Imperium of Mary Sues more like it. Which SF or fantasy setting has the most down to earth humans? Not complete push overs but not some special ''le we always endure xD'' snowflakes either.
>>48168689
Guardians of the Galaxy.
Traveller
>>48168689
Space Marines are the only "humans" in 40k that get any kind of positive characterization. Every other Imperium faction just exists to eat shit.
>>48168864
>What is Eisenhorn
>What are Imperial Guard
Summertime Autists are worst autists
>>48169052
Eisenhorn more or less ate shit, though it was a good series.
IG can be okay in their own books but put them in the mainstream books (read: next to Space Marines) and they become pants-on-head retarded. Like I get that they're small and they can't bench press as much and they don't have as good equipment, but somehow they manage to make them stupid, venal, cowardly shitheads just because
>>48168689
>Imperium of Mary Sues more like it
I don't think you know what a Mary Sue actually is.
>>48169428
The term has evolved out of fanfiction. Now it is a term for characters that receive unrealistically positive characterization.
>>48169593
>Now it is a term for characters that receive unrealistically positive characterization.
Only by the most absolutely liberal definition of the term.
Space Marines are extremely flawed creations, and the 40K lore does a pretty good job of showing that if you dig into it rather than just scratch the surface. Turns out being a supersoldier doesn't leave much time for developing emotional maturity.
>>48169648
This, almost half of space marines either turn traitor or go rouge depending on preference and those that do remain loyal with a few exceptions will let billions die if it means that they can complete their objectives.
>>48168689
>>48169052
>using mary sue incorrectly
>muh summertime
move on everyone there's nothing to see here
>>48168689
Sword of the Stars, though I find your question about not being "le always endure snowflakes" concerning.
Are you implying humanity doesn't always endure anon? Because i'm pretty sure our continued existence is evidence it does.
>>48169648
>>48169738
When was the last time you read a book where a Space Marine had his head up his ass? Read The Beast Arises series, it's practically a showcase in Astartes being SUPER RATIONAL SUPER HONORABLE SUPER BRAINS and mere mortals (with few exceptions) having their heads up their asses.
Pic related is all aboutthe High Lords deciding to attack a fucking ASSAULT MOON with irregulars, and the entire book is just the writer chewing on what a bad idea it is but they go through with it anyway
>>48170013
>BL
This is one of the main problems with your argument.
>>48170086
That's where the fluff is
I wasn't the architect of this horrible world we live in
>>48170013
>Read The Beast Arises series,
Now read the Horus Heresy series and realize that it's the complete opposite.
Also read about any modern Space Marine chapter that isn't Ultramarines, and you'll see they are VERY flawed creations.
They're really good at killing shit, but they have glaring weaknesses that can most certainly be exploited.
>>48170289
Are you kidding? They're the exact same thing! They're all about these Super Duper Space Marines basically saving the Imperium on their own.
When The Beast Arises came out I thought "Finally! With all this Horus Heresy stuff I thought we'd never see a series where other Imperium elements take the stage"
lo and fuckin behold
>>48168689
Tell me sweet summer child, how many brain cells did you manage to rub together to generate this drivel?
>>48168689
>setting in which humans have been losing constantly for 10,000 years
>sues, because I don't like how they lose
fullretard.jpg
>>48170320
>They're all about these Super Duper Space Marines basically saving the Imperium on their own.
Yeah, saving it from themselves. Maybe you missed the part where literally half of them blindly swore obedience to the Warmaster because for perceived wrongs that didn't actually occur in the first place, then tore shit up on a genocidal scale and betrayed all oaths they ever swore to the Imperium? Where even the "good guys" did some pretty horrible shit to try and preserve the Imperium, and in the process nearly broke it? Where many of them viewed humans as being completely expendable beings that were beneath their attention?
Either your reading comprehension is terrible or you didn't actually READ the series.
>>48168689
Please, if you want Mary Sues all over the place then you're looking for Gaunt's Ghosts.
At best SM are only Mary Sue's if they're named characters.
>>48170489
Sure Space Marines are also the bad guys, but it's not like they eat shit. Angron may be evil, but he doesn't have his head up his ass. Lion may be an autist, but he doesn't have his head up his ass. The Emperor himself may be a failure of a father, but he isn't portrayed as a retard.
