Sorin did nothing wrong.
Nigga did some things wrong tho.
>>48083481
Everything bad happening can be directly tied back to him being too much of a condescending ass to Nahiri. He could have just told her that he was tired from making an angel and a giant ass chunk of silver made to imprison demons. Or he could have sucked it up and left for 10 minutes to check the hedrons.
But no, he had to act like a douche which provoked Nahiri to fight so he sealed her away, meaning she wasn't there to stop Elf Hitler from awakening the Eye of Ugin meaning the Eldrazi got free, meaning Nahiri was fucking pissed when she got out and devoted all her energy to exacting revenge on Innistrad.
It's 100 percent his fault.
Sorin did something wrong, and should be punished
Nahiri also did something wrong, and should be punished
Stake the first, shatter the other, and then tell WotC to stop being edge-lords in their narrative decisions.
>>48085559
/thread
>>48083481
Sorin did plenty wrong. Nahiri did too.
Attempting to portray one of them as good and one as evil is completely retarded because good/evil has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Sorin and Nahiri both are just being people. Irrational, emotional, arrogant and spiteful people, who are fighting like people fight, except that they both have vast magical powers, and don't seem to realise or care that their petty squabbling has massive effects on the world around them. So... Typical Oldwalkers, basically.
>>48085559
Nothing wrong with ambiguous morality.
It's just that up until now WotC have been pretty unambiguous with their stories, so the sudden switch in narrative style has led to the massively retarded fanbase being very confused and screaming at each other because people are interpreting the characters differently, and we can't have that now, can we? God forbid, they attempt to add actual depth to the fucking thing.
Why even fucking bother. Fuck complex narrative, right? Let's just make a program to string random sentences together for card lore and forget about settings and such.
>>48083481
Sorin did a lot wrong. So did Nahiri. I just wish that it didn't feel like their characters were twisted around for it to happen.
>>48085873
When that 'ambiguous morality' and general arrogance leads to the nigh-destruction of a plane of reality, one might feel the need to be judgmental.
But otherwise, you're right on the money
>>48086006
>When that 'ambiguous morality' and general arrogance leads to the nigh-destruction of a plane of reality, one might feel the need to be judgmental.
Certainly, but it also serves to highlight exactly why Oldwalkers are bad news for anything that gets caught in their wake, and just because the stakes are high doesn't mean the characters themselves are devalued.
I mean, I can see the point about Innistrad's atmosphere being disrupted, but... Eh. Hard to say one way or the other. They seem to be preserving it as much as possible while still taking it in a new direction, which I can respect.
I think WotC have done pretty well this time around, by their usual standardswhich are about as high as the pothole in Satan's wine cellar. Still, no need to dwell on failings I guess.
>>48083481
100% agreed
>>48086106
The new direction of right into the shitter?
People may still be alive, but the plane is fucking dead without Aylvican.
>>48085534
Nahiri was a moron for even trying to fight him.
>well, Sorin's still a dick
>I got it
>I'll pull a blade on him and prove my worth, I also won't tell him that that was the intention and allow him to interpret my attempts at his life, surely he'll know what I'm doing
>woooooooow he actually locked me up
>>48083481
Just like Hitler!
>>48085500
This bitch rite here gets it
>>48086006
Even without the godlike powers of an Oldwalker (and both of these individuals WERE at one point in their lives Oldwalkers), when you have the perspective of a Planeswalker, it's very easy to forget about the mere mortals once in a while.
>>48086257
How is this not 95% of Oldwalker fights and encounters in the history of MtG? Nahiri's lost touch with "normal" people. Sorin as as well. Ugin has, Liliana mostly has (it's not that she LIKES Jace, she just needs him to need her like a typical tsundere), Bolas certainly has... name a walker, odds are that if they were an Oldwalker they aren't quite normal any more.
>>48085941
This.
They both act straight up stupid in order for this all to happen.
>>48085534
Everything could also be directly tied to nahiri being a dumb shit.
Give the nigga a minute to relax and he would have taken his phone off of airplane mode. We know he did afterwards, seeing as he was on zendikar fixing shit.
