Guns guns guns! What game is best for combat with repeating firearms? I'd say this goes back to the Old West with revolvers and lever action rifles and such up to the modern day. What games do this sort of combat best?
>>48183525
RuneQuest 6/Mythras
>>48183525
Define best.
>>48183525
I'm also interested in this, because I have a need for Operational Operators RPG.
>>48183609
>Operational Operators RPG
Phoenix Command. Somebody will try and sell you Ops and Tactics, but PC is superior.
>>48183525
GURPS.
>>48183525
GURPS: Lots of material, well established system. Injuries and shooting mechanics aren't great, but they're there.
Cyberpunk: If you filter out the cyborg stuff it can work in any era.
Call of the Void: /tg/ homegrown, pretty much peerless in terms of mid-20th century combat. Similar to Cyberpunk but D10 only.
Deadlands: Probably the best RPG with guns on the market.
Ops and Tactics: Homegrown, very good game, runs on D20 if you like familiarity.
>>48183674
>Probably the best RPG with guns on the market.
Heh.
>>48183525
Britton Publishing's Final Combat or SOF Warrior
>>48183525
Don't read any of these memesters, they will recommend games that have a gorgrillion rules and more supplements than the torah.
Play D&D 5e with the D20 Modern conversion, it has crunchy enough rules to not be completely imbalanced and it has enough rules to not be a narrative game.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Byx44op3KqQ2flhIV1pKSzRIbFBtbjk4T0xOTlNzVi0yTEpRREV4ZnZCNjJWd25GOFR5VW8&usp=sharing
GURPS is a one size fits none. Play this for GURPSposting.
Phoenix Command will only be fun if you're german. Play this if you want 220% realism.
Ops and Tactics "fixes" the original D20 Modern. Play this if you want 3.5e with guns.
If you want something with rules but not RULES then I can only recommend the D20M conversion, otherwise.. just play Phoenix Command or Apoc WorldDon't play 13th Age with the guns
>>48183761
>Play D&D 5e with the D20 Modern conversion
>>48183525
Ask in the historical wargaming geneeral
>>48183780
Lets be real, OP either wants 3.PF with guns or 5e with gunsI still recommend Phoenix Command
40k rpg
>>48183622
Tell me about both, so that I may judge.
>>48183674
Deadlands looks a bit narrative-y to me, with the chips and gambling. I like it in principle but it might not be for me as a pure game.
Call of the Void isn't bringing up any hits. What is it?
>>48183700
Tell me more.
>>48183761
If I wanted to play D&D, I would.
>>48183877
I played Rogue Trader, it wasn't really my cup of tea.
>>48183990
Phoenix Command is possibly the most realistic gunfight simulator on the RPG market. Handles it with tables like this (it makes much more sense if you know the system).
O&T is an attempt to make d20 Modern not shit.
I think Call of the Void is related to Song of Swords, which is a highly realistic fantasy game.
>>48183990
>Final Combat
Claimed to be a super realistic WWII skirmish/RPG system. SoF Warrior is the modern version
Review here: http://mainly28s.com/review/+1939B.rulebook.001.html
http://www.brittonpublishers.com/Files/SOF_Review.pdf
I'm not aware of a scan but the PDF rules aren't too expensive
>>48184088
CotV was made by the same guys who made SoS. It was originally intended as a joke, but the fans now agree that it's actually better than the original game.
SoS was super realistic fantasy HEMA stuff, CotV is WWII-era operators operating.
OP i think you should just look at arma 3 and emulate how the game works as best as possible for a table top game.
>>48184088
>Posting the basic hit table
come on man at least post the proper hit table.
But yeah, I agree with this anon, Phoenix Command really scratches the operator itch if you can get the rule book, it's pretty heavy with the book keeping and can take a LONG time to play your first few times around.
>>48185673
>if you can get the rule book
https://mega.nz/#F!Q4IWzLjI!vbDtE42ykKsY7iSqpkiZPg
Still uploading at the moment, but when it's done it'll have everything from Sword's Path - Glory to the Aliens Adventure Game.
