One True High Queen Edition
Discuss the ore and viability of the Warcraft universe in tabletop.
>>48215453
Dark Iron Dwarves have the greatest justice system! PROVE ME WRONG!
I read through these threads and see all the fuckups that blizzard has done with the game over the years and expansions. Yet I still enjoy WoW and really would love to do a game in the warcraft universe, but I never bothered to do the d20 system. That and I'm not a huge lore person so it would be nearly impossible for me to DM, yet the setting would be familiar to my players for them to enjoy.
>>48215566
I've been wanting to do the same, setting the game a little after Frozen Throne. I'd probably just end up using Pathfinder, though, with some modified racial characteristics or something.
That begs the question what system would one use for a warcraft game if not the official Warcraft RPG?
Man, I like the Horde and Alliance roughly equally, but it's so difficult to like the Horde because its fanbase can be so much more obnoxious than the Alliance.
>>48215453
Just got back to RPing on WoW. Damn, this is a lot more fun than before!
Wyrmrest Accord for life!
>>48217344
>tfw can't decide what I want to RP on horde
>>48217554
The answer is always Troll or Tauren.
>>48217330
>because its fanbase
>Deciding anything because of FANBASE
turns out you are the worst scum of all anon. Go kill yourself.
>>48217758
Wow, someone's triggered. So triggered that anon can't even into reading comprehension.
I didn't say I was deciding anything. Just saying that, although I like both, Horde fans can be very difficult.
>>48215566
>That and I'm not a huge lore person so it would be nearly impossible for me to DM
I hopped on the WoW train late, so there's a lot of lore I'm not as intimately familiar with as my players. So I bullshit.
>It's an alternate universe.
>If you notice any significant differences from the main universe, feel free to mention them.
>Details may be different intentionally.
And my players aren't butthurt retards, so they're comfortable accepting this.
>>48217803
>>48217330
My experience tends to be the opposite, Horde players generally being the older more mature ones and Alliance being filled with the 12-year-olds who think they're cool for swearing at you and following you around while you're leveling a toon.But maybe we just surround ourselves with the good players in our respective factions and the only people we see on the opposing side are the ones everyone else despises.
>>48217330
Having played - and actively playing - both factions, I can say that both sides have a similar ratio of bros to douchebags. Alliance tends to be more populated, though, so you get more douche by volume.
I did intentionally choose medium population servers that didn't have a reputation for being clusterfucks, though.
Completely unrelated, but cross-realm dungeon runs have demonstrated that Moonguard tanks are great at their job, but kind of weird. Where as Moonguard healers and DPS are usually fucktards.
>>48217998
>>48218135
Maybe you guys have just had better experiences than me. When I played Horde more actively, I was in a guild filled with teenagers talking about how cool it'll be when they turn 21 and are able to drink or whatever.
And when I went to see The Force Awakens and the Warcraft trailer showed, some sperg shouted out, "FOR THE HORDE!" in a theater.
Don't get me wrong, I've had plenty of good Horde experiences too and have known plenty of good Horde fans, and I'm aware the sperglords are a minority, but they are a very loud minority.
>>48215523
Tell me about it.
>>48219059
I like to interpret Dark Iron law as such --- if you can survive the crucible that is the Ring of Law, you are in the right.
All the while, Shadowforge City is assuredly supporting the Undermarket economy with the purchase, exporting and importing of exotic beasts, "cattle" and prisoners who attempt to infiltrate lands under the rightful dominion of His grace, Emperor Dagran Thaurissan.
Along with the Ring of Law been overseen by High Justice Grimstone, fair and just in his judgement, the entry fees of the common dwarves and percentage of profits made from gambling further funds the grand coffers of the Dark Iron Clan.
>>48217330
Its publicly acceptable to be a Horde fanboy. Not so for the Alliance.
>>48219344
Don't forget that the entertainment is great for morale.Until everyone gets butchered by pissed off adventurers.
>>48219344
>- if you can survive the crucible that is the Ring of Law, you are in the right.
So basically might makes right? Do whatever you want as long as you can survive a trial by combat?
>>48219599
-- Or if you have the most money, or the greatest cunning. And beyond being an endurance run, there's no way that both Grimstone and the audience won't be stacking the odds against you -- handicapping you, throwing trash into the arena -- whatever they can to get things in their favor
I always loved the aesthetics of the Dark Iron Dwarves and the Black Rock Horde.
the whole Area + the Black Rock itself has always been my favourite part in Warcraft lore.
>>48219940
Dark irons are the best dorfs
Butterflies and hillsdorfs need not apply
>>48219940
>tfw Azeroth's Blackrock Clan has probably finally been wiped out now that WoD is over and we've cleared NewBRS a billion times by now
>>48220269
I assume a sizeable amount followed Eitrigg and Varok Saurfang into the new Horde senpai
>>48217758
While that perspective works fine with things like movies, books, shows, movies, single-player games, etc., for a Massively Multiplayer Online game on the level of World of Warcraft? Then yes, I'd say for that fanbase definitely matters.
>>48220309
some of them probably, but the only clan that gets to exist in the New Horde is the Warsong
>>48217554
Don't think of race first, think of the type of character you'd like to role play as. Then, think what race what fit that character idea's personality best.
Though race surely affects character, a Tauren or Pandaren is more likely to be wise and contemplative and seek a peaceful solution than an Orc or Forsaken, for instance, but it shouldn't be what we want to play as, but who. Personality's more important to me, though it might differ for a bunch of IC snobby Elves or distrusting Orcs.
What type of person do you want to play as? What race fits that type of person best?
>>48220445
and the frostwolves?
And the rageroar?
And the dragonmaw clan?
The burning blade survivors?
Jaina X Sylvanus x Arthas
Pre-deadification... or post deadification.
Thoughts?
>>48220830
living sylvanas HOTS skin makes my dick diamonds
>>48220611
The Frostwolves currently live in Alterac.
The Dragonmaw were prominently featured in Cata and aligned themselves with Deathwing's cult. They were mostly dug into old Dwarven cities in Khaz Modan which they'd conquered in the Second War.
The Burning Blade have been scattered to the wind. They exist as a loosely organized cult (in Vanilla they were roughly analogous to the Alliance's Defias Gang). For a long time they had a hold in the underbelly of Orgrimmar, but they got pushed out by Twilight cultists in Mists of Pandaria when Garrosh went off the deep end.
I dunno about the Rageroar. I've honestly not heard of them before.
>>48220611
The Shattered Hand have become a group of mishmashed members of the Horde, and aren't used extensively enough
And you see nothing of the Bleeding Hollow, and Kilrogg's son hasn't been used at any extent.
>>48220924
the dragonmaw joined the Horde in cata
>>48221023
and then they joined Garrosh and the Iron Horde in MoP/WoD and only are only friendly in Twilight Highland because Cata takes place in the past now
>>48218199
We had two for the alliance guys at our screening.. I'm pretty sure both factions have all those people in equal measure.
>>48216131
>At least with demon hunters, they aren't as heavily tied to one particular character as the DKs to Arthas.
>Illidan: The class
>Not heavily tied to one particular character.
Yeah, Demon Hunters are even more tied to the one character, because at least W2 era Death Knights were a thing, whereas all Demon Hunters are descended from Illidan. Hell, the Demon Hunter initiation rituals is literally just copying what happened to Illidan.
What I think he meant to say though, is that the DK storyline is heavily tied to Arthas in a way DHs aren't to Illidan. The Scourge, as badass as they were, were only a problem for a part of one planet. The Legion are a problem for the entire universe, it's hard to conclusively beat them.
>>48220611
>Frostwolves
Yes
>Rageroar
Never heard of them. Certainly not one of the original main Horde clans
>Dragonmaw
Loyal to Garrosh, joined Iron Horde in WoD
>Burning Blade survivors
Isn't Mankrik the last one?
There's also Shattered Hand which acts like Horde version of SI:7, but that's about it.
