Apart from D&D, what are some must-have RPGs that a well-rounded roleplayer should play - or at least read - to have a good understanding of the world of RPGs?
In other words, what games would you include in a "RPGs 101" college course?
>>48059157
Pic for your question and let's forget about this thread even existing
Plus Bowie is dead and Conelly is older than he was back then
>>48059204
Has 4chins made you clinically retarded? It's a perfectly legitimate question and nothing is implied within it.
>>48059157
GURPS.
>>48059157
Something from the World of Darkness line, preferably VtM.
Shadowrun.
Call of Cthulhu.
Warhammer - Dark Heresy or something else in the line.
GURPS.
Something rules-light like FATE.
Something weird like Unknown Armies/Kult/Delta Green.
Rifts/Palladium. Seriously, it had a huge following and was quite influential once.
>>48059157
Reading an RPG is often very different from playing it. I'd say you should have done at least a one shot with an experienced DM to really get a system.
Off the top of my head I'd say to really know the world of RPGs, you should do Classic Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, FATE, Burning Wheel, Apocalypse World, Wild Talents or another ORE system, GURPS, Toon, Feng Shui, Savage Worlds, and maybe Primetime Adventures.
All of these systems are well designed, influential, or both.
You say you've done D&D, but bear in mind that modern WotC D&D is very different from TSR D&D. You should probably give OD&D or Basic a go at least once if you haven't done so already.
>>48059157
It depends on how games you think is a limit. In no particular order, just what comes to mind:
Travelller
Runequest
oWoD (probably vampire)
nWoD (just as a comparison to the above)
GURPS
FATE
Risus/Tristat/some other extreme rules light
Savage Worlds
Shadowrun
Call of Cthulhu
I'm sure I'm missing something, but that's a good starting point.
>>48059353
>Primetime Adventures.
I've never even heard of that and I've been gaming for 25 years. But your list is good.
>>48059235
>It's a perfectly legitimate question
If you want a shitstorm
>nothing is implied within it
How about this gem: Apart from D&D, what are some must-have RPGs that a well-rounded roleplayer should play
It's a bait so huge it's not even funny
>>48059445
>Apart from D&D
You seem to have a complete misunderstanding of what these words mean.
D&D is already assumed to be on the list, because it's so influential and dominant.
Get back to work, virt, you're not wanted here.
>>48059157
GURPS, HeroQuest, Shadowrun, Ars Magica, Unknown Armies, World of Darkness (I like Vampire but they're all good)
>>48059503
What's the difference between Runequest and HeroQuest?
>>48059532
Editions. Use the latest one (RQ6 iirc).
>>48059353
This guy should teach the class
>>48059157
Whatever you do, DO NOT put in Pathfinder, or if you do have be an example of how games SHOULDN'T be designed
also
>RPGs 101 college course
dafuq kind of college would ever allow such a class? sounds like something for dumb students to waste credit hours and tuition because they don't understand that college class-time is for study and learning and for you to actually get serious with what you both want and should be as a productive member of society once you graduate
>>48059353
>>48059376
Is this considered Classic Traveller?
https://www.amazon.ca/Traveller-Core-Rulebook/dp/0857441868/ref=pd_sim_14_1
>>48059532
They are completely different shit, but share the "default" setting of Glorantha.
Runequest is moderately crunchy game with strongly simulationist attitude, based on BRP - or rather the BRP was based on early Runequest.
Heroquest is light narrative game simmilar to FATE in it's philosophy but better executed.
>>48059582
Kind of but not really, it's an update of the system. Imo, Traveller has a lousy system anyway so it's probably better than the real classic version. Just be careful not to buy the d20 version, holy shit what a crock of fail, d20 can't do gritty and meshes not at all with the setting.
>>48059616
Oh, and despite Glorantha being default setting for both, Heroquest is completely "universal" system, while Runequest's universality is mostly limited to fantasy stuff.
>>48059157
In Finland, in addition to the different versions of D&D,
>Praedor
>Stalker the scifi rpg
>Call of Cthulhu
>Runequest
>Burning wheel
>Cyberpunk 2020
>Paranoia xp
>Twlilight 2000
>World of Darkness
>>48059616
>>48059632
Do the Runequest and Traveller core books contain the campaign setting as well, or are those separate books?
>>48059157
Eoris Essence
>>48059655
Early rpgs like that always contain everything you need in one book. D&D is pretty much the only game I know that you /have to/ buy multiple books before you can play it.
>>48059582
That's Mongoose Traveller, not classic. I personally prefer MongTrav over classic as far as mechanics go, but Classic obviously has more historical value if that's what you're looking for.
There have been a ton of different traveller versions over the years. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveller_%28role-playing_game%29
I would say the ones worth playing are Mongoose and Classic. The rest are just worse versions of the same and a few oddities (one of them is the Great Depression in space and went over so poorly it was later retconned out as a dream).
>>48059667
>dat sheet
I kek every tiem :^)
Although the sidebar of it does remind me: Pendragon should be on any list of "must-play" rpgs, if only for it's innovative personality mechanics (but also for it's generally superb rules and top notch setting).
>>48059655
In case of Runequest it depends on the edition, though even those that contain setting info it isn't very detailed in the core books.
Heroquest has actually "universal" and "Gloranthan" versions of the core book.
>>48059655
Mongoose Traveller has very little setting info in core (and is pretty close to a generic scifi system anyways). IIRC Classic has all the info in one book.
Oh look, summer burger threads started showing up.
GURPS
Call of Cthulhu
Vampire: The Masquerade
Cyberpunk 2020
Warhammer Fantasy (2nd edition)
Paranoia
Savage Worlds
Exalted
And if by chance you are not American - go make research on your own what's the most popular game from your own country.
>>48059204
I like this pic but you're a faggot
Fatal should be on the list to show how far rpgs can go.
It shouldnt be played, just read for the sake of seeing, like somoene checking that hash noise music genre exist and then moving on
>>48059831
No, if you want a comedy rpg try Synnibar or SenZar, those at least are a fun read. FATAL is not only awful, it's terribly boring, with endless tables and no art.
>>48059680
>>48059699
>>48059706
OK, thanks.
Is there a separate Glorantha setting book? I'm most interested in the settings.
>People seriously advocate even touching Burning Wheel
That game cause 2nd degree autism. A fucking doorstoper full of pointless shit.
>>48059380
It made a pretty big splash in the indie crowd when it showed up; Fiasco is kind of its offspring. It's basically a game that takes some of the more common methods used in television writing and mechanizes them, to make a "build your own tv show" rpg.
It's a fascinating exercise and is something I think should be played at least briefly if you're really into the theory end of rpgs. It has some neat ideas.
>>48059582
Here's Classic.
https://mega.co.nz/#F!DkdyQITY!Y1VxiiEtuqDwhHo5wEw65w
Grab the Traveller Book, as that's the all in one edition of the core rules. You may also want PDF related, as everyone used it back in the day. (So much so that this third-party houserule was made official in Megatraveller)
>>48059938
What's wrong with it?
>>48059914
There are a few of them, depending on edition.
Newest is most likely this one
>>48059157
GURPS, Fate, Deadlands, Call of Cthulhu, Shadowrun, Warhammer, Savage Worlds, anything from WoD (most likely Vampire)
>dat pic
It would be just softcorn with no real plot in it.
>>48059966
Not him, but personally I got quite interested by it's description, downloaded PDF, saw 600 fucking pages, realized it is all crunch as it has no dedicated setting, and was like "no, thanks".
