A while back, I watched Reign of Assassins with a friend, and not too long ago I saw Shaolin (which is not technically a Wuxia film, but whatever). I am in a mood for stories of daringdoo in the secret circles of martial arts, and the world that surrounds it.
Have you ever run a Wuxia campaign, how dit it go?
What system do you prefer?
What movies, series and books would you recommend someone to immerse themselves in the genre?
Buddhism, Daoism, Confusianism, or one of the many different folk beliefs?
>>48179820
With this.
>>48179911
>>48179893
>>48179940
>>48179962
I've got LotW, but I've had no opportunity to play it with anyone yet.
>>48180023
Sadness abounding!
That inflames a Metal Passion in my lower intestine out of sympathy.
>>48180090
I thank you, I feel a Perseverence Inspiration coming up. If it's my destony to go without a game of LotW, so be it.
Feng Shui 2 is a fucking masterpiece.
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive.html?tags=Wulin%20Hero%20QuestSage if you are on this thread I AM trying to guilt you into running again.
>>48179820
>Buddhism, Daoism, Confusianism, or one of the many different folk beliefs?
I mean, with Chinese mythology, it's all one and the same, basically.
>>48180469
Technically, Confusianism is philosophy on proper statesmanship/socioeconomics, no?
>>48180502
Correct, though it's less about economics and more about gentlemanly behavior and social propiety.
>>48180529
On the subject of ancient chinese philosophies, I read Bokko a while back (also not Wuxia), which introduced me to Mohism. I still don't got all of it down, but I believe it's all about rationalism and meritocracy?
Most I remember is that Mohist thinkers where also excelent siege engineers, and had a disdain for the fine arts, because it didn't benefit the well being of the working classes
>>48180613
Yes, Mohism was basically meritocratic thought and promotions based purely on competence rather then lineage or seniority.
Mo Di himself was a strongly rationalist person and took great interest in the sciences and mathematics, which are useful applications in siege warfare.
There's an unusual and amusing Hong Kong-made TV series about a HKPD officer who ends up traveling back in time to the Warring States Era (somehow) and using his modern-day knowledge of both history and sciences to advance himself in a local kingdom to stay safe while trying his damndest not to alter history too much.
To explain away his modern viewpoint and strong backround in science and advanced education he basically passes himself off as a Mohist.
>>48180613
Mo Di's distain for art actually probably stems from his strong dislike of Confucianist philosophy.
Confucianism ALSO believes strongly in learning and education (hence the Scholar-Bureaucracy), but the stuff you're supposed to be educated in is stuff like poetry, literature, and moralist Confucian writings and stuff like that, the skills of a Junzi, the ideal Confucian gentleman.
Mo Di basically thought that this was a huge waste of time because it promoted people who basically equated skilled statecraft with philosophy and poetry knowledge even though as Mo Di saw it they were completely unrelated to anything involving statecraft at all. Instead he believed leaders should have a strong knowledge of practical sciences to make better informed decisions about matters of state for more efficient governing rather then waste time with literature and poetry.
>>48180721
That sounds pretty amusing. I wonder what China would be like today, if Mohism became the dominant philisophy post-Warring States, instead of Confucianism or Legalism. I want to say government would've been more stable and effective, but most of the Chinese dynasties held out for 200+ years, which is still impressive.
>>48180852
Wikipedia states otherwise, but they don't link a source, so it may have been an improper translation/interpretation.
As they say it:
"Mozi views aesthetics as nearly useless. Unlike Confucius, he holds a distinctive repulsion to any development in ritual music and the fine arts. Mozi takes some whole chapters named "Against Music" (非樂) to discuss this. Though he mentions that he does enjoy and recognize what is pleasant, he sees them of no utilization in terms of governing, or of the benefit of common people. Instead, since development of music involves man's power, it reduces production of food; furthermore, appreciation of music results in less time for administrative works. This overdevelopment eventually results in shortage of food, as well as anarchism. This is because manpower will be diverted from agriculture and other fundamental works towards ostentations. Civilians will eventually imitate the ruler's lusts, making the situation worse."
Essentially: fine art is bad, because it takes a lot of skill and time, which could've been invested in effective government or agriculture.
>>48179820
If you heavily redifine what constitutes difficult terrain instead of impassable terrain, because wuxia jumping, and refluff the classes as martial arts styles, 4e works VERY well for Wuxia, arguably better than it works for Tolkienian fantasy.
>>48180956
I just realized that most of the developed world is extremely unethical according to Mohism.
>>48180956
I think Mo Di's philosophy has an equal number of holes in it as Confucianism, even if it's strongly appealing to a rational mind.
Both philosophies are concerned with finding the perfect method to artificially create competent rulers and governers through a codified education system of sorts.
I think this is an inherently flawed argument; while Mohist philosophy would certainly make people more inclined towards rational scientific thought it bears no relevence to analyzing the character and personality of a person, and an educated and rational shitty person will STILL be a shitty person and often a shitty ruler too.
I've noticed a recurring thing in history that skilled statesmen are found literally in every culture in equal numbers, so clearly there isn't a "one way" to do it correctly and how good a ruler or statesman a person is is dependent entirely on his character and temperament rather then some half-based philosophy designed to find the "winning formula" to the problem.
>>48180987
Yeah, Vancian casting and D&D magic in general is really really terrible for wuxia fluffwise unless you basically say "okay, so in my world kungfu works exactly like D&D magic".
It's not that kungfu can't do magical things, it's that the magical things someone can accomplish with exotic kungfu tend to only work in a very narrow fashion because they mastered a particular skill related to that magical thing.
Example; if a Wizard D&D wuxia character could cast Burning Hands, then if it was being true to proper wuxia themes then he could then cast ONLY fire-based spells and nothing else as the esoteric martial art he learned had to do with generating and manipulating fire. Each new "thing" he could do with magic would literally be an entirely new martial arts style, and for each one he knew the more powerful overall he would get in literally every other sense due to how kungfu knowledge works in wuxia.
>>48180990
It's that way for most philosophies.
Generally the more elaborate and detailed the philosophy is the less applicable it is in real-life situations because it relies on the entires world bending over backwards to accommodate your beliefs, because in real life there's a lot of situations philosophies just don't adequately cover due to the broad variety of things that can happen.
Source; my old philosophy professor in a moment of shocking honesty to his students.
>>48181154
>Vancian casting
4e doesn't use Vancian magic, it's one of the reason people who don't like it don't like it. PC's have "techniques" that they can use over and over, "techniques" that they can only use once in a while, and "techniques" that they only pull out as trump cards... you know, like Wuxia.
>It's not that kungfu can't do magical things, it's that the magical things someone can accomplish with exotic kungfu tend to only work in a very narrow fashion because they mastered a particular skill related to that magical thing.
Yeah... combat. Once again, the narrow focus on combat, and specifically what PC's can do in combat is another reason people who don't like 4e don't like 4e, but why it's good for Wuxia.
>Example; if a Wizard D&D wuxia character could cast Burning Hands, then if it was being true to proper wuxia themes then he could then cast ONLY fire-based spells and nothing else as the esoteric martial art he learned had to do with generating and manipulating fire.
Picking a single elemental type, and refluffing all your powers to that element, and in some cases even changing the elemental type is not at all uncommon in the world of refluffing 4e... like at all.
>>48181329
>>48181154
>>48180987
While I agree 4e can work, I'd still recommend >>48179893, as long as you've got a group who are prepared to put in the work to learn it. LotW is a rather arcane system, even without the godawful editing job in the core book. Still, I love it, it's my favourite RPG to date.
>>48181329
>Yeah... combat.
No actually, but your other point covers what I was taking about anyway.
I guess Healing Surges sort of reduces the problem of certain classes being too easy to kill for powerful martial arts practitioners too, so I see how it could work.
>>48179893
BEST GAME; WORST EDITING
EVER
>>48181422
It's predecessor, Weapons of the Gods, was actually even worse.
Thank Rebecca Borgstrom for that.
>>48181422
>>48181440
I have a softspot for Borgstrom/Moran games. Sure, they're nigh on incomprehensible, but once you get your head around their poetic metaphor and twisted sense of internal logic, they're really unique and beautiful bits of design.
>>48181448
>>48181448
The ripple calculations on this are off, but the rest of it is accurate. I think that's something they changed between the prerelease version and the published one.
>>48181453
She amuses me because she almost seems to be a walking exemplar of the stereotype that women who write fantasy fiction can only write in overwrought purple prose.
Except instead of using a three hundred words to describe a character in a bit of fiction she uses fifty to describe a bit of game rules she could describe using ten or less if she just got to the point already.
It's kind of weird to read and makes me laugh a bit.
>>48180313
Well I DO feel guilty. Thanks for that.
Dick.
>>48181422
As a fan of it, yes.
>>48181536
That's not really the problem, though. It has the right number of words or whatever, it's just no properly organized at all.
I've seen various games that you can always find a version of Japan and China.... But hardly anywhere else in that part of the world.
Anyone know of games that take place in some version of say.... Korea? Vietnam? Mongolia?
>>48180502
Well, yes, but it's a philosophy that rapidly began to permeate all layers of Chinese society, and has since gotten just as wrapped up in their mythology as all those aforementioned religions. The Jade Emperor and the Heavenly Bureacracy are often treated as being the ideals of Confucian leaders.
