pretty simple to explain, our group has been playing anima beyond fantasy for well over a year now and were sick of it, maybe we just need a break, maybe were done, i dunno.
we gave 5e a shot cause we wanted something more simple, we all agree its too simple, actually combat is great just the classes suck, your class gets like 5 abilities and two people of the same class are nearly identical.
we decided we to look around, I'm one of two of our group that browses /tg/ and ill check here first.
SO, does anyone know of any good point buy systems to run a fantasy roleplaying game in that ISNT gurps (its a meme at this point)
Does such a thing exist or will we have to suck it up and deal with 5e?
I'll always recommend mutants and masterminds, you just need to get players out of the DND mindset.
>>48189478
Did you even read what OP wrote?
>>48189462
The Dark Eye. Only other point buy system I can think of.
Unless you count SRS games as point buy, but the fantasy ones aren't exactly good.
>>48189462
By the way, does it have to be point buy or is a class based system with some variety okay, too?
>>48189517
i just assumed point buy was the only way to have your character down to what you wanted, but if you recommend it i will surely look into it.
please recommend anything you think would be useful
our gaming knowledge is limited to 5e, anima, and paranoia
Gasping Asshole
Bet you saw a new post and thought "oh boy maybe it's a new system" but nope it's just one of your players shitposting
>>48189538
Not really. Point buy systems also put limits on the player in addition to any limits inherent in the system itself.
Class-based systems are merely more like a puzzle or Lego. And once you've got the general shape of what you want, you can still add a few details via Rule Zero if you really need to.
And not all class-based systems are as awful as 5e. Legend (Rule of Cool), for example, gives you classes consisting of three tracks each with a usually very fixed progression. But you can pretty freely replace your tracks with those of other classes or even add a fourth track. Add an in-depth weapon customization system and meaningful feats and you've got some pretty detailed character creation.
The next question is: What do you want from the system.
Plenty of good ones out there, but they each do something different.
>>48189510
Yeah? It's pure point buy and it can easily do Conan esque adventure.
>>48190278
I was referring to the second part.
>>48189462
why is gurps a meme?
>>48191119
Because GURPS can be used for anything. Even memes.
>>48191119
>>48189462
I'm confused why you specified not GURPS because it seems GURPS is exactly what you are asking for.
Is it because there is something you don't like about GURPS and if so, what is it? That's kind of important because it means there is some other criteria than what you wrote for selecting a good game.
If it's just because you already know about GURPS and are considering but want to know what your other options are, then that could have been clearer.
Anyway, most systems have something like point-buy these days, as an option if not as the default so that doesn't really narrow it down.
As far as I can tell, you want something that is less complex that A:BF but offers more options than D&D 5th edition with about the same level of tactical complexity as D&D5 in combat.
WHFRP could be good, if you find it. Every member of a given class is very similar, but there are so many classes that it's rare to have to the same in a given party.
Generic systems like BRP and Savage Worlds would probably work fine. The former is a bit difficult to find a copy of.
Burning Wheel does a great job at making different characters very distinct even if they have roughly the same career path. Not sure how easy it is to find these days. Torchbearer is a more accessible game with a similar rules set, but much more restrictive in terms of class.
There are lots of good, rules-medium fantasy games without random character creation or restrictive classes. The problem is that you probably want something that is still in print and I can't recommend any recent fantasy games because I haven't bought one for a while.
D6 fantasy, Talislanta, Rolemaster, Runequest, GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, Ars Magica, Savage Worlds, and Fantasy Age.
>>48191908
>in print
Why are you making such a big deal about it being in print? That barely matters in the age of PDFs and portable devices.
Do you own a bookstore?
>>48192085
Lots of people I play with insist on, or at least prefer, hard-copy rules. Sometimes we even ban digital devices at the table, as they make it too easy to get distracted.
I might just be projecting my atypical experience onto gamers in general though. If your group doesn't mind PDFs then see my recommendations and just ignore any comments about being in print.
>>4818946
Play 5e as all spellcasters.
There's enough different classes to have different builds for everyone, you get lots of different powers, and spell choice makes the difference between two wizards.
