So /tg/, how's your novel coming along?
>have fleshed out world/setting
>only vague ideas for characters and their arcs
>fuck I'm a worldbuild fag
Pretty good actually.
I'm a worldbuild fag, too. Turns out I can't write fantasy for shit, which sucks, as all these settings I work on will go to waste.
I can write a pretty good ghost story, though. Once wrote a story that nearly drove my girlfriend to tears, we're still together three years later. Good stuff.
>>48184900
>as all these settings I work on will go to waste.
Just spruce them up as campaign settings and put them online or something.
>>48184932
I wouldif I had a group to play with.
Honestly, horror's where my heart is. But going full autismo 9000 for a setting is just so much fun.
>>48185047
You don't need a group to plomp a setting online for others to look at.
>>48184836
I'm the opposite. I'm all about characters but these particular characters need a solid world to live in that only have a foggy idea about.
>>48184836
Novella, and there's about 2-3 chapters left before the first draft is done.
>>48185139
Story comes from characters, but characters come from a world. You don't need an autismo setting, but a solid setting makes it easier to grow characters.
Just wanna see what /tg/ thinks:
>Humans have 5 major polity, unified Not!Holy Roman Empire, Not!Asgard, Not!Camelot, Not!Weaboo/Chinese Empire, and Not!City states.
>Not!Orcs are a martial empire believing that they are the chosen master warrior race and therefore should subjugate everyone else.
>Not!Elves are divided by the Summer Court and Winter Court. Summer Court are the Not!Wood Elves and are nominal allies of Not!Camelot. Winter Court are the Not!High Elves with xenophobia and ego cranked up to 11 and the knob pulled off.
>Goblins are Not!Kobolds while Hobgoblins grow closer to 5e Dragonborn.
>Dwarves don't exist
>Dragons are parallel existence to gods.
>Gods are ascended mortals and generally restricted from interfering in mortal affairs.>True gods created this setting for their petty amusement
>>48185139
It's probably not the best way to do things but to make your setting you can build backwards from there. Just ask yourself "what kind of an environment might produce this character?"
>>48184836
It's not a novel, per se, but it's going well, in terms of worldbuilding and story and characters.
>>48185272
That's kind of what I do. The character shapes the setting, then the setting shapes the character, then the character shapes the setting, and so on.
>>48185175
Yeah true. The only trouble is I have multiple characters stories that take place over a couple years so I need to make sure everything gets from A to B properly ya know?
>>48185272
Yeah that's pretty much what I've been doing. But hell I'm not even thinking too hard about this one yet imma finish my dark comedy SoL first.
I have a setting and plot, but only one character.
Setting:
>humans are divided into not!Poland/Russia, not!Scandinavia, GenericFantasyKingdomTM, not!England, not!Israel, not!Egypt, and not!Italy, for a total of 10 human nations.
>Elves are split into three subraces, Wood Elves, High Elves, and Common Elves.
>Dwarves are not!Greece
>Orcs are not!Gamorreans
>not!UN is secretly a wizard college
Plot:
>literally the "What would happen if America was transported into Fantasyland
>>48184836
Wife's forcing me to keep writing even though I'm likely to scrap 90% of within the next few months.
>>48184836
Atm poorly due to not having enough free time among other shit going on
I have about 70 pages of world building for my hard sci fi and a few characters semi done so thats cool I spose.
I was in the same sort of thread not to long ago...
Probs won't end up being a novel probs a series of not so short stories...
>>48184836
I'm not writing a novel, I'm writing a short story.
>>48186028
Premise?
How is it going?
What are you struggling with?
Why doesn't she love me anymore?
What made you want to write?
>>48186201
>>48186201
>Premise?
Low Fantasy. The fall of an ancient Snake-man empire to mutant rats.
>How is it going?
Pretty good.
>What are you struggling with?
My story will use a lot of time skips and I'm unsure if I should spell them out by saying "X years/months later" or being more subtle about it.
>Why doesn't she love me anymore?
You were kinda a dick, fampai.
>What made you want to write?
Existential ruminations on the legacy of the consumer vs that of the creator.
>>48186290
Snakes and micemen sounds kinda like Grimm.
Why so many time skips anon?
Time skips do my head in ( my setting and story takes place over 150 years
it's a pain in the dickhole.
>>48184836
Not too great at the moment. I got three chapters in during the course of a month (writing about 3000 words a day; each chapter was equal to one day in world), then realized that I was using the wrong case, so I had to scrap it and start over.
I'm now somewhere between 30 and 45% done with re-writing the first chapter.
The problem is mostly that:
1. It's entirely in 1st person. I really like it, but it's hard to figure out how to describe things happening that you don't really think about.
2. I just don't get around to writing anymore.
If I do, then I make great headway, but then it's another three months of not getting around to it. I've fleshed out my world a bit, and have actually named the planet and one continent, even drew a map of it.
(Need to make a version in Campaign Cartographer, but I'm bad at it.)
If you guys want to read it, here's a link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/119_Ikb_WqkRiQK2tHSjAERN1OSfeMupi88qT3Z-coyw/edit
And some work on the countries:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MSN7bZwo_KmkXi9NZGf_nsLKgESHEjunVgGYY6WLvkA/edit
>>48186578
The mutant rat apocalypse build up slowly.
So at first, it's just a bad rat infestation. Then about a year later there are rats as big as small dogs. Then 6-8 months after that there are rats eating people.
The climax is about 5-10 years after the start of the story when the rats basically go all Skaven only gribblier.
>>48184836
I've got three settings I'm working on.
First one:
>Transhumanist space future setting.
>Combination of genetics, nano-machines, and mid- to high-level super-tech.
>In the past, a terrorist group didn't want humans to become immortal, because they viewed genetic tinkering as a decaying of humanity's right to be the dominant species.
>Country-wide attack caused a huge loss of life targeting people who had been tinkered with, or signed up to have themselves frozen on-death to go into the future without risking dying before it comes about.
>Have since faded into the shadows as a result of having their leadership made public, only attacking when it not just benefits them, but can't be traced back to them.
>Main character was the target of one of these attacks, nearly died, and was frozen, because he was nearly dead, and wakes up thirty-five years later only to find out that his wife had not been quite so lucky.