>>48221062
Eh, there's probably a good handful of Dragonmaw that stayed loyal to the Horde even afte Zaela led them into Garrosh's camp. There's more than a few Blackrocks who stayed loyal to the PC Horde through the years. Although supposedly a lot of Blackrocks lumped in with Garrosh as well, but I think those were recent acquisitions who had come in since we killed Rend, not ones who had stayed loyal all through and were never part of Ren'ds "Dark Horde," like Eitrigg.
Realistically, no clan probably came out of the True Horde with clean hands. Garrosh's message touched a lot of the disaffected youth. All orcs are gonna carry that weight unless they took up arms to stop it.
>>48221721
the biggest problem with the True Horde is that they were wasted on only being the villains of a single content patch of one expansion. Such a cool faction, but they appear out of nowhere and then are immediately killed off. And you can say the Iron Horde is a continuation, but they don't have any of the cool Pandaren stuff the True Horde did
>>48221301
>Implying we're not stealing a ship and going to other worlds
>Ships of death knights getting into random brawls for shit and giggles
It'd be like a mixture of mexicans, gypsies and muslim illegal immigrants.
>>48222045
To be fair, they were built up going back to Wrath.
All throughout the Horde questlines in Wrath you're mainly acting as an agent of Saurfang as Second-in-Command of the Warsong Offensive, trying to keep that half of the war effort in one piece because Garrosh's hand-picked officers and elites are blood-thirsty glory hounds who don't much care for logistics or morale or treaties or properly supporting the Hand of Vengeance or ANYTHING other than winning HONOR on the battlefield. Things like the power struggle in Grizzly Hills between the two sisters and the ambush of the Alliance force on the far side the Wrathgate among others are indicative of the philosophy Garrosh is spreading even back then, and would eventually become the True Horde. The might-makes-right philsopophy that rejects almost all forms of morality, tinged with Orc Supremacism but really more about elevating a mythological idealistic warrior culture personified by the white-washed Grom Hellscream of legend. It just so happens Orcs fit most easily but others can earn their way in by showing their merit, which is why Garrosh tends to be OK with Tauren and Goblins, who tend to be worth more than their shortcomings to his ideals.
Anyway, Cataclysm showed more than its share of shadows of the True Horde as well, a lot of the fires you put out on the front lines of the 4th War, such as in the Barrens or the Gilnean boarder, are directly traced to Garrosh's forces and orders putting other Horde forces in danger for the benefit of dedicated loyalists and those with a vested interest in intensifying the war.
Its true they only "unmask," so to speak in the Seige patch, but really the True Horde was there for years and we'd been fighting them all along.
>>48222170
true, the seeds of the True Horde were planted as soon as Garrosh was given power, but they only coalesced when Garrosh discovered Y'shaarj's heart and unleashed it. Imagine how cool a zone or two with orcish enemies augmented by mantid and other Old God minion auxiliaries would have been
>>48220611
>>48220924
>>48221400
the Rageroar are a total joke of a clan that shows up in a couple Alliance quests in Barrens until their chieftain gets bushwhacked. Yeah, they were such a nonentity that they were actually a Horde faction that lost to the Alliance in Cataclysm.
>>48222210
Well, we did get the war effort leading up Seige, helping Vol'jin secure Durotar and taking the fight to the True Horde's forces in the Barrens. On that note, seeing that under Garrosh's tenure the Barrens had become a fully settled province, with many new townships and resource extraction operations filling places that had once been only empty frontier with a few military watchposts, was cool.
That said, it would have been nice to see the True Horde forces out in the world making more use of the stuff they were hiding down in their secret bunker. But I guess that would have theoretically weakened the impact of discovering that stuff. The idea of the second half of the raid after Nazgrim was basically supposed to be Warcraft Wolfenstein, were we plumb the depths of the Secret Lab and see what the world is going to face (and inevitably lose to) if we don't stop it here and now.
>>48220830
Jaina and Sylvanus is fine with me. Arthas and Jaina.
But why sylvanus and arthas? is it a form of hate rape?
>>48222332
we do know that Arthas "tortured" Sylvanas before killing her, but I doubt it was sexual, being dead is sort of a boner killer
>tfw you return and see this thread is here.
braise sigmar.
>>48222332
>they are a guy and a gril
>they hate each other
>they are hot
>>48222332
Not that guy, but the fact that their personalities are similar plays a part imo.
Shame there's nothing worth reading with them though.
>tfw Cho'gall was criminally underused in WoD and now that he's died 4 times he probably won't come back
>>48222153
I wanted to do that so bad in BC. All those cosmos-related Netherstorm quests, the tempest keep, the ethereal, the goblin spacerocket, the questline dealing with dimensional invaders, plus the fact you literally saw planets with life on the sky. Travelling to other worlds always felt like its within an arms reach and going to happen any second now.
Then she shit brown and green of wotlk disappointed me greatly after the colorful space adventures.
>>48223709
Lots of people disliked TBC for being "too sci-fi", but I also really liked the weird cosmic adventure stuff (all the levelling gear being a mismatch of neon colours I could live without, though).
Apparently they were originally planning to let you visit other worlds (that's what those "mini dark portals" found in multiple zones were for), but cut it very early in the development.
>>48223655
He was pretty great in Cata though.
Really the Shadow Council should have been a friendly faction in WoD and be one of the Local Powers we unite with to take down the Iron Horde. Just because Gul'dan and his personal cronies were hell bent on fulfilling the Legion's designs doesn't mean EVERY member of the Council has to be evil, especially when Grom has made it his mission to cleanse all Warlocks at Garrosh's advice.
>>48223876
One zone and a little bit of Magitech is Too Much Scifi? People are dumb.
>>48221301
>The Scourge, as badass as they were, were only a problem for a part of one planet
For now.
The scourge were an Azeroth problem simply because they did not have easy access to an exit vector.
>>48223900
>People are dumb.
It's sad it took you so long to realize this.
>>48223900
It's more that it kind of broke the established setting to introduce space traveling goat not-demons.
Draenei remain, hands down, the single worst decision Blizzard made.
>>48223889
But Shadow Council are Gul'dan's personal cronies and serving the Burning Legion is their whole point. Sure, some may have ideas like using the demons for their own goals, but they are insane or stupid if they believe they are anything better than Legion's slaves.
>>48223900
If people's reactions to TBC, the zombie invasion, Vashj'ir and Pandaria are anything to go by, the average WoW player hates everything that isn't bland mush.
>>48223930
>average WoW player
No, just the loudest ones.
>>48223930
>the zombie invasion
it still hurts anon
>>48223911
They were just a tiny side effect of the necromantic power of dreadlords. I like to imagine they employed other scourges, hordes, shadow councils and other patsies in subverting and destroying a million other worlds.
>>48223930
>TBC
Garbage. Bent lore over a barrel, had uninteresting zones with uninteresting plots. It also took players out of the familiar world of Azeroth too early, with too much left unfinished on Azeroth, essentially blowing the outlands wad too early. To put something in perspective. The old gods are rising, the lich king is growing ever bolder, and there are still unknown threats in the world yet to reveal themselves.
BETTER GO TO OUTLAND TO DEAL WITH THINGS THAT AREN'T IMMEDIATE PROBLEMS!
>the zombie invasion
The reason the zombie invasion was hated was because it disrupted play. Conceptually, it was really cool, but it was really frustrating when you were trying to do shit and NOPE, ZOMBIE INVASION.
This is because WoW developed itself into being a game of habits, schedules and ritual. You have a daily checklist of things to do, and a weekly checklist of things to do. And the invasion fucked with this schedule.
>Vashj'ir
Underwater levels, without fail, are terrible.
>Pandaria
Pandraia's biggest sin was that it was a whole lot of polish for very little substance.
>>48223969
And yet, the legion did seemed concerned with getting that back under control or seeing them destroyed.
I'm not saying the scourge could have just rolled up and killed the Legion. But what I would imagine is that they are seen as an exponentially dangerous threat.
Scourge stays on Azeroth, it's fine. Scourge gets the ability to start moving to other worlds? Increasingly dangerous, as their numbers will continue to grow, and they will be able to add stranger and more diverse creatures to their roster of merciless killing machines.