Whereas the humans in the setting absolutely are. Their weakness and ridiculousness is the backdrop under which even evil Astartes seem tough and competent
>>48170489
Also, not to mention, they ARE literally designed to be Supermen both physiologically AND mentally. It's not like they just pick a bunch of dudes and jack them up, but they get kids/teens and mold them with insanely high standards for decades as they progress through the ranks along with outright brainwashing and shit.
They're literally designed to be combat rape machines, who live for possibly thousands of years and shit, spending most of that in war. Some, like the Consuls and Ultramarines, have more duties/interests outside of fucking shit up, but a large part of war is still studying things like tactics and ethos, how to rally those shitty Guardsmen or why people stand and fight/reinforcing said brainwashing. Reading analysis of the enemies culture to learn their blind spots or better anticipate their actions.
I mean, seriously, it would be more unbelievable if they weren't hyper-destructive and well educated faith and fury given physical form.
>>48168689
Define "Down to Earth"
Pretty sure the humans in Defiance are pretty down to Earth after a good portion of the planet was destroyed in a war with Aliens.
>>48168689
>All Space Marines are holier-than-thou Mary Sues with no downsides
>Literally the entire setting for the Imperium is because half of them became servants and worshippers of absolute evil
Jesus fuck man, you don't even need to read a book for this one
>>48170556
There's a difference between having your chemical receptors that transmit fear burned out and being given insight into being a better person. One of the main points of the setting is supposed to be that Space Marines aren't fit to rule because their detatchment from humanity's mindset makes them shitty leaders, but in the fluff the writers want Captain OC Donut Steel to be the SUPER SMARTEST, and since they aren't super smart themselves, they contrast them against mortals which are just plain retarded.
That's the problem with that mindset. You can't ACTUALLY write the dialogue and story of a mental Superman, because the writer is just a dude with cheeto dust on his fingers. So they write the Space Marines as boilerplate heroes, and make them SEEM like mental Superman by rendering EVERY OTHER HUMAN in the setting into a gibbering retard with his pants full of his own shit and his shoes on backwards.
>>48170575
>DEFIANCE
Patrician taste anon
>>48170612
Chaos Marines may be portrayed as evil, but they aren't portrayed as stupid.
Other Imperium factons, however, are portrayed as ridiculously stupid. Guard, Mechanicum, Ecclesiarchy, Navy, whoever, the only thing they have in common is that if they're in the same book as a Space Marine they are going to be imbiciles who drown on their own saliva if not rolled over every half hour
>>48170652
>Mechanicum
>Stupid
>Navy
>Stupid
So did you just learn everything about the game from memespammers? Or just a few jokes off of TTS?
>>48170686
Read The Beast Arises. The story CENTERS around the Mechanicum and Navy BOTH being COMPLETELY venal dishonorable useless incompetent retards.
>>48170730
You've referenced, in your rebuttals against everyone and here, literally only The Beast Arises, written- by the way- by Black Library (enough said there). Even against the codex, rule book lore, literally all of 30k, you seem to insist that not only are they Mary Sues (they aren't) but they also are becuase everyone else is stupid (they also aren't). That'd be like getting mad at a guy escaping from a Down Syndrome Hosplital for being a Mary Sue.
>>48170730
Wow the guys here are right. You are a moron.
The two higher up characters are assholes but you seem to missed that there are good guys within these orginzation that undermined the plots of these assholes and helped out the protagonists. Heck, the good guy Admech guy was nearly turned to a servitor because he threw wrenches in the Admech leaders plans, leaked information, and hid the assassins lord's agents.
As for the navy, did you miss the admirals who actually fought and displayed valor aganst overwhelming odds? On did you focus on the High Lords due in charge on them?
>>48170806
I've also been talking about the Horus Heresy, which is another main offender, but even in the McNeil _____s Of Mars series, which is supposed to be about the Mechanicum, the Black Templars take the majority of the narrative and are the most positively portrayed characters in the books.
The only way writers will portray other Imperium characters as heroic is if Space Marines aren't part of the narrative. If they are, they have to look SO HEROIC that other characters have to be shitty in order to facilitate that.
>>48170854
It's great for individual characters to get moments of heroism. As far as the actual organizations as a whole, however, the Astartes are the only ones who aren't portrayed as ridiculous incompetents.
Them and the Assassins and, what, half of the Inquisition. Everybody else? Failures.
>>48170806
>The Beast Arises, written- by the way- by Black Library (enough said there).
Not him.