>>48059966
I'm the guy who recommended it upthread. If I had to guess what he dislikes, I'd say that it's crunchy. Like REALLY crunchy. It's probably the crunchiest narrative system around.
I'd also say it's beautifully designed, a clockwork engine of interlocking bits that all combine to make a whole.
But you could probably go with Mouse Guard or Torchbearer, which use lighter versions of the main Burning Wheel rules.
>>48060015
Its setting is implied by the lifepath system, outside that it's up to you. It has a general Tolkien feel, moreso than D&D ever managed. Also the Elven Grief/Dwarven Greed/Orcish Hate mechanics really reinforce that Tolkien feel.
>>48059966
Too long, too much pointless stuff, too many tables, absolutely abysmal editorial work no matter the edition and printing, combat is broken in 90% of situations, setting is just meh.
And that's without mentioning the most important element - autistic subrules to subrules of underrules to subrules of rules, while being marketed as story-heavy game.
>>48060042
>Burning Wheel
>Nattative system
Pick one. It's just symulationist game, to the point of being obnoxious, pretending to being a storytelling system.
>>48060042
>I'd also say it's beautifully designed
The game is a fucking mess and you know about it all too well
>>48060071
What? It has tons of mechanics all aimed at emulating narrative structures. It's not simulationist at all -- it's chock full of game structures and narrative elements.
>>48060042
I didn't mean that I was put off by lack of fluff in the system. I was put off because without fluff, i realized that whole 600 fucking pages are going to be all crunch and that's way too much to make sense in my opinion.
>>48059204
>responding to anot shitpostwith an even bigger shitpost
>>48060117
I will give you a clue. If game is narrative, but the rules take more than 10 pages, it's not narrative at all. Burning Wheel is just 600+ pages of crunch. That's not how you make a narrative game.
>>48060117
>Narrative game
>Barely any setting
>Barely anything to narrate
>Barely any content
>570 pages of rules
Why are you so deluded?
>>48060135
You describe what you want and how you want to achieve it, then you roleplay it. The fact that it has a lot of in depth explanation does not reduce that in any way.
>>48060173
Then what for are all those rules then? They serve zero purpose and have no reason to exist. You either make a crunchy game for roll-playing or you make rule-light systems for extensive role-playing. You don't create a fucking brick of a book for narrative-driven game that consists of nothing but cruch. For fuck's sake, the game barely has any setting, but has half a chapter about bleeding.
Seriously, can't you see what you are doing here?
>>48060127
Yeah, that's legit, it's not an easy system to wrap your head around.
>>48060135
>If game is narrative, but the rules take more than 10 pages, it's not narrative at all.
Narrative is not a synonym for rules lite. The difference between a simulationist system and a narrative one is that the simulationist one tries to emulate a given reality, and lets the mathematical chips fall where they may. A narrative system tosses out impartiality and puts its thumb on the scale and pushes things towards interesting narrative outcomes.
For example, Dwarven Greed is a strictly narrativist mechanic. It mechanizes something that in a simulationist system would be left entirely up to roleplay in a freeform manner. Instead, the DM challenges the Dwarf player specifically, waving shiny things in front of him and forcing tests of the player's greed, pushing towards the bad end where the dwarf seals himself away in a vault with all his treasures and starves rather than risk letting someone else steal from him.
>>48060173
>You describe what you want and how you want to achieve it, then you roleplay it
I really, really wish BW worked like that.
>>48060209
Not any of the previous anon, but this post seals it for me.
You are a masochist.
You openly state all the flaws of the game, then proceed to say they are ok and perfectly fine, because that's just how it should be. Meanwhile, my experience with Burning Wheel tells that narrative game most definitely shouldn't require constant page-flipping. Want a narrative-driven game? Check Numenera. Want a monument to autism? Check Burning Wheel, that turned fucking narrative into rolls.
>>48059157
Mutants & Masterminds for at least trying (and mostly failing) to make point buy less awful.
Mouse guard, cause it's everywhere.
>>48060205
Okay, let's take the book in hand?
The system takes 190 pages, with all the rules, including the optional ones.
They all are meant to assist and provide structure to roleplaying. I can understand if you don't want to read the tome, not everybody has the time or interest reading trough a brick just to play role playing games.
But for me, it works. It accomplishes what it set out to do. Plus I don't mind reading bricks.
>>48059157
GURPS
A TSR-era edition of D&D
Possibly Savage Worlds
Possibly Apocalypse/Dungeon World
>>48059204
>>48059445
dumb shitposter
>>48060209
>DM challenges the Dwarf player specifically, waving shiny things in front of him and forcing tests of the player's greed, pushing towards the bad end where the dwarf seals himself away in a vault with all his treasures and starves rather than risk letting someone else steal from him.
>Narrative game
It would be, if the player and GM woldn't roll constantly to see how the story is going instead of simply role-playing this and using rolls when they see fit.
The game fucking orders you to prepare a script and then railroad through it with dice. Combined with lenght - sorry, one of the worst game out of the market.
>>48060300
>Possibly Apocalypse/Dungeon World
Possibly kill yourself
>>48060295
>190 pages
>>48060264
>You are a masochist.
Now you're just going full-on "stop liking what I don't like."
>>48060295
>They all are meant to assist and provide structure to roleplaying.
Exactly. I recc'd Burning Wheel because it's an example of a rules-heavy narrative system, which is outside most people's experience range, and so is a good thing to have run through at least briefly if you want to consider yourself well-versed in the medium.
>>48060315
>shitposting possibly intensifies
>>48060300
>Apocalypse/Dungeon World
I recommend making an effort and acquire some fucking taste. Literally Pathfinder of out times when it comes to cancer
>>48059157
Unknown Armies
>>48060349
>Suggests Dungeon World
>Defends Burning Wheel
Next thing you will say 3.5 is the best ed
>>48060336
Hey, all I can say is that I like reading. Especially RPG rules.
I've read the whole brick. Many times. Not just the 190 pages of rules.
>>48059962
>>48059987
Thank ye again.
>>48060015
I had the same reaction when a friend loaned it to me, to be honest.
>>48060300
>Dungeon World
That's one of the last games anyone should even know about
Savage Worlds.
>>48060384
I suggested Apocalypse World, but thanks for playing.
>>48060396
>I had the same reaction when a friend loaned it to me, to be honest.
It is admittedly a huge and intimidating system. But OP didn't ask for a good time beer'n'pretzels system to play with friends, he asked what games he should know to consider himself well-versed in the world of RPGs, and for that, I think Burning Wheel should be on the list.
>>48060300
>Dungeon World
And you complain about shitposters?
>>48060438
>Obscure shit nobody plays
>You should totally read it to be well-versed!
It's not working that way, anon. OP clearly asked about "game-changing" titles and highly influential stuff, not 3rd rate games that at best are knows as "how not to make a game"
But it's cool you have a game to play. Just please stop insisting it's anything else than niche title for very, VERY specific demographic.
>>48060502
Not him but Burning Wheel is "big" at least in Finland.
But then again, it's a country of about 7 million people, so take that how you will.
>>48060438
>he asked what games he should know to consider himself well-versed
He asked for "must-have RPGs that a well-rounded roleplayer should play - or at least read". That's not the same, aspie
Welp, this thread is over. It was interesting up until the shitposters arrived.
>>48060524
Yeah, and Warhammer 2nd ed is big in Czech. Roughtly a thousand people plays it.