>>48223900
>the broken remains of a world with fissures and brambles and encroaching demons while energy is arcing above it
>a mysterious marsh of gigantic glowing mushrooms and the sea-steampunk creations of snakemen
>an ancient forest turned into a zone-sized crypt by a huge explosion and restless ghosts escaping from their eternal resting place
>a zone where islands fly, elements form everyhwere on their own and the energy emanating from a mountain sized diamond spaceship is so strong it attracts souls and carves ley lines into the nearby fields
>a zone where ogres get drunk and dragons get rekt
>a zone that shows what would a legion world look like, sullen green furnace glow everywhere, demons fighting everything even themselves and the wreckage of a dead world with history echoing
But yeah nah, lets have an Ice Zone, Desert Zone, Jungle Zone and Forest Zone every expansion pack ever.
>>48223889
>The shadow council shouldn't be evil!
What the fuck is that?
>>48223982
I'd say Pandaria's biggest sin was that it should've been rotated 180 degrees to make more sense, but that's just me.
>>48223982
>This is because WoW developed itself into being a game of habits, schedules and ritual.
except all the habits and rituals were in Outland. The only time you had to worry about getting zombie'd if you didn't want was when you went to the auction house
>>48223982
>uninteresting zones with uninteresting plots
If fucking OUTLAND is boring to you, what the hell does that make Northrend? Any one of TBC's zones (except maybe Blade's Edge) easily beats anything that came after.
>The old gods are rising
They really weren't, C'thun was a withered shadow and the Twilight's Hammer was a fringe threat at most. The only significant threat at the time was the sillithid, and they were scattered by Saurfang and company.
>the lich king is growing ever bolder
The players had literally just taken down Naxxramas and captured Kel'thuzad's phylactery, the Scourge was on the defensive in the Eastern Kingdoms.
>BETTER GO TO OUTLAND TO DEAL WITH THINGS THAT AREN'T IMMEDIATE PROBLEMS!
This would be true, except for the part where THERE WERE DEMONS POURING OUT OF THE PORTAL.
>This is because WoW developed itself into being a game of habits, schedules and ritual. You have a daily checklist of things to do, and a weekly checklist of things to do.
Yeah, but that's like 50% of what's made the game boring.
>Underwater levels, without fail, are terrible.
Shit opinion.
>Pandraia's biggest sin was that it was a whole lot of polish for very little substance.
I'd agree with this, but that's a problem with what they've done with the game in general. As it was, Pandaria at least attempted to add some flavour back into the game with the treasures and the expanded cooking and the extra lore objects.
>>48224003
I think that was more because they don't like their "employees" running away than the Scourge was any threat to them.
See: turning Ner'zhul into Lich King for trying to get away from Legion, Mannoroth re-corrupting orcs after they decided they don't want to do anything with Legion anymore (and hidden cultists trying to subvert Thrall's Horde after Hyjal (original Ragefire Chasm), last patch of WoD, Kil'jaeden luring Kael'thas from Illidan after he failed to destroy Lich King twice...)
Kil'jaedan is a vengeful cunt
>>48223920
B-but blue space-waifus!
>>48223982
>Underwater levels, without fail, are terrible.
Sadly true. Vash'ir is one of the most beutiful zones in the game, and I do love underwater stuff, but damn if it wasn't a pain in the ass to play in, especially as a pet class (pet pathfinding and underwater movement don't mix very well).
>>48223920
This is shitposting.
>>48224106
It was pretty annoying if you were levelling a character, and couldn't turn in any quests because all the questgivers were getting repeatedly ganked by zombies as soon as they respawned.
Really, making questgivers (and auctionhosue NCPs as well, although that wouldn't really be a problem these days when you also have AH in other places than faction capitals, so even if the Stormwind AH NPCs got zombie-ganked you could just use the ones and Shattrath) immune to zombie-gank would've fixed pretty much all the complaints.
>>48223920
>Draenei remain, hands down, the single worst decision Blizzard made.
No, pic related is. Draenei at least gave us very fappable blue goat waifus.
>>48224317
>waaah I cant mindlessly grind and spam the AH for a week and I'm forced to participate in a world event waaaaaah
These people killed MMOs as a genre.
>>48224398
Nice strawman green text.
>Arthas/Kel'thuzad/Anub'arak
TFW Sylvanas missed out on one of the greatest bromances in all of Warcraft.
>>48224767
>tfw it gets more and more implied that Anub'arak doesn't actually like Arthas and is forced to help him by Ner'zhul
>>48225378
Its not implied, it was stated outright several times that he hates him and only serves because he is forced to.
>>48225378
Wasn't that pretty obvious from the get go. One of the first conversations he has with Arthas ends with him saying "'agreed' implies I had a choice".
On the other hand, I like to believe that KT actually gained the same level of freedom as Sylvanas and the Forsaken when the Lich King's power weakened, but chose to keep serving him out of his own free will.
>>48225416
Kelly always served the lich king willingly even before he became a lich.
>>48225465
except when he saw people getting scourged for the first time, but getting threatened with death by shade warmed him up to the idea of being a right hand
>>48225416
I don't know much about novels/WoW, but I know in Warcraft 3 it feels a lot like the whole Lich King thing is KT's grand scheme, and like he does actually want to see Arthas succeed as a terrifying undead king.
>>48224329
you don't know what's happening to illidan now are you?
>>48226058
Oh god don't tell me it's actually true.
>>48226058
Getting ass raped by Maiev?
>>48226058
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/8/87/Kindred.unknown04.ogg/revision/latest?cb=20151001020535
This is capeshit tier resurrection and assrape. I want dead characters STAY DEAD.
>>48226167
Is that supposed to be Illidan? Doesn't sound like him.
If there is one thing I dislike about the direction that warcraft has taken in recent years it's the shifting of the big bad
In wc3 it was clear that the legion and Sargeras were the big bads, but it kinda feels as if from the end stages of vanilla onward the "old gods vs titans" plotline has been slowly wedged into that, to the point where Sargeras is now almost sympathetic
Now I'm not saying this is entirely terrible, I kinda like the whole titan thing (especially as an explanation for the humans, gnomes and dwarves who originally had very little in the way of creation myths), but it makes my inner autist cringe when they introduce things into important places like "what we're fighting against" as clumsily as they have
>>48226399
Except titans were slowly built up ingame through hidden vaults, ancient messages, their creations and the like. Same with Old Gods and silithid. Then suddenly we get a book with "void lord" and they are the biggest baddest evulz on the block
>>48226399
I would say the Old Gods taking over as the BBEG really started in Wrath. Sure, you fight an Old God in vanilla, but there really wasn't enough lore about them to make them really qualify as BBEG. All we knew that they were nasty eldritch things that got beaten by the Titans and would probably fuck shit up if they got free. Powerful and dangerous, yes, but mostly a footnote in the lore.
Plus TBC had the Legion as the BBEG, even if we mostly fought againt Illidan.
Wrath had an Old God as a prominent raid boss again (though not as the final raid), and revealed a lot more lore about them, making their nature and the threat they pose more obvious. Cataclysm revolves heavily around them, with the Twilight's Hammer and Deathwing being the main villains, and the chronicle book pretty much retcons them (or rather the newly-introduced Void Gods, which are pretty much "Old Gods ++") into the BBEG of the Warcraft universe, with the Legion being formed to fight them (because the only way to stop the Void Lords from breaking into reality and wiping out all life is...to set reality aflame and wipe out all life? I don't think Sargeras thought this through).
>>48226521
Exactly my point, if much more concise (i'm very tired at the moment)
>>48226206
Its called a joke, anon.
>>48226551
Basically Sargeras wants to destroy the universe, and remake it in a manner that would make it immune to the influence of the void lords .
>>48226551
I think sargeras is more focused on "scour everything that isn't a titan so that the old gods/void lords can't corrupt the new titans"
It makes sense, given what we have seen, if a bit too drastic. There are impurities and on one side sargeras just wanted a clean slate, while the titans wanted to give the corrupted biologicals a chance.