That is not an argument. It's a work written by a firm of GW and watched by GW editors. It's as canon as rest and its quality is the same as any work of GW.
But you wouldn't know that because like the moron you are talking to you haven't read it. Marines got their asses handed to them by the Orks in the first novel. In other novels they were forced to ally with traitor marines. They are far from omnipotent mary sues.
Also the important bits you all seem to have missed is that the Assassin leader dude and the good guy admech are the sole reason why things worked (after a intense struggle) for the marines in the end and they managed to locate Vulkan. The real heroes of the story are these two guys, the two last sane dudes in the galaxy.
>>48170933
The Fists get wiped out, but it's not like they trip on their own combat knives, they're on a planet that gets ripped apart. It's a heroic tragedy, it's even MORE complementary and aggrandizing!
For contrast, look at the Navy's big moment of victory. They had to be TRICKED into attacking the Moon because Langsom is a Designated Shithead. They were able to get a moment to shine, but only in spite of themselves. Every other time? The Navy has their thumbs right up their own assess
As far as the AdMech traitor being a hero, isn't that even less flattering for fans of the Mechanicum? They made the entire faction so shitty that there's literally just one guy who's any good?
>>48170933
>the two last sane dudes in the galaxy
And the last book, Book 12 The Beheading, will show them finally losing it.
>>48169774
We have only had to face one tool-using rival sepcies, and we were mutually fertile amd thus able to fuck them into submission. That will probably not be the case when we encountet extraterrestrials, unless William Shatner is still alive.
>>48170874
Hold up, it's up to debate whether or not they are Mary Sues, but Horus Heresy is not a good example. Marines lose their shit, at Issvan most of the loyalists are wiped out due to retardation, and the whole thing circles around these "incorruptible" Mary Sues being corrupted to the point they try to kill the Emperor
>>48170992
Sure, Marines are both the heroes and villlains of the HH series, but what about the mortals in Horus Heresy? They're worthless. They can't accomplish anything. They don't have anything worthwhile to add. They exist only to be lame so that the Space Marines can be heroic.
They even codified it into the fluff, "Transhuman Paralysis" or something like that. They basically made it a rule that, no matter what he's equipped with or how much support he has, a mortal human can't fight a Space Marine and win.
Though there were those guys on Dwell that were pretty cool, with the personal energy shields. They lasted....like five seconds against a secondary character. Five seconds is pretty good.
>>48170883
>the Astartes are the only ones who aren't portrayed as ridiculous incompetents.
Losing your whole chapter in few minutes is not a sign of competence. Like I said, the marines only got so far because of the good guys acting within the Imperial organizations. I did not get the impression that the marines were super complement. They were bitches of the High Lords until their allies stepped in. They were used as political pawns even now in the story being stringed along by their would be allies.
And let us that in the last novel the marines alliance are going to get curbstomped by the assassins with only one marine surviving long enough to murder the assassin lord.
>half of the Inquisition.
The Inquisitor lady was on point. Her rival was also on point, according to the captured Eldar, but their priorities were different. They were equally right in the end.
>>48171041
>Losing your whole chapter in few minutes is not a sign of competence.
They contrived the situation to make the Fists completely fucked. They were basically on a planet as it was getting Exterminatus'd WHILE being shot at by an Ork surprise attack of overwhelming odds.
It was metal as fuck and a glorious last stand. It was as positive as characterization gets.
And Inquisitor Dipshit only became a heroic character (with access to heroic characterization) after getting bitched by Drakan and Inquisitor Coolchick.
I guess what I'm saying is, will the Astartes ever get a REAL eating shit moment? Not a glorious awesome defeat, but a moment where they make a MISTAKE like all the other factions are portrayed as doing and the narrative RECOGNIZES it?
>>48168689
Except when Kriegers hear tale of the shit the lamenters have gone through, they give out a soft whistle and say "damn, that sucks"
Otherwise yeah. Lot of plot armor, and marines have a bad habit of being the equivalents to avatars dying in the old days (aka, omg wow look how tough it is it punched an avatar/marine to death with its face! SO SCARY WHO SAVE US?)
>>48171040
>but what about the mortals in Horus Heresy?
Perpetual human characters exist, anon.
Olly, John, Alivia. They are the stars in some novels.