>>48088601
Wizards is still relearning how to write characters instead of flesh covered plot devices. Give them time.
>>48088628
The problem was that, even after he had been informed of the situation, Sorin was still putting himself and Innistrad before his promise to Nahiri for the sake of Zendikar and by extension the multiverse.
This isn't the sort of obligation you get to pass up on because its inconvenient for you, like because you are le tired.
Sorin's made a mistake by accidentally blocking the signal, but what made this into a PROBLEM was that he remained aloof and condescending as fuck about the whole thing instead of owning up to it, or making even a token effort to hold up his end of the bargain.
And him putting Nahiri in the Helvault goes way beyond overreaction. These were Oldswalkers, remember. This was, by all accounts, a casual game of Magic: The Gathering to establish pecking order as far as Nahiri was concerned and Sorin was so ass-blasted that he might actually lose that he sealed away the one goddamn person in the multiverse he needed around to do a job for an intended duration of 'probably forever'.
>>48088740
Everything was alright.
Imagine the situation in an office:
>Sorin just finished the Sanderson project and he's just exhausted, He wants to unwind for a second
>Nahiri, who's overseeing the big Batemann account, vital to the company, storms into his office
>"There was a problem that I easily fixed but you gotta come check it out"
>Sure, just give me a minute
>"you've gotta come check on it immediately"
>I'll be there In like five seconds, just let me-
>"Don't make me smack your shit Sorin"
>>48083481
Did he fucking forget he sealed Nahiri in the Helvault? Seems weird that when the Eldrazi showed up his first thing was "go look for Ugin, who I don't know where he is" compared to "go to Nahiri, who I DEFINITELY know where she is".
>>48085782
>>48085873
To be fair, when one of them literally summons The Biggest Monster in the setting to destroy an entire universe and billions of lives because the other guy was kind of pissy to her - that kind of removes a lot of the moral ambiguity from it.
That said, it is refreshing to see a villain who's primarily white on the colour pie after a whole mess of evil black.
>>48088740
>ME ME ME
>I SOLVED THIS PROBLEM WHY WEREN'T YOU THERE FOR ME
>NAHIRI SMASH
it's almost like she blew up on him and he understandably told her to go fuck herself
>These were Oldswalkers, remember
and an oldwalker slinging spells at you immediately justifies locking them in the infinity prison.
>no she was just playing with him tee hee
threats and acts of violence only convince people that you're crazy and need to be locked up
>>48088826
In this analogy, I hope Sarkhan is the guy whose friend gets fired so he sleeps with the boss to get them un-fired.
>>48089117
I doubt nahiri being in the helavault was a thing until after the whole ugin plotline was drawn up.
>>48089146
I don't think you understand how Oldwalkers operated.
You know the axiom for wuxia movies, "Anything that even theoretically could result in a kung-fu fight, does?"
Thats what Oldswalkers did with magic fights. Because it was almost impossible to actually kill your opponent or indeed do anything other than temporarily inconvenience them, unless you were bringing out some really strong mojo or plot-tier bullshit. Because either side could teleport away from the fight at any time, their body had almost no impact on their actual health, and that's not even counting the layers and layers of defensive spells and contingincies Oldswalkers would inevitably build up.
You are thinking of this like Nahiri pulling a gun on Sorin. It isn't. Its more like pulling a water pistol. Nothing Nahiri threw at Oldswalker Sorin during that encounter could have actually killed him.
>>48089212
>It isn't. Its more like pulling a water pistol.
planeswalkers can kill each other with regular-ass knives, m8. It's extremely difficult for non-walkers to kill oldwalkers, but oldwalkers can kill each other just fucking fine.
Nahiri's just butthurt Sorin won on turn one against her jank-ass white weenie deck.
>>48088826
My impression of this was more like Soria just wrapped up the secret and personal pet project that he's going to submit to upper management to try to get a promotion, while Nah iris was working on the project they were supposed to be working on and she's wondering where the hell he's been. And when she finds him, he basically tells her to fuck off because she finished the project anyway and then locks her in the supply closet.