>>48194459
Player here not Op/Gm
Issue with pathfinder and 5e is these guys have been ether
A. started with Anima or
B. Played it for so long that we like point buy over class features / Spells gained by lvl path (I fall into this one)
For example our first 5e game a lot of players wanted to do certain things such as be a necromancer or a swashbuckler pirate spell caster and yea while you can archive these goals you typically have to be higher level than what most games start out as.
So this causes the issue of hey my character didn't start with what his core concept is well only way we can do that is to homebrew you a class or start you at a really high level unless there is a third option I'm not thinking of.
Simple character concepts is what D&D thrive on like I want to be a fighter who uses magic or a Druid of Fire not a mishmash of Pirate evocation Caster who was kicked out of a ninja order and now uses his skills to rob anyone on the 7 seas with his crew of sentient octopus men.
Sure I could take Arcane Trickster but in reality the features given don't really project the idea of my characterand in the end I kind of have to settle for what I get and just fluff what I can to fit my character or home brew it which takes a lot of work and it might not even be balanced compared to what the other players pick
>>48195633
>while you can archive these goals you typically have to be higher level than what most games start out as
Isn't the same true of Anima as well?
600 PD aren't exactly a lot.
>>48195701
Depends on what you buy and don't ignore CP as those points allow for the majority of customization to an anima.
plus because the classes are a point by guide it doesn't limit you to what you can actually achieve with a character in reality sure it might cost more but you can certainly make a wizard that excels at punching a fighter in the face without sacrificing the majority of your spell-casting ability or you can make a fighter that excels at combining key techniques with his primary weapon to create really powerful effects without sacrificing offensive capabilities without such key techniques
don't get me wrong I think anima has a problem a few issues one is that it's kind of a weeb system that is borderline Edge if not full on blown Edge psychics elderly fucking useless unless completely optimized for one purpose and then their Godly broken traps are not addressed anywhere that I can see in the books which is unfortunate because if you want to make a trap based character or poison based character for that matter you're shit Outta luck.
Using phone speech to text
>>48195909
How about you use some fucking punc--
>Using phone speech to text
Oh, come on!
That aside, your post isn't exactly coherent.
It reads like you want to disagree with me, but you don't, and instead go on to rambling about everything that's wrong with Anima.
>>48196032
Ok won't use phone now that I'm not in the car.
"Anima is shit" I have said this a few times to Op and will continue to say it.
The system is bloated and edge weeb2.0 but I will say it's nice to have an idea for a character that is more creative than a spell caster who can use a sword or a thief who can magic.
I can come up with ridiculously intricate characters and using anima's system achieve the core concept at level one and along with a few extra benefits. Then at later levels add to the character's repertoire and evolve the concept as a whole rather than still attempting to achieve the initial concept.
It's a system that had potential but in the end succumbed to yellow fever and teenage angst.
So my roundabout point is no it's not the same as the extreamly limiting class base systems that can only add customization Viva Archtypes that kinda hit close to what I want but in the end fall short.
>>48195909
But you CAN make traps annon.
>>48196659
Not those kind of traps gooby
>>48189462
> two people of the same class are nearly identical
If you both chose the same archetype. Also, there are guides for customizing classes with slight alterations for character flavor or player preference, at the digression of the GM.
That's going to the case with any class-based system though; that's not a D&D thing.
Side-note, I'm assuming you saw the point-buy for attributes, right?
GURPS is also a legitimately good game so long as you and your players are capable of openly discussing what is and isn't permitted within a campaign.
>>48195633
> players want to run experienced/established adventurers
> start them at level 1
Maybe playing by the rules would fix your problem; strait up says to start at a higher if you're familiar enough with the game and want to begin as established adventurers.
All odd numbers up to, and then also including level 10 are the usual mile-markers for initial power levels.
>>48195633
> A. started with Anima or
I don't know that there's anything that can be done past that point; the damage is too great.
>>48199240
I can see why someone would have that view point but it's Not so much wanting experience to established adventures.
As we would like to have obtain the abilities we set out to obtain in our backstory rather than obtaining it after a few adventures.
Kinda strange that our characters motivation for becoming _______ class isn't achievable till we have left whoever was teaching us and adventured on our own a bit. Not to mention if we wish to acquire a ability later it hinders our progress to access other abilities.
