Pathfinder General /pfg/
Do mystics, harbingers, nightmares, rubati, polymaths, and contenders have any reason to use Strength if they start at level 3+ and can take Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility?
Do night terrors have any reason to use Strength if they can have Killer's Implements at level 1?
Do stalkers have any reason to use Strength if they can have Killer's Implements at level 1 and vigilante is way better than every other stalker archetype?
Mediocre Dex and light armor = dead. Muleback Cords are just 1k gp and you can get a resistance bonus from a Steelforge Corset of Resistance.
N. Jolly's vigilante book playtest: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hrk1hl8uXVHazaiPOCvWsFUHX3PB6fQVd13tzguJTgE/edit?usp=sharing
Unified /pfg/ link repository: http://pastebin.com/hdPm41ad
Please search for the unerrata'd content here:
http://web.archive.org/web/http://www.d20pfsrd.com/
Old Thread: >>48087831
Nerf zealot and ravenlord plus take away mystic crafting.
>>48101204
Night Terrors get more benefit out of Str if they want to use two-handed improvised weapons later on by hitting people with big things. You can't pick "improvised weapon" with Killer's Implements as far as I can tell so it ends up not great.
Dex -> Nat armor featuresMUSCLE POWER FOR YOU!
>>48101260
>take away mystic crafting
You mean the thing that allows all-martial parties to interact with the world on the level they should be able to by mid and higher levels?
Fuck that. Give everyone mystic crafting and call it ritual magic. Spend downtime and gold to get a strong effect and then have at-will lesser magic like blasting.
Mystics are basically wizards as all-non-D&D/PF fiction portrays them and it's great.
DEX is not a god stat unless your DM is such an idiot to not include encumbrance rules.
Most heavy armors and even medium armors still need the player to have a STR of 12 to wear it, in addition to whatever fucking gear they have.
>>48101284
>You mean the thing that allows all-martial parties to interact with the world on the level they should be able to by mid and higher levels?
No magic item crafting is fucking broken and no one should interact with the world like that.
>>48101297
Is my group the only group that doesn't mind Dex being picked at least as often as Str/Wis for martials?
Repostin' from last thread, since it devolved into a Dex v Str clusterfuck.
I'm working on a Str-based melee Harbinger who uses a scythe. The party is currently 5th level, what're some key maneuvers/stances that I should take?
Currently, I've got Riven Hourglass as my Dark Focus discipline, in order to get the bonus to attack and damage on multiple attacks using stuff like Minute Hand and Rapid Strike. Is this a decent plan, or am I missing out on something better?
>>48101360
Go play 5e.
>>48101297
Muleback Cords cost only 1,000 gp.
>>48101392
>spending 1k gold at level 2-3 in shanktown
>not just spending 50 gp on a chest, 25 gp for a great lock, 150 gp for a cart and horse
>>48101392
And eats the spot where you need a cloak of resistance
>>48101435
>playing at level 1-2
Your fault.
>>48101438
Nope. DSP gives you a Corset of Resistance.
>>48101260
Ravenlot and Zealord. Got it.
>>48101458
>starting out beyond 4th level
Whats the point? With that kind of wealth and gear, you're not really struggling as an adventurer.
So this guy in my group is playing a swashbuckler who has like 18 base AC but constantly fights defensively even while performing CMs which I'm pretty sure is not allowed, and gets +1 AC from being next to allies, and gets +1 AC from feinting, and a shitton of other stuff. Now he is multiclassing into Armiger and I can't find where the swashbuckler abilities require you to be in light armor. They probably don't
So now this guy has like 24 AC and this ability that forces things to attack him. as well as temporary HP from smoking Opium all the time.
How the fuck do I end this? I made the mistake of saying yes to all this shit
Why the fuck can't people just make normal goddamn characters for once??
>>48101474
Those tits are badly drawn
>>48101485
l2touch/flatfooted, cuckold
>>48101485
He's nerfing himself by playing a fucking swashbuckler. Ignore it.
Also, 24 AC is pitiful.
I hit 30 AC at 6th level Aegis / Soulknife
>>48101360
Not things that the GM can exert full setting control over with veto control if necessary.
Pls no. Being dedicated to building things rather than just shopping lists is clearly too much.
You're a pleb.
>>48101476
Level 3 = 3,000 gp
1,100 gp = Mithral chain shirt
1,000 gp = Muleback Cords
300+ gp = Masterwork weapon
Go pick up Ghost Hunting Blow from Veiled Moon in case you need to fight incorporeals.
>>48101476
>you're not really struggling as an adventurer
I mean, if that's why you play, I guess. My group tends to play starting at level 6-8ish, in order to start out as competent adventurers facing enemies who are the real deal.
>>48101485
Uhh...AC is terrible, anon. I don't get why you're freaking out. This guy is literally using the second last and last lines of defense as a character base, and nerfing himself into the ground by fighting defensively and playing swashbuckler.
>Touch AC
>Flatfooted AC
>Saving throws
>Spells
>Combat maneuvers
Who the fuck is he fighting that can't deal with just AC?
>Why the fuck can't people just make normal goddamn characters for once??
Go fuck yourself, cuck.
>>48101544
>no rations
>no camping materials
>no adventuring gear like ropes, maps, writing materials or even a backpack to keep it in
You know how I can already tell you're not a roleplayer?
Threadly reminder DSP make superior classes to Paizo, play their classes instead. Do not question this.
>>48101596
>roleplaying
>in PF
>with a GM who optimizes every encounter
>we don't get to fight Goblins or Ogres, we get optimized casters who also have Ooze and Swarm minions for some reasonNot even relevant to the argument, just have me from this hell.
>>48101520
>>48101505
>>48101594
Wow you guys were no help.
I think I'm just going to cancel my Pathfinder campaign instead. I'll play an actually good system like D&D 5e.
>>48101663
You made the arcane archer base class, didn't you, butthurt-kun?
>>48101663
Oh, hey Virt.
I almost didn't recognise you.
>>48101663
That's the right thing to do anon.
Good luck and have fun.
>>48101663
confirmed b8 goodbyeShoulda guessed from the op swashbuckler and the 'no help despite 5 suggestions'
>>48101663
k bye
>>48095592
W E L L ?
E L L ? W
L L ? W E
L ? W E L
? W E L L
>>48101596
>no rations
>no camping materials
>no adventuring gear like ropes, maps, writing materials or even a backpack to keep it in
100 gp at most for those.
AT MOST.
>>48101596
>not having rations, camping materials, and adventuring gear abstracted so you can roleplay scenes during and between sessions with the other players without having to track fiddly details and copper-piece prices
anon it's like you don't even play for the RP
I'm thinking of giving the Cavalier in my campaign a Black Blade. He won't know it's a Black Blade until he figures out what the sudden voice in his head is with his 7 Int.
Any thoughts? Is this a bad idea?
>>48101629
Maybe you're fighting Jubilex worshippers?
I dunno know how to help, friendo. Maybe fly. Out of range of swarm and ooze
>>48101717
Do you have some great and pressing need?
Calm your tits
>>48101717
>well
Presumably he's asked them and hasn't gotten an answer back. It's the 4th of july and half of DSP's team works retail. Forrest posted in a GitP thread commenting about it, iirc.
>all this full retard shitposting
>dude who ignores the floating 600 gp for necessity items because "YOU HAVE TO LIST EVERY SINGLE THING OR YOU'RE A ROOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLL PLAAAAAYYYEEEEEER"
>"dude swashbuckler op" guy who ignores all advice telling him how to stop being a moron
I'd rather have the kitsune or monmosu shitposting at this point. At least then when people raged they tended to post funny pictures or art I could mine for my folders.
>>48101752
You're giving him another classes archetype? Or just an intelligent item?
>>48101761
I'm just wondering how Jeff gets any writing done when it takes him 3 days to put down a paragraph.