>>48060533
This thread started with shitposting
>>48060438
>It is admittedly a huge and intimidating system. But OP didn't ask for a good time beer'n'pretzels system to play with friends, he asked what games he should know to consider himself well-versed in the world of RPGs, and for that, I think Burning Wheel should be on the list.
Fair enough, not everything worthwhile is easy.
If I had to pick 10 games worth playing just to understand RPGs, I'd choose:
>Shadowrun
>Call of Cthulhu
>Traveller
>World of Darkness
>Unknown Armies
>Feng Shui
>Star Wars (FFG)
>Savage Worlds
>GURPS Transhuman Space
>Apocalypse World
>>48060533
It's just Virt doing his usual stupid stuff. Ignore him and it'll be fine.
This thread isn't about discussing the merit of each and every system. It's supposed to be a list of lists and that's it.
>>48059157
Shadowrun
Traveller
Something by White Wolf
FATE
Call of Cthulhu
Paranoia
Warhammer
Maid
Mutants&Masterminds
>>48060550
>Yeah, and Warhammer 2nd ed is big in Czech. Roughtly a thousand people plays it.
As far as I understood, that's ok.
We all are from different places, so our opinions of what RPGs are important should differ.
>>48060558
>Virt
As far as everyone is concerned, Virt ceased showing up roughtly half a year ago. But legacy lives and everyone is paranoid.
Since it's July, I would rather suggest summer as an excuse for people that don't suit your own tastes.
>>48060524
>Big in Finland
Wow, that totally makes it one of the most influential games that were created for past 30 years
>>48060558
>It's just Virt doing his usual stupid stuff.
Yeah, I've noticed him back, posting his same stupid opinions again. (And I don't just mean "le dungeon world is shit", I mean weirdly specific ones I've only ever heard him spout)
Can't the mods just talk to his ISP's abuse department? That's what we do on IRC. Most ISPs take it pretty seriously when an IRC network threatens to k-line them, I can't imagine how they'd feel if 4chan did so.
>>48060550
Warhammer 2nd ed is big pretty much anywhere in central-eastern Europe. It was top RPG in Poland until D&D 3.X arrived and was shilled by heavy marketing and popular vidya. It was quite a big community and despite general regress in recent years it still is noticeable.
I know it is also popular in other countries in the area.
So I wouldn't say it is exactly the same tier of "local popularity with no bearing on the global scale".
>>48060635
Yes, in Finland. Context is everything.
>>48060650
>Paranoia continues
Funny how "Virt!" is only a thing during American daytime hours, while the guy was posting mostly when it was late night/early morning in Clappistan
>>48060579
Why Maid?
>M&M
Good point, the list should include one superhero game, though I would argue that Heroes Unlimited was more popular during its heyday.
>>48060656
Different anon, but the joke was clearly about the scale, mate. I know first-hand how 2nd ed is popular in Poland, but there are less than 5 thousand people playing tabletops in Poland at all. I can fucking list most players from my administrative region, covering roughtly 1/8 of the country. Being popular in country X or Y means shit, when you don't compare it with the number of players in that country.
>>48060795
That;s very pessimistic measure, I think there's more people playing. And even if not it's stillorder of magnitude more than Burning Wheel in Finland
>>48060795
Well, what else would you need us to do?
I personally am not going to start a gallup on what is the worlds most important role playing games, like some scientist.
We're posting on a 4chan thread, so you just have to accept that context. Nobody here knows more than what they personally know from their own countries, and some don't know even that.
If you can't accept that, then I don't know what to say. Sorry that we can't feed you universally correct information?
>>48060759
Dude, Virt is a comic store clerk from the American midwest.
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/43816020/
>>48060853
>That;s very pessimistic measure
That's reality. Polish market for TTRPG pretty much ended when the biggest publisher decided to drop it. There are pretty much no translations since '02. Local companies making games didn't publish anything new since '08 and don't even want to, since there are literally two games that still have support and each in hands of different company, so they've splitted existing market among themselves and enjoy this semi-monopoly with expansions being printed once per few months.
Last year another company published their game and made a MASSIVE scene about selling entire printing within 2 months. You want to know the size of it?
100 books.
Average RPG player in Poland is roughtly 25+ years old and that's only because the market didn't collapse completely with MAG going out of business - otherwise it would be 30+. Fresh blood is non-existing or you end up with caricatural pick-up kids that want to be just like their "Western counterparts", thus painting themselves as super-nerds - while pretty much entire player scene is old-ass metalheads, so they are completely alien.
RPG in Poland is dead and every player in Poland knows that.
On the plus-side, D&D never was big in the country and PF wasn't even published.
>>48060795
>>48060853
>>48060860
Thread isn't about what's the most popular game out there, we can already get that from the Orr Group statistics and other surveys.
Thread is about which RPGs were most important/influential/hobby-changing for any variety of reasons. So even if they had a small player base they may have been very influential on other designers and games, the same way a niche author who only sells a couple thousand books may have strongly influenced Stephen King. Lovecraft (up until the 2000s) comes to mind. Same thing for RPGs.
>>48060968
... only that we are on /tg/ and talking globally, so local, marginal variations mean shit.
>>48060968
>He thinks Lovecraft got only popular in '00s
Call of Cthulhu, the first edition, was published in '81. Which means even back then it had to be big enough to get a game out of it.
>>48060961
>D&D never was big in the country and PF wasn't even published.
Except it was. D&D was hardly existent before 3.X translation come out, but after that it was so heavilly shilled when it come out, with page-sized commercials in vidya magazines and stuff, and the old crpgs still fresh, that it gained ground. I know more players of D&D than other games combined. On any forum or whatever D&D part is the biggest, D&D sold fuckton of supplements, with half of 3.X splatbooks translated and published. PF and later editions didn't gain any ground, but 3.5 is huge, at least as i see it. Though majority of it's players are ultra-bad and don't play anything else, so they hardly contribute to wider community.
>>48061093
Bitch please, nobody but handful of people from Warsaw play 3.X. Which pretty much tells me from where you must be to even know anyone playing D&D.
Silesia rejected D&D roughtly by mid 00s. That leaves Cracov and Tri-City. And Tri-City plays Cyberpunk 2020, so go figure. Lublin's community died out few years ago, since it was always based on students and at this point freshmen no longer play.
>>48061093
>D&D sold fuckton of supplements
Bullshit.
3.X had literally 4 expansion published in Poland. There could be more, but after abysmal 4 ed, WotC literally packed and left.
Want best-seller? That's Neuroshima. NOTHING sold as well as Neuro, mostly because nothing had support for so long. Maybe Warhammer 2nd ed was bigger, but it was pretty much all bootlegs.
>>48060759
Whether it's virt or some other guy trying really hard to be virt, it makes no difference in the end. If it walks like a duck, and it talks like a duck, it doesn't matter what its particular species is, it still shits all the same.
>>48061190
>3.X had literally 4 expansions published in Poland
Yea right http://www.rebel.pl/category.php/1,14/Dungeons-Dragons-3.5.html
http://www.rebel.pl/category.php/1,347/Forgotten-Realms-Zapomniane-Krainy.html
And there were more than that (I used to play this shit actually so I know) they're just out of stocks by now. I explicitly remember having some translated books that aren't listed here physically in my hands.
