![ASandtheBMBX[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/tzKnz5T.jpg "ASandtheBMBX[1].jpg")
>players want to play games together
>some want to play characters with supernatural abilities like the ability to cast spells
>some want to play characters with no supernatural abilities, just really good at hitting things.
>both players want the spells to be impressive, and reflecting magic's power in their favorite stories
>both players want the game to be balanced such that every character, magical or not, is on the same power level.
How does a system accomplish this?
>>48281076
It doesn't. The system provides the framework by which the players and their GM resolve to accomplish it themselves.
There will literally never be a perfect system of rules, not in games, not in anything. There will always be complication, imbalance, confusion, ambiguity and dissatisfaction without the interference of active minds seeking a common goal.
>>48281076
>reflecting magic's power in their favorite stories
Which stories?
Lots of stories have plot magics, that take a dozen guys an hour (plus a few days of prep) to pull off, and that sort of thing, but all of the really flashy stuff I can think of wasn't the sort of thing you could do in a typical RPG battle.
The people in the Harry Potter universe, for example, can apparate (though iirc that needs some kind of pre-built magical network active to work), they can do stuff like make people dance or drop what they're holding or what have you, and the forbidden spells can kill, mind control, and ... cause pain? It's been a while.
None of that is super powerful stuff, unless you're transferring the insta-death spell to an RPG with lots of hit points (keep in mind a muggle with a gun and decent aim can pull off more or less the same in about the same amount of time).
The short version of the best solution I've heard is to make the really flashy magic stuff be super high level and possibly just let the noncasters surpass normal Human limits at a suitably high level (though in ways that are just "a little more [thing] than their lower-level versions").
If you're looking for an Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit type situation, however, the best you can manage is to shoehorn in a bunch of whatever the mundane guy(s) can do that the casters can't (or enough to blast through the casters' spell slots and then leave some more), but that would get really old really quickly.
>>48281076
It can be done, but it's difficult if you want magic really powerful and martial characters to not be supernatural in any way, shape or form.
>>48281076
>One wants to be supernatural
>The other doesn't
Can't be balanced, see, you can balance martials and casters, but the whole supernatural/mundane can't be balanced.
>make magic inferior to hitting things in combat, very good at solving non combat problems outside of battle with enough time and the proper regents.
>>48281076
A few solutions I've seen posted before
>Flashy, powerful magic takes time/prep/rare material to use or is very taxing on the caster. A dude with a sword can hit shit any time any where and keep doing it for a while.
>Magic is more subtle than fireballs and beams of energy. Its powerful, but in ways you don't immediately notice.
>Magic carries a certain amount of inherent risk, fucking it up can create a backlash on the caster.
>Non-casters do not have "growth limits," so a person who swings a sword slowly becomes infinitely good at swinging a sword, outclassing the supernatural person (requires stretching definition of supernatural)
>Magic shit that enhances non-magic people's abilities is plentiful if you have the required skill to get it (again might be stretching definition of supernatural)
>>48281614
>Normal person outclassing supernatural person
The fuck? natural can't beat supernatural, that's like a short person being taller than a tall person
4e :¬)
>>48281661
>4e
>Martials not being supernatural
Choose one
>>48281649
Supernatural just means it doesn't fit under "natural" laws, doesn't necessarily imply "better."
Producing spaghetti from my fingertips is supernatural, doesn't mean I'm better at swinging a sword than some other guy. Hell I could be able to wield a sword with my mind, doesn't mean I'm better at it than a trained swordsman.
>>48281710
A mundane dude who swings great his sword will never beat a supernaturally good swordfighter
>>48281649
not really, no. even if the supernatural is collectively more powerful than the natural, it doesn't mean every instance of the supernatural is better than every instance of the natural, nor does it mean human access to the supernatural is better than human access to the natural. a wand that shoots fireballs is not inherently more powerful than a MIRV just because it's "supernatural".
besides, "supernatural" is a vague term at the best of times. magic itself wasn't originally considered supernatural.
Magic needs to be limited to prevent it from being retarded.
Good ways to do this and still maintain the feeling of being a powerful wizard include
>big dick magic, but must be cast ritualistically
>very limited range of magic available to any particular mage. Want to be a pyromancer? Enjoy your fireballs but you ain't getting to scry, cast illusions, or summon anything.
>risk and unreliability, make how much magical power they can get at a given moment dependent to a degree on luck, make it possible for a backlash to occur if they overdraw energy
>make magic best out of combat
>getting better at magic is a lot trickier than getting better at swords. You need to find an ancient tomb, a living dragon ember, a feather from one of the divine ravens, the Mccguffin of GM fiat of caster growth. Sword man needs to sword things.
>everything else in the thread
>magic use/time it takes to learn magic turns you into a weak fucker who can't hold his own in combat.
The more you choose the more interesting magic gets, you just need to tune up the size of fireballs in proportions to limitations
>>48281780
>mundane hyper skilled veteren with master crafter armor and weapons
vs
>DYEL skinny fat faggot with a rusty sword, but the sword is on fire
The Dresden Files RPG doesn't do a bad job of it.
Basically;
>Magic is powerful out the wazoo.
>Being a magician gives you less Fate Points to spend per session.
>Fate Points let you re-roll dice, give bonuses or just flat out fiat stuff about the game. You can spend them to say 'My character had a second dagger hidden away in his boot' or 'The plumbing in this old warehouse was really shitty and the sprinklers don't go off'.
>Magicians still super powerful. Vanilla mortals not powerful, but gain a small degree of GM Fiat to help tell better stories.
>>48281899
Second example isn't of a supernatural guy
>>48281780
Well of course not. But the supernaturally good swordfighter might not win a chess game against a mundane chessmaster.
Unless you say "supernatural people are supernaturally good at everything because I say so nya nya." then there is always room for the mundane people.
>>48281961
Yes it is, lighting your sword on fire at will is definitively supernatural.
>>48281980
read >>48281614
This guy said that the mundane dude can grow his limits and outclass the supernatural person, I might understand it wrong, but I understand it as outclassing him at his job...even though he's supernatural gifted in his job, that's impossible, mundane can't beat supernatural in its field.
>>48281988
Give me some oil and a match and I'll light your sword on fire.