>>48101771
Good thing my original question was days ago, not hours.
>>48101752
Great idea.
Make ita voice from his past andsecretly evil.
>>48101752I know it's poor form to go "but DSP!," butYou should give him Razor instead. And then bring back storytimes. My DM used that sword with another player in my game and it's the best thing.
>>48101786
Yeah. They probably also don't have explaining their shitty monster classes at the top of their priority list desu
>>48101727
>not emptying every tavern in town of its ales, wines and meads for the long journey ahead
>not preparing masterwork camping gear
>not making your cooking utensils and pots and pans out of dwarven-forged mithral
Do you even adventurer?
>>48101786
>>48101814
You do remember the bit where the classes were finished some time ago and at this point are just a layout issue, yes? Jeff's got other shit he's doing with his time.
I can only counsel patience.
>>48101778
>monmosu shitposting
Done.
Which bestiary entry would you waifu?
Apart from Sound Striker bards, are there any good 1st party ways to kill someone with sound? I want a PC that can fuck people up with a violin without physically hitting them with it.
>>48101784
Just the item, and I was thinking of taking away the whole special ability column, just giving it the scaling enhancement and mental stats/ego from the Bladebound Magus table.
>>48101814
Do you have a link to the Razor? I just recently started allowing PoW, and my players haven't warmed up to it yet.
>>48101842
You know that show called How It's Made, where they take something and spend 5-10 minutes on an overview of the manufacturing process?
That's all I want here.
>>48101853
Razor's in their steelforge playtest. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SrB0WBi4eCsZ990MtH4NlLzFuQzTpYRNuNg2EaK6YnU/edit
Not actually a PoW thing, just an incredible intelligent item.
>>48101816
> Not drawing your own food and drink
> Not drawing your own expeditious tent
> Not drawing your own utensils
I loves marvelous pigment.
>>48101816
>not making your cooking utensils and pots and pans out of dwarven-forged mithral
>le dwarven-made meme
Whatever the dwarf makes are absolute garbage.
I can take a shit in a forge and craft a better set of armor.
>>48101849
Thundercaller Bard.
Hey guys I never played 3.5 and only dabbled in pathfinder. I played a game once and I was a cleric with the healing domain. The DM put us against some pretty tough monsters and I died so he said I wasn't good enough to play in his game.
It was fun though and I want to play more how hard is it to run a game?
>>48101752
I really like this idea.
You should also make an alternate Cavalier class with that in mind.
>>48101894
What's it like constantly being cucked by humans because you can't get your tiny dick up to adults, elves, or women?
>>48101816
250 gp for a Traveler's Any-Tool.
>>48101816
>having a DM who charges you WBL for that instead of just allowing you to have it as your fluff requires
>>48101917
I don't think there's enough to the concept for a whole new class, but I could see a Bladebound Cavalier archetype.
>>48101947
>thinking you shouldn't have to pay for useful items
>reee gibsmedat
Kill yourself, subhuman.
>>48101727
>>48101596
>>48101744
>>48101816
>>48101881
>>48101947
>actually paying for your gear
>not simply manifesting whatever tool you need from your mind
C U C K S
U
C
K
S
>>48101947
I prepared a .txt file long ago for that situation.
5 Bells, 5gp, 0 lbs
1 Compass, 10gp, 0.5 lbs.
2 Cases, Map or Scroll, 2gp, 1 lb.
5 Bear Traps, 10gp, 50 lbs.
5 Bags of Caltrops, 5gp, 10 lbs.
20 Candles, 0.02gp, 0 lbs.
10 pcs. White Chalk, 0.01gp, 0 lbs.
10 pcs. Colored Chalk (various), 0.02gp, 0 lbs.
1 Book, Journal, 10gp, 1 lb.
3 lbs. Sealing Wax, 3gp, 3 lbs.
2 Inkpens, 0.2gp, 0 lbs.
1 oz. of Glowing Ink, 5gp, 0 lbs.
10 sheets of Rice Paper, 0.5gp, 0 lbs.
1 Crowbar, 2gp, 5 lbs.
1 Hammer, 0.5gp, 5 lbs.
1 Flint and Steel, 1gp, 0 lbs.
1 Sledge, 1gp, 10 lbs.
1 Block and Tackle, 5gp, 5 lbs.
2 Quarterstaves, 0gp, 8 lbs.
250ft. Hemp Rope, 5gp, 50 lbs.
50ft. Silk Rope, 10gp, 5 lbs.
1 Small Steel Mirror, 10gp, 0.5 lbs.
3 Empty Glass Vials, 3gp, 0 lbs.
5 Empty Iron Vials, 0.5gp, 5 lbs.
1 Cold Weather Outfit, 8gp, 7 lbs.
1 Hot Weather Outfit, 8gp, 4 lbs.
3 Traveler's Outfits, 3gp, 15 lbs.
1 pair of Snowshoes, 5gp, 4 lbs.
1 Backpack, 2gp, 2 lbs.
2 Waterproof Bags, 1gp, 1 lb.
2 Bandoliers, 1gp, 0 lbs.
2 Belt Pouches, 2gp, 1 lb.
2 Spell Component Pouches, 10gp, 4 lbs.
4 Sacks, 0.4gp, 2 lbs.
2 Waterskins, 2gp, 8 lbs.
3 Grappling Hooks, 3gp, 12 lbs.
1 Bullseye Lantern, 12gp, 3 lbs.
1 set of Thieves' Tools, 30gp, 1 lb.
10 Pitons, 1gp, 5 lbs.
10 Iron Spikes, 0.5gp, 10 lbs.
1 Signal Whistle, 0.8gp, 0 lbs.
1 Small Tent, 10gp, 20 lbs.
20 Torches, 0.02gp, 20 lbs.
500ft. of String, 0.01gp, 5 lbs.
Total: 283 lbs. & 188.48 gp
I also have one of Bestow Curse & similar options, including expanded options.
>>48101937
>taking "tool packs" or "adventurer packs"
I'll never understand you niggers. Buying misc items is what I get off on when I play D&D. Its like embarking in dwarf fortress or playing Oregon Trail but you can buy anything and use it for anything you can imagine.
>>48101947
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>48101961
Its good to know I'm not the only person that buys and lists EVERYTHING they have and where they are stored so I can roleplay to the maximum capabilities of my character.
>>48101983
>not using magic to fabricate whatever you need instead, including summoning a fine succubus whore whenever you're bored
PLEB
>>48101867
I am not the person who wrote the monster classes; I was brought on after everything was written to help tweak and finalize them. However, for the "how it's made" stuff... The goal of the Monster Classes was to deliver the fantasy of playing-the-monster, in a way that refluffing/building-to-emulate/etc doesn't for many people.
With that in mind, a /whole lot/ of the initial design was gut feeling, comparing to existing options at a given level, and then running numbers afterwards to tweak it.
In some cases, we ended up erring on the side of a stronger class in order to help support the feel of "playing the monster." In others, we decided to take further steps away from the bestiary stuff when things became too problematic for gameplay. For example, the decision to stat up the Ghost as a specific race instead of a template, and furthermore, the decision to give them miss chances (stronger defenses and more useful in small numbers) instead of scaling into damage resistance like PF's incorporeal subtype was based on wanting to make it playable and fit the concept, instead of matching the exact monster.
With dead levels? We split up abilities into chunks that felt like they fit at the levels they arrived at; ditto ability scores, natural armor scaling, movement modes, etc.I just spent a good two minutes trying to click store windows when the captcha was asking for mountains. I think I should probably go to bed.
>>48101995
>I'll never understand you niggers. Buying misc items is what I get off on when I play D&D. Its like embarking in dwarf fortress or playing Oregon Trail but you can buy anything and use it for anything you can imagine.
While I hate that shit, myself. I play D&D for the roleplay and interactions with other characters (PC and NPC), and occasionally the combat and character building.