Second one:
>Alternate history Earth.
>Magic is, technically, a thing, but only in the form of Artifacts, or magic derived from them.
>Artifacts are items of historic significance that hold incredible power.
>Mages figure out magic and how to influence it in certain ways by studying Artifacts.
>Main character is on a historical survey team, finds a genie's lamp, uses his wishes to trade places with the genie after wishing that neither could be magically bound.
>Magic can't really grant wishes; genies are, "not real," as far as most are concerned.
Third one:
>Fantasy setting.
>Main world has basic magic, but their main thing is that they're a, "hub," world.
>They link to other worlds with a myriad of monsters and clashing physical and magical laws.
>Main character somehow falls from the sky into that world, from something like ours.
>Applies science to magic that works using basic scientific principles.
>Gets swept up into weird magical politics bullshit.
>Really just wants to go the fuck home.
>>48186639
>the second one
So, what? Like the gun Hitler used to kill himself? Can artifacts be as large as a building complex or a city? Capitals tend to be pretty historically important. I would think that the Alamo would be one if that were the case.
I would also think that the air rifle that Luis and Clark had with them would be one as well. That thing kept every Indian tribe from fucking with them the entire way to California and back.
The rifle in question: the Girandoni air rifle.
>>48185479
I also have another setting I've been working on but it's been on and off for a few years
It's all based off a series of disturbing nightmares and weird dreams I had when I was sick and delirious in hospital
It's another bunch of shortish stories
I've got three characters fleshed out and about 45 pages of world building that I've done since then. I'm thinking about starting to work on it a bit more because it's much easier to do than the hard sci fi and I've been watching FMA: brotherhood so it's kinda got me in the mood for it.. But the lack of free time is killing my spark.
>>48184836
Got about 4 or 5 chapters to finish by the end of the month. Then hand it off for editing, fix stuff and then start sending to publishers to see if anyone's interested.
If not, good ol' self publishing is there for me.
>>48186734
Yes, buildings, or even cities, can be Artifacts. People still look for Atlantis, which wasn't just a thought experiment by Plato in this world. As far as Hitler goes...
See, Hitler actually had the head of the Lance of Longinus, which, for whatever reason, was supposed to ensure the wielder's victory in combat, essentially making him unstoppable. He mounted it on a plain dogwood haft and ruled Germany from a throne in the Reichstag.
The war didn't end until he had a fight with a guy wielding Excalibur. He died as a result of the fight; the impact of the two, which basically do the same thing, destroyed the Reichstag building around them, as well as the non-Artifact haft he'd mounted the lance head on. Before he could get it back in his hand, a sniper in a building nearby just popped his head.
The Reichstag is now an Artifact-level arena that forces people to fight on even terms, and kills the loser of any official duel, even if the fight wasn't to the death.
The Girandoni would definitely count, but I don't know what it would do. So would the Alamo, a bastion of defense that can't be taken from those that hold it. But it wouldn't have gained that until after the massacre at the Alamo had happened.
>>48186849
Well, it kept the tribes off of them because it:
1. was just as powerful as a musket
2. it made almost no noise when it fired
3. had a 20 found tubular magazine
4. was the closest thing the world had come to a semi-automatic rifle at the time, not including pepperbox weapons.
5. Even though they only had one, they never let the Indians inspect their cargo, so the Indians couldn't afford to chance them having enough of these rifles to arm everyone on the expedition.
It was peace through assumed superior firepower, with the enemy being the one assuming.
>>48186974
So, it's just a powerful weapon? It probably wouldn't run out of ammunition, would fire silently, and would, somehow, make the force carrying it seem much larger and more imposing than it would otherwise. It would be a weapon of terror.
>>48187035
It was used to keep the expedition safe, so I would think that it would make the wielder, and the force they have with them, seem too dangerous to potential opponents for said potential opponents to even consider actually attacking them.
Not so much terror as awe, respect, and fear all at the same time.
They would demonstrate the rifle to every tribe that they came across, and the tribe would ask them to keep demonstrating it over and over again. They were in awe of it, as the same time, it made the expedition too dangerous of a target to the tribes' leaders for them to really consider anything but peaceful relations.
>Captcha wants rivers
How appropriate.
>>48184836
My computer is dead and trying to type anything substantial on a touchscreen makes me want to kill myself. But I've got two out of three books of plot outlined for my pulpy sword and planet story. It may end up being four. Trying to find a balance between dragging it out too long and reaching the resolution without properly conveying the arduous journey it takes in order to get there. I also hope to continue with serialized adventures after the original conflict is handled and am not sure what ideas to save for afterwards and which to use as obstacles along the way.
>>48187139
So, a weapon of awe, respect, and fear. Not a bad thing.
And now I'm thinking about the magic that a mage would find from studying it. The constant demand for use would give it infinite ammunition, obviously, which would be a good spell to figure out. The silent firing would be nice for anything not dinky and smol. The mind-affecting effect would probably be used as a riot-control measure, if I'm honest.
>>48186849
What about the first working model/first batch production of standard arms for large militaries?
(Like the first M16/AR, or the first AK, or the first M2 Browning, the MG-34/MG-42, the MP-40 and so on.)
>>48185255
pretty neat. i think it would make for a cool hook, if like the wood elves and high elves started to war, like the high elves want some city state territory and the wood elves stop, leaving the humans alone to face the orcs.
>>48187221
I'm thinking that these first productions would take on the properties of the weapons' stereotypes from when the weapon actually makes history.
Like how AKs never brake, or how M16s always do. (gen 1 M16s actually WERE shit. it wasn't until the M16A3 that they got gud.)
Or how the MG-42 was so pants-shittingly terrifying. (They were, but one could normally be trained out of this fear.)
>>48186591
good first couple pages. but if i could make a suggestion, the use of abrupt sentencing is a little jarring, i feel like i'm reading your book at a stoplight it traffic. stop. go. stop. go. Its good detail though. my biggest thing when writing is the description, i think you could of used a little bit more though.
like describe the room he woke up in, what does it smell like, what does the fresh sunlight do to his gaze, if he's an adventurer type, describe how sore he is. good stuff all around though.