>>48171040
Okay, but the question is Mary Sue, meaning they have no downsides ever in an way. Space Amrines clearly do. And as for the fighting regular people, what do you think warriors trained since childhood and enhanced with the DNA of the culmination of all Mankind's power with additional near-unbreakable armor and guns that shoot an exploding shell are gonna do? Die to a hobo from the Outer Systems throwing punches at him?
>>48171103
Yeah but do they ever get to KICK ASS?
That one ruthless one got the drop on Kurze but he immediately ate shit
>>48168689
Not even subtle brah.
>>48171113
Look at the tabletop. Space Marines are heavy infantry with heavy weapons, but that doesn't make them invincible. Sure, the average Guardsman has a flashlight, but get a half dozen flashlights aimed on you, you go up in smoke. The guys in the back, with the heavy weapons? They're using the exact same shit that you are, a .75 caliber rocket launcher. See that tank? It may be smaller than a Predator, but that Battle Cannon doesn't give a fuck how many honor seals you plastered to the side of your shit.
The fluff just portrays Space Marines as unrealistically super smart and super heroic, but since the writers aren't super smart, they have to make mortal characters LESS smart and LESS heroic, and it's unrealistic.
Unrealistic positive characterization is the heart of a Mary Sue.
>>48171125
Yes.
Alivia is pretty badass. Check out her story in the "Vengeful Spirit" novel and "Wolf Mother" short story.
>>48171125
The Lucifer Blacks from 'Legion' are badass as fuck. One of them fights Alpharius and gets the upper hand for a bit before being bisected.
>>48171170
You may as well synopsize because I dropped Vengeful Spirit halfway through (could Loken BE any more unbearable?) and I don't intend to read any short stories with WOLF in the title
>>48171183
I really liked the Geno Chiliad too, that's why I felt like Legion was a waste of time. The cool elements ended up dead at the end of the book, and the relevant stuff (Cabal bullshit) was just...lame.
>>48168689
>space marines
>literally the guys who get murdered at the most inconvenient times by greenskinned soccer holligans with guns, space elves, space elves that like BDSM, glowstick murderbots, backstabbing former battle brothers, space weebs, OVERSIZED COCKROACHES, human centipede space pirates, natural disasters, natural predators that are 100x the size of our own, their own human counterparts, and sometimes their own chapter
Yeah, some are Mary Sue, but most are not.
Maybe the humans in Twilight Imperium? They're part of why the setting is how it is but they're just one of many races that could become the next galactic power.
>>48170542
>Angron may be evil, but he doesn't have his head up his ass.
Angron had his head so far up his ass he didn't know what sunshine was.
>Lion may be an autist, but he doesn't have his head up his ass.
He does in any situation that isn't directly related to military tactics and strategy.
You clearly haven't actually read the books, anon.
>>48170992
>at Issvan most of the loyalists are wiped out due to retardation,
No, they're wiped out because an unthinkable betrayal was executed with absolute precision in their weakest moment from within their own ranks.
>>48171040
>but what about the mortals in Horus Heresy? They're worthless. They can't accomplish anything. They don't have anything worthwhile to add. They exist only to be lame so that the Space Marines can be heroic.
>who is Cyrene
>who is Lotarra
>who is Olianus Pious
>who is the mentor of Loken
>who is fucking Malcador the Sigilite
Your reading comprehension is atrocious, anon.
>>48171375
They're heroes and villains. The mortals in that series? Insects.
>>48171433
>The mortals in that series? Insects.
Yeah, if you're a retard who can't read and only looks at the pictures on the cover.
>>48171407
All Cyrene accomplished was getting killed. All Olanius has accomplished is running away over and over. Malcador is basically Zordon, he's an exposition machine
Lotara was cool. I was genuinely surprised they didn't make a Space Marine the shipmaster, as most other books do.
Face it, though, by and large the mortals exist to job. They exist to be scared so Marines can be fearless, they exist to be weak so Marines can be strong, they exist to be lame so Marines can be heroic.
>>48171456
You're a retard, you can't read, you're ugly, and your mom is ugly.
>>48171388
Nooooo, they could have easily circled up and form a defendable gunline (if they were such Mary Sues), but Iron Hands decided 'fuck it, let's charge 'emmand lost nearly the entire legion. How was that not retarded?
>>48171466
>All Cyrene accomplished was getting killed.