>>48180295
Came here to say this
Try Google next time, fuck face
>>48179820
>What movies, series and books would you recommend someone to immerse themselves in the genre?
As a ten years practitioner and teacher, I was actually surprised to findKung Fu Pandato have better martial arts than many others in genre fiction.
>>48182005
![ironfist-top[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/RARZ1dU.jpg "ironfist-top[1].jpg")
>>48179820
If you're okay with a modern setting, the Iron Fist series of comics (especially "The Immortal Iron Fist" by Ed Brubaker and Matt Fraction) is a lot of fun.
>>48182823
That movie is legitimately a fantastic Wuxia movie. The second one even moreso.
>>48183414
Punisher, what are you doing in an Iron Fist outfit?
>>48183461
It's a previous Iron Fist, who served in WWI and channels his Chi into his bullets to make them hit like cannonballs and do various other magical things.
>>48181536
She's vaguely self aware of the absurdity of her design style at least, and I can't help but love some of her setting writing for the mythology blends they provide.
>>48184154
Well, at least she knows.
OP, the Four Constables manhua is an excellent inspiration source for wuxia action and ridiculously convoluted villain plots and storylines.
>>48183751
>It's too anime REEEEEEE!!!!!!
I'm imagining a western where some cowboy learns kung fu and does what this Iron Fist does but naturally you'll have the people who'll say it's too anime and piss and shit themselves freaking out over it.
>>48185595
Orson Rand (the gun-fu Iron Fist) actually compares what he's doing to shooting arrows infused with his power (something a prior Iron Fist did), just in more modern context.
That said, the way Danny Rand's Iron Fist powers work on a metaphysical level is pretty different from actual wuxia (actually sort of the opposite of it in some ways) and it's basically ended up at this point being a form of magic that happens to be accompanied by kung-fu moves.
>>48185709
>>48179820
Blood and Steel for some good Wuxia. It's really good
>>48187157
Is there anyone running a LotW game that is looking for players? I've been trying to find a game for ages, but either no one has heard of the system or the group is full...
Bump
>>48187342
LotW games actively recruiting are rare, but they do happen. I've seen a couple in the #LotW channel on Sup/tg/, although there's been a bit of a drought recently.
>>48187157
>>48187168
Thanks for pointing this one out. Already starting volume 4 now.
Question: does China have any traditions pertaining to wandering monks/pilgrimmage? Most things that turn up for me are Japanese Zen monks and Yamabushi.
>>48190050
And now I've completely forgotten this thing exists.
>>48179820
>daringdoo
It's "derring–do"
>>48190074
What is this thing?
>>48190551
It's a monk's spade, or at least a more weaponized version of the original tool.
Travelling Buddhist monks were said to carry these. It was used as a spade to perform improptu burials, should they encounter a body; swung as a staff to fend off attackers; or scare off predators by threatening the animal's throat with the crescent.
>>48190606
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqeA18VgBS4
>>48185709
I get that, and I ever appreciate that. I was just making fun of the autist who get all butt hurt about everything that isn't just normal mcnormalson swinging a sword calling it anime as if it were a bad thing. I would love to have a character like the gun wielding Iron Fist but imagine the ass rage you'd see if you ever tried to put something like this in D&D
And there is The Dragon Poll, its based in Legend of Wulin but with some Cortex Plus throw in the mix and a better editor.
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/164898/The-Dragon-Pool
>>48186953
That was a great series.
>>48182823
can you go into more detail about this, what parts stand out to you as being good examples of martial arts?
>>48190744
How does Dragon Pool differ from Legends of the Wulin? Is the addition of the Cortex Plus system like a refinement of the original rules letter, or more like a complete overhaul?
Oh thank god there's a wuxia thread already.
Anyway, I just watchedKung Fu Panda trilogyand got hyped for the genre. I got that the Wulin system is the best but what I wanted to ask is:
What are the genre staples? What should I consider when making a setting?
My impression is that to make the world work,
1. I should forget about the common sense because Wuxia is basically a world of gimmick heroes doing gimmicky things
2. The character development is crucial for the plot
3. Each story has Its own main motif in the form of a particular weakness (for example, being unsure of my own strong or weak points, depending on a single particular technique). Ultimately, everything revolves about that
Thoughts, advice would be much appreciated
>>48192074
In essence, Wuxia is a violent soap opera, set in a society separate, but parallel to the lives of ordinary people. This shadow community is known as the Jianghu (Rivers and Lakes), and operates on different morals than the conventional society, placing special emphasis on strength, courage, honour and loyalty. The people in this world live in a tangled web of loyalties, rivalries and, grudge enemies. Also, they may not always act in their best interest, being driven by their larger-than-life emotions/desires and whatever their code of honour demands.
The intro paragraphs of Legends of the Wulin give a clear and concise description of common tropes and themes of the genre.
>>48193390
*grudges and enemies.
Phone posting.
>>48193390
>>48192074
I know tv tropes raises a lot of red flags here, but it also has a pretty decent description of the genre.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Wuxia
Does anyone else find the concept of the celestial bureaucracy really interesting? Especially the idea that it's possible to resign meaning they have to find another spirit or immortal to take over the position which raises a lot of questions: what's the application process like? what qualifications are needed to be, for instance, god of fire?
I feel like you could make a roleplaying game out of players being minor gods in the celestial bureaucracy trying to do their jobs, keep the emperor happy, and generally stop the world from going to shit.
Bump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC1tyEeLVpM
>>48195879
You've reminded me of an NPC follower in Jade Empire.
Jade Empire is Wuxia by way of pre-EA Bioware. Midway through the game, your party is joined by a Celestial Bureaucrat named Zin Bu, the Magical Abacus. Originaly, his job was to calculate the karmic consequences of the PC. PC does what PCs do, and he was demoted because he couldn't keep up with the workload you produce. Now he works as your personal vendor. He also lets slip that one of your party members has a whole department dedicated to calculating the consequences of his exploits.
>>48195879
I wish I had that screencap of that storytimed thread about the PCs all being minor gods in this kind of divine court drama that resulted in them trying to wage war against the major gods. The only thing everyone really had in common was that they died in the mortal realm, they respawned in the hall of immortals, and beyond that they basically picked a vague power like super strength or peerless martial skill or manipulating desire or something.
>>48196273
>Jade Empire
REMINDER OF THE BEST SIDEQUEST IN THE GAME
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HccNAt20LlQ
>>48196371
>I'm sorry, I have to let you go.
SUCH POETIC JUSTICE.
>>48196462
>"I'm sorry, I have to let you go."
>"You can't be the one to let Aishi the Mournful Blade walk free. That would cast undeserved suspicion on you, and *that* crime I will not commit."
>"Some things are stronger than anger, Spirit Monk. Love is one of them."
It's like I can feel my heart ahegaoing.
>>48196541
Maybe not as emotional satisfying, but I got a thing for emotional burials/peaceful passing on etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYNs8vqvwmQ
One final bump before bed.
>Play Age of Wushu for a few years off and on
>Come to realize that wuxia is best described as "the internet, but with kung fu"
Seriously. You know the kind of autism that people sometimes display online? Like if you post on a conventional registered forum and you're some newbie who disagrees with the King Ultradick who's been shitposting since 1998 with a post count in the millions, and now suddenly he's out for blood for this unimaginable slight against his honor?
Or when gankers will rub your face in shit by killing you over and over and over for no other reason than because they can?
Or when you'll randomly do a dungeon together with a guy, chat it up, and suddenly you're martial bros who hang out every day and support eachother through thick and thin?
It's almost unnerving how close the parallels are when I started thinking about them.
I typed that up so I could post something besides "bump"
>>48198726
I can dig that.
Does anyone actually have a game with a slot or two open. East Asian everything intrigues me and I always wanted to see how the Martial Brotherhoods of other cultures act when conflicting.
>>48198726
Great point, senpai!
Autism is autism - be it in the martial arts, or the internets, or anywhere else. The autistic fucks prey upon the noobs in their desperate attempts to one-up each other. It's a human thing, to be honest..
>>48182005
>Mongolia
Wind on the Steppes
>>48190606
Neat!
Practical, AND useful for some self defense. I like it.
>>48182005
Forgotten Realms/Kara-Tur has Korea and Mongolia, but that's D&D.
>>48198726
If the Jianghu is the internet a relatively closed off self governing society existing parallel to normal society
Then what would the Jianghu version of 4chan be
>>48200410
The Yun Clan.
Bump
>>48179820
I'm a classic casual scum as far as Wuxia is concerned, I've only really gotten into Louis Cha with Return of the Condor Heroes, The Heavenly Sword and Dragon Sabre Chronicles and a little of what I only know as Tian Long Ba Bu. And if Journey to the West counts as Wuxia to a certain degree, sure, that too. I've loved it since I was a child though, used to watch the Mandarin programmes all the time. It's more equivalent to comic book heroes in my opinion though.
>>48179820
A little off-topic and not very teeg but I was hoping someone interested in Wuxia might be able to link to source for Damon Albarn's Monkey: Journey to the West?
I'm desperate. Can't find anything.
Tell me this doesn't look amazing.
>>48179820
Well, this is useful.
I want to get into wuxia. Not just the basic trappings, I want to have first hand knowledge of the genre.
What books should I read? What series or films should I watch? I know about Louis Cha and his Condor Heroes series, but there must be more authors other than him.
So. What do I read/watch?