>>48101204
Strength bonus to damage is 1.5x with the weapons anyone uses, and power attack gives better damage than piranha strike. AC isn't that big a deal, the shit that will really fuck you up targets saves.
>>48102027
>damage resistance like PF's incorporeal subtype
>Forrest thinks incorporeal uses DR
If a supernatural ability says "creature within 30 feet" but never says you need line of effect to that creature, can you use that ability through a wall or a door as long as you know where your target is?
SPELLS need line of effect by default, but supernatural abilities are not spells.
>>48102056
For using shit in any ways I can imagine, I get off on using my ABILITIES for that, rather than random gear. I get a much more satisfying feeling out of using a cantrip, maneuver, or spell to pull something oddball off than using rope to. I use rope and camping tools to do stuff all the time, I don't need to pretend to do that in a game.
>>48102027
But that doesn't explain the fucking ridiculous goodies some of the monster classes get (looking at you, succubus).
>>48101848If I absolutely had my choice, it's between Swan Maiden, Weretiger, Gynosphinx, Alraune, Vampire, sentient Wax Golem, or the Air Veela.I'm indecisive, okay?
>>48102067
When did I say Damage Reduction, anon?
From the incorporeal subtype:
>It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy).
>>48102087
As I said, there were some classes that we erred on the side of a stronger class when that class had abilities that were a core part of getting that feel. The spellcasting option for monsters like the succubus exists for DMs to nerf (or buff, in some cases) the classes with heavy amounts of SLAs if they don't feel they're right for their game.
>>48102027
I see. This is exactly what I wanted; thanks.
>>48102166
Sorry to be delayed with it. As someone noted upthread, it's been a very long week and weekend.
>>48102141>IndecisiveIsn't the show a harem anime though?
>>48102141>not Anemos to make beautiful Sylph babies
>>48102027
>the decision to give them miss chances (stronger defenses and more useful in small numbers) instead of scaling into damage resistance like PF's incorporeal subtype was based on wanting to make it playable and fit the concept, instead of matching the exact monster.
>rolling for miss chances with each attack = more playable
Sure buddy.
>>48102222
Don't most characters try to get miss chance around level 4-5 anyway, since it's the best defense?
>>48102077
Its about enjoying the roleplay of the mundane in a fantastical setting though. You keep track of that to ground yourself to the reality of what you're doing in the world. When you remember your character eats, and drinks from a water skin, or finds it shitty to sleep on a hard cavern floor, or find the smell of some dungeon room repugnant because the DM remembered to use rules for an extremely off-putting mold that you get to engross in the world.
I'm not saying characters aren't important or anything. I heavily roleplay character encounters too. I'm just not a fan of people that use "I would have had that in my pocket" improv, even if they very well would have probably had it in their pocket. In my mind either you do, or your don't, because its a real world. Unless you actually do have magic pants that let you pull mundane items out of your pockets.
I like playing casters too, though I'm more partial to the sorcerer than the wizard/witch/summoner. As a sorcerer though I like to dress like a soldier and avoid magic whenever possible. I can only assume that letting people know you use magic is almost never beneficial. The last character I played was a sorcerer with a "sphinx" bloodline I think? I specialized in scrying and anti-scrying magic and my party thought I was a ranger for the longest time because I pretended I was tracking people instead of whiping out a crystal ball. I also used a crossbow a lot.
>>48102222
You realize actual incorporeality has a 50% miss chance against magic attacks, right? It's still a problem. This way is just weaker, since mundane attacks work sometimes too.
>>48102257
It halves damage, actually.
>>48102257
>stupid cuck didn't read the rules
Expected.
>>48102255
Sure. I keep track of stuff like that, but my group also doesn't dock your WBL for it. We tend to pick up mundane gear and write it on our sheet as needed. If we had to spend the gold we use for mechanical viability on stuff (or, hell, if we had to dig into a book to find prices and weights for things), we wouldn't know that my character has a sweet tooth and that his adopted younger sister makes amazing donuts. That several of the characters prefer cream in their coffee, but the kitsune likes it black ("like his heart," as the DM joked). I wouldn't be describing the novels my character reads, nor would I be noting down that he takes the time to keep his clothing and hair impeccable, even in a dungeon. We wouldn't be spending time describing how the characters' shoes make it awkward to walk in certain parts of the dungeon, and how the inquisitor complains about his cursed high heels.
We probably wouldn't be spending half a session or more on just characters talking, spending time joking around at a campfire as the party's hammer-wielding myrmidon cooks stew and bemoans the lack of facilities to make more donuts.
Keeping yourself grounded in the mundane parts of a fantastical setting doesn't come from messing with spreadsheets of items, it comes from a group taking the time to explore scenes that involve it.
>>48101807
That guy in white reminds me of a followers of the Prophecies of Kalistrade.
I bet he's fabulous.
>>48101848
hurse is best grill.
>>48102370
>waaa I am literally too poor to spend 20 gp max on interesting fluff shit
kys retard thx
>>48102381
>followers of the Prophecies of Kalistrade.
Speaking of, has anyone ever played a Kalistocrat?
There's a troupe of them in Dragon's Demand, which introduced me to the concept, but it seems like it would be a pretty nuts thing to actually try and play.
>>48102388
I don't want to dignify that with a response, but it's more like... What's even the point? The fluff stuff doesn't make enough of a difference monetarily to consider it worth the time digging through rulebooks to find items approximating what we want to have on our characters in most cases.
And in the cases where the book labels something with a price that DOES matter (spyglasses, for example), why the fuck would a sane DM charge a player a significant amount of money for something that's entirely fluff?
It's like tracking mundane ammo. At some point you hit diminishing returns on realism adding to the game, when that time and energy could be better spent anywhere else, like discussing how our kitsune is trying desperately to hide his true identity from the rest of the party (including his adopted sister with the donuts).
Maybe it's just a personal preference thing. I prefer very character-driven campaigns, where the interactions between PC and PC matter a lot more than the interactions between Player and Environment. Since that's what a lot of the sentiments expressed seem to be getting at here--the idea that it's on the player to buy equipment to interact with the world, when the player isn't actually IN the world (or an adventurer), and the character would know better than them what they need.
>>48101594
Maybe you're one of those people who enver really gets to play and mainly just knows the game through optimization guides, but realistically speaking AC is generally king. You only have so much protecting you during the normal-tier levels and the people who get high AC perform extremely well. There's not much the DM can do that both circumvents AC and is appropriate for the party.
>>48102482
>normal-tier levels
It still really weirds me out that the PF community plays a lot of very low levels, when he 3.5 community learned that the game functions best at 6-13 half a decade ago and tends towards that, at least online.
>>48102464
Okay, that's a bit of an actual argument, I'll stop spewing shit for a while. I don't find browsing a list of mundane equipment to be a huge inconvenience, and I like going shopping ingame during Session 0 or whatever to purchase whatever it is. Plus, since the stuff has actual, legitimate uses in surviving the wilds, especially spyglasses/telescopes which can hugely boost Perception, I feel that it's better to quantify that sort of thing. The default adventurer's outfit says it's already customizable and comes with all sorts of bits and bobs as desired, so I don't mind some guy having a mundane skillet, a bit of tobacco, a few sheets of paper, whatever. But if someone tries to tell me they suddenly have... a mithral pot that just appeared and they didn't pay for, I would tell them to fuck off. That's a couple pounds of very valuable metal being conjured at a player's convenience, and I wouldn't allow someone to pull solid platinum out of their ass for flavor either.
>>48102370
The item weight and cost is an important part of that to me and our group. Our setting doesn't have bags of holding for example. We play Epic 6 rules though so our campaign never reaches truly high fantasy.
I guess its just differences in playstyle. I don't encounter a lot of the min-maxing problems a lot of groups seem to face in regards to gear vs enemies being absurd or anything. I think our group is probably suited to playing like, 5th edition, but a lot of us find the rules lightness of 5th edition abhorrent, well its not even rules lightness, its like, how you build your character is super restrictive.