>>48185854
>Rhand Morningstar Mission
Holy fuck I was looking for this forever after peeking through one of the rule books. Glad to see someone uploaded it, some of these books can be a bitch to find.
>>48185854
Speaking of, are you missing any books anon?
>>48185915
I'm still missing some stuff like the High-Tech WDS, Russian Roulette, In The Name of God, and the Playing Aids, but they're being difficult to find as well.
>>48186015
>>48186104
And Dragonstar Rising, which is a Rhand/Living Steel thing.
>>48186129
I think the only thing I have on that list are the mechanized playing aids, I'm missing the other stuff too.
>>48186129
Something tells me that book on airstrikes never got made.
>>48186140
>>48186129
>>48186104
>>48186015
How feasable would some of these be for playing with a simpler, less RPG-like system like Force on Force or whatever?
>>48186140
Not the mechanized ones, the regular ones.
I'm also missing Spectrum Small Arms, PC's predecessor, but I doubt anybody ever bought that. SPG Book 2 was hard enough to find.
>>48186206
Phoenix Command and similar games is great for small force on force style wargames, it's pretty much a wargame with a light RPG system tacked on.
Alright so besides CotV, Phoenix Command and Ops and Tactics, does anyone else know of any other good operator games?
>>48187182
Twilight 2000, GURPS with all the realism options on and Tactical Shooting in play.
>>48187231
Anything else? I already have those, was hoping some anon would share their magical wisdom and upload something cool.
>>48187329
Albedo, maybe?
>>48183525
>>48187679
Oh right, that sci-fi furry game. I completely forgot about it, is there any particular version I should look into?
>>48187716
>>48187679
Oh hey, I have physical copies of the 10th and 20th anniversary editions, and the comics and some of the fanzine.
If you're not interested in the setting/comics, it's probably not worth looking into. It is getting republished at some point soon though.
The 90's "2nd" edition focuses on characters. It tracks character's opinions of things and ties to them (politics, people, etc), and how the character feels at the moment, and these are used in rolls. Combat is simple 2d6+modifiers, stupid deadly and uses an action sequence chart a-la Heroes with stat-wounds reminiscent of Twilight 2000 and all deaths are technically by the bleed-mechanic. Focuses on a handful of individuals caught in socio-political "incidents" eg like being in the Egyptian military during the last revolution.
20th anniversary 2004 edition is freeform RP with streamlined rules to run small skirmishes with a squad and vehicles, focusing on a larger scale like one player having and running a whole APC+crew. Stats are greatly simplified, reminded me of Numenera with exhausting & damaging a stat pool.
Not sure I would consider it for anything but running the actual kind of campaigns it was made for.
>>48187848
Yeah it doesn't seem like it'd be up my alley, I'm not too into sci-fi, not a furry and I'm a /k/ommando through and through, shit that sabot design is bothering me. Pic for reference of what an actual firearm sabot looks like.
>>48187329
>Anything else?
More suggestions:
Twilight 2013, which is very removed from Twilight 2000 mechanically. I don't have a lot of experience with it, but I know it's
Shadowrun, good balance of crunch/streamlined with a decent amount of gun-porn customization that's actually functional.
With a good GM, Shadowrun is OPERATOR AS FUCK. Probably the most of anything I've played.
>>48187848
Forgot to add: The 2004 edition rules had an interesting damage system. Weapons had Base+X damage, where you roll a number of d20s (more from situational bonuses... or shotgun), against an armor hardness rating. Each d20 > penetration resistance does +X damage. Then total damage is compared to the armor's damage threshold for wound effects. EG 1 penetration for an "8+7" bullet does 15 damage, compare to armor: 14,24,34... is >14 therefore 1st level wound status effects.
The 80/90's edition just rolled on a chart, where armor's penetration resistance and impact spread ratings shifted the rolled result across the chart, which then directly read status effects.