>>48089284
Sorin's project is just as legit, though. Neither Nahiri nor Sorin are working for a higher power giving them orders, and he had no knowledge of the Zendikar project going wrong. As far as he knew, he was totally free to do his own thing, having gotten no alarms from Zendikar.
Fact is, Nahiri solved the problem on her own, and Sorin didn't even say he wouldn't go with her - he said he couldn't go with here right then.
>>48089284
Sanderson is definitely a personal project, but after setting up the Batemann account with department-head Ugin and Sorin, the senior employee who was showing her the ropes, Nahiri became in charge of overseeing the account.
Because it's such a big project, they told her she could call on them anytime something went seriously wrong. Of course unless shit hits the fan their own work kinda takes precedent
>>48089226
>but oldwalkers can kill each other just fucking fine
More like "they can sometimes, occasionally, kill each other by delivering a fuckload of magic, usually in a surprise attack, since oldwalkers aren't actually flesh and blood but projections of a soul so a knife isn't going to do shit to a competent one".
A knife? Urza had his entrails continually dragged out of him for a solid chapter and it was just an inconvenience that kept him from reconstituting because he was distracted.
Fucking hell, a knife won't even kill half the Neowalkers if they're paying attention.
>>48083481
No walker, aside from commodore, has ever done anything right
>>48089442
Jace ignored Ugin, which led to two dead Eldrazi. Does that count as doing something right?
What about Bolas fixing the Madaran rift?
>>48089403
Not really, she asked him to come and he brushed it off, then she reminded him that he owed her one and he went off about how she can't tell him what to do and he could have killed her if he wanted.
>>48089458
He acted prideful, but he didn't say "nope, not coming, sort if out yourself." He was in the middle of explaining why he couldn't leave at that moment when she cut him off.
>>48089448
Jace didn't ignore Ugin, he just decided when Ob had undercut the capture plan that it was better to try to kill instead of let them go.
>>48089487
So when push came to shove, he ignored Ugin?
>>48083481
>Sorin did nothing INTENTIONALLY wrong.
FTFY. Dude had a string of accidents and fuckups so long, he's an honorary Stooge. Mr. Bill looks down on him, ok? They are renaming the Mr. Bean show "The Sorin Markov hour", alright?
>>48089442
Urza kinda did so many wrong things that he eventually ended up right.
Somehow.
>>48089499
Really, if he goes that long and creates that many accidental fuckups, isn't it more likely he's just an idiot?
>>48089508
>"Two wrongs don't make a right. But seventy-four thousand, six hundred and fifty-two wrongs do!"
>>48089442
Teferi... teferi tried. And in the end he did the right thing after all. Same with Freyalise and Windgrace, though they did come out dead because of it.
>>48085873
Go away. You're the kind of stupid fanboy that would get many upvotes on Reddit, though!
>>48089511
It's more like WotC has no idea how to write consistent characters.
It was initially meant to be 100% Nissa's fault that the Eldrazi got out. But then WotC realized they had shat on their strong elf womyn character, who they wanted to use as a big flagship for green, and hit the retcon button really hard. Now everyone in that situation just dropped thirty points of IQ for the Eldrazi to happen.
>>48089511
Sure, but you don't blame a retard for dropping his slushie in Walmart any more than you blame your dog for shitting on the floor; it's not HIS fault, someone should have taught him better or been closer by to control him. Perhaps our real blame should lie with his father from before his vamp-walker days?
>>48089543
>strong elf womyn character, who they wanted to use as a big flagship for green
Sweet Odin's beard, how I want them to do something with Garruk again, cleansed of corruption, and have him become the new flagship face of green, but that will never happen with Lilliana in the Jacetice League...
>>48089546
He had thousands of years to learn how not to shit on the floor. If he shits on the floor despite that, it's his own fucking fault when he gets put outside in the kennel for the night.
>>48089420
>A knife?
serra planeswalker was killed by a plain old knife
>muh urza
Most planeswalkers weren't fucking urza, who had embedded god damn thran artifacts into his skull. Get that into your dumbass head.