>>48281076
if you have a point-buy system, it's a "simple" matter of pricing everything correctly. if magic is super-useful, make it super-expensive. it's fiddly because it requires you to determine the power level of every option, but otherwise there's no reason it wouldn't work. the result is that while a mage spends all of their character points becoming decent with a handful of spells, the muggle is becoming an expert at a wide range of things. instead of ending up with angel summoner and BMX bandit, you end up with...ron weasley and batman, or something along those lines.
>>48282015
It's magic fire. There it's now supernatural.
>>48282022
Anon, Batman knows magic
Narrativium and suspension of disbelief are a part of the setting's reality, and the laws of physics are able to be bent to a small degree.
An athlete can perform above and beyond what a human body is just by training hard enough. A sword can be sharpened until it cleaves through flesh with the clean cut of a surgeon's scalpel because an old bearded smith is using the finest grindstone. A warrior continues fighting when he should have succumbed to exsanguination because he's too determined to give up and die. The macguffins needed to stop an upcoming cosmic horror are placed conveniently enough that a ragtag group of misfits can collect them ahead of the enroaching armies of evil because the plot needs them to be there.
If your players can accept people poofing fire from nowhere to fight lizard-people, then they can accept fighters being fucking STRONK
>>48281365
>Which stories?
If you're asking the specific inspiration behind D&D's magic system? Jack Vance's "The Dying Earth", the sorcerers of Clark Ashton Smith's Zothique, and the wizards from the movie "The Raven" featuring Vincent Price and Peter Lorre.
If you want to know what's forming expectations today? Brent Weeks's "Night Angel" trilogy, Steven Erikson's "The Malazan Book of the Fallen", the Merlin portion of Zelazny's Amber books, anime like Slayers, Bastard, and whatnot, and all manner of video games.
>>48282015
But that's not at will, so it's not the same.
If you throw a molotov cocktail at a wizard, that doesn't make it a wizard's duel.
>>48282002
This tbhwyg
I love how this is handled in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and Dark Heresy. It basically comes down to three things:
>MAGIC IS POWERFUL
It's fuckin' badass. It can turn an encounter on its head. Walls will bleed, buildings will burn, people will die.
>MAGIC IS LIMITED
Not in how many you can cast per day. Cast as often as you dare to! But you probably know a handful of cantrips and, like, 3 to 6 serious spells. A sky wizard can fly and shoot lightning, but he can't turn invisible; only shadow wizards do that. A shadow wizard can make illusions, but can't shapeshift; that's beast-wizard magic. You don't get ALL the superpowers. You only get a couple. But they are super.
>MAGIC IS DANGEROUS
Go on, cast as often as you like! As often as you dare risking a roll on THIS table, and this other one, and this one here that's leaking blood out of the book and onto the floor.
I love the party dynamics that this leads to. The mage feels powerful, but he doesn't overshadow the mundanes because solving things with their skills is so much safer. The mage is the dangerous ace in the hole, the walking nitroglycerin, which is fun.
>>48282030
Then that doesn't make him a supernaturally good swordsman.
That makes him a supernaturally good sword igniter. I can't compete with that. I've only got oil and matches. That guy can do it at will. He could ignite a dozen swords in the time I do one, unless I go to a shitload of effort to think of a way to outclass him.
See where I'm going with this?
I've you're supernaturally skilled at a task, you are better than someone who is mundanely skilled at a task. It doesn't mean you can't beat them - you just can't try to brute force skill vs. skill. You need to try thinking.
>>48281076
Pathfinder
>>48282002
If you read the fucking brackets, you'd also see that the poster acknowledges depending on how you read it, that you're technically stretching definitions.
I could also point out that supernatural strength isn't necessarily even better than natural strength, the supernatural simply isn't stemming from muscles.
Again you're defining "supernatural" as "supernaturally good at X" where the OP simply asked if you could balance the supernatural with the natural.
>>48282085
someone who has 10 years of experience versus someone magically imbued with 1 year worth of experience
A zombie animated supernaturally rather poorly versus someone at the natty limit
The origin of power being supernatural has no effect on the measurement of that power.
>>48282085
Would you say that a 10 strength wizard who has magically given themselves 6 extra strength points isn't supernaturally strong, because there's a bouncer with 18 strength in the room?
>>48282002
being "supernaturally gifted" doesn't mean much. you're performing certain actions to get a certain result. you might sacrifice a chicken and instantly get the sword skills of a decent swordsman for 5 minutes - is that being supernaturally gifted? sure. doesn't mean you couldn't be defeated by an expert swordsman.
it might be said that the potential upper limit of the supernatural is higher than the potential upper limit of the natural, but that's also meaningless if humans don't have access to that upper limit. a wizard who casts fireball doesn't immediately conflagrate the entire universe in a firey holocaust.
>>48282132
Then we have to differenciate between origin and the level
>Supernatural strong as his strength comes from a non natural source
>Supernatural strong as his strength is beyond what's natural
>>48282132
>Would you say that a 10 strength wizard who has magically given themselves 6 extra strength points isn't supernaturally strong, because there's a bouncer with 18 strength in the room?
If you're going by D&D mechanics, they're BOTH supernaturally strong. If you're going by an 1 - 20 sort of bell curve, then no he's not supernaturally strong. If he starts going outside of human limits, that's when he's supernaturally strong.
>>48282125
>someone who has 10 years of experience versus someone magically imbued with 1 year worth of experience
Then it's a 10 year veteran vs. a 1 year veteran. Magically giving yourself a year of experience doesn't make you supernaturally gifted. Try 50. Or 100. Or something outside of the realm of human possibility. Something, you know, supernatural.
>The origin of power being supernatural has no effect on the measurement of that power.
I think we're approaching the term 'Supernatural' from two different angles. We're not looking at it as in 'Oh, this is not a naturally occuring event'-Supernatural, we're looking at it as 'Oh, this is outside of the possible scope of nature'-Supernatural.
IE: A skinny guy lifting a car off of his wife is not outside of the possibility of nature. The human body can lift incredible weights under duress. So a spell that gives you the strength to do the same, whilst supernatural in origin, doesn't make you supernaturally strong.
However, casting the same spell and having it give you the strength to juggle buses would both be supernatural in origin and make you supernaturally strong.