>>48187955
>What an actual firearm sabot looks like.
... Airforce veteran designed and drew the comic+RPG. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. The setting has cheap composites, hence sabots.
>>48187994
Just because he's airforce doesn't mean he knows shit about firearms. Considering the way the sabot is shaped it wouldn't be much more effective at penetrating armor than a standard bullet, because it has roughly the same amount of surface area as a traditional 4mm spitzer round would.
>>48188032
Those are the petals. They come off. It's for building pressure behind the projectile while it accelerates.
They're in your picture too.
>>48188044
The fins in the rear aren't the sabot and the entire front part of the round looks like it's one solid block of metal, as far as I can tell the caseless propellant serves as the sabot in that picture.
>>48188066
OK which one are you looking at.
The 6mm one says in the picture:
>"is not saboted ... slower heavier slug".
>>48188066
>>48188032
>>48187955
Found the IRL version.
>>48187960
>Shadowrun
Seconding
>>48187231
>Twilight 2000
Seconding
>>48183674
>Deadlands
Seconding but also see Savage Worlds.
>>48183525
Good luck OP, what's out there is a shit selection to choose from. Melee combat is easier to design better.
>>48183525
>best
>implying there is one overall best
What do you like, OP? Simulationism? Quick and painless? Hollywood action? Gritty? Emphasis on high noon shoot-outs?
Anybody who gives an answer to OP before clarifying these issues is a shill.
>>48183761
>Play D&D 5e with the D20 Modern conversion
Worst. Advice. Ever.
>>48183990
>I played Rogue Trader, it wasn't really my cup of tea.
Different anon. No, but really... 40K Roleplay has a good combat system. I would recommend that you give it a second glance if it wasn't too burdensome to have to generate stats for all kinds of modern weapons yourself.
>>48188262
Isn't that a sub-calibre bullet rather than a fin stabilised flechette?
>>48188690
Doubt it, the tip looks like a sabot dart.
Sub-caliber bullets still look like bullets, but with the plastic shell.
>>48188620
The thing about guns is that the terminal ballistics of most rounds falls into only a few categories.
Basically all rifle rounds perform the same.
Basically all intermediate rounds perform the same.
Basically all pistol rounds are 9mm or 45 acp which perform pretty much the same.
When bullets are in the same ballpark to each other one doesn't magically kill people twice as good. 7.62 nato and 7.62x54r are equally good at killing in practice. So it's kinda silly to try and numerically rate and adjust the stats of guns that are all functionality identical. Gameplay wise a tavor should have the same stats as an Aug, a FAL should have the same stats as a G3, and so on.
>>48188715
But anon, that's BORING
>>48183761
>inb4 i was just pretending to be retarded
>>48188715
>Gameplay wise a tavor should have the same stats as an Aug, a FAL should have the same stats as a G3, and so on.
Huh, I wonder how military trials work if what you're saying is true.You're forgetting that nearly all bullets have different ballistic patterns, recoil impulses, even penetration against armour and what have you.
>>48188727
This. If I wanted realism, I would watch a documentary on the Middle Ages instead of Game of Thrones. Same applies to RPGs.
>>48188804
I don't think the differences between the platforms would really need to be explored if you're not going heavy on simulationism.
Some things might come up, like integrated suppressors, different magazine types/capacities, or excessive weight differences, but most of the time they'd perform in a similar fashion.
>>48188989
Let's not forget that the economical side matters for the military A LOT.
>>48188989
You don't even need to go heavy on simulationism. If you want a system with guns that has any emphasis on action, you're going to need more than just Damage, RoF, and Capacity.
>>48188989
Small differences have made significant historical footnotes, though, and have in rare cases altered the course of firefights, if not entire theaters of battle.
That kind of thing might best be left as fluff notes or other sorts of worldbuilding, but I don't think it's de facto simulationist to want to acknowledge that effect in gameplay.