The big bads don't want to wipe out life, but make it evil, while sargeras would rather see it burn to ash than risk a single titan getting tentacle raped
>>48226521
It's also confusing in that "Void lords" are already a thing. They're those armored voidwalkers. Warlocks can get one as a pet if they take the talent that upgrades their demons into more powerful ones (void lord replaces the standard voidwalker pet). There's plenty of them in Outland and in some areas of Draenor, too. They don't really strike me much as BBEG material, really.
>>48226715
Void Lords are irrelevant, it's the Dark Titan they are trying to make that is the threat.
>>48226715
Actually thise guys are "aspects" or "shards" of the real voidlords
In the first zone of BC where you see the rifts the voidlords are what is on the other side of those rifts, massive entities made of nothingness that swallow and corrupt everything, kinda like the armored warlock pets but as big as a whole universe and powerful enough that even a 0.000001% of their power was strong enough to suck the ethereals' planet and their physical forms out of existance with such violence that they became the blobs of formless energy we see today
Which reminds me, I would really like an ethereal PC race
>>48226138
>>48226154
>>48226167
Some naaru kidnaps you and tells you how evil you were for killing illidan who was conveniently just about to kill the Burning legion.
>>48226653
so sargeras is Surt
that's fucking cool, why aren't we helping?
>>48227009
because 1. we don't know, and 2. It still involves killing us, even if it's a good idea
>>48227062
the legion seems open for recruitment usually
I'm on the fel side desu
>>48224164
>If fucking OUTLAND is boring to you, what the hell does that make Northrend? Any one of TBC's zones (except maybe Blade's Edge) easily beats anything that came after.
Outland was boring because it was a whole lot of flash for no fucking substance. It looked nice. The broken world/alien world thing was kind of neat to look at. But the stories, the quests, and everything else were dull as fucking dishwater.
>>48227124
Did you not play WC2 OR Frozen Throne?
Outland was full of lore pertaining both, the missions were fluffy and interesting
Plus the added lore on the draenei, the ethereals, the legion, even Thrall-Jesus
BC was kicass
Wrath was kickass too, people don't appreciate it enough. Pandaria was pretty okay too
The only really bad expansions were:
cataclysm, because it was tiny, forgettable and had too much lore to fit in 5 levels
And WoD because it was just an orc circlejerk with loltimetravel
Fucking hate orcs
>>48227299
I rather liked being able to fight hordes of orcs without contrived reason to make Horde and Alliance fight and also team up against a bigger bad at the same time. Time travel was a pretty damn stupid plot device, though.
I'd say Wrath was probably the highpoint of the game design-wise. Continued the streamlining of things TBC had started (let's face it, a lot of things in vanilla were clunky as fuck), had good lore (a few brainfarts nonwithstanding), and probably the best raid in the game (Ulduar). I still slightly prefer TBC on a personal level, though.
Cata is by far the worst expansion. It got dull very quickly, and wrecked the old world, making the chronology of levelling a charcter a mess (before Cata, as you level a character you pass through the expansions in a chronological order: vanilla takes place before TBC, which takes place before Wrath. But after Cata, you go from Cata content "back in time" to TBC and Wrath, and then back to Cata; currently if you play Horde the position of warchief keeps flipflopping between 3 different people as you level!), and really started the forced pvp plot and assholeification of Horde/screwing over Alliance (and Sylvanas going full Scourge with no repecussions because she's one of the writers' waifu) thing we've seen since then.
>>48227560
>currently if you play Horde the position of warchief keeps flipflopping between 3 different people as you level!)
if you play a troll your warchief goes Garrosh -> Vol'jin -> Garrosh -> Thrall -> Garrosh ->Vol'jin
Cataclysm was a mistake
>>48227560
>if you play Horde the position of warchief keeps flipflopping between 3 different people as you level!)
This one of my biggest gripes with the horde story after cataclysm, that pandaria and WoD kinda made worse
You start out with garrosh as warchief, then thrall in outland and northrend, then garrosh again, then Vol'jin (only horde leader worth a damn after old bloodhoof died) and now thrall again? It's confusing as fuck
The alliance had pretty much the opposite effect, at least until legion. Apparently Anduin is gonna be the king again
One thing I do like is that we slowly moved from medieval times to a kind of industrial revolution, with the game aesthetics and even the fashion showing it. Andy's new outfit looks kinda victorian, even.
>>48227560
>Continued the streamlining of things TBC had started (let's face it, a lot of things in vanilla were clunky as fuck)
I honestly disagree, Wrath was where WoW started to go downhill mechanically. Dungeon Finder especially was the beginning of the end, turning the game from a world to a lobby.
>>48227560
I wish they'd stop replacing the warchief. It's starting to get really confusing, especially if you'd start playing from level 1 with no prior knowledge of the lore. Come Legion, you warchief, will be:
>level 1 - 60: Sylvanas (the guy sitting in a city with "Warchief of the Horde" under their name) or Garrosh (who most of the quests refer as warchief, and who shows up in many questlines as the warchief)
>level 60 - 80: Thrall (and Garrosh is now first a mopey emo and then the leader of Horde offenseive in Northrend).
>level 80 - 90: Garrosh again, except near the end he goes full nazi and gets replaced by a troll.
>level 90 - 100: Vol'jin. He doesn't really do much, though.
>level 100 -110: Voljin dies, Sylvanas is the new warchief (but, wait, hasn't she been sitting around with the title above her name since level 1...?).
Seriously, that's the 4th warchief in as many expansions. Things don't look very promising for the career prospects of Sylvanas, as so far all but one of her predecessors have been dead before the end of their second expansion as warchief (and the one who didn't donned a white bathrobe, got married, and became Orc-Jesus).
>>48227727
Some people want a more single-player experience
I, for one, miss the days when I could just craft my own endgame gear instead of being forced to fit into somebody's raid schedule
I already have a job, I just want to play videogames
>>48227796
Slymac is the new warchief?
Might switch factions, I would follow dat ass
>>48227797
Are you a literal moron? What are you even doing playing an MMO wanting a singleplayer experience.
>>48227797
See, I was a casual as fuck player back in TBC, but that didn't bother me because heroics and raids were like 5% of viable content, because back then leveling WAS content. I bought the game the day TBC launched, rolled a bunch of alts and faffed about and didn't hit 70 until like a week before Wrath, but I still had an absolute blast. I explored, read lore, roleplayed, made up silly personal challenges and talked nonsense with guildies.
I didn't give a ha'penny jizz about the quality of my gear or my guild's raid progression, because the world was big wild and challenging and I was making my own fun.
>>48227796
Eh, Vol'jin isn't dead. He'll come back at the xpac and Sylvanas will retire to show her, er, humility and her character progression from respectable to twat to reformed twat
>>48228173
you go to his funeral and everything.
>>48228831
YOu do?
W-where the source at
>>48228857
>>48228831
Its some quest. but hes wearing a funeral mask, so he'll be back.
>>48227796
Sylvanas was never warchief in vanilla. It was always Thrall until Cataclysm.
This whole warchief switching just reeks of tryharding at upping the stakes. Its like a bad GM who thinks every storyline must be bigger and more epic than the previous one and the BBEG needs to be more powerful and evil every time.
>>48229559
They just realized Vol'jin was a lame warchief.
Now they have time to set up a new Orc Warchief and have Sylvanas get raided.
>tfw Drakuru doesn't come back to join the DKWP
>>48229962
The fewer Trolls the better.
>>48230086
go back to Outland, Danath
>>48230121
It's okay, based Thoras will keep the DKWP free of Trolls.
does anyone else think they're setting up sylvanas as a bad guy just to do a bait and switch
I find it so hard to believe blizzard is stupid enough to do garrosh 2.0 with siege of undercity
am I wrong for giving them any benefit of the doubt
>>48231009
I don't get that feel at all. It seems more to me that they're going to try and redeem Sylvanas somehow in Legion. The nod she gives Varian in the cinematic makes me think that.