>tl;dr - there is a difference in something being supernatural in origin and a personal being supernaturally good at something.
>>48281076
>want spells to be impressive
Define impressive
>>48282215
"supernaturally gifted" doesn't mean "exceeding the potential natural limit through supernatural means" It means "gifted a nonspecific level of power through supernatural means"
>>48282232
Actually it can mean that or gifted beyond what's natural
>>48282248
No
Nothing about the phase "supernaturally gifted" means "beyond natural" Supernatural doesn't mean "beyond natural" it means "beyond our understanding of nature"
>>48282232
I think that's more gifted supernaturally than supernaturally gifted.
>>48282232
I disagree.
If I saw someone juggling well, the only time I'm going to think he's 'supernaturally gifted' is if is somehow juggling a hundred balls that are made of spikes and on fire.
Using supernaturally gifted in the context you describe requires pretty specific wording and interpretation to get the outcome you want.
>The mage cast a spell on me to make me stronger! I am supernaturally gifted.
No you fucking twat, you've had a spell cast on you. You're supernaturally enhanced.
>The gods granted me a magical sword! I am supernaturally gifted!
No, you've been granted a fucking boon.
>tl;dr Who ACTUALLY uses 'Supernaturally Gifted' to describe a circumstance when a character has been enhanced through supernatural means and not when someone is supernaturally good at something?
>>48282297
>Supernatural doesn't mean beyond natural it means beyond natural
Ok
>>48282297
>Supernatural
>of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural.
>of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity.
>of a superlative degree; preternatural.
>>48282343
>(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
>>48281076
Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader did it fine.
You can pop skulls and set people on fire with your mihd, but risk rolling perils of the warp every time you do.
Outside of high risk scenarios you're more often than not sager just using a bolter or flamer to accomplish the same task, and people who specialize in those will be better at using them than you are.
>>48282215
Not really. Being able to move normally with >100 pounds of gear on doesn't make you supernatural, just well trained.
Being unnaturally stronger than your body could normally physically accomplish? Yeah, that's a supernatural gift.
>>48282297
>Supernatural (adjective)
>1.(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature
This isn't 'beyond current scientific understanding' or 'beyond our understanding of nature'.
This is beyond scientific understanding and the laws of nature. As in ANY scientific or ANY laws of nature.
It's not "we'll figure out how this happened one day".
It's "We will never know how this came to be". If we could understand it, it wouldn't be supernatural. And if was within a persons natural means, then it wouldn't be beyond understanding.
>>48282412
>Being unnaturally stronger than your body could normally physically accomplish? Yeah, that's a supernatural gift.
That's not a supernaturally gift, it's being supernaturally strong. But that's kind of the point anon is making. Congratulations on understanding.
>>48282062
>If you throw a molotov cocktail at a wizard, that doesn't make it a wizard's duel
I am using this idea in my next game of Mage: The Awakening.
>>48281076
you dont, it would be boring
>>48282042
It's weird. I love the Amber books and Slayers, but I still want my D&D to feel like Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser.
Is there a way to make a magic system that's more based on preptime and planning? Make some potions to heal your party or turn yourself into a killing machine and put them in carefully labeled bottles before you go in the dungeon. Spend a day enchanting a ballista so it can knock down that door or even wall in one go. Take damage or hire others to take it for you in order to curse someone.
None of this fireball slinging shit, but magic is still scary and cool and dangerous.
ITT modern fedoratippers fail to understand antiquity's norms re: magic and the preternatural.
>>48282485
Well, Amber set the bar really damn high; you're not likely to recreate that in tabletop anyway, even if you're playing the Amber Diceless RPG or Lords of Gossamer and Shadow. You have a chance of emulating Fritz Leiber. Hell, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser were player characters before D&D was a thing. Jumping the canyon on rocket skis? Tell me you weren't thinking "you're gonna have to roll a nat 20 to get away with that shit".
>>48282546
Well thankfully RPGs weren't designed by the ancients, but by people living in modern societies.
>>48281076
>just really good at hitting things
Okay, they get to play classless characters.
>>48282076
This sounds more or less ideal, to me. Casters get to feel like their magic has punch to it, while not overwhelming the scene or being gated into bizarre resource mechanics. Mundanes get to feel useful, as the better they do their job the less often magic has to come out and potentially fuck everything up.
Also, from a story point of view, magic acts to push the narrative along, but not for free. Frank the explosion mage will never be stopped by a mere door, but the cost to explode it might eventually do him in.
>>48281076
Unknown Armies, Dark Heresy, WoD to an extent
>>48281780
Guys, look at it this way.
I play chess. I'm not amazing, but I know the rules and I can generally hold my own.
Player X is SUPERNATURALLY good at Chess. Supernaturally. Beyond the natural.
There is no way I can win if I just pit my natural skill vs. their supernatural skill.
So I have to think outside of just my skills. I have to play head games. Distract them. Fucking cheat if I can get away with it.
In short - being supernaturally good at something doesn't make you unbeatable, but it does mean you don't stand a chance if you just pit a mundane skill against their supernatural skill.
MAGIC MUST DEFEAT MAGIC
>>48282948
>If I'm smart enough I'll beat Flash in a race
>>48283088
Exactly.
I won't beat him just by outrunning him. But if I have someone hold him down, or break his legs, or just give him something more important to do, then I might stand a chance of cheating my way to victory.
You don't beat someone who is better than you at something by just relying on your skill. You need external elements. Them being cocky, cheating, any sort of edge or advantage.
>>48283088
Flash is pretty obviously a very extreme example of supernatural speed, anon. All the guy is saying that it's not as cut and dry as "supernatural wins 100% of the time"
>>48283109
And what if the player who plays Flash is as smart as you?
>>48283088
>>48283109
Superman beat The Flash at a race.
True, it was for charity, but no-one is saying that Superman is FASTER than The Flash. Just that The Flash has, canonically, been beaten by Superman in a race.
>>48283119
Then you are shit out of luck, son. Get a hammer. No witnesses.
Supernatural things are better than natural things. This is simply the way things are. If you use natural ability to outcompete a supernatural thing, your 'natural' ability is supernatural by virtue of having gone outside the natural order of supernatural>natural.
Stop trying to fight it, it's going to happen anyways.