>>48188809
I think a big part of it is how it's handled. One of the weaknesses of CotV in my opinion is that it's got like 30 calibers listed out, all of which perform almost the same as the others of their basic type. You've got like ten pistol calibers which perform basically the same, and then ten rifle cartridges which perform basically the same until you get to the antitank stuff. Problem is even the smallest serious rifle cartridge will instantly inflict a level 5 wound through pretty much all the armor, which is the maximum.
The only real advantage to bringing 50 BMG over .303 British is if your enemy is in full body armor, and then also behind a cement wall.
Another problem is that LMGs and HMGs alike are pretty much useless, there's no point bringing one instead of a rifle unless you're going to be suppressing a field fifty meters wide. Which, I guess, could happen.
>>48189254
CotV?
>>48183525
Traveller. Simple. Effective. Deadly. Semi/burst/auto fire. Diving for cover, spending time aiming for a bonus. Recoil fucking up your aim, all modern weapons statted out (plus futuristic and ancient ones too).
Characters can use tactics and leadership to boost peoples initiative.
Damage is applied directly to your physical stats, so if you get hit, you're going to be combat-ineffective pretty quickly, or unconscious (or dead) if you weren't wearing body armor or taking cover.
Its just great for gun combat. even does western duels: 1 hit from a revolver wearing no armor and you're down.
>>48189332
Some of the equipment and stats.
Each weapon has a different recoil, magazine size, damage, weight etc.
Weight only becomes an issue if you get hit pretty bad and can no longer carry your gear.
>>48189303
Call of the Void. It's the SoS offshoot for modern combat. Homegrown /tg/ stuff.
>>48189370
SoS?
>>48189360
This is old Traveller, or Mongoose Traveller? It doesn't look like the 2300AD stuff I have, that's for sure.
>>48189387
Song of Swords, another /tg/ game. It's into like HEMA stuff but with fantasy elements. I didn't really get into that though, not really into medieval fantasy. Supposedly it's going to kickstart soon, but they've been saying that since before the new Exalted edition came out.
>>48189418
Ah, I've heard of that, and now that I think about it, Call of the Void sounds familiar as well. Does the system use a psuedo real-time combat scheme like Twilight 2013 does, or am I thinking of something different here?
>>48189403
Mongoose Traveller 2300AD is slightly more technical
>>48189586
How so?
>>48189492
Something like that. Each round is divided into phases which are like a fraction of a second long, and characters can only act in all of them if they're fast enough, so I think it's probably similar to what you're talking about. SoS is on an older system that's broken as shit, but the lead developer has been saying that they're going to reverse engineer CotV's system into it, so that they both run the same.
I can't speak for how similar it is to Twilight 2013 because I haven't played it, but the system works pretty great. Not bad for something made in two days.
>>48189629
Yes, that does sound fairly similar to T2k13's tick system.
>>48189254
There was a damage rework in 1.4, rifles aren't insultingly killy now.
>>48189701
Huh. Thought those guys were famous for never updating. I'll have to check it out.
>>48189987
We've got a proff of concept page for SoS and everything now. Ballad has actually been doing pretty good as updates go
>>48183674
>GURPS: Lots of material, well established system. Injuries and shooting mechanics aren't great, but they're there.
Did you miss the two books literally entirely about shooting mechanics?
>>48185854
>https://mega.nz/#F!Q4IWzLjI!vbDtE42ykKsY7iSqpkiZPg
Thanks anon - I haven't seen Living Steel in years and years...
>usually long-range combat
>most of the time one hit means death
>due to range you cannot even shittalk the enemy
>no feel of heroism
Is modern combat a mistake?
>>48190634
Modern combat is best experienced from the cockpit of a helicopter or fighter aircraft
>>48188804
The differences between say 5.45 ball and 5.56 ball are so slight you would need a stupidly complicated system to model them.