>but after abysmal 4 ed, WotC literally packed and left
That's true, but I'm not talking about 4e. 4e was dissed at the start, and the 3.5fags were most
>>48061147
I am not from Warsaw, though i know players from there, I share my life between Greater Poland and Lower Silesia. Most RPG groups I see there are D&D.
>>48061000
Still, if you want to consider yourself well-versed in rpgs you also have to know of the more obscure systems. I mean, you wouldn't consider yourself well-read if you only ever bought the biggest bestsellers, right?
>>48061322
*and the 3.5fags were loudest about it
>>48061093
>D&D 3.X
>Big in Poland
You've miss-spelled AD&D, which indeed was big roughtly between '94 and mid '96. EVERYONE was playing it, only to quickly drop it due to realising how badly designed it was as a game when compared with "modern" stuff.
>>48061322
3.5 was printed in 2k copies. They never sold entire stock of it. It's not accessable due to liquidation of Polish branch of the company, not because selling out all of it. I know that, because I did a research about 4 ed sales and WotC leaving the market. 4 ed was printed in 1k copies and it still didn't manage to sell enough to cover the costs of translation (!), while the assumption for 1k copies was based pretty much on "2k was still too many for heavily hyped 3.5".
And just like the other anon said, barely anyone outside Warsaw played D&D nowdays, regardless of ed. With so little copies of the game in the circulation and regional sentiments to different games, D&D simply died out outside the capital. Where fucking 3.5 is played as a "hipster game".
Oh the sweet irony.
>>48059328
>Rifts/Palladium. Seriously, it had a huge following and was quite influential once.
It's amazing to see old gaming magazines where people talk about how awesome Rifts/Palladium is, and how many companies paid for their games to be advertised in issues of Rifter.
And yet through its refusal to evolve with the times, it is now considered a joke.Though now there's that Savage Worlds-Rifts thing coming.
>>48061190
>WotC literally packed and left
So Poland not only can't into space, but also 5 ed?
>>48060315
>>48060373
>>48060419
>>48060449
>one of the most widely discussed yet still controversial RPGs
>not worth reading
Hating something without reading it is the retarded /v/ mentality. An informed decision can only be made by reading and/or playing a system.
>>48061720
Applying your logic, everyone should try crack to see if it's really as bad and addicting as they say.
Only manchild could use this "logic".
>>48060117
Burning wheel is not a narrative game. It's hugely concerned with simulating the logistics of adventuring. It also has a mini-RoS combat system that attempts to simulate the advantages of various weapon types. It has a truck load of skills and takes extreme effort to connect a character's skills to his minutely determined upbringing. All of these are siuilationist and anti-narrativist.
It is a decidedly a simulationist game with very light narrative elements.
>>48060209
Not at all. It's merely attempting to simulate the rules of a different reality. This is how Tolkien dwarves behave, ergo this is what would happen. Roll the dice, let the rules decide.
There are a few light narrative elements to the game, like some of the Artha stuff. But by and large it's a simulationist clockwork that reflects the universe of Tolkien.
>>48061800
>reading a book is the same consuming an illegal drug
wew lad
I see virt is hard at work today.
>>48061896
>Being to dense to get the point
>Focusing on details instead
I see your autism pill apparently is no longer in effect. Why didn't you take your regular dose?
So in terms accessable to such aspie like you:
The game is unplayable, badly designed on so many different levels and the "setting" is a joke. There is no reason to advice people play it, because that's how word-of-mouth informations work - if something is bad and people talk about it being bad, then it's fucking bad. No need to eat shit to see if it's really as bad as they are saying.
And the fact some people are into weird fetishes and eating shit won't make it ok for everyone else.
>>48059157
Traveller.
Something in BRP. Runequest, Call of Cthulhu, whatever.
Warhammer FRP 1st or 2nd edition.
Pendragon.
Amber Diceless.
At least one generic. GURPS is most popular. HERO is good too.
At least one World of Darkness game or Shadowrun.
Something Palladium.
Something in the ballpark of FATE, Fudge, or RISUS.
Apocalypse World or Dungeon World or something along those lines.
Unknown Armies.
For the hell of it, maybe take a look at the One Roll Engine.
>>48062061
>maybe take a look at the One Roll Engine.
What makes ORE influential in the RPG hobby?
For that matter, why Toon?
>>48061956
>to
"too"
>The game is unplayable
False
>badly designed on so many different levels
Debatable, although the formatting is definitely a trainwreck.
>the "setting" is a joke
Easily fixed by using your own.
>if something is bad and people talk about it being bad, then it's fucking bad.
By that logic, Pathfinder is good because people say it's good. But that is not the case.
>>48062086
I don't think I mentioned Toon.
My selections are a mix of the "historical" and the technical. ORE is mostly just mechanically interesting. I guess you could say that seeing what people tinker with on the back end is important for understanding the medium.
If we were just doing "shit that's been popular," everyone has totally forgotten WEG and the d6 system.
>>48062112
>Pathfinder is good because people say it's goo
Only that they don't.
And nice knowing the game can be made playable only if you invest your own time and resources into it. That totally makes it a great title. Ironic, given your own remark about PF, another game that is constantly "fixed" by own playerbase.
Dungeon World is just subpar game.
>>48060773
It doesn't need to be Maid specifically, but I figure the list should include something in that general area of *gestures vaguely* anti-epic stuff that does not involve going on grand adventures, hoarding magic items, conquering planets, etc. Instead there's just a mansion and there's your master and there's fun and drama.
>>48062403
That's a good point.
>>48062403
>*action*
Please no.
The idea of including an 'unepic' game is interesting, though I really can't think of many. Maid, Ryuutama... Only JTTRPG stuff really, though that may say more about me than anything.
Amber Diceless
Apocalypse World
Bunnies and Burrows
Burning Wheel Gold
Chainmail
Dogs in the Vineyard
(Original/BX/Advanced) Dungeon & Dragons
Pathfinder
Tenra Bansho Zero
Ryuutama
Fate
Fiasco
GURPS
World of Darkness (Mage, Vampire, Werewolf)
Whether you like them or not, these are the ones that come to mind as most influential.
>all these shadowrun and cthulhu recommendations
Which versions though?
>>48064010
>Tenra Bansho Zero
Has it influenced western game designers or just Japanese ones? What does it bring to the table, so to speak?
>>48064054
Call of Cthulhu are almost irrelevant, they're 99% compatible and the game has been essentially static in mechanics since it was released.
Shadowrun has changed a lot more but probably v3 is the baseline. Shadowrun is more about world-building, metaplot and huge tables of modifiers, and those have stayed consistent.
>>48064168
*Call of Cthulhu _version_differences_ are almost irrelevant...
>>48064010
>Chainmail
You just can't be serious
>>48060209
>>48060135
>>48060071
>>48061874
>2009 + 7
>still pushing GNS theory
You can stop; it's logically bankrupt and empirically flawed
http://whitehall-paraindustries.blogspot.com/2009/09/flaws-of-gns-part-i-appeal.html
>>48064426
>2016
>Still being retarded
>>48064426
>Here, let me throw this single article that magically changes entire world, cures cancer and renders one of the most prevailing elements of TTRPG design invalid
>>48064426
>2003 + 13
>still posting blogs on 4chan
You can stop; it has zero credibility and can't be treated serious
>>48064585
And why does GNS theory need to be treated seriously?
>>48064602
First of all, there is no such thing like "GNS theory". Second, nobody cares about your blog. Third - lurk more.
