fucking rock for a thousand years)
Yes, she's at fault for deciding the correct response to that is "destroy your plane and everyone on it", but he is far, far, FAR from blameless in this.
>>48292842
Yeah, but Nahiri threw the first actual punch. She's the one that escalated things from a shouting match to a brawl. She is the one who demonstrated herself to view violence with a self-professed former friend and mentor as being reasonable. And she did it all in the span of about five minutes.
This wasn't a long, drawn-out debate that just kept escalating, this wasn't Sorin repeatedly ignoring issues on Zendikar. This was him once, ONCE, not getting a call, BY ACCIDENT, and Nahiri deciding that his attitude required a violent response in less time than it takes to get a pizza delivered.
>>48287953
The real Dark Souls begins here.
>>48292920
>ignored
>never gave a fuck about the multiverse
>allowed
Jesus fuck get a clue, none of these things happened the way you described them
>>48292863
He's also willing to say "I'm Sorry", and willing to make sacrifices from himself to make up for when he fucked up.
>>48292882
It's not about proportionate response. She's not thinking in those terms. While she does say "I will destroy your plane as my plane was destroyed", this is not an explanation of a calm measured 'an eye for an eye is justice' response.
This is "I will make you hurt as much as possible for what you did to me" vengeance, and everything else is irrelevant in this regard. Exactly like the suffering of Nahiri, and all of Zendikar, was irrelevant to Sorin's decisions in protecting himself from the Eldrazi.
I'll agree that Nahiri does not get out of the blame, at all. But Sorin doesn't either.
>>48292747
I did my end of the bargain and read it. I'll admit, Sorin's motives aren't very clear in this. Him calling 1000 years in a demon infested bit of sliver "a turn in the Helvault" didn't exactly make him seem heroic.
All I got from it was he thought himself above it all. It is hubris unending.
>>48289240
Your pic really shows where your priorities are.You should not be playing an interactive game if your goal is just to masturbate, anon.
>>48292948
way to still fucking ignore him being told "Come with me and fix this shit" and him saying "NOPE, fuck you".
She might have escalated things, but he made no fucking effort to deescalate. And he willingly chose the option of dealing with this conflict that left Nahiri imprissioned forever.
This was not just an accident that happened to Sorin. He made choices that were selfish and cruel.
>>48292801
He probably wouldn't have been so fucking nonchalant. Gideon grew out of that arrogance since ignition. Sorin grew into it more and more.
>>48293030
But nothing else would have changed for the most part, right? Then how can you call Sorin a villain for these actions when Gideon is clearly a hero and would have done the exact same thing
>>48292890
There's a difference between endanger and destroy. Sorin inadvertantly endangered zendikar. Nahiri intentionally tried to destroy innistrad.
>>48292774
>Crystallised representations of ideals of purity, protection, and law
The thing is that they're varying degrees of those. Sigarda's Host of Herons is Purity, so they're safe. The secondary colors of the other two are often associated with madness, so they were more easily corruptible.
>Nahiri apologist trying to justify their waifu villain as: S.sorin is a villain too!
She was a monowhite walker, she should have been above all of that and learn that you cannot count with vampire mcedgelord, instead of that she gos full notice me sempai, i'm as powerful as you. she got to the helvault by her own means
>>48292948
>>48292976
He did never both to check in on her or Innistrad for a thousand years. Instead just helping himself.
When he did find out that he, admittedly accidentally, blocked her calls and possibly fucked over her, Zendikar, and possibly the multiverse, rather than trying to fix this he keeps on prioritizing keeping Innistrad and himself safe.
The rather than checking on Zendikar to make sure things were okay now that he trapped the guardian of that plane, in a place he can't get her out off, when she warned him that the bonds were weakening, and she was necessary to keeping the place secure. He spend his time making sure his plane was still hunky dory.
>>48292709
Anybody?
>>48293049
Because motivation is a factor in whether someone is a hero or a villain.
Sorin's motivation to confronting Nahiri appears to have been pride. He was unwilling to admit that his imprisonment of Nahiri was anything short of reasonable and his desire in this fight is to show Nahiri up. Otherwise, he would've taken her seriously and probably would've won.
Anyway, bad writing makes this discussion difficult. I am trying to piece together the lore team's intentions more than anything. It is possible that Sorin is genuinely a good guy, whose only sin is not caring about mortals. But from what I can tell from the tone there, his pride goes beyond that.
>>48293049
Gideon would have admitted he was in the wrong and made an effort to make amends and correct his mistake.
That second part is where Sorin's arrogance goes from just his attitude to also changing his actions.
>>48293054
he was willing to let it be destroyed, when danger changed from possible to certain.
So no, there isn't.
>>48293154
>Motivation is a factor for being a hero
What is this shit
>>48291965
>Sincerely believes that Avacyn was sane the whole time and the way to save Innistrad is to kill everyone who's even a little bit sinful
>Only changes his mind at the last minute when the plane is half-eaten by tentacle monsters and he already has buckets of innocent blood on his hands
I'm sorry, but Odric is Nissa-level stupid.
>>48293148
There are multiple, but here is the final confrontation.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/campaign-vengeance-2016-07-06
>>48293126
His nonchalance seems really inconsistent, honestly. The Zendikar artbook indicated Sorin saw Nahiri as the daughter he'd never have when he took her under his wing millenia ago, and seemed to imply he cared for her without the ulterior motives/purpose that come into his care for his actual daughter Avacyn.
>>48293175
Sorry, I mean the one where she gets put in the vault.
>>48293172
Nahiri is clearly the antagonist of SOI. And Sorin while not the protagonist, is a third party, and not an antagonist.
But that doesn't make him a hero. Heroism as a concept doesn't work that way.
>>48293183
Sorin seems like he's a liar. Look at how he pleads for Olivia to release him. He says she needs him. He says Innistrad needs him. He says anything other than admire that he needs help to break out.
>>48293207
There is two actually.
One from sorin's pov, and one from Nahiri
Sorin's
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/promises-old-and-new-2016-04-13
Nahiri's
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/stone-and-blood-2016-06-15
>>48293207
This one.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/promises-old-and-new-2016-04-13