Same thing for the rifles themselves. The system needed to model the differences between a tavor and an Aug would need to be insanely granular. Okay the tacor can be reloaded 5% faster. Or the AUG is 2% more accurate. How do you model that in a game? The differences are so slight you'd need a hugely bloated rule set to model them, and then you have to ask what's the point?
And modern military trials are usually quite neck and neck. The army's Individual Carbine trials were cancelled because the new rifles (SCAR, ACR, 416, and others), didn't perform better enough to justify the massive cost and logistical nightmare of adopting a new rifle.
I once homebrewed a game in Half Life's setting and I gave all the ~.20 caliber assault rifles the same stats. So the M16 was the same thing as a ACR. All .30 caliber assault rifles were the same thing. So an AKM was the same as a Vz. 58. All the battle rifles were the same thing. And so on. Firearms technology has plateaued to the point where most rifles that shoot the same round are basically the same.
>>48191185
This. Even 7.62 vs 5.56 isn't that different in terms of penetrating cover
https://looserounds.com/2015/08/30/does-an-m14-really-turn-cover-into-concealment/
I like Force on Force's approach and while not at all what OP is looking for, their philosophy is good: in modern warfare, differences in training/skill of the man behind the gun matters a lot more than differences between equivalent guns themselves.
>>48185854
>https://mega.nz/#F!Q4IWzLjI!vbDtE42ykKsY7iSqpkiZPg
>SPG BOOK 1 AND 2
HOLY FUCK JESUS CHRIST, HOLY FUCK THANK YOU, OH MY GOD I AM DYING RIGHT NOW.
>but when it's done it'll have everything from Sword's Path - Glory
do you have the advanced sword path glory book ?
>>48186104
>I'm still missing some stuff like the High-Tech WDS, Russian Roulette, In The Name of God, and the Playing Aids, but they're being difficult to find as well.
I have high-tech WDS but its merged with the living steel pdf, I am uploading it
>>48185854
>>48192707
Anyway, some stuff about your upload:
1-The colonial marines technical manual is not from leading edge or for the alien rpg or phoenix command
2-fatigue rules, amatorial rules, mental rules and equipament rules arent core books. Maybe adding a sub-folder for house rules would be better.
3-Your book spg book is the white book and is missing some damage tables
3.1-They made "sword path glory book 1" 2 times, the first one was the red book that had way more tables than the one with white cover, they did the second one to simplify stuff and make more people buy their books. Dont know if book 2 and advanced book 1 would be compatible with the red book.
4-What books arent there yet on your mega folder that you didnt said yet:
Rhand hand to hand damage supplement: Book for rhand morningstar missions that have more detailed tables, the core book split the body into just 8 parts.
Spectrum Small arms: Firearms rpg, would be more detailed than phoenix command if they didnt released all those phonix command books with more realistic rules
Spectrum Small arms Hand to hand combat rules: Less realistic than rhand morningstar missions is.
Sword Path Glory red book
Sword path glory advanced rules book 1
*194 pages of Damage Tables
*19 Armor Classes
*30 Armor Locations with rules for mixed or layered armour and heavy plate
*Shield Damage and Penetration
*Knockdown and Balance Rules
*Terrain, Visibility and Position corrections
*Hit Locations for attack from the front, rear, left or right
*Target Size adjustments to damage
*Expanded Parry Rules
>>48192707
>>48185854
The living steel book pdf with high tech weapon data supplement at the end
http://www54.zippyshare.com/v/bLCKls5r/file.html
>>48183622
>Tries to aim at enemy in Phoenix Command
5 hours of complex math later, misses.
>>48188608
As much as I like 5e, the d20 Modern conversion isn't good. Assault rifles are literally just bows that can use more ammo for an AoE.
>>48188804
Yeah, but an RPG can't really account for real world physics, and the difference is so minimal that it's better just to divide guns into rough groups and give all guns in a group the same stats.
>>48190490
Overly complex = not great.
>>48190681
No, modern combat is best experienced as sneaky criminals/assassins who use stealth, cover and advanced technology/tactics to eliminate whole buildings full of enemies without worrying about snipers.