>>48231088
That's the "kill you later" nod
>>48231009
Sylvanas is a clusterfuck of bad AND conflicting writing and the only reason she is still around is the waifufags.
>>48231009
I hope we just kill the bitch off in a quest.
>>48231088
>they're going to try and redeem Sylvanas somehow in Legion.
By having her be friends with the villain from the little mermaid?
I don't think so.
>>48228831
He's literally come back from the dead once before. Troll regen and shadow hunter magic is a pretty potent combination.
>>48231239
Trolls are historically really durable. Always liked that about them. Unless you bring fire.
I want Zul'jin back. And Forest trolls on the Horde. And Blood Elves to GTFO the Horde. That lady one is the worst thing to happen to Warcraft that's not the walking retcon of space goats.
>>48231952
> lady
Last*
Dang phone
>>48229472
The point was, that if you didn't play in Vanilla and start playing from level one now, the quests from 1 to 60 are from Cata, where Garrosh is warchief, but the guy in Orgrimmar with "warchief" over his head is Vol'jin (Sylvanas in Legion, although she won't be in Orgrimmar). Then when you progress to TBC/Wrath content, Thrall is warchief, then Garrosh again, then Vol'jin again, then Sylvanas (who will now also retroactively be the NPC with warchief title even at level 1).
>>48228011
I also didn't raid much in TBC. Or vanilla. Did just some 20-mans, and occasional MC or Onyxia runs together with another guild, and in TBC Karazahn and right at the end some Serpentshrine. Still had lots of fun, and it didn't feel like you had to do the highest level content.
It helped that dunegons (especially heroics in TBC) were still challenging, and they didn't nerf all the old content when new stuff came out, so instead of everybody doing the newest raid (or few runs in the one before that to gear up for the newest raid) you had some people running, say, Molten Core while others were doing BWL and a few really dedicated people were doing AQ40 or Naxxramas.
>>48231952
Personally, I'd have preferred more than two factions and none of this pointless faction war bullshit. Vanilla should've had:
>Alliance
>Horde
>Night Elves
>Undead
With PCs are free agents that weren't forced to go along with their faction's war boner every expansion.
Because the setting was more complicated than that. Hell, with the reputation system, the potential for non-binary faction adherence was already there.
But no, red vs blue. I expect that shit from Star Wars, not from the game following up WC3's team up against demons.I just want a party of an orc shaman, human paladin, night elf druid and high/blood elf mage, damn it. Is that so much to ask?!
>>48232137
>Is that so much to ask?!
Yes you dumb cocksucker.
Warcraft is based on race war.
MUH PEACEFUL COOPERATION is counter intuitive to that.
>>48232268
>Dark Irons
>Grimtotem
>Scourge still around
>At least 80% of the trolls
I'm seeing plenty of race war.
>>48232268
>it's a "wars only count when they're red vs. blu" epsiode
go away Kosak
>>48232137
>tfw people ACTUALLY like this super forced two faction conflict and get serious about their dedication to an internet conflict
>>48218199
>some sperg shouted out, "FOR THE HORDE!" in a theater.
Things that didn't happen.
>>48232137
Are you me? The huge emphasis on factions always bugged me. I remember complaining and saying (then and now) that the Forsaken and Night Elves should have been unaffiliated.
In alpha, you could have had your dream. Horde and Alliance could group.
But whatever. At least when I run my Warcraft tabletop game, I can have the setting make more sense.
>>48232293
>>48232311
>Let's just forget the setting defining alliance versus horde conflict and kill some recolored npc races!
Warcraft is not for you.
>>48232316
Yeah, what's wrong with wanting more nuanced conflict than
>Humans are fighting orcs again
Nobody's saying they want hugs and flowers all around, just more than two options.
And hell, if Jaina can side with Thrall over her father, why can't PC adventurers tell their home factions to fuck off while dealing with more important shit, like Ragnaros, the Sillithids or whatever other continent wide threat is rearing its head this week?
>>48232367
>nobody would interrupt cinema with their obnoxious idea
>>48232418
>why can't PC adventurers tell their home factions to fuck off while dealing with more important shit, like Ragnaros, the Sillithids or whatever other continent wide threat is rearing its head this week?
That's exactly what happens in every expansion because Blizzard is not going to make separate Horde and Alliance raids.
>>48232367
Why would I make that up? I'm not trying to "shame" the Horde or whatever, I like the Horde. I just don't like morons like that.
>>48232378
Someone didn't play WC3.
The Horde took any allies they could get.
Jaina and Theramore broke off from the Alliance.
The night elves wanted both the Horde and Alliance to fuck off until they needed backup.
What's the deal with all the Draenei porn? Like why Draenei? I can understand Elves or even Worgen.
>>48232457
>Someone didn't play WC3.
I very much did.
They ended up cooperating against the Legion, but they sure didn't become butt buddies.
Humans even show up later and they and the Horde continue to race war.
>>48232452
I just want to be able to form a mixed raid group, okay? If we're both fighting the same raid bosses, why be picky about who you bring along?
Would've solved the no Horde paladins and no Alliance shaman thing in vanilla, too, so Blizzard would've have had to 'fix' it in BC.I don't share the complaint, and I don't even mind draenei, but it would've been one less thing for forum users to bitch about at least.
>>48232517
>I just want to be able to form a mixed raid group, okay?
No. Let's not change the system for your whims.
>>48232503
Lets goat fuckers claim they aren't actually into bestiality.
I kid, I kid.The real reason is that someone drew a horse cock on one and a whole lot of perverts jumped on the ship.
>>48232541
I'm talking about in an ideal world, the option would've been part of the system from the start.
And why the fuck not? If it's canon that the factions team up all the time to fight bigger threats, even when at fucking war, why the fuck not?
Hell, the Alliance and half the Horde canonically teamed up to dethrone Garrosh, yet I can't invite an orc to run Siege of Orgrimmar?
If there were not factions, this would end up like Log Horozion with the Heros making their own faction from the Alliance and Horde.
>>48226979
To be fiair Ilidan's whole thing was killing Burning Legion and I honestly don't even remember why we had to kill him but a naaru is really the one that's BTFOing us? Is Maiev around to hear this shit too?
>>48232591
>And why the fuck not?
Cross faction communication was attempted early on and failed horribly.
You're also canonically a member of the alliance or the horde and so don't fraternize with the enemy.
>>48232611
I could get behind guild warfare. Imagine the huge as fuck
>FOR THE ALLIANCE!
>FOR THE HORDE!
guilds tearing into each other in Alterac valley.
The hate on blue/red players could do their thing and the ones that would rather go kill the Firelord would have the option to ignore it.
>>48232645
He was using the Fel Horde in Outland to help fuel his war efforts. I think the main reason was because he was causing problems with Naga and farming netherwing. Other than that, we could have had him fight the legion who were trying to break past the Portal.
>>48232504
Kul Tiras did, who don't represent the greater Alliance.
>>48232645
>>48232694
He ordered an unprovoked attack on Shattrath, which kinda cemented him as the enemy.
>>48232706
>Kul Tiras did, who don't represent the greater Alliance.
A greater Alliance than Jaina's group.
Their opinions towards the Horde are the opinions of the humans who were not at Hyjal, that is to say most humans and certainly the humans you play as in WoW.
>>48232736
Though it turned out that Kael'Thas ordered the attack.
But to everyone else, it definitely looked like Danny gave the order.
That and the naga are off draining all the water from Outland, so that didn't endear them to anyone.
>>48232798
>Though it turned out that Kael'Thas ordered the attack.
I don't really know for sure, actually. As far as I'm aware, it was Illidan's call, and I've heard that the new Illidan book cites it as being Kael'thas' order, but in the previous Warcraft threads, anons said that it being Kael'thas has been a thing since Burning Crusade.
>>48231952
>Trolls are historically really durable. Always liked that about them. Unless you bring fire.
Unfortunately, you watch them burn his corpse this time.