>>48205320
Oh! As I recall, Shui Hu Juan (Water Margin) is pretty deep in Wuxia. There there's what I mentioned in >>48204004
, and as a Chinese person I'm pretty happy to get behind Jade Empire too.
There's also a Singapore/Malaysian manga artist who created his own oc Wuxia series called The Celestial Zone that I was exposed to. He also adapted Return of the Condor Heroes to comic form.
>>48190050
>Question: does China have any traditions pertaining to wandering monks/pilgrimmage? Most things that turn up for me are Japanese Zen monks and Yamabushi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West
>>48181536
The amusing thing is that her most recent solo game, Chuubo, has a bunch of it basically written less in big prose and more like she was talking to the reader straight up. The entire thing feels like a conversation. It's circuitous not because she uses a lot of overwrought wording, but because it's written like she was talking right there, with examples and comments and stuff.
It makes it a nightmare to re-find rules, but it makes actually reading the book the first time a lot less heavy than a lot of other wordy systems.
I mean, compare to Exalted 3, which is also circuitous as fuck but IS overwrought and reading it feels like trudging through molasses.
>noble heroes from all social classes
>they fight evil, be it a local bully or corrupt governments
>Kung fu masters, monks, warriors, princesses, thieves, beggars, merchants, healers, craftsmen, priests, etc are all trappings of fantastic Zhongguo
>An ideal wuxia story has intricate relationships of honor, love, loyalty, and even hate between people
>Government officials will mostly be corrupt, lazy, incompetent, or unjust. Hence the need for Xia to solve problems with force, only with the code of chivalry holding them in check. They often must live as outlaws, righting wrongs wherever they go.
>There's probably gonna be an evil martial arts academy or teacher dedicated to pumping out assholes for various purposes
>Putting down very powerful enemies is tragic because the world has lost a very talented individual who made the poor choice to do evil
>Bros often become "sworn brothers" after going through deep shit together
>For some odd reason a baddie grabbing a girl by the wrist often magically turns her into a helpless crying damsel
>Edgy brooding heroes may sometimes kill an innocent in a fit of angst, cue more brooding
>Highly dangerous forbidden techniques often come at the price of using up insane deadly amounts of your own chi
>Loyalty is always tested, ALWAYS. Whether it's between a parent and a lover, or a friend vs social superior. Confucianism says its okay to kill yourself to escape choosing. Great drama fuel. Think Byakuya from bleach being caught between loyalty to his parents wishes and those of his wife.
>Bad girls nearly always turn good after getting thrashed by the hero and cured with chivalrous dick
>Betraying your master nearly always makes you the BBEG, you don't fuck with social piety in magical Asia
>Evil eunuchs, no more needs to be said
>The emperor is ALWAYS the good guy, but his advisors keep important shit from him which could be sorted out easily otherwise
>>48205440
>Lots of villains seek immortality for all the wrong reasons
>Cutting your hair (or refusing to cut it) has enormous importance
>Shounen tier training arcs where the hero learns the "super secret dangerous badass ultimate technique of destiny" in a week when it allegedly takes decades
>You have to master both body and mind to use "magic". Not in the book learnin western sense either.
>Old masters often become lonely due to their sheer level of skill. They might train the youngins to be their sparing partners. Evil masters may act out their genius loneliness by picking fights with some strong youth to train him into their "equal"
>Evil pupils are a good source of action too
>Wuxia is VERY idealistic and light hearted, take your game of shit elsewhere
>Tsunderes are everywhere, bonus points if they use fighting a hero as an excuse to get close to him
>Monsters are pretty much the pets of the gods left to go feral
>dragons are benevolent water gods and can play a role like LOTR eagles
>>48205350
Thanks!
>>48205440
Not precisely true about the Emperor.
If he's a later-era Dynasty (Song and after) he could be decent, but he's also equally likely to be portrayed as an incompetent with no real skill at ruling, especially where the Ming Dynasty is concerned.
For Emperor's and rulers of eras when China is fractured into multiple warring states, there's a REALLY high chance of one of more of them being martial badasses themselves, and an about equal chance of at least one being an incredible asshole too since basically the various kings and Emperorers in these periods were just warlords with more power than their peers.
>>48205444
>Wuxia is VERY idealistic and light hearted, take your game of shit elsewhere
More on this; it's not that there's no politics or social manipulation in wuxia, it's that usually there's next to no moral ambiguity about who is the bad guy and who is the good guy.
Since Chinese society is all about acting proper and the Wulin is all about acting proper or someone beats you the fuck up over it there's LOTS of convoluted social manipulation a going on in certain scenes where characters trade words like they trade blows, testing each other to and trying to get each other to back down.
It gets pretty ridiculous sometimes as they play these Death Note-estate word games with each other to get one person to reveal their weaknesses or secrets without revealing anything themselves or forcing themselves into a social corner.
Arguably this happens more then actual FIGHTS do in wuxia novels because frequently characters go up against characters of near-equal or even greater strength then themselves so they don't want to risk a direct confrontation.
>>48205444
>Shounen tier training arcs where the hero learns the "super secret dangerous badass ultimate technique of destiny" in a week when it allegedly takes decades
More elaboration;
The thing that's noticeably different from shounen stuff is how the training itself is percieved to work. In shounen very frequently the training is just shown to be intense physical labor and workouts and doing kungfu moves, but in wuxia doing JUST the physical part of kungfu means you're basically doing a third of the necessary work, because any idiot can just pump up his muscles over time and it's not even that hard to do it, otherwise there'd be millions of Xia all over the place instead if the relative scarcity of powerful ones you see.
Instead you need to work on your Qi cultivation (special breathing techniques) as much (or more, depending on the school) as your muscles, which looks to most folks like just sitting there and meditating. You also need to study hard and understand the philosophical theories and applications behind your school's techniques and forms.
Frequently when a character's talent in martial arts is remarked upon his intelligence is brought up; this is because a more intelligent person can understand the theories behind the style in question and extrapolate more uses out of them then a less clever man. VERY few wuxia heroes are shounen-style "idiot heroes" (with at least one notable exception), and most are highly intelligent and analytical people who are at worst somewhat naive about people's intentions or motivations rather then mule-headed dunces.
They sometimes seem moronic when it comes to the advances of the opposite sex, but to a large degree this is just Confucian ideals at work; you NEVER talk about sex or open relationships or approach the fairer sex until you're both married, and even then only in private and away from everyone else, including family. Even physical nearness is a fairly strong social taboo.
>>48205444
>Tsunderes are everywhere, bonus points if they use fighting a hero as an excuse to get close to him
More elaboration; tsundere is basically automatically the default female character archetype in wuxia.
There might be better behaved or more "proper" heroines, but these characters will only rarely ever get anywhere with the hero and frequently will instead fall in love with and marry side characters. This is mostly because Jin Yong's novels set the standard for wuxia back in the 60's and he clearly had a thing for that archetype; one notable protagonist primary love interest is basically a villain and starts manipulating him and enacting more and more schemes just as an excuse to spend more time around him.
>>48205440
>Highly dangerous forbidden techniques often come at the price of using up insane deadly amounts of your own chi
And some more elaboration because I woke up too fucking early today.
Rarely do "forbidden" techniques do the the sort of "I've used up too many Super Bars, my powers are drained!" thing you see in shounen; qi thematically isn't a recharging energy bar, and you get it back literally just by breathing.
Instead they frequently give you an edge by subjecting you to truly horrific training methods that warp your body out of whack, kind of like dangerously manipulating your own biochemistry to gain a physical advantage but at the cost of your overall health. EXTREMELY frequently doing this sort of thing can cost you your sanity because you just so badly imbalance your natural abilities that it affects your personality and mind.
Other stuff often has bizarre physical affects; a really common "evil" technique is giving a character a venomous touch, and it frequently involves repeatedly dosing themselves with dangerous toxins and animal poisons to gain and immunity and "naturally" turn their qi into one aligned with poisonous effects.
This is generally seen as a pretty sketchy thing to do in most wuxia (most poison touch Xia are morally ambiguous or outright evil) because the wrong kind of poisons can warp your mind, and besides that it's pretty fucking hardcore to train by having your arms bit by venomous snakes and spiders and centipedes over and over again, and anyone willing to go through with that sort of thing repeatedly often suggests at least a MILDLY unstable mindset.
>>48205444
>You have to master both body and mind to use "magic". Not in the book learnin western sense either.
Magic in wuxia tends to be the sole purview of explicitly supernatural beings such as deities and immortals (humans who ascended to immortality).
The stuff you can do with kungfu is pretty fantastical and in many ways is not very much different from Western-style sorcery, but there's hard limitations on it in most cases, the biggest one being that you do NOT get to extrapolate more superpowers from the ones you already learned.
If you can make fire from your hands by learning social kungfu, then you make fire from your hands; you can't use your knowledge of heat manipulation to do other crazy stuff like make ice by absorbing heat, you can't make force fields of fire (though blocking shit with your qi aura is pretty standard fare anyway), and so on and so forth. To learn an entirely new application of what seems like an identical power you need to learn an entirely new type of kungfu, which you will not necessarily have any access too.
Meanwhile magic seemingly can do ANYTHING compared to kungfu training. It's often less immediate sorts of stuff (more ritualistic in nature) but you can do things like change people into animals, lay complex curses that last generations, change the weather, see the future, and almost all such users of magic live forever as a matter or course.