>I don't want to be supernatural but I want to be able to beat Hulk at arm wrestling
>>48283143
>Supernatural things are better than natural things.
No, we've been over this. Supernatural things are just things that cannot be explained by natural law.
If Uri Geller can bend spoons with his mindhe can'the has a supernatural spoon-bending ability. But I can still bend spoons better and faster, naturally, with a pair of pliers. My natural tool-based spoon bending is better than his supernatural spoon bending.
>>48283189
But in that instance Uri Geller isn't a supernaturally good spoon bender. He can just do it supernaturally.
I think what >>48283143 means is that things that are supernaturally good at things are better than people who are naturally good at something.
>>48283189
see >>48282343
>of a superlative degree; preternatural.
Depends of the definition. Uri Geller clearly doesn't bend spoons at a superlative degree
>>48283189
No, we've been over this. Super = above, natural = natural. Above natural. Supernatural things are simply better than natural things, bar none.
Uri Geller's supernatural spoon bending is better than your pliers because YOU aren't bending the spoon, your pliers are. Pliers don't have all the other things that Uri Geller has, and Uri Geller can still do everything pliers can to a spoon. And if a pair of pliers could bend a spoon AND do everything Uri Geller can do, then it's a damned supernatural pair of pliers.
Just let it happen. This is the way things are.
>>48283240
>>48283240
>If you define things the way I want, I win by definition, so there
>>48282076
The main problem with Dark Heresy is that while the dire cost of mucking about with warp stuff is very strong in the fluff, in actual play it tends to much less of an issue for two main reasons.
The first is that the extreme (and in-universe completely understandable) restrictions and stigma attached to psykers often get reduced or discarded in practice because it's less fun for most people on the gaming table. The Commissar with an itchy trigger figure waiting for the first whiffs of anything less 110% purity is very 40k but Dave feels rather attached to his character so he is less likely to be summarily executed or censured harshly even when it is appropriate in-character.
The second and bigger problem is that the awful consequences are seldom restricted to only the psyker. Public perils get the whole party in hot water, and the ultimate disaster of demonic possession kills the psyker but it's the party that has to deal with the fallout. Eternal damnation is less of a restraint when you can reroll for next session.
These are of course player dependant, but I've seen the pattern across several seperate groups. Players of psykers get to enjoy the benefits of playing powerful space wizards with few of the in-character drawbacks acting as an actual limitation or deterrent.
I agree wholeheartedly though with the other points about limitations and restrictions making magic both more balanced but also more interesting. Mage the Ascension is a study in how much of the flavour and enjoyment of magic can derive from creating and using a system of self-imposed limitations. The demands of any given Mage's paradigm are (barring very high level shit) far more restrictive than the base mechanical framework of the Spheres, both in terms of what they can do and how they do it.
>>48283126
IIRC that was retconned as the flash letting him win.
Which makes sense. The flash runs so fast he arrives at his destination before he started.
SO I guess you're saying if you convince the spellcaster to let you win your martial can keep up?
which might be a good metaphor for just talking these things out.
This
>>48282076
and this
>>48282022
are probably the most straight forward options.
I would advise against ritual casting systems since it can fuck up the passing of the game if the non-casters don't have equally prep-time based activities.
If Vance is on the table I would also suggest taking a look at OD&D's magic. Even 1st level spells are powerful but they very specific and spell slots are limited. Not to mention the fact that player's don't learn spells automatically but have to find them as they adventure. It's simple, classic and if you like resource management style play, it works.
>>48283543
>IIRC that was retconned as the flash letting him win.
Yep yep.
>SO I guess you're saying if you convince the spellcaster to let you win your martial can keep up?
Missed the point so hard you're practically immune to arrow barrage.
I'm saying that you could beat The Flash as a race, but that doesn't mean you're faster than The Flash.
You could beat a supernaturally good swordsman in a swordfight, but that doesn't mean you're a better sword fighter.
You could beat a supernaturally good chess player, but it doesn't mean you're better at chess.
Winning doesn't mean your better than your opponent, it means you beat them.
>>48281076
> impressive spells
> balanced martial and magical
Make magic attacks capable of hitting near targets without line of sight, or without line of effect, or hitting multiple targets at once, mostly applying a powerful condition rather than direct damage.
Make martial attacks the opposite of this, always single target, but a substantial hit allowing a free followup in a chain, and always dealing some damage, even with special moves like a trip attack.
>>48282038
>>48282022
This is good if you want supernatural vs mundane give mundane limited control of the narrativeBatman falls off a cliff his player declares that he had the batwing circling on auto-pilot and grappels onto it
My rule of thumb is that if you want wizards to fly and teleport and shoot all sorts of big flashy magical nonsense at enemies and basically have superpowers while also having non-powered characters you're better off playing a superhero system that is built around superheroes genre conventions and can accommodate you wanting to play Batman/Shang Chi/Green Arrow like Mutants&Masterminds or Champions or Wild Talents or any number of other systems that would be better suited to what you want
>>48281689
They aren't. Within their world they are perfectly normal and "mundane". That's what the keyword Martial literally means in the context of the system.
A perfect example of this is that monks are supernatural as their keyword is Psionics, which covers internally generated magics such as Chi or mind magics.
Now, those martials don't obey Earth physics, yes, but that doesn't matter in the context of a completely separate universe from us and what we know to be the limits within our universe.
>>48284517
>Now, those martials don't obey Earth physics, yes, but that doesn't matter in the context of a completely separate universe from us and what we know to be the limits within our universe.
True, but it's not the internal universe's mechanics that we're dealing with. It's RL players who want to play mundane people.
Not mundane in the relative setting, but mundane by their understanding of reality.
It doesn't matter if everyone in your custom brew setting can fly and spit fire, players won't see them as 'mundane' even if the setting considers it second nature and basic.
So it's all great that in D&D being Martial is different from being supernatural, it doesn't make them any less superpowered when looked at from a RL perspective.
>>48284574
Then that player is shit. That's literally it. If they can't accept that a different universe operates on different assumptions of what possible for a mundane dude, then they are shit and shouldn't be playing. Its that simple.
They need to learn to adjust their expectations to the universe their character is in or start accepting that their character is going to be useless after a certain point.
Only ignorant autists would expect a completely different universe to adhere to what can happen in ours.