I really, really wish summer was just a meme, but amount of idiots that show up in late June and stay till mid August is just unbearable.
>>48064602
It doesn't. It's just an empty buzzword that you keep using, because you read an article that used it too.
>>48064426
>2016
>Posting Gleichman
>>48064426
>Declared GNS dead in 2009
>Declared Dogs in Vineyard financial fiasco
>Declared rise of new trends in game-making
... yeah, none of that happend.
But contrarians found their guru.
>>48059571
Eh I was a hard Science guy who would take classes like this for credits, I wasn't about to add serious dissection of classic literature to my work load when I could take something breezy on comics.
Basically blame the education system requiring shit outside the purview you give a shit about for your degree.
>>48064884
That doesn't address the substance of why his arguments about why GNS is a flawed theory are wrong
This is classic ad hominem
>>48065050
>That doesn't address the substance of why his arguments about why GNS is a flawed theory are wrong
Anon, he made a fuckload of assumptions why GNS theory is wrong, none of them happend in real life, thus robbing him from his own "examples" he used to create his counter-theory.
In short - the guy was wrong in every point he made as a given. And since his entire thing was based on those "strong" points, the theory crumbles
But sure, it's ad hom, because someone is dissing your favourite contrarian.
>>48065050
Because the only person saying GNS theory is wrong is Gleichman. And maybe his supporters. But he's literally the only guy out there that has any beef toward GNS.
And since Gleichman himself is wrong in countless aspects, while all his predictments turned out to be false, his counter-theory has zero grounding in anything.
But most importantly, games are being made with GNS in mind and barely anyone in the business even know Gleichman or his critique of GNS. By his own theory, GNS shouldn't be used, because everyone by '12 should be long swayed on his side by fiasco of '09 games build around wrong philosophy.
>>48060385
He's implying that you're a fucking illiterate retard if you think a 190 page rulebook is even slightly worthy of note as "a brick"
You'd have to be either genuinely retarded, or completely oblivious to a vast swath of universally lauded RPG systems if you don't know that 190 is on the lightest of the light sidesNo I'm not talking about D&D, D&D is literal trash regardless of what the neo-/tg/ anti-anti-D&D fags want to shitpost about all day
>>48065498
>>48060385
note: I know Burning Wheel has 600 pages, just elaborating why the other Anon was shitpoiisting
>>48065050
>Literal list of reasons
>HURR THAT DOESN'T COUNT DURR
>>48064341
>or at least read - to have a good understanding of the world of RPGs?
>In other words, what games would you include in a "RPGs 101" college course?
So you don't think Chainmail is important for historical reasons, regardless of whether you think it's a good game?
>>48061874
Aye, one could say that Burning Wheel Simulates a Narrative
>>48061820
>It's hugely concerned with simulating the logistics of adventuring
That's Torchbearer, not Burning Wheel. And Torchbearer's logistics framework is narrative, not simulationist, with resources being abstracted rather than enumerated.
>>48066435
I left out Chainmail upthread, but you're right, it is important historically, and a mechanically interesting game to boot. It should be treated as more than just a footnote in the history of D&D, IMO.
>>48060607
>>48059157
Shadowrun 4&5
Mutants and masterminds e
Maid
Rogue trader
Changeling the lost
Vampire the Masquerade
Pendragon
Call of Cthulhu
Rune Quest 6
Openquest
Everyone is John
Paranoia
Rolemaster 4
FFG Star Wars
Fate accelerated
Fate core
Savage worlds
Hero
Reign
Song of ice and fire RPG
There.
That's a good variety. Ive tried ask of those except hero and openquest, but I've read the books for them and would like to try them in the future.
You play all those and you'll be well rounded, and you'll have a good idea what you like and dislike and why.
Which will help you find the games you really want to play.
>>48068605
Oh. Missed a few.
D20 Conan
Firefly
Angel (cinematic unisystem) using the magic system from Buffy and Ghosts of Albion
Witchcraft (classic unisystem)
GURPS
>>48059445
But what are we going to argue about. He simply wants a list of what to try/play not what is the best tabletop rpg or some shit like that.
>>48068974
Apparently, we're going to argue about whose opinions about games are stupid and terrible and wrong. Seems like a waste of time to me, but some folks can't get enough of it.
>>48068605
>>48068772
Of these, here is my advice.
Shadowrun 4 I like better than 5 overall, though 5 has slightly better combat rules. They're excellent games.
Maid is a fun one off game. As is everyone is John.
Rogue trader and the like are okay systems, but very tied to the 40k setting, which I don't have much interest in. Additionally, they're all games you play in the imperium, and the imperium is the part of 40k I like the least (I find religious zealots highly irritating, and by extension, the entire game). Simply not for me. It's based on warhammer fantasy RPG 2e, which is basically a crappy Runequest adaptation set in the warhammer fantasy setting (which I enjoy well enough).
Changeling the lost is a good setting in a passable system, but I didn't find it has much replayability. After my first campaign (admittedly one with like, a thousand hours of play) I didn't have any interest in the themes of the setting anymore.
Vampire the Masquerade is a really interesting read, and as a setting an action campaign is fun. As a setting for a clannish political game focused on dialogue and political maneuvering, like most people play it, it's shit.
Pendragon and rq6 are really good. There are a fuck ton of great settings based earth history and myth for brp based games, all easy to convert to your brp of choice or otherwise. Lots of them in gurps, too, fyi.
FFG Star Wars is neat, and pretty fun. It's dice system is a gimmicky though, and it's unfortunately the weakest part of the whole system. It's also much lower powered than any of the movie characters, and the starting power level is pathetic. Give them at least 100 bonus XP to start, and make them spend most of their starting points before the bonus XP on stats.
Paranoia is an interesting one shot but I don't know if I'd want to play a campaign of it.
Rolemaster has some really good ideas for character generation, and the combat is interesting. Level up is really tedious.
>>48069355
>>48069355
D20 Conan is a good martial focused RPG. And of course, gurps does can handle pretty much everything.
>>48068605
>>48068772
Pretty comprehensive list. Why have FATE twice though? And what makes SOIAF so interesting?
>>48069355
What about WEG Star Wars?
>>48070535
>Soif has a cool noble house subgame.
The rest is decent, but not as good as other alternatives.
I mentioned fate twice because core is significantly different than accelerated. I'd try accelerated first, then core.
>>48070795
Read it, but never played it. I'm not so big on the OT era, and I'm not big on the NT script, but like the setting better (midichlorians notwithstanding).
My star wars preferences tend to clone wars or earlier, or significantly after rotj.
Though I have read the generic d6 system books for fantasy and sci Fi, and it seemed decent. But again, I've never played it.
But for the most part the games I didn't additional detail on, I didn't like all that much, but list because lots of other people seem to enjoy them.
>>48059204
>Implying she wouldnt just be the Goblin Queen
>Implying The Jim Henson Company still even uses puppets and not CGI
That said, I wouldnt mind an animated (not fucking cgi) Labyrinth sequel
>>48059328
>>48059376
Both good answers
>>48068473
>Texan
>possibly autistic
>drinks Dr. Pepper
Glau is cute. CUTE!
>>48059643
Someone didn't read the firearms supplement. RuneQuest 6 is generic.
>>48059914
If you want a great intro to Glorantha (one of the most influential settings there is) you can try King of Dragon Pass a try. It's an adventure game set in the world.