Anyone can become a Xia with training and such, but even though humans CAN become Immortals it's not an easy thing to accomplish and seems to by default "remove" you from mortal affairs to some degree.
>>48205644
More on social stuff.
One of the biggest recurring things you'll see in wuxia (and one of the most hilarious you'll see) is what I like to fondly call Kung-Fu Dick Measuring.
Basically, if you can prove to a guy you've just met that your Kung-Fu Dick is bigger then his Kung-Fu Dick without even starting a fight then you look like a total badass and everyone is hugely impressed by your simultaneous show of skill and restraint.
This usually involves stuff like tests of impossible dexterity, or incredible feats of endurance or stamina, or even weirder shit like playing Go SUPER well or just kicking so much ass at flute playing that you cripple the other guy with your sick flute tunes.
To give a basic example; in one wuxia story a group of constables is coming to the location where a criminal act is suspected of being committed so they ask to question the head of the house. The household keeps giving them a runaround, and even tries bribing them with a huge chest of gold ingots.
When it becomes apparent the bribe won't work, one of them grabs to ingots and tosses them at a hero who easily catches them, discovering that with one hand he had melded the two ingots into one with a firm squeeze as he threw.
>"Imagine if that strength had been applied to two human heads!"
he says, "jokingly".
The hero is unimpressed and answers:
>"Gold is a soft and weak metal. The human skull is tough and strong. You cannot compare the two!"
He then tosses back the two ingots SO HARD that they fucking melt into slag on the way over to the guy as he catches them, burning the shit out of his hand.
And thus with who's Kung-Fu Dick is firmly established as being harder, they go and get the head of the household.
>>48205903
That's fucking amazing.
Say, when a player likes to be edgy and cruel to anything that wrongs him, what should be the most wuxia thing to do?
>Nothing because that's pretty normal
>Throw Masters at him
>Make him feared but that's basically It
>Spirits of the deceased give some kind of debuffing nighmares
He doesn't really kill for no reason but I fear he might be "too pragmatic" for this kind of game
>>48205735
>I hope qiánbèi will notice me this time.
>>48206010
>Make him feared but that's basically It
I have a perfect character example for this.
Cloud (one of the two main characters of Storm Riders) is a full-on antihero and tends to rather viciously kill anyone who insists on getting in his way even if in terms of personality he's not an especially bad person. Most Xia leave their foes hurt but alive, but Cloud tends to drop TONS of bodies wherever he goes.
This makes him famous in the series as a horrible villain because of just how many people he's killed over time, making him wanted by the "good" factions of the Wulin, the evil ones who want to avenge themselves upon him, the neutral ones who want revenge or just the fame for bringing down such a great villain, and even the secular world law enforcement because it's impossible to turn a blind eye to all the carnage he keeps causing wherever he goes.
His seemingly total lack of restraint when it comes to using force causes ENDLESS drama for him and drives much of the plot as he fosters tons and tons of grudges simply because he keeps killing goddamn near everyone he meets and therefore keeps creating grudges that affect him and the people he cares about in his life.
Give the player lots of the Ferocity Selfish Virtue to show how bloodthirsty he is when wrong and Revenge to show his tendency to kill people who piss him off, and then create TONS of entanglements (usually of the hostile sort) that keep messing up his life and causing drama; the amount of damage he does is perfect drama fodder as families of men he's killed, factions he's angered and law enforcement he's pisses off by his lack of discretion come back to complicate his life!
Have him no matter what good he does been seen as a villain by all but those who are closest to him thanks to how bloody his reputation becomes over time!
>>48206060
Getting the hero to NOTICE the heroine is not hard in wuxia. Japanese High School romance drama revolves around that because...well, if I'm being upfront about it, because Japanese culture encourages you to be the most boring and conformist person you could ever possibly accomplish most of the time.
Thus said romance interest has to make you notice him/her because you are NOT socially allowed to just go get his/her attention by standing out because standing out too much is rather discouraged even in high school.
In wuxia it tends to be rather like said tsundere desperately trying to get the hero to pay more attention to her as a woman and show affection as a love interest rather then a friend; the Friendzone Exist in Wuxia and it's nearly ALWAYS the man doing it to a girl that he thinks no sexual thoughts about because that would be impolite and not worthy of a gentleman until they're married.
>>48206162
Or because he respects her too much as the idea of a woman (or even a warrior, making the tsundere antics even more self defeating)
>>48206113
Thanks, WS
>>48205903
>Gold is a soft and weak metal. The human skull is tough and strong. You cannot compare the two!
He's right.Gold is much tougher.
>>48206173
Sometimes, yes.
A lot of it is just cultural stuff; if they took advantage of their interest in them before marriage then in most cases they'd be considered scumbags in classical Chinese culture.
It's not that it doesn't happen, but characters who do are frequently always portrayed as basically being the equivalent of rapists and are nearly always cast in a villainous light in many stories for even daring to show such casual non-marital interest in a woman.
One protagonist is notable for his rather flirty and charming dialogue, which makes him sort of an edgy rogue in wuxia (and classic Chinese) terms, and STILL his devotion to his primary love interest is so focused that it's basically the driving force of the entire storyline.
>>48206184
Happy to help!
>>48206187
It's a very clear indirect metaphor, if not a scientifically accurate one.
Basically he's saying that he can mess up a pair of inanimate gold objects, but actually trying to pull that shit on a human (namely, him) would be a VERY bad idea and he'd kick his ass all over the place for it.
>>48206231
Awesome stuff, Sage. While you're here, can you explain the "face" thing? What exactly is it and how does it work?
>>48206284
>the "face" thing?
As in 'to save face'?
>>48206316
Yeah, but it seems like there is a hell of a lot more going on n the stories, with "face" or whatever it is being fundamentally important and sometimes driving a lot of the actions of everyone. It's like honour and respect and maybe cultural values all wrapped up into one. I don't really get it myself. It's very hard to understand as someone that has grown up in a western society.
>>48205421
...Huh. Looking up Chuubo, apparently she got screwed on the kickstarter funds by Eos. Which is only more grim evidence that Legends of the Wulin is super dead.
>>48205708
The closest thing to the idiot hero is the simple, virtuous peasant, who isn't stupid but is uneducated, and learned practical lessons of virtue through hard work in his community, at least in my experience.
>>48206611
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)
>>48206284
>>48206316
>>48206611
"Face" is almost entirely a Japanese concept when Westerners are talking about Eastern culture because the concept of "On" (literally, Face) is much, MUCH more important there.
We're talking about the culture who's ruling martial class thought that showing any open affection to your family or children or spouse was a sign of weakness mind you; what people "thought" of you in samurai culture was extremely important.
But really, saving face is common in ALL cultures to some degree; it's really about not publicly embarrassing yourself and thus in theory devaluing your social value.
You know how in real life politicians who get into scandals or make choices that in the long run end up being stupid will seemingly do ANYTHINH to avoid openly admitting their mistakes? How they disseminate, twist words, say they meant something different, ignore questions, and flat-out lie just to avoid having to admit they fucked up, even just a little?
Fundamentally, that's saving face; doing whatever you can do to avoid being public embarrassment among your peers and underlings and subjects.
Chinese sense of face is a LOT different from Japanese; samurai were supposed to be stony bastions unfeeling of emotion or anything beyond loyalty and duty to their lord, but in China you could be openly emotional, laugh, smile, and treasure your family fine, you just had to be chill and stylish about it instead.
>>48208052
Face most often comes up in wuxia among the same sorts of people who care about face in Western society; important and ambitious people who care a lot about what everyone thinks because they like influence or what more of it for whatever reason.
A person worried about saving face in the Wulin would be someone who was extremely image-conscious about their sect, clan, faction, or school and thus would mostly choose to do things that benefitted them or made them look better/more important in the eyes of their peers.
It says something about the genre that the more obsessed with status and position a character is the more likely they are shown to be in a negative light.
In basically ALL of Jin Yong's classic wuxia novels the protagonists for one reason or another don't give a shit about face; Guo Jing is kind of a dunce but s extremely earnest, caring more about doing the right thing for the right reasons, Yang Guo is intelligent enough to understand it but literally could not care less about what anyone thinks about him (his entire storyline is defined by him doing the OPPOSITE of what everyone thinks he should do), Zhang Wuji's whole thing is being selfless and saintly to help as many people as possible and to repay the debts he accrues in his lifetime, and Linghu Chong is so carefree and chill that worrying about status is pretty much the opposite of his personality, and in his novel in particular pretty much EVERY character who is status-conscious is a venal hypocrite more concerned with power and influence then anything resembling human decency.
>>48208052
Also, it bears mentioning that face is so much more important in classical Japan then in some other cultures because if you embarassed yourself or your master too badly they might insist you painfully commit suicide to remove the shame you brought upon yourself and therefore themselves by proxy.
Everyone else just stands to become less socially impprtant or maybe loose their jobs depending on where and when we're talking about.
Bump
>>48206697
Again? what is it with her and getting absolutely fucked by anyone she works with to publish.
She really needs to get over her weeabosim and get the fuck out of china at least, she's getting scammed left and right there.
>>48208290
as someone who knows little to nothing about Wuxia but has an interest what stories would you consider 'required reading'?
>>48211764
watch Kung Fu Hustle
>>48211764
Kung-Fu Hustle (a comedy but actually filler with multiple classic Wuxia references), Iron Monkey, True Legend, and Flying Swords at Dragon Gate are excellent basic one-shot stories.