Example
I'm a druid who wants to shape change into a bear and do Kung Fu can't I forgo the time it would have taken me to learn some abilities/proficiencies and learn Monk stuff without hindering my abilities to turn into a bear.
Maybe I'm just bing nitpicky and should settle for what the system gives rather than fault it for not giving me what I want right away.....
>>48189462
Not mentioned yet: Earthdawn. 4th ed just came out and cleared up a lot of issues. The steps table is obnoxious as fuck, but you can learn to deal with it. The setting is top notch. And yes, it's point-buy.
>>48200270
I literally can't comprehend what you don't understand.
I don't know if it's the phrasing or you messaging vai phone but, principally you want your characters to be able to do everything you want them to do from the outset and not have to make any compromises or sacrifices to begin play at the power level that you want them to ultimately end up at? Because, in case you're not aware of this, D&D, and indeed most RPGs, are structured around the concept of your characters begin play at lower power levels, and then becoming stronger as they adventure. What you're asking to do is basically take multiple advancements simultaneously, which is something only the most liberal of systems will permit; some point-buys even have a cap on how many boons you're allowed to purchase during a given advancement, or just grant you one advancement at a time to be taken periodically through out the sessions. As far as being a Kung-Fu Druid that's literally as easy as taking levels of Druid and Monk in alteration, but you can't take a level of Druid and a level of Monk simultaneously.
This may seem unrelated, and I don't mean this as a satirical or sardonic question, but I'm legitimately curious:
If you had to divide the mediums of fiction that you take in into 10% brackets, how would you divvy them up? For example, I'd probably be:
Books 20%
Cartoons/Anime 30%
Movies 20%
Video games 30%
OP here bearing the fruit of knowledge!
>>48191908
i specified not GURPS because I've already heard it a million times before whenever anyone asks "what system should i use" plus I've tried getting my players to learn gurps, they refuse.
>>48195633
Douchebag here makes a good point, one of the problems we had with D&D is even though we started at lvl 3 none of our characters were even close to what we wanted or imagined, it won't be til later levels we even get a smidgen of what we want, i just think thats a flaw with D&D that a character gets about 5 unique bonuses and the rest is just martial/thief/caster basics. and someone said just start at higher level? whats the point of that, the leveling up should be an achievement, something to strive towards to improve yourself, not something you need just to fulfill a basic concept. i could be just ruined by anima because in that you pick a concept, achieve it by level 2/3 and then just continually improve your character tremendously from that point, you just improve on what you wanted int he first place.
>>48199328
You may be right, we may be doomed, blame the weeb GM who started us on the path
>>48201785
maybe i can shed some light, in D&D being a kung fu druid early game screws you, you're bouncing classes and you don't get that level 5 bonus from druid or monk until you're level 10 if you're going down both paths, and then you're 5 levels behind the rest of these people skill wise. the barbarian has already got all those abilities and he way out classes you. most times its not worth sacrificing to get the character you want because it leaves your character too weak or unable to work, all because you wanted your druid to have flaming kicks.
and he stated that in anima you can at lvl 1 or 2 be a druid with flaming kicks, while you're not a powerhouse, you didnt have to sacrifice anything to get there, in fact you're on par with everyone else in the party. hope that helps?
>>48202051
and yeah, you may be reading this and thinking "well these guys are a lost cause, they're defending anima!" not really, just don't want something as basic and limiting as 5e, and while anima does the class thing really really well it does the everything else extremely shitty, the books are shitty, the translations are poor (oh well) and the amount of confusion is ungodly, we want something better, and its going to take some work even with your help to find what we can all accept is an improvement
the best point buy system is obviously Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Other Strangeness. plug in Transdimensional TMNT so you can have mutant humans, dinosaurs, and time magic. throw in a couple of After the Bomb supplements for weird rules about spaceships, cars, and insanely overpowered boomerangs, and you're golden.
is there a PDF thread open in the catalog right now? you can usually score every single TMNT book. it's Palladium stuff, which means you have to watch out for rampant imbalance and power gaming, rules scattered incoherently throughout manuals, and common moments you just have to break down and invent houserules for because they don't seem to exist - but it's probably the most ridiculous fun you can have outside of ODing on bucket drinks at a Full Moon party on Koh Phangan.