I'm sorry, anon. Vol'jin's dead.
>>48232992
Burn *A* corpse, buried under so many pieces of tiki armor it could be anyone..
Still killing both faction leaders. (One of whom had only been on the throne a single expansion where he didn't get to do ANYTHING since we were dicking around in alternate dimensions) was bullshit.
All of Legion is bullshit.
>>48233313
>Judging an entire unreleased expansion by one stupid plot point.
>>48233313
I was kind of annoyed by how lor'themar and velen have been so ignored, but after seeing how vol'jin was treated for being background warchief for one expansion
I'm okay
>>48233388
There are a few more.
Like the whole island having basically at most a quarter of a zone that looks like the WC3 map. and "Lol only a tiny part of the island ever sunk" (I get that they want to fit different kinds of terrain without having the cataclysm problem of "There's no zone transitions and everything feels disconnected" that making truly separate islands would bring.
There are a few other bad choices, like bits of the shaman quest being awful, and some gameplay choices like the return of garrison tables only with more annoying features.
>>48233436
Velen is certainly not ignored, though I'd hardly call the treatment of the Exodar good writing either.
>>48233388
>>48233461
Oh, and continuing to shit on the Dragonflights, and the hackneyed horde-alliance conflict continuing and Jaina going nuts again despite the BURNING FUCKING LEGION invading thought that's an extension of the leader-killing I guess.
>>48233461
Is he not ignored? My mistake, the only time I can remember him being mentioned is at the end of the MoP questline where Varian calls for him to heal Anduin
>>48233461
WC3 had limited assets while the MMO can afford more variety. The partial sinking retcon is something that just needs to be accepted for the sake of variety.
>return of garrison tables
They're reusing assets for the interface, possibly only temporarily, but it differs a lot in actual function.
>>48233489
>Oh, and continuing to shit on the Dragonflights, and the hackneyed horde-alliance conflict continuing and Jaina going nuts again despite the BURNING FUCKING LEGION invading thought that's an extension of the leader-killing I guess.
Okay, I have to give you these. But Jaina was officially completely insane by the end of MoP, so she's just staying consistently retarded.
I'm really hoping Jaina - and Sylvanas and Genn, for that matter - get their shit sorted by the end of the expansion. Expansions tend to start with clusterfucks that mostly get sorted out by the end, so there's hope.Putting Sylvanas in charge of the Horde after the shit she did in Cata was really bloody stupid, though.
Totally with you on the forced faction conflict, but at least the heroes are as fed up with that bullshit in universe as I am out of it. Softens the blow a bit when NPCs and PCs alike are taking note of the Horde and Alliance having shit priorities.
Still, there's a lot of potential to fix shit, and the lore and stories in the expansion may be good. Hell, I know a hardcore, lore is for nerds, here to kill shit raider that got into the beta and was practically orgasming over the story in whatever the end game zone was called.
>>48233669
>possibly only temporarily
>BUT ITS ONLY A BETA
how many times we have seen fanboys telling that to themselves?
>>48233695
So you're ignoring the entire point about it being an entirely different feature with a similar interface in favor of whining. Noted.
>>48233547
I mean in legion.
Legit fucking spoilerKil'jaeden continues to be one sick son of a bitch, sending Velen's corrupted son (Who he believed dead) to raze the exodar, his stupid fucking mini felreaver robosuit somehow oneshots the Naaru at the bottom, then sets his bot to self destruct and take out the city At which point Velen finally understands the fision he had when he first held his son, a vision of cradling a dying Eredar sick with corruption at the base of a crystal city so he tries to stop us from killing the son but fails. Then he orders the Exodar's engines into final repairs because he's fucking PLATINUM MAD and wants to invade Argus.Overall it's a mix of decent writing and bullshit asspulls.
>>48233669
>>Oh, and continuing to shit on the Dragonflights, and the hackneyed horde-alliance conflict continuing and Jaina going nuts again despite the BURNING FUCKING LEGION invading thought that's an extension of the leader-killing I guess.
>Okay, I have to give you these. But Jaina was officially completely insane by the end of MoP, so she's just staying consistently retarded.
She chilled out to a simmering distrust in War Crimes and WoD, the horde being apparent cowards who ran at the broken shore would probably not have been enough for her to go full warpath (Unless she's been dreadlorded, she DID teleport out just before the Demonhunder got there...)
>>48233669
>They're reusing assets for the interface, possibly only temporarily, but it differs a lot in actual function.
No, it's still "Wait hours for stupid people to dfo adventures,m oh and you need to go out and farm shit to replace your disposable slot fillers, and you can only command a third of your class's followers at once and everything else needs to be filled out with worthless disposable grunts who die after three missions and need to be re-farmed and then re-crafted on long timers.
If anything it's WORSE than the garrison table because it gates actual GOOD content.
>>48233754
>So you're ignoring the entire point about it being an entirely different feature
Except its literally garrison 2.0 who are you trying to delude?
>>48233785
I like how they use "Oh but it's not self-sustaining! Your worthless three-pump-chump grunts can only be replaced by farming garri-- UH order resources on the real map!"
>This thread.
They could have made Garrison missions little mini games where you controlled the people you sent out.
>>48233881
I could get behind mini-RTS garrison missions. Get meta with it.
>>48233669
>Okay, I have to give you these. But Jaina was officially completely insane by the end of MoP, so she's just staying consistently retarded.
I've heard that she's shown signs of getting better as of Warcrimes.
I really hope this is true, too, because as much as I love hardass Jaina, her having a massive throbbing hateboner for the Horde is a nearly-guaranteed ticket to Raid Boss status.
And if she Goes Crazy and Must Be Killed™, I will not be happy. Especially if she gets it and Sylvanas doesn't.*
*In actuality, I don't really want Sylvanas to get Raid Boss'd either, because as much as she pisses me off, I'm tired of notable characters going that route.
>>48234045
If they didn't think it was worth putting in the MMO, they didn't think it was worth the average player knowing.
Personally, I'm sick of Blizz killing off lore characters, too. But I'd make an exception for Sylvanas, since she's a plague bombing bitch that is just as bad as the Horde leader we DID kill.
Making Jaina go from "Peace in our time!" to wanting to nuke the entire Horde into oblivion was a huge mistake.
When they had Varian dial down from his hate boner for the Horde, they did it over the course of a few expansions. Started with letting Saurfang pass in Icecrown, so it was a small hint before he eventually chilled the fuck out.
Jaina they just had her do a 180 after an out of nowhere plot twist. Felt hamfisted.
Sylvanas, meanwhile, had her pocket Dreadlord, but at least seemed to want to be a team player with the Horde in vanilla. She at least appeared to want to be different from the Scourge.
Then the RAS go turn-coat in Wrath, she claims to be shocked... Only to do the same fucking shit in Cata and going all expansionist zealot. I understand Genn wanting to kill her at the earliest opportunity. I DON'T understand literally anyone thinking putting her in charge of the Horde was a good idea.
They're plot points that aren't bad in and of themselves, but could've been handled far better.
Just an fyi there is infact a wow rog based off of 3.5pathfinder, there are two, the second rog is good, the first bad, its called something like "world of warcraft the roleplaying game" or something, super generic name but is rocks becuade it has rules for all the tiny gismo's gadgets and spells not in the typical traditional 3.5pathfinder check it out on google pdf for free
>>48234237
>Personally, I'm sick of Blizz killing off lore characters, too. But I'd make an exception for Sylvanas, since she's a plague bombing bitch that is just as bad as the Horde leader we DID kill.
>>48234237
>Sylvanas, meanwhile, had her pocket Dreadlord, but at least seemed to want to be a team player with the Horde in vanilla. She at least appeared to want to be different from the Scourge.
>Then the RAS go turn-coat in Wrath, she claims to be shocked... Only to do the same fucking shit in Cata and going all expansionist zealot. I understand Genn wanting to kill her at the earliest opportunity. I DON'T understand literally anyone thinking putting her in charge of the Horde was a good idea.