For a broader grasp of the genre, most famous wuxia novels have been adapted into many-episode TV drama shows several times, including Legend of the Condor Heroes, Return of the Condor Heroes, Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber, and Swordsman.
A lot of times they take liberties with the original novel plot (especially the new Swordsman series), but I actually find this tends to at least mildly improve them as it often spends time giving depth and motivation to characters who otherwise are purely villainous.
>>48212065
I do love Kung Fu Hustle. I've only seen, I think, Shaolin Soccer also from Stephen Chow but I do like what he does.
>>48209655
She just needs more natives who actually are on her side. You can't do business in China without a network.
>>48179820
I quite like Qin.
>>48214366
>>48213340
Related.
>>48214894
Corruption in politics and money literally seems to be a given in Chinese culture.
That's why they have so many wuxia stories that involve corrupt authority figures who are completely useless; historically speaking bribery, theft, and graft was the best way to get ahead.
People think OUR politicians and business environment is corrupt, but they have to be at least vaguely quiet about and then pass laws in congress on the down low, but in China they just up and go "here's a shitload of money at the beginning of our deal that we aren't going to say is basically for you to look the other way while we screw people, but that IS what it's there for" amongst powerful people literally in direct conversation rather then quietly in the fine print of contracts.
Actually, there's a lot of Mexican outlaw stories that kinda follow the same pattern come to think of it.
Probably for the same reasons too.
>>48179820
I'm going to run a LotW game soon to get familliar with the system. Can anyone recommend pre-written campaigns that are ready to go?
>>48216376
The only one I know of offhand is Burning Down Jian Kang in the Half-Burnt Manual. There might be a few more on the LoTW wiki, but I'm not sure.
>>48215275
I am sad you dropped Wulin Quest but I understand why you probably did it.
>>48180023
It sucks, doesn't it?
I'm always keeping an eye out for a game though
>>48216854Might bring it back for a bit for short, condensed storylines rather then overarching plots actually. The entire idea and point of thing was to introduce people to concepts common in wuxia, and Sky was designed to be an "outsider" to Wulin culture so the reader could learn about the Wulin at the same time he does. I'd have to actually think up interesting one-off storylines though, and make them flexible enough to fit a quest format.
>>48218285oneshot quests are perfectly fine, especially if you want to throw some Chinese drama in there and axe people left and right
more on point, I've been wanting to ask if there was if/what provision there was in Wulin for "fighting couples" in the sense that they are married and still continue to wander and practice together.
I have the suspicion that any story where two martial artists fall for each other will end either in their deaths or them settling down to an 'honest' life and ceasing to be the typical wandering warrior (if no less powerful)
>GURPS China doesn't have shit on wuxia
>Martial Arts only has a little bit
WulinSage, would you like to make some money?
>>48218585
That happens all the time actually.
Usually when two characters get finally married they BOTH settle down and raise kids, but sometimes you get paired husband and wife duos who wander the Wulin together doing what they always did.
Couples in wuxia rarely seem to die AFTER marriage and instead die BEFORE it as a way of pairing down the number of romantic interests the hero ends up having.
>>48218644
Asking someone "would they like to make some money" is rather like asking "would you like a slice of this delicious pizza" or "would you enjoy having your dick sucked by this smoking hot babe"; the answer is almost always a definitive "yes".
>>48218742
Oh, color me surprised then. I guess I had too much vague memory of crouching tiger hidden dragon on mind, which isn't really great Wushu anyways.
>>48218824
Nobody got married there, actually.
Everybody dies before they could.
>>48218840
yeah realized right after I posted.
Still, it's nice to hear that it's a thing in wulin. married battle couples are one of my favorite things in fiction, and they're frustratingly rare.
>>48218885
It's not TOO common in wuxia but I've noticed it happens there more then in other genres.
Jin Yong loved that it seems, as his first two protagonists spend most of the second book being a battle couple, though they don't actively wander the Wulin anymore and spend much of their time raising their children.
![Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.mkv_snapshot_01.50.29_[2016.07.10_21.10.56].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/qoCj7pM.jpg "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.mkv_snapshot_01.50.29_[2016.07.10_21.10.56].jpg")
>>48218824
>crouching tiger hidden dragon on mind, which isn't really great Wushu anyways.
I'll fucking gut you for disrespecting the memory of mai waifu and her tragic should've-been love story you heartless cur.
>>48219071
It's not a BAD wuxia story, but if everyone watches the movie expecting all wuxia to be like it they'll be pretty surprised when the subtle emotional stuff is pretty much nonexistent in most wuxia and is replaced by bombastic acts of passion and violence.
CTHD isn't even a particularly faithful adaption of the novel it was based off of, which originally totally lacked that stuff and was like any other wuxia.
A lot of the reasons CTHD was critically acclaimed and liked had more to do with the preferences of that specific director then anything about the story itself.
Basically the film tends to confuse and mislead a lot of people using it as the intro to the genre.
>>48214894
The steel industry is incredibly corrupt because it is related to one of the largest government expenditures - infrastructure. On top of that, real estate is the most significant way of private individuals investing their money, so it also has a ton of conmen because of that. What that anon should have done is get out of the fucking worst industry to do business in without the best connections (both business and political).
That being said >>48215275 also has a pretty clear picture of the situation, though much of that is blamed largely on Deng's (and more acutely Jiang's) cliques. Essentially Shanghai is seen as a den of corruption and cheats by most native Beijingers. Xi's anti-corruption campaign is challenging a lot of the public sector corruption at the national level and his statements about refocusing Beijing as purely a capitol city instead of having industry and business is largely to expel the "cheating businessman" type.
Corruption is everywhere, but there is also strong distaste for it. Sadly the practice can't be removed because it arises from simple social norms, like the notion that you have to bring a gift when visiting a friend's.
>>48181422
>>48181440
>>48181453
Is this an American thing, or something? I haven't had the same experience with LotW.
>>48218885
>married battle couples are one of my favorite things in fiction
I'm interested in this. Give me recommendations (doesn't have to be wuxia).
>>48190630
Zen Archer Gunslinger
>>48221144
Which part? The "best system" part or the "worst editing" part?
Any example of foreign characters appearing in wuxia, like pic related?
Also, I wish I was more familiar with Chinese musi,c so I could link some fitting actiony music, without continuing to draw from the most well known sources.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HKdX46Z1SU&feature=youtu.be
>>48224842
I think he means the "worst editing"
>>48224842
Heh. The worst editing part.
As someone who's run a LotW game for over a year now, here is a document listing the house rules we use. Don't feel obligated to use them all, but I find that they smooth things out quite a lot.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rqqOxL4yWqkHha28ffo7RGKBfONO1Ggj0zfB3PEVdzw/edit?usp=sharing
>>48224978
>>48225209
Man, if you didn't have a problem with the editing in that book, I'm jealous. I know several people who needed extensive time with those versed in the system to really figure out how everything works. And no, not everyone that I know who plays it is American.
Honestly, Secret Arts are the worst of the lot. Skills and kung fu are pretty straightforward, but Secret Arts (and loresheets in general) are the biggest hangup--as presented in the book.
>>48225288
It took a ton of work to master the system, mostly due to editing, to some extent due to design. It's worth every minute, though.
>>48225333
Oh, for certain. I really like the system. It just took FOREVER to get any good at it.
>>48225218
I wasn't aware of the existence of the Half-Burnt Manual before this.
Thank you for that.
I've been in a few of these threads before and the general consensus is that to play a European in LotW, the best justifications are that you're an Arthurian knight who got lost on his quest for the Holy Grail or you're
>>48224978
If I go the former route, what kung fu styles would he use? What factions would a lost grail-seeker find himself drawn towards?
>>48196273
>>48196371
is Jade Empire a good game? how wuxia-like is it? thinking about getting it
>>48224978
Yes there are, but foreign Western characters appear only rarely, and even then only in 19th and 20th wuxia where everything is less fantastical.
China just didn't historically have much contact with Westerners before then.
>>48227248
It's a REALLY fun game, but speaking objectively it's lacking certain elements of wuxia; there is no "Wulin" in the setting, and monsters and demons appear quite regularly throughout the storyline. Different martial arts styles exist, but ultimately it's like buying different weapons in in other action RPG's; you don't have to learn the forms and moves from esoteric masters and secret manuals and there's little to no mystery or mysticsm around the styles themselves, but they teach you all the moves at once and it has different stats from the other "weapons" (styles), and the storyline is more xianxia then wuxia: demons, ghosts, gods, immortals, world-threatening conspiracies, etc.
That said it's BRILLIANT for character inspiration for LotW and it has pretty much every wuxia character archetype under the sun somewhere in it, and one party member is even a whole reference to Classical Chinese literature.
>>48227428
Also, it's got one of the best-foreshadowed plot twists I've ever seen in videogames that STILL tends to catch people totally off-guard.
>>48227428
IIRC, there are at least 2 party members that are lifted directly from the Water Margin, one being pic related and another being that fellow with a staff that you meet in the swamp.
>>48227428
>>48227478
>>48227498
All right thanks!
>>48227498
Sagacious Zu, aka "Every Character Robin Atkin Dowins Has Every Voiced Ever", as parodied by the joke reel after the end credits.
>>48179820
>What system do you prefer?
Tianxia.
>Have you ever run a Wuxia campaign, how dit it go?