>>48059157
I got super excited for a second then remembered Bowie was dead, fuck you op classic blunder
>>48066435
You know, in my country there is a running joke about newfags who start discussion about RPG history with "Yeah, the first game was Chainmail and it was super important". That's the best way to be laughed at by everyone else.
It was neither first nor important. It wasn't even deciding factor for D&D. But somehow in mid 90s it suddenly was glorified into one of the most important games ever, which roughtly corelates with times when TSR was desparate with it's marketing and trying to stay somehow afloat, thus they needed a strong legacy.
20 years later morons like you take that at face value.
>>48070965
But what it would be about? No, really. The entire point of Labyrinth was how the whole tension builds up between them and nothing comes from it. Try thinking in terms of plot and story - what the hell sequel would even be about, especially when she's an adult, grown-up women and given Conelly age - probably already a wife and mother. Her running away from reality would be just off. Especially since the message of the first film was pretty much "Grow the fuck up" and "Cosplaying is bad".Don't take me wrong, I would watch the living shit out of any sequel, but given how many pointless and just stupid sequels and remakes were made in past 10 years, I know this would be a failure
>>48061470
>3.5 was printed in 2k copies. They never sold entire stock of it
Why do you pull such bullshit out of your ass?
How detached from reality are you?
ISA's sale statistics of 3.0 PHB alone, 2002-2005
>3252 4614 3965 1590 13421 5000
that's around 30k copies in first five years
And thats only 3.0. 3.5 may have worse results because of "why should I buy whole revised book when I can just download the errata for free" attitude, but in this context, 2k print series and not entirely sold sound like a utter bullshit.
I don't know how you managed to miss the rise of D&D but well, it is there, fuckton of people play it. I live in 60k shithole of a town and I met 3 unrelated D&D groups. In Wroclaw main (and i think only) RPG "club", while playing lot of different shit, was started around, and i think still is centered around, D&D 3.X
>>48072942
>2k print series and not entirely sold sound like a utter bullshi
Differen anon, but open ANY Polish edition of any D&D book and check the size of printing, since everyone is obligated by law to show how big the print was. The part about low sales still might be a bullshit, but the scale of printing really was that small.
If we are talking about the same group from Wrocław (which I doubt) they've started in '91 with German version of Warhammer 2nd ed.
>>48072942
>In Wroclaw main RPG "club" was started around, and i think still is centered around, D&D 3.X
As a guy from Wrocław myself I call bullshit on this. The only people who indeed played 3.X were guys who were high-schoolers when it came out. So roughtly a bunch of 20 guys. Half of them don't even play tabletops anymore.
Just like the other anon noted, Wrocław scene was started with German copy of WFRP, many years before 3.X was even written
>>48073023
I still have two D&D books at home and I checked them, the size of printing was not stated everywhere. I even downloaded PHB scans right now to check - and there is still nothing. While the numbers I provided are supposed be official ISA's data.
Judging from all I saw - groups I've met or are aware of, activity on forums, those sale sizes, D&D is BIG here. I don't think it is a good thing, I actually believe that spread of this cancer is one of main factors responsible for decline of RPGs in Poland, but it's a fact.
>>48073089
I'm talking about the group of (IDK if he leads it or is just some kind of prominent member) an insufferable faggot who calls himself "Kamulec".
I think i know where you problem is. You think that only RPGers in Poland is the "old guard" from 90s, and fail to notice the new people who got into it later, for some reason believing that they are just a small insignificant, bunch. Well, news for you are - it is totally untrue. That's actually lot of people. The fact that they hardly interact with the old guys don't mean they don't exist.
So, answer to the question "where are muh fresh blood in the hobby?" is basically - They're playing their fucking D&D.
>>48073023
What dark places of the net you hang in?
It's easier to find players for Shadowrun (barely published 2 ed in late 90s) and GURPS (no Polish version) than a squad for D&D. And if someone is playing D&D, then it will be most likely some old nostalgic clique of 40-something former metalheads using ADD. "Kids", or rather players below 30, usually play Polish games, making Neuroshima and Monastyr really popular, followed by Wolsung. Games that don't have translation are pretty much avoided and those with translations are usually played on principle "my older brother used to play it when I was a teen, so it's the only game I know and own".
The scene is dying. Or rather is completely dead, but still not everyone realised that. And D&D being popular is as big bullshit as not selling. It's just a foot-note in history, a fad from mid 00s that died with entire scene.
And the scene is dead, because MAG Publishing House left the business in '03, focusing solely on fantasy literature.
>>48073169
>possibly bigest Polish forum about RPGs, or at least one of the biggest
But yes, I guess D&D does not exist here.
>>48073160
>Kamulec
My fucking sides... I mean they make Szyndler look as reasonable and level-headed fella.
And about the whole old and new guard. Just look at the numbers of games on the market, translations, publications and their sales. Then tell me about "fresh blood", if selling 100 copies of Armies of Apocalypse was a massive marketing success.
100 copies.
They can't be called fresh blood if they stick with the game they've hanged with at their start, being teens. They are just different sort of old guards.
I remember when I was playing in my city's culture centre. I could get in each day afternoon and there were always 2-3 other guys playing. By mid 00s, we had to arrange the whole thing, even if still new people were showing up. By '09 we switched the pattern, playing each Wednesday evening and inviting new people to see and try playing. At this point, no new players show up at all, even if the centre is still buzzing with people, so it's not the classic excuse of "baby bust"
There is no fresh blood in any real quantities, making the scene dead and stagnant. Combined with lack of games (last "big" thing was published 5 years ago) and you are in a barren land.
>>48059204
>Conelly is older than he was back then
She's still hot as fuck.
But yeah. You can't have a Labyrinth sequel without Bowie.
>>48073193
What's that? Polter?
>>48073280
>She's still hot as fuck.
I'm not questioning that. At all.
>>48073264
>They can't be called fresh blood if they stick with the game they've hanged with at their start, being teens. They are just different sort of old guards
Well. Call them whatever you like, point is, they exist, ant they aren't just fringe group of few guys but actually large portion of players.
>>48073301
Yep
>>48073193
You forgot mention that part where D&D section is run by classic /tg/ PF drones, so it's 50 guys constantly arguing about nothing among themselves for past ten years. The same fucking people, having the same fucking arguments, over a fucking decade.
Meanwhile the rest uses the forum for meet-ups to play.
>>48059157
I guess, to get a sense of the genre mainstays, after DnD:
Shadowrun
Vampire: The Masquerade
any one of Star Wars and 40K
Call of Cthulhu
To get a feeling for rules heavy vs rules light:
GURPS
Lasers and Feelings
For exposure to unusual game mechanics:
Unknown Armies
Apocalypse World
FATE
Dogs in the Vinyard
and for the purpose of understanding the cultural lexicon:
Traveller
FATAL
>>48073322
I think we are arguing about two completely different things.
My point is how the scene is dead and lacks new players, since the "new" players are already playing for 10+ years
Your point is how the existing scene has a sizable D&D community (at least for Polish standards) based on 3.X
As far as I'm concerned, those are two completely unrelated subjects.
>170 posts
>Ctrl F
>Not a single mention of Twilight 2000
Seriously? What's wrong with you guys? One of the most important tacticool and post-apo games in existence, pretty much a mainstay of the genre and it's not mentioned even once.
>>48073334
I think GURPS should be rather used as an example of toolkit. It's not rule-heavy. It's a LEGO set, where you can connect two blocks and be fine or build an entire structure out of hundreds of blocks.