She didn't seem to want to be an expansionist, but she figured "If the Horde says expand I'm certainly not going to let Garrosh waste MY Meat-Shields on suicidal charges, just use the fucking plague" Otherwise she'd have just been content to remain the Lordaeron North-Korea, staying within her borders and promising mutual destruction to anyone that attacks while having her subjects fawn over her.
Alternatively they can just pop that crown you steal from Mugthol that freed him from the banshee in Vanilla and have it free her from Val'kyr mind control to make her not responsible for everything she did after Dave Kosak started writing her.
(Fuck Dave Kosak with a rusty shovel, almost every bad thing in and after Cataclysm is his fault.)
For anyone curious why jaina goes crazy, its the mana bomb from theramore, she gets hit with it and if you read the lore uon the bomb it makes sense why she goes crazy, she basically got an overdose of what would be radiations to a caster or magic adept person in the brain, in all rights she should be dead by now from massive brain hemorrhaging
>>48225416
I always believed this as well. However Id wager quite a few career opportunities close after you become the archlich.
That being said I wonder what Kelly's thoughts are now that Arthas is gone. I can't imagine he would really be enthusiastic with the scourge in its current state. I kind of want him to hook up with Jaina and she whatever shes up to in Legion.
>>48234300
>Alternatively they can just pop that crown you steal from Mugthol that freed him from the banshee in Vanilla and have it free her from Val'kyr mind control to make her not responsible for everything she did after Dave Kosak started writing her.
How sad is it that I'd actually settle for that cop-out?
But only if the val'kyr are still loyal to Arthas/Ner'zhul Lich King, since Bolvar wouldn't stand for that shit and the val'kyr doing it 'just because' would make zero sense.
But she'd also have to actually make reparations and do the apology conga for a long time after it. Not just rebooting to vanilla Sylvanas, but actually feel bad for turning into a mini-Lich King and SHOW IT.
I'm also sick of characters going crazy, then dropping off the radar until they become dungeon / raid bosses, except in side material.
No one should have to buy a book to know what's going on in an MMO. They should buy the book because they want more details of why something happens, not why it happens at all.
>>48234307
Nah she's a dreadlord, we all know it, they just won't use it because that would be good writing.
>>48234400
>>Alternatively they can just pop that crown you steal from Mugthol that freed him from the banshee in Vanilla and have it free her from Val'kyr mind control to make her not responsible for everything she did after Dave Kosak started writing her.
>How sad is it that I'd actually settle for that cop-out?
>But only if the val'kyr are still loyal to Arthas/Ner'zhul Lich King, since Bolvar wouldn't stand for that shit and the val'kyr doing it 'just because' would make zero sense.
They could be trying to carve out a kindom of their own. Not exactly loyal to anyone but wanting guaranteed protection.
>>48234237
>If they didn't think it was worth putting in the MMO, they didn't think it was worth the average player knowing.
Well, it was probably put into the book because Jaina had no involvement in WoD, so there was no chance at seeing any character development from her. That, and books allow for a closer look at characters than in the game.
>Making Jaina go from "Peace in our time!" to wanting to nuke the entire Horde into oblivion
was a huge mistake.
>Jaina they just had her do a 180 after an out of nowhere plot twist. Felt hamfisted.
I disagree. I liked Jaina when she was campaigning for peace, but the fact that literally no one was listening to her made it get really old as time went on, and ended up making her sound more whiny than anything. Is it her fault as a character? No, it's writers constantly making contrived reasons for fighting, but she ended up as sort of a negative bystander as a result.
Zealot Jaina was pretty fun and, I feel, a logical result of dealing with bullheaded idiots for so long.
I agree with you on Sylvanas, but personally, I'd be fine with the writers just dialing her back and giving her development on being less of a massive hypocrite with no consequences. If she somehow learns a lesson on how being a rampant bitch is bad and actually learns from it, I'd be okay. If nothing else because, like I said, I'm tired of significant characters dying as the writing teams' saving through.
>>48234379
I imagine him going back to all the different cult of the damned hideouts to see we've killed them all, burnt down Stratholme, and pally's are everywhere in the plagued lands to be super bummed.
The figuring he has nothing else to do tries to go back to the Scholomance to teach a new generation of casters the dark arts to find it is cleared out too with all the loot piled in a corner and burnt because scholomance gear was always shit.
>>48234481
Sums it up. So many horde kiddies get butt blasted that Jaina is so angry now and think she needs to be killed because she's seen all her efforts at peace get royally buttfucked in front of her.
And then Sylvanas is a colossal cunt from the start but she's everyone's cold, dead waifu.
>>48234510
Thats so sad! I just want KT to be happy, his voice is too sexy
>>48224767
Wait a minute. How in hell are his pants staying up? I see no suspenders of any kind and the belt that he has on doesn't really seem to be doing much of anything unless it's some sort of anti-gravity belt.
Either that's some damn good starch, or something's up.
>>48234856
The shirt is probably wrapped over a belt.
>>48234510
>kel thuzad will never join the knights of the ebon blade and bolvar
>>48234585
>>48234496
>Her efforts at peace
>Turn Theramore into the beachhead for the Alliance warmachine
>Get surprised when it gets attacked.
I mean sure, SAY you want peace all you want, but don't sit in a military fortress while doing it.
>>48235274
Turned it into a beachead to open a second front in a war that's already been started, in order to apply pressure and restart negotiations.
>>48235331
>Restart negotiations
No such thing ever happened.
>>48235360
Tried, failed. Better than not trying at all.
>>48235274
To be fair, Kalimdor is a pretty hostile place, even without historical tensions.
>>48235274
>Literally gets to watch everyone she gives a shit about die to the hands of the same people shes trying to make peace with.
>Anons still acting shocked and surprised when she drops the kid gloves after the horde slaughters an entire city.
>>48215453
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oaqqtXQG-fT-C5_yajhLbUabdpN5XPn7hmV-MXAGz78/edit?pref=2&pli=1#heading=h.wgik8xtf9hfy
>>48236834
>but she should have stayed neutral and remained part of the alliance :( #hordedidnowrong.
>>48238084
The bombing of Theramore was, if nothing else, a total violation of the virtues Garrosh supposedly held in so high regard. He could lok'tar his ogar all he wanted, but in the end was repeatedly shown as someone who was perfectly willing to use underhanded tactics when being honorable was an inconvenience.
>>48234252
3.5 D&D, not Pathfinder. One is Warcraft RPG (basically just setting stuff, with great supplements full of lore (that was later declared non-canon, despite containing useful stuff like demographic information... in fact, it's lore is IMO better than what we've got in WoW), the other is World of Warcraft RPG (which goes further, it's still 3.5 D&D, but is playable on its own, the book contains all the necessary rules. It also renames some stuff (dexterity>agility, magic missile>arcane missiles). The later contains city maps from the game and is much more meh overall)
>>48234237
Sylvanas was also the reason for Alliance/Horde War from WotLk onward... or, what Varian saw in the Battle for Undercity was. Even if RAS was behind it, she was at least OK with it, if it wasn't done on her orders. Varian was ready to keep truce with Thrall, but Undercity was the last straw.
Would the war happened anyway? Yes, with Garrosh named Warchief after Arthas' dead, it would be inevitable... but it could be delayed, and perhaps if the peace would hold, Garrosh wouldn't be Warchief in the first place.
As for Jaina...
Before Theramore, Jaina even supported Baine Bloodhoof when Grimtotems took over Thunder Bluff after Cairne's death... while Alliance and Horde were at war with each other.
>>48233769
And Blizzard still won't update the fucking draenei starting zone
>>48239167
its linked to the tbc servers.
>tfw Blizzard desperately wanting to forget Warlords exists means the only call back we'll get is AU Gul'dan leading the Legion in vasion
>tfw they won't use Afrasiabi's Twitter retardation to add fel arakkoa and Sargerei to the Legion's forces
>>48239291
>fel arakkoa
>green birds with horns
no
>>48239291
Sargerei are just Eredar and we'll have plenty of those in Legion.