I had a pretty long campaing about players being heroic rebels, fighting with evil empire. They started from bottom up, defeated many adversaries, built their own army and tried to destroy empire. They failed at that, but they managed to kill evil emperor and imprison his spirit so that he wouldn't reincarnate in his familty again. Empire become a lot less evil after that, and demon worshipping was forbidden. Most of PCs died in the last battle, though; whose who survived were fugitives for the rest of their lives (expect for Taoist monk, who became immortal saint and eventually Ascended).
>Buddhism, Daoism, Confusianism, or one of the many different folk beliefs?
I had all of them at once. Religious war between buddhists and taoists was pretty important plot point.
>>48227642
>Tianxia.
BRB, googling that shit.
>>48227703
It is basically collection of subsystems for Fate Core, made to play wuxia campaigns. Works like charm.
>>48227758
It's a nice rules light Wuxia system. I found the combat to be a bit lacking, but that's a general problem with all Fate based systems, and it is kinda unfair on Tianxia, since I'm comparing it to LotW.
>>48227777
Well, combat was important part of my campaign, but not the end of it. Some really important encounters were solved peacefully; for example, one feudal lord engaged my party in the musical contest, and it wasn't just the simple dice contest; players had to come up with entire spectacle and won.
>>48227758
do you have the PDF to post? Fate is my thing and I'd love to see what they do with it for wuxia.
>>48227777
check this out. It's a Fate Module that my group has taken bits and pieces from to improve the fate combat system.
>>48227859
PDF is too big, so just a link then: http://rgho.st/8qJrchwGf
>>48227163
>default setting of LotW is the early Jin dynasty, which was 265-420 AD
>King Arthur (or at least, the guy who inspired him) was thought to have lived in the late 400s, early 500s
Fuck. So much for that idea.
>>48228117
Wikipedia says that Lucius Artorius Castus was at least active between half of the 2nd century AD and early 3rd century AD, rather than 400-500 AD, just before the Jin Dynasty began. Also, LotW's setting is not actualy real-world China, but a very close approximation, so you've got some leeway.
>>48228117
I feel the need to note that the Shaolin Temple as we currently know it (the Little Forest Sect in the books) was NOT the storied edifice of legend in the Jin Dynasty that it is today or in later dynasties.
In fact it wouldn't even be BUILT until the late 6th century, close to 200-odd years AFTER the supposed setting of LotW.
Don't take accurate history too seriously because wuxia sure as shit never does.
>>48228407
To be more specific; the Shaolin Sect dates back to the late 5th century by most estimates, but the temple itself took much longer to build and in the time of the Jin Dynasty was pretty new, like a couple of decades old at the very oldest.
>>48228407
>>48228488
Man Sage, how do you KNOW all this stuff anyway?
>>48228706
I don't know if you've noticed Friend Anon, but knowing random minutiae of various cultures and historical anecdotes is kind of my whole thing.
Hell, once I storytimed all of the Usagi Yojimbo comic book on /co/ and included on every other post detailed bits of history and cultural information about the origins of various customs and shit from Japan of the time period the comic roughly takes place in.
Clearly I can't help myself at this point.
>>48228759
Your value knows no bound!
>>48228407
>>48228488
Well, if the official setting fudges 200 years, surely I'm allowed to as well.
>>48228402
I'm not sure who this Artorius fellow is (and am currently looking him up), but my understanding is that the strongest historical basis for King Arthur was a warrior-king who repelled Saxon invaders that came to Britain in the wake of Rome's collapse. While we could debate who was the strongest historical basis, pretty much of depiction of King Arthur (including ones that inaccurately suggest he lived in the medieval era) portray him as a post-Roman figure.
>>48228759
Are you looking for an apprentice?
>>48228799
I don't know about "value" but if nothing else I'm pretty good at small talk.
>>48228822
Sure, but you gotta run up a thousand steps carrying a huge stick with a heavy bucket of water on each end before you can call me Sifu.
Maybe make me me some xiǎolóngbāo on top of it or something, I dunno.
>>48228759
This reminds me, I should get back to doing more storytiming for our LotW Nanoha game.
Mister Sage sir? Where would one start if they wanted to write Wuxia-inspired stories? What concepts would they have to understand about the genre?
>>48229565
>Mister Sage sir?
Ya don't need to call me that.
>Where would one start if they wanted to write Wuxia-inspired stories? What concepts would they have to understand about the genre?
There's a lot of good advice right here in this very thread as a point of fact and it's good enough guidelines to start writing your own stuff at any point, really.
If you need more direct source inspiration, go watch some wuxia TV shows such as Legend of the Condor Heroes and Swordsman, since they are slightly modernized adaptions of some of the most famous wuxia stories ever; there's a LOT of great wuxia TV shows and you can find a crapload of them on YouTube.
Beyond that, writing is like everything and practice really DOES make perfect. Or you know. Relatively perfect.
Every time I run WHQ I keep finding heavy flaws in my writing such as difficulty giving quest players the ability to choose between different actions in combat while still retaining a coherent fight narrative and making the coregraphy of the battle interesting to read about, which is why I offer most of my player's choices in dialogue and what information I give out I guess.
>>48229252
Yesssssss
>>48229252
Please do, I've been wondering what's happening there.
>>48227478
That twist is fantastic. They hammer it so hard and I still never realized it.
>>48227428
Kinda late, but what about surrounding nations? Mongolia, India and Japan for instance.
Blood and Steel's got a prominent Japanese character (not the main character), but it's also Japanese manga, so it doesn't really count.
I don't know how much you know about Sherlock Holmes, WS, but my GM is having a bit of trouble wrapping his head around how to do a Wuxia mystery. So, if you had to take the Adventures of Sherlock Holmes and turn it into a Wuxia series, what changes to it would you implement (if any) other than setting it in China and adding more* kung-fu?
Holmes seems like he would already have
>>48205644
>It gets pretty ridiculous sometimes as they play these Death Note-estate word games with each other to get one person to reveal their weaknesses or secrets without revealing anything themselves or forcing themselves into a social corner.
and possibly
>>48205903
>One of the biggest recurring things you'll see in wuxia (and one of the most hilarious you'll see) is what I like to fondly call Kung-Fu Dick Measuring.
>Basically, if you can prove to a guy you've just met that your Kung-Fu Dick is bigger then his Kung-Fu Dick without even starting a fight then you look like a total badass and everyone is hugely impressed by your simultaneous show of skill and restraint.
>This usually involves stuff like tests of impossible dexterity, or incredible feats of endurance or stamina, or even weirder shit like playing Go SUPER well or just kicking so much ass at flute playing that you cripple the other guy with your sick flute tunes.
down pat already.
*Holmes did already practice a western adaptation of eastern martial arts which he called 'Baritsu' (probably a typo of 'Bartitsu')
>>48230713
Watch The Detective Dee movies.
>>48230555"Even the flaws."
>>48230691
Characters from countries and cultures NEAR China appear so regularly that to me it almost seems like you gotta have one per wuxia story at LEAST.
Mongols, Khitai, Jurchen, Miao (people in the areas near southern China, which only fully came under Chinese rule in the 18th century and held onto a very different culture for ages), Tibetans, Indians, Centeral Asians like Azerbaijan nomads and even Persians all make appearances in various wuxia.
Unfortunately in classic stuff they tend to be treated like savages or barbarians, not the least of which is because the words for foreigners for ages literally translated as "[Direction They Come From In Relation to Central Plains] Barbarians".
Persians tend to get a better deal in wuxia; the nearby tribal and nomadic groups even if they had sophisticated cultures often couldn't form lasting or stable nations (especially not compared to ones like the Han or Tang or Ming) so they were always looked down upon, but Persians had a relatively stable culture and were excellent trading partners besides so they were kind of thought of as their friendliest and most sophisticated neighbors, enough so that in many parts of China since the 12th century there was a significant number of Muslims in the southern areas of China and the "Ma" surname (the Mandarin was of saying Muhummad) was not uncommon at all.
>>48230713
Actually this has been done before >>48230744 with the adventure of Dee Renjie, or simply "Detective/Judge Dee" in the west, a famous Tang Dynasty judge, constable and statesman who actually existed and who's life has been greatly romanticized.
His more fantastic stories are honestly much more insane then Holmes stuff, but still fun mysteries.
In addition the Four Constables (also just called The Four in the recent movie) features four Schoolbrothers in Song Dynasty-era China who go around doing justice on the evil doers of the Wulin for their brilliant sifu Master Zhuge.
Each of the four has a special skill (Iron Hands had superhuman strength and the greatest internal energy, Lifetaker had the greatest running speed and Lightfoot skills, Coldblood had the best senses and the swiftest sword, and Emotionless was a cripple but an incredible genius and used hidden weapons skills in his pimp-was wheelchair) and EVERY story they're in is a fantastical wudunit as they unravel threats to the Song Dynasty.
>>48230713
Also, I know plenty about Holmes.
I have all Doyle's collected stories about him in one of those Barnes and Noble leather bound Classics editions because I got tired of leafing through collections of individual stories I have of his.
Has anyone here watched Thunderbolt Fantasy? It feels like wuxia to me, but I know very little about the genre.
>>48231446
>Thunderbolt Fantasy
Never heard of it.
>Taiwanese-Japanese Period Drama
Okay, there's already a good seventy percent chance of this being wuxia to some degree.
>Two guardians of a clan guarding a sacred weapon fight a rival clan and meet a mysterious wandering swordsman.