If your a cleric you get 1 use of turn on undead. In Pathfinder you can pump charisma and take feats like extra turn undead if you really just want to fucking turn undead. The same goes for skills and items and spells and stuff.
>>48102464
>like discussing how our kitsune is trying desperately to hide his true identity from the rest of the party (including his adopted sister with the donuts).
Yeah, we get it. You mentioned it in the first session. Do we really have to fucking bring it up every 5 minutes?
Also, fuck Kitsune.
>>48102536
>Fuck Kitsune
Feels like that's just exacerbating things.
>>48102563
Don't care. Never met a Kitsune that wasn't a shit character with a shit player behind it.
Ban it, and ban anyone who talks about it.
>>48102536
It was actually two of the other players who conspired for this situation. I was gonna play an edgy shapeshifting swordsman and now everything took a turn for hilarity instead.
Fucking kitsune tends to lead to more kitsune, though. I get that you presumably dislike the furry kitsune of Golarion. So do I. Much prefer mythology-inspired shapeshifting magic fox trickster-types.
>>48102587
I don't like either.
>>48102530
Yeah, seems to be. My group tends to /start/ towards level 6 and we play a much higher-fantasy setup. The setting the game I'm referring to is in is a fairly high-magic homebrew one that in a lot of ways parodies standard fantasy tropes (like everything being shitty). Bags of holding are common, adventurers are strong, most people tend to have really poor immune systems thanks to the existence of magical healing and disease-removal...
>>48102528
Yeah, stuff like mithral pots, I guess, is a bit awkward. However, "surviving in the wilds" is what, a DC 10 survival check without even needing tools? Mechanically, the items don't do much. I'd probably give a player a mithral skillet if they had bought mithral armor or something, though.
>>48102619
I'm sorry to hear that. I expect my current parties would give you an aneurysm desu.
>>48102575
Small sample size. I'm in the opposite boat right now; have yet to meet a shitty kitsune played by a shit player. I guess my sample size is also small.
>Buddy of mine decides to GM, despite never running before.
>He's really fucking excited, basically running a western themed game
>asks me to get on Skype with my sheet for an intro session, to get into character
>Intro session ends after the accidental death of 24 passengers and the destruction of the caboose my character was riding on.
>mfw I'm starting the game with a 25,000 GP bounty on my head
>at Level 5
This is gonna be a fun game.
>>48102482
area of effect attacks are appropriate for all parties at all levels
>>48102665
>I guess my sample size is also small.
It is literally impossible that you have a sample larger than 1.
Because any more than that would invalidate your post.
It is physically impossible for your sample of "decent" Kitsune PCs/players to be large than my sample of shitty ones.
Okay, so I'm DMing a very silly campaign.
I got a bard who wants to be "the bardiest bard to have ever barded."
He even tossed me some 'fluff' spells he wants to include into his spells known.
>summon whore (summons a lowly concubine)
>communal, summon whore
>summon greater whore (summons a concubine that caters to your wierdest fetishes)
>communal, summon greater whore
>summon monstrous maiden
>communal, summon monstrous maiden
>summon waifu
>summon monsterous waifu
Should I let him have this?
>>48102692
Currently at 5, including a half-kitsune in a modern cyberpunk/ninja-themed game.
>>48102708
No.
>>48102708
Go for it. You already said its a very silly campaign anyways.
>>48102708
Sounds pretty awful unless the entire group is into it.
>>48102679
Well, you can't slow down now, getting 25 grand off the bat like that. You need to keep up the momentum.
>>48102727That's why its communal : ^ )
>>48102679
A bounty is a measure of power levels, doncha know?
>>48102724
Very silly doesn't mean "I can jerk off at the table", you fucking subhuman. Kill yourself kill yourself why do fucks like you openly fantasize about making your animal companion fuck other PCs kill yourself kill yourself kill yourself kill yourself kill yourself kill yourself
>>48102708
Well, if you do, odds are the game's swiftly going to deteriorate into a constant stream of summoned whores, maidens, and waifus.
If you're into that, fine, but if you want them to do something else with their time, I'd say ixnay that right quick.
>>48102746
are you okay anon
>>48102708
Your bard forgot to prepare the 'Summon Harem', and 'Summon Monstrous Harem' spells
>>48102782
I'm sorry to hear that. i hope your day improves. If you're in America, happy 4th. Get some beer and fireworks.
>>48102482
>but realistically speaking AC is generally king.
'Realistically speaking' you're wrong at every level range. Pumping AC always comes at the expense of offense, doesn't shore up your defenses against touch attacks and/or enemies that render you flat-footed, and doesn't stop you from getting fucked by Save or Lose/Suck abilities, and as you go up in levels you have to give up more and more offensive ability for defense just to keep up with monster attack bonuses.
>>48102797
Thanks but my city hates freedom so the fireworks are banned
>>48102803
Sparklers are still fun!
>>48101848
Aasimar a cute.
>>48102799
Dexterity improves your offense (initiative), improves your AC against touch attacks, helps you NOT be flat-footed (initiative), and helps you avoid those god-awful Pit spells.
Dexterity is good. Strength is dogshit.
>>48102827
Stats in terms of generic important go like this:
Constitution = Dexterity > Wisdom > Intelligence > Strength > Charisma
>>48101848
Cetaciel, a dolphin as the finest pussy in the animal kingdom.
Why is being a Strength/Charisma character suffering?
Strength gets completely eaten up by Dexterity if Deadly Agility/Killer's Implements exist (thanks DSP) and Charisma is worth dicks because Leadership feats are usually banned and Intelligence characters can be socialites with the right traits/feats.
Is the only reason to go Strength/Charisma at level 3+, like, if you're playing a paladin or a zealot?
>>48101848
Lamias a best
>>48102871
Or a rubato (empowered attacks really like the extra damage) or vigilante or something. If your key ability is Cha, go Cha. Otherwise, go your key ability.
Your stat dependencies are always gonna be determined by your class.
>>48102708
Ah yes, the dreadedSemennerBard archetype.
>>48102827
Only if you're capable of doing something with that Dexterity. The fact that you'll need to either bring your own, non-Dex based abilities like a caster or you'll need to sink several feats to catch up really doesn't help it.
>>48102692
I dunno, the Linnorm Kings party seems to have a good (if somewhat basic "oh I'm not a kitsune I'm just a normal human honest!") character for their party. Then again they've also got a huldra and a witchwolf, so who knows.
>>48102841
>Constitution = Dexterity
Maybe in 3.5, but Dexterity is a little better in Pathfinder because it improves your CMD and Deadly Agility is around. Plus, Pit spells are way worse than any 3.5 Reflex save or sucks.
>>48102871
Warlord is still one of the strongest martials in the game. Get a two-hander and go to town.
>>48102895
>Or a rubato (empowered attacks really like the extra damage)
>Str/Cha bard with light armor
Good way to get yourself killed.
>>48102871
It isn't. Getting 1.5x STR and getting Power Attack, which has a higher ratio than Piranha Strike or Deadly Shot, really helps.
Charisma is the one that gets shafted because it doesn't actually do anything that other stats can't.
>>48102904
Deadly Agility also costs you two feats to get (one if you can get Weapon Finesse for free somewhere, like UnRogue), whereas Strength and Constitution cost you nothing (or 1 feat, if you're getting Power Attack like an STR-character should be getting).
>>48102871
>Why is being a Strength/Charisma character suffering?
>Not being an Antipaladin / Dread with all the intimidate feats to hit enemies flatfooted while they're all too scared to fight
>>48102918
/pfg/:
>AC IS SHIT IT'S THE SECOND LAST LINE OF DEFENSE LOL WHY WOULD ANYONE CARE ABOUT IT
>OMG LIGHT ARMOR WITHOUT DEX FOCUS? OMG OMG LOW AC U WILL DIE
Choose one, cuckolds.