>>48184836
I lost my notebook. Sure, I still have all the websites bookmarked and could recreate everything with 90% accuracy, but that different 10% would be such a source of frustration at myself I haven't bothered starting.
>>48187221
As profound as they might be, they'd probably just be minor artifacts exemplifying what the creator wanted out of the line, at best.
Decades' or centuries' old weapons wielded by historic figures would probably be the more powerful artifacts. Simo Hayha's rifle, for example, is probably a weapon that everyone's looking for. It probably makes you invisible once you've been still long enough while using it. And the Hope Diamond is probably literally cursed.
>>48187328
Thanks, and I'll work on that. I'll see about getting that added in tomorrow. As I said, I'm having some problems with describing things that you don't normally think about. This is the guys house. He doesn't really pay much attention to the smell. It's just what he's always smelt when waking up. I'm sure you know what I mean. When you're in your own house you don't really notice any smell unless something is out of place. When you're in someone else's home you notice things that they miss all the time. It's just something that's there and you never notice it.
The reason for the "stoplight" writing is because that's how he goes through lists and things. When you're walking around you tend not to actively think, right? You might, but most of the time when you do it's to the determent of your ability to not trip or run into things/people. Sure you're still thinking, but it's more just instinct as far as I can tell.
Ether way, I'll be working on it. If you could comment on the places that you see these problems, that would be helpful.
(I'm pretty SURE I made it so that random people can comment. . .)
>>48187469
In real life, his rifle was donated (by him) to a museum in Finland. I don't remember where.
>>48184836
Weird Industrial Modern-ish Fantasy with planar travel and lovecraftian elements
Would you read, /tg?
>>48187676
>Weird Industrial Modern-ish Fantasy
Fuck yes
>planar travel and lovecraftian elements
Ehhh, so long as it doesn't get edgy
>>48187712
The basic premise is that a pre-human civilization discovered planar travel, and found a bunch of splinter worlds, but weakened the boundaries between planes enough that they attracted hostile extradimensional beings that fucked everything up and caused a mass extinction on earth
If that sounds stupid, please tell me. I need all the criticism I can get.
I want to write a Scifi-Western, but every time I start to put work into it I get nothing but hot garbage. I write a few apocalyptica short stories to clear writer's block and they end up being alright. Why can I only write stories that I'm not interested in?
I've found something really interesting out about my writing style; since my entire book deliberately builds up to a few scenes, it's actually easier to write those scenes first, then fill in everything before them, sprinkling in foreshadowing as I go. Has anyone else tried this method?
Also, anyone want to read the climax of a book about airship battles that are reminiscent of the age of sail, focusing on libertarian/corporatist state vs. socialist feminist monarchy? I can always use critique
>>48187785
Fuck yeah I do!
>>48187785
It's 2am, so I might as well do something productive. Let's see it.
>>48187793
>>48187803
Here's the climax of Crowned in Lightning then.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CaGlFv7ABLgk-9BkSMu-SHCPvCrd-zC7C2nEgQdfze4/edit
Comments are enabled, so if you have a particular thing you want to point out, do it right in the doc.
This scene will later have pieces from Markha and Kothra's points of view; they're major POV characters for the whole book.
Here's wiki articles on the main character and how skyship combat works, respectively
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Arminia
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Skyship_Combat
>>48187758
Not necessarily stupid, but what is the interaction between humans and the extradimensional beings? Like, once a human sees one of these beings does their brain leak out their ears, or is it more of a super-lethal Ghostbusters system?
Also, what do you mean by modern-ish? 1920s and Tesla coils, or 1950s interdimensional XCOM?
>>48187758
So long as you can actually explain
1) how they weakened boundaries
2) why this attracted hostile extra dimensional beings
Without literally using "because magic" as an explanation, itd probably be fine in my humble/autistic/nerd opinion.
Things that seem to piss people off about stuff like that is when its hand waved in the lore explanations. Random 'fuck you for no real reason in particular' evil happened is more in line of a Hollywood thriller. Fuck the system level of magic dickery generally just feels ex-machina.
Im not sure how you'd explain how the whole weakening boundaries happened within your umiverse, but if it makes sense within the limitations of your universe, thatd be great. Same with attracting the Cthulhus, if theyre interdimensional locust beings that nom fractured worlds, that'd make a lot more sense than just "and then demons"
>>48187841
1. They look pretty fucked up, but not necessarily enough to drive people insane, although getting close enough to them will probably fry you anyway due to the immense amount of light and heat they produce.
2. I may have oversold on the "modern" part. The most advanced plane, Vatr, exists at a 1890s tech level.
>>48184836
>very detailed worldbuilding
>solid characters with defined flaws, arcs, and desires
>keep tripping over the exact sequence of events I need to cover
Fantasy Heists are a nightmare to plan from both sides.
>>48187887
Alright Anon, I can dig itJust please don't let the big reveal be that they're actually angels
>>48187964
Nope. Just two ancient races fighting a war billions of years old that see human lives as less than we see insects.
>>48188014
Although, I did use some of the more messed up biblical angels as inspiration.
>>48187853
Yeah, my one big issue with the story (besides, you know, a plot or characters) is that bit of worldbuilding. Any suggestions?
>>48188036
You could look to a more scienc-y version of Yggdrasil, being some force connecting all the dimensions together that's been eroding over time
Book is done and on amazon. Now comes the worst part:advertising it
And I suck when it comes to this.
1) Alternate Cold War setting in which Germany lost WWI earlier, went commie, defeated France in altWWII, and leads the alt European Union against pseudo fascist Austria-Italy, Japan, the US of A and their allies. The Russian civil war lasted longer and there is a White remnant in Siberia. The Communists still won in China but didn't go full retard. Britain is mostly isolationist. Nuclear weapons are monopolized by Germany, Britain and the US. It is 1990, and the action focuses on President Bush's visit to Vienna for the altG8.
2) A small low-fantasy world with less than twenty countries. Humans are the only full sentients, but trolls and dragons are pretty close to it. There is one main religion with different competing cults. NotPersia is the home of the main cult and the most powerful nation. The story is about a few priests ridding a border town from necromancers after an English civil war equivalent.
3) Another story in the same setting, concerning a group of mages studying a magical artifact found in not Babylon.