Basically Shadowrun without magic.
>>48191281
Exactly.
Guns are accurate and bullets deadly. What matters is how accurate you are.
When will I not be laughed at for using a MP5K "its just a 9mm" or be mistaken for a South American drug lord's grunt?
>>48191281
But FoF is a wargame, and thus most likely isn't as in depth as the squad based combat found in most RPGs. There is a big difference between 7.62x51mm and 5.56x45mm, which is about 100 meters in range, a much larger recoil impulse, and a much bigger bullet wound.
When you're dealing in complete abstracts like most wargames do, sure, it works fine, but in an RPG it's more focused on the individual, and thus makes more sense to have more detailed rules on these things.
>>48194171
>5 hours of complex math
you mean basic addition? There's not even a single moment where you do any multiplication or anything, it's just basic addition and subtraction, what takes the most time is just remembering what rule applies to what your first few goes around.
>>48195857
>8mm mauser does the same amount of damage as x39
>nugget food is more lethal
the fuck is this?
>>48196082
No clue, but apparently they used some overly complicated equation to figure the damage and penetration out, and didn't just guess it.
As a note, 99% of gunfights will occur at medium range, where the x39 does 6/x2 while 8mm does 7/x2. It does make a bit of difference, I suppose.
>>48194171
>Tries to aim at enemy in Phoenix Command
>5 hours of complex math later, misses.
What? With the core book only its simple as this.
1-With your skill with weapon you will find sal, that will be always the same unless you change your skill
2-You aim for X seconds (that can be 0) and shoot, and look for the weapon data for a number Y based on amount of turns aiming
3-The dm find the distance between you and the thing you tried to hit
4-the sum of Y + skill + distance ( + modifiers ) is used on a table to find the chance to hit
>>48196292
Not the anon who was posting earlier, but that does seem fairly simple. I would consider using Phoenix Command, if it weren't for the fact that I would likely have to stat new guns for it, or make up some rules regarding things like radiation sickness and disease.
>>48183761
2/10 made me cringe.
>>48183761
>GURPS is a one size fits none. Play this for GURPSposting.
The one thing GURPS does very well is shooting. It has a pretty damn good system for it.
>>48196327
There are a few online sites that offer stats for modern guns, but otherwise statting for new gun would be pretty much entirely guess work and arbitary values because the formula never made it out there.
>>48196491
>but otherwise statting for new gun would be pretty much entirely guess work and arbitary values because the formula never made it out there.
http://pccs.understairs.nl/weapondesigner.html
It would seem you're wrong about that. The issue is that I would have to stat guns that don't exist.
>>48196327
>if it weren't for the fact that I would likely have to stat new guns for it,
There is some guy that is reverse engeniering the math they used in the game and will make his own retroclone that in some cases will be more advanced.
Anyway, another one did the same and there is a excel file that generate gun for you, you just need to put the gun info, like weight and etc....
I think its for download on the phoenix command yahoo group
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/phoenix_command/info
but cant see because I dont have a yahoo email and wont use my cellphone to make an email (needed to create a yahoo mail)
>>48196527
>The issue is that I would have to stat guns that don't exist.
This site handle hypothetical guns, you just need the stats (sight radius, bullet mass......).
There is living steel, that is a scifi game from same company that is less complex but was entirely made to be used with phoenix command rules (with weapons having all the stats needed to use with phoenix command). The game has laserguns and if you want you can use them, but no one found a way to convert hyphotetical laser guns not on the book to phoenix command weapons
>>48194323
>Not cherry picking through the rules like usual.
Do you even GURPS?
>>48196696
>>48196786
I used this calculator, and I'm not sure if this seems fine. As a test, I used the French gauss rifle from 2300AD.
>>48196965
This site doenst have the formula for the DC and tell you to find a similar weapon and use the weapon DC.
The excel one I found somewhere, calculated the DC too