>>48102918
Use counters and miss chance to deal with that; you're a Rubato, you have free action recovery. Or just alpha strike with an empowered Flux strike or Zenith strike
>>48102908
Dex-based Steelfist Commandos are just plain better though.
>>48102904
Pit spells nothing. A lesser metamagic rod of Dazing Spell + a Reflex-targeting spell is cancer that is extremely hard to defend against if Dexterity isn't your primary stat.
>>48102938
Not really. You're still gonna be fighting better with a two-hander than unarmed strikes or finesse weapons.
Hell, even Fool's Errand wants Str-based more, because its skill is Strength-based, and you get two free feats compared to Dex to buff the rest of your stuff.
>>48102934
/pfg/ usually winds up playing at levels 3-6 or some such shit before their game inevitably dies.
In THOSE levels, AC is pretty good.
>>48102934
Well, you did a good job of showing us all that you lacked any understanding of what was being said.
>>48102962
I am so sorry for them. I'll just be thankful for my level 10 and level 6 games.
>>48102956
>lesser metamagic rod of Dazing Spell
You know that costs 14,000 gp and affects only 3rd level spells, right?
>>48102511
Bullshit. People just like playing 6-13 for the sake of builds, which is what people like 3.5 for.
Also there's a pronounced difference in low level gameplay between pathfinder and 3.5 and it's bizarre that you don't recognize that. Characters get very little in the way of class abilities at early levels in 3.5, and in Pathfinder it's loaded. Scaling feats are designed to be more rewarding for lower levels - see power attack.
>>48102686
Amazing retort. You've convinced me - I'm fireballing my level 2 party. Thanks 4chan
>>48102799
>Pumping AC always comes at the expense of offense
No it doesn't unless you mean that in the most abstract possible sense, like "you could have spent that money on a magic weapon instead of armor!", which would be stupid.
> touch attacks and/or enemies that render you flat-footed
There are infinite ways to apply your AC to touch or flat footed. You don't have to be creative, just open the book.
>and doesn't stop you from getting fucked by Save or Lose/Suck abilities
Bingo!
Similarly, good saves or spell resistance don't save you from regular weapone attacks. And tell me, between Save-or-Suck spells and regular weapon attacks, which are going to more common in just about any campaign ever?
Use your head, people, and stop letting optimization memes tell you what to think.
>>48102975
A Dazing Fireball is actually effective from when you become capable of casting it right up to level 20. Monster Reflex saves suck.
>>48102957
>You're still gonna be fighting better with a two-hander than unarmed strikes or finesse weapons.
Medium armor is shitty as fuck for defense and slows you down.
>>48102938
Your damage isn't going to match a greatsword for ages, and it'll still take you two more feats than if you just went with a two-hander.
>>48102976
>No it doesn't
Yes it does. Spending class resources, permanent or otherwise, feats, and magic items on AC means you can't spend them on offense. Getting a baseline effective AC is fine, but focusing on it is shit and is a one-way trip to "everyone ignore this retard and gank his teammates" town.
>>48102381
>I bet he's fabulous.
Definitely, he's the noble scholar son of a major house in the story, who while being useless in combat, is adorably naive, well-read, and also the main love interest.
Until he's suddenly not useless in combat. They are the definition of a power couple.
>>48103018
I'll also be able to actually do things with my Dexterity out of combat, have high initiative without spending a feat for THAT, and have good AC.
>>48103072
>have high initiative without spending a feat for THAT,
Not until like level 15 you won't.
>>48103081
High Dexterity = naturally high initiative
>>48102976
>Bullshit. People just like playing 6-13 for the sake of builds, which is what people like 3.5 for.
No, people avoid it like the plague in my experience to avoid rusty dagger shanktown random deaths.
>Amazing retort. You've convinced me - I'm fireballing my level 2 party. Thanks 4chan
That's a third level spell, idiot. No one suggested meteor swarm either. AOE attacks scale too. Just because the concept of AOE is appropriate at all levels doesn't mean EVERY AOE is appropriate at all levels
Nice slippery slope
>No it doesn't unless you mean that in the most abstract possible sense
Welcome to Abstractville, Abstractlovania.
Yes, spending resources (meta or financial) on one set of equipment over another depletes your effectiveness at what the second set does compared to if you had bought it.
Second, it doesn't just apply to purchases or requested rewards. It applies to class choices, features, stat choices and others that COULD BE SPENT ON OFFENSE.
This game is not one that involves tanking as an effective class (barring some series AOO warder shenanigans).
The best option is always to kill your opponents as fast as possible.
Since AC covers 1/6 (1/8 depending on measurement) defensive choices, you are almost always better off (after a certain point) pumping your offensive approach, because that will practically always work.
>Similarly, good saves or spell resistance don't save you from regular weapone attacks.
Literally no one here is telling you to go saves or spell resistance instead of AC. Tanking in general sucks after a certain point, because it's not efficient.
>>48103148
>The best option is always to kill your opponents as fast as possible.
Let this meme die please.
>>48103191
>let the truth die
>waaa I don't like something IT MUST BE A MEME
>>48103191
Crying about facts isn't going to stop them from being facts.
>>48103191
Last three lines of defense:
>"I hope I roll high enough"
Saving throws
>"I hope they don't roll high enough"
AC, Spell Resistance, CMD
>"I hope I have enough health"
Good luck
The best ways of actually playing defensive in Pathfinder do not involve the classic fantasy 'tank' attributes. You should be flying, invisible, incorporeal, and ideally, able to teleport away at the drop of a hator not there in the first place
>>48103242
>You should be flying, invisible, incorporeal, and ideally, able to teleport away at the drop of a hat or not there in the first place
/pfg/ has to wind up playing level 3-9, where it's hard to get all of those as a tier 3 character.
>>48103314
Best line of defense: mobility aka "can't hit what you can't reach" (flight, teleportation)
2nd line of defense: immunities aka "can't hurt what you can't hurt at all" (energy immunity, etc)
3rd line of defense: concealment aka "can't hit what you can't see" (invisibility)
4th line of defense: incorporeal aka "can't hit what you can't hurt" (incorporeal form)
5th line of defense: miss chance aka "can't hurt if you can't hit" (darkness, blink, etc)
6th line of defense: AC & Dodge aka "can't hit if you can't roll high enough"
7th line of defense: DR and SR aka "can't hurt if you can't roll high enough"
8th line of defense: Saves aka "I hope I can roll high enough"
Last line of defense: HP aka "oh fuck"
You don't need high level spells though. Snapleafs and Ghost syrups do the job just as well.
Remember that and you're golden in any fight.
>>48103428
>Snapleaf
Errata.
>Ghost Syrup
Ghost Syrup + Amulet of Grasping Souls = 27,000 gp, way out of the price range of a level 3 character
>>48103021
>Yes it does. Spending class resources, permanent or otherwise, feats, and magic items on AC means you can't spend them on offense. Getting a baseline effective AC is fine, but focusing on it is shit and is a one-way trip to "everyone ignore this retard and gank his teammates" town.
It's a bit surreal to crack a joke about someone being about to make a silly argument, and then they actually make it in response to you, unironically. Like I literally just said it for you and you said it again, almost as if you didn't see it there.
It's not that hard to get AC and it's not that expensive. Offensive power comes easily in a build, and it seldom needs to be item dependent. The right kind of Barbarian does thousands of damage on a charge, what weapons, wands, or potions he bought are pretty irrelevant in such a build. Spend the gold on AC if you want and it will be a perfectly sound decision. The fuck does it matter that you spent all your money at AC at level 4? Do you realize the exponential increase in wealth each level typically brings? Whatever you spent at level 4 is utterly irrelevant to the wealth you have at level 8. Do I think you should spend all your gold on AC? Of course not. But there's no reason to go acting like AC is some sort of dumbfuck trap.