>>48184836
I can't outline worth a damn.
>Uh, this happens, then this happens, I guess?
How do you guys do it?
Well, I think my collection of micro tales, which should be first of three parts (the remaining two are supposed to be longer stories forming together my first book) is pretty much done, I need to write perhaps one or two more to give the whole collection a greater sense of closure.
Part 2 - an intended fantastic story set in Japanese countryside is about half-way done, but I'm not particularly satisfied with it. Part three is barely in it's beginning.
Meanwhile, I have two more ideas up my sleeve: a magical novel about family strife mirroring the animosity between Japanese Kami and Yurei, which I have in rough outlines and main characters fleshed out for, and my latest project I've been investing most of my time into, a modern-day set mystery novel about uncovering a history and a sort of conspiracy that has it's roots in late Hellenic heresies and cults. I'm doing a fuckton of research, but I don't suspect I even begin writing in the next year, and I don't think the book will be ready for prime time anywhere in the next five years horizon. It's a long run project, and I'm honestly not confident in my writing skills quite enough to tackle it head on yet.
Meanwhile I'm honing my skills on works of story threads, some small writing projects and on fictional (fantastic) traveler diaries that I don't suspect will ever be publishable.
>>48189258
Shoot us a link.
>>48187779
>Why can I only write stories that I'm not interested in?
You are experiencing which just about every single author with any serious ambitions is experiencing:
You are overly critical of your own work, your criticism of it only increases with the ambition and hope you put into it, and ironically, the increased criticism and anxiety of it working out "really well" makes your writing suffer.
This is an age-old truism that anyone will tell you, but it IS TRUE:
The only way around this is to write more. Write garbage. Write one version of the story, then write another one, then re-write it. Write every day for 1000 words. When you feel like you absolutely CAN'T continue writing one work, go write another - JUST DON'T STOP writing.
Also, start reaching out to readers. Seriously, get people reading your shit. Your friends, family, random people in StoryThreads here on /tg/, amateur author circles on reddit or wherever you want - find some people willing to read your garbage and talk to them about it. Having people read your stories may be painful, but no story is made WORSE by people reading it, and the feedback will both give you directions, and eventually, confidence.
>>48187785
Few people actually write their stories in a completely linear, chronological order from start to finish. Most write out key passages and sections of the text, then slowly build the missing gunk in between them.
>>48189488
Scrivener helped me a lot. Also, I often take advantage of time, seasons, real locations: making time tables, flowcharts, doing research to fit things in order forces you to make a clearer idea of what you want to write in advantage.
Making maps to lay out the space where your story takes place helps too.
When I write short stories, I don't outline, I literally let the words "flow" as they come in mind, when when it's a larger structured text, I have often dozens of pages with timetables, maps, flowcharts and shit.
>>48184836
Going about it the wrong way.
>>48189530
It's unfortunately in german.
But fuck it, whoever can read this barbaric language, have a book for free. It would be the worst thing if nobody reads it.Something happened to the cover while converting it to a pdf that I can't fix. Sorry.
>>48189767
Get dat shit into English, son. Nobody got time for the German nonsense.
>>48189767
Man this would be nice if my German wasn't limited to introductory greetings from 100 level courses. Heck even my French is better than my German at this point.
...Awkwardly, just by inference I can sort of grasp the meaning of some sentences. AND THEN I HIT THE FIRST CHAPTER. INSTANT KO.
Worldbuilding fag - can't focus on writing anything that's more than two pages long.
>>48189854
As weird as it sounds, ambitious world building and good writing tend to go rather poorly hand in hand.
>>48189767
I don't speak Zieganese, mind giving us a synopsis of it?
>>48189863
Because worldbuilding can be so limitless that eventually the world becomes too massive to fit within the confines of a novel? I mean that wouldn't sound that weird at all. Kind of intuitive really.
>>48189784
It took me years to finish this, it would take me a lifetime to translate it.
>>48189867
Young guy defends miraculously his not!greek city-state against another not!greek city-state and thinks it was a gods doing. Because of this he becomes the gods most faithful disciple and can, with a bit of meditation, make this god take over his body. Because it's a god of war, he wrecks the evil guys shit pretty hard. Until he finds out that the god of the dead/the dead god did some questionable things in the past and now gets hunted by other religious fanatics.
There is more to, but hard to explain without spoilering everything.
>>48189824
Don't worry, even germans struggle with their own language.
>>48189942
It amazes me how you can just add suffixes to words and join words together to make new words, and in many ways it terrifies me as well.
>>48189885
Not really, no. Because world-building and storytelling are (usually, not always) activities based on very much contradictory premises, necessities and requirements.
First of all, world building is in general highly speculative. All speculative fiction has an inherent problem with relatability: it's simply easier to identify with what you know to be than with what could possibly be. Most great storytellers talk about things people "know to be true" (though definitions of truth here massively vary), most world-builders actively pursue things that aren't "true", but rather are products of fantasy and whimsy.
Second of all, world building generally tends to be largely about inventing as many concepts ("items" if you want) in synchronically. X is somewhere and at the same time Y is somewhere else and then there is Z somewhere different at the same time.
Absolutely vast majority of storytelling is about diachronic chains of events. Z is an event that happens after Y which happened after X.
Third: world building relies on generalizations and abstractions. You speak about "magic" and "gods" and "technology", then about "continents" and "races" and "empires" etc.. all are extremely broad, wide categories.
Good storytelling is always about specifications: Concrete person, concrete place, concrete act, concrete symbol.
Of course, in theory and in rare cases, these things can combine and compliment each other. But this is achieved only by few selected masters of the craft. 99% of the time, people who are comfortable with one aren't comfortable with the other, and when they attempt combining world-building and good storytelling, they end up fucking up one side for the sake of the other.
Almost popular fantasy/sci-fi authors of the last few decades stated at one point or another that "world-building is killing fantasy", usually referring to the fact that most world-building oriented authors fail to focus on plot and even more importantly, characters.
(cont.)
>>48189967
>Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz
Is a word. It shouldn't surprise you that words like this are about laws and regulations. Officialese is a hell of a drug.
>>48190031
Yup. Even French doesn't get this bizarre. French gets nowhere close to this bizarre. Japanese and Chinese are a breeze in comparison. Bless hanzi for making things so simple.