And acted as the spiritual lynchpin and morale center for an ENTIRE LEGION. She gave them a purpose when they no longer had a purpose, and was viewed as the literal embodiment of their new mission. Even Lorgar was distraught when she died. Her very existence and her personal guidance helped bring the Legion back from "the brink"I mean, so to speak, we all know which path the Word Bearers tookand gave them a purpose again.
That's a little more than nothing.
>>48171542
Yeah that's alot of great emotional whatever
But it's not like she kicked anybody's ass
>>48171535
Ah, you're talking about V, not III.
>but Iron Hands decided 'fuck it, let's charge 'emmand lost nearly the entire legion.
Rage is a VERY powerful thing, anon, especially between people who were once best friends. That's not "retarded," but completely understandable human nature, and Space Marines are human beings taken to exaggerated levels.
>>48171542
Cyrene got better though.
>>48171184
She is a mama bear with a magical storybook and she is not afraid of marines or daemons.
>>48171535
>>48171564
A glorious defeat is not negative characterization. Being a mary sue isn't about winning every time, it's about being portayed in this shiny pink light of wonderfulness while others are portrayed shittily.
>>48171562
>But it's not like she kicked anybody's ass
Kicked ass /= accomplishment
She accomplished a whole hell of a lot just by being the moral backbone of a broken Legion and turning them back into a true Legion once again. Even Lorgar respected her greatly.
>>48171598
You seem to be completely misunderstanding what I'm saying here.
Space Marines don't have flaws because they sometimes lose. They are flawed because they often have glaring personality traits that cause serious problems for them in many situations. To further the example of Iron Hands, their incredibly cruel inhumanity towards mortals is a glaring flaw, that is constantly brought up when dealing with them.
>>48169052
>What are Imperial Guard
the Imperial Guard
>>48171610
That's like saying Skylar accomplished alot in Breaking Bad because she was a big emotional anchor.
I mean, yeah, she was, but that didn't make the parts with her any less boring.
>>48171628
Damnation of Pythos was a worthless piece of shit book, and yes, it negatively portrayed Space Marines, it's not like it portrayed anybody else positively. The book was just a cup of black coffee with a nugget of human shit stirred into it.
>>48171659
Damnation of Pythos isn't the only reference to "Iron Hands are cruel dicks."
>>48171769
Yeah but it's the only one where it fucks them over. The rest of the time it's just "Iron Hands are cruel dicks and that makes them cool and grimdark"
Flaws can make you even more of a mary sue if they're cool flaws
>>48171791
>and that makes them cool
It makes literally everybody hate them. That is not "cool."
>>48171806
If you're one of the people who subscribe to the "40k has to be as bitter as a lump of shit rolled in hopps", it's very cool.
Personally I think IH are more fun when the superscience and firepower aspects are more played up, like the Sisyphean crew
>>48171828
>If you're one of the people who subscribe to the "40k has to be as bitter as a lump of shit rolled in hopps", it's very cool.
Yeah, but that's an entirely subjective viewpoint. You can't argue, "It makes them cool, therefore they're Mary Sues," because you're basing their Sue-ness on a subjective concept, whereas Sues depend on being objectively flawless/having flaws that actually help them accomplish their goals.
>>48171916
But it's relative to other characters in the series. Iron Hands may be portrayed with a grim antihero tough guy image that may or may not be cool (come on, it's cool, you know it's cool), but they don't have to take any shit from other factions of the Imperium. They don't have to eat shit.
Other Imperium factions eat shit constantly.
>>48171935
>but they don't have to take any shit from other factions of the Imperium.
>what is the Inquisition
>what is the Abyssal Crusade
>what is the Badab War
>what are the constant policing actions by other Imperial organizations that prevent them from getting too powerful again
You keep spouting this stuff off, but you're ignoring huge amounts of the lore to spin your narrative. Space Marines are the "heroes" of the Imperium, but they most certainly get into deep shit and aren't given carte-blanche to do whatever they want because of it. They still get the hammer brought down upon them when need be.
>(come on, it's cool, you know it's cool)
The only reason Iron Hands get away with being cyborg assholes who treat humans like chunks of meat is because they're First Founding. They are the opposite of "cool."
>>48171994
The Inquistion uses Space Marines like Grey Knights or Minotaurs to police other Space Marines. The Badab War was marine on marine. What you *don't* see are other tabletop armies, like AdMech or Guard or Sisters, every winning against Space Marines. It just doesn't happen.