Sorin was not in a good state, and knew it. So when someone dangerous came swinging, he opened the doorway to nothingness instead of risking death. Overkill? Possibly. But as a selfish motherfucker, it would be stranger not to defend himself.
>>48088581
I agree with everything except your analysis of Bolas.
Dude is a tricolor ancient elder dragon. His motivations and mindset aren't supposed to be at all like normal humanity. I'm not even sure it's "out there" compared to dragons, given what we see in fantasy literature of some dragons' millennia long schemes...
>>48085873
>It's just that up until now WotC have been pretty unambiguous with their stories
Urza disagrees. Kamahl too. And many others.
>>48089538
>le reddit maymay
I hope you search for your keys for hours only to realise they were in your rear pocket, then have to rush to be on time for your job, be right on time and have your boss give you a funny look. Everyday.
>>48089587
Serra was stabbed and let herself die. She allowed it just like Nahiri allowed Sorin to break her arm when they were training, the difference being that Nahiri didn't know that she could fix her arm by thinking about it.
>>48089565
To be honest, I find Garruk incredibly boring at the best of times.
They should have followed through with Nissa's arc and give her genuine development, rather than just retconning her into a hippie chosen by Zendikar 2pure4u shitmuncher.
>>48089493
Ugin told him it was really important to keep the eldrazi on Zendikar, alive.
Shit happened and the Gatewatch managed to keep the eldrazi on Zendikar dead.
Half following the spirit dragon's request.
>>48089570
He's a tard without a wrangler, that's all.
Wait, who IS his tard wrangler? I mean, the Gatewatch are basically all each other's tard wranglers, (which is terrifying considering the implications) but who is supposed to be pulling the strings on these two complete morons? Is it Ugin? Do we forgive the two tards having a tard fight because their wrangler was kinda, sorta temporarily Dead, but not really thanks to Sarkhan's Marty McFly maneuver?
NAHIRI MUST DIE
>>48083481
Sorin may be facing Nahiri, whose definition of revenge is plane-wide genocide, may mean that he isn't doing as much wrong, but he did do a little wrong.
>>48089715
They're all puppets dancing to a tune, and a certain Elder Dragon planeswalker is the puppeteer. It was Bolas' plan to release the Eldrazi, after all. And the fact that he's been off screen for so long should actually be worrying, if anything.
>>48089715
>Is it Ugin?
Ugin's fucking useless
>can't beat bolas
>can't even make a new look other than bolas but ghost
>can't cast channel+fireball
>can't keep the eldrazi imprisoned
>can't even study them when they were imprisoned
>can't get the superfriends to listen to him
>doesn't even consider mediating between queen retardo and edge mcdarkness
khans was a mistake
>>48089749
I like that he did so by putting Sarkhan to guard them and telling him to make sure no one manages to get near. Smart move, Bolas.
>>48089790
Is there anything Sarkhan did not ruin?
>>48089802
Narset?
>>48089845
Either dead or robbed of her beliefs and refusing to fully planeswalk.
>>48089751
>queen retardo and edge mcdarkness
This is pretty accurate and a good representation of why I think Nahiri is the worst of the two
>>48089629
Urza, fair enough, but that came from a time when WotC actually knew how to tell a decent story.
>>48089957
Well she is the one that commits genocides on purpose because senpai didn't notice her, do I guess there's no real question there.
>muh oldwalker perspective
Doesn't make it any less horrifying.
>>48089629
Anything that happens pre-Lorwyn is noncanon as far as WotC is concerned so don't bother bringing up shit from that far back. It's gone, I loved it too but just let it go
>>48089996
It does make it understandably horrifying, though.
>>48089996
even without the genocide she kinda deserved it
>>48090054
No, it really doesn't, She actually revelad herself as a yandere maniac before even being Helvaulted. She didn't even try to save her own plane once she got out, she just went for Sorin, assuming he was the culprit without even bothering to find out the truth. Not for Ugin, only for him; even now that she is done with him, she doesn't even think of Ugin. it is clear that she gives no fucks about Zendikar, she is only angry because Sorin was mean to her and this is pretty poor writing.