>>48189989
I've experienced this myself when I started (partially as an experiment) working on two separate writing projects, very similar in scheme, describing memoirs and traveling diaries of two scholars, both of which explored their respective fictional and fantastic worlds.
The difference was:
One is set in the Land of the Bull, a fictional world I have been building and flashing out for many years now, with hundreds of pages of materials, descriptions, maps and backstories.
The other has no actually pre-mediated world to build on. It's just essentially a collection of ideas and moments as they come to me while writing and focusing on keeping the story interesting.
The former is far more intricate, detailed and interconnected: but it makes for a far worse read. Everything is dictated by the necessities of the world, and just describing the world as a functional space takes up bulk of the space and event-drive, even when I'm trying to limit it.
The second, while not nearly as intricate and detailed and interrelated - actually barely consistent at all, is just much more fun to read, a much better story.
>>48189989
I dunno. I think we've probably crossed paths before on worldbuilding general, given how small the community is. But personally while I can see your point, I've never seen worldbuilding as something so structured as what you're portraying it to be. But then again, I don't worldbuild with any further purpose in mind, just a matter of putting stuff down on paper for fun.
I think anyone can agree with your first point, it's a fair enough generalization to make. I'm going to assume that your second point is chalked up from personal experience, since I've never really seen that sort of temporal synchronicity from personal experience in worldbuilding. Multiversal timelines are just part of the fun, personally.
The third point again, I'm not sure, but I think it's a matter of definitions? I'd consider characters and individuals as part of worldbuilding, so generally specifics are unavoidable in plenty of cases. But then again I suppose people wouldn't consider writing out scenes and backstory for minor characters as part of worldbuilding.
I have no clue about world-building killing fantasy, not really in the authority to have an opinion on it anyways since I'm not a writer, but I suppose if people think that way they probably have a reason for their opinion. I suppose, coming from a different culture leads to a different perception of fantasy as well.
>>48184836
How many words is the average novel? My friend seems to think that 50,000 is a novella. Two of my books are 60,000, the third is at about 20/30,000 right now..
Anyways I've just stared something new that takes place in my setting. I honestly dunno what I'm trying to do with it. I've had writers block with the third book in my trilogy for years now.
>>48190371
Your friend is wrong, a novella is usually around 30,000 words, but that would still be a pretty short book. That said, Slaughter House Five is only 54,000 words long, so length does not equal quality.
>>48190223
I'm talking intentionally in great generalizations, more about the structural and systematic problems than specific cases. What I say I think might apply to a limited degree, but in a statistically significant sample of cases, if that makes sense.
I think the problems of synchronicity, structuralization and generalization do occur in large majority of cases, but people themselves aren't very aware of them. You might be considering some historical and diachronic aspects of your world, but it is almost always actually a minor side of the world building process (just consider: how much common is for people who world-build to draw maps, rather than write timelines...)
If you look into any world building enterprise, maybe even your own, ask yourself how often are you providing answers to "what" and "where" compared to "when" and "after what".
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, by the way. Actually, I think it's simply core part of the process...
The "world-building killing fantasy" is I think a very universal notion, related to a even more universal and old notion that fiction focused on anything but characters (and in rare cases, symbolic telling of character-driven stories) tends to be regarded as better and more profound than any other kind of fiction. It's basically the distinction that some scholars make about "genre" and "classic" fiction too - or closely related to that.
Literally snobbism seems to be very much culture-context-independant on this matter, too.
>>48190409
>Your friend is wrong, a novella is usually around 30,000 words
While the terminology is far from rigid and precisely defined on this matter, generally a difference is seen between a "novel" and "novella". Novella is generally thought to be an elongated short story, with focused story and only one main line and no distinct subplots, while a "novel" is deemed to be a long work providing multiple subplots or even multiple main storylines. Then again, sometimes a "novel" is just a broad term for any work of fiction that is published as a single, complete work (as opposed to being a part of collection), while "novella" is deemed to be a narrower term referring to a short-format novel.
Plus every language has it's own definitions and rules and conventions.
Solve one problem end up with another. I really don't want to have to redo the map from scratch because I like the fundamentals but I've been stuck on the conundrum of Raoxshan-Niravahnam-Arab Kingdom for awhile. I need Raoxshan to be in force projection territory to either, but also need the Arabs to be reasonably further away from Niravahnam.
I changed the map from http://imgur.com/a/deXDs (ignore the westernmost and northwest continents in that map) in order to achieve what I needed. I will do the terrain and landscape when I am settled on the outline. The problem is now the complete fantasy-y feeling of a T shaped continent. I managed to put more space between Niravahnam and the Arabs but that gave me the T issue.
I'm at an impasse as to what to do. I can't shrink that area beneath the arabs too far because I was going to put Abyssinia/Nubia inspired folks there. Not too many, but I wanted it reasonably close to the equator (400 miles marker, which I'll prob increase in scale to 500, is the equator) since it represents the East Africa region of 20s-0 degrees north.
If the large bay is filled then it works but then that nixes the separation of the Arab/Africa region and Niravahnam's India. Can't tilt Niravahnam up too much higher because it's on the golden spot of a latitude aligned with India (mostly below 30 degrees North).
,
>>48190371
>>48190977
While the dictionary definition of novel doesn't include a specific word count, there are standard word counts used for things like award categories that do use specific numbers to define the difference between a novel and a novella and a short story and so on.
And according to those standards, under 40000 is a novella, over 40000 is a novel.
Honestly, this isn't something that matters enormously. Different genres tend towards different lengths so there is no one average length of a novel, it varies. Most novels are between 60000 and 80000, with SFF door-stoppers reaching 120000. These lengths are typical, not mandatory.
>>48190939
No what you're saying makes perfect sense. If we took the entirety of the Earth's current worldbuilders and did a statistical study of their methodology, broke it down into numbers, and applied a bell curve to the process, it'd probably turn out exactly as you're describing. Like I said, I do this sort of thing for fun, so I have no clue what other people use as methods except for snippets of what I see on /tg/ and other places over the internet.
>ask yourself how often are you providing answers to "what" and "where" compared to "when" and "after what".