>>48235274
>military fortress
>not a city
She certainly expected a fight, but a conventional one. Not one that ends with EVERYONE in Theramore dead except her.
>>48240069
Eh, not everyone. AFAIK civillians who wanted to evacuated the city because it'd coem under siege
What they got was different, but was still a siege.
did I miss some sort of justification for how Garrosh could be so utterly against fel corruption for power (for good reason of course, seeing what happened to the horde) but didn't mind sha corruption to empower himself?
Was it stupid old god mind warping shit? Was he just insanely hypocritical?
>>48240152
Little of column A, little of column B, I think.
>>48240152
they couldn't think of a better reason to make him Hitler
>>48240152
>Justification.
It seems that the original plan for Garrosh was him to slowly become a powerful and great leader. In Stonetalon he executed an orc general for going overkill on the forces there, Thrall was always teaching him and Saurfang was by his side. What screwed all this up was the backlash of "Waaah it's not Thrall".
So they ham-fistedly changed from that idea into making him lolcorrupt like everything else.
>>48240152
Garrosh figured that since evil elementals hung out with the old gods and he had started using dark shamans to use evil elementals like molten giants, he could handle it.
>>48238148
Garrosh did nothing wrong.
Punished Jaina did nothing wrong.
Thrall and Wrynn were wrong because Warcraft needs some total war.
>>48240346
>It seems that the original plan for Garrosh was him to slowly become a powerful and great leader. In Stonetalon he executed an orc general for going overkill on the forces there, Thrall was always teaching him and Saurfang was by his side. What screwed all this up was the backlash of "Waaah it's not Thrall".
Eh, not really. I mean they set him up as a villain through having Vol'jin dislike him
I would've liked Garrosh though.
>>48240358
>Thrall and Wrynn were wrong because Warcraft needs some total war.
I wish they'd at least pick a side. Either give us full "gas the Horde, 4th War now" or stop having us fight over fucking nothing while the BBEG of the year waits for us to sort our shit out and come kill him. Garrosh was a good step towards the former, but then they fucked it up by turning him into Hitler and making him a raid boss instead of actually widening the faction gap
>>48240346
Except Garrosh frequently ignored Saurfang's advice all throughout Wrath, so it's not like Garrosh was set up as terribly competent to start with.
Are there any other systems to run a Warcraft setting in other than Warcraft/WoW RPG?
Like some decently done homebrew shit?
>>48240511
guy linked this >>48237677
looks pretty comprehensive for 5e, I didn't read through it though
>>48217344
Man, I've never RPed on WoW. I've played a ton of tabletop RPGs, I love roleplaying, but I get super nervous when it comes to RP on WoW for some reason.
>>48240420
Thing is, Blizz can't do that, because they would have to let one side win to get a coherent story out of it... and what then? Player outrage if their side gets defeated, and it's not like they can remove either faction from the game.
I've seen it done on private RP server, and it worked, because all players there (about 50 of them) were roleplayers and knew the premise of the story, but... no way that would work for millions of players with different tastes.
MMOs puts constrains on possibly storylines single player games just don't have.
>>48240511
I run Warcraft 1v1 game in 5e, though with minimum mechanical changes, I just refluff whatever I can because I'm too lazy to do any work I don't strictly need to.
>>48240424
In Wrath he's a hothead with zero grasp of military strategy ("Logistics, that's that? Can I smash the enemy in the face with it? Ttue orcs only need an axe and HONOR!"), but he seems to learn over time. In Cata he executes that one orc warlord who blows up a town, saying that he won't stoop to murdering civilians and that Saurfang taught him to never forsake his honor...Only for him to blow up a town and murder civilians himself in the next expansion...
>>48240358
>Garrosh did nothing wrong.
>Punished Jaina did nothing wrong.
>Thrall and Wrynn were wrong because Warcraft needs some total war
No, it needs total war with the actual badguys.
All this faction conflict is a fucking distraction and I wish Dave Kosak and all his PvP pals would jump in front of a moving bus.
>>48233436
Yeah, after Throne of the Thunder King I was hoping we'd get more Lor'themar being a badass, but I guess he'll be stuck arguing with the other belves forever.
>>48240083
>Eh, not everyone. AFAIK civillians who wanted to evacuated the city because it'd coem under siege
>What they got was different, but was still a siege.
And the civilians who ran were either intercepted or bought off of slave dealers to be used as punching bags by Garrosh's troops.
>>48234497
I love how tongue in cheek blizzard is sometimes.
>>48242109
>And the civilians who ran were either intercepted or bought off of slave dealers to be used as punching bags by Garrosh's troops.
Source.
>>48242220
SoO has several theramore citizens being tortured, some are even forced to attack the raid because their children are being held deeper into the city (And entirely offscreen because T rating and all that jazz.)
>>48242220
they are hanging on spikes in SoO or are being forced to attack you because the orcs will kill their children.
>>48242284
>>48242285
So conjecture
>>48242399
There are only so many ways they could have ended up there.
Or maybe they were civilians stuck out in the swamp who didn't make it back to the city in time to evacuate, that's also possible I suppose.
>>48241263
I don't think its necessarily inconsistent for Garrosh to disapprove of one of his generals wiping out a giant school for apprentice druids with no strategic value and posing no threat to his forces and dropping a nuke on the single largest military port and primary supply artery for the entire Alliance war effort on Kalimdor.
I mean, don't get me wrong, it was still a horrific war crime and Garrosh was a monster to do it, but I have no doubt he justified it to himself easily. Hell, he even learned Saurfang's lesson about logistics!
Garrosh's view of exactly what honor is is a pretty murky one based on what we see in the games. I've been told if you read the novels you get a much better picture of his motives, but I don't give credit for homework in storytelling.
That being said, I think the picture we do get from Wrath to SoO is that he learned what Saurfang was trying to teach him, that blood and bodies isn't what honor is. Unfortunately, I think we're meant to see that in disregarding that vision of honor, he also discarded the idea that blood and bodies can also mean DIShonor. I think the lesson he ultimately took from everything is that the only real honor to be had comes from victories, not any victories but victories with meaning, victories that ensured that the Orc's would grow stronger and get what they needed to thrive. He wants all his enemies to die and their cities to burn and all that FIRES OF MY HATRED stuff, but that's just the means, just like warping the elements so Thrall couldn't stop him and using evil Mogu tech and Old God magic and accepting Goblins into his Horde despite finding them largely contemptible were all means. I think we're supposed to understand that to Garrosh, honor is in victory which enriches his people. Not meaningless victory, not pointless bloodshed, but concrete progress. The issue is that it seems like the only way one can be dishonorable in the True Horde is to waste bombs.
>>48243612
Consorting with the weakling races of Azeroth was also dishonorable.
>>48242183
They like to pretend they're serious, but deep down, they're the same lovable dorks that put a panda face on Illidan's glaives just to see if anyone would notice.
>>48242399
confirmed by blizzard.
>>48243750
they did that because their first icon looked like a swastika even though it had 8 arms.
>>48242285
>they are hanging on spikes in SoO
the end of mythic Garrosh where you fight him in Stormwind harbor in front of the impaled corpses of all the faction leaders + Thrall and Taran Zhu is so cool
>>48246027
kek. it sounds like a r9k fantasy.
>>48247277
Nah it's pretty fun
>>48247530
/r9k/ is pretty fun too sometimes.not really.
>>48247277
Yes, Garrosh is pretty r9k,.
>>48247667
which makes all his porn even more hot.
>illidan could have tapped that
>he didn't
>>48247277
>all the Chads that oppose me will burn in the fires of my hatred!
>the normies will be impaled upon the spires of Orgrimmar
Just found out about body tattoos in Legion and I'm kinda hyped about that.
Lei Shen did nothing wrong. If we didn't kill him then Garrosh couldn't have corrupted the Vale
>Cataclysm
>Vol'jin refuses to join the Zandalari because "da Horde is my people"
>MoP
>Vol'jin betrays the Horde because Garrosh is mean to him
trust a Darkspear, live in fear