(i've done that too but i still might choose TMNTaOS with a good group)
>>48202051
So what you're saying is your players don't want to play Anima anymore, but they refuse to play D&D and they refuse to learn GURPS (which, quite ironically, is much more simple that Anima). It may indeed be time to hang it up.
>>48202051
A. Totemic Warrior Barbarian
B. >>48199121
>>48202149
and having written that i just realized i have a new life goal - trying to get a group of Thai hookers to play TMNT with me at a Full Moon party while we're all smashed on bucket drinks.
suddenly my life feels full of purpose again
>>48202051
Really Anima is a fucking mess, and class-based systems are just one approach to balancing out the kinds of messes that full free-build basically always becomes. It legitimately boggles my mind that you guys have played Anima and fucking Paranoia (which is great, no hate there), but have a basically non-existent understanding of class mechanics on any level; D&D or otherwise. I don't even mean that as an insult it actually confuses the hell out of me. That's so fucking backwards to have played Paranoia but not fucking D&D, or idk, even Exalted or some shit.also Druids get wildshape at level 2 and bears are CR 4; all you'd have to do is have the DM allow you to scale your widlshape forms w/ your monk levels at a reduced rate (because you are multi-classing) but there's no reason you couldn't just go 2 Druid 18 Monk as your end-build. Honestly if you began play at level 5 as Druid 2 Monk 3 Id' just ask you to give up Unarmored Movement and you'd be one level off of when I'd let you step-up your CR max one tier (6) because that's double the normal duration and even then you're already basically there; I'd let you step it up again at 14 because that's 8 + 6 and normally the CR Max goes up after 2 levels and then 4 levels, so as part of the deal I moved you up after 4 and then 8 levels, but that's going to vary from DM to DM. You're beginning play at lower levels and then complaining that you don't have end-game capacities. When your grasp of the game you're complaining about is so loose it makes it really hard to put any stock in your complaints.
![God+speed+_4a9bd63045d58f52bd3ce2d73edbcc45[1].gif](https://i.imgur.com/WdIs2d8.gif "God+speed+_4a9bd63045d58f52bd3ce2d73edbcc45[1].gif")
>>48202266
>>48195633
Again I reccomend mutants and masterminds. Its one of those systems where if you're creative enough, you can literally play anything. Hell I've made XCOM the organisation as a single charachter, I've seen someone play a wonder twins expy in game as a character. 3e is comedically flexible and in print.
>>48202411
Your solution to the wild shape druid monk is likely successful but I am not that intimate with 5E to know what mechanics to homebrew away in favor of others maybe we as a group should just ignore balance and adjust as we go.
I started with D&D3.5 did a bit of 4E then played pathfinder until those horrid mixed class things came out. I have experience in both systems types and I have to say I prefer a point buy more it's less limiting.
I have no idea how to say this any clearer than I'm about to now. I would like to be able to do what I want my character to do and not what the class allows me to do. There are somethings I would like to not do that the class forces me to do while it's not heavy handed I'm still forced into possibly having abilities that I would rather not have and would rather trade for something more useful to my character.
However I have no solution to this problem that will guarantee a balanced gameplay as the system isn't suited for the solution I can provide.
Thank you for your time and discussing this has had an effect on me I'm not ignoring or disregarding anything anyone says.
>>48202411
few things.
1. sounds like you're a huge 5e fan and are just upset that people don't like it, you can't comprehend people don't favor the system you like.
2. the druid/monk was a random example, also you can't count homebrew at all, because if i had a problem with "my health pools are always low" and someone responds "well in my group we just home-brew everyone to have 5x the health pools" thats not the system (i love home-brews, like i really do, but you can't defend a system by saying homebrew is an answer)
3. i basically already covered it, but you seem like a huge fan of the system and must play it like a lot. that you managed to come up with all of that off the top of your head and expect us (already stated to have next to no 5e experience) to understand?
> its so simple why don't you get this, its only string theory?