>"everyone ignore this retard and gank his teammates
Of all the things... This is a phenomenon generously addressed in 3.x/pf. There are soooo many abilities to get around this, it's not a problem at all. One feat at level 1 can give you the permanent, persistent effect of imposing a -4 penalty on any nearby enemy who attacks anyone but you. Then there's a dozen different flavors of "attack of opportunity for people attacking your allies".
>>48103314
I never said it would be achievable for everyone. Only that it was close to the ideal set-up purely defensively (though obviously all of those have offensive benefits as well; invisibility = flatfooted, incorporeal = ignoring armor/nat armor, flight = new angles of charge, high ground anakin etc)
It may be difficult by yourself, but it's worth looking into as a party. Flight and invisibility are easy for that.
Also energy immunity, I forgot immunities to what you can get.
>>48103686
>One feat at level 1 can give you the permanent, persistent effect of imposing a -4 penalty on any nearby enemy who attacks anyone but you.
What feat is that?
>>48103148
>No, people avoid it like the plague in my experience to avoid rusty dagger shanktown random deaths.
Your experience is wrong. Ever hear of ECL 6?
> Anonymous 07/03/16(Sun)23:10:56 No.48103148▶>>48103191
>>48102976 (You)
>Bullshit. People just like playing 6-13 for the sake of builds, which is what people like 3.5 for.
No, people avoid it like the plague in my experience to avoid rusty dagger shanktown random deaths.
>Amazing retort. You've convinced me - I'm fireballing my level 2 party. Thanks 4chan
That's a third level spell, idiot. No one suggested meteor swarm either. AOE attacks scale too. Just because the concept of AOE is appropriate at all levels doesn't mean EVERY AOE is appropriate at all levels
Nice slippery slope
Yes, it is a third level spell. It's the most famous third level spell in existence. Why would your first thought be "this guy must not know what level fireball is" and not "this guy must be referring to a common, conventional encounter in which there's an enemy who is a higher level than the party".
Also... Don't try to namedrop logical fallacies, it makes you sound like a faggot.
>This game is not one that involves tanking as an effective class (barring some series AOO warder shenanigans).
Yes it is - there's just less options for tanking. AC is harder to come by than damage, and so it's more ignored, everyone hoping to kill the other guy before he can take a hit. That's why they call it rocket tag.
But guess what? A lot of the cheese AC builds are direct counters to the cheese damage build. Because it's easy to get AC to touch and flat footed.
>Since AC covers 1/6 (1/8 depending on measurement) defensive choices, you are almost always better off (after a certain point) pumping your offensive approach, because that will practically always work.
It's easier to pump offense. Perhaps it's a generally better course of action.
This is an entirely separate argument from saying that pumping AC is some sort of dumbfuck trap.
>>48103759
Find it yourself hahahahahaha
HAHAHAHAHA
I'll give you a hint: it's 3.5, and not setting-specific. Happy hunting
>>48103775
>A lot of the cheese AC builds are direct counters to the cheese damage build.
No, they're not.
Why?
Because to get AC to the point where you can 'handle' a Barbarian who's aiming to fuck you in the ass, and by 'handle' I mean 'not die instantly', you have to invest everything you've got into AC, and you WILL lose a protracted fight against them. This is not an opinion.
>>48103775
good god I fucked that formatting so hard I may as well have lost the argument
>>48103794
Martial Stance for Iron Guard's Glare requires 2 feats and doesn't help as much as you think it does. Enemies aren't encouraged to hit you, -4 or not.
Thicket of Blades is a much better 'tanking' stance and that's because it makes an AoO spammer viable.
>>48103021
But what if you're a Paladin or a Cleric and you're mainly a buffer/healer?
There's got to be some way to be a significant threat other than being LOTS OF DAMAGE.
>>48103833
Save or Die
>>48103804
>No
Yes
>Why?
Because they can't hit you and you can hit them.
>Because to get AC to the point where you can 'handle' a Barbarian who's aiming to fuck you in the ass, and by 'handle' I mean 'not die instantly', you have to invest everything you've got into AC, and you WILL lose a protracted fight against them. This is not an opinion.
No I won't. This is pretty narrow knowledge of the system... You really can't concieve someone with AC too high for the Barbarian to hit, who would be able to hurt the Barbarian? Are you absolutely sure you want to commit to this?
>>48103850
>This is pretty narrow knowledge of the system...
No, I'm pretty sure it's better than yours, considering what you're fucking arguing. It's far easier and less costly to boost an attack bonus than it is AC.
>>48103870
>It's far easier and less costly to boost an attack bonus than it is AC
Yeah, I just said that didn't I?
But the claim you just made was a bit different from that, wasn't it?
Something having to do with the AC build vs the damage build... Can you refresh my memory so we can get back on track?
>>48103906
>Yeah, I just said that didn't I?
Then think about the logical implications of it for more than half a nanosecond.
>tfw level 20 Daring General
>tfw my 3 cohorts are level 16 Daring Generals
>tfw their 6 level 12 cohorts are a variety of characters with leadership
>tfw their 6 level 10 cohorts are more characters with leadership
>tfw their 6 level 8 cohorts are more characters with leadership
My GM, when I brought this to him, has allowed it for the short (10 session or so) level 20 campaign.
So I am bringing with me:
>1 level 20
>3 level 16
>6 level 12
>6 level 10
>6 level 8
>8 level 6
>14 level 5
>38 level 4
>47 level 3
>92 level 2
>1140 level 1
How do I maximize the use of these guys? The level 16 cohorts have the be either Daring Generals or Esquires. The level 12s can be any full BaB class. The others can be of any class. I'm thinking the spread being the following:
>Daring General (Me) (20)
>2 Esquires (16)
>1 Daring General (16)
>1 Barbarian (12)
>1 Bloodrager (12)
>1 Unchained Monk (12)
>1 Paladin (12)
>1 Ranger (12)
>1 Fighter (12)
>1 Instructor Wizard (10)
>1 Nobility Domain Cleric (10)
>1 Alchemist (10)
>1 Warpriest (10)
>1 Witch (10)
>1 Druid (10)
Not sure on the level 8 ones, might as well grab more magic I suppose.
The bulk of the followers are warriors because all the ones from me and my cohorts have to be, the others are various other NPC classes.
>>48103921
Okay.
Thinking...
Oh, would you look at that - I'm still right. Ha!
>>48103804
Actually it is really easy to fuck AC in the ass at high levels, especially as an Alchemist, to have absolutely silly numbers without heavy investment.
>>48101204
Has anybody leaked the Little Red Goblin Necropunk setting material yet?
>>48104016
This. at 6th level, my Aegis / Soulknife is dicking around with 30 AC, DR 2 and +3 to all saves.
>>48103998
Here is one of the groups:
>Esquire (Medical Staff/Support Staff/Siege Engineers)
Siege Division:
>Wyrm Sniper Gunslinger
>>Seige Mage
>>>Grenadier
>Supprt/Medical
>Hospitaler Paladin
>>Hedge Witch
>>>Forge Priest Warpriest
>Esquire (Foot Soldiers/Scouts)
>Battle Scout Ranger
>>Nature's Fang Druid
>>>Bounty Hunter
>Steelblood Bloodrager
>>Battle Oracle
>>>Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer
>Daring General (Cavalry/Heavy Infantry)
>Drill Sergeant Fighter
>>Crusader Cleric
>>>Divine Commander Inquisitor
>Mounted Fury Barbarian
>>Wild Caller Summoner
>>>Packmaster Hunter
Something like this. I'm bringing a total of 1361 bodies with me.
>>48101906
Your DM was terrible, and running a game is mostly a matter of will and making shit up once you have the basics down.
>>48103191
That's...actually how it works, though?