After all, GURPS Lite is 30 pages long, 1/5 of which is wasted on illustrations
>>48073310
The first erection I ever got was when I saw her in that movie as a kid on TV in a hotel room at Disneyland.
>>48073338
Yeah maybe
But I think it isn't completelly unrelated. D&D boom in erly 00s kind of wasted a sizeable part of a new generation of players and created a discontinuity within the scene, so that might be one reasons of the decline.
And then 4e come out and D&D also died because 3.X drones "BUT IT'S NOT REAL D&D" attitude.
>>48073378
>It's not rule-heavy. It's a LEGO set
Please stop making that argument. Every GURPS fan says that. It's barely true, because it requires a significant understanding of the system and its complexity to know how to break it down properly, and doing so requires more effort than a lot of entire systems require to run. And it's barely relevant, because no matter how much you trim it down, it's still on the rules heavy side of games compared to most rpgs out there.
GURPS is complicated. That doesn't mean it's bad. It isn't something you need to apologize for or hedge or argue about. That's just the type of system it is.
>>48073415
>It's barely true, because it requires a significant understanding of the system and its complexity to know how to break it down properly, and doing so requires more effort than a lot of entire systems require to run
Two words
GURPS Lite
Then try bullshit how complex the game is and how it requires hundreds of hours and supplements to work. It's really funny how people still insist you need anything more than Lite to run games. I know groups that are playing Lite for years and didn't even move for Basic Set, because they don't feel like it, while aspies like you instantly jump to "HURR IT"S RULE-HEAVY AND TAKES SHITLOAD OF READING DURR".
>GURPS is complicated
Best proof you never even touched the game
>>48073408
As already mentioned by different anon, the main "culprit" was MAG backing out suddenly from RPG market. Since they were dominant publisher and almost monopolistic when it comes to translations, their removal meant there was all out of sudden a huge gap to fill... and no other company had resources to even try and grab that as an opportunity, since pretty much everyone else was a micro-business below 10 employees.
Then 3.X came out and it indeed took most of fresh players and indoctrinated them from the start that D&D is the best and everything else is just bad and shouldn't be tried.
Then all the Polish games flopped due to unrealistic printed supply and inflated targets for sales, killing pretty much every publisher in the process.
Then MMORPGs other than Ultima Online gained traction.
By mid '00s RPG market suddently grinded into a halt. But D&D wasn't the only reason for that. Sure, it tainted the scene forever. Sure, it killed it for good few years later with 4 ed, but at that point the scene was in heavy decline already.
It's funny with D&D, really. The game never was popular, then massive marketing and shilling caused inflated sales of 3.X, then WotC... went out of Poland. The literally came in, kicked the doors out and left.
>>48073415
>GURPS is complicated
Not if you read it, instead of sprouting memes
>>48073365
>One of the most important tacticool and post-apo games in existence, pretty much a mainstay of the genre
What's it competing with? Phoenix Command?
>not mentioned even once
Because it died with GDW, and T2K13 was DoA.
>>48073541
Anon, this is a historical thread. And the other anon mentioned Twilight 2000. Nobody cares where the game is now. It's about knowing the games to be able to call yourself well-versed in RPGs and know it's influence. And as such, knowing Twilight 2000 is important.
Not to mention people still play it en masse, mostly the 2.2 ed
>>48073642
The point was, nobody mentioned it because it's been OOP for 20 years.
What did T2K do that was influential to the modern scene, anyway?
>>48073679
People mentioned fucking CHAINMAIL and you have a problem with Twilight 2000. Get a grip of yourself
>>48073496
GURPS is bland, though.
>>48073728
Can you persuade me that T2K did more for the RPG scene than Chainmail?
>>48059474
The implication that D&D is a must-have RPG that a well-rounded roleplayer should play is bait enough.
>>48073744
More memes, please
>>48073744
>2016
>Complaining about generic system being bland
It's like you don't even understand what generic games are for
>>48059157
11/10 would watch
... and then you realise Bowie is dead
>>48059157
Lasers and Feelings
KULT
Noumenon
Nobilis
In Nomine
>>48059157
>On understanding the basic flow of a game session and how GM-player interactions work
Dungeon World
>On condensing games and figuring out how to cut wheat from chaff in everything from scene buildup
Tenra Banshou Zero
![d453eb72d7[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/31TeCgp.jpg "d453eb72d7[1].jpg")
>>48060223
Well, it is. Sorry your GM is shit. That is literally how any skill roll works in the game.
>>48076885
>On condensing games and figuring out how to cut wheat from chaff in everything from scene buildup to character development*
Also, reading this thread made me remember a game literally everyone needs to play.
>On recognizing how amazing a game can be where the dice fall where they may and you simply revel in the chaos they sow, because at the end of the day, it's just a silly game
Maid RPG
>>48076918
>Still lurking this thread
>Still lying
>>48073679
It didn't have to be influential for modern scene. It was instead very influential for all sorts of post-apo, early cyberpunk and pretty much ALL tacticool games that were ever made. It was first and pretty well-done at that military game back in the day, paving a road for non-fantasy, close-to-reality modern setting games. Something that sounds obvious right now, but in mid '84 that was a shocker and completely new quality.
So here goes your "how it was influential" retarded question. The game pretty much shaped military games and was dominant ifluence in post-apo pretty much till late 90s.
>>48077325
>lying
>A picture taken directly from the rulebook
Here's your (You)
>>48077342
It's become pretty clear that I Hate Burning Wheel anon is full of shit.
>>48077342
>Still not getting the point
>>48077550
>The point is my GM ran the game literally and objectively incorrectly and I'm going to blame the system for it because autism
>>48077626
This happens a lot on /tg/. It's weird, really.
>>48059157
>A new Labyrinth movie.
>No Bowie
Not sure how I feel about this.
>>48062403
>He doesn't hoards magic items and conquers planets in Maid
>>48077626
>Implying any game was being played at all
>Implying it's all fault of some imaginary GM
>Implying the game is not just simulationist quagmire
Oh, and one more
>Inb4 HURR YOU NEVER PLAYED THE GAME HOW CAN YOU KNOW DURR
I read that slog of the book. It's subpar design of crunch that is overobsessed with complicating things for the sake of it.
>>48062347
Were you two talking about AW?
Because it's perfectly playable and the fact it has no setting is absolutely not a problem in my eyes. OD&D had no setting, as did Classic Traveller, and a bunch of other, both modern and old.
>>48077875
>I read the book but didn't read any of the rules, as shown by >>48060223 and >>48076918
>I've never played it but see fit to judge how it plays
>I'm being proven wrong on every actual point I deign to make in between my autistic GNS buzzword tirades but I'm going to keep posting anyway
Alright, go ahead and get your last word in fampai. We're done here.
>>48077952
Last word
>>48072812
>It wasn't even deciding factor
Wait, wasn't the very first iteration of D&D some kind of add-on for Chainmail?
>>48077952
>proven wrong on every actual point
If that's what you believe...
>>48078021
Yes.
>>48078021
Not really. They saw Chainmail, they said "Cool" and then spun a game on their own out of it. Calling Chainmail direct basis for D&D is like saying all tabletops are based on Prussian Kriegsspiel. They share broad genre, but that's all.
>>48078090
>Implying all battle tabletops aren't just copies of Kriegsspiel
>>48078021
OD&D was made to work with Chainmail, but also had its own "alternate" combat system you could use, which was eventually expanded into the D&D combat we know today.