4. were NOT saying we want end game capacities, we don't want world ending power. we want more than "acid splash, alright I'm out of spell slots guys, you take it from here, ill be on my phone, because i don't get my pact blade until lvl 3" (yes please respond again with "just start at higher levels" that doesn't fix the issue)
what aren't you getting?
the particular problem we have with 5e is none of us seem to have very much freedom with our characters, not that we aren't powerful, were looking for freedom to play what we want, not "why can't i cast lvl 8 spells at lvl 1"
>>48202185
yes, we thought gurps would be our savior, but they couldn't sit down to give it a chance
>>48203030
also why is everyone so quick to start defending 5e rather than just help get what they want? suggest a system, be helpful, they already don't want to play 5e
>>48203054
Because D&D is the One True System™ and anyone who says otherwise must be shown the error of their ways, as mandated by the Great and Mighty Wizards of the Coast.
>>48203030
1. Not a huge fan, no. 5E is the best D&D's been in years, but I usually vote for GURPS or Legend of the Five Rings when new campaigns are up.
2. Starting at a higher level directly and acutely fixes the second example
3. see #1 (and its all stuff listed under Druid and Monk. -but again, the DMG has guidelines for tweaking classes to fit a player preferences. It's never going to be as open-ended as something like GURPS or Fate but if you're ever in a "I really like this class, but I wish it could X" situation there are rules for that.)
4. You should really try to avoid hyperboles (also starting at higher levels directly addresses and acutely fixes the second example. I know it's a random example but still)
> we thought gurps would be our savior, but they couldn't sit down to give it a chance
It sounds more and more like the usual situation where people who only play D&D don't ever give any other game a chance because it's too different from what D&D has taught them a "good game" is, just with a different game for once.
Side note, check out Legend of the Five Rings.
>>48189645
>Legend (Rule of Cool)
God, it sucks that that game's dead before it's properly finished.
I mean, it's still playable, but it really could have used a few more editing passes and a proper bestiary.
>>48207562
Well, if anyone feels like picking up the slack, they shouldn't have any problems doing so.
>>48207726
It's really not worth it. It's a good concept that was never finished, just like many other fan-made OGL fixes.
>>48192009
While Hero is a bit of a stretch for fantasy, it can work.
>>48189462
Reign / Wild Talents
Mutants and Masterminds
Battle Century G
>>48203030
1) I like 5e, but it's not my favorite system.
2) House rules are always a good fix for individual problems you have regardless of system. In D&D terms you should be using gestalt rules, because that's literally what you were asking for - you get the features of 2 classes without adding additional HP/etc. Gestalt is a popular house rule that has been around forever at this point.
3) Every system expects you (the GM) to come up with nearly everything off the top of your head, that's why you need to find a system you like and are well versed in. I like 5e because it's super easy to customize as DM, between optional rules in the DMG and the articles WotC puts out there is a to. Of resources for DMs who put in some effort to learning the system. Since you are not using a module or the started set the burden is on the GM to learn a system. If you wanted something with less investment to learn, then play a rules light game.
4) Ok... This just proves you have absolutely zero understanding of the system and expect to run a perfect custom world game with complicated player characters. You are bitching a lot when I would question if you even did anything beyond read just the rule you were looking for as a situation came up in the game. I'm starting to see why no system has worked for you as GM.
>>48189462
Fantasy Hero is an option.
>>48203030
>4. were NOT saying we want end game capacities, we don't want world ending power. we want more than "acid splash, alright I'm out of spell slots guys, you take it from here, ill be on my phone, because i don't get my pact blade until lvl 3" (yes please respond again with "just start at higher levels" that doesn't fix the issue)
Actually, it really does sound like Hero System (Fantasy Hero in this case) might be what you are looking for. However, beware the crunch...
>>48191908
>Generic systems like BRP and Savage Worlds would probably work fine. The former is a bit difficult to find a copy of.
One search on Amazon
>Burning Wheel does a great job at making different characters very distinct even if they have roughly the same career path. Not sure how easy it is to find these days.
One more search on Amazon or search on Google and click "Shopping"
So I would put both in the "very easy" category to find. That being said the big gold book is kind of expensive online through third parties (mostly because I can find only hardcovers). It's more affordable to get the softcover (or even cheaper for the pdf) from chaosium directly.
Heroquest 2 - Not really point buy per se, but that's because there are no abilities to buy, you just make them up and assign your points to them to improve them.