Also Iron Hands are bad fucking ass. They're basically half-killbot grimdark death cultists with the best and biggest guns in the entire setting. Sure, they're a little rough around the edges, but that just makes them cool, and they certainly aren't the only Chapter, first founding or otherwise, to be like that.
>>48172053
>They're basically half-killbot grimdark death cultists with the best and biggest guns in the entire setting
no, that's the Mechanicus.
>Sure, they're a little rough around the edges, but that just makes them cool,
Literally everybody hates working with them barring the Mechanicus, because they treat everyone, even other Space Marines, like garbage.
>The Inquistion uses Space Marines like Grey Knights or Minotaurs to police other Space Marines.
Grey Knights aren't even Space Marines because of how elite they are. THEY are pretty goddamn close to being Mary Sues, but even then that's understandable given what is asked of them on a daily basis. You pretty much have to be a Sue to do that job.
> The Badab War was marine on marine.
Instigated by the High Lords of Terra on the Astral Claws for getting too big for their britches and thinking they knew better than anybody else and trying to lead a crusade on a WARP RIFT. They learned the error of their ways.
>What you *don't* see are other tabletop armies, like AdMech or Guard or Sisters, every winning against Space Marines
A. You already mentioned Inquisition, and they're a tabletop army.
B. They do, just not when Space Marines are the main character. The main character almost always wins, that's how literally any story is written. When the Imperial Guard are the main characters, and they're fighting Chaos Marines, they absolutely do beat them in many occasions.
You just need to read more books.
>>48172183
So the Iron Hands are too cool for your wimp ass Salamander sensibilities. Too the fuck bad.
>A. You already mentioned Inquisition, and they're a tabletop army.
The Inquisition's forces are either seconded from other Imperial factions or they're the ordo specific military forces, two of three of which are Space Marines. No, the Witch Hunters didn't participate in the Badab War, Astartes did so on their behalf.
>B. They do, just not when Space Marines are the main character. The main character almost always wins, that's how literally any story is written. When the Imperial Guard are the main characters, and they're fighting Chaos Marines, they absolutely do beat them in many occasions.
What book was this?
>>48169170
It's true of the Inquisition, too. If an Inquisitor or Inquisitorial retinue is the core part of the story, they're typically portrayed as competent and either somewhat decent people, or ruthless but pragmatic.
But if an Inquisitor is not the main focus, they're typically full-on antagonists that exist to just be dicks to whoever the protagonists are for no particular reason.
>>48172220
>for your wimp ass Salamander sensibilities.
Nah, just 90% of the rest of the Imperium. There's a reason they're hated, and it's not just because they're a near-heretical Chapter of cyborgs who are barely human even by Astartes standards.
>Astartes did so on their behalf.
As well as hundreds of Guard regiments, orders of Sisters, and hundreds of Naval vessels, and that was on both sides. It was a mini civil war, in every sense of the term.
>What book was this?
Any book where main-character Guardsmen go up against the forces of Chaos? Gaunts Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain being two glaring examples here.
You can bitch all you want, but the fact doesn't change that Space Marines are not Sues because of their inherent flawed nature, and that nature has canonically gotten them into serious shit in the setting on more than one canon occasion.
>>48172183
>Instigated by the High Lords of Terra on the Astral Claws for getting too big for their britches and thinking they knew better than anybody else
the fuck? It was instigated by some fatass merchant clans being butthurt that the astral claws thought defending the maelstrom was more important than sending them their cut.
The inquisition came in long after the conflict escalated.
>>48168864
>what is muh noble Imperial Knights
Space Marines are abhuman autists to begin with. High-functioning Ogryns if you want.
Aren't the Imperium getting utterly annihilated on literally every front?
>>48174381
The only recent fluff that actually acknowledges that is The Regimental Standard, which in addition to being hilarious, paints a very unflattering picture of the Imperium's military apparatus.
https://regimental-standard.com/
Everything else is just so much Marine-wank.
>>48172304
>Gaunts Ghosts and Ciaphas Cain being two glaring examples here.
But that never happens in those books, there's no point where the Valhallans or the Tanith take on a CSM legion, they may face one or two individually, but Gaunt's enemy was Blood Pact mortals and Cain's chaos enemy was traitor guard.
At no point to Guardsmen get to be seen successfully fighting Space Marines. In conflicts like Badab the Guard are secondary, the notable combat is all Marine vs. Marine.
How can anyone in the Imperium be a Mary Sue when Farsight and Shadowsun exist?