>>48078090
>They saw Chainmail, they said "Cool" and then spun a game on their own out of it.
So Gygax saw the game he co-wrote and said "cool!" and made a spin-off on his own? Are you high?
Gygax and Arneson began work on OD&D when Gygax showed Chainmail to Arneson, and they mashed it together with what Arneson was doing in his Blackmoor campaign, along with what Gygax then did in his Greyhawk campaign.
>>48078090
What the fuck are you talking about?
>>48078129
>2016
>There are still people who consider Gygax the father of the game
But at least you mentioned Ameson, which is still SOME progress over how things were going a decade ago.
>>48077325
Bruh I'm not the anon you were talking to and I'm not saying Twilight 2000 isn't a great game but in mid '84 Behind Enemy Lines had been out for two years, and if you count games that weren't conceived as gritty modern military stuff but could be used for it, Traveller had been around since '77.
>This entire thread
>>48078190
I don't even know what you're on about. Are you implying Gygax had nothing to do with it? Without him we'd have a jumble of unusable notes from Arneson, a guy who, while being a fantastic DM and ideas man, never really finished a project in his entire career.
>>48078510
I'm implying the 0D&D was a brainchild of the two. Meanwhile Arneson is barely mentioned by anyone. So it's not about questioning Gygax involvement, but calling people out on forgetting/diminishing Ameson's effort.
Literally the moment he left, things went to shit.
>>48078561
>I'm implying the 0D&D was a brainchild of the two.
It absolutely was.
>Meanwhile Arneson is barely mentioned by anyone.
Yeah, and that's a shame, but you should be careful not to overstate Arneson's contribution, either.
>Literally the moment he left, things went to shit.
I really don't agree. Basic D&D was better than OD&D in almost every way. It's a shame how Gygax and co. pushed Arneson out, but to be fair, Arneson didn't really DO anything at TSR.
The guy could run games like nobody's business, but to get Temple of the Frog out for publication they had to have other people take Arneson's notes and finish them, polish them, and put them all together. Arneson could spend years supposedly working on a project and have nothing to show for it.
The Blackmoor setting book was never finished, and all we ever got was The First Fantasy Campaign, which was again just a bunch of random notes that doesn't explain much.
I love Arneson, but the guy was a thinker, not a doer.
Things only really went to shit when Gygax was pushed out by the Blumes.
>>48059157
Aside from all the good suggestions here, I would also try and look at those systems that take the place of D&D in countries where it never took hold. In Germany for example, D&D has no relevance at all. Instead "Das Schwarze Auge"/"The Black Eye" dominates all. It would be interesting in that the system was majorly redesigned relatively often. It would be a good lesson in trying to identify how to develop an rpg system further because it has been pulled in all sorts of different directions throughout it's history.
Especially the last two editions would be interesting, as the last edition was extremely crunchy and simulationist and made character creation extremely complex and almost required a character creation programm, but was beloved anyways.
The current edition has been very positively received because it cut down the cruft and simplifyed a lot of things without loosig too much depth and still managed to keep the DSA/TBE feeling.
Today it uses a sort of D20 system, where you allways have three consecutive d20 rolls with a target number against the three base attributes that you would consider most relevant as step 1,2,3, e.g. courage to make a jump, dex to jump far enaugh, dex to make the landing. If you fail, you know why you failed. That's the gist of it.
This mechanic is the base of the system and used for almost all rolls. So it is roll heavy, but you allways know how and why your rolls fail or succeede
Also, the system does not have as much of a problem with quadratic wizards as D&D
It is also interesting in that the system is married and pushed by it's core setting, "Aventurien" which is insanely detailed, VAST, and continously developed in monthly issues since 1989. It dominates RP in Germany even more than the system, because a lot of people play the setting with universal systems
Tl;dr,it's historically interesting, has an unusual core mechanic, and is a crunchy, simulationist system played by rp heavy people instead of powergamers
>>48078687
>Inb4 some sperg comes to claim D&D is big in Germany and was and is very revelant
>>48073365
>American game about Americans being trapped in hell on Earth
>For better immersion, everything is measured in metric
>>48078687
While we're on the subject of non-anglo/american games, I think In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas is worth mentioning. It's the most well-known french RPG and one of the few that has been translated to english. Well, it should have been, but instead it was transformed into Steve Jackson's In Nomine, which has a bad reputation but I can't tell since I haven't read it.
The rules aren't particularly original and changed quite a lot over several editions, but all of them had you roll 3d6 as the base roll and if you get 111 or 666 God's or Satan's will is involved somehow. It can be good or bad, depending on if you play angels or demons and if your boss is pissed or in a good mood.
Also noteworthy is Bitume, a Mad-Max-esque post-apoc game by the same creator. I have never read it because it's very hard to find a copy, but everybody I've met who have played it have very fond memory of the game, while admiting the rules were somewhat clunky. What is was apparently good at was stupidly lethal combat, reflecting the world's craziness and handling vehicular combat.
>>48059445
Are you so fucking deep in your little world apart from civilized society that you can't fathom the possibility of someone not being aware that this board hates D&D? People who don't know about traditional games are only aware of D&D, you do realize that don't you? They think it's the standard.
I swear to god there is nothing worse than an aggressive nerd
>>48078736
Nobody could be that delusional, at least I hope.
D&D is of couse known, but mostly trough bad nerd bashing in importet american media. A lot of people with no experience have only ever heard of D&D that way, but as soon as you start to actually look into it, you will notice that more than half the guys playing rpgs in germany either play DSA/TBE or use it's setting with a generic system.
I'm literaly the only GM I know that has never run a session of DSA/TBE and even I DMed two campaigns in Aventurien.
Because it is so dominant and has been for more than two decades, all the newbies are drawn into it, because it is what you can find most groups for and will be exposed to first. Because germany has a diffrent rpg culture than america and because DSA/TBE draws in the kind of people that would play D&D and teaches them the DSA way, there is simply no market for D&D. I don't know a single person who has ever played it, and I have played all kinds of shit with all kinds of people.
I would wonder where all those mystical D&D people come from and ask how they would have been able to hide behind all the people that have played Savage Worlds, GURPS, FATE, Fiasko, SW:EotE, etc. with me.
>>48078970
>Americans who don't know about traditional games are only aware of D&D
Here, FTFY.
For rest of the world, TTRPG doesn't exist AT ALL, not even as D&D
>>48079248
>Nobody could be that delusional, at least I hope
We already had here spergs claiming Poland is dominated by D&D, so...
>>48076241
>>48077718
>>A new Labyrinth movie.
>>No Bowie
Guys, you do realize Bowie's been digitized by Google already, right? He can be resurrected ex nihilo in CGI and it'll still work.
>>48080672
Conelly being molested by CGI is not the same as Conelly being molested by Bowie.
>>48059667
I don't care if the game is good, but that sheet makes me pity anyone who has to fill that ever.
>>48059157
Nothing, dnd is all you need
>>48080672
Bowie's digitized junk isn't going to burn away the virginity of every young girl who watches it.
>>48059157
[current D&D assumed]
Pre WotC D&D: OD&D, Basic, 1e or 2e
Some flavor of Traveller.
At least 1 oWoD game
At least 1 nWoD gameGURPS
One newish, in-print game, picked off the shelf at random.
One old obscure game from the "used" shelf at your FLGSYour shitty homebrew.{/spoiler]
>>48084725
You forgot to add something about superiority of 3.X and PF over the rest