>>48090100
Sure, but the point is she has very human reasons for doing what she does. Stupid, irrational and overly-emotional reasons.
Say it with me: Oldwalkers are FUCKED.
>>48090100
>>48090100
As far as she knows, her plane cannot be saved because Ugin very carefully led her, and Sorin, down a path of belief that it could not be, that the Eldrazi could not be killed, and she does not have the power to re-seal them on her own, coupled to Sorin's indifference last time she showed up. So yes, she went straight for Sorin.
Why not go for Ugin? Because Sorin was her teacher. Because she doesn't know how to find Ugin (remember, Sorin has a lot more experience walking and finding planes than she does, and he called it a backwater in the middle of nowhere at best, and Nahiri's method of searching involves finding "things that sound like Sorin" on a planar sense that would not be possible for Ugin given his coma state).
Yandere? Hardly. She doesn't love Sorin. Friend, sure, or that's what she thought, she just underestimated Sorin's nature of being a prick. If anything her story made it quite clear that she no longer saw him as her superior, but as an equal, she just needed to make him see that. And the only way their kind know how to do that is with a fight.
>>48090173
I dunno, I wouldn't really call it a fight.
It's a petty squabble magnified to plane-destroying levels. Nahiri barged into the house and started knocking shelves over and throwing china around, Sorin responded by hurling the TV remote at her head and shouting 'FOR FUCK'S SAKE WOMAN STOP'. We're still leading up to the fight proper.
>>48090200
>Nahiri barged into the house and started knocking shelves over and throwing china around, Sorin responded by hurling the TV remote at her head and shouting 'FOR FUCK'S SAKE WOMAN STOP'
You forgot to point out that Avacyn came charging in from the kitchen wielding a frying pan and Sorin's fetish of an apron and nothing else, metaphorically speaking, to smack somebody around the ears.
If Sorin imprisoned Nahiri in the hellvault, how did he not know where to find her?
>>48090247
I thought he deleted the knowledge along with the Eye of Ugin's location. He knew he deleted them and what he'd done by deleting them which is why he was guilty when Ugin asked. But he didn't know where she was.
I could have misread.
>>48090247
shitty writing adding nahiri into the plot after the fact
>>48090247
Becuse the hellvault broke and she left and before that because he obviously does not know how to get one person/entity from the hellvault
>>48090016
>The Riptide Project
>All those plot threads, like tears in the rain
I say we call the Zendikar trio the Ugingers.
Also, I'm waiting for Ugin to send Sorin and Nahiri to their rooms for this....
The Ugingers vs. The Jacetice League: Dawn of the Civil War of Juctice coming out when?
>>48090365
But Nahiri brought her friends over and trashed Sorin's room. How is that fair?
>>48090365
Ugingers would win (Hell, Sorin alone took on most of the Superfriends), and then immediately devolve into squabbles which destroy the plane that they were fighting on anyway.
It's like the Three Stooges except with nuclear weapons instead of stepladders.
>>48090378
Fair enough send Sorin to Nahiri's rooms and Nahiri to Sorin "s room
They can come out when they learn to play nicely with each other.
>>48089128
>entire universe
Just a plane. From her perspective, it was going to happen anyways because it was unleashed already. She just figured to kill innistrad first, not some unknown plane.
>primary white villain
Nigga, nearly all mtg villains are white.
Phyrexia, Kamigawa, theros to name a few had white aligned villians
>>48090365
We need a Legion of Doom, with all the unseen portions of the colors. White's crazy "I VILL HAFF ORDER!!!!" xenophobia, Blue's crazy riptide mad science, Red's "The Fury" level of destructive sadism and Green's unrelenting predation, all led by a calm, heartless Black with a goal of stopping the Gatewatch from interfering in any other plane's problems.
Mostly, I just want a mono blue walker that isn't a bishie poster boy and is concerned with doing mad science to see if he can, uncaring if he should. (Ludvic gains a spark, please?)