Equally often. Latter moreso than the former when linking timelines and worldlines together. But then again, I'm also the sort to never draw maps and instead write out world lines since I can't draw for my life anyways. So it's pretty likely my style of worldbuilding fits as an outlier on your bell curve.
>characters tends to be regarded as better and more profound than any other kind of fiction
Is that how Western folk see it? I'm not a very well read person by any means, so with what little education I have, most of how my culture gauged fiction wasn't so much about the characters as it was the inherent moral, intent, and message within the story. Political subtext, aspects of propriety, and stuff like that. To that extent the characters aren't much more than devices to be used to deliver those messages.
>Literally snobbism seems to be very much culture-context-independant on this matter, too.
Ahaha, well, deference to others is always preferred behavior in comparison to the alternative. It's far easier to look up at others than to look down.
>doing alright at character building
>my world building capabilities are atrocious
just
>>48184836
It always turns into a mix of excessive worldbuilding and charting plots but never getting any decent prose down on paper.
>>48191272
>And according to those standards, under 40000 is a novella, over 40000 is a novel.
Interesting. I never considered this from - say- a publishing side of things, but in "literally" circles, I've been always told that (loose) thematic and structural concepts (lack or presence of subplots, partiality or entirety of character arks etc...) are more important than word count. Simultaneously, all of these categories are supposed to be orientational and conventional (for an instance, I was taught that short story is not supposed to feature a character development ark, while a novel necessitates one, which is very much a 19th century way of thinking about literature, grossly outdated today and especially contrasted with non-european literally traditions)...
So yeah, these terms can be useful as a rough guide, but it's never a good idea to take them too seriously and literally.
>>48184836
anon, none of you want a book full of the porn worlds and stories in my head.
>>48191544
anon, none of you want a book full of the porn worlds and stories in my head.
You forget where you is nigguh?
>>48191544
There is a market for that.
>>48191556
Seems I forgot where I was, since I forgot a
>
o fug DDD:
>>48191544
There's always a market for smut.
>Been trying to write a setting
>Head full of tons of ideas
>Can't write for tits
>have a hard time putting ideas into paper
>cannot get properly motivated to get down to business and write stuff out
>too nervous about writing certain parts because I want to know more about the subject matter and the cultures I'll be cribbing ideas from
>worried I'll forget everything
>Can't think of a main plot or adventure, just a world
>Can only really right well when having a migraine and blowing my ears out to a lot of Prog Rock
>what I do write in those instances is this cosmological apocrypha in the vein of the 36 Lessons of Vivec, which sometimes even confuses me when I reread it.
>still haven't finished it
>been reading a lot of Wheel of Time, so I feel kinda inadequate anything
feelsbadman
>>48191313
>Like I said, I do this sort of thing for fun, so I have no clue what other people use as methods except for snippets of what I see on /tg/ and other places over the internet.
So do I. I just really like to overthink things and talk about broad (and sometimes entirely unreliable) assumptions about underlying processes and patterns. In general, I just like to see general patterns in stuff. It makes me happy for some reason. Gives me an edge in world building too. Not so much in writing...
>Is that how Western folk see it?
Not necessarily westerners. I for one am a Slavic slav which makes my point of view as "westerner" somewhat questionable to begin with. In fact, I think the emphasis on moral and social principles (as opposed to individual characters) is more of a western, French/English centric idea, while towards the east, the emphasis is once again driven away from overarching moral or social themes to individuality of characters (compare Russian realism to French realism).
The idea that a book is broadly speaking as good as it's characters is a little more modern formulation that I think was heavily driven from lessons taken from both world wars, and major shock that western literature experienced when met with things like Russian or Japanese literature, as a sort of an update on earlier, western emphasis on moral and social commentary.
But I've definitely seen the idea being said by authors from pretty much the entire world. I don't agree (not entirely, at least) with it myself.
But it is a common sentiment though, and I think it's a logical (if imprecise) formulation of the issue of believability and relevance: that is: people must find the story meaningful, relevant, and relatable. And there is nothing more close and relatable to us than "social reality" - people and their stories, so to speak. It's literally what our entire perception and most of our mindset is geared towards.
So far so good I would say. I think my setting is pretty solid after struggling with it for about a year. That and I finally got time to start writing the actual story which is actually turning out better than I expected.
Anyways, simply put:
>Western-Inspired
>A couple of criminals from a major city go way out of their comfort zone to scour a giant Finland in the middle of a civil war a la October Revolution.
>They're looking for treasure they heard about.
>>48191613
>>have a hard time putting ideas into paper
Welcome to reality, bitch. EVERYBODY has to deal with that, there is literally nobody (perhaps outside of a few actual, clinically diagnosed autists who have literally no concept of self-awareness) that would not have the same issue.
There is only one cure for this: practice and practice-based workflow. I have around hundred pages of materials, with some frankly very positive feedback from quite a few people, even with some business offers at the moment. Boy, did I feel like a complete idiot when I started with the whole world building thing... I thought it's entirely fucking hopeless.
Much like with any other creative activity, much like with normal regular writing: the only difference between being accomplished and not is being able to deal with the initial struggling. It sounds cheesy as fuck, but it's actually truth.
>too nervous about writing certain parts because I
Without wanting to be too much of a duchebag - you do know you can re-write, right?
Write what you have now, do more research, rewrite what you had, do more research. Just don't get stuck in an endless loop of re-writes and find a spot where you can finally say "that's enough".
What you write now DOES NOT REALLY MATTER. It's not the "real" thing. It's just a start. You build up on it. You have as many do-overs as you fucking want. Nothing that you write now will make into something final - you will eventually re-write all of it before you are satisfied with it anyway, no point in worrying.
>even confuses me when I reread it.
That sounds like you did good job. Try reading stuff like the Nag Hammadi scriptures. Confusing means authentic.
>so I feel kinda inadequate anything
You feel inadequate to one of the most accomplished authors of the genre who had spent decades of his life honing his style?
Great frame of reference you have there.
>>48191782
thanks anon, this actually did make me feel better.
I guess I better get back to writing it. Time for copious amounts of prog rock.
>>48191826
Just don't ruin your health and sanity while you are at it. Prog-rock is good. You might want to try expanding into related genres (classic, jazz, blues, and some kinds of folk music are usually most connected to prog-rock, or should I say most prog-rock is connected to those genres).