>>48282042
Ahh, I haven't read any of the ones in that second group (except the beginning of the Night Angel trilogy, but all the magic I've seen so far is a dude with Hide in Plain Sight and vague mention of prophecy) so that may be why I haven't heard of casters doing supercrazy ridiculous shit at the drop of a hat.
Though, come to think of it, magic being powerful is at least partially up to how the DM (or whoever) describes it. "Your fireball strikes the Orc in the side and blasts a huge chunk out of his armor, leaving a large expanse of blackened flesh behind" sounds much more impressive than "you deal 12 fire damage to him. He attacks you with his great axe, 10 damage."
>>48281076
Gurps, more or less.
They carefully analyze the points costs for various things so that more or less, the characters are equally powerful for the same points.
At least in the general adventure. It gets weird when you have a mostly social character/NPC, because while they can rally entire societies, or pull off bullshit bluffs, or be richer than God, they fold like a gutshot hooker in a fight.
Like, take Franklin Delano Roosevelt. High points cost, cannot fight worth a damn because he's a sickly cripple (at least in the time of his life most people think of him in.) Also the commander in chief of a powerful country.
A 30 point child street gang member could probably take him. (Not the secret service guards or whatever that are part of his assumed position of course. They will punch his teeth down this throat)
>>48284617
>Then that player is shit.
What are you, a fuckwit?
Go back and read OP's post.
The players want a system where magic is powerful and impressive, but where other people can play just regular joes who are still on - comparatively - the same power levels.
Several such systems have already been posted - like WFRP 2ed, Dark Heresy, FATE, Unknown Armies.
As for seeing Martials in D&D as superpowered...they fucking are. The game itself says that a 10 in a Stat is considered human normal. Sure this might be regular in the setting, but it doesn't make them any less superpowered to our perspective.
I mean, fuck - in Greek Mythology the Gods and demi-gods were capable of fucking amazing feats and even though it was relatively regular and accepted in the setting, it doesn't change whether or not it looks superpowered.
Fuck it, I'm drunk, you're an asshole.
>>48284574
would you call wuxia a subset of the superhero genre, then?
>>48284721
I'm not super familiar with the genre, but from what I'm reading it looks closer to Fantasy than Superhero.
>>48284642
>Though, come to think of it, magic being powerful is at least partially up to how the DM (or whoever) describes it. "Your fireball strikes the Orc in the side and blasts a huge chunk out of his armor, leaving a large expanse of blackened flesh behind" sounds much more impressive than "you deal 12 fire damage to him. He attacks you with his great axe, 10 damage."
The thing you need to understand is that blastey evocation type magic in 3.5 is actually not the most broken part of it.
The broken part is, take ANY situation. Literally any. Even something like "Antimagic field around golems" and guess what? Magic can fix it. There's a spell for literally ANYTHING.
Why should a rogue even bother to focus on skills like jump, climb or tumble when Wizard mc Wizard can cast "Fly" and circumvent all of that.
Why should the fighter bother destroying a door when knock does the same thing without the need of a roll?
It's fine when magic is just "how wizards fight" in D&D (at least until we get to save or suck/die spells) but not when magic is literally the answer to ANY PROBLEM.
>>48284756
And- believe me- I know the typical response to this.
"Oh but just enforce spell components" or "Oh but you need to construct your dungeon to force the wizard to lose his spell slots" and believe me.
Every single answer for "dealing" with wizards is a very complex, cumbersome experience that's either incredibly tricky to pull off in game naturally without just outright telling the wizard player he needs to sit down and not break the game (which is a solution but it doesn't make the objective element of the game any better) or it tackles systems so complicated and granular 99% of DM's are not even going to bother and gloss over that shit anyway.
>>48284700
I did read it. And I think the player needs a talking too about changing his expectations of what it means to be mundane within that universe. If magic and martial are on the same power level, then martials are going to be super powered compared to our universe. It's literally inevitable unless you completely nerf magic into being a boring, highly constricted, no fun allowed set of abilities.
Sure the fighter can toss a grenade into a room, and the wizard tosses a fireball of equivalent damage. What's that, martials can't fly or leap tall buildings? Sorry wizard, you don't get to fly or teleport through solid matter.
What's that a wizard wants to spy on some dude far away via scrying? Nope, the fighter has no equivalent ability therefore he can't. You're going to have to learn a ritual that replicates a spyglass and use that instead.
Im sure you get the point of this by now. Either one gets superpowered or the other gets nerfed to hell, there is no way around this. Every system that tries to balance the two always comes out on one side or another, just like all the systems you quoted at me. Hint: it's usually giving spell casters neat toys and martials shit.
A player wants Earth mundane characters, then no spellcasters. A player wants magic, then superpowered martials ahoy.
Also arguing on 4chan while drunk is the stupidest idea I have ever heard of.
I will cop to being an asshole though.
>>48284909
>I did read it. And I think the player needs a talking too about changing his expectations of what it means to be mundane within that universe
YOU FUCKING IGNORANT SHIT.
HE DOESN'T WANT TO PLAY A MUNDANE CHARACTER IN THAT UNIVERSE.
HE WANTS TO PLAY A CHARACTER THAT'S MUNDANE AS IT RELATES TO OUR UNIVERSE.
HOW IS YOUR SWISS CHEESE BRAIN FAILING TO ABSORB THIS IDEA.
>A player wants Earth mundane characters, then no spellcasters. A player wants magic, then superpowered martials ahoy.
HOLY FUCK, YOU DISEASED SWINE, WE'VE ALREADY COVERED SEVERAL SYSTEMS THAT ALLOW BOTH HIGH MAGIC AND MUNDANE CHARACTERS WHILE KEEPING THEM BOTH BALANCED. HAS THE YEARS OF GETTING CUM IN YOUR EYES FINALLY BLINDED YOU?
>>48281076
Exalted 3rd edition. Don't touch 2.5, just go directly to 3rd.
>>48284756
>The thing you need to understand is that blastey evocation type magic in 3.5 is actually not the most broken part of it.
I'm aware of that, and I was in no way saying that OP should play D&D (technically I wasn't saying he shouldn't, either, since I wasn't commenting on that).
I was saying that spicing up the language OP or OP's DM uses would help make magic feel more powerful, in whatever system he ends up using.