>>48090365
>I'm waiting for Ugin to send Sorin and Nahiri to their rooms for this
Why would anyone listen to ugin. Ugin's done jack shit to demand any kind of respect from anyone.
Even neowalkers don't give a fuck what ugin says, and neowalkers are all complete retards
>>48090471
Ugin reminds me of Uncle from the Jackie Chan cartoon, from early on, when he spoke in ancient prophecies and proverbs, and was ignored by younger Jade and Jackie.
>"You must contain the titans, young ones, for their fate and the fate of all the multiverse is contingent upon balance"
>Jacetice League: Never mind the old man, he didn't have ELF LASER RAILGUN POWER! Nissa, smoke em!!!"
>>48090456
>Ludvic
>Not delverman
>>48090527
my problem with ugin is he's had basically no leadup, but we're expected to view him as some fountain of wisdom
Even Multani had SOME buildup before getting shoved into that role.
Sorin did nothing.
>>48090540
>Delver: I need a human test subject...oh noes, I am a bug
>Ludvic: I'mma graft this werewolf into power armor!
>Everyone else: WHY?!
>Ludvic: I, uh...I don't understand the question?
>>48090456
Literally Tezzeret for blue and Obnix for black. Old Sarkhan for red. So, fuck off.
>>48090720
isn't shark boy in love with ugin now
Tibalt should be the red rep.
>>48083481
Everything Sorin has ever done has been wrong.
>>48090980
yeah, he shouldn't have let nissa or nahiri live
>>48089128
Did people just kinda sleep through the fact that New Phyrexia is primarily white, Heliod was the real bad guy of Theros, and all of the Tarkir dragons were evil including the white ones?
Why the fuck is it always treated as something new when the villain is white? It's not. You want fucking novelty, when's the last time we had a monogreen villain?
>>48089448
Bolas didn't so much close the Madaran rift as used it as a convenient dumping ground for some shit that annoyed him, which just so happened to close it in the process
>>48091102
vorniclexhee hee
would the lorwyn elves count?
I'm gonna be honest here, I miss the dominarian legends. Every new character I sort of like is ultimately just a watered down version of an older legend.
>>48091102
>when's the last time we had a monogreen villain
Nissa, pre-feminitist/sjw pandering turned her into a member of the hero's league.
>>48090671
Nono, he didn't graft a werewolf into power armor.
He grafted an ORDINARY wolf into power armor.
>>48091237
the only real hero in the league is gideon, to be frank. And even he's slowly mutating into a more safe and progressive form.
>elf fascist
>mind rapist
>pryomaniac terrorist
>literally evil, pacts with demons necromancer
>>48091102
While not monogreen, Atarka the Walking Natural Disaster is more green than red
>>48091262
>Journal Entry: The graft was succesful, and my creation...well, it's not important what it's doing right now or how many bodies are in its wake, what's important is IT WORKS!
>We are now ready to proceed to phase two. Just gonna have to figure out how to trap a werewolf now. I assume the crate will need to be bigger, I guess. This is so EXCITING!!!
>>48091404
Don't be daft. The wolf grafted to the power armor was the plan the whole time - that was what the dream was about, after all, and Ludevic is a man who pursues his dreams.
>>48091561
Science is about experimentation, and going through proper stages of testing. Ludvic is a man of SCIENCE, not like that cavalier delver; no, he dreamt of something, to be sure, but regular animals was only the first step. Grafted were-animals, grafted angels, grafted hellions and horrors...who knows what might be possible with SCIENCE!!! on our side.
>>48091714
Oh, and don't forget the sidebranches! There's a grafted wolf, why not a grafted graf mole, or a grafted gryf, or a grafted...whatever that thing is, pretty sure that's an animal.And then they combine
>>48091803
>"Doc, not to be a pain or nothing, but you got yer grafted mole, gorilla, wolf, jaguar, and wurm...and well, they sorta combined, and now they're going around kicking people with feet that give nasty wolf bites..."
>"Combination sequence worked, eh? But wolf was supposed to be arm...I need more parts and animals!"