At low levels you do NOT want fights to go long. Long fights might drain resources, of which you have very few, and every attack roll you allow to come at you has another 5% chance of being the unavoidable crit that is all too often instant death in the first three or so levels and still hurts like a bitch for a few levels after.
At higher levels, the more actions you leave your opponents, the more opportunities they have to hit you with something nasty and find something you're not defended against.
There is basically never an advantage to prolonged combats in Pathfinder. Against weapon-users, letting them keep getting off attacks means eventually they'll get a crit or use a maneuver that really puts you in the soup, while trying to run a mage out of spells is like saying the guy with an uzi won't be so smug after he's had the opportunity to empty his magazine in your general direction. Yeah, you MIGHT be alive and have the upper hand when he's out of bullets but you have to be a lot luckier than the other guy for that to happen.
>>48101476
>Whats the point? With that kind of wealth and gear, you're not really struggling as an adventurer.
If you think "struggling as an adventurer" is the point of the game, Pathfinder is absolutely TERRIBLE choice of system for you.
>>48104395
Only if your DM is too Monty Haul
>>48101204
why are some classes banned? or rather, character archetypes
Are there any options to sort of cheat death in stead of bringing someone back to life in Pathfinder like Close Wounds from 3.5? I know about Breath of Life but it just doesn't cut it because of its wording.
>>48104613
CANTRIPS
>>48104623
Sometimes for the sake of the theme. Usually, though, its because the GM doesn't want to bother figuring out how to incorporate things
>>48104724
Graverisen feat
If someone was to modify most feats, how would that interact or interfere with current classes/creatures and so on?
>>48105008
Most likely quite a lot, but you'll need to be much more specific to get a real answer.
>>48105039
For example, consolidating feats and making feat trees into tiers within the single feat.
>>48105128
It depends heavily on how you do it.
Do you mean something like this?
https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/3.5e_Scaling_Feats
>>48104813
Thanks, but the reason I was wondering is because there are no resurrection-like spells in our campaign. So Graverisen won't work I'm afraid, though I had never heard of it before and I like the idea of the feat. Might use this in another campaign. Also, all options are welcome but spells would be preferred if there are any.
>>48105147
Yeah, something like that. I suppose you'd need a caveat stating said modified feat works similarly to the old feat.
>>48105160
Shawl of Lifekeeping is a cheap option.
Means you have no cloak of resistance and will get fucked over every other way though.
>>48105160
extra lives
[horrifically overpowered]
You are just hard to kill.
Benefit: Your character can come back
from the dead, with no penalty, three times
in its total career. This happens at the end of
whatever encounter you died in, unless that
would cause your character to immediately
die again (such as if your body was dropped
into a pool of lava). In that case, you return
to life at some safe location within a week,
at the GM’s discretion. If you think your
character is likely to be raised quickly and
easily, you may choose not to use this ability
when you die, in which case it does not
count against your three total uses of this
feat.
Special: This feat can be taken more
than once. (Although, really, you need to
take Toughness if you’re dying that often.
Or maybe Dodge. Or just stand closer to the
cleric.) Each time you take it, the number of
times your character may freely return from
the dead increases by three.
Genius Guide to Horifically Overpowered Feats. It's in the Trove.
>>48105220
This is neat, thanks I might be able to inscribe it as a magical tattoo, thus being able to keep a cloak of resistance.
>>48105241
Awesome, but I don't think my DM will aprove this. Thank you though, I will keep it in mind nonetheless.
Are there more options though?
Is the teisatsu vigilante the new unchained ninja?
I think is a really good archetype
>>48105923
It would be better if you could take the ninja trick thing more than once ever.
>>48106154
teisatsu vigilante ha only one less trick.
>>48105923
Is this you? http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2trkm?Is-the-Teisatsu-Vigilante-the-unchained-ninja
Have you looked at the vigilante stalker by DSP?
>>48106715
yes it's me.
So let me get this straight. The vigilante is a class designed for social/intrigue/politics-heavy games... where the party has a few minutes of prep time before each fight.
When does this ever happen?
>>48106772
Prep time in a normal game is already heinously limited most of the time, this doesn't ever occur.
Vigilantes should get full BAB.
Y/N?
>>48106785
Then why are wizards and clerics tier 1?
>>48106754
Not a native English speaker?
>>48106864
Avengers should get d10 HD
What makes the vigilante good and why is it so damn popular?
I'm not familiar with Spheres of Power and am jumping in to a game with two sphere-casters soon (no idea what they're going for; far as I can tell they aren't heavily optimizing). We have a few martials already and a rogue with dumped intelligence, any suggestions on something to fill out the party? Front-liners are a paladin (Sacred Servant) and Barbarian (Going down beast totem path).
I expected the rogue to be useless if he ever even shows up to sessions (which he probably won't) but don't want to relegate myself to UC Rogue TWF trapfinding duty.
L1 Start, 20pt, No 3pp sans SoP
>>48106989
Well, sounds like the basics are covered...
If you want to fill a spot magic-wise, you'll need to find out what those spherecasters are going for, since every class has access to all the spheres.
So... Paladin, Barbarian, Rogue, Two unidentified spherecasters with unidentified focuses, and then you? That right?
>>48106865
The wizards prep for all fights days in advance. Clerics, at the sign there might be a fight, gobble up so many spells they turn into shining, laser shooting horror shows.
>>48107026
That's right. I've think one character is going for the Armorist SoP class, and another is doing some conjuration dabbling. I don't expect the rogue to show up to games often enough for him to be fully considered.
Being relegated to skillmonkey would be awful, but another frontliner isn't going to be that useful. I understand that spherecasting is pretty balanced with only a few exceptions, and is "more balanced" than standard 9th level casting in Pathfinder, but I don't want to choose a class based on assumptions on a system I know nothing about.
I know I could just pick whatever and not give a shit about the roles of other PCs, but I'd like to remain useful in combat without being just another meatshield.
>>48106865
Armchair optimization, not real games. The possibility of having the right spell for every situation is often confused with always having it; the two are not the same.
>>48106154
But you can? I mean. You should be able to, there's no reason you shouldn't.
>>48106989
Ask 2hu how to make strong shit in Spheres.
>>48107061
Well you could play an Investigator, though they suck in combat before level 4.
>>48107061
Spheres is actually fairly balanced. Conjuration tips it somewhat, and Weather is either useless or overpowered.
Armorists are a little low-powered, but the others are great. Shifters are aces. Mageknights are swanktastic. Elementalists make shit explode real nice.
Especially with material from the Destruction Handbook, Elementalists can get pretty nice blasting power, and their class features also give them things like extra combat feats, evasion, a flat bonus to AC, extra movement modes...
>>48107116
Conjuration isn't bad if you ban its advanced talents.
Weather is great for NPCs.
Looking at Marksman; the Kaigun replaces (Evade Arrows +1) while the Shroud replaces (Evade Arrows). Is it possible to combine these two archetypes?
>>48107159
Shroud replaces evade arrows completely, so no, they're not compatible.
>>48106989
If your GM allows caster level increases from Paizo sources to stack, you could perhaps play a Conjuration- or Destruction-specialized incanter and destroy the opposition with either a superpowered conjured companion or ~5d6 damage destructive blasts.
Failing that, you could play an Alteration-focused incanter who disables enemies using Aquan Transformation, Animal Mind, Mass Alteration, and Ranged Alteration; drawbacks from the Alteration Handbook playtest should help such an enemy-to-fish build.
Remember that as an incanter, for only one specialization point, you can acquire the Conversion inquisition and then use your Intelligence or Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for all Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.
Yet another option would be a hedgewitch (spiritualism tradition, triple goddess), a d8 HD, 3/4 BAB, 6 base skill point, potentially Intelligence-based, full caster for three spheres (Death, Fate, and Life) who can acquire new magic talents on the fly to adapt to any given situation.