This sounds pretty goddamn wuxia to me so far.
>Gen Urobuchi writes it
Holy shit WHAT
>
>>48231562
Huh.
Yeah, this looks pretty hardcore wuxia.
But you know. With puppets.
>>48231586
Is it bad that I totally want to see them fight the cast of Team America: World Police?
>>48231601
That was literally the first thing I thought of.
I wonder how you say "SURPRISE COCKFAGS!" in Mandarin?
>>48231105
>wudunit
>>48231660
It doesn't matter, since Team America would never speak anything except American. They'd have to find some way to express it in charades and/or gunfire.
>>48231723
> They'd have to find some way to express it in gunfire.
Isn't that how you speak american?
>>48231730
Texan, actually.Or American Law Enforcement apparently, heyoooo.....But seriously though. Not funny.
>>48231807
Not really, no. You have failed in your attempt.
>>48180852
>Instead he believed leaders should have a strong knowledge of practical sciences to make better informed decisions about matters of state for more efficient governing rather then waste time with literature and poetry.
I was going to ask why Confucianism won out of Mohism but then I realized why.
Knowing poetry and literature allows any dumbass son of a wealthy bureaucrat pass exams, while practical science would put an extreme strain on the elite and any potential worthless children.
>>48232495
It also allows anyone else who can study to do it, and for many city-dwellers it was a common means to attempt social advancement.
But the actual answer is "the guys who likes Confucianism were better at killing people and taking their shit then Mohists were and had more friends and influence".
>>48232555
Said guy in question was Qin Shi Huangdi, and he was pretty happy to butcher the shit out of people when annoyed him what got his attention.
He supported Confucianism (sort of, his real philosophy was much more Legalist in nature) over Mohism because Confucianism is all about proper hierarchies and knowing your place whereas Mohism is about basing hierarchies only on competence.
Guess which version favors psychopathic paranoid elder statesmen?
>>48181422
This.
I enjoyed it alot, but my group did not. Like so much other shit I was into more things they wern't.
The people who like Wuxia can't into rules and the ones who can into rules don't into Wuxia. Same with L5R and samurai flicks, Feng Shui. Pretty much anything thats not bog standard fanasy garbage.
feelsbadman
So hey, would /tg/ be willing to give a loresheet I wrote up a look? It's about basically being eaten by corrupt chi; not quite to the point of being Baneful, but definitely a step in that direction.
http://pastebin.com/eUgbNiaw
>>48232618
There's other aspects to it too; Mohists were valued because of their siege warfare skills, and with the nation unified there no longer was a need for it.
Mohists also were strongly opposed to war of any kind, and with the wars over that was kind of a redundant thing.
Their extremely dense reading of knowledge in sciences and mathematics could only really he understood by a very select few, especially as the new Emperor kept killing scholars who annoyed him and unified the language into Mandarin today and made it harder to read unaltered texts which were still filled with dense boring scientific language.
All that was really left graspable by the common man was the knowledge that Mohists though art and poetry was frivolous and stupid, which was kind of a huge downer for most people and wasn't immediately appealing to Confucian's flowery language and emphasis on art and poetry and the romantic mysticism of Daoist thought had broader appeal to most folks.
>>48232649
This is not always true and it just sounds like you have a shitty group.
Unfortunately this is all too common in our hobby, for which I am very sorry.
>>48230994
>Persians tend to get a better deal in wuxia; the nearby tribal and nomadic groups even if they had sophisticated cultures often couldn't form lasting or stable nations (especially not compared to ones like the Han or Tang or Ming) so they were always looked down upon, but Persians had a relatively stable culture and were excellent trading partners besides so they were kind of thought of as their friendliest and most sophisticated neighbors, enough so that in many parts of China since the 12th century there was a significant number of Muslims in the southern areas of China and the "Ma" surname (the Mandarin was of saying Muhummad) was not uncommon at all.
Huh, thats super interesting. Any examples of Persians rising to prominence within China?
I don't know if its just because I'm more familiar with the modern Wuxia movies, but they just kind of seem to reek of overt nationalismyeah I'm saying this as an american.
Hmm I'm trying to think of how to express this. Are there stories of moral/heroic foreigners teaming up with locals to defeat corrupt officials? I get the impression that the uh Chinese-ness takes precedence over the usually espoused heroic virtues.
Like social class seems like a barrier that can be overcome or ignored (at least temporarily) for a heroic narrative, but there seems to be no heroic foreign characters.
I'm just thinking even in sterotypical Western action flicks where theres a token minority character, while there almost always is jingoism present they measure up even if they're portrayed as a sidekick or in a buddy cop movie as a secondary protag.
I know I'm rambling a bit, just wanted to try and get the idea out and I'm too fucking tired to try and clean up my thoughts for a 4chan post.
>>48231178
Hey, I have the exact same book. It's actually the first Holmes book I'd ever owned.
>>48230484
>>48230514
Right on. Watch the catalog in the next couple days. When I feel less like shit I'll work on collating more of it. There's a year and change of game time to get through since IIRC when I ended the last storytime it wasn't quite up to "present."
>>48232851
Hmm now that I'm thinking about it more. I guess I'm thinking about how in quite a few movies they seem to underscore the province/region the characters are from. Usually a North/South split and with post HK going back to China era films, I interpreted it as a subtle propaganda move. The messages seemed overt compared to earlier films (that I'm familiar with). Perhaps the nuances of the character relations based on region might have been implied and I just didn't notice since I don't know shit about China. I could see an unexplained Chicago/New York tension being missed by a foreigner.
I was just thinking about kind of analogous to like (particularly) 80's action movies where they really pushed the white/black friendship lines. Which I could also see from an outside perspective as a PC/propaganda piece.
I dunno I'm probably just reading into shit too much. Just seems like foreigners don't get much play in Chinese flicks and since you mentioned there was some historical basis, and I just havn't seem those films/books it made me think why those particular stories wern't more prominent when coming to this side of the pond.
Is the Yun Clan in LOTW supposed to be Mongolian? I'm not 100% sure but I've been working on the assumption that they are.
>>48232702
That's a lot of corrupt cultivation, compared to what is usually available.
whoever follows that style will be a veritable fountain of qi
>>48233057
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongols#History
tldr basically yes
>>48232851
>>48233011
White American here.
Who cares? They're Chinese stories for Chinese people. Why shouldn't they glorify their own culture? Good for them, I say. If the foreign barbarians want more attention they should make their own damn stories.
This is the final fight for your party. How fucked are you?
How much work should I expect to do if I want to run LotW in a different setting?
I know I'll need to write my own loresheets, but how many should I plan on needing?
>>48233552
Ask your players what they'd like to be connected to before you make loresheets. It will save you a lot of time and help you make sure that all groups they want have a loresheet.
>>48233270
If only there was some system based on medieval Europe, for example...
>>48233552
>>48233592
Alternatively, let them make their loresheets up as you all go; just lay down the law that anything on them has to have your stamp of approval.
>>48233552
You should write a loresheet for every significant Thing in your game.
>There's this really super awesome capital city!
Loresheet
>There's this clan whose exploits and prowess are known far and wide!
Loresheet
>There's a religion that has a huge following that has a lot of social influence
Loresheet
>There's this faction of-
LORESHEET
>>48233592
>>48233712
No, don't listen to these fags, they're gay.
Make a loresheet for every significant Thing in your game. It doesn't have to be especially complex, and most things won't require much more than ripping off the pre existing loresheets. Invite your players to invent their own fluff and if it's significant enough, write a Loresheet for it. But GMing means inventing a world for players to attach themselves to, not asking players to make up your world for you.
Last time I played LOTW it was set in 20's era Hong Kong ala Fist of the Blue Sky
I ended up playing a wealthy British aristocrat who basically ended up being Eagle from Street Fight crossed with Alex Louis Armstrong from Full Metal Alchemist
>>48232851
>Huh, thats super interesting. Any examples of Persians rising to prominence within China?
Not really. Foreigners are guest stars at best, though Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber actually suggests that Persia has it's OWN Wulin outside of China completely unrelated to it.
The film Huo Yuanjia (Fearless in the US) has a Japanese martial arts master who ends up respecting the main character greatly and clearly becomes offended and angry when his Imperial Japanese bosses tell him to kill him unfairly.
>I don't know if its just because I'm more familiar with the modern Wuxia movies, but they just kind of seem to reek of overt nationalism
Because they do. Communism is a hell of a drug. So is ethnocentrism.
>Are there stories of moral/heroic foreigners teaming up with locals to defeat corrupt officials?
In Duel to the Death (which is fucking INSANE BTW) one of the two leads is a badass samurai who ends up belong the Han Chinese swordsman hero fight off a plot between corrupt Chinese officials and his own evil Shogunate lord.
The samurai at first is portrayed among his friends as friendly and nice, but after he goes to Japan he becomes harsh and stoic as he realizes the honor of his school and country are riding on his victory, even if he greatly respects his opponent and doesn't wish to kill him.
Continued
>>48232851
>I get the impression that the uh Chinese-ness takes precedence over the usually espoused heroic virtues.
It kinda does, really.
The Wulin is a place where the old rules do not apply, but these stories are WRITTEN in the real world by people who are raised usually according to fairly conservative values in a country that literally checks doves assholes for bombs when they release them to majestically fly over a city on national parades and actively attempts to demonize anyone who is offending it.