>>48281614
>Magic carries a certain amount of inherent risk, fucking it up can create a backlash on the caster.
This right here was VERY effective at keeping my psyker players in line in Dark Heresy.
Nothing like having the arbitrator start beating you to death because you turned the guardsman's lungs into spiders to teach you not to spam powers recklessly.
>>48284954
Not the guy you're screaming in impotent rage at
But if a player wants to play RL mundane Earth physics character in a world of wizards and monsters and magic then he and every other player needs to know that he will be a worthless drain on everyones time, resources and fun
If other players can fly, shape shift, heal people and shoot lightning and fire and instant death spells while he can't do any of that then you tailor the encounter to one or the other
In the case of the magic characters being the base power level the mundane is playing the equivalent of a blind deaf mute quadruple amputee unable to contribute nothing
In the case of the mundane being base level the magic fuckers will steamroll every encounter period
To balance magic with Real World Mundane it will have to be made next to useless and you might as well not include it in the game
>>48284954
>HE DOESN'T WANT TO PLAY A MUNDANE CHARACTER IN THAT UNIVERSE.
>HE WANTS TO PLAY A CHARACTER THAT'S MUNDANE AS IT RELATES TO OUR UNIVERSE.
Then fuck him. That is a player who is fucking retarded and going to fuck up the game long term due to poor expectations of what a martial is capable of doing in a fantasy setting.
>WE'VE ALREADY COVERED SEVERAL SYSTEMS THAT ALLOW BOTH HIGH MAGIC AND MUNDANE CHARACTERS WHILE KEEPING THEM BOTH BALANCED
No you haven't. WFRPG isn't balanced, it just has casters that are walking party destroyers with a limited set of powers. Sure it's fun, but he can completely outclass a mundane if they roll well on the mishap tables or utterly ruin everyone's fun by rolling extremely poorly. Fate doesn't pretend about balance since it's a purely narrative system with very few rules and only beholden to the group consensus. Unknown Armies wasn't talked about and I have no experience with the system to say otherwise. Did you see the post about Dark Heresy and how psykers tend to completely ignore their supposed limitations and be walking plot destroyers?
Casters get sweet shit and martials get fuck all. I, Martial Manfred swing my sword real hard at the bandit. Meanwhile Caster McGee shoots a fireball out his ass at the enemy and fries 5 guys, he rolls on the magic mishap table and gets a headache and a wee bit o' constipation. So balanced.
I'll thank you to leave your fetishes out of this conversation.
by definition, supernatural things cannot exist..
>>48285257
>To balance magic with Real World Mundane it will have to be made next to useless and you might as well not include it in the game
You do understand that IN THIS THREAD there has already been numerous posts of systems that balance normal, Earth RL mundane characters with Super Spesshul Wizards right?
>>48285300
>WFRPG isn't balanced, it just has casters that are walking party destroyers with a limited set of powers
WFRP. And it's not balanced WELL, but it is balanced. It's just that the scales swing massively. You either pull off huge shit, or everything explodes. No middle ground.
Also, the FATE system handles it great. Check out the DFRPG. Unknown Armies also tends to be pretty decently balanced, but I wouldn't say the spell casters in that setting are super powerful. Just...bizarre.
The best balances to maintain a character with massive powers vs. one without is allowing story-telling leeway. Seriously, the answer to this entire thread is the FATE system.
>>48283088
>A turtle could never beat a Hare at a race!
I should remind people, we have never confirmed a person existing who would have been over 8th level or so in non-NPC classes.
>But Jesus
Okay, name the miracles of Jesus and look what level spells those are. Discount the resurection, that was obviously direct intervention from his deity, not a spell he cast . Though it only adds a level or two anyway.
Clearly, a 20th level fighter should actually be capable of those kinds of feats seen in myth. Heracles redirecting a river to clean the stables was just a sheer feat of strength because he had just that many levels.
>But martials can't be supernatural
Yes and natural people have never gotten that high in levels. Get enough levels in fighter? That just means you're that strong and tough because that's what people are capable of when you get that high in level.
>>48286436
Flash may be an extreme example of a "supernatural" character but it's still ridiculous to say that you can beat a guy who basically lives life in a Time Stop spell with Haste layered on top for good measure no matter how much you plan
>>48281076
>HaveyoutriednotplayingD&Dfinder.jpg
>>48281076
Narrative systems can handle this pretty well usually.
>>48286548
Dude, he's lost races before. Read literally any of the posts in this thread.
>>48286702
I know
But the only reason any comic character has ever lost anything is Plot
That's it Superman lost a fight Plot
Martian Manhunter lost against anything ever Plot
It was a DOOM Bot because Plot
Batman doesn't immediately die against anyone other than mobsters and other non supers PLOT
I guess what I'm saying is if you give anyone superpowers in a gameMagic and any sort of wizardry counts as superpowersyou need to give everyone superpowers or relegate them to NPC status.
If you still insist on having superhuman demigods and normal humans on the same team then the puny human needs to be able to invoke the same Plot Armor that protects them in fiction
>>48286788
Dude, PLOT wasn't the answer - it was extenuating circumstances.
If you want to beat someone who is supernaturally skilled at X, you don't use your normal skills at X, you rig the game in your favour so his skill doesn't matter.
I personally like the magic system of Shadowrun. Mages can do some broken shit, but casting always produces drain which, if not resisted, turns into damage. So you may cast a extremely powerful spell, sure. But you might pass out (best case) or even die (worst case)
Also they can't get augments or their magic suffers.
>>48284954
How stupid can one person be?
>>48281076
Spheres of Power caster + Path of War martial initiator in pathfinder.
>>48286867
I mean the guy claiming players are shit, not the guy yelling.
Give the mundane fighters supernatural weapons and supernatural armor and a heroic destiny and call it a day.
>>48286876
I'M NOT YELLING, MY CAPSLOCK IS BROKEN.
>>48286876
Players know nothing, is up to the Gm to teach them how to play
>>48287287
You are the worst kind of GM if you think gaming is about teaching people the right way to have fun and not about collaboratively having a good time.
>>48281076
Riddle of Steel seems quite good in that regard. While casters can do all sorts of crazy shit with time at their hand, using spells in a combat round is quite limited, since those are short and only allow for rather simple spells. And fighting is not just "I attack" but also what maneuver you use or how you defend.