But consider yourself lucky. I sometimes find myself at this bizarre spot where I can only write to listening to a single specific, often entirely bizarre song or a record. Once I was "locked" into listening to Gwen Stefani's "Tick-Tock". I don't like Gwen Stefani. I never had. Don't like the song either. Except I could not focus on writing without it playing on repeat. This lasted for a fucking week.
So prog-rock, still the better option.
>>48184836
First draft is done. Now to face the crippling realization that the language you wrote it in has no market for fantasy lit that isn't A.) (badly) translated from English or B.) Warcraft ripoffs.
How do you deal with writer's block?
Written two 60,000-word novels, the third I am stuck on being at 10,000-30,000.
I've also written a bunch of short stories between then and now, one of which is a write-up of a friend's campaign. sadly most of the short stories I've never even finished. I feel like I'm writing them up just to flesh out the setting but, I dunno.
How do you deal with block?
>>48191871
>You might want to try expanding into related genres
I also do a lot of classic metal, power metal, the Nier soundtrack, the Bastion soundtrack, some Folk, and some Romantic Era music (particularly Dvorak).
Seriously, I think this setting might be mostly made from ideas gleaned from Yes, King Crimson, Dio, and Crimson Glory.
>>48191618
I suppose that maybe in part, it's more of a reflection of the readers at large than anything. If as you said, the readers are reading to insert themselves into the characters rather than to consider the world portrayed, then it's rather understandable that the thing they care about above all is the character more so than the world.
To that end, I think the long periods of cultural suppression throughout China's history probably did influence this difference to some extent, since the only way to vocalize dissent towards the world at large was literally to portray it through characters - hence characters being used as devices. But that was quite a while back, and even though the efforts to suppress unwanted opinions is still there, nowadays there's a bit more of an appreciation in Chinese literature for "worlds" as a means of escape moreso than anything.
Though as a result of this a lot of the more modern Chinese fiction tends to use the same main character archetypes with the same general plotlines. That and polygamy tends to show up far too often as well.
>>48191914
Reading.
>>48191914
My setting began as steampunk with lots of airships but around the time I started the third book thought that all of that was lame and decided to scrap it. Didn't wanna rewrite everything, so I made whatever was keeping the airships in the sky to be destroyed. I also exterminated the majority of the elves and dwarves. It was an apocalyptic war machine a la the death star though much smaller.
The third book is about the nearing-end of this huge war and the evil faction is now broken into several factions and cults while the good factions are hiding about in bunkers and a heavily-fortified city. The two main characters have to get to the big not-death star, free the slaves on board and kill the crazy dude who's taken over, because right now he's holding the world hostage..
>>48191914
Writing. Or getting drunk when writing.
>>48191914
Do things you enjoy. Go out with friends. Just anything that takes your mind off of writing for a longer while.
>>48184836
To make an original world for my game, what's the absolute minimum size world I could make for them and still be viable?
>>48192058
Honest answer: cover as much of the world so players have a solid choice of who to play and where to go. Size is flexible.
>>48191925
>Romantic Era music (particularly Dvorak).
Funny, that is by far my most favorite classical composer, with 7th being currently my most listened to classical composition, seconded by his violoncello concerto. I might be biased though, since I'm Czech.
In that vein (in case you haven't came across them yet), I can strongly recommend Tchaikovsky, Borodin, Mussorgsky and to a lesser degree Grieg, all very romantic, "iconographic" music with very evocative and in a way concrete imaginary.
Personally, I find a lot of inspiration lately in Hisaishi Joe's scores (Naushicaa and Laputa in particular are awesome) and in soundtracks by one Bruno Coulais - the score to Song of the Sea and Secret of Kells movies.
That is, unless my brain throws a strike and demands I listen to fifty repeats of fucking "I see Fire" or I won't be doing any writing for some god damn reason. At least I zone the music out when I actually focus on writing itself.
>>48192093
>Czech music
I wrote half of my current project to based Smetana. Top tier country for classical shit.
>>48192012
Way ahead of ya
>>48192039
I do this weekly but, I dunno. Maybe I should go in and try again, or maybe read it and think of what I wanna do next? Hm
>>48191914
I'd just write alternative conclusions and such. Different snippets, entirely different things. Watch some variety shows on youtube. Listen to music. Read some stuff.
>>48192058
>>48192058
>To make an original world for my game, what's the absolute minimum size world I could make for them and still be viable?
Nothing. You can make it up as you go, really. But if you want to do a good work, it's always worth covering the actual playspace (size of which may depend on your and your group play style: I usually have campaigns taking place on a relatively limited space, as I prefer very local, location-grounded adventures, but some GM's and some groups like to travel a fair bit, have their adventures to be a bit of a road trip...).
It's also a good idea to have some basic outlying ideas for things player won't get to see, but still may be relevant to the story. Exotic locals from which exotic goods may be coming from, strange lands that legends tell tales about etc...
Same goes for history: you might need just the last 50 years of local history for the campaign itself, but it's always a good idea to have at least few stories of old history at hand to give your campaign a sense of depth and rooting.
>>48192115
>Top tier country for classical shit.
I actually think our best composer is Janaček, but his work is like what Yes is to Prog-rock: it's just sometimes too much to listen to regularly. Yeah, we have good classical music. Thought I not much fond of Smetana (his last work, The Prague Carnival is fun, if for nothing else then the noticeable impact on late-stage syphilis on the composition).
Janáček, Dvořák and Zelenka are top tier though.
Went autismo with worldbuilding over 10 years ago. Put it down because I couldn't come up with good characters or an overarching story (this is my main problem as a writer).
Now, I picked up table top as a way to improve my character building. I've been playing for about 2 years now. One of the other players and I decided to tackle a writing project together, but we didn't want to rip things off from the campaign since the DM uses modules and his own homebrew setting.
This brings us back to my old setting, which I haven't touched in so long, and now we have a functional world to work in. It needs some tweaks, but with the framework of having a map, city names, etc we can jump into writing. It's been awesome getting someone else on board to fix some of the problems of the original world building, stepping outside of cliche and making something that's cool and unique. I love our characters and, though the over arching plot is still in the works, I'm having fun just writing cool adventures.