>>48107061
Sphere Bard or Small with the War and Divination Spheres could be good
>>48106874
Yep, just like the average brit
>>48107116
>>48107026
Sort of update: one of the spherecasters is a Fey Adept dabbling in some illusion stuff, the other is (I believe) an Armorist dabbling in conjuration and getting a summon at 1st level.
With the exception of conjuration, I've not heard anybody complain about SoP being anything but balanced (for the most part). I'm just worried that I'll make an Oracle, or a Cleric or an Arcanist and end up not being able to contribute as much in combat or stepping on their toes.
>>48107098
Being able to help out with skills would be nice, but I'm not sure I'd remain useful in combat with there being a Paladin and a Barbarian present, and the buffing, while nice, isn't going to be enough to keep me useful.
I appreciate the SoP recommendations but I don't think I have the time to learn the system right now, but it is an interesting one that I've heard really good things about.
>>48107208
>triple goddess
Ew. I always house rule it to replace both traditions instead
>>48107231
When in doubt, Bard, Alchemist, and Small can be good additions to any party
>>48107231
Ahh, fair enough. Spheres is just IN the game, as opposed to what you want to do?
Righto, righto.
... Cavalier maybe? Challenge would let you keep up with the other guys for damage, and they'd appreciate some teamwork feats you could grant. You said you didn't want another frontliner, but the option is there. Maybe bard?
>>48107208
Hey 2hu have you considered not suggesting broken cheese builds relying on system loopholes and unpublished material as good ideas for players new to the subsytem? Or would it kill you to not try to ruin someone's game for once?
>>48107335
>player wants strong combat and strong skills
>suggest builds with strong combat and strong skills
>DON'T SUGGEST THAT
?????????
>>48107264
>>48107254
Bard is sounding more and more like the best option. Longspear + BoAK will at least feel like I'm helping.
>>48107346
Consider Pathfinder Chronicler and Aid Another.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fqG6GMiyfn9dfVMpZN1hdIovZ46FLE2ofGqS_RqSQ7Q/edit?pli=1
>>48107208
>should help such an enemy-to-fish build.
Reminder that turning enemies into animals with Alteration essentially does little except change their limbs and movement.
A Fish is still capable of Initiating or casting as much as it wishes, and its a lot more talent intensive waste of time when you could instead just use either use Fate spphere for debuffs or just do some Darkness stacking with about two-three Darkness types of choice and Lingering Darkness with fewer wasted talents on something your sphere wasn't designed to do.
>>48107339
Did you actually read the builds he suggested?
>abuse loophole where two subsystems butt up against each other to stack caster level increases well beyond expected
>abuse unpublished talents and drawbacks to spend every combat turning enemies into retarded fish in the hopes that they suffocate
>triple goddess
>goddamn triple goddess
>everyone knows that's supposed to be both your traditions
>>48107442
>turning enemies into retarded fish in the hopes that they suffocate
The funny thing is, because of how Alterations work they probably won't suffocate at all with how the Aquan Transformation is worded.
2hu has gone full retard
Guys, I need some creative advice
I'm working on a homebrew Initiating archetype for the Swashbuckler (I know, don't question that bit) based around using whips and other whip-like weapons, but I'm drawing a blank on a good name.
Any ideas?
Guys, I'm building a lvl10 synth summoner, doing the bite with trip at 15 ft, 4 claws at 10 ft shtick, and I was wondering if it would br worth it to vmc in rogue for sneak attack damage. Does it apply to all my attacks? Is it worth the feat loss? What would you guys suggest? I can use anything on the d20pfsrd site.
>>48107487
Dominatrix?
>>48107461
You mean Spheres DOESN'T give save-or-die at 1st level? Shocker.We've had this conversation with him before. He refuses to understand how Alteration works.
>>48107507
I was thinking less kink and more Zorro
>>48107426
>>48107511
>With the exception of Blank Form (detailed below), placing a form on a creature causes that creature’s physical body to change into that of another creature. The target gains the listed number of limbs and loses all others. The target loses any extraordinary or supernatural abilities, natural attacks, and movement types dependent on their original form (darkvision, scent, wings, claws, etc.) and gains the listed benefits in their place. Alternate sources of physical traits (such as a dragon sorcerer’s ability to grow claws) still function. In addition, the target’s equipment melds into their new form, causing them to lose their armor and shield bonuses and the ability to pull any item from a backpack or belt. They also cannot activate magic items (although constant bonuses from magic items still remain).
>You may grant the form of a swimming animal or magical beast with your shapeshift. The form has a head, fins, and no arms or legs. The target gains low-light vision and a 20 ft Swim speed which improves by 20 ft for every 5 caster levels. The target gains the Amphibious subtype and the ability to breath underwater. The target also gains a bite attack (Primary, 1d6, 1d4 small), Blindsense 30 ft (which only functions in water), and a +2 natural AC bonus, which increases by 1 for every 5 caster levels.
The only speed the victim is left with is a 20-foot swim speed. Other forms list down land speeds, but Aquan Transformation does not.
If a target is transformed into a Medium-sized fish on land, there is little they can do but flop around in their space and use either spell-like abilities or verbal/somatic component-less spells or sphere abilities.
At no point have I ever stated that the target suffocates, and I must wonder how you had drawn such a conclusion.
>>48107487
Literally the Privateer.
>>48107569
>use either spell-like abilities or verbal/somatic component-less spells or sphere abilities.
or PoW manuevers that allow for supernatural movement and attacks if they get close enough
Veiled Moon Trout Attack Squad GO!
Or heck, if the enemies have a caster in their party they can just use Slipstream or something similar and allow their fishfriend to swim on over and maul your silly caster
>>48107569
>gains the Amphibious subtype
You're fucking retarded.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Amphibious-Ex-
>Creatures with this special quality have the aquatic subtype, but they can survive indefinitely on land.
>CAN SURVIVE INDEFINITELY ON LAND
Goddamn fucking autistic piece of shit, take your dumbass builds and shove them up your 2D-obsessed ass.
Hello, /pfg/!
How was your weekend? Did you have a good session?
>>48107624
Nevertheless that DOES reduce the fishy's options quite a bit, and is hilarious to see even (or *ESPECIALLY*) when countered in the ways you've listed.
>>48107631
Anon, he's literally saying that.
>At no point have I ever stated that the target suffocates, and I must wonder how you had drawn such a conclusion.
The thing it does is remove their ability to leave their space or use arms.
>>48107631
He just said that, retard.
>>48107631
2hu didn't say anything about them dying from the change.
Thing is, you're a fish. Now go grab that falcata and critfish like you...
>fish
Oh.
>>48107571
Which is about using Sword and Gun and has nothing to do with whips.
This archetype will be EXPLICITLY about whips, giving them support, and making them actually useful on something that isn't a Magus
>>48107658
He's lying. He's claimed they suffocate multiple times before, he's just backpedaling because he's been called out on it again.
>He doesn't have an all-human party
>>48107624
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/systems-and-use
>First and foremost, to initiate a stance or maneuver, you must be able to move.
A fish on land has no movement speed available and therefore cannot initiate maneuvers.
>>48107657
The thing is though, just about every class that isn't a trash Paizo martial has some kind of answer against it and for adapting to the situation.
Plus, wasting your entire early build and talents on this shitty one-trick pony is idiotic since other spheres and builds can be just as effective debuffers and battlefield controllers with fewer dedicated talents, thus allowing you to do other things aside from spam Ray O' Tuna
>>48107738
Move means being able to actually move ones body, as in they aren't being held by effects such as Hold Person, which you can still mostly do as a fish. You are willingly misconstruing the wording to mean something its not meant to.
>>48107738
"Being able to move" means not being paralyzed or dazed or shit. Not having a movement speed.
>>48107764
If you stack a bunch of the new drawbacks from Alteration Handbook, you only need one talent.
>>48107710
What if we want an all-Seascarred Skinwalker party?