But I (sadly) have no first hand experience (yet), so keep that in mind.
Anima, answer has been the same for years but /tg/ is bad at magic AND math.
>>48287665
/thread
Anybody who thinks magic should be and must be better by default is never worth playing RPG's with. They are either an idiot or a spiteful asshole.
>>48284909
This works in systems that are not shit so why are you acting like its impossible.
In legends and fantasy mundane warriors have defeated evil wizards with nothing but skill and cunning.
>>48281649
>The fuck? natural can't beat supernatural, that's like a short person being taller than a tall person
You have no imagination, anon.
>>48287715
Nobody is saying magic can't be the same power level as martials. It's just that a common goal of players seems to be this:
>both players want to play a high magic game
>one player wants to play one of the powerful mages in the game
>another player wants to play a completely mundane "i hit it with my sword" fighter type.
>both players want these classes to be completely balanced against each other.
It seems like a contradictory set of goals. In a high magic setting, martials need to use magic to keep up, but players don't want to do that, for whatever reason.
>>48288065
Which is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the assholes in this very thread who are saying magic MUST be more powerful by default. Don't pretend they don't exist, they show up every single this this topic is discussed.
Besides, wizards who can summon demons, cast mass illusions and wither people into ash still get killed by skilled and cunning warriors all the time in the supposed inspirations of DnD.
>>48287950
He's still short, he's just on higher ground due Jedi training
>>48287950
Butthurt manlet detected
>>48286806
>If you want to beat someone who is supernaturally skilled at X, you don't use your normal skills at X, you rig the game in your favour so his skill doesn't matter.
I for one, understand and agree with you.
I used the same point to explain how Batman could win against the Avengers a while back.
Winning doesn't always mean being more powerful, sometimes it just means noping the fuck out until you can gain the advantage.
>>48288522
The problem with this is that to be able to beat him in his field with tangential methods you need to be smarter, and some times martialfags aren't way smarter than casterfags, they tend to be a similar level of intellect, so when you try to rig the game he can do the same but better because he tends to have more and better options
>>48288374
>He's still short, he's just on higher ground due Jedi training
Heh
>>48288383
>Butthurt manlet detected
Nah, 5'10".
I just am capable of imagining something as wildly outlandish as a method of making yourself taller.
Nearly went with a pic of a ladder slam dunk, but I figured that one would appeal to /tg/ more.
>>48288553
>5'10"
Manlet detected.
>>48281076
D&D 4e does this
>>48281076
In theory, you can achieve this quite easily with narrative games by giving both things ( non-supernatural and supernatural characters) mechanical equivalence.
So Bizard the wizard can persuade the shopkeep by using a charm person spell or Muckster the huckster can con him into doing what he wants but as long as both require the same things, rely on the same skills and achieve similar results then both can co-exist in the same power level.
>>48288572
Already mentioned, Anima also does, but the players want mundane martials, mundane as something limited by what you can do irl, and 4e martials aren't "mundane" but irl standards
>>48288621
They are until level 10-ish I think.
>>48288542
In another thread, we came up with three builds for a magic-free fighter to be effective.
>Bruce "Rock" Lee:
The fighter who's just That Good. He can punch faster than the mage can cast, dodge Magic Missile, and sunder with his fists.
>Captain Charming:
The diplomancer face fighter capable of charming and leading others. He doesn't do magic, he's got a guy for that.
>Batman the Beastmaster with Knowledge(Magic Lore)
Essentially, skilled fighter that's an expert in magic and methods to nullify them, and used beasts to fight them.
>>48288567
>>5'10"
>Manlet detected.
If you say so, Stretch.
>>48288698
>Rock Lee
>Magic-free
>Batman
>Magic-free
Both of these characters know and one of them uses magic intensively
>>48288698
>Sunder with his firsts
>Not magic bullshit
>>48288780
>Both of these characters
Batman and Rock Lee are just used as easy character archetype references, not the literal character
>one of them uses magic intensively
Rock Lee uses magic less than his contemporaries. The Karate Kid was determined to be a better example, but I am not familiar with the comic book character.
>>48288797
>>Sunder with his fists
>>Not magic bullshit
It's not, he's just That Good.
Or possibly an exaggeration I just made up.
>>48288733
What is this, an image for manlets? Do you guys see things smaller too lmao
>>48288932
>Rock Lee uses magic less than his contemporaries
Since his first appearance he uses the Hachimon Tonkou in every combat ever, and that's a heavily magic technique in the setting to the point only special as fuck beings are able to use it. People like to point Rock Lee as the mundane dude in Naruto, and though he might have started like that, he clearly isn't.
Even people like Tenten (kunai spamming bitch) or Kankuro (closet gay who plays with dolls) are way more mundane than Lee.
>>48288780
the vast majority of versions of batman have no magic. when people talk about batman as a non-magic character you should understand what that means.
>>48288939
Heh
>>48288980
Okay.
But his character is still devoted to training physically, so it works as a character type.
Also, Bruce.
>>48281076
Fate gives supernatural characters progressively less Fate points (Things that can be used to affect rolls, the plot, etc), so playing a supernatural character gives you a lot of power but the more power you have, the more constrained you are in wielding it. You might be able to run something like that.
>>48282076
I too am a fan of having magic be wild, dangerous, and difficult to control in theory. In practice though, it drives players nuts when the first spell they roll causes a demon to bust out of their skull.
Strangely enough, I think DotA actually explains magic-lore the best -- a small town wizard might know one very specific spell, someone with years of training might know two, and someone with innate talent and a lifetime of training might know three. Very, very few individuals master more than that, and the ones that do are usually very exceptional.
That's part of what made Invoker so different in that setting, the fact that he's got 10 or so spells memorized and has forgotten many more that were discarded as obsolete. He's also lived for thousands of years to learn all that, and suffers from massive narcissism since the only things he cares about are magic (And himself).
>>48281076
>>some want to play characters with no supernatural abilities, just really good at hitting things.
One way to go around it is to make magic rather unwieldy in combat.
You can also be careful about creating spells with direct combat applications, in particular direct damage and effective crowd control.