The film Hero at the end basically goes about and makes not-so-subtle inferences that being a conquering madman like Qin Shi Huangdi (who is a prominent character in the film) is okay as long as you're just doing to unify the country, which could easily be taken as a way of propping up the PROC.
Jet Li actually said after that film he was going to do many more "Kung fu epics" but still did regular action movies, likely because he himself felt the political message that always ends up being driven by them somewhat distasteful.
What's interesting is that Jin Yong's novels (the LotR books of Wuxia more or less) could be read as a deconstructive parody of MANY Chinese values, enough so that it's probably not a coincidence.
Smiling Proud Wanderer (Swordsman in the TV and film version) in particular seems to basically be harsh criticism of Maoist Communism and how it promises the world to everyone and then proceeds to act like just another group of assholes.
>>48232925
>Hey, I have the exact same book. It's actually the first Holmes book I'd ever owned.
Good on you.
Your first Holmes being ALL the Holmes is not a bad thing.
>>48233011
No, the North/South thing is DEFINITELY there. The southern coastal regions often give Bejing grief because they definitely became more prominent when western trade kicked it, and while they're still pretty ethnocentric they're much LESS so then the rest of China.
Hong Kong in particular is basically it's own country with it's own values (hence those protests earlier last year); it mostly doesn't even speak Mandarin (Cantonese) and there's a significant number of English speakers due to it's local history.
Taiwan is even MORE different considering it's completely separate relationship with other countries and it's political history with the PROC.
It's important to remember that the Chinese-speaking region is fucking HUGE just like America is, and something like 2/3rds of modern China DON'T want to be part of modern China (Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Xianjiang), and the dominant Han Chinese culture really just stems from the Central Plains region, a relatively small area compared to the rest of the country.
>>48233057
They're Xiongnu nomads...so yes, basically.
The Mongols were basically a single representative tribe that unified a bunch of different ethnic tribes with similar values (overwhelming manliness, greater sexual freedoms to women, horse riding and archery, Khans instead of Kings) into one heading; you had the Jurchen, the Khitain, the Liao and so on and so forth.
The Xiongnu inhabited the Western Regions (the area around modern Xianjiang), which basically was it's own country for longer then it hasn't been and is a frequent source of "mysterious/exotic foreigner characters" in wuxia
>>48233011
>North/South split
Exists in real life but there's no pan north/south identity.
Someone from Shanghai wouldn't identify with Han Chinese from Hainan or Yunnan.
>>48235485
Kinda how most people from say.....Texas or New York or Florida might not identify with folks from where I live in the Pacific Northwest.
There is supposedly a pan-American identity, except whenever I've visited elsewhere here what that identity IS seems to be wildly different and always boils down to "freedom", a meaningless word that can be used to invoke anything at all and seems to in this case mean "the identity to be allowed to be a completely different culture with completely different values from people in other parts of the country".
>>48234887
I think a game set around WWII era Shanghai would be awesome.
You could have totally-not-Guile-from-SF fighting with his Flying Tiger style.
>>48236120
>Sage Info Post in 3....2....1...
In real life the 1920's/30's is a common period setting for wuxia drama, right up there with the any of the Song, Ming, and late Qin Dynasties.
Generally wuxia tends to have stuff taking place in "turbulent" eras of Chinese history so the imperial government can be as completely useless as it's always implied as being in most wuxia, and the early 20th Century was a VERY turbulent time period indeed.
Shanghai itself was insane patchwork of districts and cultures with so many different laws that rebels and criminal syndicates operating there was the NORM and not the exception.
It had a film industry rising there that slowly began to rival Hollywood's at the time, and people from all over the world with lots of different styles of thought came there to partake in it's insane free-for-all society where the rules were literally whatever you could get away with, and it was so extravagant and decadent that it was sometimes called "the Paris of the East" for it's culturally dynamic perspective.
It was also less charitably called "the Whore of the Orient", and one witty Christian missionary once said of it that "If God allows Shanghai to endure, He'll owe Sodom and Gomorrah an apology."
A lot of crazy shit went down there, but the era ended when Mao Zedong took over China because the Communists always saw Shanghai as literally the perfect example of the culture they were trying to prevent and avoid.
>>48235546
Regional Han identities boils down to x group is quintessentially Han or x group better represents the ancients.
This kind of chauvinist behavior seems to be more common in the deep south i.e. Cantonese.
>>48236120
The game was pretty sweet the main plot line was taking out a notorious group of opium smugglers
The group was pretty divided between Chinese and Britishthe relationship between the two nations occupying the same territory was a central theme to the gamewe had
A Former Gangster who wanted revenge
Your classic Wandering Martial Artistthink Donny Yen in Iron Monkey
A British Officer tasked with investigating the smugglersand corruption of the local officials
And my character a Rich Idiot With Nothing Better To Doand a vested interest in a shipping company that the gangs were using to smuggle the product
.....*sigh*
Okay. Fine. It's happening. Spent too much time on this thread to not do it anyway. Might as well.I'll start a new chapter in Wulin Hero Quest tomorrow.
>>48179893
>Decent dice mechanic
>Zero character customization
>Combat takes years
Why does everyone suck this game's dick? It's mediocre at best.
>>48236603
>Zero character customization
What? The game literally just tosses you points to spend on whatever you want.
>>48236573
Don't get our hopes up Sage
You said you would run Superhero Quest again the day after the reboot but its been months
Or what about Rokugan Quest
I understand why the gaps is posting but make sure you have the time before you make promises
>>48236675
I believe he means how you are limited to the different Internal and External Styles.
>>48236703
Short version; I suck at finding time, and suck even more at drawn-out stories.
It's also hard as hell to find time an energy to care about some quest that all of 8 people get involved in, while for some reason WHQ gets so much attention that the pressure on me is crazy.
In addition, it's somehow easier for me to write about Sky and his various misadventures, probably because the genre is a strong favorite of mine and I created a fairly diverse cast of characters before the game even started to draw from. Sky himself is also REALLY easy to insert into any number of wuxia style plots due to his personality and the overall point of his character.
Finally, I'll fully admit that my ambitions exceed my grasp all too often. I've been told I need to focus on my short-term game; I LOVE heavy foreshadowing and big plot payoffs, but frankly lack the skill to guide the storyline in the right direction and need to focus more on "one and done" stories that are self-condensed and have their own beginning and conclusion.
So I'm going to try and work on that with this next one; a one-shot story that isn't some epic overarching narrative and is just a single storyline.
>>48236709
Possibly, yes. On the other hand, the book expressly has a section on how to make new externals/internals.
Does remind me that I should get back to work on the homebrew I'm doing. I'm not a huge fan of internals that just apply a flat penalty to the opposition (As I feel like they work too well with the ability to stack with boosting yourself) so I'm working on a water style that's got it's own flavor (So it's not just a variant of the Water Sutra) but also provides plenty of ice attacks.
I'm going for a very mobile, sudden internal patterned off a Blizzard.
>>48236909
>SKY FROST FIST!
>>48196371
>I wish I had that screencap of that storytimed thread about the PCs all being minor gods in this kind of divine court drama that resulted in them trying to wage war against the major gods. The only thing everyone really had in common was that they died in the mortal realm, they respawned in the hall of immortals, and beyond that they basically picked a vague power like super strength or peerless martial skill or manipulating desire or something.
I remember that one! Gimme a sec for archive thrawl
There it is
http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/47753978/#47761520
The assembler somehow made it balloon the fuck out in size tho so I'm not reupping it for the thread.
http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/46315954/#46316000
Here's the post chain with originals.
>>48206113
Huh. that's a curious contrast to xianxia novels I read a lot.
In them, when you somehow pissed off the Assholes Clan (aka every clan), they won't let this shit go. They will constantly keep trying to fuck you over so killing their shit doesn't matter: they are already trying to kill you.
The only way out is /complete overkill/. Just totally annihilate them.
And everybody else sees it like proper procedure.
Proverb "that's like letting a wounded tiger/viper back into the woods" is applied constantly. Both by the clan AND the hero.
>>48237411
alternatively, more easily readable on 1d4chan
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Desirebro%27s_Tale
>>48237582
It depends on what works you're reading, really.
Technically ones that closely follow blood feuds with LOTS of goons to throw at either side end up covered in bodies they drop over the storyline, but a lot really mostly have just baker characters that the author doesn't want to kill off too quickly or anticlimactically.
Technically in Wulin society you ARE within your rights to take a blood feud as far as you can possibly get away with, but a lot of youxia think of themselves as Heroes (and indeed despite these feuds often both parties follow the Code of Xia) and therefore balk at killing very young children and unarmed women who cannot defend themselves...which of course just perpetuates the violence cycle in question usually.
A really common thing in wuxia is when a long-time rival is killed and he has a family or child, you take the widow and child into your own care as a way of taking responsibility for the difficulties you caused in their life by loss of the husband that provided for them.
This is almost always the cause of a shitload of drama when that kid grows up because otherwise shit would be boring, but the idea is you end the dispute by making nice with the family and raising his kid as your own alongside your own to fully end the feud.
>>48237802
>but a lot really mostly have just baker characters
NAMED characters, stupid phone.
>>48237676
The heck is this from?
>>48236777
>and suck even more at drawn-out stories.
Given you constantly professing this, setting SHQ reboot at the start of Silver Storm may not have been the best move.
Just do them bite sized villain of the week perhaps? With threads here and there at most.
>>48237829
Looks like a tuhu.