>tfw can't write antagonist being threatening without veering into bondage territory
>>48184836
Eh I have this idea for a 40k novel about a lot of the famous regiments coming together, like death korps and moridian iron guard, and so on and so forth to make an experimental regiment.
>>48192461
Yeah, collaborative world-building and writing can be an absolute blessing and joy. Fun thing: if you have to explain your entire world to someone, and you suddenly feel stupid saying some things, that is the best way to identify things that might have worked better in your head than in reality.
There is one hitch there: though almost never will you both actually end up with the same vision of the same things. For people very proud and very inflexible about their settings, this might end up being a shock and a ground for a lot of issues. In your case, you have the advantage of having ten years between you and the world building process, which probably makes you a lot more willing to change it and adjust it.
We have a deal with a friend that we run pretty much every single one of our world building ideas through each other, though each of us has an "absolute creative control" over one of our world building projects. It's a fine balance between space for brainstorming and external input, and frustration that one of is taking the other's work in a wrong direction...
>>48192590
There is a name and place for such types of fiction. "Fan fiction" if I'm not mistaken. And there is actually an entire set of sites dedicated to that kind of works, even some officially published magazines and compendiums.
>>48192171
That's a good idea too!
>>48192611
Absolutely, I agree about the inflexibility being a potential problem. I've caught myself a few times "correcting" him on some aspects, but then we have a conversation to refine ideas. We actually decided to split up the world based on our own specific interests. For example, he is pretty much a scholar about the Holy Roman Empire, so he's building up the main city/culture around that. Last night we made a document explaining how the magic in the world worked, so we took turns writing up entries for mages and clerics. It's a huge relief to run ideas by another person as you said because you can find out if the idea is dumb dumb. It just feels great to get back to writing after so many years. Writing with a friend has been the best cure for writer's block.
>>48191357
I have the opposite problem. I tend to make pretty fleshed out worlds and settings but my character skills are terrible
>>48193120
MAYBE WE CAN WORK TOGETHER
>>48184836
I have too many ideas for too many books.
>low fantasy war story about a farmer drafted into the army and joining a mercenary band later
>WWI era fictional world with slavic countries and an infantry regiment that is basically the 442nd
>story that is an extension of a D&D my group did
>a magitech story that I haven't written yet inspired by Nanoha and other neo-mahou shojo anime
>AltHist mecha story set in Imperial Japan that came out of an AdEva campaign
>a sci fi i created with my friend with a collection of stories
The longest one I have is my low fantasy story which is at like 70k words or so. Almost 3/4ths of the way done.
>>48193124what sort of setting/plot is your book?
>>48193221Antiquity/roman-era esque fantasy, the plot is more or less an administrator being transfered to a new region, and having to learn about the region whilst trying to prevent the entire area from destabalising for various reasons
>>48193325Have you tried writing a history/world doc for the region itself? What are you having trouble with?
>>48193349well I can get a sort of 2 generation history down, but it's focused on a series of characters, I have not even thought about the regions of this empire asides from the empire itself and a district where the character is moved to administrate
>>48193416I think a good place to start would be the adminstrational/governmental structure of the empire. You don't have to know what every other region is, but at least have a general idea of the layout of each one. An idea of how administrators are assigned and how cities are governed would be a good start as well.
>>48193513
So who runs what, and how the region is governed on a smaller scale? I can dig that
now to get myself to do that, fuck
>>48184836
Writing a game, but the details would be considered so magical-realmy they'd break the magical realm scale
>>48194615
You had my attention. Now, you have my interest.
>>48186290
>replying to a post from 12+ hours ago
I know, I know.
Check out Cormyr. It's a Forgotten Realms novel that spans from -79 DR to 1369 DR at least, told outside chronological order. Each chapter starts off listing the date in the header, before the text beings. The main story in the then-present takes place in 1369, and each skip back to a past era is to build the land and it's history. It's been a while, but I don't think there's exactly any link between each era, it's not like there are people in the past sitting there wondering about the future, or men of the then-present digging through books to read about the past. It's more like Dosto's Grand Inquisitor where the historical chapters are presented so the reader understands what the characters are talking about, and since the historical bits are so lengthy, it just explains to the reader outside the present time line.
I'm not sure how you intend to use your time skips, but the scheme Cormyr used works well. Then again, it's written as a historical saga, rather than a more personal adventure.
>>48185450
Damn, I like this.
>>48191914
>60,000 words
>novel
I think I may be doing something wrong, if this is novel length. One of my projects I'm writing on, I set myself a hard goal of 10k words, minimum, per chapter. I'm about 5-10% of the way into chapter seven, if I had to guess, and considering that some of them get to nearly 11k words, I'm probably at almost 65-70k total words. In just over six chapters.
Is this bad?
>>48197554
60k consititutes a novel. Again, this varies from genre to genre and from book to book. I see many people saying SFF should be about 80k words so I think that's a good number. I think your book is too long. Don't set goals for words per chapter. Write chapters as they come and not as word goals. And yes, what you are doing is bad because a reader will get bored if something gets too long and they will lose interest.
>>48184836
I've built the setting, history, key players/concepts, and even the back stories of the MC's extensive family
I worldbuilding through writing and cartography
Currently writing a book from the perspective of a Dwarven traveler cataloging his trek through the kingdoms.
>>48197846
I think it depends on the person reading it. The person that I'm writing, "for," my beta test reader, loves them some exposition, and I like writing longform stuff.
Though, if I do ever decide to make it into a general audience thing, I will probably edit it down to a shorter length. Either that or package it as interconnected short stories between actual, shorter chapters that are interludes between arcs of a shorter, more involved story. Like, main story arc 1, short story part 1, main story arc 2, short story part 2, etc.
When do you stop worldbuilding? What elements do you think are needed to comfortably call it a "world?"
>>48199963
I'm a worldbuild fag so I stop worldbuilding whenever has an internal reason for why it works that way and how. I've met people who completely just ignore worldbuilding and just get straight to the plot/characters. As a general note though, I usually stop worldbuilding when I have all the neccessary details for the character(s) and how they interact with the world as well as a backdrop for the plot to take place.