Basically, the magician may be more versatile in general, but the other guy ends up being a lot better at bonking heads, allowing both to be of similar importance to the story overall.
Remember that Gandalf was mostly a diplomancer. He didn't nuke orc armies, he gave men the spirit to fight them.
>>48281076
Have you tried not playing D&D?
This is a serious question. Are you aware that other games exist? Do you understand that magic is fictional and can have whatever limitations the author wants?
Making magic powerful doesn't mean it has to be easy, fast, safe or cheap. For example, if a mage casting *any* spell has to stand still for ten seconds while floating and glowing, enemies can see that and interrupt or take cover. Magic is capable of doing things that would be impossible otherwise, but if you want to just aim and shoot, you play an archer. That's just one way off the top of my head.
>>48281661
Yep, its one of the main reasons I like it, and the wealth of player choice in class/build/archetype.
>Level 1
>BMX Bandit and Crab Controller
>Level 15
>Motorbike Marauder and Angel Summoner
Problem solved.
>>48291098
But wouldn't a motorbike maurader still be comparatively much less powerful to an Angel Summoner?
>>48291148
No.
>>48291179
"Alright using my motorbike I'll run over these terrorists, grab the hostage and get out of there while I take care of the rest-"
"Yes or I could summon a motorbike angel to run them over and grab the hostage?"
>>48291195
The angel would get shot by the terrorists, Motorbike Marauder could wheelie in and use his special move "Tire Hurricane Tornado" to defeat them all.
Ideally, a caster should be better for utility but a martial should be better for combat.
Short answer: Don't play D&D
Long answer
It is a matter of power scaling within universe.
It is really not hard.
Power of character is something that should be taken as relative to universe. You have superpowered universe, you need superpowered characters. You have tame universe, there is no need for turbo powers to feel powerful. As much as I dislike D&D, it is lingua franca of TTRPGs, so going by it's terms - a 7 lvl wizard thrown into our reality is fucking god. He is able to bend reality by means unthinkable by our normal rules. But, in Forgotten Realms where there is a 10+ lvl caster in every bigger village said wizard is basically no one. He needs 10 more lvls and more flashy powers to be someone of note.
And now, 7 lvl martial being equivalent to said wizard, can be pretty much balanced with him, without breaking laws of the mundane in a really stretching way - I'd say, hollywood action hero tier, as opposed to wuxia and anime, at example. 17 lvl martial is wuxia tier, and despite that
Thing is, you don't need those 10 lvls if you build your world around low-power concepts. Make your dragons bus-sized fire-breathing winged lizards instead of block sized winged lizards breathing fucking inferno and having spellcasting ability of top-notch human mage in addition. And even within those 7 lvls mage has a multitude of options.
Unless you need your mages to be SO FUCKING POWERFUL they stop time, teleport themselves into inerdimensional fortresses, summon archdemons and other shit like that, all in few seconds, then I guess there is no balancing without going full wuxia.
>>48284909
By that logic you can't balance anything, even within martials sphere, dumbass.
Fighter can't sneak into enemy fortress and swap sikret dokuments? NEERF ROGUE DISBALANCED SHIT
Rogue can't fight head-on with several enemies at once? NEEERF FIGHTER OP
Retard.
>>48282076
Except you never end up rolling on the table (at least in Fantasy - Dark Heresy is way more cruel to psykers). Shit, priests, who are described as using safer magic, get fucked over way more than wizards do in WFRPG.
>>48291543
*and despite that still sucks compared to casters
>>48281404
Yes it can, you just can't have spells(or supernatural in general) be these big flashy things that can solve every problem.
>>48281614
Also, just force the magic users to specialise.
The problem with D&D wizards is that, as they level up, they automatically gain access to All The Magic, turning them into walking swiss army knives. They can do everything better than almost every other class, which makes those other classes feel redundant.
This can be alleviated easily, just by forcing wizards to choose between fireballs and teleportation. Both are useful, but the wizard can't have both. Instead, they have to make a choice about what they want their class to be, just like every other player.
>>48291242
The angels are nigh omnipotent.
>>48291888
depends on the setting
Wheel of time did martial/magic balance well. The three main characters are both martial and magical.
I don't know if you can really make mundanes on the same level as magics, without going full tech.
>>48288621
>Anima also does
It also triggers /tg/
>Technicians muscle'ing so hard they teleport around and throw ki nukes
>LITERALLY INVICIBLE weaponmaster
>Tao fisting reality apart
>Each strike of the fighter is equivalent to a 50 cal out of his sheer ability and it only gets worse
>So agile you just out-speed the filthy caster scum
>Caster deletes people from the timeline
>Can summon demons of his own creation
>Turn a city into a volcano
>Martials can just KILL him while splitting and parrying his death magic apart
>Mentalists making everything around them into brain-dead vegetables
>>48292552
Don't forget the capstone Technique which is literally initiating Second Impact on someone's face.
>>48292893
Look man, you always need the ability to show show them how much you hate them. And Third Impacting someone it's a pretty good way to..
>>48292327
Really? Magic bullshit was super OP by the end and the only way that pure warriors were able to stand up is because of a magic-proof medallion.
>>48292942
None of the main three were nonmagical.Mat had supernaturally insane luck, the memories of warriors and generals and possibly lovers from thousands of generations stuffed in his head, and the anti-magic but magic itself medallion.
Rand was the most powerful magical caster ever, capable of channelling enough magical power to fight gods, break continents in half, and also seemed to have time magic at the end.
Perrin is the most hax of all. He achieved the power to teleport anywhere instantly, and complete mastery of the dream world, to the point that he could probably assassinate anyone he ever wanted to, but he doesn't want to.
The warriors are only able to compete with the use of magic items true. But they're still useful for most of the series, because magic is dangerous, and casters often are forced into willpower duels with other casters for the majority of the fight. Meaning they have to rely on martials for protection.
>>48292327
Wheel of Time magic is crazy OP and the main characters of the series are all super magical destined heroes from ancient prophecy
>>48281076
magic can be big but not effective
>>48281076
Play Warhammer fantasy.
>>48292327
Wheel of Time didn't balance magic and martials at ALL, and pretty much the only reason Mat and Perrin stayed relevant was because they were destined to be great heroes - and even then they were far from mundane long before the end of the series.
